Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 25th Oct 2010 21:43 UTC
PDAs, Cellphones, Wireless Well, this was inevitable. After Samsung and Sony Ericsson abandoning Symbian for their line of smartphones, and after Symbian Foundation executive director Lee Williams leaving the company for "personal reasons", there's now a report that the Symbian Foundation is winding down its operations, in preparation for closing up shop entirely.
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But... But....
by modmans2ndcoming on Mon 25th Oct 2010 23:47 UTC
modmans2ndcoming
Member since:
2005-11-09

Symbian is the most widely used and most popular smart phone OS in the world!!!

[/sarcasm]

Reply Score: 0

RE: But... But....
by flanque on Tue 26th Oct 2010 04:48 UTC in reply to "But... But...."
flanque Member since:
2005-12-15

Symbian ha(s|d) it's place but it just doesn't cut it anymore. Apart from looking and functioning like a dog, it just doesn't have the sparkle gluestick sheen needed by today's zomg look at my shinny toy generation.

Reply Score: 3

Misleading headline
by Moochman on Tue 26th Oct 2010 00:35 UTC
Moochman
Member since:
2005-07-06

In TFA it states that it is potentially "facing closure". Nothing is confirmed.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Misleading headline
by Thom_Holwerda on Tue 26th Oct 2010 00:44 UTC in reply to "Misleading headline"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Hence the "report", which indicates it does not have to be fact - it's just a report.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Misleading headline
by Moochman on Tue 26th Oct 2010 01:41 UTC in reply to "RE: Misleading headline"
Moochman Member since:
2005-07-06

Well, it seems to me that TFR did not actually report what you said it reported...

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Misleading headline
by segedunum on Tue 26th Oct 2010 18:21 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Misleading headline"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

In what way?

There's been personnel changes, there is a massive shortfall in funding and it is reported that emloyees have been offered redundancy packages. What more do you want?

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Misleading headline
by vivainio on Tue 26th Oct 2010 18:59 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Misleading headline"
vivainio Member since:
2008-12-26

There's been personnel changes, there is a massive shortfall in funding and it is reported that emloyees have been offered redundancy packages.


Refocusing effort that was previously split between MeeGo and Symbian (and MeeGo Touch + Orbit, respectively) to Qt Quick that spans both platforms is considered a positive thing for both MeeGo *and* Symbian.

If you think of Symbian as a way to get the Qt Quick development platform on cheaper phones with massive installed base, you've got a good head start in understanding why Symbian isn't quite as doomed as you may think.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Misleading headline
by Neolander on Wed 27th Oct 2010 05:04 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Misleading headline"
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

If you think of Symbian as a way to get the Qt Quick development platform on cheaper phones with massive installed base, you've got a good head start in understanding why Symbian isn't quite as doomed as you may think.

Exactly. If Meego wants to compete with android, iOS, etc... it will only run properly on 600€+ hardware too.

Let's face it : most people don't want to invest that much in a phone, even if it also replaces their TV and their microwave oven. With the current distribution of money, only a few percents of the population of the Earth can afford that. Like it or not, only Symbian runs properly on mid-end phones as of today.

Moreover, meego is late, and still has to gain some interest somewhere else than in geekdom.

Symbian allows precisely that : getting good applications for Meego before it's even out, to ease its adoption.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Misleading headline
by segedunum on Wed 27th Oct 2010 13:44 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Misleading headline"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Refocusing effort that was previously split between MeeGo and Symbian (and MeeGo Touch + Orbit, respectively) to Qt Quick that spans both platforms is considered a positive thing for both MeeGo *and* Symbian.

It's not entirely clear why Nokia needs two platforms, apart from flogging the Symbian horse to keep it going.

If you think of Symbian as a way to get the Qt Quick development platform on cheaper phones with massive installed base, you've got a good head start in understanding why Symbian isn't quite as doomed as you may think.

