Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 18th Mar 2010 23:21 UTC
Legal Finally - after a few weeks, HTC has actually officially issued a statement regarding the patent infringement lawsuit Apple has thrown towards the Taiwanese phone maker. As you probably already anticipated, HTC states it will fully defend itself against Apple. It's on, it's on.
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v I would have liked to also see
by 1other1 on Fri 19th Mar 2010 00:45 UTC
RE: I would have liked to also see
by lemur2 on Fri 19th Mar 2010 01:21 UTC in reply to "I would have liked to also see"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

I know a great deal of the readers on this site don't like patents and think of any company that enforces them is the evil... but keep in mind that HTC will be using their patent portfolio as their defense. This means that any advocacy of one over the other in this case is simply fanboyism.


The fact that Apple has some patents granted by the USPTO most emphatically does not mean that this is Apples technology. Most places do not have software patents, it is only the US where this madness has got out of hand.

So I passionately disagree with you here. It is a perfectly valid response for anyone accused of "stealing" the technology that they have laboriously implemented in their products to respond with a patent retaliation of their own. Just because of an insane out-of-control madness in the USPTO does not mean there is any "justice" on Apple's part here.

In fact, I would encourage HTC to join the OIN and the Patent Commons organistations, and call in legal help from the Linux Foundation and from Google, and hit Apple with an absolute boatload of counter-claims.

Joining the OIN worked for TomTom. Microsoft's campaign against TomTom was history within a few days after TomTom joined the OIN.

http://blogs.computerworld.com/tomtom_gets_allies_in_microsoft_linu...

http://blog.internetnews.com/skerner/2009/03/tomtom-gets-linux-help...

http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=3849

Edited 2010-03-19 01:25 UTC

Reply Score: 6

ariarinen Member since:
2009-02-07

Well HTC are already a member of RPX so it would not make much sense to join an other group at this point.

Reply Score: 1

satsujinka Member since:
2010-03-11

However, they are still invalid if they are about things considered rudimentary or basic. They are also invalid if there's prior art, which is almost certainly the case for Apple's touchscreen patents.

Reply Score: 3

darknexus Member since:
2008-07-15

However, they are still invalid if they are about things considered rudimentary or basic. They are also invalid if there's prior art, which is almost certainly the case for Apple's touchscreen patents.

Didn't stop them approving those patents though. I think, personally, that the USPTO has the philosophy of "approve everything, and if there's a problem spend buttloads of cash in court to straighten it out." They're lazy, simple as that.

Reply Score: 6

JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

Didn't stop them approving those patents though. I think, personally, that the USPTO has the philosophy of "approve everything, and if there's a problem spend buttloads of cash in court to straighten it out." They're lazy, simple as that.


I believe that is how they are financed. If they don't approve, they don't get the income.

Reply Score: 2

ariarinen Member since:
2009-02-07


I believe that is how they are financed. If they don't approve, they don't get the income.

Well they get paid even if they don't approve the patent application, but they receive much more if they approve from yearly fees.

I believe that they are, under staffed to handle the amount of patent applications they receive.

Reply Score: 1

RE: I would have liked to also see
by SReilly on Fri 19th Mar 2010 03:49 UTC in reply to "I would have liked to also see"
SReilly Member since:
2006-12-28

I'm aware that what I'm about to say could be taken as offensive so vote me down but frankly, the following line...

... but keep in mind that HTC will be using their patent portfolio as their defense. This means that any advocacy of one over the other in this case is simply fanboyism.

...has got to be some of the fuzziest logic I've heard in a long time. Seriously, using patents to defend one's self in a patent lawsuit is not only completely understandable, even to people for whom software patents make no sense, but is desirable. I would like to see companies compete on the strength of their product portfolio. If one company starts using patents as a means of undermining this competition then hit them with all the patents you have because frankly they deserve to get a good kick in the fork.

HTC did not instigate this squabble even though Apple are the newcomer on the smart-phone scene. HTC where perfectly happy to compete on the basis of merit, something companies in the rest of the world have to do without the recourse of running to a court of law once their market share is being threatened.

Reply Score: 9

RE: I would have liked to also see
by merkoth on Fri 19th Mar 2010 04:40 UTC in reply to "I would have liked to also see"
merkoth Member since:
2006-09-22


*snip*

I know a great deal of the readers on this site don't like patents and think of any company that enforces them is the evil... but keep in mind that HTC will be using their patent portfolio as their defense. This means that any advocacy of one over the other in this case is simply fanboyism.

*snip*


You don't need them as defense if no one can use them to attack you. It's that simple. I'm not entirely against patents themselves, I'm just against patenting crap and then using that crap to put competitors out of bussiness. It's very sad that, even if you don't plan to use them as a weapon, you still have to patent the hell out of your products just in case any douche feels your product is too dangerous / competitive.

