Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 21st Oct 2010 09:13 UTC
Mac OS X After the news that the new MacBook Airs do not ship with Flash pre-installed (which is news considering Flash has been part of Mac OS X for a very long time), we now have news that Apple is also taking what appears to be the first steps towards removing Apple's own Java runtime from Mac OS X.
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Apple drops Java Support
by kap1 on Thu 21st Oct 2010 09:34 UTC
kap1
Member since:
2006-05-12

Sad that Apple back stabs the java developers that have supported them over the years.

However bundled JRE with your application (OpenJDK?) seems like the way to go now, so no big loss.

Edited 2010-10-21 09:37 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Only as long as ...
by pica on Thu 21st Oct 2010 09:46 UTC in reply to "Apple drops Java Support"
pica Member since:
2005-07-10

... the App Store is optional.

In my opinion the optional App Store is only the beginning. As soon as the App Store is established it will become the only -- legal -- way to install applications.

pica

Reply Score: 2

RE: Only as long as ...
by apoclypse on Thu 21st Oct 2010 12:45 UTC in reply to "Only as long as ..."
apoclypse Member since:
2007-02-17

That doesn't really make sense. There are many multi-gig (sometimes in the hundreds) software out there that would be a pain to download, not to mention that many 3rd party applications have their own licensing schemes which Apple doesn't allow in the app store. Some of these 3rd parties may also not want the user to have the ability to install their applications on as many macs as they own. Adobe comes to mind, but more importantly (at least to me) you have production applications like Ableton, Cubase, even Logic. What do you do if you own a price of hardware that has its own software (like ProTools). Its scary, yes, because I know that is where Apple wants to go, but logistically I don't see it happening. The pro market would defect in a heart beat, but I guess Apple doesn't really care about that market as of late anyway.

I would definitely move elsewhere if Apple were to lock down the Mac, but to where? There is nothing like the Mac for music production, things run smoothly and there is almost never any issues with hardware or software unless a 3rd party isn't paying attention. I can't move back to Linux, because frankly the audio offering and audiostack in Linux sucks balls. Windows is an option but there are issues with hardware and the audiostack while nice isn't as simple to use nor is there anything like CoreMidi for Windows. In WIn7 its better and works pretty well, but it initially had issues when it came to pro audio work because MS didn't bother to test the stupid thing for that use case.

Almost every audio interface has their own set of drivers that may or may not work on your hardware/chipset/version of windows. You don't have to deal with that on a Mac, They generally stress manufacturers to use standard protocols and make it so simple for developers that for the most part most hardware is plug an play, no drivers required. Most of the time manufacturers are only installing helper applications to control the hardware. Nothing really compares to it for Music production, nor video as a I understand it.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Only as long as ...
by pica on Thu 21st Oct 2010 13:36 UTC in reply to "RE: Only as long as ..."
pica Member since:
2005-07-10

Maybe you will move if the OS X system it will be locked. Maybe a few others will move to. But even if 10% of the current users will move, the 30% Apple will charge of every single software licence will overcompensate this loss.

And another point which is unpleasant to read. So I guess, I will get voted down below 0 again.

I my opinion most Apple iPhone/iPad users use it because they feel comfortable, save in this locked down environment. They do not have to decide wether or not to use a specific application. An authority does this for them. They do not have to check if an application may contain malware. An authority does this for them. The lock in frees them from making decisions. From being responsible. Many, many people hate to make decisions or even more evil, to take responsiblity.

So I predicta locked down OS X will attract a damn lot of new users.

pica

Reply Score: 8

RE[3]: Only as long as ...
by segedunum on Thu 21st Oct 2010 17:45 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Only as long as ..."
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Maybe you will move if the OS X system it will be locked. Maybe a few others will move to. But even if 10% of the current users will move, the 30% Apple will charge of every single software licence will overcompensate this loss.

Look at the history of Mac OS. Windows and PCs ended up trumping it because the hardware was more ubiquitous and the applications that were developed for it were far more widespread with far fewer development restrictions. You're not going to attract developers and keep users like that.

In a way it's nice to see Apple repeating all their previous mistakes.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Only as long as ...
by Laurence on Thu 21st Oct 2010 13:48 UTC in reply to "RE: Only as long as ..."
Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26

not to mention that many 3rd party applications have their own licensing schemes which Apple doesn't allow in the app store. Some of these 3rd parties may also not want the user to have the ability to install their applications on as many macs as they own. Adobe comes to mind, but more importantly (at least to me) you have production applications like Ableton, Cubase, even Logic.

At risk of nit-picking, Apple own Logic. Have done since version 6 (hence why Logic switched to Mac only platform). So that specific example was a poor choice.
I would definitely move elsewhere if Apple were to lock down the Mac, but to where? There is nothing like the Mac for music production, things run smoothly and there is almost never any issues with hardware or software unless a 3rd party isn't paying attention.

Windows isn't so bad. As you already know, there's hundreds of professional VST(i)'s for Windows and most of the time it's as stable as the next OS. In fact, much like OS X, the only time I have problems with production on that platform is down to a poorly coded 3rd party plug in - which you meantioned above.


Almost every audio interface has their own set of drivers that may or may not work on your hardware/chipset/version of windows.

Never had that problem. Ever. Never even heard of other people having that problem aside a few users trying to run pre SP2 XP. But given the age of that set up, I don't think theres much room for complaint.


That all said, I'm far from loyal to Windows. Only use it for music production and DJing in Ableton - everything is done in Linux. So if I could justify the cost (it is only hobby after all) I'd buy a MacBook Pro just for Logic.


Off topic for a moment, but what sort of stuff do you produce?

Edited 2010-10-21 13:49 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Only as long as ...
by apoclypse on Thu 21st Oct 2010 19:22 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Only as long as ..."
apoclypse Member since:
2007-02-17

At risk of nit-picking, Apple own Logic. Have done since version 6 (hence why Logic switched to Mac only platform). So that specific example was a poor choice.


Its not a bad example at all because Logic still uses licenses per install and even if they were to change that, which may be the case, Logic Studio wouldn't fit well in the app store paradigm. Logic Express would however. I've used Logic since version 5 I know Apple owns it. It says Apple Logic on the box every time I buy a new version. ;)


Windows isn't so bad. As you already know, there's hundreds of professional VST(i)'s for Windows and most of the time it's as stable as the next OS. In fact, much like OS X, the only time I have problems with production on that platform is down to a poorly coded 3rd party plug in - which you meantioned above.


My issue is with the hardware drivers on the platform. ASIO while great performance wise is too close to the metal, imo and has issues when a company doesn't care. I'm looking at you Digidesing. See below for details. VSTs for the most part work the same across all supported platforms. Most developers abstract all that stuff anyway so that other than some feature differences even AU versions of their plugins work the same.


Almost every audio interface has their own set of drivers that may or may not work on your hardware/chipset/version of windows.

Never had that problem. Ever. Never even heard of other people having that problem aside a few users trying to run pre SP2 XP. But given the age of that set up, I don't think theres much room for complaint.


Well now you have. Let me tell you a story. My buddy who is a singer has as really niec Dell Studio XPS that he wanted to use to record his vocals on a couple of tracks we are working on. To get the best bang for his buck I directed him to Protools LE which with the interface is $299. Problem was that his device wouldn't work it, regardless of Digidesigns nee AVID's claims of compatibility with Win7 64bit, the stupid thing would BSOD the system consistently. Took it back to the dealer and had to deal with a 3 hour phone call with a rep to de-authorize the license to return it. It was a known issue. Now Digidesign is a special case in that this is what they do, their support is shitty which is not surprising when everyone swears by your shit even if it stinks (see Adobe). However its not limited to just Digidesign. If you do audio and want a low latency external device you are not going to go with USB, you will go with Fire Wire. FW chipsets on PCs vary greatly from cheap spec bait, to the real deal texas instruments chipsets which are recommended by most FW deive manufacturers. All macs with FW have the TI chipsets and have the least issues with FW, which consideirn its Apple's protocol shouldn't be a surprise.


