Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sat 12th Feb 2011 11:59 UTC
PDAs, Cellphones, Wireless "There was a piece of news that didn't happen to get mentioned at last night's developer event. HP has made a donation to a charity on behalf of the WebOS Internals homebrew group that is valued at over $10,000. A few weeks ago, it became clear that future growth in webOS would outpace the server infrastructure that WebOS Internals currently has in place. They were going to need some beefy hardware to keep up with the demands of acting as the a central repository for webOS homebrew apps, patches, and kernels. So they asked HP's Phil McKinney, who has arranged to donate an HP Proliant DL385 2u server with 32 gigs of RAM and 8 terabytes of disk space. They made the decision a few weeks ago and the server is en route." Very welcome news. Like Palm before it, HP gets it.
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Comment by Kroc
by Kroc on Sat 12th Feb 2011 12:18 UTC
Kroc
Member since:
2005-11-10

Developers are the early promoters of your system. You're nothing without them.

I've held off of getting a smartphone because there's been nothing but complete disrespect for geeks, tinkerers, developers and end users.

iPhone is paranoid and marching full steam into big-content land where everything has to be approved.

Android is a sloppy half-arsed unpolished turd that solves the problem of software upgrades by waiting until everybody replaces their handset every six months.

Windows Phone 7, whilst being one of the best designed systems, simply can not wait to lock people into Microsoft-only services and products like Office and XBox.

HP won’t be perfect, but then I’m not an activist, I’m an artist. I used closed and open tools, but I choose them carefully and WebOS is certainly the best out there for my kind of art.

Reply Score: 6

RE: Comment by Kroc
by korpenkraxar on Sat 12th Feb 2011 12:42 UTC in reply to "Comment by Kroc"
korpenkraxar Member since:
2005-09-10

Hmm, having used Android since 2009, I kind of see your point. It's nothing like the GNU/Linux I use and love on my laptops, desktops and servers.

WebOS is already fine for the general consumer. Embracing the geeks is likely one of the best moves for HP at this point, especially since there are likely dark clouds ahead for MeeGo. For instance, some really good scripting, sysadmin, terminal and monitoring tools would be great to generate positive attention and buzz on the interwebs.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Comment by Kroc
by kragil on Sat 12th Feb 2011 12:57 UTC in reply to "Comment by Kroc"
kragil Member since:
2006-01-04

I have a Pre and the software and the community is good, but the hardware is not my cup of tea. It feels fragile and always think I need to handle it with the utmost care.

I guess the Pre2 and Pre3 are a lot better, but they are far from perfect. For example: WebOS still has no Voip app (there seems to be a homebrew coming though)

I would have loved to get a Meego device, but I probably won't anymore.

My current hope is that some chinese OEM will produce a handset that is so generic that you install want you like on it. You know, like you actually own the device.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Comment by Kroc
by Kroc on Sat 12th Feb 2011 13:02 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by Kroc"
Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

You know, like you actually own the device.


Imagine that.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by Kroc
by Radio on Sat 12th Feb 2011 18:56 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by Kroc"
Radio Member since:
2009-06-20

Can't we make that ? I mean, android/webos/meego all have a linux kernel for similar ARM cores; can't we just switch a few driver blobs to make one run on the other's hardware? How deep are the code modifications?

Edited 2011-02-12 18:57 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by Kroc
by kragil on Sun 13th Feb 2011 02:48 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by Kroc"
kragil Member since:
2006-01-04

Just to be clear. HP isn't really a great company. They promised that older WebOS devices would get WebOS 2.0 and now they say they won't, because of some really lame excuses. So not really the kind of platform I would encourage people to buy.

Bottom line:
WebOS is cool. Community is great. Hardware sucks. HP are liars.

Too bad that ARM hardware is such a mess. WebOS is using an Android kernel because it is better tested with all the proprietary blobs and hacks.
Maybe Linaro and some chinese OEM or something like OpenPandora might help.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Comment by Kroc
by arpan on Sun 13th Feb 2011 04:19 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by Kroc"
arpan Member since:
2006-07-30

Good point.

