Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 13th Aug 2010 22:58 UTC, submitted by Alex Forster
Legal We're far from done with the Oracle v. Google lawsuit. The search giant has responded to the lawsuit, and Miguel De Icaza has provided a very interesting insight into the case. His report has been confirmed by James Gosling, known as the father of Java who left Sun right after the merger. Icaza speculates that the potential to monetise on Java by suing Google was pitched by Jonathan Schwartz during Sun's sales talks with Oracle. Oh boy.
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Oracle pisses Everyone off....
by Anonymous Coward on Fri 13th Aug 2010 23:41 UTC
Anonymous Coward
Member since:
2005-07-06

Really, all of the Oracle articles on the front page today should just be consolidated into an article with the above headline.

Honestly, the OSS community needs to shun Oracle and all of their products in everything, including their professional capacity. Yeah, Open Office is nice, but how long do you think Oracle will keep sponsoring it before pulling the plug?

At least it's under the LGPL so it can be forked, but maybe start gutting the Java parts out?

Ultimately, I think it would be cool to work on unoconv, formatting libraries, etc. so all Open Source office software (Koffice/Gnome Office/maybe a new release of siag for LXDE Distros... please!!!) can have a common underlying code base and still go their own direction.

Reply Score: 6

RE: Oracle pisses Everyone off....
by Tuishimi on Fri 13th Aug 2010 23:50 UTC in reply to "Oracle pisses Everyone off...."
Tuishimi Member since:
2005-07-06

Ellison and Oracle are some kind of tropical island in the middle of the busiest shipping lanes ruled by a greedy tyrant.

Reply Score: 3

Yeah...
by Lazarus on Fri 13th Aug 2010 23:54 UTC
Lazarus
Member since:
2005-08-10

I saw this item earlier. I read it as "Jonathan Schwartz didn't have the balls to try it himself." Easier to sell a tech company than to run one.

Schwartz always struck me as more of a glorified blogger than a CEO...

/obvious

Edited 2010-08-13 23:56 UTC

Reply Score: 5

Comment by mtzmtulivu
by mtzmtulivu on Sat 14th Aug 2010 00:00 UTC
mtzmtulivu
Member since:
2006-11-14

mr. De Icaza has a small planet size crush on microsoft and i dont think he realises it, he just couldnt resist pitching in a microsoft technology in his analysis.

Reply Score: 10

RE: Comment by mtzmtulivu
by whitemice on Mon 16th Aug 2010 01:03 UTC in reply to "Comment by mtzmtulivu"
whitemice Member since:
2010-08-15

Yes, heaven forbid someone recognize that the Microsoft Community Promise is a solid document that was created with the input of the OSI.

It is just too bad some people are so stuck on Microsoft-hating that it clouds their understanding.

Reply Score: 5

People forget
by Windows Sucks on Sat 14th Aug 2010 00:15 UTC
Windows Sucks
Member since:
2005-11-10

That Sun sued MS for almost the same thing and won big time. Oracle might be wrong in a lot off peoples eyes on this, legally they got pretty good feet to stand on!

Reply Score: 1

RE: People forget
by Hiev on Sat 14th Aug 2010 00:21 UTC in reply to "People forget"
Hiev Member since:
2005-09-27

Yeah and by that time it was moraly aproved but now don't.

Double standar sucks.

Reply Score: 1

RE: People forget
by Thom_Holwerda on Sat 14th Aug 2010 00:28 UTC in reply to "People forget"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Educate yourself. This case has barely ANYTHING in common with the MS suit. It's pretty simple stuff, actually.

http://www.osnews.com/story/23682/Details_from_Oracle_s_Complaint_A...

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: People forget
by Windows Sucks on Sat 14th Aug 2010 00:37 UTC in reply to "RE: People forget"
Windows Sucks Member since:
2005-11-10

I did educate myself. The only difference in the case is that Sun sued for breach of contract and Oracle is directly suing for Patent violation. But the reasoning is the same:

Fragmenting the Java platform;
Flooding the market with incompatible Java Runtime Environments;
Forcing other companies to distribute or use products that are incompatible with Java;
Significantly limiting Sun's distribution channels for the Java Runtime Environment;
Intentionally interfering with the development of Java-based applications for compatible runtimes;
Copyright infringement resulting from Microsoft's distribution of an unlicensed implementation of the Java Runtime Environment;
Intentional creation of incompatibilities between Microsoft software and competing technologies, thereby raising switching costs for consumers and reducing consumer choice.

Basically MS did the same thing as Google did. Microsoft did it after licensing Java. Google just straight up did it. LOL!

I am sure if this makes it to court (Which I doubt will happen) Oracle will pull this out!

