Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 22nd Feb 2011 23:26 UTC
Windows Ever since the successful development and launch of Windows 7, Microsoft has become ever tighter-lipped about Windows development. Sure, it dropped the bomb about releasing Windows 8 for ARM, but that's it. Nothing on features or timetables (other than 'three years after Windows 7'). Well, the usually well-connected (inside Microsoft, that is) Mary-Jo Foley now claims to have a legit development roadmap - and it seems everything is on track for a Windows 8 beta in September 2011.
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I'll go out on a limb...
by cmost on Wed 23rd Feb 2011 00:45 UTC
cmost
Member since:
2006-07-16

May I suggest that Windows 8 will introduce ever tighter integration with Microsoft and its affiliate services while also introducing an App "store" a la Apple that is essentially a rip off of what Linux has had available for years in system wide updates and application management. Only Microsoft's App store will be hostile to F/OSS applications or indeed any application that dares to think different. Glad I ditched Windows years ago.

Reply Score: 0

RE: I'll go out on a limb...
by lucas_maximus on Wed 23rd Feb 2011 13:52 UTC in reply to "I'll go out on a limb..."
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Actually Linux distros didn't come up with the idea system wide application updates .. It was actually first on Windows back in the 90s with a product called Oil Change ...

More here ..

http://www.cybermedia.com/products/oilchange/ocreview.html

http://penguinday.wordpress.com/2010/08/11/the-package-manager-is-c...

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: I'll go out on a limb...
by joekiser on Wed 23rd Feb 2011 14:12 UTC in reply to "RE: I'll go out on a limb..."
joekiser Member since:
2005-06-30

Hah! I remember that crap. Came with FirstAid 95. Did not work well with programs you had installed on your own...then again, neither does any current package management system for Linux/BSD.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: I'll go out on a limb...
by Valhalla on Wed 23rd Feb 2011 15:00 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: I'll go out on a limb..."
Valhalla Member since:
2006-01-24

Did not work well with programs you had installed on your own...then again, neither does any current package management system for Linux/BSD.

Kinda obvious, since the package manager has no knowledge of programs 'installed' manually.

Reply Score: 2

present_arms Member since:
2005-07-09

yeah it does, it's listed under local in synaptic ;) only for deb / rpm installs (Ubuntu, Pclinuxos)

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: I'll go out on a limb...
by boldingd on Wed 23rd Feb 2011 21:22 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: I'll go out on a limb..."
boldingd Member since:
2009-02-19

Depends on how you installed it. If you built from source, the package manager still won't know anything about it.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: I'll go out on a limb...
by aliquis on Thu 24th Feb 2011 01:02 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: I'll go out on a limb..."
aliquis Member since:
2005-07-23

You could build it into a package and install the package though.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: I'll go out on a limb...
by lemur2 on Thu 24th Feb 2011 01:34 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: I'll go out on a limb..."
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"Did not work well with programs you had installed on your own...then again, neither does any current package management system for Linux/BSD.
Kinda obvious, since the package manager has no knowledge of programs 'installed' manually. "

It is a bit off-topic, but ... on Arch Linux the build system (ABS) makes installable packages from the source code, and then one installs the resulting packages using the package manager (pacman), so that the package manger is fully aware of the packages, and so they can easily be un-installed.

Reply Score: 2

lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

The OpenBSD ports system does this as well. Builds a openbsd pkg and then installs it. Allows me to install Java on multiple machines without having to do multiple rebuilds.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: I'll go out on a limb...
by Sodapop on Thu 24th Feb 2011 21:50 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: I'll go out on a limb..."
Sodapop Member since:
2005-07-06

lol I still have a retail version of First Aid 95. It's a very nice dust collector.

