Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 26th May 2011 21:27 UTC, submitted by poundsmack
KDE "KDE has released a first beta of the upcoming 4.7 release of the Plasma Desktop and Netbook workspaces, the KDE Applications and the KDE Frameworks, which is planned for July 27, 2011. With API, dependency and feature freezes in place, the KDE team's focus is now on fixing bugs and further polishing new and old functionality."
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Cool.
by Drumhellar on Thu 26th May 2011 22:14 UTC
Drumhellar
Member since:
2005-07-12

I've become a big fan of KDE again. I loved it up till 4.x, which is when it changed dramatically, and distros that had it made it crappy. However, I've been using Kubuntu 11.04 lately, and I must say, I really like it.

Reply Score: 5

kwin performance
by _xmv on Thu 26th May 2011 22:44 UTC
_xmv
Member since:
2008-12-09

my only real gripe with kde4 is kwin performance. is nowhere near as smooth as compiz fusion and others.
and that's a i7 with a rather fast intel graphics (yeah yeah its not an heavy 3D game but hell, its WAY more than kwin should need - and certainly compiz/win7 and even osx run extremely smooth)

Reply Score: 5

RE: kwin performance
by Drumhellar on Thu 26th May 2011 22:58 UTC in reply to "kwin performance"
Drumhellar Member since:
2005-07-12

It runs great with my mediocre laptop, but only if I use proprietary drivers. Then again, same holds true for Compiz.

I know that's not very hopeful.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: kwin performance
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Thu 26th May 2011 23:03 UTC in reply to "RE: kwin performance"
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

For my Radeon based setups, the open source driver runs much, much better on Compiz than kwin. I defiantly think there is a lot of room for performance improvements in kwin. The ATI drivers are much faster, but tend to be less stable. Kwin's feature set is useful enough that I tolerate the less than flawless performance.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: kwin performance
by No it isnt on Thu 26th May 2011 23:22 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: kwin performance"
No it isnt Member since:
2005-11-14

I've got a Radeon card running on the open source driver, and installed the new beta yesterday due to a bug in the stable version of Archlinux's Akregator (true story), and it does seem a bit smoother, especially for the exposé-like effect, but still not quite as fast as compiz.

Edited 2011-05-26 23:22 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: kwin performance
by lemur2 on Thu 26th May 2011 23:23 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: kwin performance"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

For my Radeon based setups, the open source driver runs much, much better on Compiz than kwin. I defiantly think there is a lot of room for performance improvements in kwin. The ATI drivers are much faster, but tend to be less stable. Kwin's feature set is useful enough that I tolerate the less than flawless performance.


You can always run KDE with compiz as the window manager.

Go to System Settings --> Default Applications --> Window Manager --> Use a different window manager

I think this requires you to install a helper application (it may be called kde-compiz) which will also install compiz itself as a dependency.

Having said that, the Radeon drivers are improving very rapidly:

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=OTQ4OQ

This is great on Arch Linux, which has rolling updates. In general Arch will pick up new stuff like this within a month or so. The Radeon drivers have already improved markedly twice this year, and the default (on Arch Linux anyway) has now switched from the classic mesa driver over to Gallium3D.

Edited 2011-05-26 23:29 UTC

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: kwin performance
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Fri 27th May 2011 00:41 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: kwin performance"
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

Yes, I've run kde with compiz before. I prefer kwin and all of its useful composting tricks, like the psuedo aero snap.

I'm thinking/have thought about moving to arch. I'm just a bit afraid it will end up like gentoo. I'm okay with being a few months off of the bleeding edge.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: kwin performance
by lemur2 on Fri 27th May 2011 00:49 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: kwin performance"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Yes, I've run kde with compiz before. I prefer kwin and all of its useful composting tricks, like the psuedo aero snap.


Fair enough. Kwin in KDE 4.7 has lower OpenGL requirements, and so it should run faster, even on less capable hardware.

I'm thinking/have thought about moving to arch. I'm just a bit afraid it will end up like gentoo. I'm okay with being a few months off of the bleeding edge.


Also perfectly fair enough. Running Arch is indeed a case of "riding too close to the bleeding edge" for many people.

