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To answer the question: no one. Who are exactly the same group of people who bears the liability and risk for consumers, businesses and developers of H.264
That aside, nice use of a loaded question. What intellectual property issues do Microsoft believe require resolving here?
Nope, not at all:
http://www.mpegla.com/main/programs/AVC/Pages/FAQ.aspx
Q: Are all AVC essential patents included?
A: No assurance is or can be made that the License includes every essential patent. The purpose of the License is to offer a convenient licensing alternative to everyone on the same terms and to include as much essential intellectual property as possible for their convenience. Participation in the License is voluntary on the part of essential patent holders, however.
Patent holders can request damages for uses "up to now", and either licensing of the patent for the future or that the patented invention is no longer used.
How should anyone indemnify against that?
Patent holder comes up, requests gazillions of USD for the violations up to now from vendor (cut down to something slightly more reasonable by some judge) and that they cease to use the patent (for however long the patent continues to grant the monopoly).
So now the MPEG-LA not only pays for damages but also for lost income by its licensee because they have to stop using the licensed technology (eg. h.264)?
Also note that patent licenses need not be non-discriminatory: Some rogue patent holder could put mpeg-la licensees out of the market selectively (by refusing to license), while licensing its patent for others (even for free, except when doing business with the victim).
No, just... fighting to support something that doesn't want to support them, like classic Amiga users.
They exist, but there's no reason to hold back everyone else.
Hell, why would anyone use Internet Explorer in the first place???
Seriously, Microsoft doesn't care about XP any more, give it up. Leave Windows, or upgrade. It's over. The battle is lost.
... or run Opera, Chrome or Firefox 4 as your web browser.
No point talking to me ...I don't run XP. However a significant slice of those who access the web still do.
So. you knew about the alternatives, and don't use XP...
Just trolling, then?
I know people use XP. My statements on XP users still stand.
It's obsolete.
Should it be? Not my decision.
Not even the users' decision. It's Microsoft's decision, and it's each user's decision whether or not to use their software.
All of this is perfectly correct (except the bit about trolling).
However, your original comment which kicked off this whole sub-thread was, and I quote:
I see no problem.
My point was that your original claim was incorrect. The people left out are not simply those who you would label "cultists" ... there are also those people who choose to still use XP.
Funnily enough, these two groups, both those who you would label "cultists" and those people who choose to still use XP, still both comprise of people. Hence, there is a problem.
You see, my non-trolling interest is people ... not corporate profits but people, and their needs and interests. So there you go.
Edited 2011-02-03 04:08 UTC
Safari plays all its HTML5 media using QuickTime. Install a QuickTime component that supports WebM playback and Safari will play WebM video. Such a component has been available since August.
There is no real qualitative difference between how one can playback WebM in Safari or IE9.
Safari plays all its HTML5 media using QuickTime. Install a QuickTime component that supports WebM playback and Safari will play WebM video. Such a component has been available since August.
There is no real qualitative difference between how one can playback WebM in Safari or IE9. "
Apple is a culprit because of iOS, not because of OSX.
Apple is a culprit because of iOS, not because of OSX.
I am quite sure Apple will roll out support for WebM on iOS quite soon, but as they are so good at milking the cow they will only allow WebM on new hardware and using that as one of the selling features. You know the whole "Upgrade to the NEW iPhone 5 and get EVEN BROADER support for online videos" all the while deliberately not enabling the support on older devices.
Safari plays all its HTML5 media using QuickTime. Install a QuickTime component that supports WebM playback and Safari will play WebM video. Such a component has been available since August.
There is no real qualitative difference between how one can playback WebM in Safari or IE9. "
Apple is a culprit because of iOS, not because of OSX. [/q]
As I view high quality H.264 videos on my iPhone 4, the thought that Apple is 'a culprit' re iOS never crosses my mind.....only the satisfaction of a well-engineered solution that doesn't kill battery life.
It isn't a well-engineered solution at all if it doesn't accomodate a very large contingent of users (Windows XP users), and it doesn't allow one of the major browser writers (non-profit Mozilla) to implement a solution.