That all said, I'm far from loyal to Windows. Only use it for music production and DJing in Ableton - everything is done in Linux. So if I could justify the cost (it is only hobby after all) I'd buy a MacBook Pro just for Logic.


I used to use Windows back when I used to use Reason heavily. I switched to a Mac because I wanted to keep using Logic.


Off topic for a moment, but what sort of stuff do you produce?


Well I move across a lot of genre's namely because I like some many things but, mainly Hip Hop, Dub, Dubstep, and a little bit of DB and Trance. I've been getting into other stuff as well. I also DJ.

My favorite toy right now is Maschine. Check it out.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Only as long as ...
by Neolander on Thu 21st Oct 2010 20:38 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Only as long as ..."
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

I'd add that Microsoft completely changed the way sound works in Windows Vista, switching everything to software rendering, which may explain some issues. Never totally understood why they did that while the thing just worked (sole possible clue being multiple user issues with Creative drivers) instead of fixing other things which didn't work instead...

Edited 2010-10-21 20:42 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Only as long as ...
by macinnisrr on Fri 22nd Oct 2010 14:32 UTC in reply to "RE: Only as long as ..."
macinnisrr Member since:
2009-11-12

Obligatory plug: dream.dickmacinnis.com
Music, Video, Graphics - check
Integrated JACK->Pulseaudio - check
Nice UIs that match the desktop - check
What more do you want?

Reply Score: 1

RE: Only as long as ...
by shmerl on Fri 22nd Oct 2010 16:15 UTC in reply to "Only as long as ..."
shmerl Member since:
2010-06-08

> In my opinion the optional App Store is only the
> beginning. As soon as the App Store is established it
> will become the only -- legal -- way to install
> applications.

If Apple will do this for desktops/laptops - it will signal the death of Macs. A crippled phone, which doesn't allow you to easily install what you want can be sold to some not too far sighted users, but a crippled desktop/laptop - is too much even for them.

Edited 2010-10-22 16:17 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE: Apple drops Java Support
by henderson101 on Thu 21st Oct 2010 11:33 UTC in reply to "Apple drops Java Support"
henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

Sad that Apple back stabs the java developers that have supported them over the years.


Before we all get hysterical, did you read carefully what the announcement says? It says:

The Java runtime shipping in Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard, and Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard, will continue to be supported and maintained through the standard support cycles of those products.


So, Java is going nowhere until at least Lion. By that time we will know if Oracle or the OpenJDK people will support Mac. Till then, we only have pure speculation.

Reply Score: 3

Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

OpenJDK already does support Mac.

http://wikis.sun.com/display/OpenJDK/BSDPort

I'm guessing this will get more attention now. However, those crazy people that used the Mac only Java Cocoa bindings are up a creek. However, they probably saw this coming years ago, due to the infrequent/non existent updates.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Apple drops Java Support
by TheGZeus on Thu 21st Oct 2010 18:05 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Apple drops Java Support"
TheGZeus Member since:
2010-05-19

They did.
A number of projects have already dropped Mac support, as they didn't want to waste time maintaining software for a system that doesn't want them.

I'm sure they feel quite pleased with their decision.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Apple drops Java Support
by Moochman on Thu 21st Oct 2010 19:58 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Apple drops Java Support"
Moochman Member since:
2005-07-06

Yeah, but supporting the Mac isn't the same as supporting the Mac.

To make it clear: Every non-Apple release of Java for Mac to date has been based on the X server. There are no native widgets, and most apps end up looking like complete ass.

So the current OpenJDK support for Mac is not a real solution by any stretch of the imagination, except maybe for server applications. Let's hope Oracle puts its Cocoa native widgets in a row, or manages to somehow get their hands on Apple's old code....

Edited 2010-10-21 20:02 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

Yeah. I know. That's the lack of Cocoa bindings.The real solution is to not have used the Apple Java in the first place.

I know it was tempting as it was a nice language, that many devs already knew and using it on a Mac with the Apple Java made the Java interfaces look good. An all time best for Java. But, it took them forever to release Java 6 for Apple. That should have been the signal to everyone that its future on the platform was not going to be long lived.

Java is now a Second Class citizen on the mac. Just like it is on every other desktop.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Apple drops Java Support
by 0brad0 on Thu 21st Oct 2010 23:09 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Apple drops Java Support"
0brad0 Member since:
2007-05-05

OpenJDK already does support Mac.

http://wikis.sun.com/display/OpenJDK/BSDPort

I'm guessing this will get more attention now. However, those crazy people that used the Mac only Java Cocoa bindings are up a creek. However, they probably saw this coming years ago, due to the infrequent/non existent updates.


There is "supporting" Mac and then there is supporting Mac. Read the page you linked to. There are no binary releases. How are people going to install this? duhhh.

Reply Score: 1

Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

Darwin/Mac OS X

There is an OpenJDK 6 package in MacPorts called openjdk6. To install it, after installing MacPorts, use sudo port install openjdk6 in the Terminal application.
If you do not see the openjdk6 port, try sudo port sync.
OpenJDK 7



Just a guess, but Uhmm dinosaurs! No, that's not right ... LaserDisc?? Yup, LaserDisc.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Apple drops Java Support
by JAlexoid on Thu 21st Oct 2010 22:36 UTC in reply to "Apple drops Java Support"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

Sad that Apple back stabs the java developers that have supported them over the years.

However bundled JRE with your application (OpenJDK?) seems like the way to go now, so no big loss.


Well they have been "stabbing" Java developers for, at least, 3 years now. Their distro of Java is late as usual.
And I remember that Jobs said that Macs would be the premier Java development platform...

Reply Score: 2

RE: Apple drops Java Support
by Deviate_X on Fri 22nd Oct 2010 11:38 UTC in reply to "Apple drops Java Support"
Deviate_X Member since:
2005-07-11

Sad that Apple back stabs the java developers that have supported them over the years.

However bundled JRE with your application (OpenJDK?) seems like the way to go now, so no big loss.


its quite funny since the java community are quite pro apple

Reply Score: 2

Would be a way to enforce ...
by pica on Thu 21st Oct 2010 09:40 UTC
pica
Member since:
2005-07-10

... the App Store rule: no Java

I think the rationale behind this rule is the "write once, run everywhere" nature of Java. Well done Java applications on run almost all platforms supporting a JVM.

So Java Applications are not Apple only ;-)

pica

Reply Score: 6

RE: Would be a way to enforce ...
by tetek on Thu 21st Oct 2010 09:45 UTC in reply to "Would be a way to enforce ..."
tetek Member since:
2010-10-04

This "write once, run everywhere" in terms of GUI is overestimated. Apps don't feel native. And as a user of mac I don't see many java apps those days. Not the good one anyway. If it isn't used - it probably will be removed. Like from windows.

Reply Score: 5

native GUI
by pica on Thu 21st Oct 2010 09:58 UTC in reply to "RE: Would be a way to enforce ..."
pica Member since:
2005-07-10

last time I tested a Java Application on OS X -- if I remember correctly it was 10.1 -- the Java default Metal look & feel was the only option. Well, I admit, to me it looked somehow strange on the OS X desktop ;-)

But the actual Windows and GTK+ (Gnome) look&feel options -- to me -- look and feel native.

pica

Reply Score: 2

RE: native GUI
by kaiwai on Thu 21st Oct 2010 10:04 UTC in reply to "native GUI"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

last time I tested a Java Application on OS X -- if I remember correctly it was 10.1 -- the Java default Metal look & feel was the only option. Well, I admit, to me it looked somehow strange on the OS X desktop ;-)

But the actual Windows and GTK+ (Gnome) look&feel options -- to me -- look and feel native.

pica


Take JEdit as one example - all the short cuts are set to ctrl instead of command on the Apple Mac; that is one example of why multiplatform applications using Java royally suck. There are numerous other examples, Netbeans, Limewire, Eclipse etc. There is always some quirk that makes it stand out like a sore thumb because at the end of the day if you try to be everything to everyone then you'll fail to satisfying anyone.

