Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 20th Aug 2010 21:40 UTC, submitted by koki
BeOS & Derivatives This summer, too, the Haikuproject is part of the Google Summer of Code event. One of the more interesting projects is the Services Kit (draft document!) by Christophe "Shusui" Huriaux, which is an API to facilitate the creation of native web-enabled programs using standard web protocols and data exchange mechanisms.
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nice!
by poundsmack on Fri 20th Aug 2010 22:15 UTC
poundsmack
Member since:
2005-07-13

oh this is gonna be soo cool!

Reply Score: 3

Probably better chances for HAiku..
by daniel_iversen on Fri 20th Aug 2010 22:22 UTC
daniel_iversen
Member since:
2005-07-16

Thats nice, Haiku probably have a lot better chances of any adoption this way. Is its browser based on Webkit, I thought so? If so, can it be integrated smoothly with the Google Appstore? (or what about porting the Chromium browser even?).

Getting enough traction with native apps could be a struggle in the desktop space (even OpenSolaris could not really pull this off IMHO, standing on the shoulders of Linux efforts for some of its apps) so this is nice.

Edited 2010-08-20 22:26 UTC

Reply Score: 2

PatrickQuinn Member since:
2010-06-08

I agree with you, check out this project ( http://revlin.org ) they are using Haiku as the core of the OS

Reply Score: 1

Forward thinking
by djohnston on Fri 20th Aug 2010 23:54 UTC
djohnston
Member since:
2006-04-11

Since Thom Holwerda issued the challenge to Haiku developers some years ago, they have been moving forward at a good pace. The project seems to be gaining momentum as it progresses. Of all the "alternative" OSes, I believe the Haiku developers demonstrate more "outside of the box" thinking. They also use GPL code wherever necessary, thereby eliminating the need to re-invent the wheel.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Forward thinking
by Thom_Holwerda on Sat 21st Aug 2010 00:09 UTC in reply to "Forward thinking"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Since Thom Holwerda issued the challenge to Haiku developers some years ago


I did what now?

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Forward thinking
by Morgan on Sat 21st Aug 2010 23:55 UTC in reply to "RE: Forward thinking"
Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

You did it with pink unicorn power!

In all seriousness, I think what he is referring to is your frequent vocal support in the early years of the project and your well-stated love for the BeOS over the years. Like it or not you are a somewhat influential person on these here interwebs, at least when it comes to operating systems.

Then again, he could be referring to a specific sentence you spoke three or four years ago and we all forgot about it, you included.

I'm going with unicorns.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Forward thinking
by anevilyak on Sat 21st Aug 2010 02:18 UTC in reply to "Forward thinking"
anevilyak Member since:
2005-09-14

They also use GPL code wherever necessary, thereby eliminating the need to re-invent the wheel.


That's not entirely accurate, that license is pretty much a last resort for us. Generally most code in Haiku tries to work from sources with friendlier licenses such as BSD/MIT or LGPL. The only major GPLed piece is gcc, most everything else is disabled in the default build (you have to explicitly configure your build to include GPL-based code).

Reply Score: 9

RE[2]: Forward thinking
by umccullough on Sat 21st Aug 2010 03:32 UTC in reply to "RE: Forward thinking"
umccullough Member since:
2006-01-26

"They also use GPL code wherever necessary, thereby eliminating the need to re-invent the wheel.


That's not entirely accurate, that license is pretty much a last resort for us. Generally most code in Haiku tries to work from sources with friendlier licenses such as BSD/MIT or LGPL. The only major GPLed piece is gcc, most everything else is disabled in the default build (you have to explicitly configure your build to include GPL-based code).
"

Indeed. And several GPL pieces have even been replaced in favor of BSD-licensed code (such as several network drivers, etc.)

It will be nice to release Haiku from glibc eventually as well ;)

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Forward thinking
by ZeuZ on Sat 21st Aug 2010 04:43 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Forward thinking"
ZeuZ Member since:
2010-08-02

Not that I might work on it, because my aptitude in this subject is still limited, but what about calling it hlibc? ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Forward thinking
by kaiwai on Sat 21st Aug 2010 10:18 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Forward thinking"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Indeed. And several GPL pieces have even been replaced in favor of BSD-licensed code (such as several network drivers, etc.)

It will be nice to release Haiku from glibc eventually as well ;)


I was under the impression that Haiku was still using the FreeBSD libc except that there were a couple of functions that were changed so that they operate like the glibc implementation rather than the FreeBSD implementation.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Forward thinking
by umccullough on Sat 21st Aug 2010 15:11 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Forward thinking"
umccullough Member since:
2006-01-26

I was under the impression that Haiku was still using the FreeBSD libc except that there were a couple of functions that were changed so that they operate like the glibc implementation rather than the FreeBSD implementation.


I believe they started off with the BSD libc, but switched to glibc for compatibility reasons (since BeOS had used glibc for its "libroot" support).

http://dev.haiku-os.org/browser/haiku/trunk/src/system/libroot/posi...

Recent discussion suggests that glibc may still be retained only for the BeOS compatibility (i.e. a gcc2-compiled set of libs will still remain optionally-installed for BeOS compatibility) while a non-GPL libc replacement will be grafted in moving forward.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Forward thinking
by kaiwai on Sun 22nd Aug 2010 01:45 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Forward thinking"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

I believe they started off with the BSD libc, but switched to glibc for compatibility reasons (since BeOS had used glibc for its "libroot" support).

http://dev.haiku-os.org/browser/haiku/trunk/src/system/libroot/posi...

Recent discussion suggests that glibc may still be retained only for the BeOS compatibility (i.e. a gcc2-compiled set of libs will still remain optionally-installed for BeOS compatibility) while a non-GPL libc replacement will be grafted in moving forward.


Sounds awesome; I have to admit though, it is rather disappointing that they've removed the progress chart which used to track the 'completeness' of each API call or feature; is there some way to track how far along they are in terms of implementation? do they have a goal for the final R1 release or is it more a situation of plodding along and focusing on the quality rather than an arbitrary time table?

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Forward thinking
by umccullough on Sun 22nd Aug 2010 05:49 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Forward thinking"
umccullough Member since:
2006-01-26

is there some way to track how far along they are in terms of implementation? do they have a goal for the final R1 release or is it more a situation of plodding along and focusing on the quality rather than an arbitrary time table?


I'd say it simply became too hard to track.

At this point, it's not so much "what's done, and what isn't", but rather: "What apps run, and for those that don't, do we really care?"

I'm not sure anyone really has a clear idea of what is incomplete these days. I know the media kit is still missing encoding support, but beyond that, the parts that are lacking BeOS R5 support are either few, or unimportant I guess.

These days, people are more interested in when Haiku will support their specific hardware, or support WiFi, etc.