Reply Score: 7

Gone fishing Member since:
2006-02-22

Apple the company who's founding members glorify steeling the ideas of other (because it was cool in the 70s), but on the flimsiest excuse, with the weakest software patents with obvious prior art and when ever they feel that their overpriced products are threatened rush to court.

Apple's behaviour is contemptible.

Reply Score: 7

RE: I would have liked to also see
by Fransexy on Fri 19th Mar 2010 07:59 UTC in reply to "I would have liked to also see"
Fransexy Member since:
2005-07-29

Are you an Apple employe?

Reply Score: 3

RE: I would have liked to also see
by JAlexoid on Fri 19th Mar 2010 09:10 UTC in reply to "I would have liked to also see"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

A: This is an opinion forum and not a legal discussion. So disagreeing with US patent system and particular patents is an absolutely valid topic, even keeping in mind that there are a lot of perfectly valid patents.

B: This is a followup article. The statement that Apple will defend it's IP was in the original article, if you like to see it nothing is standing in your way of opening that article and reading it again.

Reply Score: 3

RE: I would have liked to also see
by Laurence on Fri 19th Mar 2010 09:44 UTC in reply to "I would have liked to also see"
Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26

I would have liked to also see quotes from Apple stating that they too would like to defend themselves from those that steal their patents.

We know this site's personal feelings on Apple, patents and even more directly Apple's patents however, which means there was no chance of that ever making it into the article.

I know a great deal of the readers on this site don't like patents and think of any company that enforces them is the evil... but keep in mind that HTC will be using their patent portfolio as their defense. This means that any advocacy of one over the other in this case is simply fanboyism.

It's important to illustrate that just because you disagree with patents in general or even ownership of the specific patents in question doesn't in any way mean that they are invalid.

Any discussion moving forward should keep this in mind. .



You're forgetting one thing - Thom has already reported on Apple's point of view in a previous article.

While it would have been helpful for him to hyperlink to that article, repeating what has already been reported would have been pointless.

furthermore, some of your comments (particularly the part where you openly accused Thom of anti-Apple fanboyism) is just going to provoke arguments instead of a balanced mature discussion like you said you wanted.

Reply Score: 4

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Don't bother - he is a known troll on OSNews who, by now, has about 15 accounts on OSNews. At one point, he used like 8 of them simultaneously to mod down anti-Apple comments, and promote pro-Apple ones.

He's the only case of astroturfing we've ever had. We had people consistently modding down one other specific user, but never something like this. It'sad, since we have enough Apple fans on this board to defend Apple without him running around like an idiot.

Reply Score: 4

SReilly Member since:
2006-12-28

Lol! Wow, I had no idea, thanks for pointing that out. Any hope in banning him/her/it?

Reply Score: 3

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Oh already taken care of.

Reply Score: 2

Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26

Don't bother - he is a known troll on OSNews who, by now, has about 15 accounts on OSNews. At one point, he used like 8 of them simultaneously to mod down anti-Apple comments, and promote pro-Apple ones.

He's the only case of astroturfing we've ever had. We had people consistently modding down one other specific user, but never something like this. It'sad, since we have enough Apple fans on this board to defend Apple without him running around like an idiot.


Thanks for the heads up.

I was chuckling to myself when reading his comments as I recall you mentioning that you own an iPhone.

In fact -and going further off topic- it's quite amusing (though no doubt frustrating for you) how one week you'll be accused of being an Apple hater then the next you week you'll be branded a Microsoft hater. Heck, I've even read a post or two from people complaining that you must hate open source as you don't elevate every distro update to the front page!

I've often toyed with the idea of starting up a similar new site come blog (as I'm an opinionated b*****d) but I just don't think I could handle the additional commitment (drain on time et al) and the abuse that follows. So thank God someone else does.

Edited 2010-03-19 10:10 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RawMustard Member since:
2005-10-10

We know this site's personal feelings on Apple

It just shows a majority of readers on this site live by a higher code of ethics and morals than the low life corporation you're talking about, so what?
where do you stand in this regard?

Reply Score: 5

Well Well Patent infringement! Hmm
by ritesh_nair on Fri 19th Mar 2010 07:07 UTC
ritesh_nair
Member since:
2007-03-22

If i say that my friend had and Imate Jasjar way back then I would think that mobile touch based computing was quite an area HTC was already using. Gesture patent is bullshit. Anyone with a software would be able to write a program infact there were programs on windows that actually could do actions via gestures. GSM well much is nokia, and wait a second if touch was already a being used and then they call gesture things as patent then I want to know a few things from Steve:

1) I want to hang a .32 holstered to my boxers. I hope that is not patented (if i carry my HTC along with it) who knows maybe you have patented wearing boxers with an iphone or wearing a holstered .32 with boxers and a mobile device is patented. (god bless America, i think this can be done).