Edited 2011-05-27 00:51 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: kwin performance
by leech on Sat 28th May 2011 02:24 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: kwin performance"
leech Member since:
2006-01-10

I'm loving the Arch. So far the only thing I've had a real issue with was the combination of transparent terminals, the nVidia driver and Xorg 1.10. Apparently some were having this issue under Gnome with transparent terminals as well, but in KDE4.6.x if you tried to resize the terminal window, it'd lock up your whole computer. Downgrading Xorg and a few packages of it to 1.9.4 fixed the issue. So I keep looking for updates to that since I held the packages.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: kwin performance
by sirspudd on Tue 31st May 2011 08:59 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: kwin performance"
sirspudd Member since:
2010-10-13

The only real similarity is that you can be overly aggressive in tracking new packages if you want to be. If you restrain yourself to updating once a week/fortnight it is fantastic. (Happy Arch user surrounded by an increasingly large pool of happy Arch users)

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: kwin performance
by lemur2 on Tue 31st May 2011 10:56 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: kwin performance"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

The only real similarity is that you can be overly aggressive in tracking new packages if you want to be. If you restrain yourself to updating once a week/fortnight it is fantastic. (Happy Arch user surrounded by an increasingly large pool of happy Arch users)


Arch is amazing. Not long ago on this very thread, I posted a message about how using OpenGL with kwin and the open source drivers was not up to snuff performance-wise, and that it was better to use Xrender with kwin.

Just a minute ago I did an update on Arch, and I noticed that Xorg-server was upgraded to version 1.10.2-2.

http://www.archlinux.org/packages/testing/x86_64/xorg-server/

So on a hunch, I reverted my Desktop Effects settings back to use OpenGL rendering, and I enabled the fps monitor. Yep, kwin is now rendering the desktop fairly solidly at 60 fps (locked to the monitor screen refresh rate), with only an occasional flicker down to 59 fps. I can now watch full-screen 720p videos from YouTube without any hesitation, even when kwin is using OpenGL to render.

I have got the virtual desktop switch spinning cube effect back again, all of a sudden!

Arch is amazing.

Edited 2011-05-31 11:00 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: kwin performance
by siride on Sat 28th May 2011 17:13 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: kwin performance"
siride Member since:
2006-01-02

I've had the opposite experience, or rather, KWin with OS radeon driver runs quite smoothly with a few minor exceptions with some effects I don't use. If I put it on XRender instead of OpenGL, it's smooth as butter (except for the vblank synching, of course).

Reply Score: 2

RE: kwin performance
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Thu 26th May 2011 23:00 UTC in reply to "kwin performance"
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

From the link:


KWin, Plasma's window manager now supports OpenGL-ES 2.0, improving performance and deployability on mobile devices


That may also help on desktop devices as well.

Also interesting from the link (http://www.kdenews.org/2011/02/18/kwin-embraces-new-platforms-openg...) describing those changes..

The work on OpenGL ES not only brings improvements for the use of KDE Plasma on mobile devices, but also significant performance improvements to all users of the Plasma Workspaces. The code written for the mobile platform is reused in KWin for the Plasma Desktop and Plasma Netbook Workspaces.


It goes on to describe how this is a necessary step to moving to wayland in the future! There is also a video of it running on a n900 and an unspecified intel tablet.

Reply Score: 7

RE: kwin performance
by lemur2 on Thu 26th May 2011 23:13 UTC in reply to "kwin performance"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

my only real gripe with kde4 is kwin performance. is nowhere near as smooth as compiz fusion and others. and that's a i7 with a rather fast intel graphics (yeah yeah its not an heavy 3D game but hell, its WAY more than kwin should need - and certainly compiz/win7 and even osx run extremely smooth)


At various stages in the KDE 4 evolution kwin did indeed have poor performance at some releases. Sometimes this was due to kwin itself, and at other times it has been due to kwin exposing deficiencies in underlying drivers that have been dormant for years (with no programs actually exercising the drivers in that way).

Lately though, it has picked up again. On my modest Athlon 64x2 system, kwin with compositing (Arch Linux, KDE 4.6.3) is faster and more responsive than Windows. Some time ago I used to have to temporarily switch off kwin compositing (Shift + Alt + F12) if I wanted to view anything but the smallest of videos smoothly, but lately that has not been necessary.

