Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sun 19th Sep 2010 21:18 UTC, submitted by gireesh
Mandriva, Mandrake, Lycoris It's been a troubling couple of weeks for Mandriva, but I decided not to report on it since I found it hard to unravel the events leading up to all this. Now, though, the story has come to its (logical) conclusion: now that most of Mandriva's employees have been laid off, they came together and forked Mandriva. Enter Mageia.
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Saddening
by WereCatf on Sun 19th Sep 2010 21:46 UTC
WereCatf
Member since:
2006-02-15

This was already on Slashdot a few days ago and I commented there too: I am saddened by these news. I've used Mandriva for years now and while I've tried several other distros I've always come back. Why? Because while Mandriva has its own share of quirks and rough corners the corners just don't seem quite as sharp and lethal as in other distros, ie. it just works generally more smoothly.

But now with the core devs gone Mandriva is more-or-less dead on its feet and I have to find another distro for me. And I have no idea what to migrate to :/ Mageia won't be useable for a good while still and who's to say that it'll even be as good as Mandriva was in the first place?

Reply Score: 4

RE: Saddening
by lordepox on Sun 19th Sep 2010 21:56 UTC in reply to "Saddening"
lordepox Member since:
2010-04-14

Mandrake -> Mandriva -> Mageia. What's next? This distro has brought a lot to the Linux community over the years, including a good portion of proper package management as we know it today. I used it back in the Mandrake days, and it was way ahead of it's time then, and stable as a rock. Visual package management was unheard of, but Mandrake had it. I think later distributions have a lot of homage to pay to this distro. Good luck.

Edited 2010-09-19 21:57 UTC

Reply Score: 6

RE[2]: Saddening
by JrezIN on Sun 19th Sep 2010 22:36 UTC in reply to "RE: Saddening"
JrezIN Member since:
2005-06-29

don't forget Conectiva too.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Saddening
by gnemmi on Sun 19th Sep 2010 23:34 UTC in reply to "RE: Saddening"
gnemmi Member since:
2006-08-17

... proper package management ...


That was something that Mandrake inherited from Conectiva, among many other things like a real, working, svn backboned distro development set of tools that made a sensible distribution development enviroment.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Saddening
by djame on Mon 20th Sep 2010 01:29 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Saddening"
djame Member since:
2005-07-08

"... proper package management ...


That was something that Mandrake inherited from Conectiva, among many other things like a real, working, svn backboned distro development set of tools that made a sensible distribution development enviroment.
"

At first they used cvs as everyone else, didn't they ? Maybe svn was used by connectiva, but one of the first things that comes to mind is the metapackaging system (task-* ), as long as urpmi is concerned, it existed long before the connectiva buy out. And talking about urpmi, people are always praising apt-get but urpmi is seriously cooler, you can even install package in // on mutliple machines.

sigh, I'm so going to miss Mandriva..

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Saddening
by gnemmi on Mon 20th Sep 2010 03:05 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Saddening"
gnemmi Member since:
2006-08-17

Maybe svn was used by connectiva,


No "maye" in there .. Conectiva was using svn long
before Mandriva ... and even before svn reached 1.0.

but one of the first things that comes to mind is the metapackaging system (task-* )


task-* metapackages were a Conectiva reality long before they made it into Mandriva .. actually metapackages were a part of a whole packaging scheme created around the idea of package "granularity" .. which was a Conectiva feature that slowly but steadily started to grow into Mandriva.

I'm so going to miss Mandriva..


And so will I.

Reply Score: 2

Argh, so unfair...
by djame on Sun 19th Sep 2010 22:40 UTC
djame
Member since:
2005-07-08

Mandriva is just the best distro out there... Just try to set up an internet sharing connection from ethernet to firewire (and I use that to connect my mac on this server to backup, firewire network are just way faster, anyway..) on ubuntu and you'll see what I mean....

on another notice, the original poster mentionned the incompetence of mandriva heads but what incompetence ? on generating less reviews, yes certainly.
Just compare the number of reviews any bsd distro or ubuntu get on osnews and just realize the number of reviews mandriva 2010 got, it's almost ridiculous. As long as Mandriva closed its US office a couple of years ago, its memento was gone for some reason. And it's the same for Opensuse anyway, they got far way less reviews, notes and buzz than Ubuntu.

So if Gael Duval ever reads that : go, get your company back and make it works even if that means unfair batlle with giant pocket billionairs.