Reply Score: 7

RE[3]: People forget
by dylansmrjones on Sat 14th Aug 2010 00:57 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: People forget"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

The two cases are not even remotely similar. The MS-case was centered around Microsoft calling its Java-clone/implementation for Java without actually meeting the specs. The implementation was incomplete and therefore Microsoft wasn't allowed to call it Java.
The copyrights and trademarks violation were merely results of the incomplete and incorrect implementation.

The Google-case is completely different. It is not Java, it is not called Java, and it is not directly compatible with Java. I wonder who is next. Kaffe?

Reply Score: 7

RE[4]: People forget
by j-kidd on Sat 14th Aug 2010 01:51 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: People forget"
j-kidd Member since:
2005-07-06

Read this:

http://androidsamples.blogspot.com/2009/04/how-to-display-remote-im...

and then tell me it's not Java.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: People forget
by dylansmrjones on Sat 14th Aug 2010 03:33 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: People forget"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

It is not Java. Comal-80 is not Pascal. Object Pascal is not Pascal no matter how similar to old Pascal it is. mono is not .Net. Kaffe is not Java, despite being more compatible than Googles offering.

Besides that you are missing the point. Google does not claim it is Java. Microsoft did claim their implementation was Java. Therefore the two cases are quite different.

But of course this case is obviously about Java and somewhat compatible environments. The case is simply not similar to the MS-Sun debacle.

Reply Score: 4

RE[6]: People forget
by Hiev on Sat 14th Aug 2010 03:58 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: People forget"
Hiev Member since:
2005-09-27

From http://developer.android.com/guide/basics/what-is-android.html

What is Android?
Android is a software stack for mobile devices that includes an operating system, middleware and key applications. The Android SDK provides the tools and APIs necessary to begin developing applications on the Android platform using the Java programming language

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: People forget
by dylansmrjones on Sat 14th Aug 2010 06:53 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: People forget"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Still doesn't make the environment a Java-environment. You could write the same about Kaffe. Kaffe is not Java, but you can still write programs for it using Java. Unlike Googles offering Kaffe can run Java bytecode directly.

OTOH, it might be that you consider GNU/Linux to be Unix, or Wine to be Windows? In that case you could call Dalvik for Java, similar to calling Wine for Windows.

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: People forget
by flanque on Sat 14th Aug 2010 02:15 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: People forget"
flanque Member since:
2005-12-15

That sounds a bit like claiming the original xbox is not really a PC.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: People forget
by dylansmrjones on Sat 14th Aug 2010 03:34 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: People forget"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Well, it is a PC to the same extend an Amiga 1000 is an Atari ST ;)

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: People forget
by nt_jerkface on Sat 14th Aug 2010 13:08 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: People forget"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26


The Google-case is completely different. It is not Java, it is not called Java, and it is not directly compatible with Java. I wonder who is next. Kaffe?


It is not completely different, the lawsuit was about more than copyrights. You need to read about the Microsoft Virtual Machine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Java_Virtual_Machine

You do realize that Android not only uses the Java language but there are core Java libraries running in the virtual machine, right?

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: People forget
by dylansmrjones on Sat 14th Aug 2010 14:57 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: People forget"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

There are no Java libraries in Dalvik. There are libraries with the same names (and to some extend same method names), but that's also the case in Kaffe.

A programming language is not protected against copying. The implementation of interpreter/compiler is protected by copyright and documentation can be protected by copyright, but the programming language itself is not protected. So it is irrelevant that the language closely resembles Java. What matters is whether the clone violates patents and whether Google has been using code from Oracle without license. The latter is not the case, unless Apache Harmony is in violation too. Trademarks are irrelevant here, since Google isn't claiming Dalvik is Java. Neither is the developers of Kaffe. Dalvik isn't even compatible, and contains none of the Java libraries. It contains some libraries with some of the same names and some of the same method names, implemented without any code owned by Oracle.

The only thing left is violation of software patents. That remains to be seen.

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: People forget
by nt_jerkface on Sat 14th Aug 2010 18:40 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: People forget"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

There are no Java libraries in Dalvik.[/i] There are libraries with the same names (and to some extend same method names), but that's also the case in Kaffe.


So what is your position again? Google isn't using Java even though they call it Java and use the Java language along with a Java-like VM that includes libraries that have the same names and methods as official Java libraries?


What matters is whether the clone violates patents and whether Google has been using code from Oracle without license.


This is what I have been saying from the beginning, it's the patents that really matter. You are the one that went on some strange "it isn't Java" tangent.

Given the obvious PR cost I'm sure Oracle's lawyers are confident that they have a case.