Reply Score: 6

What about vi ...
by pica on Thu 21st Oct 2010 10:15 UTC in reply to "RE: native GUI"
pica Member since:
2005-07-10

Apple ships OS X with vi included. So what about this Apple supported editor? Does it comply with the Apple human interface guidelines?

Sorry, but as a user of jEdit, Netbeans, Eclipse, ... I am very, very glad the key bindings is the same on all platforms.

pica

Reply Score: 1

RE: What about vi ...
by kaiwai on Thu 21st Oct 2010 10:26 UTC in reply to "What about vi ..."
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Apple ships OS X with vi included. So what about this Apple supported editor? Does it comply with the Apple human interface guidelines?

Sorry, but as a user of jEdit, Netbeans, Eclipse, ... I am very, very glad the key bindings is the same on all platforms.

pica


vi comes as part of UNIX and isn't covered by the Apple HIG therefore your point is invalid. I never attacked these applications I attacked the fact that if you're attempting to create a multiplatform application there will be problems in that those applications will not always conform to the way the environment operates. Sometimes those differences are trivial such as the look of the application whilst sometimes it can be critical such as having keyboard short cuts that don't conform to the convention of the OS.

The comparison to vi is stupid because vi is a CLI based application and netbeans/eclipse/jEdit are GUI based editors - and there is an HIG for that provided by Apple.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: What about vi ...
by pica on Thu 21st Oct 2010 10:53 UTC in reply to "RE: What about vi ..."
pica Member since:
2005-07-10

Admitted vi is a CLI based application. As a consequence the HIGs are not compulsory. But Apple has been completely free to add Apple key bindings to vi.

Apple did not. Why?

Simply because users of the vi expect vi to behave like vi.

I as a user of jEdit expect jEdit to behave like jEdit. I also expect Netbeans to behave like Netbeans. And so on.

If I want to use an editor which only exists on OS X, I will use neither jEdit nor Gnu Emacs. I intentionally mention the Gnu Emacs editor to show non native key bindings are not Java's fault.

If I want to create applications, which are garanteed to run only on OS X, I won't use Java ;-)

pica

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: What about vi ...
by TheGZeus on Thu 21st Oct 2010 13:52 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: What about vi ..."
TheGZeus Member since:
2010-05-19

Word.

Reply Score: 2

v RE[2]: What about vi ...
by TheGZeus on Thu 21st Oct 2010 13:51 UTC in reply to "RE: What about vi ..."
RE: What about vi ...
by pmac on Thu 21st Oct 2010 15:15 UTC in reply to "What about vi ..."
pmac Member since:
2009-07-08

There's no inherit reason why they couldn't be made to use the apple key in the mac version. Java is capable of doing it, so it's not java's fault!

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: What about vi ...
by jack_perry on Thu 21st Oct 2010 16:15 UTC in reply to "RE: What about vi ..."
jack_perry Member since:
2005-07-06

In fact, the Mac version of jEdit does allow one to do this. It may not be the default (& my iBook is at home, so I can't check it now), but it is possible, if only through customizing the shortcuts, which is available under Utilities->Global Options...->Shortcuts.

Reply Score: 3

RE: What about vi ...
by MysterMask on Fri 22nd Oct 2010 18:41 UTC in reply to "What about vi ..."
MysterMask Member since:
2005-07-12

Sorry, but as a user of jEdit, Netbeans, Eclipse, ... I am very, very glad the key bindings is the same on all platforms.


???
No, they are not. I don't know about jEdit or Netbeans. But for Eclipse, key bindings are different on OS X and Windows (e. g. Mac key bindings usually use [CMD] while the Windows counterpart use [CTRL]).

Furthermore, Eclipse honors platform specific bindings, e. g. the Mac version knows about the standard [CMD] [,] to open preferences (they even moved the preference menu entry to where you expect it on Mac OS).

This is certainly a good thing and it proofs that Java apps can be integrated quite well on every platform as long as developers are willing to do so.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: What about vi ...
by TheGZeus on Fri 22nd Oct 2010 22:19 UTC in reply to "RE: What about vi ..."
TheGZeus Member since:
2010-05-19

Maybe they share config files across different platforms?
I dunno, I gave up on Eclipse the moment I groked the basics of Emacs.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: native GUI
by spiderman on Thu 21st Oct 2010 12:14 UTC in reply to "RE: native GUI"
spiderman Member since:
2008-10-23

Java integration in MacOS X is 1000 times better than running a Windows application under wine. And running Windows application under wine is the only alternative to Java. Just face it, if a developer want to write an application just once, it will run on Windows natively and on Mac OS X under wine.
There is QT but QT requires compilation and most developers won't even bother to compile their app on MacOS X.

Edited 2010-10-21 12:16 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: native GUI
by MacMan on Thu 21st Oct 2010 13:41 UTC in reply to "RE: native GUI"
MacMan Member since:
2006-11-19

Same problem with QT applications, nothing really looks or fits right.

AWT/SWING Java applications are not great on OSX, but SWT based ones like Eclipse are actually pretty nice.

Interesting that about the only "cross platform" toolkit that works decently on all platforms in SWT which is Java based.

If coded correctly, the GUI should be a small isolated part of your application, and should be easy to write in the native toolkit for the platform, -- Windows/C#-Winforms, Linux/GTK,QT and Mac/Cocoa.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: native GUI
by kaiwai on Thu 21st Oct 2010 14:53 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: native GUI"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Same problem with QT applications, nothing really looks or fits right.

AWT/SWING Java applications are not great on OSX, but SWT based ones like Eclipse are actually pretty nice.

Interesting that about the only "cross platform" toolkit that works decently on all platforms in SWT which is Java based.

If coded correctly, the GUI should be a small isolated part of your application, and should be easy to write in the native toolkit for the platform, -- Windows/C#-Winforms, Linux/GTK,QT and Mac/Cocoa.


True, Lotus Symphony which uses Ecipse/SWT works really nicely on Mac OS X and the results are pretty consistent with the look and feel of the over all operating system. I've given the latest beta of Symphony a go so if one ever was to look for an alternative for Windows/Linux/Mac OS X, Lotus Symphony does a very good job at that.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: native GUI
by segedunum on Thu 21st Oct 2010 17:49 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: native GUI"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Interesting that about the only "cross platform" toolkit that works decently on all platforms in SWT which is Java based.

If you've taken more than a cursory look at SWT you'll find that isn't the case at all, especially if you look at SWT's still ample bug list.

Creating an environment that you have to specifically port to each and every single platform in every way, to run applications that should be the same on each platform, is hideously error prone.

The primary platform for SWT is Win32. Anything else is a bonus.

Edited 2010-10-21 17:49 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: native GUI
by lfeagan on Thu 21st Oct 2010 19:22 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: native GUI"
lfeagan Member since:
2006-04-01

As a long-time SWT-using programmer, I would say the platform that works best has been Linux, followed by Windows, and then Mac. The main issues I have had with my applications running across these platforms have been related to somewhat vague areas like trying to listen for hover-in/out events. Not all windowing systems have the same idea of what constitutes various ideas about hovering and when/if to notify.

On a related note, SWT on UNIX servers OSes (AIX, HP-UX, Solaris, etc) is painful at best, especially the systems that only have Motif.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: native GUI
by Koakuma on Thu 21st Oct 2010 14:50 UTC in reply to "RE: native GUI"
Koakuma Member since:
2009-07-02

Jedit kicks ass and allows me to be so productive that I couldn't/don't want to live without it.

The first thing I did was customize appearance, i.e gray font on black background with multi coloured syntax highlighting.