Djamé

Reply Score: 10

RE: Argh, so unfair...
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 19th Sep 2010 22:53 UTC in reply to "Argh, so unfair..."
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

but what incompetence ? on generating less reviews, yes certainly.


How about wholly incompetent at running a business?

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Argh, so unfair...
by djame on Sun 19th Sep 2010 23:04 UTC in reply to "RE: Argh, so unfair..."
djame Member since:
2005-07-08

"but what incompetence ? on generating less reviews, yes certainly.


How about wholly incompetent at running a business?
"

You mean how about bashing them for failing where redhat, suse, xendros, linwin, gentoo and I can't remember who else failed as well ?
Come on, you know well that without the unlimited funding brought to ubuntu, there will be on the list too.

The problem is not on on how to build the best distro out there but how to build a successfull business model where "customer"'s alpha and omega seems to be "I want the best, I want it now and for free as in speech and as in beer. Please, I'm hurry otherwise I'll get your distro on bittorent and that's it"
So speaking of the incompetence of people who just tried everything as everyone else did is a bit unfair to me. it's like telling to people who can't fly that they suck big time because they can't do as well as superman or as the next billionaire who got some wings greffed on his back.

Edited 2010-09-19 23:06 UTC

Reply Score: 9

RE[3]: Argh, so unfair...
by sultanqasim on Mon 20th Sep 2010 01:19 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Argh, so unfair..."
sultanqasim Member since:
2006-10-28

Overall I agree with you comment, but I won't call RedHat a failure. They are a profitable company who build a solid product and earn hundreds of millions every year.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Argh, so unfair...
by djame on Mon 20th Sep 2010 01:22 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Argh, so unfair..."
djame Member since:
2005-07-08

Overall I agree with you comment, but I won't call RedHat a failure. They are a profitable company who build a solid product and earn hundreds of millions every year.


Sorry, I was talking about the desktop part of their activity. Now it's almost completely community driven in the Fedora project.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Argh, so unfair...
by google_ninja on Mon 20th Sep 2010 14:11 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Argh, so unfair..."
google_ninja Member since:
2006-02-05

so your argument is that since the business plan was impossible, the pursuit of the impossible shows competence in the management?

Part of being a good entrepreneur is knowing when to stop wasting your (and your investors) time and money, and move on to something that makes more sense.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Argh, so unfair...
by djame on Mon 20th Sep 2010 14:24 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Argh, so unfair..."
djame Member since:
2005-07-08

[q]so your argument is that since the business plan was impossible, the pursuit of the impossible shows competence in the management? /q]
no, I've never said that. I said that failing was not a sign of incompetence, therefore bashing them for that is just pointless.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Argh, so unfair...
by spiderman on Mon 20th Sep 2010 18:22 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Argh, so unfair..."
spiderman Member since:
2008-10-23

so your argument is that since the business plan was impossible, the pursuit of the impossible shows competence in the management?

Part of being a good entrepreneur is knowing when to stop wasting your (and your investors) time and money, and move on to something that makes more sense.

Except Mandriva is not a waste of money.
Maybe they didn't find a good business model, maybe it does not exist but Mandriva is definitely not a waste of money. They've moved the desktop forward and that is a great achievement. Making money is a necessary step to achieve their goals but their goal is not to make money. Maybe they didn't make enough money but the money they made has moved the dektop forward. Even if they can't make it any further they still had success.
"sense" != "money"

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Argh, so unfair...
by Soulbender on Mon 20th Sep 2010 15:24 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Argh, so unfair..."
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

for failing where redhat, suse, xendros, linwin, gentoo and I can't remember who else failed as well ?


Redhat and SUSE is still around and gentoo isn't a for-profit operation. As for Xandros and Linwin, well yeah,I guess they weren't good enough businessmen either.

The problem is not on on how to build the best distro out there but how to build a successfull business model


So you're saying that Mandriva's management is competent even though it didn't manage to create a sustainable business model? Hmmm....

So speaking of the incompetence of people who just tried everything as everyone else did is a bit unfair to me.


If everyone else has already failed maybe it's not the right thing to try. Again, that's what competent management is supposed to be able to figure out.

Edit: Ok, you're trying to say that failure != incompetence. Sure, but if you fail for an extended period of time with everything you try incompetence might be part of the problem.