But I do like how people such as yourself are going to great lengths to defend Google over their non-standard Java that they designed to get around Sun's JME licensing fees. Only Google can go against cross-platform development standards and cut out a major funder of open source just to have continued free defense from people like you.
http://www.binplay.com/2010/08/oracle-sues-boyfriend-of-open-source...

Reply Score: 0

RE[7]: People forget
by dylansmrjones on Sat 14th Aug 2010 19:55 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: People forget"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Hey jerkface!

Google is NOT calling it java. The dispute is about the VM and the framework and it is called Dalvik. The programming language is Java, but programming languages cannot be protected. A specific implementation of a VM, and specifications for such a VM in order to receive a license to use a trademark can be protected. However, Google is not calling Dalvik for Java. The programming language is not the issue here. The VM is. So stop claiming Google is calling Dalvik for Java.

Dalvik is a Java-like VM but is not Java. Just like Amiga OS 4 is not Unix despite having AmiCygnix. Dalvik is less compatible with Java than Wine is with Windows. Do you call Wine for Windows - or GNUstep for NeXTSTEP? I'm looking forward to your answer.

There is no trademark violation since Google isn't calling Dalvik for Java. It is called Dalvik and is only somewhat compatible at source code level (with Java SE - not Java ME) and not at all at bytecode level.

There is no copyright violation for none of the Sun/Oracle code can be found in Dalvik. It is a fork of Apache Harmony.

The only thing left is violation of software patents. We'll see about that.
I did not go at a tangent of Dalvik isn't Java. I merely corrected the OP. You tried to claim that Dalvik is Java, which it is not. Nor does Google claim it is, despite your repeated lies. So no, Dalvik is not a non-standard Java. It is not Java at all.

Your blog is irrelevant and only proves that you really are a jerkface. But that's what you wanted to prove, right?

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: People forget
by sithlord2 on Sat 14th Aug 2010 09:47 UTC in reply to "RE: People forget"
sithlord2 Member since:
2009-04-02

Ok, I'm trying to figure out what the lawsuit is about.

According to the article you linked, Google took "bits and pieces" of Java, threw in their own stuff, and stuck the "Java"-label on it. In my opinion, this does violate some laws.

For example: When I take a Sony TV, and a I start replacing some parts which other parts I have lying around in my basement. Then, I start selling these TV's in stores as "Sony" TV's... I think this does violate copyright laws, and could even be considered forgery in some countries...

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: People forget
by dylansmrjones on Sat 14th Aug 2010 11:25 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: People forget"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Actually Google did not take any code from Java, nor did they put the Java-label on it. And this is not about breaking laws, but violating licenses, patents and trademarks. Think of contract violation - it is not illegal, but you are liable to pay compensation. But it is not a legal offense per se.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: People forget
by nt_jerkface on Sat 14th Aug 2010 18:45 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: People forget"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

How many times does this have to be posted?

What is Android?
Android is a software stack for mobile devices that includes an operating system, middleware and key applications. The Android SDK provides the tools and APIs necessary to begin developing applications on the Android platform using the Java programming language.

http://developer.android.com/guide/basics/what-is-android.html

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: People forget
by dylansmrjones on Sat 14th Aug 2010 19:29 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: People forget"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Using the java programming language does not equal being a Java environment, just like using C# does not imply using Microsoft.Net.

Programming Language != Programming Environment.

How often does it need to be stated before you grasp it!?

Reply Score: 6

RE[6]: People forget
by seanpk on Sat 14th Aug 2010 20:05 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: People forget"
seanpk Member since:
2009-11-17

more to the point - I don't think this is about the *programming* environment, but the *runtime* environment

it makes Oracle's case better that it is the Java programming language that is used to generate code for the VM runtime environment ... at least as far as it goes for generating FUD
it also opens the door for the copyright (they may claim the interfaces to the Java classes are their copyright, for example) and trademark (Java is their trademark) aspects of the lawsuit

as far as the patents go though, it could easily be Microsoft that is being sued for their .NET runtime design and/or implementation (I think they have cross-licensing agreements though)

IANAL, and even if I were, I don't know all the details of Oracle's filing, but I suspect the meatiest part of the lawsuit is wrt the patents. The copyright and trademark parts are just bonus FUD and if they win them all the better.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: People forget
by nt_jerkface on Sat 14th Aug 2010 23:07 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: People forget"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

Using the java programming language does not equal being a Java environment, just like using C# does not imply using Microsoft.Net.


You said Java, not Java environment.

Stating that they don't use Java gives the impression that they have nothing to do with it.