It doesn't look native, so what ? I don't care.
I don't spend my time looking at buttons or borders of windows

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: native GUI
by hohonuuli on Thu 21st Oct 2010 15:19 UTC in reply to "RE: native GUI"
hohonuuli Member since:
2005-11-23

Take JEdit as one example - all the short cuts are set to ctrl instead of command on the Apple Mac;


That is simply untrue. Your familiar key shortcuts that you use in other Mac apps work exactly the same in jEdit. (i.e. use the command key).

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: native GUI
by nemith on Thu 21st Oct 2010 16:24 UTC in reply to "RE: native GUI"
nemith Member since:
2005-07-28

I use Eclipse on both Windows and OS X and it works fine. Eclipse uses Apple style key bindings as well as the native look and feel.

The problem is not the language/run-time, but with the programmer.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: native GUI
by libray on Thu 21st Oct 2010 21:48 UTC in reply to "RE: native GUI"
libray Member since:
2005-08-27

Take JEdit as one example - all the short cuts are set to ctrl instead of command on the Apple Mac; that is one example of why multiplatform applications using Java royally suck.



I would love to make all applications on my Mac default to use >ctrl< rather than "command". It would make use of my 104 key PC keyboard much more useful. I have chrome and a few others set up this way. Maybe I'll give Jedit a shot. Thanks!

Next up, getting Terminal.app to use (In X terms) PRIMARY instead of CLIPBOARD.

Reply Score: 2

TheGZeus Member since:
2010-05-19

I should be the one to decide whether or not that matters to me.
Also, no one uses Swing any more, unless they're using Clojure.
Most people use the native toolkit for any given platform.
I'm no fan of the JRE's memory usage, nor of the Java language (though the bytecode spec is actually a reasonable Forth), but saying "well, it doesn't matter if they don't let you use it, because it sucks anyway" doesn't change the fact that this is anti-choice.

Reply Score: 1

Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

Your comment is very frustrating. The reason why I bought my JObs forsaken macbook, was because of the Java and python bindings for coacoa. You could write programs in either of those languages and get a native Mac look and feel. But, Apple ... just ... stopped ... upgrading those. So they really just suck now. They made some great promises about Java being a First class language, and they just let it die a slow death. Apple is a very frustrating company to depend on.

I suggest doing so, only if one has a high tolerance for hypocrisy and insanity. What is promised tomorrow may be forgotten today.

Reply Score: 6

TheGZeus Member since:
2010-05-19

What is promised tomorrow may be forgotten today.

Took me a second.
"Wait, wha- ...oh."
I'll have to remember that one, as I love getting that reaction out of people.

Reply Score: 1

nemith Member since:
2005-07-28

Actually the native look has been a part of Java for some time now. Gone are the ugly Motif style windows in OS X and Windows. Java easily does native style.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Would be a way to enforce ...
by pmarin on Thu 21st Oct 2010 13:52 UTC in reply to "Would be a way to enforce ..."
pmarin Member since:
2006-12-30

think the rationale behind this rule is the "write once, run everywhere" nature of Java. Well done Java applications on run almost all platforms supporting a JVM.

Well done Java applications are like unicorns, Have you seen one?

Reply Score: 1

TheGZeus Member since:
2010-05-19

OK. I loled.

Reply Score: 1

fatjoe Member since:
2010-01-12

Well done Java applications are like unicorns, Have you seen one?


yes, I stare at one everyday from nine to five!!

(please don't tell my boss that I play Minecraft at work)

Edited 2010-10-21 14:49 UTC

Reply Score: 1

fretinator Member since:
2005-07-06

Netbeans
Eclipse
Limewire
OpenOffice (uses JDBC)
Squirrel SQL Editor
JEdit
PGAdmin3 - Postgresql admin tool

And many more. People like to take shots at Java (just like they do at everything else), but you can create some nice tools.

One thing that truly rocks in Java is JDBC. It is so simple to connect to Oracle, SQL Server, MySQL, etc. Drivers are just jars that go with the app, so deployment is just drag-n-drop. No client libraries needed.

Reply Score: 7

Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

Those are useful programs, but (with the exception of Open Office), I'd prefer to use others that are not written in Java.

Its also a bit disingenuous to have Open office on the list, as it doesn't use Java for the parts of Gui, which is the part I complain about the most with Java programs.

Reply Score: 2

fretinator Member since:
2005-07-06

Its also a bit disingenuous to have Open office on the list, as it doesn't use Java for the parts of Gui, which is the part I complain about the most with Java programs.


I would have been disingenuous IF I had not specifically pointed out that it only used it for JDBC. I then went on to point out how nice JDBC is for connecting to databases (which is why OOO uses it). The point is that Java is useful for more than just desktop apps. I write a lot of database utilities and command-line apps using Java. It is obviously tremendously useful on the server side. I think people make a mistake of dissing Java because some of the apps aren't as pretty as others. I, for one, can't use a platform that doesn't support Java.

By the way, I think Eclipse and Netbeans are great-looking apps, but I'm a code monkey, so my opinion may not count.

Reply Score: 2

Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

FYI, I'm not talking about looks, rather performance. I've had the same problem with Eclipse, Net Beans, and other Java based IDE's. They are very susceptible to corrupted display problems, where part of the program will suddenly be displayed in a part where it shouldn't be.

Reply Score: 2

Java
by OSGuy on Thu 21st Oct 2010 09:53 UTC
OSGuy
Member since:
2006-01-01

so I'm not sure what would your options would be if Apple did remove the runtime altogether

I can answer that ;) Windows/Linux ;)

Reply Score: 6

RE: Java
by TheGZeus on Thu 21st Oct 2010 13:55 UTC in reply to "Java"
TheGZeus Member since:
2010-05-19

My answer to that would be "laugh".
"Well, sucks to be a user of that... Sucks more to be a programmer on any level."

Reply Score: 1

Comment by kaiwai
by kaiwai on Thu 21st Oct 2010 09:57 UTC
kaiwai
Member since:
2005-07-06

As of the release of Java for Mac OS X 10.6 Update 3, the version of Java that is ported by Apple, and that ships with Mac OS X, is deprecated.

This means that the Apple-produced runtime will not be maintained at the same level, and may be removed from future versions of Mac OS X. The Java runtime shipping in Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard, and Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard, will continue to be supported and maintained through the standard support cycles of those products.


Thanks for the heads up Thom - I'm not surprised about Java and Flash.

Java has been something I've never been able to understand as to why Apple continued to include it given that it seems to be like the neglected red headed step child of the family rather than something that Apple is really keen to support. Maybe the better thing for Apple to do would be to move their enhancements to the OpenJDK community and allow a third party to continue developing it with the occasional contribution by Apple. I just don't see any benefit to Apple of continuing to develop it given how so few people actually use it in the real world.

As for Flash, it makes sense though given the fiasco in the past of a combo update including an out of date version of Flash with it. Let the customer download and install Flash then let Adobe sort out how they're going to keep their customer up to date. Getting Flash out of the equation for Apple will also reduce the area of attack out of the box as well - its a win-win situation in the end. I wonder though whether it is possible, as part of the 'extension manager' that plugins can be managed and updated through something similar - that when a plugin bundle is installed that it is registered with Safari and there is a dialogue that tracks the version and detects whether there is a newer version available by checking the Adobe server (the details of the update server residing within the plugin bundle in some sort of XML format).