As for when R1 might emerge... I couldn't answer that ;) There seems to be a desire for rock-solid quality before the core devs will sign off on that.

Edited 2010-08-22 05:52 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Forward thinking
by koki on Sun 22nd Aug 2010 13:26 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Forward thinking"
koki Member since:
2005-10-17

The Haiku media kit already has encoding support. It was implemented last year by Stephan "Stippi" Assmus.

The development progress charts were cool and but pretty useless. The idea was nice, but the team leaders did not have the discipline to keep the charts up to date, so in the end they became nothing but make believe business, as in most cases they did not reflect reality at all. Good riddance.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Forward thinking
by Fettarme H-Milch on Sun 22nd Aug 2010 16:36 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Forward thinking"
Fettarme H-Milch Member since:
2010-02-16

glibc may still be retained only for the BeOS compatibility (i.e. a gcc2-compiled set of libs will still remain optionally-installed for BeOS compatibility) while a non-GPL libc replacement will be grafted in moving forward.

glibc isn't under GPL.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Forward thinking
by umccullough on Sun 22nd Aug 2010 18:57 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Forward thinking"
umccullough Member since:
2006-01-26

glibc isn't under GPL.


You're right, it's only LGPL...

Ultimately, there is very little GPL code used in Haiku, unless you count all the CLI tools, which are pretty much used only for development and *nix compatibility.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Forward thinking
by cb88 on Sun 22nd Aug 2010 19:01 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Forward thinking"
cb88 Member since:
2009-04-23

Right its LGPL and closely tied to Linux/*nix systems...

other possibly more flexible alternatives should also be considered ... for the c++ libc++ might be usable and its designed to be flexible and compiler independant

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Forward thinking
by Fettarme H-Milch on Sun 22nd Aug 2010 21:11 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Forward thinking"
Fettarme H-Milch Member since:
2010-02-16

If the Haiku project aims for GPL-free development environment, Clang is the only potential alternative and that comes with its own C++ library.
As for a LibC..... I'd guess they'll adopt the one from FreeBSD or NetBSD at some point to get a BSDLed implementation.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Forward thinking
by Valhalla on Sun 22nd Aug 2010 13:19 UTC in reply to "RE: Forward thinking"
Valhalla Member since:
2006-01-24


That's not entirely accurate, that license is pretty much a last resort for us. Generally most code in Haiku tries to work from sources with friendlier licenses such as BSD/MIT or LGPL. The only major GPLed piece is gcc,

Yes, gcc and bash afaik, and given that both are standalone they have no impact on the overall licence strategy.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Forward thinking
by tyrione on Mon 23rd Aug 2010 00:28 UTC in reply to "RE: Forward thinking"
tyrione Member since:
2005-11-21

Does anyone know of their plans for LLVM integration?

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Forward thinking
by Panajev on Mon 23rd Aug 2010 10:56 UTC in reply to "RE: Forward thinking"
Panajev Member since:
2008-01-09

LLVM and Clang support next then ;) ? Soon enough C++ won't be a problem with Clang at all ;) .

Reply Score: 1

RE: Forward thinking
by neticspace on Sat 21st Aug 2010 15:15 UTC in reply to "Forward thinking"
neticspace Member since:
2009-06-09

The Haiku dev teams didn't have an efficient PR years ago. It had brought many incidents of misunderstanding against Haiku. But now it's not the case anymore.

As long as the spirit of BeOS lives on through Haiku, I wouldn't complain.

Reply Score: 3

Student vs. practicing engineer
by vivainio on Sat 21st Aug 2010 05:48 UTC
vivainio
Member since:
2008-12-26

Take a look at the draft proposal:

https://docs.google.com/View?id=dfc49mzx_7gq8fbgfw

Here's how a pro would explain the same thing:

"We are going to implement wget/cUrl/urllib/QNetworkAccessManager-like thingie for Haiku. We might throw in some data extractors (using JSON/XML parsers) if we have the time, though we are not sure whether it really belongs to this layer."

Reply Score: 5

Google Native client
by jeanmarc on Sat 21st Aug 2010 06:30 UTC
jeanmarc
Member since:
2005-07-06

I believe it's the same thing than Google Native client right ?
If so, why they didn't use it ? (Especially since BGA work at Google for it). Anyway it is really interesting ;)

http://www.freelists.org/post/haiku-development/Googles-NativeClien...
Thanks

Edited 2010-08-21 06:33 UTC

Reply Score: 0

RE: Google Native client
by vivainio on Sat 21st Aug 2010 07:48 UTC in reply to "Google Native client"
vivainio Member since:
2008-12-26

I believe it's the same thing than Google Native client right ?


See my previous comment for what it is. Completely different things.

Reply Score: 2

v Strain
by richsax on Sat 21st Aug 2010 07:54 UTC
RE: Strain
by OSGuy on Sat 21st Aug 2010 08:27 UTC in reply to "Strain"
OSGuy Member since:
2006-01-01

I am pretty sure Haiku's UI will go through an evolution. The idea of its current UI is pretty much based on the look of the old BeOS 5.2 but they've done some overall refinements. However I do prefer if the tracker (taskbar) behaved a bit like the Windows one when stretched to the bottom and this means left clicking on a button activates the window and maximizing the window does not cover the tracker/taskbar.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Strain
by insanity_tn on Sat 21st Aug 2010 08:31 UTC in reply to "Strain"
insanity_tn Member since:
2009-08-28

Actually it is an alpha stage software and it reached its Alpha2 milestone, meaning that the OS is still on *unstable development stage* and putting it under heavy pressure is unfair giving the fact that it is not production ready and everyone knows that it is in heavy need of bug reports. Besides all this, I think that even its in alpha stage it still far better than other FOSS or proprietary software.

The point of this project it to provide a cleanly implemented bloat-free responsive modern OS that permits everyone to concentrate on *working* not on tweaking or cleaning the OS 8h/day. In addition on goal of the project was to implement a complete coherent OS stack from kernel to font preference dialog with focus on threading to allow maximum responsiveness. All of this was thought from the beginning not after seeing all the success and hype of threaded tabs on Chrome browser.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Strain
by blitze on Sat 21st Aug 2010 09:17 UTC in reply to "RE: Strain"
blitze Member since:
2006-09-15

Being someone who has seen BeOS in it's hayday and used it in relation to offerings from BSD, Linux, OS-X and Windows, BeOS as a an OS that focuses on User responsiveness and media handling - nothing has touched it.

I would take BeOS on a AMD K6 with 256Mb ram for running multiple video and audio streams without dropping the ball over anything that exists today.