Reply Score: 6

RE: kwin performance
by Damnshock on Fri 27th May 2011 09:18 UTC in reply to "kwin performance"
Damnshock Member since:
2006-09-15

It runs *perfectly* on my 5 year old laptop with a crappy Intel 945GM (added an extra gig of ram and changed hard drive though)

IMHO if a DE runs this smooth in 5year old hardware it means it's doing great!

If it's not smooth in an i7 there must be a problem somewhere else, I doubt it's kwin's fault.

Regards

Reply Score: 3

v Good for KDE
by tyrione on Thu 26th May 2011 23:43 UTC
RE: Good for KDE
by BluenoseJake on Thu 26th May 2011 23:47 UTC in reply to "Good for KDE"
BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

Considering OpenGL is at version 4, they both are pretty far behind

Reply Score: 6

RE: Good for KDE
by lemur2 on Fri 27th May 2011 00:27 UTC in reply to "Good for KDE"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

They are now getting OpenGL ES 2.0 [a subset of 2.0] when OS X is getting full OpenGL 3.x in Quartz.


That is very confused.

What KDE is doing is making kwin's compositing depend only on OpenGL ES 2.0 [a subset of 2.0] wheras OS X is dependent full OpenGL 3.x in Quartz.

Ergo, KDE will be able to run on mobiles and handhelds, whereas OSX and Quartz won't.

http://kde.org/announcements/announce-4.7-beta1.php

Hence the statement in the original article:

FTA:
The 4.7 release will bring a number of exciting improvments:

KWin, Plasma's window manager now supports OpenGL-ES 2.0, improving performance and deployability on mobile devices


Understand?

The 4.7 release of KDE won't require a full-blown OpenGL feature set in order to run composited, it is reducing the requirements so it can run composited (and hence hardware GPU accelerated) even on mobiles and handhelds.

BluenoseJake:
Considering OpenGL is at version 4, they both are pretty far behind


KDE and kwin compositing doesn't provide OpenGL, it uses it.

http://www.kdenews.org/2011/02/18/kwin-embraces-new-platforms-openg...
Over the last few months the KWin development team worked on bringing the Window Manager for KDE's Plasma workspaces to mobile devices. This has required porting the compositing code to OpenGL ES 2.0, the open graphics API for programmable embedded graphics hardware. With the migration of KWin's codebase to git, the code was imported into the master development tree to be part of the next release of the KDE Platform.

The import of the OpenGL ES 2.0 code base marks an important milestone in developing a Plasma Workspace for mobile devices. Providing a mobile shell also requires us to deliver a fast, feature rich and mature compositing window manager. With KWin, KDE can deliver a proven and mature compositor for devices like the Nokia N900 and upcoming tablet devices (in the video to the right, KWin is running on an early Intel-powered tablet and a Nokia N900). KWin is the first major X11 window manager to offer these capabilities.

The work on OpenGL ES not only brings improvements for the use of KDE Plasma on mobile devices, but also significant performance improvements to all users of the Plasma Workspaces. The code written for the mobile platform is reused in KWin for the Plasma Desktop and Plasma Netbook Workspaces. It also provides the basis for a new OpenGL 2-based compositor while keeping the existing codebase as a fallback for legacy graphics cards not supporting OpenGL 2.

KWin is therefore the first major window manager to make full use of the capabilities provided by OpenGL 2 without leaving users of older hardware behind. KWin is the only window manager to support a non-composited mode, as well as OpenGL ES 2.0, OpenGL 2, OpenGL 1 and XRender for compositing. Thus, the Plasma Workspaces provide the best possible user experience even with no hardware acceleration. At the same time, KWin delivers the best compositing experience to users of modern hardware, providing smooth effects and improved visual effects such as the gaussian blur filter for translucent Plasma elements.

By implementing an OpenGL 2 compositor, the complete effect framework received performance improvements; more are still to come. Various parts of the OpenGL stack were abstracted to better support both OpenGL 1 and OpenGL 2 in the effects. This eases future development and maintenance of the code base. Improvements to the underlying rendering stack will be available immediately for all effects.


My oh my, that backfired a bit on you both, didn't it?