Edited 2010-09-20 15:28 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Argh, so unfair...
by djame on Mon 20th Sep 2010 16:42 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Argh, so unfair..."
djame Member since:
2005-07-08

please if you're quoting me use full sentences otherwise people will think you're trying to have a point by extracting things out of their context.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Argh, so unfair...
by danieldk on Mon 20th Sep 2010 09:22 UTC in reply to "RE: Argh, so unfair..."
danieldk Member since:
2005-11-18

Yes they were. I remember being at a trade show (HCC Dagen for Dutch people) ~2000. I was there working at a stand of a Dutch software vendor/distributor. Mandrake flew in some person to sell their product at the same stand. The person was obviously overpaid, knew nothing about their product, and was more concerned about making foreign phone calls (which were expensive in the days).

The suits were brought into Mandrake to early, and they seemed to be mostly concerned with burning cash and doing suit-stuff. They didn't care about the Mandrake community, or too much about the technical side of the distribution.

Red Hat on the other hand, has been governed by enthusiasts for a long time. Sure, they were business people, but they loved the company and the product. And it shows. E.g., when they buy out a company, they are usually quick to opensource the 'intellectual property' and build a community around it. They know that open source software forms the genes of the company, and act according to that.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Argh, so unfair...
by jbauer on Mon 20th Sep 2010 09:46 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Argh, so unfair..."
jbauer Member since:
2005-07-06

Red Hat on the other hand, has been governed by enthusiasts for a long time. Sure, they were business people, but they loved the company and the product. And it shows. E.g., when they buy out a company, they are usually quick to opensource the 'intellectual property' and build a community around it. They know that open source software forms the genes of the company, and act according to that.


Yeah, and Red Hat also figured out a long time ago that you can't sell Linux to Average Joe. One would think Mandrake and others should have taken the hint by now.

Edited 2010-09-20 09:47 UTC

Reply Score: 2

v Linux distro #37264828737
by nt_jerkface on Sun 19th Sep 2010 23:04 UTC
RE: Linux distro #37264828737
by lemur2 on Mon 20th Sep 2010 00:39 UTC in reply to "Linux distro #37264828737"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

At some point there will be more Linux distros than users.


Oh dear, you aren't on about that again are you?

Here, do yourself a favour and do some reading:
http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2010/09/debunking-the-1-myth.html

If we do the math we find that due to netbooks alone Linux captured nearly 6% of the desktop market in 2009.


Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer. Using a slide to visualize OS market share Ballmer had Linux desktop market share as a slightly larger slice of the pie than MacOS.


Rather than simply believe whatever rubbish you are spoon-fed, educate yourself a little beyond what the media-marketing-powers-that-be want you to believe.

BTW: If you are having trouble deciding on a Linux distribution to use, just choose one upon which others base themselves. There are really only four choices: Debian, RedHat, OpenSuSe and Slackware.

ReHat is primarily for servers (use CentOS if you don't need paid support). SuSe is being sold. Slackware isn't all that user-friendly, and it is getting a bit long in the tooth now.

That leaves debian/Ubuntu. Debian is more stable in its "stable" long-term-support version (currently, this is Lenny), but less user-friendly and has less of a following, so online help isn't as prevalent. Use the MEPIS distribution if you opt for Debian, to help a bit in the user-friendliness department.

http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=mepis

The best choice for a Linux desktop at this time is thus, probably, Ubuntu LTS (aka Ubuntu 10.04, or Ubuntu Lucid Lynx). This distribution comes in KDE, GNOME, XFCE and LXDE flavours, going from the most powerful desktop down to the most lightweight. Choose one depending on the relative capability (or lack of age, if you will) of your hardware. If you have high-end or relatively recent hardware, and/or you are very familiar with Windows, then KDE will probably represent the best choice of desktop, otherwise choose GNOME unless your hardware is relatively old or under-powered, in which case the LXDE variant is probably your best bet ("Lubuntu" is the name of the Ubuntu variant you want for LXDE).

http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=lubuntu

Edited 2010-09-20 00:46 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Linux distro #37264828737
by WereCatf on Mon 20th Sep 2010 00:49 UTC in reply to "RE: Linux distro #37264828737"
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

Oh dear, you aren't on about that again are you?

Here, do yourself a favour and do some reading:
http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2010/09/debunking-the-1-myth.html


I don't think he was referring to the amount of people using Linux but instead to the huge amount of distros there are. Atleast it sounds like that to my ear.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Linux distro #37264828737
by lemur2 on Mon 20th Sep 2010 02:26 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Linux distro #37264828737"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

I don't think he was referring to the amount of people using Linux but instead to the huge amount of distros there are. Atleast it sounds like that to my ear.


nt_jerkface:
At some point there will be more Linux distros than users.