Haiku - now it's in Alpha 2 Stage and they have to iron out the code after rebuilding from the ground up and also adapt it to modern hardware. Couple that with tracker the OS will wipe the floor of the current desktop offerings. Kudos to the dedication of all involved in the Haiku project.

Yes the UI needs to evolve and it will but they are focusing on getting the thing out the door with 5.3 binary compatibility and then move it forward with subsequent releases.

What exists on the desktop today is fn depressing and holding back the state of desktop computing by a decade or two.

Reply Score: 3

v RE[3]: Strain
by richsax on Sat 21st Aug 2010 13:15 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Strain"
RE[4]: Strain
by blitze on Sun 22nd Aug 2010 02:14 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Strain"
blitze Member since:
2006-09-15

Try loading both modern OS's up with 6 avi streams and 10 MP3 streams and then get back to me about how wonderful the User Environment is.

Even on modern accelerated hardware bot OS's will crawl. BeOS was doing this on 10 year old hardware with no audio, frame drops or non responsive UI without the power of computing we have to day.

Chalk and Cheese.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Strain
by smitty on Sun 22nd Aug 2010 03:45 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Strain"
smitty Member since:
2005-10-13

Try loading both modern OS's up with 6 avi streams and 10 MP3 streams and then get back to me about how wonderful the User Environment is.

Even on modern accelerated hardware bot OS's will crawl. BeOS was doing this on 10 year old hardware with no audio, frame drops or non responsive UI without the power of computing we have to day.

Chalk and Cheese.


I did just that in addition to having a few browser windows open, and I'm not noticing any issues at all. CPU use is hovering around 10% and i can't even find a single stutter to complain about.

Now I'll admit that Haiku could probably do this on slower hardware than what I'm running, but I don't think a Q6600 CPU, 4GB RAM, and a Radeon 3870 GPU are that much more powerful than what the typical user runs today.

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: Strain
by WereCatf on Sun 22nd Aug 2010 05:30 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Strain"
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

I did just that in addition to having a few browser windows open, and I'm not noticing any issues at all. CPU use is hovering around 10% and i can't even find a single stutter to complain about.

I just tried it myself but I didn't bother with mp3s. I just opened 10 AVI files instead, resulting in about 17% CPU usage. That's not bad IMHO; 10 simultaneous videos playing and plenty of room for more. Haiku ain't the only OS that can do that and the people promoting Haiku should rather find something else to use as metrics instead of "I can play so and so many videos at the same time!" Playing several video streams on even a moderately recent hardware just is no feat at all.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Strain
by dragossh on Sun 22nd Aug 2010 22:40 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Strain"
dragossh Member since:
2008-12-16

I did just that in addition to having a few browser windows open, and I'm not noticing any issues at all. CPU use is hovering around 10% and i can't even find a single stutter to complain about.

Now I'll admit that Haiku could probably do this on slower hardware than what I'm running, but I don't think a Q6600 CPU, 4GB RAM, and a Radeon 3870 GPU are that much more powerful than what the typical user runs today.

BeOS did that with a few MHz, <256MB of RAM and software rendering. I guess all that glossy stuff doesn't help if you need a powerful computer to do what was possible 10 years ago.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Strain
by konrad on Sun 22nd Aug 2010 12:22 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Strain"
konrad Member since:
2006-01-06

While its cool, video and audio editing on BeOS is joke. There are no applications that are good enough for professional work. So even it it could run 40 streams without hickups its just a nice demo to impress your roommates.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Strain
by Anonymous Coward on Sun 22nd Aug 2010 16:45 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Strain"
Anonymous Coward Member since:
2005-07-06

While its cool, video and audio editing on BeOS is joke. There are no applications that are good enough for professional work.


There really aren't many outside of Windows and Mac. Of all of the apps on Linux for video editing, only Cinelerra, and Kdenlive even come close, and it's still a huge step down from even Premiere elements.

VLMC looks very promising, but development is moving at a pretty slow pace.

I think once there are stable, pro-quality video editing apps for Linux, it will be trivial to have them on Haiku as well.

On the other hand, audio is looking better, since some of the major audio hardware companies still use BeOS in their hardware, and will probably use Haiku when there is a stable release. Maybe there will be a version of Ardour, Audacity or Traverso when there is a 1.0 release... but until then, I doubt you'll see many popular apps for Haiku.

http://www.tascam.com/products/sx-1.html
http://www.roland.com/
http://www.izcorp.com/

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Strain
by Soulbender on Sun 22nd Aug 2010 14:41 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Strain"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

That was a cool BeOS ability 10 years ago, not so much today. Any modern OS running on moderate hardware is up to that task these days.
BeOS was cool and Haiku is cool but running 10 mp3's and 6 videos won't be the selling point today.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Strain
by Valhalla on Sun 22nd Aug 2010 15:59 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Strain"
Valhalla Member since:
2006-01-24

That was a cool BeOS ability 10 years ago, not so much today. Any modern OS running on moderate hardware is up to that task these days.
BeOS was cool and Haiku is cool but running 10 mp3's and 6 videos won't be the selling point today.


True, but it depends on wether that is because the hardware is so much better nowadays that every OS can play lots of videos simultaneously or if the OSes themselves have catched up with Beos high level of responsiveness. When I do computionally heavy things like rendering/compression/encoding on Windows and Linux the system can become slow and slightly unresponsive (particularly on windows), this never happened back on Beos so it will be interesting to try maxing out Haiku once it matures a bit more to see if this still holds true. Hell, even copying a large file slows down user interaction in windows/linux from time to time which is probably fine for a server os, but for a desktop os I rather have the file copying 5-10 seconds slower and have a fully interactive system while it copies. In my opinion responsiveness should always trump throughput in a desktop environment.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Strain
by Soulbender on Mon 23rd Aug 2010 02:58 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Strain"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

True, but it depends on wether that is because the hardware is so much better nowadays that every OS can play lots of videos simultaneously or if the OSes themselves have catched up with Beos high level of responsiveness


For the average user it does not matter. Heck, playing 10 mp3's and 6 avi's is entirely pointless anyway. It's the kind of thing you use to show off to your mates before one of them go "sure, that's cool but what can it DO?".

Hell, even copying a large file slows down user interaction in windows/linux from time to time which is probably fine for a server os, but for a desktop os I rather have the file copying 5-10 seconds slower and have a fully interactive system while it copies.


BFS had problems with files too, you know. I remember having a couple of thousand emails in a folder and let me tell you, doing any operation on those files was the slowest filesystem performance I have ever seen.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Strain
by Fettarme H-Milch on Sun 22nd Aug 2010 21:29 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Strain"
Fettarme H-Milch Member since:
2010-02-16

Try loading both modern OS's up with 6 avi streams and 10 MP3 streams and then get back to me about how wonderful the User Environment is.

Even on modern accelerated hardware bot OS's will crawl.

