Yesterday, we linked to a story about the most recent allegations Sony made against George 'GeoHot' Hotz in their ongoing court case. Supposedly, Hotz has sabotaged the hardware he had to hand over, and he had fled the country to further stifle the court case, among other things. Hotz' lawyer, as well as Hotz himself, have responded to these allegations. The gist? They're all nonsense.
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Member since:
2005-11-14
Well, it was the neutral party and not SCEA that accused Hotz of delivering tampered/incomplete hard drives. SCEA used the letters between the neutral party and Hotz's lawyers to file a complaint.
Then when asked for those parts Hotz's lawyers informed the neutral party that they could not provide them because Hotz was not in the country. Of course, after all the negativity that ensued the parts showed up and were delivered to the neutral party.
The e-mail exchange between the lawyers and the neutral party:
From: Michael Grennier [redacted email address]
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 7:56 AM
To: Stewart Kellar; Gaudreau, Holly
Cc: Robert Kleeger; Yasha Heidari; Boroumand Smith, Mehrnaz; Bricker, Ryan; Jack C. Praetzellis;
[redacted email address][redacted email address]
Subject: Imaging of encrypted drives. CRM:0003005
All,
We took the drives out of our evidence locker and the evidence bag to image them in their current encrypted state
as stated in the order and agreed to on our phone call yesterday. We have determined that the controller cards
which are screwed onto the hard drives were removed prior to them being given to us. Therefore we are unable
to operate the hard drives in their current state. Keep in mind that we need two days to image these drives as we
have to image two 1TB drives.
I would recommend that Mr. Hotz forward to us immediately both the hard drive controller cards, screws and
anything else he may have including the complete computer system (minus the monitor, keyboard and mouse) so
that we can be prepared to complete the forensic imaging process (both encrypted and un-encrypted).
The drives have been returned to the evidence bag and locker at this time.
Regards,
Mike
Michael Grennier, CFCE, EnCE
TheIntelligenceGroup"
"Merhnaz,
Your concerns are completely unfounded. To the contrary, Mr. Hotz has gone above and beyond what he has been required to do. Mr. Hotz was ordered to provide his hard drives and storage devices on which any circumvention devices were stored-- nothing more. As your co-counsel is aware, Mr. Hotz is currently out of the country, so your unilateral demand to have him provide the controllers by noon tomorrow is not only unreasonable, but simply not possible. No explanation is necessary as Mr. Hotz fully complied with the terms of the Court's order.
Best regards, Yasha
_____________________________________
Yasha Heidari
"
Edited 2011-03-24 23:07 UTC
Member since:2009-09-23
which are screwed onto the hard drives were removed prior to them being given to us. Therefore we are unable
to operate the hard drives in their current state.
vs.
Anyone realizing that we are talking about totally distinct pieces of electronics? The complaint about the sabotaged hard drives is _clearly_ talking about the controller circuits which are mounted onto the hard drives. Those are totally different to any external controller cards which plug into the PCI/PCI Express slots of a PC and _cannot_ be purchased at any electronics hardware store.
And I, while I support Geohot in his arguments against Sony regarding the overall process, have to admit that unless the neutral investigators are not making false statements here and the controller circuit boards have been removed from the hard drives, then Geohot has clearly sabotaged the hardware as it not possible to read out the hard drives in such a state unless you are working at a forensic data company like OnTrack and obviously no hard drives are sold without these controller circuit boards.
One has to be very careful to listen to the arguments of both parties and scrutinize the facts as both parties are obviously fighting with unfair weapons.
Adrian
Edited 2011-03-25 10:30 UTC
Member since:2005-07-24
I believe the device in question is not the hard drive boards, but external encryption devices.
Something akin to the following:
http://www.cooldrives.com/encryption-pci-adapter-x-wall-chip.html
(linked merely because it was the first result - I'm lazy... ).
From all the comments, this appears to be the case.
The e-mail from the neutral seems to indicate that they are able to access the data, but it is encrypted and they need a compatible controller card to decrypt the data.