On your limited-size iPhone 4 screen, if a player (especially one with GPU hardware acceleration of rendering) were allowed:
http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Mozilla-releases-Firefox-4-B...
http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2011/02/latest-firefox-beta...
WebM videos would be rendered with every bit of the same quality as H.264, to the extent that you could not tell the difference in a blind test.
Edited 2011-02-03 11:46 UTC
It isn't a well-engineered solution at all if it doesn't accomodate a very large contingent of users (Windows XP users), and it doesn't allow one of the major browser writers (non-profit Mozilla) to implement a solution.
On your limited-size iPhone 4 screen, if a player (especially one with GPU hardware acceleration of rendering) were allowed:
XP is basically at end of life....Win 7 is the way to go on that platform. H.264 is just swell as baked into iPhone 4. WebM is not needed on my platforms of choice...ymmv.
http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Mozilla-releases-Firefox-4-B... href="tel:1182139">1182139.html
http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2011/02/latest-firefox-beta...
WebM videos would be rendered with every bit of the same quality as H.264, to the extent that you could not tell the difference in a blind test. "
Although it is absolutely true to make the observation that XP is basically at end of life, it doesn't matter that this is so.
The fact remains that about half of the web browser clients in use right now, today, are browsers installed under Windows XP.
http://gs.statcounter.com/#os-ww-monthly-201001-201101
Almost all of these users cannot play HTML5/h.264 web video.
If you were to serve HTML5/h.264 web video, that is a very large set of clients to miss out on.
It is a well engineered solution, the problem is legal, not technical.
However he does not have a hardware decoder for WebM in his iPhone, so his battery will last all of 5 minutes playing it.
How is Google's WebM not open? Not to sound like a Google fanboi, but thats a really stupid thing to say. WebM is under the BSD license meaning anyone and everyone can use it in any type of product. Just because Google is lax about working with the community has no impact on WebM being open. Now you could say Google is being a bad community member, but then again, they bought WebM and turned around and gave it away for free.
Yes because M$ are have the proprietry suckwarez ...
If you actually paid some attention to what Microsoft are doing with Web Development tools, they are doing some damn interesting stuff. However many on OSNews have a "Anything but Microsoft attitude".
http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/
Have a read. Some very interesting stuff that makes dev's lives easier.
Yeah, what is wrong with user installed software. Flash doesn't work out of the box in any major browswer either, but users still manage to somehow install it when it is needed. I do not see the problem the of having users download needed codecs, as long as the browser like IE9 (and my own Konqueror incidentily) just plays anything it has a codec for.
I _do_ see a lot problems in making browsers mediaplayers and ship mediaplaying capabilities with the browser.
I _do_ see a lot problems in making browsers mediaplayers and ship mediaplaying capabilities with the browser.
Note that IE9 won't actually play everything you have a codec for. MS is limiting it to only supporting their own h264 codec and Google's WebM codec. Anything else is ignored. That's probably a good decision on their part, considering all the buggy and security-hole ridden codecs the average user has on their machine.
Where does it say in the article that h264 makes use of DirectShow given that DirectShow has been deprecated in favour of Media Foundation?
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb970511%28v=VS.85%...
The Internet Engineering Task Force’s Web site warns people about referring to submissions like the WebM one as a standard: “some people refer to [these] as ‘standards’ even though the RFCs are not standards, usually to fool the gullible public about something that the person is selling or supporting.”
I disagree profoundly with this. It's either a misunderstanding/ignorant, or just plain lying. I'm sorry but the reference implementation's code is the standard, which is why it's so important the code is open. History is littered with examples, many from Microsoft, of what happens when the reference implementation doesn't exactly match the "standard's documents", or the specifics of everything aren't all documented. MS themselves have used these standards' holes to create deliberately incompatible versions of standards. Adhering to the letter of the standard, but not to the spirit of it ("Work-to-rule"). There is no shortage of standards that are documented one way, but everything does it another because that's what the reference implimentation does. This is much harder to deal with when the reference implimentation isn't open code, just ask the Wine/Samba guys. The best that can happen is the docs are updated to what the reference implimentation does, the other way round isn't going to happen. Google know this.