Edited 2011-05-27 00:47 UTC

Reply Score: 13

v RE[2]: Good for KDE
by BluenoseJake on Fri 27th May 2011 01:02 UTC in reply to "RE: Good for KDE"
RE[3]: Good for KDE
by lemur2 on Fri 27th May 2011 01:14 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Good for KDE"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Uh, not really, as I am fully aware that KDE doesn't provide OpenGL, I was trying to make a point, and it's a simple one: OS X is not using (or providing) the most recent version of OpenGL. Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I should have been, but please, that huge vomit of text taken straight from the same posting that you had just linked is a little over the top, don't you think? I think perhaps you may have been drinking from the same kool-aid that myself and tyrione were slurping down, that sweet drink that makes us want to show up all the other mouthy bastards that hang around here. I'm pretty sure you probably knew what I meant, and just wanted to stir the pot a bit, and, hey, that's cool, nobody enjoys a little pot stirring more than myself, but come on, scrape the bottom of the barrel much?


Nice try, but no cigar. You aren't getting away with that.

Here is what you said:
Considering OpenGL is at version 4, they both are pretty far behind


Since KDE doesn't provide OpenGL but rather uses it (same as OSX), the fact that KDE can now work with a lower OpenGL requirement puts it far ahead of other environments (including OSX). This is an improved capability of KDE, not a retrograde one. Certainly tyrione made this mistake.

I know you didn't actually say that it was KDE that "was pretty far behind" (and so you probably didn't make the same error) ... but becasue this thread is about KDE that is the impression you seemed to be out to create.

Quoting the text in context clears up the error and removes the negative connotations tyrione was trying to establish.

Edited 2011-05-27 01:23 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Good for KDE
by avgalen on Fri 27th May 2011 01:53 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Good for KDE"
avgalen Member since:
2010-09-23

but would it use the benefits of version 3 or 4 if the hardware supported it?
Not requiring the latest and greatest is good (IE9 not on XP...bad) but not taking advantage of the latest and greatest when it is available is bad (IE9 on 7 using DirectWrite...good)

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Good for KDE
by lemur2 on Fri 27th May 2011 02:26 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Good for KDE"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

but would it use the benefits of version 3 or 4 if the hardware supported it? Not requiring the latest and greatest is good (IE9 not on XP...bad) but not taking advantage of the latest and greatest when it is available is bad (IE9 on 7 using DirectWrite...good)


KDE is written primarily to work on Linux, but because of the hardware abstraction layers (Phonon and Solid) it can actually work on a number of platforms.

OpenGL support on Linux is only available up to OpenGL 2.0 or 2.1 for a lot of drivers. In many cases, the driver supports only a lower version of OpenGL than the hardware of the card does.

Here is the picture for one open source driver:

http://wiki.x.org/wiki/RadeonFeature

Only the closed nVidia driver, AFAIK, supports OpenGL 4. OpenGL support on Windows is also very sporadic.

Using later features of OpenGL (i.e. OpenGL 3.x and OpenGL 4.x) in this context would only make it possible to have fancier effects. In other words, more bling.

Requiring only widely available features of earlier versions (i.e. mature parts) of OpenGL in this context means faster hardware acceleration of desktop rendering, working on a wider range of hardware including legacy hardware and mobiles, but less of the really fancy bling. Using less of the available GPU hardware resources for the desktop itself leaves more available for applications.

Which approach would you rather?

Edited 2011-05-27 02:36 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: Good for KDE
by hussam on Fri 27th May 2011 02:31 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Good for KDE"
hussam Member since:
2006-08-17

Only the closed nVidia driver, AFAIK, supports OpenGL 4. OpenGL support on Windows is also very sporadic.

You also need a new nvidia card for opengl 4.0
Even requiring opengl 3.0 for kwin will stop people with cards older than 8xxx series from using kwin with opengl compositing. I used to run a opengl 2.1 card and now I upgraded to a card that supports opengl 4.1

Edited 2011-05-27 02:35 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: Good for KDE
by bouhko on Fri 27th May 2011 03:21 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Good for KDE"
bouhko Member since:
2010-06-24

I'm not even sure there are that many OpenGL 3/4 features that are of interest for a window manager. Most of the changes where targeted at games (shader branching, geometry shaders, etc...).

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: Good for KDE
by twitterfire on Fri 27th May 2011 08:32 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Good for KDE"
twitterfire Member since:
2008-09-11

Using less of the available GPU hardware resources for the desktop itself leaves more available for applications.

Which approach would you rather?


That's not entirely true. Which GPU stressing apps are you using in Linux? All apps using OpenGL and running on Linux doesn't stress the GPU too much. And even if they do stress the GPU, running full screen makes the GPU use the resources only for that app and not for desktop drawing.