WebOS is mostly a linux kernel with Webkit on top. Considering that Webkit has gotten much faster in the last 2 years because of improvements by Apple & Google, WebOS 2.0 should be faster not slower.

So, it should definitely be able to run on older devices. Maybe it may be slow when too many cards are open, but it should be definitely possible to use most app.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment by Kroc
by kragil on Sun 13th Feb 2011 10:48 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by Kroc"
kragil Member since:
2006-01-04

Exactly, the Pre Plus has exactly the same RAM and storage (sometimes more) sizes as all the new phones and at the WebOS event the 2.0 developers told us that the WebOS 2.0 was tuned to run a lot faster on old Pres. They replaced java with node.js which is way faster and removed other memory hogs and bottlenecks.

Fragmenting your installed base and alienating your customers in this way is just the stupidest move. So beware of HP, they are mostly not that smart.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment by Kroc
by Radio on Sun 13th Feb 2011 16:07 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by Kroc"
Radio Member since:
2009-06-20

Isn't webOS 2 working on hacked Pre 2? Maybe what HP really wants is not having to work on an update and support themselves (those things are time-consuming and anger customers if any bug causes a critical mess-up - and any bug during an update is critical).

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by Kroc
by bhtooefr on Sat 12th Feb 2011 13:58 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by Kroc"
bhtooefr Member since:
2009-02-19

There's always the xpPhone... AFAICT, it uses an ordinary mini-PCIe modem with voice and wake support.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Comment by Kroc
by ricegf on Sat 12th Feb 2011 16:09 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by Kroc"
ricegf Member since:
2007-04-25

As a longtime Maemo user (N770, N800, N900), I haven't completely given up on MeeGo. It's still the best OS in concept for my needs, the developer forums are still active, patches are still flowing, Intel is still investing (and Nokia and other partners to a lesser extent), and a few phones will still be produced by Nokia and others.

While it clearly won't challenge Android and iOS now, the situation doesn't appear any worse than it has been with the N900 - and I've been exceptionally happy with my N900. :-)

But I'll definitely be watching HP webOS with renewed interest. I'd rather buy a phone from a company that gets it than from a company that lost their sanity. ;)

I hear Nokia tablets mentioned periodically in the press, but Microsoft has stated clearly that WinP7 will not support tablets, ever. Has Nokia given any hint as to what OS they are considering for a tablet in light of their new direction? Windows 7? MeeGo? I've tried and hated Win7 tablets already, but I might consider a Nokia MeeGo tablet if it's designed and priced right.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Comment by Kroc
by Radio on Sat 12th Feb 2011 18:51 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by Kroc"
Radio Member since:
2009-06-20

a few phones will still be produced by Nokia and others.

Has Aava any plans to produce slighly more affordable phones ? Is there any other hardware for Meego?

Good thing Alien Dalvik exists, it would make a meegophone immediatly useful.

For tablets, I have read that Elop said he would favor a full windows ecosystem (the bastard), which makes sense, so even there, Meego seems to be out.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Comment by Kroc
by mrhasbean on Sun 13th Feb 2011 03:14 UTC in reply to "Comment by Kroc"
mrhasbean Member since:
2006-04-03

iPhone is paranoid and marching full steam into big-content land where everything has to be approved.

Android is a sloppy half-arsed unpolished turd that solves the problem of software upgrades by waiting until everybody replaces their handset every six months.

Windows Phone 7 ... simply can not wait to lock people into Microsoft-only services and products like Office and XBox.

HP won’t be perfect ... WebOS is certainly the best out there for my kind of art.


While I mostly agree with this there remains an issue.