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: People forget
by dylansmrjones on Sun 15th Aug 2010 09:56 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: People forget"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Yes I did. It has been very clear all the time for all involved that this is about the VM and the code making up the VM - and not the language. We all know that languages cannot be protected, and we all know the case between MS and Sun was never about the language, but using the Java trademark for an incomplete implementation of the Sun JVM and the resulting breach of contract as well as trademark and copyright violations.

Whatever arguments Oracle have, they will be equally valid had Google used CBM Basic, Locomotive Basic or Smalltalk or APL or Forth or whatever. Dalvik is not Java for the same reasons Kaffe is not Java. You can keep claiming the only the language matters, but you are wrong as usual.

Reply Score: 2

OSS folks bashed Mono, saying that
by MollyC on Sat 14th Aug 2010 01:04 UTC
MollyC
Member since:
2006-07-04

it should be avoided at all costs, out of fear that someday Microsoft would sue those that implemented and/or deployed that particular alternative implementation of .NET. This, despite the fact that Microsoft had submitted C# and the core of .NET to a standards body (ECMA, I think), and eventually signed a public legal committment to not sue over Mono.

But others warned that Java was as patent-encumbered as .NET, and that there was nothing preventing Sun from suing implementers of alternative JVMs (or quasi-JVMs) that might infringed on Java's patents. But the OSS folks dismissed those warnings, saying that Sun had earned their trust (unlike Microsoft), and so they could trust Sun to never sue over infringement of Java's patents.

So I just have to laugh at this turn of events.
The OSS community trusted Sun not to sue and distrusted Micrsoft not to sue. The OSS community made the wrong call, likely out of their hatred of Microsoft.

Edited 2010-08-14 01:13 UTC

Reply Score: 8

Tuishimi Member since:
2005-07-06

Let's hope Oracle doesn't buy Microsoft, eh?

Reply Score: 11

MollyC Member since:
2006-07-04

LOL! Great quip!

Reply Score: 2

bnolsen Member since:
2006-01-06

Umm...huge numbers of us open source people have neither Java nor Mono installed and don't want this technology. You shouldn't make generalizations over this and artificially classify us.

Reply Score: 7

leech Member since:
2006-01-10

I'm not quite sure where you got all that, but if you look at how Debian and most distributions do it, they don't install Mono OR Java by default, at least not Sun's Java, they use the OpenJDK, which is basically the 'Open source Java that Sun backed."

Now according to Wikipedia, both are 'mostly' GPLv2.

The problem is there are bits of both, namely class libraries for Java and other bits for .Net that can't be GPL due to whatever.

The heart of the problem with Google's 'java' is that you can't take something written with the java language that is made to work with Dalvik, and use it on any other Java VM.

Breaks the whole "run anywhere" philosophy.

Python FTW!

Reply Score: 5

Moochman Member since:
2005-07-06

This is totally different from the Mono situation. If Google had made something Mono-like, i.e. binary compatible with the official Java runtime, there would be no problem. On the other hand, the Davlik VM purposefully breaks compatibility with the official Java runtime. It can easily be argued that Google is employing lock-in tactics here, which is a Bad Thing (whether or not that is actually Google's primary motivation). So Oracle actually has grounds to be pissed.

Mono on the other hand is generally a good little boy when it comes to sticking to .NET compatibility, so MS suing would seem like a much less reasonable thing to do.

Edited 2010-08-14 19:35 UTC

Reply Score: 3

table turned
by JrezIN on Sat 14th Aug 2010 01:06 UTC
JrezIN
Member since:
2005-06-29

I wonder if this actually means that now is less risk to develop an .NET clone than an Java clone... that pretty much turns the table of a lot of old discussions...

Sad, sad patentable world...

Reply Score: 1

RE: table turned
by pgeorgi on Sat 14th Aug 2010 07:49 UTC in reply to "table turned"
pgeorgi Member since:
2010-02-18

I wonder if this actually means that now is less risk to develop an .NET clone than an Java clone..

Nope, the patents might just as well apply to CLR as well - optimized initialization of objects, JIT mechanisms, preloading, OO security framework.
CLR isn't _that_ different that implementations are automatically safe.

The difference between .NET and Android might be that Microsoft paid Sun (as part of their 1.6b$ payment due to the lawsuit, or separately) to license all these patents. That still doesn't extend to other CLR implementations (at least that would be a very unusual licensing deal)

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: table turned
by JrezIN on Sat 14th Aug 2010 10:19 UTC in reply to "RE: table turned"
JrezIN Member since:
2005-06-29

I was talking about MS not legally pursuing other implementations (at least yet), unlike Oracle... but you also made a good point about the reach of these patents.

Reply Score: 2

What comes next?
by churlish_Helmut on Sat 14th Aug 2010 01:11 UTC
churlish_Helmut
Member since:
2010-04-12

What comes next?