Sorry, but this is seriously misguided.

There is no 'installed base' of Symbian phones. The way phone turnover works is that people throw phones away and buy new ones with no reference to any applications or anything else that they ran on their old phone. This is not Windows on desktops. There's no way that Nokia is going to get an instant installed base for Qt Quick or anything else with people installing it on their existing Symbian phones. You make it sound as if that is something that will magically happen.

The problem for Nokia is that their 'installed base' really does count for nothing.

Edited 2010-10-27 13:46 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Misleading headline
by vivainio on Wed 27th Oct 2010 15:28 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Misleading headline"
vivainio Member since:
2008-12-26

There's no way that Nokia is going to get an instant installed base for Qt Quick or anything else with people installing it on their existing Symbian phones. You make it sound as if that is something that will magically happen.


It will happen through people downloading Qt programs from Ovi store. The trick is "smart installer":

http://wiki.forum.nokia.com/index.php/Nokia_Smart_Installer_for_Sym...

It downloads Qt from Nokia servers if the application to install requires Qt. This is managed by embedding the smart installer in .sis packages, so that it works on existing device base. I don't know the number of capable phones, but I know it's huge.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Misleading headline
by segedunum on Wed 27th Oct 2010 20:22 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Misleading headline"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

It will happen through people downloading Qt programs from Ovi store. The trick is "smart installer":

For all the existing Symbian phones that don't have 'Ovi store' support then it really is neither here nor there since you're not going to get those phones upgraded. The Symbian installed base counts for zilch.

In addition, the Ovi store is still very much in its infancy and at the moment is still a knee-jerk reaction to the iPhone and Android stores. Qt development for these phones is still a massive, tacked on work-in-progress and a long way from where the competition currently sits. Case in point:

It downloads Qt from Nokia servers if the application to install requires Qt.

It's only now that Android is catching up with the iPhone store application base. Goodness knows how a third store will fair with a work-in-progress development environment.

I don't know the number of capable phones, but I know it's huge.

Really? It's going to be a very, very small proportion of the current Symbian installed base. Only all but the very recent phones will be capable out-of-the-box, we've established that few existing phones will be upgraded in a throwaway market and remember that larger and larger chunks of that recent sales share are being taken by the iPhone and Android phones. Look at it that way and Ovi store support is already shrinking.

The point is that you've tried to argue that the Symbian installed base counts for something, but it really doesn't. We've also veered off-topic somewhat.

Edited 2010-10-27 20:23 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Comment by vivainio
by vivainio on Tue 26th Oct 2010 04:41 UTC
vivainio
Member since:
2008-12-26

Note that Symbian Foundation != Symbian.

Reply Score: 7

RE: Comment by vivainio
by Quake on Tue 26th Oct 2010 05:16 UTC in reply to "Comment by vivainio"
Quake Member since:
2005-10-14

Exactly, by this reports, Symbian might actually become "Nokia OS" so to speak.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Comment by vivainio
by JAlexoid on Tue 26th Oct 2010 13:41 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by vivainio"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

It effectively already is. Because everyone else has backed out of Symbian.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by vivainio
by segedunum on Tue 26th Oct 2010 18:38 UTC in reply to "Comment by vivainio"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Well, that's a bit thin since the two are inextricably linked. It raises a lot of serious questions about the future of the platform and whether Nokia is really contemplating going it alone.

Reply Score: 2

This is FUD.
by spiderman on Tue 26th Oct 2010 05:51 UTC
spiderman
Member since:
2008-10-23

Samsung did not stop supporting the Symbian foundation. Both articles you linked to are wrong (yours and the register)
BTW it was already pointed to you that your article about Samsung was wrong. You amended it a little but it is still wrong.

Reply Score: 2

RE: This is FUD.
by aliquis on Tue 26th Oct 2010 15:31 UTC in reply to "This is FUD."
aliquis Member since:
2005-07-23
axilmar
Member since:
2006-03-20

Linux is the best option for any new phone. It doesn't make sense for any company, including Nokia, to invest in anything else, since it takes gazillion dollars to develop such software.