There is no shortage of standards that are defined by what the first implementation does. Much of POSIX is a massive example of this.
In short, think of the reference impliementations code as documentation so good, it can be compiled. ;-)
To me, all this comes under, "read the code, not the comments", the comments are just to help you read the code, not to be read instead. The code is king as that is what is run.
To be honest, doesn't matter what MS say now anyway, they know they have to have WebM. WebM now seams unstoppable.
eh? Plenty of different code that takes the same input and delivers the same output. Google's code's output from the input is the correct output. Just have to match it, looking over the source of google's code will help you, but you don't have to copy the code, though nothing is stopping you.
Not sure I agree, but comments, if they were written as they should be, are the first expression of the idea being implemented before code is written. We are humans before being coders and natural language text is closer to that condition than code. Not everybody, even amongst the most experienced read code like (or better than) they read plain text. At least for me, it's easier to read a two-line comment about what a function is supposed to do than to read its code, follow calls, deduce possibly wrong things because not all details are known, before understanding the intent.
Out of a recent experience, I think people excel at being bad at comments, that's why the code is still king and required days of reading before I had a good idea of what was of no interest at all. If you ask me, people are also bad at writing standards: I would only use MUST and MUST NOT, no should, may, etc. and include a way for each vendor/participant to implement extensions.
I have seen documents written before code, explaining what the project will be, why it's need, and very roughly how it will be done (I think any more then rough will be a lie, unless it's a clean-up rewrite). I have never seen comments written before code. What I have seen is code bases with no comments at all. Comments saying one thing when the code clearly does another, etc etc. I've seen code rewritten/refactored just so it was easier to read. In fact, I've done this more then a few times myself, often finding bugs while I'm at it (showing it needed doing). One code base from a few years back stands out in my mind where you literally couldn't read the code for the comments. It was like the result of interweaving a document and code. The best I've heard said is the "what" should be clear from the naming, the "how" should be clear from code, the "why", if not clear from the "what" and the "how" should then be documented. Sparingly one line comments in the code is ok, small blocks of comment above a function is ok, but don't obscure code with comments. Don't write documents in comments of code. Short and sweet is the key. Comments fall out of date quickly and soon become misleading. To me, the more the comments, the more it's saying refactoring is needed.
Some of us are dyslexic and find the code clearer than the comments. ;-)
Why do I feel like we mean the same thing? A wise man would say "probably because you do".
Just an addition: "Comments saying one thing when the code clearly does another" is the second biggest use I see to the comments (like the function comments I was referring to in my previous comment); the contradiction helps me find bugs! The first use I see: it helps me get down to the matter of interest faster and more easily.
I often write comments before the code...
You make an outline of comments, then you fill in the code between the comments, and it is essentially self-documenting as to what the code is supposed to do.
Obviously those aren't the only types of comments that there are, but I do that, and I know other programmers that do that too.
Usually I leave them. Those tend to be fairly short and non-specific as to the means. They say what it is doing, not how, so rarely need changed, since "what" a section is doing is usually pretty static. You may rewrite the whole thing three times, but the goal probably doesn't change.
In contrast, comments that say "how" or "why" something is done I usually add later in the process, are more detailed, and need updated more frequently.
Another reason to keep them in is they tend to be valuable down the road. Asking yourself, "Now what is this trying to accomplish?" is a recurring refrain for me when looking at old code, or someone else's code. It also helps in case the code starts to drift away from the comment... sometimes the code is actually what has gone wrong (wandered away from its original purpose) not the comment.
Edited 2011-02-03 23:26 UTC
They made it clear that they support WebM in IE9.
This would allow third parties like OEM manufacturers to bundle a WebM codec with the system, not unlike what they do with Flash player, Adobe reader, etc.
So for PCs you buy from a store, in the near future you can get Windows 7 with IE9 and WebM out-of-the-box.
It's only for those who buy retail where it's not, and you can't buy a retail copy of Windows with IE9 anyway.