A proprietary Java?
Will I be sued for developing apps with Java without paying a license fee?

Are there any technologies which oracle may destroy?

Does this have any consequence for googles agenda?

And for the End: Is there any important company left, that I can trust or like?

Edited 2010-08-14 01:19 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE: What comes next?
by pgeorgi on Sat 14th Aug 2010 07:54 UTC in reply to "What comes next?"
pgeorgi Member since:
2010-02-18

Is there any important company left, that I can trust or like?

Companies aren't there to like or trust. They exist to make money to their owners (or shareholders in case of these pesty megacorps).

While privately held businesses might be somewhat more balanced (and care about customers or employees, or "fans" for that matter), traded companies have a legal obligation to screw those to the maximum extent possible as long as that improves the quarterly results of the share holders.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: What comes next?
by nt_jerkface on Sat 14th Aug 2010 19:33 UTC in reply to "RE: What comes next?"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26


While privately held businesses might be somewhat more balanced (and care about customers or employees, or "fans" for that matter), traded companies have a legal obligation to screw those to the maximum extent possible as long as that improves the quarterly results of the share holders.


++Good point

Open source fans need to quit getting in bed with publicly traded companies. At the end of the day their shareholders are more important than you.

Privately held companies like Valve are usually more focused on their product. They of course want to make a profit as well but aren't under pressure to please a large group of anonymous owners that only care about a return on their investment.

I sometimes wish Stallman started an anti-megacorp movement instead of anti-proprietary. There are a lot of small privately held software companies that treat their customers far better than some of the megacorps that support open source. I had the owner of a small private software company email me at 2 AM his time over a minor problem I had with the software. That's awesome.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: What comes next?
by Soulbender on Sun 15th Aug 2010 01:59 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: What comes next?"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

++Good point

I sometimes wish Stallman started an anti-megacorp movement instead of anti-proprietary


If you ever decide to start one, count me in.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: What comes next?
by dylansmrjones on Sun 15th Aug 2010 10:11 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: What comes next?"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

I'm pretty sure Prodhoun did start something like that ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE: What comes next?
by Soulbender on Sun 15th Aug 2010 01:50 UTC in reply to "What comes next?"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Is there any important company left, that I can trust or like?


Depends on your definition of important. Do you mean publicly traded multinational corporations? Then no, and you should never have trusted any of them in the first place.
Do you mean smaller mainly privately owned companies? Then yes, this is the segment where you will find companies you can trust.

As someone said at my first ever job: it's better to be a big customer to a small company than a small customer to a big company.

Reply Score: 3

RE: What comes next?
by gnufreex on Sun 15th Aug 2010 09:09 UTC in reply to "What comes next?"
gnufreex Member since:
2010-05-06

You should never trust any company, you should always look for leverage.

For using Java, you have leverage. OpenJDK is GPL and distributed by Oracle, meaning that Oracle can't sue anybody over it.

Oracle won't sue developers of Java, they never did that.

Dalvik is not Java. It is competitor to Java, like Mono is. Don't use Mono or Dalvik (or .NET for that matter), and you are in the clear. Use OpenJDK and Oracle can't do anything against you.

Consequences to Google are result of their lack of thought they put into Android design. If they based their VM on standard OpenJDK, this wouldn't happen. They tired to EEE Java, and now they are in problems.

Reply Score: 0

bullshit article
by Beta on Sat 14th Aug 2010 01:20 UTC
Beta
Member since:
2005-07-06

Integration talks, i.e. after purchase.
'Confirming' incorrect rumours spread by biased party? Puhlease, all this negative Java panic.. in such a case, Oracle is required to notify infringers to allow them to remedy situation - it would be enough to replace harmony libs with openjdk (to get implied patent grants from oracle) and gpl dalvik.
Situation with Oracle owning Java sucks, but openjdk + jcp is much better than anything else OSS has in this space.

Reply Score: 2

confirmed by James Gosling??
by ciaran on Sat 14th Aug 2010 01:26 UTC
ciaran
Member since:
2006-11-27

"confirmed by James Gosling"

Gosling confirmed that Oracle showed an interest the patent situation between Sun and Google, but that's not the same as confirming the accusation that "Schwartz Pitched Google Lawsuit to Oracle".

I'm documenting the whole case here:

http://en.swpat.org/wiki/Oracle_v._Google_%282010,_USA%29

Update: Reading De Icaza's post (which he updated earlier today) - he didn't even initially say that "Schwartz Pitched Google Lawsuit to Oracle". No one said that. De Icaza just threw it around as a theory, and then he announced that it was confirmed by Gosling's post (which didn't confirm that at all).