Linux distros ~= a few hundred
Linux (desktop) users (according to Ballmer): slightly > Mac Osx users ~= 7% of desktop users ~= (rough estimate) 35 million users.

35 million >>> a few hundred.

QED.

Edited 2010-09-20 02:33 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: Linux distro #37264828737
by flynn on Mon 20th Sep 2010 04:04 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Linux distro #37264828737"
flynn Member since:
2009-03-19

Linux distros ~= a few hundred
Linux (desktop) users (according to Ballmer): slightly > Mac Osx users ~= 7% of desktop users ~= (rough estimate) 35 million users.

35 million >>> a few hundred.

QED.


Stop taking everything so literally. His comment quite clearly meant that the last thing we need is an yet another linux distro. The numbers themselves are irrelevant, learn to hyperbole.

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: Linux distro #37264828737
by lemur2 on Mon 20th Sep 2010 04:35 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Linux distro #37264828737"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"Linux distros ~= a few hundred Linux (desktop) users (according to Ballmer): slightly > Mac Osx users ~= 7% of desktop users ~= (rough estimate) 35 million users. 35 million >>> a few hundred. QED.
Stop taking everything so literally. His comment quite clearly meant that the last thing we need is an yet another linux distro. The numbers themselves are irrelevant, learn to hyperbole. "

Who are you to tell me what to do? I know what his comment was meant to imply, and I refute it utterly.

Linux distro's are intended to cover different use cases, in order to make it un-necessary for users to have to identify their own set of packages with perhaps unfamiliar names.

Some examples:

For security (digital forensics, if you will):
http://distrowatch.com/?newsid=06276

Specialist distribution for use as a firewall:
http://distrowatch.com/?newsid=06280

Japanese language:
http://distrowatch.com/?newsid=06273

Boot from portable media:
http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=puppy

Home entertainment/TV:
http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=mythbuntu

Mathematics and statistics:
http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=scientific

System rescue / data recovery:
http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=systemrescue

Education:
http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=edubuntu

Audio, video & graphics:
http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=ubuntustudio

These are all based on the same few base distributions, and they are simply easy-to-install variations meant for different specific purposes.

Why shouldn't people have the choice of these distributions, and more, if they are found to be useful?

Edited 2010-09-20 04:37 UTC

Reply Score: 0

RE[6]: Linux distro #37264828737
by WereCatf on Mon 20th Sep 2010 08:53 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Linux distro #37264828737"
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

-- buttload of links omitted --

These are all based on the same few base distributions, and they are simply easy-to-install variations meant for different specific purposes.

Why shouldn't people have the choice of these distributions, and more, if they are found to be useful?


Well, there's for example a dozen distros all aimed for desktop use. Ie. they all cater to the same thing, yet there still exists so many of them. And worse, a billion *buntu versions.

I personally think it'd be better to have the base distro only, ie. Ubuntu, and copy the meta-package system from Mandriva; you'd just install Ubuntu, then install task-education and POOF! You'd have all the needed education apps installed for example. Then to polish the thing you could just include a menu-item which then presents the available metapackages, explains them and their meaning, and allows you to easily install them with one click. This'd allow for more unity as there'd only be one Ubuntu, there wouldn't be a need to maintain so many different spin-offs and the devs could instead focus on their respective meta-package, and it'd be simpler for end-users. Well, atleast I think that'd be a good route to take.

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: Linux distro #37264828737
by devnet on Mon 20th Sep 2010 13:26 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Linux distro #37264828737"
devnet Member since:
2007-01-16

So what you're saying is...have a small and stable base distribution. Then have task-whatever to install KDE or Gnome or e17 or LXDE, etc.?

Boy, wouldn't it be great if this existed and had the Mandriva Control Center?

Wait a second...it does exist ;) Unity Linux is Mandriva based and a core distribution aiming to be with 'just enough graphics' on first boot. It uses Smart for package management and then you just install task-whateveryouwant to get where you need to go. The devs there are ready for the fork as well and won't skip a beat. http://unity-linux.org

Reply Score: 4

RE[6]: Linux distro #37264828737
by flynn on Mon 20th Sep 2010 13:12 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Linux distro #37264828737"
flynn Member since:
2009-03-19

Who are you to tell me what to do? I know what his comment was meant to imply, and I refute it utterly.