Which is exactly what I would do if they wanted my hard drives ;-) ( though, they would have a much harder time imaging my hard drive collection... I have 8 or more, I dunno, and a drawer FULL of others.... maybe 30-40 drives... all with data... ).
I rotate :-)
--The loon
Member since:2005-08-12
No. If you read the actual email exchange here you will see they are indeed referring to the boards on the drives themselves:
http://www.groklaw.net/pdf2/SonyvHotz-104-19.pdf
A quote: "Your client has not provided a “hard drive” but rather parts of the hard drive. A “hard drive” must contain all the parts that make it a working device which include the enclosure, platters, heads and attached controller card. This controller card is installed at the factory and not normally removed or handled by an end user."
Member since:2005-07-24
Ah.. never read that.
Thanks for the link.
Oh well, time will tell what happens...
--The loon
This part made me believe what I said:
"Mr. Hots was ordere to provide his hard drives and storage devices on which any circumvention devices were stored-- nothing more."
I read that as being he provided the drives, not the means to read them ( i.e. and attached encryption device ) - now I see that as referring to the PS3 hacking itself...
Edited 2011-03-27 17:03 UTC
Member since:2011-03-16
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2009-03-17
Member since:2011-03-16
Member since:
2005-11-18
When Sony make allegations, he's forced into a defensive position. To me, when anybody's in a position of defending themselves against a barrage of accusations - true or false - it eventually whittles away your credibility. An unfortunate reality (well, more my perception than reality.)
This is the age of sound bites. Outside of court, defending one self in the media is wasted breath. It lends credibility to the accuser and diminishes your own.
Hotz needs accusations of his own and he should be unrelenting.
Member since:
2006-12-05
How much more nonsense does Sony have to make up before the court finally declares them full of shit?
Sony repeatedly makes bogus accusations, GeoHot and his lawyers fully debunk them. And is the lawsuit even out of the "keep-this-in-California" phase yet? Has it got, you know, to the entire point of the suit in the first place--whether or not hacking your PS3 is legal as it is for cell phones and other mobile devices?
I don't know why GeoHot is so intrigued by the Xperia or whatever the hell it is, or *any* Sony device for that matter. I've seen an interview of him on YouTube where he describes his opinion on the subject, but I still do not see how--even with all the bullshit Sony is spewing out about him--he is still interested in buying/using their products.
I think he's far, far too trusting and gives them way too much respect, especially considering what they're doing to him. Still, I respect what he's doing for proprietary hardware "owners" around the world... even though it's Sony who brought on the court battle, not him.
Member since:2011-03-16
What are you talking about? Hotz left the country exactly as asserted by Sony. The third party says the complete drives have not been provided. Hotz says that's a problem because he fled the country. Hotz even admits Sony is correct, in that he's in South America. If this were a criminal case, it would likely be enough to justify evidence tampering and/or destruction of evidence and fleeing the country.
Thus far, Hotz is doing a wonderful job of making making it appear he's uncooperative, deceitful, fled the country, evidence tampering and/or destruction of evidence.
If anything, Hotz is completely vindicating Sony in their case. Thus far, it doesn't appear Sony is in the wrong here.
You may have issue with the cause given for the initial suit, but ignoring that, Sony is clearly smelling good here.
Member since:2011-03-08
But that is a good thing. If you buy a car from Ford, you are allowed to do whatever you please. People do, and sell, modifications to regular cars all the time. Some of those modifications can make your car not work sooner, or even immediately. Ford has no dog in that fight. As long as the person selling the modifications, or the plans for the modification, do not claim to represent Ford, there is nothing you, I, or Ford can do. Theoretically, this should be applicable in the computer world. It isn't because of stupid laws made by bought, corrupt politicians. Frankly, if you aren't on the hackers side, you are against every person that has ever rigged anything to work outside the box. And that is damn near everybody on Earth.