This story has no substance.

Edited 2010-08-14 01:41 UTC

Reply Score: 8

So, what is left behind?
by ebasconp on Sat 14th Aug 2010 01:55 UTC
ebasconp
Member since:
2006-05-09

So, what is left for us, the actual programmers?

Plain old C, C++ or D?

Reply Score: 2

RE: So, what is left behind?
by flanque on Sat 14th Aug 2010 02:17 UTC in reply to "So, what is left behind?"
flanque Member since:
2005-12-15

C#, Python

Reply Score: 3

RE: So, what is left behind?
by Hiev on Sat 14th Aug 2010 02:39 UTC in reply to "So, what is left behind?"
Hiev Member since:
2005-09-27

Vala of course.

Reply Score: 2

RE: So, what is left behind?
by jack_perry on Sat 14th Aug 2010 02:53 UTC in reply to "So, what is left behind?"
jack_perry Member since:
2005-07-06

I'd be willing to dust off my Modula-2 and/or Eiffel skills. But not one language derived from C syntax!!! ;-)

Reply Score: 2

RE: So, what is left behind?
by Morgan on Sat 14th Aug 2010 02:53 UTC in reply to "So, what is left behind?"
Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

Assembly...machine language...punch cards....

Or have those been patented too?

Reply Score: 2

RE: So, what is left behind?
by orestes on Sat 14th Aug 2010 03:05 UTC in reply to "So, what is left behind?"
orestes Member since:
2005-07-06

FORTRAN and COBOL ;-)

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: So, what is left behind?
by dylansmrjones on Sat 14th Aug 2010 14:58 UTC in reply to "RE: So, what is left behind?"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Don't forget Algol, you heathen :p

Reply Score: 2

RE: So, what is left behind?
by MollyC on Sat 14th Aug 2010 09:27 UTC in reply to "So, what is left behind?"
MollyC Member since:
2006-07-04

Tablog

Reply Score: 2

RE: So, what is left behind?
by anevilyak on Sat 14th Aug 2010 13:48 UTC in reply to "So, what is left behind?"
anevilyak Member since:
2005-09-14

bf and Malbolge?

Reply Score: 2

RE: So, what is left behind?
by TheGZeus on Sat 14th Aug 2010 16:31 UTC in reply to "So, what is left behind?"
TheGZeus Member since:
2010-05-19

Also Forth(s), Lisp(s) ASM.
They have been around long enough to pre-date software patents. They _are_ the prior art that invalidates many software patents that might make D dangerous (who knows about patents that might pre-date either garbage collector for D).

Software patents are a small reason why the core of a hobby OS a friend and I are in preliminary stages (yeah, I'll submit a story once it does something cool) is written in ANS Forth and Lisp(s).

But mainly because those are our favourite languages and they're perfect for this (again, it's vaporware, concepts).

Seriously, people expect so much from a language now. A language meant to allow you to write a program that runs everywhere is awesome, but these make so many guarantees, they're basically an OS-in-an-OS. That's fine, I use Emacs. It's just that every new language is like this, now.

We're going to prove you can do alot in old languages.

Reply Score: 1

RE: So, what is left behind?
by Soulbender on Sun 15th Aug 2010 02:02 UTC in reply to "So, what is left behind?"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

PL/1

Reply Score: 2

RE: So, what is left behind?
by fithisux on Sun 15th Aug 2010 18:20 UTC in reply to "So, what is left behind?"
fithisux Member since:
2006-01-22

Pragmatic smalltalk

Reply Score: 2

Whois David and Whois Goliath???
by ctl_alt_del on Sat 14th Aug 2010 03:03 UTC
ctl_alt_del
Member since:
2006-05-14

Current market cap:
Google ~150Bil
Oracle ~115Bil

First of all, the Oracle suit against Google is based around Java2ME NOT Java2SE/EE (ie-OpenJDK). Java2ME is NOT open source and NOT covered by patent protection. This suit has no force or effect on the OpenJDK and it's derivatives as it currently stands!

Oracle (Sun) does have a stake in the mobile market with Java2ME, it was one of the only profitable segments of Java for Sun/Oracle. Google was unable to settle on a license agreement for Java2ME, which is why Dalvik was created, and to circumvent the Java2ME license (allegedly).

Java2ME is a licensed product, unlike Java2SE/EE which was open sourced through the GPLv2 and open to all and controlled through the JCP process (as defective as that may be).

Android SDK (with the Dalvik VM, which is the code in question) is not GPL, but APL (ie--BSD-like, any company can take and obfuscate the code). If this was based on OpenJDK (GPL) instead of Harmony (APL) this may be less of an issue. But ultimately, you need a license for Java2ME implementations.