HP gets it


The issue is that HP and Google DON'T get that in various parts of the world there are very real reasons why home grown apps MUST be vetted before being given carte blanche distribution access. I certainly don't want my teenager being able to install some app written by someone at school without first knowing that there are safeguards in place to prevent that app from either sharing her personal details with all and sundry, or wracking up a $20k data bill. iPhone apps can be shared with others through Ad Hoc Distribution - http://developer.apple.com/programs/ios/distribute.html - without having to put them through the App Store, so it's not preventing them from tinkering, but all of those apps are protected by underlying systems that are specifically designed to prevent the type of issues mentioned above. Underlying systems that can't be changed.

I'm all for tinkering, it's how I first learned to code when I was 11 (and that was a LONG time ago), but in cases where there are potential security and financial risks there needs to be safeguards. HP are willing to put themselves on the line for it, and good on them, but maybe that will change if / when someone does the wrong thing and HP find themselves fighting off law suits. I'm not saying that's how our legal systems should work, but at the moment that's they way they do work. Maybe it won't happen, but potentially it could. So at the moment, IMHO Apple and Microsoft "get it" from a business (legal) and customer security perspective.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by Kroc
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 13th Feb 2011 08:42 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by Kroc"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Relying on companies and third parties to raise your kids?

How American of you.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by Kroc
by abraxas on Sun 13th Feb 2011 13:02 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by Kroc"
abraxas Member since:
2005-07-07

Relying on companies and third parties to raise your kids?

How American of you.


Typical American bashing from you again. Is it some kind of inferiority complex?

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: Comment by Kroc
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 13th Feb 2011 14:55 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by Kroc"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

"Relying on companies and third parties to raise your kids?

How American of you.


Typical American bashing from you again. Is it some kind of inferiority complex?
"

I can rephrase that to fit the just as tragic situation in my own country, if you wish.

Relying on the government to raise your kids?

How Dutch of you.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Comment by Kroc
by re_re on Sun 13th Feb 2011 22:03 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by Kroc"
re_re Member since:
2005-07-06

"Typical American bashing from you again. Is it some kind of inferiority complex? "

I can rephrase that to fit the just as tragic situation in my own country, if you wish.

Relying on the government to raise your kids? "

As much as I hate to admit it, in the past 20-30 years (in America anyway) the trend (especially in larger cities) has been to use the school as a babysitter and ridiculous laws to keep our children in check as opposed to parents taking responsibility for raising their children to be productive, decent human beings.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by Kroc
by kragil on Sun 13th Feb 2011 13:44 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by Kroc"
kragil Member since:
2006-01-04

LOL, what a load of BS.

If you don't want your kids to generate big bills then don't give them a contract phone or educate them. A smart kid will jailbreak the phone you borrowed from Steve in no time.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Comment by Kroc
by Soulbender on Sun 13th Feb 2011 15:54 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by Kroc"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

The issue is that HP and Google DON'T get that in various parts of the world there are very real reasons why home grown apps MUST be vetted before being given carte blanche distribution access.


The chinese government agrees.

Underlying systems that can't be changed.


In various parts of the world there already is a system in place. Its called parenting.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by Kroc
by fretinator on Mon 14th Feb 2011 16:42 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by Kroc"
fretinator Member since:
2005-07-06

Perhaps you missed the latest upgrade. From the release notes for Parenting 2.1:

1. Removed references to parental interaction, parental guidance and parent-child communication. These API's have been obsoleted by the new BigBrother API's.

2. Reworked the calculation for Quality Time. There is no longer a requirement for direct interaction from the parent. The calculation now included Nanny time, 3rd-party software supervision times, as well as Facebook time.

3. The help manual now includes references to the 2008 Nyer-Dreemz study. This study, financed by a combined grant from the DHS and a consortium of major software security companies, demonstrated conclusively that the adolescent nervous system develops the ability to make choices at apporximately 21 years of age.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by Kroc
by elsewhere on Mon 14th Feb 2011 05:59 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by Kroc"
elsewhere Member since:
2005-07-13

...but all of those apps are protected by underlying systems that are specifically designed to prevent the type of issues mentioned above. Underlying systems that can't be changed.


There seems to be this myth that Apple has some sort of method for screening malicious apps from the App Store. They don't. It's not like they have access to the source code or the resources to scan it manually. They're just checking for appearance, stability, redundancy with existing iOS functions, and boobies.