I know there's little point posting my thoughts here, but that doesn't stop the rest of you, one-in-ten of whom actually have something valid and interesting to say. But I won't be hitting this site again, so I might as well say something before I go.
I can't pinpoint exactly when OSNews went from being an interesting little site to read about less mainstream OS developments, to an excitable Dutch teenager's blog, but over the last six months at least, the stupidity level of Thom's posts - especially with regards to standards - has gone off the charts. And the comments are even worse (except for mine of course; mine are as poignant and awesome as ever).
There's no evidence that any of you have any real understanding of how real modern media standards are actually established, by whom, or even why.
But I'll give you a hint - the process doesn't involve a raging battle between the forces of good and evil, nor is it about big organisations trying to f-ck over consumers.
If you seriously think that Google's play with VP8 is coming from anywhere other than a deep, abiding, almost autistic self-interest, then you are clearly on some serious drugs.
And not good drugs either - I'm talking the kind of stuff that's produced in prison toilets.
Namaste, you hopeless dicks.
Hank out.
Of course. Google's interest is in making the internet as strong as possible, because they realize that's where they make all their money - by enabling others to use the internet. (through search)
For that reason, they want to make sure that the next innovator (i.e. kid in a basement somewhere) is able to do whatever they want on the web, and not have certain things walled off only to existing parties who can afford to pay for all the licensing required.
The fact that Google has decided that an open video format is good for them doesn't mean it's bad for us - in fact it's actually great for us as well. The people it's bad for are those previously mentioned existing parties who have already invested heavily in the alternative. And perhaps very slightly annoying to the webmasters, etc., who have to keep track of all this.
Here is Google's license terms for WebM:
http://www.webmproject.org/license/bitstream/
"Google hereby grants to You a perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable (except as stated in this section) patent license to make, have made, use, offer to sell, sell, import, and otherwise transfer implementations of this specification"
In this context, "You" means everybody. Google garnts these permissions to everybody. BTW, the only way for anyone to lose these permissions (the bracketed clause after "irrevocable") is for someone to sue Google over WebM.
WebM is indeed in Google's self interest. However, Google doesn't happen to make money from charging people for video codecs. Rather, Google makes more money the more often and more freely more people use the web.
Happily, that means that insofar as WebM goes, Google's best interest, expressed quite succuinctly in the "perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free" terms of their license grant, happen to align exactly with the best interests of the overwhelmingly vast majority of people on the planet.
Edited 2011-02-05 13:05 UTC
Here is Google's license terms for WebM:
http://www.webmproject.org/license/bitstream/
"Google hereby grants to You a perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable (except as stated in this section) patent license to make, have made, use, offer to sell, sell, import, and otherwise transfer implementations of this specification"
In this context, "You" means everybody. Google garnts these permissions to everybody. BTW, the only way for anyone to lose these permissions (the bracketed clause after "irrevocable") is for someone to sue Google over WebM.
WebM is indeed in Google's self interest. However, Google doesn't happen to make money from charging people for video codecs. Rather, Google makes more money the more often and more freely more people use the web.
Happily, that means that insofar as WebM goes, Google's best interest, expressed quite succuinctly in the "perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free" terms of their license grant, happen to align exactly with the best interests of the overwhelmingly vast majority of people on the planet. "
It can be readily asserted that as time passes, XP users will purchase replacement computers; most of them running Windows 7 or OSX (or both); and even the least powerful of these will run Hi Def H.264 video out of the box. Of course, it's fine for Google to act in its own self interest. However, it is chasing a high speed H.264 train that left the station a couple of years....just sayin'
<quote>At the moment, the answer is "Flash, with video encoded in H.264". This will cost you however, because you have to pay royalties for sending out video encoded in H.264.</quote>
Only if you charge the viewer for it.
To simplify somewhat:
No royalties on video shorts (12 minutes or less)
Royalties on "feature length" titles are 2% of the retail price or 2 cents each, whichever is less.
Royalties on subscription sales are $0/yr for less than 100,001 subscribers.
If you are Disney, your H.264 royalties are capped at $6.5 million/yr.