In theory, Android code can be made/taken proprietary through the APL, OpenJDK code cannot and must be kept GPL. Thus Oracle is protecting the Java programming environment by requiring Google to adhere to it's Java2ME licensing and the OpenJDK code base.

So who is David and who is Goliath???
(Personally I detest them both!)

Reply Score: 7

Icaza
by hackus on Sat 14th Aug 2010 03:34 UTC
hackus
Member since:
2006-06-28

Is a nut case.

Did you see the comment he made at the end of his diatribe about what he thinks is going on?

It doesn't help to take anything seriously, that he says that is for sure.

Oh yeah, here it is:

"Google could settle current damages with Oracle, and switch to the better designed, more pleasant to use, and more open .NET platform. "

The guy must be in love with himself. .Net has the privilege of being one of the only architectures I can remember in recent history. That has utterly and completely failed in I mean a spectacular way.

Right in the heart of Redmond Land, Great Britain. Home of the "Microsoftoids" as I call them. Great Britain is vehemently anti open source. Microsoft has paid of sooooooo many people there it isn't funny.

So imagine my <sarcasm> surprise</sarcasm> a few years back when I heard of the London Stock Exchange declaring with Ballmer in tow, that all Exchange software will be converted to the .Net and Microsoft platform.

Not that it surprised me any when I heard the announcement. Microsoft is a darling of the various political groups in Great Britain and has paid them millions of pounds in political contributions.

So when even _they_ seen how aweful .Net was from top too bottom for doing anything more serious than running Aunt Granny's front page and forms extensions for her flower store front on the web, it all came crashing down one afternoon as the exchange ground to ahalt, not just once, but it had to take like 6 months of crap too happen before the Brits finally realized.

It ain't gonna work.

Then we got Icaza trying to bring that complete and utter FAILURE he calls a "better designed platform" than Java to Linux.

I am speechless.

-Hack

Edited 2010-08-14 03:49 UTC

Reply Score: 6

RE: Icaza
by jptros on Sat 14th Aug 2010 05:07 UTC in reply to "Icaza"
jptros Member since:
2005-08-26

Maybe you two should get together for drinks because you two seem to be of the same mindset.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Icaza
by Lumbergh on Sat 14th Aug 2010 05:17 UTC in reply to "Icaza"
Lumbergh Member since:
2005-06-29

You know you don't have to live your life the way you're living it. There is help out there for you. I feel bad for people like you.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Icaza
by jjc_uk on Sat 14th Aug 2010 07:26 UTC in reply to "Icaza"
jjc_uk Member since:
2010-08-14

mmm did you miss this
London Stock Exchange dumps Windows for Linux

http://blogs.computerworld.com/14876/london_stock_exchange_dumps_wi...

Reply Score: 3

RE: Icaza
by nt_jerkface on Sat 14th Aug 2010 13:13 UTC in reply to "Icaza"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

.Net has the privilege of being one of the only architectures I can remember in recent history. That has utterly and completely failed in I mean a spectacular way.


For a failed platform there sure are a lot of .net books at my local Barnes and Nobles.

The Java sections shrink a little more each year.

Edited 2010-08-14 13:13 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE: Icaza
by Soulbender on Sun 15th Aug 2010 02:09 UTC in reply to "Icaza"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

If you think .net is a complete and utter failure you're in the same crazy boat that you want to put Icaza in.

Reply Score: 2

v RE: Icaza
by gnufreex on Sun 15th Aug 2010 08:58 UTC in reply to "Icaza"
RE[2]: Icaza
by ssa2204 on Sun 15th Aug 2010 16:40 UTC in reply to "RE: Icaza"
ssa2204 Member since:
2006-04-22

De Icaza have shown that he is nothing more than Microsoft shill. I knew that, but now I have a prof. Now everyone can see what scum he is.


Did your master Stallman tell you to write that, or were you able to think of this all on your own?

Seriously now, seek therapy, you need it.

Reply Score: 6

RE: Icaza
by Ripples on Sun 15th Aug 2010 16:06 UTC in reply to "Icaza"
Ripples Member since:
2005-07-06

Microsoft hasn't sued over Mono yet, no one has sued over their runtime yet, and yet ANOTHER Java lawsuit just happened. So where was he wrong?

Haters gonna hate I guess :-)

Reply Score: 3

Ada is the way to go
by rom508 on Sat 14th Aug 2010 11:39 UTC
rom508
Member since:
2007-04-20

The reason why Java is so widespread is due to massive amounts of money Sun spent on developing/marketing the Java brand.