Tried that. Works fine on my aging KDE/Linux-powered laptop. The only bottleneck is my slow hard drive and that bottleneck has nothing to do with the used OS but with the cache setting.

BeOS was a great OS back then but other operating systems catched up and exceeded meanwhile.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Strain
by dragossh on Sun 22nd Aug 2010 22:42 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Strain"
dragossh Member since:
2008-12-16

THE HARDWARE caught up. Even today, I see Windows 7 locking up and doing its own stuff instead of responding to me. That's not evolution, that's stagnation.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Strain
by jbauer on Sun 22nd Aug 2010 23:02 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Strain"
jbauer Member since:
2005-07-06

THE HARDWARE caught up. Even today, I see Windows 7 locking up and doing its own stuff instead of responding to me. That's not evolution, that's stagnation.


Maybe it's because in Win7 you can actually do stuff. In BeOS/Haiku, not so much, apart from watching a teapot spinning. Kinda reminds me of the whole Compiz spinning cube hype. The more things change...

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Strain
by smitty on Sun 22nd Aug 2010 23:26 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Strain"
smitty Member since:
2005-10-13

THE HARDWARE caught up.

While that's certainly part of it, I think you're overlooking the fact that a great deal of work over the last 10 years has gone into making these OS's scale better. Look at the BKL work in Linux, for example, and the changes in Windows have probably been even larger.

Anyway, in the end what does it matter? If i can run 20 videos simultaneously no matter which OS i choose, why wouldn't i go for the one that i like best?

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Strain
by Soulbender on Mon 23rd Aug 2010 03:04 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Strain"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Because BeOS never locked up or slowed down. Ever. Right.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Strain
by Fettarme H-Milch on Mon 23rd Aug 2010 12:49 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Strain"
Fettarme H-Milch Member since:
2010-02-16

THE HARDWARE caught up. Even today, I see Windows 7 locking up and doing its own stuff instead of responding to me. That's not evolution, that's stagnation.

So you're "disprooving" my comment about KDE/Linux with flaws of Windows??
Yeah.. makes sense...
That's like saying that Haiku sucks because NetBSD has a flaw of some sort.

And yes, hardware also caught up. Now I have GPU acceleration for many videos. HD playback with only 2% CPU utilization, baby!

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Strain
by richsax on Wed 25th Aug 2010 10:38 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Strain"
richsax Member since:
2010-08-16

Try loading both modern OS's up with 6 avi streams and 10 MP3 streams and then get back to me about how wonderful the User Environment is



Works fine, actually, on my win 7 peecee.

But playing a buttload of videostreams must be the worst metric ever conceived, since 99,999% of all users play only one stream at a time.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Strain
by koki on Wed 25th Aug 2010 15:11 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Strain"
koki Member since:
2005-10-17

"Try loading both modern OS's up with 6 avi streams and 10 MP3 streams and then get back to me about how wonderful the User Environment is



Works fine, actually, on my win 7 peecee.

But playing a buttload of videostreams must be the worst metric ever conceived, since 99,999% of all users play only one stream at a time.
"

As I already mentioned on another comment here, the purpose of this sort of demo is not to show the practicality of playing 10 videos at the same time, but to demonstrate the efficiency of the system under heavy load; the point being, no matter what you throw at Haiku, you will always enjoy a smooth user experience, even if you are using low end hardware.

Given the right (high-end, hardware accelerated) PC, Win 7 (or Linux) may also play multiple streams w/o a hitch. The point is, though, that using Haiku you don't need a supercomputer with hardware acceleration to enjoy a system that does not annoy you with the occasional UI lagging and/or mouse jerkiness.

For example, I have a middle of the road dual core PC with 1GB RAM, and Haiku runs very smoothly not matter what I throw at it (ie., compiling Haiku, playing a video plus web browser, email client, IRC client and plus a few more apps running). On the same machine, Win 7 is a joke that it feels like I had downgraded my PC to a Pentium with 64MB of RAM, and Ubuntu runs acceptably, but the UI shows lagging and it becomes overall jerky (ergo, unusable) when, for example, I compile Haiku in it.

People have got used to the sort of subpar user experience that Win and Linux has delivered over the years, and unfortunately the notion that you need super-machines to enjoy responsiveness has settled in a lot of people's minds. In a way, the multiple video demo tries to demonstrate that it does not have to be that way.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Strain
by jonas.kirilla on Sat 21st Aug 2010 13:32 UTC in reply to "Strain"
jonas.kirilla Member since:
2005-07-11

It actually caused severe pain in my "mouse arm" because of all the insane menu navigation.


Some people put emphasis on that special feature - even the Haiku Users Guide:
http://www.haiku-os.org/docs/userguide/en/tracker.html#navigating

I myself don't use it much. Haiku has a rich set of keyboard shortcuts and also an optional filemanager mode which is more browser-like, which some people prefer. Haiku has all the UI features that BeOS borrowed from MacOS (classic) and Windows. Things like Alt-Tab, spring-loaded folders and cut/copy/paste in the file manager.


It generally feels old, awkward and I got a lot of freezes when putting it under pressure (disabling SMP helped somewhat.)


Haiku can't do so much more with the graphics feel until it gains support for accelerated 3D graphics (perhaps through Gallium) which would allow more complex composition, partial translucency, live window thumbnails, etc.

About the freezes.. I don't see any system hangs on my quad core, a few crashes a month maybe (with everyday use), but I'm using non-release builds. The system is at the mercy of its device drivers, and ultimately, one's hardware, so it's not necessarily "Haiku itself" that is to blame, but that is perhaps a bit of an excuse. ;)

I know the Haiku devs work hard on code quality. It's just difficult to build a bug-free system that supports most hardware out there. It's actually quite amazing what Haiku has acheived with so few people.


So I have to ask... is there a point to this project beyond the fun of doing it / nostalgia?


I would have liked for Haiku to be a bit more revolutionary, but the project had to focus and a straight clone of BeOS (+select improvements) was what the community could find consensus around. Haiku will continue to evolve as long as people keep working on it.

Whether or not it's worth our time.. Whether or not it's worth -your- time.. it all depends on what you want and expect.

Reply Score: 8

RE: Strain
by WereCatf on Sat 21st Aug 2010 13:36 UTC in reply to "Strain"
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

I have never used BeOS, so I don't have the nostagia thing that probably makes it interesting for some people.

Compared to modern OS's, it seems awefully dated. It actually caused severe pain in my "mouse arm" because of all the insane menu navigation.


I have to agree here: I only tried some trial version of BeOS years and years back and never used it for more than a few minutes so I lack the feelings of nostalgia. With the rose-colored shades of nostalgia missing I can only say that Haiku looks plain hideous to my eyes.