Edited 2010-10-21 10:00 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE: Comment by kaiwai
by fatjoe on Thu 21st Oct 2010 14:55 UTC in reply to "Comment by kaiwai"
fatjoe Member since:
2010-01-12

Your line of reasoning reminds me of that guy in the The Onions "new mac" joke:

"I never realized how much I hated keyboards"

Reply Score: 4

Down with Oracle
by LeeZH on Thu 21st Oct 2010 10:01 UTC
LeeZH
Member since:
2010-10-21

If this was done in protest to Oracle's patent troll-ish ways, I fully support this. The moment I read about how the Oracle lawyers lit up when they found out about Google's Dalvik, my respect for them has dropped sub-zero.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Down with Oracle
by No it isnt on Thu 21st Oct 2010 10:16 UTC in reply to "Down with Oracle"
No it isnt Member since:
2005-11-14

Don't be ridiculous.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Down with Oracle
by LeeZH on Thu 21st Oct 2010 18:55 UTC in reply to "RE: Down with Oracle"
LeeZH Member since:
2010-10-21

Yeah, on second thought, that comment was completely ridiculous. :/

Reply Score: 1

RE: Down with Oracle
by TheGZeus on Thu 21st Oct 2010 13:56 UTC in reply to "Down with Oracle"
TheGZeus Member since:
2010-05-19

You had respect for Oracle? ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE: Down with Oracle
by JAlexoid on Thu 21st Oct 2010 22:47 UTC in reply to "Down with Oracle"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

If this was done in protest to Oracle's patent troll-ish ways, I fully support this. The moment I read about how the Oracle lawyers lit up when they found out about Google's Dalvik, my respect for them has dropped sub-zero.

This has NOTHING to do with that. MacOS' Java was maintained by Apple.
And Apple would definitely be on the side of Oracle, considering that they aren't actually against software patents and going after Android themselves.

Reply Score: 2

Can I install it?
by elmimmo on Thu 21st Oct 2010 10:11 UTC
elmimmo
Member since:
2005-09-17

As long as I could install it, I could not care less whether it is bundled or not.

Unfortunately, Apple not maintaining theirs means we also loose their a-bit-less-indecent-than-others Java UI widgets.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by Kroc
by Kroc on Thu 21st Oct 2010 10:45 UTC
Kroc
Member since:
2005-11-10

The worst part of this is the thought that I might have to have Oracle’s Java Updater on my Mac. No, just no.

Reply Score: 1

I just wanted...
by thavith_osn on Thu 21st Oct 2010 10:53 UTC
thavith_osn
Member since:
2005-07-11

...to write a comment, then finish it with my name (which is already included).

thavith

Reply Score: 6

Oh
by thavith_osn on Thu 21st Oct 2010 10:55 UTC
thavith_osn
Member since:
2005-07-11

on topic...

I used to be a huge fan of Java, but over the years, I have lost considerable interest.

For Web dev, PHP and JS seem to fit the bill for most things and for native apps, if you write them in a MVC style, then Objective-C / C# / C++ or whatever does a fast and "more" native job, plus they are easy to install and maintain.

I love the Java language though, that is something I will miss as it slides into a deep deep sleep...

thavith

Reply Score: 1

Thank You
by Dr-ROX on Thu 21st Oct 2010 11:09 UTC
Dr-ROX
Member since:
2006-01-03

Less JAVA on the world makes the world a better place to live.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Thank You
by testadura on Thu 21st Oct 2010 11:45 UTC in reply to "Thank You"
testadura Member since:
2006-04-14

Parrots.

Lately it seems very popular to shout how bad Java is and that it will die soon.

You probably don't know how valuable it is in the enterprise. It is powering many crucial applications where availability and performance is crucial. Of course, for simple webapps it is not best option anymore. True. But banking systems, medical data systems etc. benefit from Java.

Performance and high quality software is possible in Java; but you need to know what you are doing. It is very easy to write crappy code that is very inefficient. And the development of other languages on the JVM (Scala/Groovy/JRuby) is also very valuable.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Thank You
by nt_jerkface on Thu 21st Oct 2010 12:25 UTC in reply to "RE: Thank You"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

It should be parroted everywhere that Java is a security risk.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/19/unprecedented_java_exploits...

OSX users should not have it installed unless they are using software that requires it.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Thank You
by testadura on Thu 21st Oct 2010 12:42 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Thank You"
testadura Member since:
2006-04-14

This is mostly due to a malfunctioning updating system for the JRE. Patches from long time ago still not made it to most JRE's installed on Windows.

Luckily, most linux distributions have a fancy package manager which keeps the JRE up to date and a security system which prevents root access to user processes.
Unfortunately most systems run Windows and form a great group of malware victims.

Besides this, I think Java's relevance on the desktop is very small compared to the server space.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Thank You
by spiderman on Thu 21st Oct 2010 12:48 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Thank You"
spiderman Member since:
2008-10-23

Luckily there are several JVM implementations on Windows, linux and MacOS X. The above mentioned vulnerabilities only affect Oracle's JVM.

Edited 2010-10-21 12:50 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Thank You
by morglum666 on Thu 21st Oct 2010 12:26 UTC in reply to "RE: Thank You"
morglum666 Member since:
2005-07-06

I agree whole heartedly with your sentiment.

While the technical user can configure *any* os to their choosing, there is a sad irony that Apple would rather you pay extra for a closed eco-system and beyond that they'd also like to choose how you use applications not found in the app store.

Apple - Have it OUR WAY.

In contrast, my Windows 7 laptop is beyond easy to use, supports a full eco system and doesn't require me to be locked into a single source.

Apple is a company that has mastered the UI and has excellent marketing. They are not your friend.

Morglum

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Thank You
by google_ninja on Thu 21st Oct 2010 13:13 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Thank You"
google_ninja Member since:
2006-02-05

no company is your friend, their only goal is to take your money.....

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Thank You
by TheGZeus on Thu 21st Oct 2010 13:57 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Thank You"
TheGZeus Member since:
2010-05-19

Thus I prefer to control the software myself.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Thank You
by thavith_osn on Thu 21st Oct 2010 13:08 UTC in reply to "RE: Thank You"
thavith_osn Member since:
2005-07-11

Yes, in the enterprise it is still doing a great trade, and will most likely continue to do so.

I was thinking in terms of it dying when it comes to the desktop, but for server side stuff, it's brilliant. Check out channels for io!!!

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Thank You
by spiderman on Thu 21st Oct 2010 13:17 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Thank You"
spiderman Member since:
2008-10-23

Have you played minecraft?

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Thank You
by Clinton on Mon 25th Oct 2010 05:57 UTC in reply to "RE: Thank You"
Clinton Member since:
2005-07-05

You probably don't know how valuable it is in the enterprise. It is powering many crucial applications where availability and performance is crucial. Of course, for simple webapps it is not best option anymore. True. But banking systems, medical data systems etc. benefit from Java.


I think that isn't so much because Java is great, but more because those industries simply won't switch from Java to something easier to work with because they are slow moving industries. I've worked at a couple of banks, and some apps are still written in COBOL, but that doesn't make COBOL a great language.

Performance and high quality software is possible in Java; but you need to know what you are doing. It is very easy to write crappy code that is very inefficient.


That's the problem with Java, I think. It is far too wordy and complicated, so developers (especially those new to Java) end up writing crappy code.

And the development of other languages on the JVM (Scala/Groovy/JRuby) is also very valuable.


I won't comment on Scala or Groovy, since I've never used them, but languages like JRuby and Jython exist due to ePenis envy on the part of Java developers since developing in languages like Python and Ruby is much more rewarding than developing in Java. ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Thank You
by werpu on Mon 25th Oct 2010 10:13 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Thank You"
werpu Member since:
2006-01-18

"You probably don't know how valuable it is in the enterprise. It is powering many crucial applications where availability and performance is crucial. Of course, for simple webapps it is not best option anymore. True. But banking systems, medical data systems etc. benefit from Java.


I think that isn't so much because Java is great, but more because those industries simply won't switch from Java to something easier to work with because they are slow moving industries. I've worked at a couple of banks, and some apps are still written in COBOL, but that doesn't make COBOL a great language.

Performance and high quality software is possible in Java; but you need to know what you are doing. It is very easy to write crappy code that is very inefficient.