From a technical perspective, I personally think Java is too bloated and over-engineered. Java makes sense only to companies like Sun/Oracle that sell expensive hardware to satisfy Java's run-time overheads.

Ada is extensively used in safety-critical systems and is a very modern (compared to good old C) programming language. It is safe, fast and has support for object-oriented programming.

With the recent controversies around Java, I think people should at least give Ada a try. It is difficult not to like Ada, because it's well structured and supported robust software development principles.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Ada is the way to go
by pgeorgi on Sun 15th Aug 2010 06:38 UTC in reply to "Ada is the way to go"
pgeorgi Member since:
2010-02-18

The reason why Java is so widespread is due to massive amounts of money Sun spent on developing/marketing the Java brand.

By now, the reason why Java is so widespread is that it's a relatively safe language to program with a huge amount of libraries available for just about every scenario businesses might need.

That is, Lego for programmers. Just without the fun.

It's not about languages or execution models anymore, but about the availability of components that can be plugged together. Perl survives through CPAN for the same reason.
Where's such a thing for Ada?

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Ada is the way to go
by rom508 on Sun 15th Aug 2010 14:28 UTC in reply to "RE: Ada is the way to go"
rom508 Member since:
2007-04-20

You are just repeating what I wrote in my post. When Java first emerged it was slow and clunky. Sun poured huge amount of time and money, vastly improving Java compiler technology and adding tons of libraries. So much that you have people arguing how Java is faster than C/C++, etc.

Nevertheless, when it comes to safety critical systems, people are using Ada, and not Java real time, or whatever they call it.

Nothing is stopping you from implementing the required libraries in Ada, or any other language. Ada does not have as many libraries/packages as Java, because nobody owns or is trying to sell Ada brand. Businesses jumped on the Java bandwagon because they don't really care about the quality of software, but the quantity. Why is it that there are so many mediocre Java programmers? Because all they know is how to slap together Java's lego bricks. It's much easier to be a bricklayer, than an architect.

I don't claim to be an expert in Java or Ada, but I used them both, and in my opinion Ada is much better designed. When a programming language enforces automatic garbage collection and prevents you from using pointers explicitly, because programmers are too stupid to get it right, it really makes me wonder what type of people prefer using that language.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Ada is the way to go
by pgeorgi on Sun 15th Aug 2010 16:53 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Ada is the way to go"
pgeorgi Member since:
2010-02-18

Sure, but the appeal of Java is that you don't have to write those libraries, but merely use them (that this isn't efficient or convenient in lots of cases is nothing PHBs have to care about)

The other appeal is that bricklayers are cheaper than architects.

Until these are fixed, Ada won't surpass Java. And I fear it's easier to fix it by writing those libraries than by removing the real problem (the PHBs) - but still a nearly unsurmountable task.

But you're free to try, of course ;-)

Reply Score: 1

Oracle FUD
by SonicMetalMan on Sat 14th Aug 2010 15:41 UTC
SonicMetalMan
Member since:
2009-05-25

Regardless of the "is it really java?" argument I see that prevails in this thread, I am mostly disturbed at the mere notion of this pointless lawsuit. I have barely begun to get over the SCO debacle and now Ellison pulls a Darl McBride. Those two guys top my "most reviled" list in tech world.

Android is clearly going to become the dominant smartphone platform, and this is simply the most detestable method imaginable to try and steal a piece of the pie. If this actually makes it to trial, I would dearly love to see the presiding judge throw this out with a comment like "this is stupid", which would of course be entirely true.

Hey, I can dream the impossible dream.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Oracle FUD
by BallmerKnowsBest on Mon 16th Aug 2010 21:36 UTC in reply to "Oracle FUD"
BallmerKnowsBest Member since:
2008-06-02

Android is clearly going to become the dominant smartphone platform, and this is simply the most detestable method imaginable to try and steal a piece of the pie.

Apple is probably secretly behind the lawsuit.

Reply Score: 2

i hate oracle
by FunkyELF on Sat 14th Aug 2010 22:06 UTC
FunkyELF
Member since:
2006-07-26
Deboracle
by lordepox on Sat 14th Aug 2010 22:36 UTC
lordepox
Member since:
2010-04-14

Ellison is the anti-christ.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Deboracle
by jptros on Sun 15th Aug 2010 03:14 UTC in reply to "Deboracle"
jptros Member since:
2005-08-26

Agreed. He has the scumbag car salesman look down perfect in most of the pictures I've ever seen of him.

Reply Score: 3

v famalegoods.com
by famalegoods103 on Mon 16th Aug 2010 13:25 UTC
v btu54
by famalegoods103 on Mon 16th Aug 2010 13:29 UTC