Linked by Alin on Thu 24th Feb 2011 23:36 UTC
Gnome "Gnome Shell 2.91.90 was released yesterday getting some fine adjustments according to the release announcement: 'This release just about concludes user interface changes anticipated before GNOME 3.0. The only significant change we expect after this release is to add a native network indicator based on NetworkManager 0.9.' Gnome Shell 2.91.90 brings new automatic workspaces, removed minimize and maximize buttons from window titlebars, a PolicyKit authentication agent and more."
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v Wow, thats NICE!
by MacMan on Fri 25th Feb 2011 03:28 UTC
RE: Wow, thats NICE!
by mat69 on Fri 25th Feb 2011 11:09 UTC in reply to "Wow, thats NICE!"
mat69 Member since:
2006-03-29

Actually it is you who brings another topic to the table. Judging from your other posts where you mention Qt [1] it looks like you are trying to start a flame war. Again.

[1] Yeah it is _Qt_ not QT. QT could be taken as QuickTime. ;)

Reply Score: 4

RE: Wow, thats NICE!
by sorpigal on Fri 25th Feb 2011 12:04 UTC in reply to "Wow, thats NICE!"
sorpigal Member since:
2005-11-02

Troll detected.

I dare you to attempt to defend GNOME's UI choices on their merits. I will shred your arguments in to fine spaghetti and then feed it to you, one revolting bite at a time, while I enumerate GNOME's failings memorably by punctuating each criticism with an evaluation of your intelligence calculated to be unflattering to you and amusing to the audience.

Reply Score: 5

Maybe...
by tuaris on Fri 25th Feb 2011 04:20 UTC
tuaris
Member since:
2007-08-05

I'm not too fond of the "activities" menu and the way you browse applications. It look too much like mobile OS's (iOS, Android).

I like the way Linux Mint does it. The GNOME developers should have a look at that.

Reply Score: 2

Very nice, but......
by obsidian on Fri 25th Feb 2011 06:08 UTC
obsidian
Member since:
2007-05-12

....why did they have to remove the minimise and maximise buttons? Was that really necessary?

Please, Gnome devs, at least give users the *option* of having those buttons! That is all I ask.
Surely that is not too much to ask - those buttons are *control items*, not just fripperies.

I use Gnome now (on Ubuntu) and it took a while to get used to having the buttons at the top-left instead of the top-right, but at least that is *much* better than not having them at all......

Anyway, apart from this, the appearance is very nice!

Reply Score: 4

RE: Very nice, but......
by pandronic on Fri 25th Feb 2011 07:28 UTC in reply to "Very nice, but......"
pandronic Member since:
2006-05-18

there is nowhere to minimize a window because Gnome Shell doesn't have a window list like the old Gnome panels


WTF? This trend of not having a proper window list bugs me to no end. For this I simply loathe the Mac OS X dock and the default Win7 taskbar behavior. If that wasn't enough, now Gnome has to join the "hip" party.

How am I suppose to work with two windows of the same application?

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Very nice, but......
by Karitku on Fri 25th Feb 2011 09:14 UTC in reply to "RE: Very nice, but......"
Karitku Member since:
2006-01-12


How am I suppose to work with two windows of the same application?

Tabs GranPa, Tabs. It's time to say good by multiple windows of same programs.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Very nice, but......
by Neolander on Fri 25th Feb 2011 10:06 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Very nice, but......"
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

+1. If only tabs were a standard feature of windows managers and graphics toolkits so that applications with multiple windows can be made to use a tabbed or docked layout easily...

You know, something like the tabbed windows of Safari 4 betas and recent releases of KDE, but in a much more polished way.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Very nice, but......
by Elv13 on Sat 26th Feb 2011 06:07 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Very nice, but......"
Elv13 Member since:
2006-06-12

Fluxbox, KDE and Awesome (to some hacky extent) does that that ability

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Very nice, but......
by pandronic on Fri 25th Feb 2011 11:22 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Very nice, but......"
pandronic Member since:
2006-05-18

+1 for tabs, but not all applications support tabs.