Reply Score: 1

RE: I'll go out on a limb...
by tomcat on Thu 24th Feb 2011 06:33 UTC in reply to "I'll go out on a limb..."
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

May I suggest that Windows 8 will introduce ever tighter integration with Microsoft and its affiliate services while also introducing an App "store" a la Apple that is essentially a rip off of what Linux has had available for years in system wide updates and application management. Only Microsoft's App store will be hostile to F/OSS applications or indeed any application that dares to think different. Glad I ditched Windows years ago.


Except nobody cares about a Linux app store.

Reply Score: 3

RichterKuato
Member since:
2010-05-14

I think all the people who don't get why everyone else is interested in Tablets right now don't get that PC's are still very hard to use for most people. Smartphones and Tablets by comparison are pretty intuitive.

Really, I think Tablets are what Netbooks were meant to be.

Reply Score: 1

Bully Member since:
2006-04-07

Smartphones and Tablets by comparison are pretty intuitive.


I never tried tablets, but smartphones don't seem intuitive at all to me.

Edited 2011-02-23 06:07 UTC

Reply Score: 4

Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

That's the beauty of the "intuitive" word. Anytime you try to use it as an argument to drive other people's choices (not yours), you're doing it wrong.

Reply Score: 5

RichterKuato Member since:
2010-05-14

Do you mean in general or in relation to PC's?

Reply Score: 1

renox Member since:
2005-07-06

I agree with your first point, but not with your second point "Really, I think Tablets are what Netbooks were meant to be.", netbooks are just small laptops(*) which have their distinct usage..

*: at the beginning those were sold at a premium, but then Asus noticed that in fact those could be produced cheaper (smaller screen) so created the netbook marketing concept.

Reply Score: 2

RichterKuato Member since:
2010-05-14

The way I see it Netbooks were supposed to be computers dedicated to internet use. Because they didn't need all of the functionality of a PC, they could be made cheaper. But they came off as being cheap laptops.

I think they just didn't go far enough, so most people couldn't tell the difference. But with Smartphones and Tablets there is a clear difference.

It's worth noting that Smartbooks were going to something like this but I guess they waited a little to long to launch or something.

Reply Score: 2

No it isnt Member since:
2005-11-14

And you're WRONG, since tablets are bought by gadget freaks (and media folks), never by technophobes, and hardly ever by "everyone else".

Reply Score: 3

jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

"never by technophobes, and hardly ever by "everyone else"."

It's called Ipad.. and it's been pretty darn successful outside the gadget geek and media weenie market segments. Maybe you've heard of it?

Reply Score: 2

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Still only ever saw 1 (one) in the wild though since it was released, and that was the one from an Apple fanatic.

Then again, I don't live in the Starbucks-university-city centre triangle.

Edited 2011-02-23 13:39 UTC

Reply Score: 2

jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

Given the reported numbers sold alone; we're well beyond gadget geeks and and fanbois. I just don't think one can rationally claim that the billions of units out there are only the property of an skilled, elite or brand loyal few.

(I give you the serious answer since our other thread participant has no history known by me and hasn't offered anything but his own emotional reasons for discounting anything not within his pre-defined view.)

Reply Score: 2

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

I just don't think one can rationally claim that the billions of units out there are only the property of an skilled, elite or brand loyal few.


I dont think you can rationally claim that Apple has sold billions of iPad's.

Reply Score: 2

jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

Does that invalidate the original point; that many outside the gadgetgeek/cultofmac categories are buying Ipads in noticable numbers?

Sure, we need Apple to provide exact sales figures, returns and reasons for returns for a full analysis. I simply suggest that it's safe to say that of the XYZ-ions of Ipads sold..

Reply Score: 2

rr7.num7 Member since:
2010-04-30

Does that invalidate the original point; that many outside the gadgetgeek/cultofmac categories are buying Ipads in noticable numbers?


Yes it does. There's a difference between "billions" and "a few millions". I'm not saying all iPad buyers are all geeks/tecnophiles, but it is possible that a big percentage of those buyers are in fact geeks/tecnophiles. If only about 0.1% of the world population were geeks, that would make it possible (if unlikely). I think there are much more than that. And for what I've seen, I think that it is true: very few (comparatively) "average joes" own an iPad.