2) I want to use the phone from HTC with my left hand while i sip coffee holding the cup in my right hand is that patented with an Iphone.

Lots more but I will be flamed to kingdom come

Edited 2010-03-19 07:09 UTC

Reply Score: 1

The problem one has
by alcibiades on Fri 19th Mar 2010 09:38 UTC
alcibiades
Member since:
2005-10-12

Maybe the problem people have with this is the way Apple behaves?

The problem is not that Apple has patents. All companies do. The problem is not that Apple wants to protect and profit from them. All companies do.

The problem comes when Apple wants to use its patents and its legal department to lock in and exploit and control.

For example, the DRM in iTunes. Of course they were entitled to do the R&D, and to get returns from it. But that is not what they wanted. What they wanted was to refuse to license, so as stop any other vendors playing the iTunes DRM'd tracks on their players, so as to get a lock on player, store and purchase and management software.

If Apple were a company that was not so fixated on producing an exclusive walled garden in which you're tied to Apple solutions to the maximum extent possible, people would not react so badly to it. But this is how they are, its the old saga of proprietary connectors, locking the software to hardware....etc

This is what people object to. Not the fact that they want a fair return on their R&D, the fact that they want to make this return by monopolizing any market they are in to the max they can manage. It is actually worse than Microsoft, because its about all three of hardware, content and applications.

Yes, I know, don't bother saying it. If you do not like it do not buy it. I don't.

Reply Score: 4

Tear em a new one!
by RawMustard on Fri 19th Mar 2010 10:39 UTC
RawMustard
Member since:
2005-10-10

I hope HTC tear apple a new one, God knows they deserve everything they get - nuff said.

Reply Score: 4

The only winners...
by bolomkxxviii on Fri 19th Mar 2010 11:11 UTC
bolomkxxviii
Member since:
2006-05-19

The only winners will be the lawyers. Years of litigation will buy many homes, cars, boats and kids educations. We will all pay for it in higher prices of products.

Reply Score: 3

OK, supose Apple wins
by protomank on Fri 19th Mar 2010 12:38 UTC
protomank
Member since:
2006-08-03

So what? You guys in USA will not have Android (as we know it) anymore and will basically have only WIndows Mobile, Apple and Nokia as options.

The rest of the world will have more dispute in technology and will advance faster....

OH WAIT! Sudenly I want that Apple wins!

Seriously, this software patents in USA is absurd considering the type of stuff they approve to be patentable, you are placing the rope around your neck, and the world will just move on without you guys.

Reply Score: 3

RE: OK, supose Apple wins
by Ikshaar on Fri 19th Mar 2010 13:26 UTC in reply to "OK, supose Apple wins"
Ikshaar Member since:
2005-07-14

So what? You guys in USA will not have Android (as we know it) anymore and will basically have only WIndows Mobile, Apple and Nokia as options.


... if Android would fail in the US market (which won't happen) because Apple sue to death all phone makers using it, nobody else would have it. Not even you.. wherever you are.

Edited 2010-03-19 13:30 UTC

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: OK, supose Apple wins
by SReilly on Fri 19th Mar 2010 14:38 UTC in reply to "RE: OK, supose Apple wins"
SReilly Member since:
2006-12-28

Lol! I'm sorry, what? The European market is far larger than the US, not to mention south-east Asia. It'd be a shame for HTC to have to stop producing phones for the US but the US is far from being the world, mate.

Wow. Just, wow!

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: OK, supose Apple wins
by lemur2 on Fri 19th Mar 2010 15:28 UTC in reply to "RE: OK, supose Apple wins"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

... if Android would fail in the US market (which won't happen) because Apple sue to death all phone makers using it, nobody else would have it. Not even you.. wherever you are.


A more likely outcome is that a limited choice of hyper-expensive proprietary software would have the US market, and the sane rest of the world uses open source. FOSS would become virtually illegal in the US, and the only viable option everywhere else.

Costs of doing business in the US would become sky high because of incessant legal squabbling, and actually come down everywhere else. The US will withdraw within itself, its products would be laughably expensive everywhere else, and therefore ignored, so the US would choke under hyper-inflation, its currency would become useless everywhere else, and the US would be unable to afford food from anywhere else.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: OK, supose Apple wins
by ssa2204 on Sat 20th Mar 2010 00:49 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: OK, supose Apple wins"
ssa2204 Member since:
2006-04-22

"... if Android would fail in the US market (which won't happen) because Apple sue to death all phone makers using it, nobody else would have it. Not even you.. wherever you are.