Yes, technology-wise it's got enormous amounts of potential and I can bet my ass that it's going to be a strong contender for certain things in the future, but if they wish to make it attractive for people without the rose-colored shades they really need to work on the looks. And I fear that's not going happen; given how many of the core developers are die-hard BeOS-fans they will not want to 'tarnish' it with some fancy effects or more modern looks.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Strain
by matako on Sat 21st Aug 2010 14:54 UTC in reply to "RE: Strain"
matako Member since:
2009-02-13

Well... Haiku's app_server is themeable to a certain degree (Decorators).

But as there is no 3D acceleration, most of so called modern effects are simply not practical and it is actually better to keep things simple.

Considering that GUI is not accelerated I'd say it looks quite ok and professional.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Strain
by StephenBeDoper on Sat 21st Aug 2010 23:09 UTC in reply to "RE: Strain"
StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

I have to agree here: I only tried some trial version of BeOS years and years back and never used it for more than a few minutes so I lack the feelings of nostalgia. With the rose-colored shades of nostalgia missing I can only say that Haiku looks plain hideous to my eyes.

Yes, technology-wise it's got enormous amounts of potential and I can bet my ass that it's going to be a strong contender for certain things in the future, but if they wish to make it attractive for people without the rose-colored shades they really need to work on the looks.


I don't think that nostalgia is the sole (or even primary) driving force behind retaining the BeOS visual appearance in Haiku. Minimalism was always one of the main design (and philosophical) goals behind the OS - a minimalist, understated interface is consistent with that.

Of course, aesthetic preferences are just about the most subjective & widely-varying opinions that people can have. Even leaving aside nostalgia, I find that the mix of subtle/understated UI & clean but slightly-cartoony graphics is easier on my eyes than just about any other UI I've used.

To me, that says that the visual designers paid close attention to detail - but they also had the restraint to avoid going completely overboard with gratuitous visual effects (as opposed to effects that serve a useful purposes, E.g. to enhance usability by giving better visual feedback).

And I fear that's not going happen; given how many of the core developers are die-hard BeOS-fans they will not want to 'tarnish' it with some fancy effects or more modern looks.


Actually, there's been significant discussion among Haiku developers about visual changes to the OS - just not for R1. E.g. there's a "Glass Elevator" sub-project that's been around almost since Haiku's inception, with the goal of more long term, "forward looking" changes after the immediate goals of R1 are met:

http://www.haiku-os.org/glass_elevator

And there already have been a number of visual changes to Haiku that, while subtle, are immediately-obvious to any long-time BeOS users. And unlike much of what I saw of ZETA, the changes have all been for the better (at least to my eyes).

There is a general perception that, because they're recreating an "old" OS, they must be die-hards who are clinging to the past, etc. But I don't think that the age of the OS is very useful indicator on its own - for one, in many ways BeOS was quite advanced for its time and had features that have only recently become common in mainstream OSes (IIRC, "future-proofing" the OS was one of Be's goals). And every indication I've seen is that that the Haiku devs are entirely realistic about changes that the OS will need if it's going to have any viable future.

Reply Score: 8

RE[3]: Strain
by WereCatf on Sun 22nd Aug 2010 05:52 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Strain"
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

I don't think that nostalgia is the sole (or even primary) driving force behind retaining the BeOS visual appearance in Haiku. Minimalism was always one of the main design (and philosophical) goals behind the OS - a minimalist, understated interface is consistent with that.

Could be, or could be not. I don't frequent Haiku-related boards or follow their discussions elsewhere, I've just stumbled across a few blogs and a few discussion threads every now and then and in those I've seen lots of people with those rose-colored shades screaming murder at every idea regarding enhancing the looks of the UI. So yeah, I admit that I might have just been looking in the wrong place and gotten the wrong impression but that's how it is.

Of course, aesthetic preferences are just about the most subjective & widely-varying opinions that people can have. Even leaving aside nostalgia, I find that the mix of subtle/understated UI & clean but slightly-cartoony graphics is easier on my eyes than just about any other UI I've used.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with liking such style. People have different tastes and all that. I was just saying that I doubt the common populace will find Haiku's looks pleasing and will call it ugly or out-of-date.

I, too, find Haiku hideously ugly, but as I said, I really like the underlying technology. I do wish the devs luck with the project and I hope to see Haiku going strong for years to come.

but they also had the restraint to avoid going completely overboard with gratuitous visual effects (as opposed to effects that serve a useful purposes, E.g. to enhance usability by giving better visual feedback).

There's plenty of ways to enhance visual feedback without going overboard, and I agree to an extent: all those glass-effects in Win7 are rather annoying. Such gimmicks are mostly useless from usability standpoint.

But well, let's see...I use Compiz under Linux and I have configured this one plugin so that the windows lose opacity and color saturation the longer they are idle. Ie. a window that I haven't used for a while only has 20% color saturation and 80% opacity. On the other hand, the window I am using has 100% opacity and 100% saturation, and any windows I have just interacted with has the same. Hardly a gimmicky eye-candy effect, but gives plenty of useful visual feedback. Though of course, not everyone would like it.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Strain
by smashIt on Sun 22nd Aug 2010 09:11 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Strain"
smashIt Member since:
2005-07-06

Hardly a gimmicky eye-candy effect, but gives plenty of useful visual feedback. Though of course, not everyone would like it.


you never had a document open on the second screen while working with something on the first one, do you?

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Strain
by WereCatf on Sun 22nd Aug 2010 10:16 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Strain"
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

you never had a document open on the second screen while working with something on the first one, do you?

Umm. What does that have to do with the example I gave?

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Strain
by Valhalla on Sun 22nd Aug 2010 13:29 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Strain"
Valhalla Member since:
2006-01-24

you never had a document open on the second screen while working with something on the first one, do you?

Umm. What does that have to do with the example I gave?


I think he means that sometimes you need to have a full opacity view of windows that aren't active (like if you are using another window's content as reference for something, not exactly a biggie though since these effects are/should be easy to turn off).

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Strain
by Valhalla on Sun 22nd Aug 2010 13:42 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Strain"
Valhalla Member since:
2006-01-24


I, too, find Haiku hideously ugly, but as I said, I really like the underlying technology. I do wish the devs luck with the project and I hope to see Haiku going strong for years to come.