Member since:2011-01-14
Why on Earth would Ford want to sue someone because they modified their own car and now it doesn't work? If anything were to happen, it would probably be the owner suing Ford for their car breaking down too soon. And that sort of case should be thrown out straight away, seeing as modifying your own car would void your warranty, and so it not working is your own responsibility. It's ridiculous that you think Ford should sue anyone for modifying their own car!
Oh, and a small point there: I wasn't aware Geohot was *selling* the know-how, was anyone else here?
Member since:2007-09-06
I didn't realize the case had been completed and Mr Hotz found unequivically guilty of any crime? Maybe we want to wait until he's actually found guilty before assigning guilt? Seems there is somethign in the legal system about it suposingly working that way.
As other's have also pointed out. Your desire for a world where corporate business interests dictate private citizen's legal freedoms is a very scary one. You really aught to rethink that as the freedom to reverse engineer and modify one's own rightfully purchased property is a corner stone of technological advancement and engineering.
As for the car analogy; what does Ford care if a car owner's vehicle has been modified beyond being street legal? It's not Ford's concern; it's purely between the owner and the local police assuming the first is driving the vehicle on public roads patrolled by the second. Is it also unacceptable to you if a car owner modifies there vehicle beyond being street legal then only drives it on closed tracks?
Member since:2011-03-16
Member since:2006-02-15
This is a very poor analogy. As other have said it is solely on the owner's responsibility to maintain the car's street legality, if the owner does modifications that make it no longer fulfill the legality requirements then it's again only the owner who is at fault. It has nothing to do with Ford.
Secondly, Ford itself also encourages one to modify one's car. Even just something as small as adding neon lights, or replacing speakers is still a modification, and you can find plenty of such information on their forums. And that's perfectly all right.
Thirdly, Ford would be stupid to go out and start suing people. It is just extra money for them if people blow up their cars and have to buy new ones!
Member since:2005-08-18
Member since:2011-03-16
You do know that this is perfectly legal right? Or are you just completly ignorant? "
Yes, its exactly like that exact that its completely unlike that. LOL.
The simple fact is, Ford doesn't even sale their vehicles at a loss so they can make money on parts and service - which IS what Sony does. Furthermore, Sony is protected by various IP laws, none of which are comparable to your poor analogy.
Member since:
2008-11-27
Speaking of Hotz... this is not ment as critique of his work or anything. Just a simple observation...
Anyone noticed something weird about him? In his videos he can go from happy to serious to looking almost depressed to just acting plain weird. And why does one of his eyelids move independantly up and down when he speaks? Take an extra notice in the interview on his blog.
Is our young hero a bit mad? Don't tell me I'm the only one who have noticed this?
Member since:
2007-09-06
Am I understanding this right? He handed over hard drives after removing the green boards that come attached to them? This isn't him handing over fully functional hard drives without some seporate PCI daughter board stuffed between hard drives and motherboard?
The little controller boards that come attached to the hard drive when you buy it.. why would someone remove those other than to be a doush? When I buy hard drives, they don't arrive with a note saying "now just go out to your local store and buy the circuite board normally found attached as part of this product. What next.. Is flash storage to be handed over as raw flash chips once removed from the thumdrive's board?
I think Sony's case needs to be laughed out of court promptly but both sides behaving like children doesn't resolve the issue. I really hope the situation is being incorrectly reported otherwise this seems about the same as Mr Gates being childishly obtuse during questioning.
Member since:2005-08-12
The little controller boards that come attached to the hard drive when you buy it.. why would someone remove those other than to be a doush?
Exactly, he handed over drives with parts missing (or more acurrately - intentionally removed).
Member since:2005-07-06
Fair enough.
I doubt that would stand up in court, unless the manufacturers' lawyers were incompetent enough to write a warranty that didn't explicitly exclude that.
I guess it depends on what you mean by "find support". Are there some folks who would support him? Perhaps; the world is full of dumb people. Would most people on this board support him? I doubt that. The GPL fans would have to disagree with that route out of consistency; otherwise any user who tinkered with GPL code, and broke their system, let alone their hardware, could sue them. (The GPL explicitly excludes even the implied warranty of merchantability or fitness for a purpose).