You did not refute anything, you posted a bunch of numbers in response to a post that was never about numbers to begin with. Again, learn to hyperbole.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Linux distro #37264828737
by lemur2 on Mon 20th Sep 2010 13:53 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Linux distro #37264828737"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"Who are you to tell me what to do? I know what his comment was meant to imply, and I refute it utterly.

You did not refute anything, you posted a bunch of numbers in response to a post that was never about numbers to begin with. Again, learn to hyperbole.
"

You need to get off your high horse. The OP was indeed using hyperbole to try to make a point, but nevertheless the underlying point was wrong. Trying to be clever with wild exaggeration (hyperbole) shouldn't be allowed to become a vehicle via which it becomes possible to create an invalid impression.

Learn about the many techniques used to present false argumentation, and associated logical fallacies such as these (elements of which are present in the original post):

Style over substance fallacy
Bare assertion fallacy
Ad nauseam
Judgmental language
Appeal to tradition

and finally,
Proof by intimidation (which, BTW, is also what you are trying to do).

PS: I looked up the meaning of "refute" in the phrase "I refute it utterly". It transpires that the phrase does not mean what I had intended. I should have said "I dispute it utterly", so my apologies there. Mea culpa.

Edited 2010-09-20 13:59 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Linux distro #37264828737
by Bounty on Mon 20th Sep 2010 15:42 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Linux distro #37264828737"
Bounty Member since:
2006-09-18


Who are you to tell me what to do? I know what his comment was meant to imply, and I refute it utterly.

Linux distro's are intended to cover different use cases, in order to make it un-necessary for users to have to identify their own set of packages with perhaps unfamiliar names.



Ahhh, the old "I reject your reality and substitute my own" argument. Is it really better if you have to learn the name of the distro with your app, rather than the name of the app? What if you need to do math and multimedia? Do you dual boot?

What are the different use cases this fork came about for? Those who need an established floundering general purpose distro stay with Mandriva, and those who want a floundering general purpose startup go with Megia? Nice.

I think you would have been better of with a simple "I disagree."

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Linux distro #37264828737
by jbauer on Mon 20th Sep 2010 15:51 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Linux distro #37264828737"
jbauer Member since:
2005-07-06

Ahhh, the old "I reject your reality and substitute my own" argument. Is it really better if you have to learn the name of the distro with your app, rather than the name of the app? What if you need to do math and multimedia? Do you dual boot?

What are the different use cases this fork came about for? Those who need an established floundering general purpose distro stay with Mandriva, and those who want a floundering general purpose startup go with Megia? Nice.

I think you would have been better of with a simple "I disagree."


Yep. Distros and forks are made just because no one can prevent them, it's the nature of the open source beast. That doesn't sound nearly as planned and intellectual as "made to cover every possible use case", though ;)

Reply Score: 2

jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

What's this Ubuntu fork of Debian? The last thing we need is another distro.. oh.. wait.. turns out there was value in yet another distro.

Mandriva is floundering, what's wrong with the technology people who produced Mandriva producing a replacement for it?

Complaining about too many distros is like complaining about to many toothburshes to choose from at the store. A healthy market has choice and in a healthy market products fail and are replaced by competing products.

Reply Score: 4

Bounty Member since:
2006-09-18

What's this Ubuntu fork of Debian? The last thing we need is another distro.. oh.. wait.. turns out there was value in yet another distro.

Mandriva is floundering, what's wrong with the technology people who produced Mandriva producing a replacement for it?

Complaining about too many distros is like complaining about to many toothburshes to choose from at the store. A healthy market has choice and in a healthy market products fail and are replaced by competing products.


Now this is a response on it that I like. +1

Reply Score: 2

nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26


Complaining about too many distros is like complaining about to many toothburshes to choose from at the store. A healthy market has choice and in a healthy market products fail and are replaced by competing products.


Distros are not toothbrushes, they are software projects that require skilled contributers for which there is a limited supply.

It doesn't make sense to have so many of them working on distros whose differences could be encapsulated within themes and custom packages. I realize this is the nature of open source but that doesn't mean that Linux users need to be supportive of all these general purpose distros.