Another problem might be if you have multiple activities using the same application (for example let's say that in my browser I have 5 tabs for one project and 5 for another). You can solve this using Tab Groups in Firefox 4 or Linux's virtual desktops (not the half-assed implementation Apple calls Spaces).

Also tabs should be provided by the OS in an unified way, not by every app in its own unique way.

Until all this is supported ... I think it's a bit premature to do away with multiple windows.

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: Very nice, but......
by holivega on Fri 25th Feb 2011 11:36 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Very nice, but......"
holivega Member since:
2009-10-14

I totally agree!

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Very nice, but......
by phoenix on Fri 25th Feb 2011 20:06 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Very nice, but......"
phoenix Member since:
2005-07-11

Tabs are not a replacement for proper window management.

How do you show the content of two tabs side-by-side (or one above the other) in the same app? Very easy to do with two windows.

How do you create a 2x2 square of four tabs? Very easy to do with 4 windows.

Once you start adding those features to a tabbed interface, you are back to an MDI interface, and lose all the benefits of tabs.

A proper task manager, with proper window management (Windows 7 dwm is crap in this department), gives you the best of all worlds: windows, tabs, and tasks.

Reply Score: 7

RE[2]: Very nice, but......
by sorpigal on Fri 25th Feb 2011 11:55 UTC in reply to "RE: Very nice, but......"
sorpigal Member since:
2005-11-02

Silly user! No one needs to work with two windows from the same application! Or, if you need that you can click extra times! It's not as if convenience for common use cases like this is as important as following an artist's mockup that looks pretty.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Very nice, but......
by muszek on Fri 25th Feb 2011 13:49 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Very nice, but......"
muszek Member since:
2007-04-25

Usage scenarios with 2 windows of the same app, off the top of my head:
* I'm using a web browser and want to open another window in anonymous mode (I do quite often to log in as another user on websites I create - this way I don't kill the original session).
* chat windows in IM programs (Pidgin) are separate from the main window (the one with a buddy list).
* open some app as root (a text editor would be a common example)
* GIMP's interface is multi-windowed.

I'm using Docky on the left on "older" Gnome (2.32), placed on the left (the same as on the video in TFA). There's a option (AFAIR not a default) to have an indicator next to dock icons that tells that there are multiple windows open. Right click brings a contextual menu that lets me choose a window to be focused. It's not very handy (I'd like a left click on an icon to toggle focused windows).

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Very nice, but......
by Rahul on Fri 25th Feb 2011 14:21 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Very nice, but......"
Rahul Member since:
2005-07-06

It seems a number of people are commenting solely based on their misunderstanding of some text rather than any actual user experience. GNOME Shell allows users to run multiple times the same app. It is just not the default action when you click on a icon. Right click provides a option "New Window" which does the task just fine.

Also Maximize and Minimize are still options and can be enabled via dconf. Just not the default.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Very nice, but......
by pandronic on Fri 25th Feb 2011 15:59 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Very nice, but......"
pandronic Member since:
2006-05-18

Is there a window list in a taskbar or something similar?

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Very nice, but......
by Rahul on Fri 25th Feb 2011 16:07 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Very nice, but......"
Rahul Member since:
2005-07-06

There is a Dash which is sort of similar to the OS X Dock. You can see screenshots or videos online.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Very nice, but......
by pandronic on Fri 25th Feb 2011 22:41 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Very nice, but......"
pandronic Member since:
2006-05-18

If you are referring to the dock on the left than this is the root of the problem - just application icons and no individual windows.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Very nice, but......
by Savior on Fri 25th Feb 2011 20:58 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Very nice, but......"
Savior Member since:
2006-09-02

Also Maximize and Minimize are still options and can be enabled via dconf. Just not the default.

Everybody likes to poke around in a registry because it's so much fun. User friendly too.