Reply Score: 2

vivainio Member since:
2008-12-26

Linux is the best option for any new phone. It doesn't make sense for any company, including Nokia, to invest in anything else, since it takes gazillion dollars to develop such software.


Tell that to Google ;-).

Reply Score: 2

Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26

Tell that to Google ;-).

You mean Apple ;-)


Google's Android is still Linux - it's just not GNU/Linux.

Edited 2010-10-26 12:46 UTC

Reply Score: 2

axilmar Member since:
2006-03-20

Apple is successful not because of the iOS kernel - but because of the overall presentation of the phone, including the hardware. Android vendors failed to present a UI experience that matches or surpasses that of Apple. If Apple knows one thing is how to make UIs for the masses.

Reply Score: 2

Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26

Apple is successful not because of the iOS kernel - but because of the overall presentation of the phone, including the hardware. Android vendors failed to present a UI experience that matches or surpasses that of Apple. If Apple knows one thing is how to make UIs for the masses.

Now you're contradicting your original point!

Make your mind up - either smartphones need Linux or they don't.


Oh, and I'm fully versed in why the iPhone was a success. It's not exactly rocket science now is it.

Edited 2010-10-27 09:09 UTC

Reply Score: 2

axilmar Member since:
2006-03-20

Now you're contradicting your original point!
Make your mind up - either smartphones need Linux or they don't.


You are confused because you make the classic mistake of including the UI in the definition of 'Linux'. Linux is the O/S, i.e. the kernel and the drivers; it does not include the UI. There is no economic point in investing in another kernel/drivers combo.

The UI, though, that is offered with Linux O/Ses has to do a lot to catch up with the iOS devices or the UIs of desktop systems.

Reply Score: 2

Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26

You are confused because you make the classic mistake of including the UI in the definition of 'Linux'. Linux is the O/S, i.e. the kernel and the drivers; it does not include the UI. There is no economic point in investing in another kernel/drivers combo


No, you are the one who is confused because you're arguing against points I have never made.

In fact, I'm not entirely sure you're not intentionally trolling me. However - giving you the benefit of the doubt for now - I can assure you that I am fully aware of what Linux is thank you very much. I even stated in the very post you originally replied to: "Google's Android is still Linux - it's just not GNU/Linux.", thus demonstrating a working knowledge of the difference between Linux (the kernel) and Android / GNU (the userspace)


Furthermore, you're still missing the point / deliberately changing the subject away (depending on the intention of your tangent) from your original claim that manufacturers shouldn't bother with non-Linux platforms.



The UI, though, that is offered with Linux O/Ses has to do a lot to catch up with the iOS devices or the UIs of desktop systems

That's entirely a matter of opinion.

For example, I personally favour KDE4 over Aero and Aqua (or whatever OS Xs DE is called). But I know a number of people on here would see KDE as an inferior product to GNOME.

At the end of the day, it's just a matter of what works best for that user. As everyone is different, it stands to reason that different UIs are going to be better for different users. So stating that you're preferred UI is superior to mine smacks of little more than unproductive elitism.

Back on topic though (and as stated above) this is a tangent that has little to do with the point I raised against your absurd claim.

Edited 2010-10-27 12:13 UTC

Reply Score: 2

axilmar Member since:
2006-03-20

Holy attack, Batman!

My original claim is that manufacturers should not bother with non-Linux operating systems (i.e. kernel + drivers), not platforms.

For example, I personally favour KDE4 over Aero and Aqua (or whatever OS Xs DE is called). But I know a number of people on here would see KDE as an inferior product to GNOME.


I personally don't like Aqua or KDE4, but as you say, that's subjective.