Well, I can't say I find it hideously ugly, but I can't say I find it particularly visually pleasing either. That said, I doubt that this has been any kind of priority with the development team apart from Stippi adding some gradients and a nice set of svg icons. I'd wager that once Haiku get's 3d acceleration (through Gallium most likely) we will see more entusiasm/effort going in to modernizing the look of the gui. Also there are the aforementioned decorators which allows third parties to customize the GUI and thus allowing for 'themes' to be made. As for the menu system, sure it may take nesting to the extreme, but seriously who launches their apps from the menu other than in extreme cases these days? I use shortcuts/launch icons for practically all the non cli apps I use and I doubt I am the exception. Currently the focus is on providing a stable, capable and performing system, once that is in place then making a better looking gui will be a piece of cake in my opinion ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Strain
by WereCatf on Sun 22nd Aug 2010 14:59 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Strain"
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

As for the menu system, sure it may take nesting to the extreme, but seriously who launches their apps from the menu other than in extreme cases these days? I use shortcuts/launch icons for practically all the non cli apps I use and I doubt I am the exception.

Truth be told, having the ability of using icons on the desktop is a really poor excuse for having a messed-up menu. First of all, if you happen to use lots of different applications and occasional gaming you'll end up with horribly cluttered desktop. Secondly, it still makes those cases where you have to dig in to menu any better.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Strain
by Valhalla on Sun 22nd Aug 2010 16:04 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Strain"
Valhalla Member since:
2006-01-24


Truth be told, having the ability of using icons on the desktop is a really poor excuse for having a messed-up menu. First of all, if you happen to use lots of different applications and occasional gaming you'll end up with horribly cluttered desktop. Secondly, it still makes those cases where you have to dig in to menu any better.


But is it so bad? I mean for things like applications/preferences (which is what you will most likely launch) it's not a hell of alot of menu nesting is it? Certainly no more than launching applications from the windows start menu unless I am mistaken?

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Strain
by axeld on Wed 25th Aug 2010 11:57 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Strain"
axeld Member since:
2005-07-07

I always wonder about comments like this about the right click navigation: it's an additional feature, it doesn't replace the other and usual means to reach your data or applications.

It's completely okay to dislike it, as no one forces you to use it. Just stay with what you know, other people happen to find this little feature exceptionally helpful at times.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Strain
by bogomipz on Tue 24th Aug 2010 17:27 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Strain"
bogomipz Member since:
2005-07-11

apart from Stippi adding some gradients and a nice set of svg icons.


Those are not SVG icons! Stippi didn't just design some of the icons, but also invented a brand new file format. And this was actually a quite important improvement! The HVIF, or Haiku Vector Icon Format, is so compact that the icon usually fits in the file's inode in the file system. This means that the icon data is right there when a directory is to be listed, without first reading the content of separately stored icon files, bringing very welcome speed improvements. Rendering HVIF is also much, much faster than rendering a general purpose vector format, especially SVG which is XML based.

Some details on the format;

http://www.haiku-os.org/articles/2009-09-14_why_haiku_vector_icons_...

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Strain
by koki on Sun 22nd Aug 2010 13:37 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Strain"
koki Member since:
2005-10-17

Very well said. The Haiku UI is not about nostalgia, but is simply a manifestation of living up to the BeOS philosophy of minimalism that is both pleasant and -- more importantly -- does not get functionally or visually in the way of the user.

Edited 2010-08-22 13:53 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE: Strain
by drcouzelis on Sat 21st Aug 2010 23:43 UTC in reply to "Strain"
drcouzelis Member since:
2010-01-11

"Is there a point to this project beyond the fun of doing it / nostalgia?"

Yes. I also have never used BeOS before using Haiku. Compared to other operating systems and user interfaces, I prefer to use Haiku. I like the consistency between applications. I like the responsiveness of the user interface. I like the clean look and nice default settings. I like the simplicity of installing and uninstalling applications. I find that the user interface better fits my work flow.

So the point of making Haiku is that, similarly to how not everyone wants to use iOS or Windows or Mac OS X or Linux, there are people who want to use an operating system like Haiku. Well, especially when it considered stable enough for an official release.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Strain
by The123king on Sun 22nd Aug 2010 20:40 UTC in reply to "RE: Strain"
The123king Member since:
2009-05-28

As another user of Haiku (Yes, i use it as my day-to-day OS where possible, i'm posting this from Haiku ;) ) I have to admit that the main reason i use it is because of it's UI and the general feel of using it.

The media-friendlyness and sub-10-second boot times help too.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Strain
by Morgan on Mon 23rd Aug 2010 00:27 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Strain"
Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

Ever since the emergence of netbooks I've been saying that Haiku would become the perfect OS* for such a device. The boot time, the rich multimedia capabilities and the ultra-low overhead all come together to make a great low-end netbook OS.

As much as I love OS X, I'd take an eeePC or similar with Haiku over a 12" PowerBook any day simply for the portability and speed, not to mention the price. A good condition used 12" PowerBook (the smallest Mac laptop ever made) can cost upwards of $400, and it is limited to running Leopard or outdated Linux distros. A netbook can multi-boot Haiku, Windows, Linux and/or FreeBSD resulting in a well rounded and very capable device for under $200 new.

Damn, now I'm itching to restart a project I had begun and abandoned several years ago: Putting BeOS r5 on a Toshiba Libretto 110ct laptop and getting all the hardware to work right. Looks like I'll be dusting off the r5 CD and trolling eBay tonight...



*I know it's not there yet; there are still a lot of issues to work out before it becomes a good mobile computing OS, not to mention a good desktop OS. Of most immediate concern to me is lack of wireless and accelerated video drivers. I haven't lost faith though!

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Strain
by The123king on Mon 23rd Aug 2010 09:37 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Strain"
The123king Member since:
2009-05-28

As a note to my previous comment, I run Haiku on both a Desktop system and an eeePC 901 successfully. The EeePC has reasonable graphics speed with the Intel Extreme graphics driver (I can comfortably watch video on it), and Wireless (WEP only ATM) is supported using the wifi card out of an old 701. It's enough to get by at home and on unencrypted wifi networks in town.

In general, Haiku supports all my systems very well out of the box. I've yet to have any real problems with Haiku when using it as my main system, apart from the lack of software (Outdated Bittorent clients and alpha quality messenger software abound)

Overall, the current state of Haiku is a very positive one. I've had terrible experiences with Linux, and have never really seen eye-to-eye with X, which puts me on a prejuciding foot when coming to UNIX-like systems. Haiku is a very capable breath of fresh air when it comes to open-source operating systems, and things like the Services Kit mentioned in the article are starting to push it in a more desktop-orientated direction, which i think UNIX-like OSes provide very poorly in

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Strain
by judgen on Mon 23rd Aug 2010 13:56 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Strain"
judgen Member since:
2006-07-12

About bittorrent, if you have Qt installed you can use the newer Transmission client with qt gui.
http://qt-haiku.ru/index.php?option=com_rokdownloads&view=file&Item...
Transmission 2.04

Released: 13.08.10
Seems to work very nicely.