They've had to pull apps that have, in fact, done things you're referring to, as well as breaking other rules. As has Google. Can't speak to WebOS, I'm not that familiar.

iOS and Google sandbox their apps, I'm assuming WebOS does, but they still allow access to certain amounts of core data and functionality. At least with Google, they warn you, albeit cryptically, that the app you're installing is going to access certain things over and above the normal well-behaved app. Apple doesn't give you that option, because users aren't supposed to understand what the apps can actually access, it's too confusing for them. But don't kid yourself into thinking that "legitimate" apps can't do bad things. It's just a question of how long they can before they're caught and banned and then swept under the carpet to avoid bad publicity.

If you're that concerned, then she probably shouldn't have a smartphone to begin with.

Reply Score: 4

v Not so great
by KrustyVader on Sat 12th Feb 2011 18:39 UTC
RE: Not so great
by KrustyVader on Sun 13th Feb 2011 12:59 UTC in reply to "Not so great"
KrustyVader Member since:
2006-10-28

Negative score for calling them cheap bastard... I think i make someone on HP cry.

Reply Score: 0

qt on WebOS?
by fran on Sat 12th Feb 2011 18:55 UTC
fran
Member since:
2010-08-06

I saw something about WebOS apps being QT development capable. If this is true this would bumb up number of third party developed apps in a short time.

Blackberry's up and coming support for Android apps is confirmed. Maybe HP can also do the same.

Reply Score: 2

RE: qt on WebOS?
by Praxis on Sat 12th Feb 2011 20:36 UTC in reply to "qt on WebOS?"
Praxis Member since:
2009-09-17

if WebOs can run native code it should be possible to port Qt to it. I dont' know how easily it would be to make such apps integrate themselves into webos but getting Qt itself running should be in the realm of possibility.

Reply Score: 2

RE: qt on WebOS?
by jspaloss on Sat 12th Feb 2011 22:29 UTC in reply to "qt on WebOS?"
jspaloss Member since:
2007-05-10

There is an option to install QT from Preware. The link to the developer's web site leads <a href=http://www.griffin.net>here.

Reply Score: 1

HP
by OSGuy on Sun 13th Feb 2011 06:55 UTC
OSGuy
Member since:
2006-01-01

HP quickly is becoming my favorite company. Looks like HP is truly dedicated to the success of WebOS. I hope they continue this route and WebOS actually picks up. They can be the new Apple but better. They have the hardware and now the software too.

Reply Score: 2

RE: HP
by akro on Sun 13th Feb 2011 12:59 UTC in reply to "HP"
akro Member since:
2005-07-06

You don't work for them obviously....

Go work for HP and see if you say the same thing...

Edited 2011-02-13 13:00 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: HP
by kragil on Sun 13th Feb 2011 15:48 UTC in reply to "HP"
kragil Member since:
2006-01-04

I have the pre and trust me people don't get exited about the design or the build quality.

And HP are just liars(they promised WebOS2.0 on their fucking website), so I don't even get feel good about my purchase.

Just thought you should know....

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: HP
by fran on Sun 13th Feb 2011 16:17 UTC in reply to "RE: HP"
fran Member since:
2010-08-06

kragil, keep in mind HP will be building the new WebOS devices.

Other thing is phones that feel flimsy, is in some way's better shock resistant and dissipate energy much better when falling compared to other"solid" phones.

Almost like a 1950's thick hard/steel motorcar. Crash it and much more of those energy don't absorbed by the frame and take a heavier toll on those inside.

So it might feel not so tough, when in effect it might be tougher.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: HP
by Neolander on Sun 13th Feb 2011 17:26 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: HP"
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

The physicist in me totally agrees ;)

It's a common feeling that heavy metal things are more solid than light plastic things. And a totally wrong one.

Metals tend not to be very good shock absorbers as compared to plastics. And they add weight, which means extra energy to be dissipated in the advent of a fall...

Reply Score: 1