Reply Score: 2

jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

So it's about developer resources. Why allow developers to choose where they put there time and effort when you can just dictate that they all work on your pet project then? We'll just decree that Red Hat and any other distribution maintainer merge into one megacorp too then? We better tell the people behind Backtrack that they can't produce a superbe security distribution anymore because it's too specialized; it's not an assimilated part of "MegaLinux; the one true path".

Do we also decide that all those engineers wasting effort for different car companies need to consolidate and give us one standard car assembly to not quite fit everyone's different needs? How do we decide which product categories are allowed to have multiple models from multiple competitors and which are not?

See Linux Distributions are all different products from different companies. Red Hat and Ubuntu have very different target purposes though they happen to be inter-operable and assembled from similar commodity parts. "Linux" is not all one single product unless you really mean just the kernel alone.

The nice thing in all this is that resources are still shared where it counts. Red Hat and Canonical both contribute code back into the kernel and various other projects. We have a healthy market full of distributions to choose from while having competitors contribute to each other's base products. In terms of development effort, your concern, the workload is already shared.

Based on the license, one can't really remove the freedom to create a new distribution eiehr

Reply Score: 5

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Dude, it was a joke about the high number of Linux distros.
Jesus, stop being so uptight. What are you, an accountant?

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Linux distro #37264828737
by aesiamun on Tue 21st Sep 2010 15:20 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Linux distro #37264828737"
aesiamun Member since:
2005-06-29

Nope, just a pendant ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Linux distro #37264828737
by nt_jerkface on Mon 20th Sep 2010 06:35 UTC in reply to "RE: Linux distro #37264828737"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

Why do the most ardent Linux supporters seem to lack a sense of humor?

Here, do yourself a favour and do some reading:
http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2010/09/debunking-the-1-myth.html

Already did:
http://www.binplay.com/2010/09/yes-linux-really-has-1.html


BTW: If you are having trouble deciding on a Linux distribution to use, just choose one upon which others base themselves. There are really only four choices: Debian, RedHat, OpenSuSe and Slackware.


Again with the condescending attitude. I already have a favorite distro, thanks. It's called Clonezilla.
http://clonezilla.org/

For future reference you should probably assume that anyone who posts at a website called OSNEWS has tried a few Linux distros.

The best choice for a Linux desktop at this time is

I don't think Linux is ready for the desktop. I think it needs to bake a few more years before being pushed on the public. It's fine for servers and cell phones but on the desktop it still has too many rough edges.

Edited 2010-09-20 06:39 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Linux distro #37264828737
by lemur2 on Mon 20th Sep 2010 07:09 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Linux distro #37264828737"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"The best choice for a Linux desktop at this time is probably


I don't think Linux is ready for the desktop. I think it needs to bake a few more years before being pushed on the public. It's fine for servers and cell phones but on the desktop it still has too many rough edges.
"

Immaterial if you are trying to claim that Linux isn't ready for the desktop ... since about 7% of desktop users disagree with you.

So, for those who have not fallen for propoganda attempts at disparaging Linux, and who are aware of what contemproray Linux on the desktop can do and its realised quality, functionality, stability, performance, security and tremendous value-for-money, what is the best distribution?

That very much depends on what role you have in mind. People who are familiar with Linux already, and who have a definitive role in mind ... they do not need any such recommendation about which is the best Linux distribution for their purpose. They will already know.

So the question of "what is the best distribution?" for Linux on the desktop is typically asked by people who are new to Linux.

The assumption then would be that these people are after an easy-to-install Linux desktop that covers "typical" desktop usage patterns and which would be relatively easy to pick up for a person used to using Windows.

My suggestion, based on that assumption, would be for such people to try MEPIS or Kubuntu 10.04. If such a user were to install either of those, they would have a great experience, typically with no problems, and enjoy great software that did everything they wanted of it admirably well.

Mandriva would have been a reasonable suggestion also, but it appears to be running into some difficulty lately, as evidenced by this very thread topic, and so it is probably not such a good suggestion any longer.

Edited 2010-09-20 07:13 UTC

Reply Score: 2

nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26


So the question of "what is the best distribution?" for Linux on the desktop is typically asked by people who are new to Linux.


I have seen someone ask this question in a tech forum only to have a dozen people argue over the answer. That lack of consolidation is not going to inspire confidence.

Maybe you think having over a hundred general purpose distros is neat and that it doesn't matter if thousands of people are spending their time performing redundant package maintenance.

Ballmer probably thinks all that divided effort is pretty neat too.