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: Very nice, but......
by Rahul on Sat 26th Feb 2011 04:53 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Very nice, but......"
Rahul Member since:
2005-07-06

User friendly or not, it is still a option and users here seemed to have assumed it is not. My point still stands.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Very nice, but......
by pandronic on Mon 28th Feb 2011 11:03 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Very nice, but......"
pandronic Member since:
2006-05-18

You probably mean power users. But that's just a small percentage of the users. The majority doesn't bother to change the defaults even if there is a friendly settings widget to do it.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Very nice, but......
by dizzey on Sat 26th Feb 2011 12:05 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Very nice, but......"
dizzey Member since:
2005-10-15

I hope you are sarcastic. making pcb's in eagle for exampel you want to use the schematic editor and the layout editor at the same time. interaction in one window will result in changes in th other editor.

but then i would say that the proper solution is two monitors or putting the windows on different workspace.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Very nice, but......
by kaiwai on Sat 26th Feb 2011 06:09 UTC in reply to "RE: Very nice, but......"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Easy, right click on the icon and select from the list - is it really that hard? really?

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Very nice, but......
by pandronic on Sat 26th Feb 2011 06:49 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Very nice, but......"
pandronic Member since:
2006-05-18

is it really that hard?


When discussing usability this is not a question you want to ask your users.

And, yes, it is that hard, being one of the most used features of an OS, you lose time over and over again. Also you lose perspective - you don't have an overview all the time.

Reply Score: 2

Live CD?
by mat69 on Fri 25th Feb 2011 11:29 UTC
mat69
Member since:
2006-03-29

Does anyone know if those Live CDs also include proprietary Nvidia drivers?

Gnome Shell looks quite nice.
I really like the way "workspaces", activities or whatever you wanna call them are handled. There is imo absolutely no reason to have like 4 different workspaces if you only use one currently. So what they did there is great.

There are some things which I don't like though and which hopefully will be changed in 3.2.
One is the removal of the maximising button. Yeah I know you can double click the window "bar" (sic?) or drag it to the top. Though that is imo harder to discover than an icon.

Then there is the default suspend. I don't want to press a key just to be able to turn the computer off. How should a normal user discover this? And if a user discovered that, couldn't it be that they would try the "Alt" key at many occasions just to see if there are "hidden" features elsewhere?

Despite that suspending does not work on many machines.
Now you could say that this should be fixed. Yet IIRC it can't be fixed reliably due to bad Bios implementations.

Reply Score: 2

Gnome is focus on touch?
by TheMonoTone on Fri 25th Feb 2011 13:36 UTC
TheMonoTone
Member since:
2006-01-01

So gnome is trying to be like a phone/tablet interface or something? I guess that leaves KDE as the only big desktop release left for Linux unless XFCE or LXDE decide to come in and become more featureful. Gnome 3's shell really doesn't look as useful as gnome 2 was even, and gnome 2 while featureful often had quirks that just drove me insane.

Honestly KDE has had the right ideas for my use cases throughout the 4.x release path in terms of window management and program launching. Its all about the search/tile/expose goodness in my mind. They have all 3 unlike many other of the window managers. Its customizable to no end and works quite well most of the time doing so, but the default are quite nice as well.

Qt may be written in a language I hate, but that doesn't mean I dislike the library or the desktop built around it, quite the opposite.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Gnome is focus on touch?
by joekiser on Fri 25th Feb 2011 14:30 UTC in reply to "Gnome is focus on touch?"
joekiser Member since:
2005-06-30

I like the approach Gnome shell is taking. The window management reminds me of a hybrid of CDE and WebOS. Minimized programs are treated as tiles or cards that can be grouped according to function. The only thing that's missing is a right-click app menu.

IMO, the perfect desktop OS would consist of a dock for frequently access apps, a right-click menu for less often used apps, and running apps would be shown as iconified tiles (small pictures updated in real-time, not icons) on the desktop. The only way that I've seen to get this setup thus far is a very hackish fvwm2 setup that uses ImageMagick to generate thumbnail previews for minimized apps.

Gnome Shell has its quirks, but it is nowhere near as bad as the crap they were putting out just six months ago.

Reply Score: 4

Docky
by vivainio on Fri 25th Feb 2011 15:17 UTC
vivainio
Member since:
2008-12-26

I recommend anyone that's looking at Gnome3 to take a look at Docky. It provides the task-based dock "right now".