Reply Score: 1

makkus Member since:
2006-01-11

I notice a lot of iPads on my commute to work and by the looks of it they are not used by gadget freaks, but mostly for reading.

This is on a train to a small city in the Netherlands (145000 people).

Reply Score: 1

No it isnt Member since:
2005-11-14

Has it? All stats I've seen point to the average buyer being the average Apple fanboy.

Reply Score: 1

jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

whatever derision makes you sleep better at night big guy.

Reply Score: 2

WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

"never by technophobes, and hardly ever by "everyone else"."

It's called Ipad.. and it's been pretty darn successful outside the gadget geek and media weenie market segments. Maybe you've heard of it?


Ya, my dad owns one... took me about 15-20 minutes to show him pretty much everything he needed to know about using it, including installing apps. Try THAT with a netbook ;)

He bought one in early May; talked to him last night and said he's still very happy with it. His favorite app is the MLB one.

Reply Score: 2

rr7.num7 Member since:
2010-04-30

Ya, my dad owns one... took me about 15-20 minutes to show him pretty much everything he needed to know about using it, including installing apps. Try THAT with a netbook ;)

He bought one in early May; talked to him last night and said he's still very happy with it. His favorite app is the MLB one.


I did something similar, with a laptop with Debian installed. It took me about an hour. It's not 15 minutes, but it's not bad either, I think. I also taught him how to install applications (Software Center). It was about a year ago and he hasn't had any problems. He already knew more or less how to browse the internet but that's it.

Reply Score: 1

taila Member since:
2009-09-21

I think the reason people think pads/tablets are better than PC is because they, the current ones are basically improved smartphones, bigger screen for reading and writing on.

And of cause everyone knows a smart phone and is battling with the small screen these small power houses come with. The familiarity of the smartphone therefore makes a larger smartphone easier to work with.

The current tablets are not from the same line as PCs and frankly here in South Africa they are very expensive and I have not seen anyone using it yet. Yes they are available at shops but they are rare.

On the other hand my wife and kids have had a lot more fun using linux at home than they ever had using windows. Just the amount of apps available for just about anything they need is amazing.

Reply Score: 1

RichterKuato Member since:
2010-05-14

I hear what you're saying but if these devices aren't getting regular folk interested in computers they're a step in the right direction. Personally, I know my mom (a regular person) is interested in having one but right now they're too expensive. (which I agree with)

Reply Score: 1

jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

In terms of limited processing power, limited functionality; yeah, tablets are probably going to be a more successful netbook form factor than clamshells. Pesonally, I find the tablet with clamshell mount most interesting; tablet on the go, real input at home and office.

It depends on what one needs to do though. The virtual keyboard on the Ipad isn't horrid but I'm not going to be doing heavy data input or cli app use with it. I've put in the time on my N### virtual and button pad inputs most recently and various inputs on Palm, WinCE and Newtons back through the years. It's great for some things, horrid for others.

For consumption; absolutely since you don't need much more than a list of content titles and the traditional five video/music controls.

For creation; hope it's a button and nobb input like the mixer studio app for Ipad (very nice app for the musicions with mic'd instruments).

For me personally; how useful it is depends on a strong text input method. A keyboard accessory has been my first purchase with every handtop since the Newton. The benefit is being able to use my same apps on desktop, notebook and handtop tablet. It's about being able to go beyond the limited apps built around the most superficial graphic interface layer. I don't want Android apps; I want a full *nix distro and userland underneith the pretty GUI makeup. Give me brains and looks not just the latter.

Reply Score: 3

imaginant Member since:
2010-02-26

Really, I think Tablets are what Netbooks were meant to be.