But if you need a messenger client (as in msn messenger) i think you are out of luck.. allthough if you use ICQ, Jabber GTalk/Ya.Online/LiveJournal.com or Mail.Ru QutIM might do the trick for you.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by Michael Oliveira
by Michael Oliveira on Sat 21st Aug 2010 21:04 UTC
Michael Oliveira
Member since:
2005-07-07

The Haiku devs is doing the best they can. While we are thinking in "look-and-feel", and app level, they are thinking about multiple hardware to run the stuff, and make all more stable.

If you wants to go in a particular direction, please join, and contribute. Will be very appreciated.

Reply Score: 1

Funny how
by Tuishimi on Mon 23rd Aug 2010 01:20 UTC
Tuishimi
Member since:
2005-07-06

The topic of web services degraded to "I don't like how the window manager looks" and "the menus are too difficult to navigate" crap arguments.

I used BeOS for years and found it far superior to Windows and Mac OS at the time. If BeOS can manage to come to Beta, support all the modern networking requirements, I'd hop on board and develop apps for it - I assume others, old timers and newbies alike will do the same.

It has a wonderful, minimalistic interface that is functional, pervasive multi-threading, a great file system (maybe not the fastest, but great to work with), and the API was easy to work with as well.

I use Windows 7 and Mac OS X mostly these days, but I would trade all the glitz and glam in a heartbeat for a version of BeOS that had the look and feel of 4.5 and up that I could work on for web development.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by Michael Oliveira
by Michael Oliveira on Mon 23rd Aug 2010 04:38 UTC
Michael Oliveira
Member since:
2005-07-07

AFAIK, this is the first time that an Haiku/BeOS news stays on the top of screen for a whole day without any other news entry.

Speaking about UI, is very strange some Haiku users/developers talk against eye-candy stuff in the system, but praises the Win7 and OSX ones.

About Service Kit, the student don't mention any commit deadline..

Reply Score: 1

RE: Comment by Michael Oliveira
by Morgan on Mon 23rd Aug 2010 13:23 UTC in reply to "Comment by Michael Oliveira"
Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

Personally, I don't see a whole lot of eye candy in OS X, at least that isn't functional. Some examples:

Dock Magnification: Helps someone like me who has 30 or so dock icons to better see which one I'm trying to open.

Expose: I have it set to the upper right corner, and with a flick of the mouse I can see all the windows I have open. This is a useful and logical effect.

Spaces: I don't use it myself (I've never gotten used to multiple desktops) but OS X's implementation is less flashy than say Compiz on a Linux distro.

Stacks: Very handy for getting to all the other applications I don't have room for on the Dock; I changed it from Auto to List though, as it kept trying to do a grid and that was just too much for me.

There are many more examples but those are representative. Of course, there are also a few gratuitous and non-functional effects, such as translucent menus, minimize animations, window shadows, and my personal pet peeve, the translucent menubar.

Then there are some eyecandy-esque things that are missing, such as native window shading, that would make the UI even more intuitive.

I'm with you on the Win7 eye candy though. As much as I do like that OS (compared to previous Windows versions, anyway) I don't see anything remotely useful about fat, blurry translucent window borders and grossly oversized buttons. Don't even get me started on Aero Peek (why the hell would I need to see my desktop icons if I still have to minimize my open app to select them?), and Shake (it simultaneously vents and induces frustration, what a concept!).

I think the most useful new UI tweak in Win7 is the Snap feature; When I'm in 7 I use that all the time, and it's actually not that flashy.

Reply Score: 2

Wait and see...
by Neolander on Mon 23rd Aug 2010 09:00 UTC
Neolander
Member since:
2010-03-08

I don't know what to think about Haiku. Its APIs sound great, but when it comes to actually operating the system as a user, I always find it plain horrible (ugly, complicated and technical, small UI controls and heavy menu navigation just like in the 90s...). They achieve some great performance, but their goal of resurrecting BeOS sounds like an inability to accept its past failures. And so on...

I don't like to use this OS right now, and I don't want to code on an OS which I don't like. But still, I see some potential. So I'll just wait and see what it becomes as time passes...

Edited 2010-08-23 09:01 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: Wait and see...
by bryanv on Mon 23rd Aug 2010 13:48 UTC in reply to "Wait and see..."
bryanv Member since:
2005-08-26

The failure of BeOS wasn't one based on technical capabilities, or a lack of user desire for a solid computing platform with decent performance.

Reply Score: 3

Cool thread / frustrating thread
by AndrewZ on Mon 23rd Aug 2010 17:21 UTC
AndrewZ
Member since:
2005-11-15

This thread is both very exciting and very frustrating to read. It's exciting because it reflects the the fact that Haiku is nearing a tipping point. It's stable, the speed is good, Bugs are quickly fixed, lots of classic BeOS apps run fine, the development environment is mature, it's gaining visibility. That's all good.

But there is a lot of misinformation about Haiku. There is a lot of "arm chair quarterbacking" by folks who are interested but haven't taken the time to install Haiku and take it for a test drive. Like for instance: "and also adapt it to modern hardware."
Haiku runs fine a lot of modern hardware for basic purposes. Lots of drivers are supported. Here are instruction for installing Haiku as a dual boot. It also runs embarrassingly well on old hardware:
http://haikuware.com/wikis/doku.php?id=tutorials:install-haiku-besi...

The example of BeOS running many video streams without dropping frames is driving me crazy so let me address that. This was a great demo for 10 years ago. But just like the spinning teapot was cool, then wasn't cool, I think its time to find a better demo for Haiku.

What is the major strength of Haiku? It is the application APIs and the "mini" kernel. In operating systems theory class you learn about the trade-off between through-put and response time. An example of through-put is database transactions per second. Linux is very good at this, Solaris is/was best at this. Because the kernel was designed and tuned for throughput. BeOS was designed to be the best at quick response to user-centric applications. "It feels fast" means it responds quickly to GUI events. Why would one OS feel faster and not block on GUI operations? Because the application APIs and kernel were designed for minimal latency in the kernel.

These days I think you could probably play 6 or 8 video streams on Windows or Mac with no dropped frames. th4e hardware is so much faster and the video subsystems are much improved. It also not that exciting because how many videos do you need to play at once? Maybe 1 or 2. So playing multiple video streams on Haiku is no longer a great demo.

So what is a great demo on Haiku? I think we need some new ideas here. We need to write some applications that reflect what people do on PCs today AND use the application APIs to show it off in Haiku.

So I give this challenge: Write a simple app for Haiku and use the application API. It's fairly simple and very straight forward. There is an excellent tutorial for programming apps on Haiku. It starts with no assumptions in chapter 1, teaches you basic C++, and moves up to basic API/GUI programming by chapter 20. If you have never coded before but are interested, start here. If you are a seasoned coder but have never written a Haiku app, start here but skip ahead:
http://www.haiku-os.org/development/learning_to_program_with_haiku

I have more to say but maybe this is enough for one post.