Reply Score: 2

BallmerKnowsBest Member since:
2008-06-02

"
So the question of "what is the best distribution?" for Linux on the desktop is typically asked by people who are new to Linux.


I have seen someone ask this question in a tech forum only to have a dozen people argue over the answer. That lack of consolidation is not going to inspire confidence.
"

But does provide for an easy cop-out anytime someone criticizes Linux: "you're using the wrong distro/you should have used $pet_distro instead" (the standard Plan B when "blame the user" fails).

Maybe you think having over a hundred general purpose distros is neat and that it doesn't matter if thousands of people are spending their time performing redundant package maintenance.

Ballmer probably thinks all that divided effort is pretty neat too.


And I have it on good authority that he knows best.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Linux distro #37264828737
by marafaka on Mon 20th Sep 2010 09:13 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Linux distro #37264828737"
marafaka Member since:
2006-01-03

nt_jerkface: "I don't think Linux is ready for the desktop."

You are right, because Linux has no user interface. That's what distros are there for.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Linux distro #37264828737
by google_ninja on Mon 20th Sep 2010 14:24 UTC in reply to "RE: Linux distro #37264828737"
google_ninja Member since:
2006-02-05

re the 1% article, it was a great mix of common sense and downright stupidity.

He is right that the numbers don't add up. That's because that hitslink site is about what is actually being used, not what is sold or bought.

The over counting of windows is a new one to me, I would imagine windows dramatically under counted -- most corporate/governament networks are only visible to the outside world as a single IP addresses, and most corporate/governament networks are 100% MS.

Using sales numbers doesn't really mean anything. At my first job, I remember needing a few crappy machines for something. An IT guy brought me into a basement room filled with probably about 300 several years old NT4 machines. If you looked at sales stats, those all would have been considered windows machines. In this case, I have many friends who have netbooks, but they all installed either xp, windows 7, or osx on them. Hitslink would catch that, netbook sales numbers wont.

At the end of the day, the hitslink numbers should not be taken as gospel, but they are by far the most reliable actual usage numbers we can get.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Linux distro #37264828737
by Soulbender on Mon 20th Sep 2010 14:59 UTC in reply to "Linux distro #37264828737"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

I guess poking fun at Linux isn't very popular. I thought it was pretty funny but alas, I am not allowed to mod you up.

Reply Score: 2

Glad to see this fork, now we need Duval!
by cmost on Sun 19th Sep 2010 23:29 UTC
cmost
Member since:
2006-07-16

As usual, a large corporation takes over a Linux distro and then screws it up. While I'm not a Mandriva user, I am proud to say I got my start with Linux using Mandrake Linux. It was, at the time, the easiest Linux distro to setup and use. Nothing about that has changed today and Mandriva is as innovating as ever. I for one am happy to see that it will live on in the form of Mageia Linux. What would really be the icing on this cake is if Gaël Duval joined the developers of Mageia. Mr. Duval was always a force and champion of Mandriva and the distro suffered after he was essentially forced out several years ago.

Reply Score: 5

lezard Member since:
2005-10-11

From what I read, he's not really popular within former employees. I guess when you're supposed to lead community and you don't do anything for that, your popularity is taken away.

Reply Score: 2

Not a bad thing
by msahagian on Mon 20th Sep 2010 00:06 UTC
msahagian
Member since:
2010-09-20

I'm not sure why many people are seeing this as a bad thing. In my mind a fork might actually swing this distro back in the right direction. While I haven't used it personally since it was, if I recall, Mandrake 6, it seems to me like letting the core developers and community push it where the company would not might be just what it needs.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Not a bad thing
by WereCatf on Mon 20th Sep 2010 00:36 UTC in reply to "Not a bad thing"
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

I'm not sure why many people are seeing this as a bad thing. In my mind a fork might actually swing this distro back in the right direction.

Several reasons, really. One being that we have to migrate away from our existing Mandriva installations, which means having to reinstall the whole thing, all the apps and whatnot you may have there. Another that we'll have to use some other distro in the meantime while waiting for Mageia. Oh, and how about the stabilization time: I'll take atleast a year for Mageia to stabilize, and given how incredibly huge repositories there are for Mandriva it'll take a good long time for all that to appear for Mageia.