That's the problem with Java, I think. It is far too wordy and complicated, so developers (especially those new to Java) end up writing crappy code.

And the development of other languages on the JVM (Scala/Groovy/JRuby) is also very valuable.


I won't comment on Scala or Groovy, since I've never used them, but languages like JRuby and Jython exist due to ePenis envy on the part of Java developers since developing in languages like Python and Ruby is much more rewarding than developing in Java. ;)
"

I am constantly switching between java and various scripting languages and have been working with both in bigger projects. I cannot agree here in any point. You save code on the scripting side at the first look, (I think the biggest code savers are mostly the dynamic delegation and method replacement which is woven into the language core in one form or the other) but on the other hand the dynamic nature enforces you to put your emphasis in coded typechecks and more unit testing than you do in a compiled statically typed language. If you omit that you run into a huge mess once the system becomes bigger due to the dynamic nature. Thats just how things are, you remove one safety net, which you then have to provide in your code, so the bigger the code the less productive you become and I think the productivity loss is bigger than in traditional languages in the long run per loc you produce.
The turning point I think is somewhere between 5000 lines of code and 10.000 (including unit tests in my experience)

As for the jython etc... me too argument I would not say it like that. Those languages benefit tremendously by being run in a jvm environment especially if they are compiled into class files instead of being run into an interpreter. You have a huge load of libraries which you instantly can use, the vm normally scales better than most native vms of the respective languages when it comes to multithreading etc...
After all the JVM has gone through tremendous optimizations over the last 13 years which make it very suitable for a server side environment.

Just my 2c of someone who does scripting languages as his bread and butter - living work.

Reply Score: 2

JRE
by henderson101 on Thu 21st Oct 2010 11:29 UTC
henderson101
Member since:
2006-05-30

Didn't Microsoft stop supplying the JRE as part of the OS some time ago? They also stopped producing their own version of the VM and SDK tools (okay, Sun was suing them over compliance, but that is beside the point..)

That Apple was still maintaining their own JDK and JRE was slightly insane, given the focus they put on Cocoa... So, Oracle is a big company. They'll either step up to the plate or ignore the Mac. Either way, someone will continue to support Mac via the OpenJDK.

Reply Score: 1

RE: JRE
by TheGZeus on Thu 21st Oct 2010 14:00 UTC in reply to "JRE"
TheGZeus Member since:
2010-05-19

(okay, Sun was suing them over compliance, but that is beside the point..)

Why is that beside the point?
I'm actually looking for an honest answer, because that's confusing. It's central to the issue at hand.


I think the reason people are worried is that it's another sign that they want iOS standards in at least what you can do by default. How many people that use this OS will know what a runtime is?

Reply Score: 1

Jailbreak
by righard on Thu 21st Oct 2010 11:44 UTC
righard
Member since:
2007-12-26

I don't like where this is going: I'm guessing that Apple will try to force a website that teaches how to jailbreak your Mac Book to shut.

Reply Score: 2

Disaster! No Less
by nicolaihenriksen on Thu 21st Oct 2010 11:45 UTC
nicolaihenriksen
Member since:
2010-10-21

It would be a complete disaster if Mac did not come with Java included.

ALL banks where I live (Denmark) require you to run Java applets for the web banking to work. Also the digital signature rolled out nationwide requires Java applets.

It would be a huge blow for most people and probably a show-stopper, i.e. most people would simply not buy a Mac if they cannot do their banking stuff right away without hiring a consultant.

- Nicolai

Reply Score: 3

RE: Disaster! No Less
by pica on Thu 21st Oct 2010 11:56 UTC in reply to "Disaster! No Less"
pica Member since:
2005-07-10

it's the same here in Germany. Also the german eGovernment guidelines force to use Java for eGovernment application whenever technically possible.

Also the european eGovernment guidelines promote Java, as well as the swiss ones.

pica

Reply Score: 1

RE: Disaster! No Less
by MacMan on Thu 21st Oct 2010 13:45 UTC in reply to "Disaster! No Less"
MacMan Member since:
2006-11-19

Apparently, Windows does not ship with Java installed, and it does not appear to be a "disaster" for them.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Disaster! No Less
by TheGZeus on Thu 21st Oct 2010 14:01 UTC in reply to "RE: Disaster! No Less"
TheGZeus Member since:
2010-05-19

They don't have an App Store.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Disaster! No Less
by fatjoe on Thu 21st Oct 2010 14:58 UTC in reply to "RE: Disaster! No Less"
fatjoe Member since:
2010-01-12

Apparently, Windows does not ship with Java installed, and it does not appear to be a "disaster" for them.


99% of times, it comes with JRE pre-installed. If not, you can download the JRE manually from java.oracle.com.

Please tell me, where can I download the latest JDK for mac??

Reply Score: 3

openJDK vs. Oracle Java
by sb56637 on Thu 21st Oct 2010 12:17 UTC
sb56637
Member since:
2006-05-11

Unfortunately, I don't think openJDK is a solution for many people who are forced to use a JRE for banking or government applications, as some of you mentioned. I recently had to run a Java program for work that did not behave correctly on Ubuntu + openJDK, but worked perfectly on openSUSE + Oracle Java. I wish it wasn't this way, but it looks like the Oracle edition is the Real McCoy.

Edited 2010-10-21 12:20 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: openJDK vs. Oracle Java
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Thu 21st Oct 2010 17:02 UTC in reply to "openJDK vs. Oracle Java"
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

That's really odd.
Open JDK 6 is mostly oracle JDK, with a few replacements for stuff sun/oracle doesn't ahve a licence to distribute source.

Open JDK 7 is oracle JDK. There will not be a difference. OpenJDK is the only Oracle approved path forward.

Reply Score: 2

Without java and flash, whats next?
by tecepeipe on Thu 21st Oct 2010 12:29 UTC
tecepeipe
Member since:
2005-07-07

What is the next step to remove from mac os? X11????

Shame on you apple!!!

10.6.4 it will look like the best version among others..

Reply Score: 2

Would be OS XI 11.x
by pica on Thu 21st Oct 2010 13:06 UTC in reply to "Without java and flash, whats next?"
pica Member since:
2005-07-10

as far as I know the X in OS X is the roman glyph for 10.

pica

Reply Score: 2

MacMan Member since:
2006-11-19

What is the next step to remove from mac os? X11????


Huh???


OSX does NOT ship with X11 pre-installed. X11 is installed via a package that you can get off either the developer disk, or internet (X.org).

Reply Score: 2

TheGZeus Member since:
2010-05-19

Actually, it's been part of the base system since Leopard.
It was an external package in Tiger and prior, though.

Reply Score: 2

TechGeek Member since:
2006-01-14

Actually X11 is installed by default now. So yes, it is included. And it wouldn't surprise me at all for them to remove it. Apple sucks that way.

Reply Score: 4

Does Windows ship with Java installed?
by MacMan on Thu 21st Oct 2010 13:07 UTC
MacMan
Member since:
2006-11-19

Reply Score: 1

adricnet Member since:
2005-07-01

MS Windows does not but many computer manufacturers have installed Java runtime as a service to their customers for years.

Much like the similar installation of Flash this has had good and bad effects.

Reply Score: 1

spiderman Member since:
2008-10-23

Microsoft supports its own competing .Net. Moreover Windows being the default OS installed in most desktop computers, Microsoft would like applications to be native. Microsoft does not like competition.

Reply Score: 2

fatjoe Member since:
2010-01-12

Yes, Microsoft supports its own competing dotnet technology more than Java. They do not however try to exclude Java from windows. (The same way they support Silverlight but have no problem with Flash on windows).

Reply Score: 0

Developers and users lose, Apple wins
by fran on Thu 21st Oct 2010 15:17 UTC
fran
Member since:
2010-08-06

If I can take a duuhh guess on why?