Happy Haiku hacking

Reply Score: 4

AndrewZ Member since:
2005-11-15

OK, more responses to more comments.

"Do they have a goal for the final R1 release or is it more a situation of plodding along and focusing on the quality rather than an arbitrary time table?"
I used to ask the same question, when is the final release, so I can use it. After using Haiku A1 I was surprised at how much I could do. And with A2 now in the rear view mirror, Haiku is "good enough". There are a growing number of Haiku users who are switching to it for their daily use. Sure, these guys are early adopters but they are able to get their stuff done. The number of regular Haiku users is growing. You don't need to wait for R1. You can use it now.

"Does anyone know of their plans for LLVM integration?"
Grzegorz has done a proof of concept. But this does not have high priority. It doesn't add any functionality:
http://haiku-os.pl/node/1244

"With the rose-colored shades of nostalgia missing I can only say that Haiku looks plain hideous to my eyes. "
I would agree that the Haiku look is a bit dated. It needs to catch up to OSX and Windows 7 in several aesthetic areas. Until now the project has been focused on functionality, and rightly so. Better to get it working first, make it pretty second. One of the major strong points of Haiku is that you have a single C++ API. This means that Haiku GUI can be easily extended by refactoring the look and feel code. If someone with serious window manager chops wants to step up and become a hero, this task is waiting for you. One person could make a huge difference here and could make a real name for them self. Just do it.

"While its cool, video and audio editing on BeOS is joke. There are no applications that are good enough for professional work." I know of 3 audio editing apps that work on Haiku. 2 of them might be good enough for semi-pro work.
http://haikuware.com/directory/multimedia/audio/audio-editing/

There was commercial video editing app on BeOS but it is no longer supported. Writing a good video editor is a real challenge. I have seen numerous projects started and abandoned on Linux. It would be nice to see a basic video editor on Haiku. I wouldn't expect to see professional apps of any kind for a while yet. First we have to show clear advantages to using Haiku, then add lots of users, then come commercial apps. This is our next challenge.

"I haven't used their new web browser, but its lacking plug-ins and pixel32 wasn't really usable last time I tried it on BeOS."
Yes, not too many plug-ins. But WebPositive is surprisingly good. It lacks many bells and whistles but it is quite good at the basics, and quick. I ran Google apps with no problems. As for image editing, try a native app like ArtPaint:
http://haikuware.com/directory/view-details/multimedia/graphics/ima...

Edited 2010-08-23 18:15 UTC

Reply Score: 2

konrad Member since:
2006-01-06

One of the major strong points of Haiku is that you have a single C++ API.

Its still alot of C code there. I hope they change that in future versions.

I know of 3 audio editing apps that work on Haiku. 2 of them might be good enough for semi-pro work.
http://haikuware.com/directory/multimedia/audio/audio-editing/

Most of the apps are vapour ware. Cold cut was good though.

As for image editing, try a native app like ArtPaint:
http://haikuware.com/directory/view-details/multimedia/graphics/ima...

I runned them all. I used BeOS for maybe 6-7 years.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Cool thread / frustrating thread
by koki on Mon 23rd Aug 2010 18:11 UTC in reply to "Cool thread / frustrating thread"
koki Member since:
2005-10-17

The BeOS style multiple video demo is still VERY useful. The problem is that the purpose of this demo is misunderstood. This sort of demo is not meant to show the usefulness of Haiku, but to demonstrate the responsiveness of the system under heavy load, something which is at the heart of the Haiku user experience and that we seem to agree is a major strength of Haiku.

Look at it this way: running multiple videos w/o skipping a frame, while spinning the Teappot in a system that only has software opengl and runs in VESA mode video is a very effective way of showing how efficient Haiku is at using hardware resources. ;)

Reply Score: 1

AndrewZ Member since:
2005-11-15

OK, but the videos had better be interesting ;-)

Reply Score: 2

koki Member since:
2005-10-17

OK, but the videos had better be interesting ;-)


Of course! My favorite is the one that shows BGA giving his OpenBFS presentation at the Kansai Open Source Forum conference in Japan. Another one ranking high in the list of demo videos is JLG giving his speech of support to Haiku at our Google Tech Talk a few years ago at the Google headquarters in MTV. ;)

Reply Score: 1

smitty Member since:
2005-10-13

The BeOS style multiple video demo is still VERY useful. The problem is that the purpose of this demo is misunderstood. This sort of demo is not meant to show the usefulness of Haiku, but to demonstrate the responsiveness of the system under heavy load, something which is at the heart of the Haiku user experience and that we seem to agree is a major strength of Haiku.


The problem is that all the competition can do the same thing, so it's not really showing much that's unique. Unless maybe they can't on netbook hardware that's slow enough? I don't have a netbook to test, but certainly they all run with ease on a modern desktop.

I think a better strategy might be showing quick 30 second youtube clips, where you:

open a netbook and boot
start an email app
make a quick reply to someone
shutdown

all while a split screen shows another computer that is still trying to boot up.

I honestly don't see myself running Haiku on a desktop system anytime soon, but if it's really that quick then i think that could be a major selling point for people lugging around laptops, iPad clones, etc.

Reply Score: 2

koki Member since:
2005-10-17

The problem is that all the competition can do the same thing, so it's not really showing much that's unique.


The single most common reaction from first time Haiku users is a "wow, this thing is faster and more responsive than anything else I have ever used" type of comment. There is a reason for this. Windows, Linux and Mac users are used to sluggishness and the occasional choppiness in the interface, so they consider it normal.

Try Haiku on the very same hardware that you use your other OSes, and you will finally experience what having a responsive user interface really means. Only then will you come to the realization of how sluggish the other OSes actually are. This cannot be explained with words; you have to experience it, and once you do, I am pretty sure you will agree that it sucks to go back (to Windows, Linux, Mac, etc.). ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE: Cool thread / frustrating thread
by renox on Mon 23rd Aug 2010 22:36 UTC in reply to "Cool thread / frustrating thread"
renox Member since:
2005-07-06

The thing is: there's no easy way to measure responsiveness, otherwise it would easy to benchmark OS and to improve them..
*So* there's no easy way to demo responsiveness.
Still one possibility would be a 'split screen video': show some activity such as starting an application in parallel on Haiku,Windows,Apple.

Reply Score: 2

AndrewZ Member since:
2005-11-15

It might not be easy on Windows or OSX but applications can be scripted. On Haiku you can easily do application scripting with hey. Hey uses BMessages, another nice feature of Haiku:
http://www.birdhouse.org/beos/bible/bos/ch_scripting6.html

Reply Score: 2