A more likely outcome is that a limited choice of hyper-expensive proprietary software would have the US market, and the sane rest of the world uses open source. FOSS would become virtually illegal in the US, and the only viable option everywhere else.

Costs of doing business in the US would become sky high because of incessant legal squabbling, and actually come down everywhere else. The US will withdraw within itself, its products would be laughably expensive everywhere else, and therefore ignored, so the US would choke under hyper-inflation, its currency would become useless everywhere else, and the US would be unable to afford food from anywhere else.
"

FYI, US exports, not imports food. You couldn't even look that one up on Wiki? All that will really happen in this deluded fantasy is Americans won't be able to purchase lead filled toys from China lol.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: OK, supose Apple wins
by lemur2 on Sat 20th Mar 2010 12:43 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: OK, supose Apple wins"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

FYI, US exports, not imports food. You couldn't even look that one up on Wiki? All that will really happen in this deluded fantasy is Americans won't be able to purchase lead filled toys from China lol.


If the US continues with behavior about its alleged "IP" similar to the behaviour that Monsanto is infamous for, as Obama has promised it will do, then US won't export food for long.

US products are already very much "on the nose" internationally. I am aware of some major contracts for aircraft, for example, that have entirely been awarded on the criteria "as long as it doesn't contain an US-made parts".

As the US begins to insist more and more on being paid license fees, especially for obvious ideas such as Apple are pushing against HTC right now, than more and more no one (i) internationally will touch US-made products with a ten-foot barge pole.

"Not made in the US"
will become a major selling point.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: OK, supose Apple wins
by ssa2204 on Sun 21st Mar 2010 03:29 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: OK, supose Apple wins"
ssa2204 Member since:
2006-04-22

What color is the sky in your world?

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: OK, supose Apple wins
by ariarinen on Sun 21st Mar 2010 08:05 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: OK, supose Apple wins"
ariarinen Member since:
2009-02-07


US products are already very much "on the nose" internationally. I am aware of some major contracts for aircraft, for example, that have entirely been awarded on the criteria "as long as it doesn't contain an US-made parts".
Well regarding aircrafts its a completely different reason why they don't want US made parts and that's Weapons export licences (fighter and other military hardware and spear-parts). And that criteria limits their choice to Russian and Chinese and France aircrafts.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: OK, supose Apple wins
by lemur2 on Sun 21st Mar 2010 22:53 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: OK, supose Apple wins"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

" US products are already very much "on the nose" internationally. I am aware of some major contracts for aircraft, for example, that have entirely been awarded on the criteria "as long as it doesn't contain an US-made parts".
Well regarding aircrafts its a completely different reason why they don't want US made parts and that's Weapons export licences (fighter and other military hardware and spear-parts). And that criteria limits their choice to Russian and Chinese and France aircrafts. "

My example was for an aircraft design which was in fact of European origin. The non-European customers got to assemble most of the fleet in their own country. They chose it because the Americans are unbelieveably precious about their alleged IP, and that attitude flies in the face of the sovreignity of other nations.

As the Americans steadily become more and more precious about alleged IP, this type of thing will happen more and more often.

Edited 2010-03-21 22:57 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: OK, supose Apple wins
by ariarinen on Mon 22nd Mar 2010 07:23 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: OK, supose Apple wins"
ariarinen Member since:
2009-02-07


My example was for an aircraft design which was in fact of European origin. The non-European customers got to assemble most of the fleet in their own country. They chose it because the Americans are unbelieveably precious about their alleged IP, and that attitude flies in the face of the sovreignity of other nations.

As the Americans steadily become more and more precious about alleged IP, this type of thing will happen more and more often.
Could it be Saab 37 Viggen? And there are plenty of license built American planes in Europa like the F-16 for the original NATO partners where assembled in the Netherlands, most of Finlands F-18 are assembled in Finland to name a few examples.

Now days the customer are pretty strong, do to harder competition on the market and they demand more tech transfers and that majority of the fleet is assembled locally.

Reply Score: 1

Mac user for 15+ years and...
by milatchi on Mon 22nd Mar 2010 19:06 UTC
milatchi
Member since:
2005-08-29

I hope Apple gets the punch in the face they deserve!

Reply Score: 1

OK -- heads up to you guys.
by ritesh_nair on Mon 22nd Mar 2010 21:48 UTC
ritesh_nair
Member since:
2007-03-22

I am patenting the following:

1) Moving the mouse over the wors O S N E W S.
No one else is allowed to even touch their white or other coloured triangular headed spearlike mouse pointer on these letters.

2) I am patenting 'Patenting' and 'patent' words itself . If anyone wants to patent or is trying to use either words they have to PAY me.
I think the US patent office can allot me this patent as well.

LOL

Reply Score: 1