Even if you use the full capabilities in OpenGL 4, you won't consume much resources and even a lousy GPU such as GMA 950 would do the job. Windows 7 Aero use the full power of DirectX but it doesn't use very much GPU power. I think the same is true for Os X quartz.

As someone said in this thread, not using the latest and greatest when you can it's a waste. The only logical reason for KDE and Compiz to use OpenGL ES 2.0 would be to support Wayland.

Reply Score: 4

RE[7]: Good for KDE
by lemur2 on Fri 27th May 2011 09:33 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Good for KDE"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

That's not entirely true. Which GPU stressing apps are you using in Linux? All apps using OpenGL and running on Linux doesn't stress the GPU too much. And even if they do stress the GPU, running full screen makes the GPU use the resources only for that app and not for desktop drawing.

Even if you use the full capabilities in OpenGL 4, you won't consume much resources and even a lousy GPU such as GMA 950 would do the job. Windows 7 Aero use the full power of DirectX but it doesn't use very much GPU power. I think the same is true for Os X quartz.

As someone said in this thread, not using the latest and greatest when you can it's a waste. The only logical reason for KDE and Compiz to use OpenGL ES 2.0 would be to support Wayland.


Turnig off the kwin compositing (or even the compiz compositing) definitely improves the OpenGL performance of applications.

The Cost Of Running Compiz
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=compiz_speed_tes...

Even when OpenGL games and benchmarks are running full-screen, in some configurations there still is a penalty imposed by Compiz. Compiz does not stop itself when a game or application is running full-screen even though you are not using any Compiz plug-ins or desktop effects and as such, indirect rendering is still being used.


Does Compiz Still Slow Down Your System?
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=compiz_2011_hits...

Those results from nearly one year ago showed that the open-source Intel and ATI Radeon drivers took an approximate 15% performance hit when Compiz was running rather than GNOME's Metacity when using Kernel mode-setting and DRI2. With the proprietary Catalyst driver there was little impact along with NVIDIA's binary driver, but there still was a performance penalty in some tests.

Since it's been nearly one year since those tests were carried out, and the Linux graphics drivers have advanced a great deal, particularly the open-source Gallium3D drivers, I have performed a new set of benchmarks to see if running Compiz with full-screen games at the server's native resolution still hurts the overall performance. The Compiz performance is also becoming more important since this compositing window manager is to play a critical role in Canonical's Unity Desktop for Ubuntu 11.04.


Mutter Can Cause A Gaming/OpenGL Performance Hit Too
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=mutter_composite...

KWin Can Cause A Performance Hit Too, But It's Different From Compiz
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=kwin_speed_test&...

To answer the question of those that were wondering about how KDE/KWin affects the gaming performance, yes, depending upon the graphics processor and driver there can be a performance hit similar to that of running Compiz due to the compositing that still takes place within a full-screen application. However, the performance between running Compiz and KWin is not always the same.


Edited 2011-05-27 09:44 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Good for KDE
by leech on Sat 28th May 2011 03:02 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Good for KDE"
leech Member since:
2006-01-10

As someone said in this thread, not using the latest and greatest when you can it's a waste. The only logical reason for KDE and Compiz to use OpenGL ES 2.0 would be to support Wayland.


No, as said in the article, the reason for them to support OpenGL ES 2.0 is for Mobiles and tablets that only support the ES and not the full OpenGL spec.

Like my most infinitely awesome Nokia N900. When can I get a stable image of the mobile version of KDE 4 on it??!?!?!

Hmm, Maemo 5, MeeGo, NITDroid, and soon Kubuntu Mobile. Seriously this phone is like every geek's wet dream.

Edited 2011-05-28 03:05 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: Good for KDE
by r_a_trip on Fri 27th May 2011 09:13 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Good for KDE"
r_a_trip Member since:
2005-07-06

Which approach would you rather?

I know I'd rather have that OpenGL ES 2.0 support, but some people only look at version numbers. The bigger the numbers, the more better!

That and the fact that most people don't care if their fellows can't use the latest and greatest if they happen to have the stuff themselves to run it already in their shiny new machines.

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: Good for KDE
by BluenoseJake on Fri 27th May 2011 09:29 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Good for KDE"
BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

Nice try, but no cigar. You aren't getting away with that.