Java is cross platform. Apple is moving toward an exclusive and closed development enviroment.
People get used to that applications and won't likely switch operating system easily, because they dont exist anywhere else, if it did, it will be at the developers nuisance to crosscode.
The learning curve for example to switch form something like Logic to Cubase will be daunting given the learning curve of many applications.
Developers and users lose, Apple wins.
Hopefully I'm wrong.
This will definitely start to pay off for apple in say 6 years when I think ipad's will be capable of running at intel i3 speeds capable processors with on chip GPU's and SSD on the cheaper side, bringing full feautured, lower priced apple gear to the masses. Imagine you'll be able to plug your ipad into a external monitor making youre ipad an full feautured desktop also.
Imagine apple being able to cut ipads price because it make so much money from it's apps, music, tv and advertising. I think, whether we like or not apple is going to dominate if they play their cards right.
It will be hard for windows to compete.
It is difficult for windows to tread the anti trust maze because of its more open operating system, Windows will have to come with more bell and whistles if it is to compete in the near future. Maybe their they should start adding much more programs to Windows pro to ultimate then mere os enhancements.

Reply Score: 1

Who owns the computer?
by cmost on Thu 21st Oct 2010 15:54 UTC
cmost
Member since:
2006-07-16

To me, this is akin to an automobile manufacturer telling new car owners which radio stations they can and cannot tune into on their stereos. I'm not a Mac user but as an outsider this seems to be yet another example of Apple controlling how users interact with their own hardware. If one is leasing a computer, I could understand this approach but once you plunk down a considerable chunk of change (versus comparably equipped Wintel machines) then YOU get to decide how you view web content, not Apple. Is it still possible for users to install Flash and Java themselves (easily, without hacks) or is this functionality being culled from MacOS entirely? If the latter is true, then this is outrageous.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Who owns the computer?
by TheGZeus on Thu 21st Oct 2010 16:25 UTC in reply to "Who owns the computer?"
TheGZeus Member since:
2010-05-19

"If you can't open it, you don't own it."

Reply Score: 1

os x server
by broken_symlink on Thu 21st Oct 2010 16:01 UTC
broken_symlink
Member since:
2005-07-06

I wonder what this means for os x server? I assume that was the primary reason apple was maintaining java for os x anyway, and that since they had to maintain it for the server they might as well ship it for the desktop. Could apple possibly be looking to kill off os x server in the future as well then?

Reply Score: 4

RE: os x server
by TheGZeus on Thu 21st Oct 2010 16:27 UTC in reply to "os x server"
TheGZeus Member since:
2010-05-19

I think they don't care one bit about their server version, because if you want a Unix-based server OS, there are many alternatives, and if you're taking the time to set up and maintain a server, there's not huge increase in effort in setting up the OS.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: os x server
by JAlexoid on Thu 21st Oct 2010 22:53 UTC in reply to "RE: os x server"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

I think they don't care one bit about their server version, because if you want a Unix-based server OS, there are many alternatives, and if you're taking the time to set up and maintain a server, there's not huge increase in effort in setting up the OS.

These is the GUI sugar, for witch some idiot sysadmins fall...

Reply Score: 2

OpenJDK already runs on MacOS X
by phoenix on Thu 21st Oct 2010 16:08 UTC
phoenix
Member since:
2005-07-11

As far as I know, there's no alternative at this point, so I'm not sure what would your options would be if Apple did remove the runtime altogether.


http://landonf.bikemonkey.org/code/java/SoyLatte_Meets_OpenJDK.2008...

Although, I don't know how active the development has been since then.

Reply Score: 2

Choice of consumers
by jack_perry on Thu 21st Oct 2010 16:28 UTC
jack_perry
Member since:
2005-07-06

If Apple really does remove Java and work to exclude it, it suggests that they're making a conscious choice to focus on consumers of "consumer electronics devices", and not on traditional consumers of computers. Since iPhone & iPod users are the ones who have recently made Apple rich (or richer than they already were), this can be viewed as almost rational on their part.

But only "almost". Many users of Apple computers do in fact use Java applications (Jmol, jEdit come to mind) and a substantial proportion of Apple's computer base consists of people who don't buy their computers merely to interface to iPod, iPhone, etc.

That segment isn't a trivial proportion of the market, and Apple knows it, so I doubt very seriously that they will try to make the App Store the one-and-only stop shop for your application needs unless they have plans to relegate themselves to irrelevance on the desktop (which, who knows, they may). I would not be too surprised, on the other hand, if they work some sort of non-App Store software clause into their warranty.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Choice of consumers
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Thu 21st Oct 2010 16:48 UTC in reply to "Choice of consumers"
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

Yeah, thats what I've been trying to figure out how to explain.

Reply Score: 2

Who else produces their own Java?
by Adurbe on Thu 21st Oct 2010 17:24 UTC
Adurbe
Member since:
2005-07-06

I am surprised by the number of comment saying Java will die on the platform or be blocked or similar.. it seems quite a big leap!

Apple produce their own Proprietary implementation of the JVM
Microsoft used to, discontinued
IBM used to, discontinued

Oracle still do.. OJVM (also known as "JServer") - cant see it lating long!!

Why should apple go through the expense to maintain this JVM in house?
They are no longer PPC/OS9. They run on x86, using a UNIX. Surely it would be cheaper/more cost effective to switch to the (or One of 'the') open source implementations and contribute any changes they need to support the platform.

Edited 2010-10-21 17:25 UTC

Reply Score: 5

TheGZeus Member since:
2010-05-19

...and contribute any changes they need to support the platform.

Look at the KHTML/WebKit controversy to see why that's either not going to happen, or the project to which they contribute likely won't be that interested in their participation.

For all their talk of standards, they seem to want to be the only ones that define those standards...

Reply Score: 1

Adurbe Member since:
2005-07-06

Odd example to choose...

They got a healthy codebase and for 'little' extra work got a rendering engine to rival/surpass the competition at the time (FF and IE6)

Now the same engine is used by Apple, Rim, Nokia, Google and others.

Reply Score: 2

TheGZeus Member since:
2010-05-19

?
What does that have to do with contribution/acceptance?

I'm saying anything they do will be a fork. That's all.

Reply Score: 2

JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19


Apple produce their own Proprietary implementation of the JVM
Microsoft used to, discontinued
IBM used to, discontinued

Oracle still do.. OJVM (also known as "JServer") - cant see it lating long!!

IBM still has 2 JVM implementations - J9 and RT.
Oracle has JDK6(for now), JRockit and RT Java.
There are other JVM's out there...

Why should apple go through the expense to maintain this JVM in house?

Answer is simple - they have failed at it and they shouldn't.

Reply Score: 2

Adurbe Member since:
2005-07-06

you are correct re: IBM, I was referring to the IBM 32-bit SDK for Windows which stopped at 1.4 if memory servers. Was a bit to general in my comment though

Reply Score: 2

0brad0 Member since:
2007-05-05


Microsoft used to, discontinued
IBM used to, discontinued


Microsoft was forced to because of their own stupidity.
IBM still does.


Why should apple go through the expense to maintain this JVM in house?


Because no one else does.

Reply Score: 1

misterDuck
Member since:
2010-10-21

Swing applications look out of place on the Mac only if the developer didn't take the time to make it look native. With little effort, you can get as native as you'd like. See this application for example: http://www.solutionapp.net

If you look at the release note, they added a pretty sizable number of new features and hooks into native OS X mechanisms. I don't think they would have put that much work if they were going to just scrap it -- I think they will probably give the code base for Oracle to maintain.

Reply Score: 1

I'm out
by TomF on Thu 21st Oct 2010 19:10 UTC
TomF
Member since:
2010-01-22

I was planning a new macbook for x-mas...

no use to me without continued java support...

Reply Score: 1

OH well
by Drumhellar on Thu 21st Oct 2010 20:19 UTC
Drumhellar
Member since:
2005-07-12

Maybe it isn't an evil plot to further restrict OS X users' freedom on the platform.
Maybe, just maybe, only a minor percentage of Mac users actually care about Java.