With all kinds of hurdles ahead of it, one of them being exactly the sheer amount of software they'll need on their repos, it'll take atleast 2 years before I can consider using it. That's the issue, really: Mandriva was usable now, Mageia isn't.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Not a bad thing
by UltraZelda64 on Mon 20th Sep 2010 06:21 UTC in reply to "RE: Not a bad thing"
UltraZelda64 Member since:
2006-12-05

I don't know... maybe it's just my opinion, but I think clearing a machine and starting over is actually a good thing. Cleans up garbage that's accumulated over time. If you have a separate /home partition, this is made even better; keep /home, but nuke the rest. I'm used to the Debian/Ubuntu way of package management, but I'm sure it applies to Mandriva as well: I can usually install re-install the typical programs and set up the system-wide configuration files in a tiny fraction of the time it takes to set up Windows machine. No endless updates/reboot sequence that's associated with a Windows machine.

I agree that it will take time to adjust and that the new distro will take some time to stabilize, but there are a couple of things to say about that. First, if what you have right now works and you don't need to have the latest and (supposedly) greatest versions of software, then why would you need to upgrade right away anyway? If you do want/need the latest, then yeah, you'll probably have to switch temporarily, but again--with a separate /home partition it's no big deal. And last, unless you run a business with dozens of machines to upgrade, this goes back to the first point: what's wrong with a good wipe for once?

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Not a bad thing
by WereCatf on Mon 20th Sep 2010 08:58 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Not a bad thing"
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

First, if what you have right now works and you don't need to have the latest and (supposedly) greatest versions of software, then why would you need to upgrade right away anyway?

For security fixes you need something that is stable and keeps updated regularly. And it doesn't seem likely that Mandriva will be able to deliver that for long now.

And last, unless you run a business with dozens of machines to upgrade, this goes back to the first point: what's wrong with a good wipe for once?

For some it's fun to try out stuff and reinstall every now and then, but personally I'd rather just keep what's working. Linux does not really accumulate unneeded cruft so there is really no benefit to wiping it out. The only "cruft" I have is in /tmp, /var/log and whatever is left by the package manager, and I don't quite consider log-files unnecessary cruft.

So, reinstalling would benefit me...nothing. But just take time and effort.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Not a bad thing
by Yagami on Mon 20th Sep 2010 08:59 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Not a bad thing"
Yagami Member since:
2006-07-15

yeah ... people love rewrites and cleaning and what not....

just dont release a 1.0 version with a bug or with a missing app ... OR THEY WILL KILL YOU, INSULT YOU, AND NEVER FORGIVE YOU

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Not a bad thing
by josi on Mon 20th Sep 2010 15:22 UTC in reply to "RE: Not a bad thing"
josi Member since:
2009-03-11

One being that we have to migrate away from our existing Mandriva installations,


No, I don't think you need to. If I have understood correctly, it will just be an upgrade like it usually is when upgrading to a new version.

The future Mageia distro is still being developed in *Mandriva* Cooker.

Don't make your up conclusions before the Mageia team have published more detailed plans.

Reply Score: 1

Tell me if my logic is wrong.
by John Blink on Mon 20th Sep 2010 04:14 UTC
John Blink
Member since:
2005-10-11

Employees sacked.

Mageia comes into existance.

Mandriva (the company), only needs to wait on new Mageia releases to create the next versions of Mandriva Linux.

Mandriva doesn't need to pay staff since they are now working on Mageia for free.

I don't like it. Sounds like someone is still getting away with something here.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Tell me if my logic is wrong.
by bryanv on Mon 20th Sep 2010 17:50 UTC in reply to "Tell me if my logic is wrong."
bryanv Member since:
2005-08-26

Only if the employees really are that stupid.

Reply Score: 2

John Blink Member since:
2005-10-11

Doesn't the GPL allow Mandriva to do exactly that?

Reply Score: 2

spiderman Member since:
2008-10-23

It does, but does it make sense to do that?
If Mandriva was the exact copy of another distro but released a little later, would you run it? Why not get rid of the lag and get the real thing? What is the point in running Mandriva when it is lagging behind another distro? And what is the point for Mandriva to copy another distro and call it Mandriva?

Reply Score: 2

Mandriva can die for all I care
by MadRat on Mon 20th Sep 2010 21:11 UTC
MadRat
Member since:
2006-02-17

When Mandrake Linux (soon to be Mandriva) bought out Lycoris and killed the BEST user-friendly desktop distribution out there it really saddened me for Linux in general. Here was a brilliant work of art snuffed with the stroke of a pen. Damn them for killing Lycoris.

Reply Score: 2