It's unfortunate that we live in a lawsuit-happy world, and that corporations have to squander money defending themselves against frivolous lawsuits. On the other hand, the same corporations haven't shown themselves averse to filing frivolous lawsuits. Even supporters of software patents admit that a great number of the lawsuits out there are nonsense.
Edited 2011-03-25 14:18 UTC
Member since:2011-03-16
It's unfortunate that we live in a lawsuit-happy world
Seems to imply you live in the US. The US is quite likely the most litigious country in the history of mankind. In much of the rest of the world, they are typically not quite so idiotic. In fact, the closer you get to New York and California, the stronger the idiocy seems to become.
Member since:2006-01-26
And there you have it... hackers need to be locked up because they provide tools to fscking morons who don't know how to use them properly.
While we're at it, let's outlaw screwdrivers because they might open up their devices and fiddle with them. You keep trying to defend your position there buddy - the rest of us are planning to actually live our free lives.
Member since:2005-08-18
Wow, damn, you sure aren't one of the sharper tools. You do realize, I hope, that there's a difference between a void warranty and a court case? No one is saying Sony has to support hacked devices, dumbass.
Yes, he can.
No, they dont have to.
Member since:
2006-08-15
Member since:
2005-08-12
a) http://www.groklaw.net/pdf2/SonyvHotz-104-19.pdf
Hotz intentionally removed the controller boards from the hard drives themselves (and we're NOT talking about a PCI/RAID card as some try to spin it), and...
b) has traveled out of the country while other people fund his legal bills.
What a schmuck!
Edited 2011-03-25 19:33 UTC
Member since:2006-02-15
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Again, even if he didn't travel he still wouldn't have been able to pay the legal fees himself. And as he paid for the tickets way before he got sued the money ain't in any way or form away from the donations.
Besides, why is it inappropriate for him to want some reprieve from all this ruckus when Sony executives themselves travel around the world and party away and you ain't saying a thing? That is called hypocrisy, you know. He is fulfilling all the requirements defined by the court and does make himself available 24/7, and thus there simply is nothing "inappropriate" in him seeing his friend.
Member since:2005-08-12
Besides, why is it inappropriate for him to want some reprieve from all this ruckus when Sony executives themselves travel around the world and party away and you ain't saying a thing? That is called hypocrisy, you know. He is fulfilling all the requirements defined by the court and does make himself available 24/7, and thus there simply is nothing "inappropriate" in him seeing his friend.
I wouldn't call intentionally trying to sabotage data recovery from the hard drives to exactly be 'fulfilling all the requirements' in a forthright manner. ...not to mention using the excuse of him being out of the country so as to be unable to supply the missing parts he should have provided to begin with...
Given the above, and that both Hotz and his lawyer acted in a shady manner on that issue, it calls into question his true reason for travel. Remember, this was in dealing with the neutral third party and not even Sony on that.
In any case, it's not hypocrisy at all. Again, Hotz is the one who committed the offense and is 'suffering' under the kindness of strangers to pay his way on this case. The responsible thing would be to avoid any behavior which suggests an act of impropriety.
Member since:2005-08-18
Meh, it's more like fucking with them and seriously, if you have a hard time replacing missing controllers maybe you shouldnt call yourself a recovery expert.
That's more a fact than an excuse. He's abroad so obviously he can't supply them right now.
Really? What happened to innocent until proven guilty?
Member since:
2011-03-16
in order to escape... a civil case?
Happens all the time. That statement is silly.
Hotz is in South America
Sounds like he left the country to me. Sure, he may intend to come back but nobody but him knows this for sure.
Kellar told Ars that it's impossible to take a vacation from a lawsuit,
Yes, its clearly so impossible there exist specific procedures to deal with this extremely common issue.
Could their reply be any more absurd? It would be difficult.
Let's see, party A sues. Party B leaves the country. Party B says accounts provided by A isn't true because the assertions are true. WTH?!