And much more, I suppose. Give us a tablet device with the features of Win 7, and the usual ports and I think the laptop would soon disappear and the desktop would be relegated to a niche product. This powerful tablet may only need 6 (honest) hours of running time to be successful, which would be a real technical achievement at this time.

However, Microsoft and it's technical partners are on track to achieve this in 2012. The question is, will the competition beat them to the punch. I know if I realize this, Apple, Google, and crowd have already figured this out and are working toward that end. If they succeed first, then Microsoft is in deep kimchee. Still, Microsoft has recently shown some pretty savvy insight (Windows Phone 7 is really decent) so this could be a pretty even race, with Apple always being the wild card.

For me, the first tablet that meets this (somewhat vague) criteria, will be the first tablet I own, regardless of who makes it. Although I should admit I'm partial to Android.

Reply Score: 1

ari-free Member since:
2007-01-22

"Really, I think Tablets are what Netbooks were meant to be."

Except that you can actually do real stuff with a netbook: use office (Open Office if you prefer), photoshop, gimp, blender, turbotax, etc

Reply Score: 3

axilmar
Member since:
2006-03-20

Does it worth the upgrade?

Reply Score: 2

The Microsoft Tax?
by shotsman on Wed 23rd Feb 2011 12:46 UTC
shotsman
Member since:
2005-07-22

There are a number of ifs to all be true I can't help wondering if will MS try to insist that all ARM powered Desktops/netbooks/laptops be sold only with Windows 8?

Or
Will the mainstream PC makers (Dell, Lenovo etc) just decide to 'say no'?

I really hope so.

Will MS try to dictate the HW configs like they did with Netbooks?
I do hope that someone will have the balls to standup to them and tell them to go take a hike. Sadly, IMHO these comanies are just like sheep being driven by the MS Sheepdog right into the pen, into the truck and off for slaughter.

Reply Score: 0

RE: The Microsoft Tax?
by Karitku on Wed 23rd Feb 2011 12:57 UTC in reply to "The Microsoft Tax?"
Karitku Member since:
2006-01-12

It's all true. Microsoft is forcing OEMs to build machines using blueprints that they provide. Microsoft also own those blueprints so they must redesign whole systems if they try to use other OS. They also force them to use only Windows Phone, in fact you need to buy certain amount Windows Phone licenses if you make both tablets and phones. I also know they sabotage certain drivers if OEMs don't follow guidances. Updates won't mystically install or devices won't, it all aims to make OEM look bad.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: The Microsoft Tax?
by Thom_Holwerda on Wed 23rd Feb 2011 13:24 UTC in reply to "RE: The Microsoft Tax?"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Lolwut?

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: The Microsoft Tax?
by lucas_maximus on Wed 23rd Feb 2011 13:53 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: The Microsoft Tax?"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

he was ripping into the tin foil hat.

Reply Score: 2

RE: The Microsoft Tax?
by Thom_Holwerda on Wed 23rd Feb 2011 13:26 UTC in reply to "The Microsoft Tax?"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Will MS try to dictate the HW configs like they did with Netbooks?


Hardware makers were free to ignore the Windows-specified limits and make Linux netbooks. In fact, they did - massively. It's just that no one bought them.

Go play somewhere else, troll.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: The Microsoft Tax?
by TechGeek on Wed 23rd Feb 2011 17:31 UTC in reply to "RE: The Microsoft Tax?"
TechGeek Member since:
2006-01-14

Actually what he said is true. Microsoft did dictate that companies who were receiving Windows for basically free for the netbooks had to limit the specs of the netbook. There were limits on drive size, ram, and screen size. And the only way to be profitable was to sell Windows. So the OEM's were kind of in a bind as it cost too much to have separate hardware lines for Linux and Windows. There is no technological reason why you couldn't have 4 gigs of ram in a netbook, Microsoft just didn't want it eating into their sales.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: The Microsoft Tax?
by n4cer on Wed 23rd Feb 2011 20:27 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: The Microsoft Tax?"
n4cer Member since:
2005-07-06

Actually what he said is true. Microsoft did dictate that companies who were receiving Windows for basically free for the netbooks had to limit the specs of the netbook. There were limits on drive size, ram, and screen size. And the only way to be profitable was to sell Windows. So the OEM's were kind of in a bind as it cost too much to have separate hardware lines for Linux and Windows. There is no technological reason why you couldn't have 4 gigs of ram in a netbook, Microsoft just didn't want it eating into their sales.