What is not subjective though is the extremely successful Apple computing platform, and the UI takes a big role in that success.

against your absurd claim


What absurd claim? I stated the obvious: manufacturers should stick with Linux, the operating system (kernel and drivers) but write their own UI that rivals in quality the iOS UI.

If that is an absurd claim for you, then you clearly have no idea of what makes Apple a success.

Reply Score: 2

aliquis Member since:
2005-07-23

Yeah, and it worked great on PCs!

20.. whatever, is the year of Linux on the desktop!

Anyway, Nokia is already heavily invested in Linux on phones. And Symbian.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by miles
by miles on Tue 26th Oct 2010 11:52 UTC
miles
Member since:
2006-06-15

Since Fujitsu (and AFAIR another phone OEM - Sharp?) is building its next platform on top of Symbian, I wonder if Nokia could really take back Symbian development in-house. At least they'd have to keep the development in the open, and unless they just changed their company culture from open to closed overnight, I don't see them changing much to the way it's been developed till now.

They might want to get rid of the foundation though, since that entity has been nothing but slow and stuck in the old age.

Just for example, there's a bug open about providing a decent multi-language font for a start, so Symbian users can read SMS and emails using different character set than the phone's, and their answer was basically that it's the phone maker right to decide that, so they can lock users to a stupid last century mobile feature phone, when competing smartphone platforms make a point to let you use your phone for what you need it to do. Don't even talk about allowing the user to install different input dictionary or IM... if you need German, Chinese and Japanese you need to buy 3 smartphones, because it would be so bad if you could do that with only one. Same if you need Italian, Spanish and French.

I wish whoever ends up taking the shots understands what a modern mobile OS should be, instead of keeping them in that "middleware for feature phones" mentality.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Comment by miles
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Tue 26th Oct 2010 18:14 UTC in reply to "Comment by miles"
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14


I wish whoever ends up taking the shots understands what a modern mobile OS should be, instead of keeping them in that "middleware for feature phones" mentality.


It makes no sense for Nokia to do anything else but use symbian only for feature phones. Meego is the future on the high end, taking over the lower ends as time goes on.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by stare
by stare on Tue 26th Oct 2010 22:30 UTC
stare
Member since:
2005-07-06

Thom, I am disappoint ©

Since when osnews started using yellow journalism websites as news source? As expected, the linked story is false: http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/26/nokias-savander-the-symbian-foun...

Edited 2010-10-26 22:32 UTC

Reply Score: 3

I was kinda expecting Symbian to die.
by oiaohm on Wed 27th Oct 2010 22:10 UTC
oiaohm
Member since:
2009-05-30

It has failed to bring in a lot of new blood.

Also the Linux kernel has progressed a long way since when Symbian was released. The upcoming 2.6.27 yes I know 3 months off. The first that will build successfully without the Linux Big Kernel lock. Does not seam like a big change for phones until you work out one of the biggest blockers to Linux suspending has been that lock and not knowing if its locking a critical section that has to be waited for or not.

Removal of the Big Kernel lock is not the end of the Linux internal design clean ups.

Here is the point. Symbian has the advantage embed because it was highly clean internally. But now its getting highly dated. Linux is catching up.

Other major change for Linux is wayland. More and more tool kits are support it. Again this is Linux progressing more to being like the rest of the graphical.

Screen sync data now travel threw the Linux kernel API's. So code can be set only to draw to screen after a sync. Something other OS's have been able todo for ages.

Distance Linux has closed from a technical12 point of view in 12 months is massive. Then you compare it to how far Symbian has moved in 12 months. Biggest Symbian move was QT being its universal toolkit between Linux and Symbian. I am sorry that is not something to write as a living OS. Its more a move of OS that suspects it going to be dead.

Reply Score: 1

good bloody riddance
by lucifer on Thu 28th Oct 2010 06:52 UTC
lucifer
Member since:
2006-08-20

good bloody riddance. took those nincompoops long enough.

Reply Score: 1