Reply Score: 3

GNOME Hell
by Jason Bourne on Fri 25th Feb 2011 15:18 UTC
Jason Bourne
Member since:
2007-06-02

I have converted my wife into using Linux, without too much issue. She's been using for over a year now. Her machine has Fedora installed, just like mine. Strangely enough she didn't find Windows 7 taskbar to be practical. Instead of that, it was either XP taskbar or GNOME 2.x taskbar.

Last night I proposed that she tried GNOME fricking Shell, which I have been hating for a while now, and that feeling doesn't want to change so soon.

Thinking on GNOME's Shells advocates' words, that this desktop is based on what's best for the user, to make life easier, I was glad that she absolutely hated GNOME Shell.

The whole "Activities" menu and the workspaces were a complete mess, not to mention that she complained hard about the lacking of a window list.

I don't think GNOME Shell is going to get there, and so Unity.

Reply Score: 3

RE: GNOME Hell
by puelocesar on Fri 25th Feb 2011 23:23 UTC in reply to "GNOME Hell"
puelocesar Member since:
2008-10-30

Yeah, I'm pretty sure someone said the same thing about WIMP years ago...

First of all, it's harsh to judge like this unfinished software, secondly that doesn't prove current window management paradigm is better, maybe what's happening is that you and your wife spent a considerable time of your lives using one paradigm and unconsciously will reject anything different from that because it will have to spend an unnecessary amount of time getting used to something new.

See, some people hate new things, understandably, but there are also people who likes new things, and if we all keep technology halted because some people don't like these new things, what's going to happen to human society?

I myself, despite not liking very much this Gnome Shell, appreciate the effort Gnome guys are putting in trying new concepts, even if they fail, because if no one tries, how we will improve?

Reply Score: 2

GNOME Shell
by ndrw on Sat 26th Feb 2011 08:19 UTC in reply to "RE: GNOME Hell"
ndrw Member since:
2009-06-30

Gnome Shell is still fully WIMP oriented. Even if it itself can make some use of touch panels, the applications can't. No breakthrough here.

It is not true that in order to improve the experience you have to throw away stuff and start again from scratch. I'd be more happy if Gnome guys instead of rolling off another "best thing ever" had simply fixed the panel. After so many years it still gets messed up when I change the screen resolution and it is next to unusable in a vertical mode.

Reply Score: 2

Beautiful, but too much for too little
by puelocesar on Fri 25th Feb 2011 23:33 UTC
puelocesar
Member since:
2008-10-30

Installed here. I like how beautiful and fluid it is, and how they don't break common design rules like KDE guys always do.

It's still have lot's of bugs and minor problems that ruin the experience, but I think that's understandable for alpha software..

It's not a great concept, but still, a remarkable attempt at trying to improve desktop experience.. That's exactly why I like open source, because there are always people trying to do hot new stuff, independently of how money they will make with it or not

Reply Score: 2

GnomeShell
by OSGuy on Sat 26th Feb 2011 22:09 UTC
OSGuy
Member since:
2006-01-01

comment deleted by me.

Edited 2011-02-26 22:14 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Hmmm, weird
by vodoomoth on Mon 28th Feb 2011 14:24 UTC
vodoomoth
Member since:
2010-03-30

I'm curious to know how life on a desktop without a window list, a maximize button and a minimize button feels like. I think I would hate it but I don't plan on finding out.

Why do developers/designers seem to NEED to make changes? Even without a window list or a dock where to recover minimized windows from, a minimize button would have equated the "hide" option on Mac OS X; that would have been useful. Sometimes, even if it's rare for me, people maximize windows. I often found myself hitting F11 in Opera lately for badly designed/coded pages. Moreover the link they gave in their announcement message about these buttons is broken...

The message, found at http://www.mail-archive.com/gnome-shell-list@gnome.org/msg02527.htm..., makes it even less justifiable in my eyes (but I'm not an insider).

As to the Power Off option disappearing in favor of a Suspend option (which, according to a previous commenter, is problematic on some BIOS implementations), beyond the pointlessness that the author of the linked article sees, it seems even incomprehensible to me. But once again, I'm not an insider and I can only guess that the designers and coders in the Gnome team have studied their users' habits.

Reply Score: 2