I'm just saying that Java has such a small presence on the desktop that it's absence doesn't really mean much.

I reinstalled Windows about a month ago when I replaced my disk, and I only just now realized that I didn't install Java.

Reply Score: 2

I say good riddance
by Shkaba on Thu 21st Oct 2010 21:33 UTC
Shkaba
Member since:
2006-06-22

As a non Mac user I say good riddance. Java absence will/might hurt only Mac users and those developers who like taking risks in developing for Apple products. Java is irreplaceable in the middle tier, and will be so for a long time, for home users it's really a non issue, apart from java developers who could potentially miss on a feature or two. This move just gives a bit more credence to speculations about Apple moving in the direction of further lock down, and "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"

Edited 2010-10-21 21:48 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Lazarus /FPC - a really good alternative
by Aurawin on Fri 22nd Oct 2010 00:39 UTC
Aurawin
Member since:
2010-10-22

There is an alternative to Java on Mac. It comes with a "write once compile everywhere" mentality. And when it compiles - you actually get an executable not an interpreted bloated/framework/wrapped/always-changing/... well you get the picture :-)

Check out: http://lazarus.freepascal.org/

Just use latest and greatest version from svn for bleeding edge performance/components

- a dedicated/happy FPC/Lazarus user

Reply Score: 2

I really don't understand
by dvhh on Fri 22nd Oct 2010 00:48 UTC
dvhh
Member since:
2006-03-20

I am so confused, isn't webObject (one of Apple enterprise oriented product ) a J2EE server. And what about the scientific community (a good share of them use apple computer and most of the tools are written in java because of the runtime portability).

But anyway, seems like the iPhone and iOS restriction on 3rd party runtime was a gentle kick in the ball while Apple was preparing the sledgehammer. First they took care of flash then java.

And of course, as usual most of the mac user don't care, I surely hope for them that Oracle would move to provide them with a JRE/JDK.


One another point of view (maybe I should split my post here), Oracle have probably not renewed Apple's right to develop its own JRE (which is mightily plausible) and decided to make apple pay more or this right. But this is very hypothetical and nothing would back this theory. So for all apple haters : "go for it !"

Reply Score: 2

RE: I really don't understand
by btrimby on Fri 22nd Oct 2010 03:01 UTC in reply to "I really don't understand"
btrimby Member since:
2009-09-30

One another point of view (maybe I should split my post here), Oracle have probably not renewed Apple's right to develop its own JRE (which is mightily plausible) and decided to make apple pay more or this right. But this is very hypothetical and nothing would back this theory. So for all apple haters : "go for it !"


This is what I thought, too, upon reading the "the version of Java that is ported by Apple, and that ships with Mac OS X" part of the story.

Apple, quite frankly, has done a bad job of maintaining the JDK for their OS, and maybe Oracle doesn't want them dragging the Java brand down further than it already is with consumers.

I use eclipse on OS X 10.6. I have an MBP primarily because I write server-side Java and also Client-side C++ for Mac, Windows, and Linux.

Granted, who the heck knows what Apple is doing these days, so I also share the worry about Apple's goals here.

Reply Score: 1

RE: I really don't understand
by tyrione on Fri 22nd Oct 2010 03:19 UTC in reply to "I really don't understand"
tyrione Member since:
2005-11-21

I am so confused, isn't webObject (one of Apple enterprise oriented product ) a J2EE server. And what about the scientific community (a good share of them use apple computer and most of the tools are written in java because of the runtime portability).

But anyway, seems like the iPhone and iOS restriction on 3rd party runtime was a gentle kick in the ball while Apple was preparing the sledgehammer. First they took care of flash then java.

And of course, as usual most of the mac user don't care, I surely hope for them that Oracle would move to provide them with a JRE/JDK.


One another point of view (maybe I should split my post here), Oracle have probably not renewed Apple's right to develop its own JRE (which is mightily plausible) and decided to make apple pay more or this right. But this is very hypothetical and nothing would back this theory. So for all apple haters : "go for it !"


WebObjects is not being developed actively. It's in support contracts only.

If Apple is going to push WOF they'll have to refresh it's platform by restoring it's roots with Objective-C/Cocoa and make the circle complete inside the Apple Ecosystem.

Reply Score: 2

nope
by xaeropower on Fri 22nd Oct 2010 03:48 UTC
xaeropower
Member since:
2005-12-16

Whether they include java and flash or not they are still downloadable. They just mess with the enduser who wants out of box things. Even maemo has Icedtea ^_^

Reply Score: 1

Maybe
by J.R. on Fri 22nd Oct 2010 05:46 UTC
J.R.
Member since:
2007-07-25

Maybe Oracle will distribute their own Java... until Apple decides to lock down the Appstore as the only means of distribution.

Within 24 hours Apple introduced the iOS Appstore for OS X, made OS X look like iOS, stopped shipping Flash with their new machine (maybe this also will extend to the rest?) the macbook air, and deprecated Java.

I hope someone else see the warnings.

Reply Score: 2

Damn you, Steve.
by siraf72 on Fri 22nd Oct 2010 09:25 UTC
siraf72
Member since:
2006-02-22

As a dedicated Kool-Aid drinker, I'm very saddened by this. Stupid decision.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Damn you, Steve.
by henderson101 on Fri 22nd Oct 2010 09:34 UTC in reply to "Damn you, Steve."
henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

As a dedicated Kool-Aid drinker, I'm very saddened by this. Stupid decision.


Why? This is akin to back when Microsoft stopped supporting their own VM implementation. If Java is not Apple's focus, why not let a company (*cough* Oracle) take the burden? They are not "removing Java" they are simply saying "we are not going to make our own Java tools and VM". Oracle and the OpenJDK community could easily step up to the plate... If Apple were to open source their Java source tree, someone else could then take up the mantle.

This is all very "so, your technology failed to make inroads.. um... you can do all the donkey work now, we aren't interested in flogging your dead horse".

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Damn you, Steve.
by siraf72 on Sat 23rd Oct 2010 18:58 UTC in reply to "RE: Damn you, Steve."
siraf72 Member since:
2006-02-22

Because allot of developers use Java to develop applications. We use netbeans for our software.

Its not the end of the world but its bloody annoying.

Yes, somone *cough" Oracle _could_ take over, but frankly I think that's wishful thinking. Not sure how much incentive they have to do so.

Reply Score: 1

Update to saga
by Adurbe on Fri 22nd Oct 2010 11:36 UTC
Adurbe
Member since:
2005-07-06

Update from macrumors.com

One concerned Java developer from Portico Systems emailed Steve Jobs asking about Apple's future plans for the Java programming language and platform on Mac OS X. Jobs' reply was:
Sun (now Oracle) supplies Java for all other platforms. They have their own release schedules, which are almost always different than ours, so the Java we ship is always a version behind. This may not be the best way to do it.

Oracle supplies Java for all other platforms except for the Mac. Due to differences in release schedules, Apple's implementation of Java is always a version behind. Jobs indicates "This may not be the best way to do it." He stops short of saying that Oracle will be stepping up to fill the void, but suggests that would be a better solution. Oracle has made no public announcements about their plans.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Update to saga
by Sparrowhawk on Fri 22nd Oct 2010 15:26 UTC in reply to "Update to saga"
Sparrowhawk Member since:
2005-07-11

That's hopeful at least. I hope that that indicates that Apple will work with Oracle to get a decent set of native (ish) widgets on any future OS X Java implementation


Life without Netbeans for PHP on my MBP just isn't worth thinking about. ;)

If, and it's a big IF, if Lion ships with no JRE and IF there is no viable alternative, I'll have to consider switch to Linux. VM at first, until it's time to replace the hardware. I'd rather not though, truth be told (nothing against Linux, but I just really like OS X)

Reply Score: 1