Those limits were only applied to netbooks shipping with Windows Starter. It wasn't a limit on what hardware the OEM could ship. It was what Windows OS SKU they could ship for a given hardware configuration.

The OEMs were free to sell a higher-speced netbook with Windows preloaded as long as they loaded Home or higher. If the netbook wasn't running Windows, the OEM could configure it however they wanted. In most cases, Windows actually upped the base spec of the netbooks, because the Linux-based ones shipped with smaller, flash drives (and possibly slower CPUs and less memory) prior to the availability of Windows in that market.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: The Microsoft Tax?
by shotsman on Wed 23rd Feb 2011 21:07 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: The Microsoft Tax?"
shotsman Member since:
2005-07-22

Putting anything but started on a Netbook was a joke.
why?
The extra dosh for the higher rated version of the O/S made the difference between the cost of the netbook and even a mid range laptop so small that most people would bypass the netbooks in an instant.
So MS says, here Mr OEM, you can have XP starter for £5.00 provided you limit the H/W config.
(MS Bod passes over the list detailing the max specs allowed under the deal)

Fast forward to September.
Same MS Bod visits the same OEM's.
"Mr OEM, as you know we are releasing a new version of Windows. We understand that your ARM CPU based devices currently run this thing called Linux (this includes Android). We jolly well can't have that can we?"
He reached into his briefcase and produces a list.
"Like before. Windows 8 Home Basic (aka severely knackered version) for £5.00. Here are the specifications you will sell. Oh, this is for 100% of your production including Slates"

OEM bangs head against Brick wall and gives up.

I would be very pleasantly surprised if this didn't happen.
We can dream can't we?

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: The Microsoft Tax?
by vodoomoth on Thu 24th Feb 2011 12:37 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: The Microsoft Tax?"
vodoomoth Member since:
2010-03-30

Those limits were only applied to netbooks shipping with Windows Starter.

You are aware that the vast majority of netbooks sold with a Microsoft OS have had XP instead of 7, right?

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: The Microsoft Tax?
by lemur2 on Thu 24th Feb 2011 01:31 UTC in reply to "RE: The Microsoft Tax?"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"Will MS try to dictate the HW configs like they did with Netbooks?
Hardware makers were free to ignore the Windows-specified limits and make Linux netbooks. In fact, they did - massively. It's just that no one bought them. Go play somewhere else, troll. "

Actually, Linux netbooks were selling like hotcakes in the store one minute, and then Microsoft took XP Home back off the shelf, blew the cobwebs away, and "provided" it to OEMs. Within a week of XP Home shipping in stores, all stock of Linux was removed. At some stores local to me there were plenty of Linux netbooks in store when literally overnight they were removed, and from that point on ONLY XP Home netbooks were offered for sale.

Naturally people stopped buying Linux netbooks from stores when there were none to buy in the store any more.

Meanwhile, in some countries with a fair market, or in other sales situations such as online sales, Linux netbooks still represent about 33% of netbook sales.

Reply Score: 3

jabjoe
Member since:
2009-05-06

They frighten of something? They stopped development of IE when they thought the competition was over. Maybe they slowed Windows development for the same reason, and now the competition is looking a bit like it might also pull a FireFox on them.

There must be some OS that scares them and judging from all the ARM noise, it must be one that runs quite happy on ARM. As we know, now cost/the-planet/batteries are important, every want ARM.

Reply Score: 3