What? Arrogant much? Your condescension isn't even worth continuing this comment.

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: Good for KDE
by lemur2 on Fri 27th May 2011 13:09 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Good for KDE"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"Nice try, but no cigar. You aren't getting away with that.


What? Arrogant much? Your condescension isn't even worth continuing this comment.
"

I was going to say "Diddums" but then I realised you aren't upset at all at what you claim is my condescension, you are simply trying a different tack at misdirection and trying to take this thread away from the topic of the awesomeness of the KDE desktop.

That is actually pretty smooth. Good one.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Good for KDE
by WereCatf on Sun 29th May 2011 10:18 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Good for KDE"
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

the fact that KDE can now work with a lower OpenGL requirement puts it far ahead of other environments (including OSX).


It really depends on how you look at it. Sure, it can run on mobile devices better than before, but then again, on desktop computers it's limiting itself to a seriously outdated feature set and could reap some nice performance boost with more modern feature set in use.

This obviously begs two questions: are there really many mobile devices which can even run full KDE experience yet only provides OpenGL ES, and would it be possible to support both OpenGL ES for mobiles for compatibility AND the full-blown OpenGL spec for more capable devices for better performance?

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Good for KDE
by mgraesslin on Sun 29th May 2011 14:19 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Good for KDE"
mgraesslin Member since:
2011-04-07

This obviously begs two questions: are there really many mobile devices which can even run full KDE experience yet only provides OpenGL ES


The OpenGL ES support is primarily for Plasma Active which is exactly not a "full KDE experience". Furthermore OpenGL ES is also a requirment for Wayland, so ES support was not primarily added only for mobile devices.

and would it be possible to support both OpenGL ES for mobiles for compatibility AND the full-blown OpenGL spec for more capable devices for better performance?

Well that's what we are doing. The desktop system uses OpenGL and OpenGL ES needs to be enabled as a compile time option. But don't expect that OpenGL gives you a better performance than OpenGL ES, I would say the opposite is true.

Btw. it doesn't make much sense to raise requirements to OpenGL 3 or 4. They hardly provide anything we need and that can be used with OpenGL 2 plus the additional extensionsion.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Good for KDE
by lemur2 on Mon 30th May 2011 04:48 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Good for KDE"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"the fact that KDE can now work with a lower OpenGL requirement puts it far ahead of other environments (including OSX).
It really depends on how you look at it. Sure, it can run on mobile devices better than before, but then again, on desktop computers it's limiting itself to a seriously outdated feature set and could reap some nice performance boost with more modern feature set in use. This obviously begs two questions: are there really many mobile devices which can even run full KDE experience yet only provides OpenGL ES, and would it be possible to support both OpenGL ES for mobiles for compatibility AND the full-blown OpenGL spec for more capable devices for better performance? "

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=OTUwMQ

From the author:
http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2011/05/plasma-compositor-and...

"The Compositor received a new OpenGL compositor based on OpenGL 2.x or OpenGL ES 2.0. Our default rendering nowadays uses the programmable pipeline instead of fixed functionality as in 4.6. In order to support the programmable pipeline quite some parts had to be rewritten and got optimized at the same time. Overall this brings a vast performance improvement for all users. From my experience this can even be increased when using the OpenGL ES 2.0/EGL backend"

Reply Score: 2

RE: Good for KDE
by Soulbender on Fri 27th May 2011 04:10 UTC in reply to "Good for KDE"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Wow, fascinating. Thanks for that off-topic and entirely unimportant information.

Reply Score: 6

RE: Good for KDE
by No it isnt on Fri 27th May 2011 08:21 UTC in reply to "Good for KDE"
No it isnt Member since:
2005-11-14

The mark of the Apple fanboy: utterly clueless.

Reply Score: 7

RE[2]: Good for KDE
by kragil on Fri 27th May 2011 08:35 UTC in reply to "RE: Good for KDE"
kragil Member since:
2006-01-04

The problem is that there are so many of them (even on this site) that ignoring and downvoting does not seem to work ;-(

Reply Score: 3

Still not 'ready for the desktop'
by sj87 on Fri 27th May 2011 02:43 UTC
sj87
Member since:
2007-12-16

KDE 4.7 B1 still suffers of BOTH Kwin and Plasma crashing upon shutdown. That just is no way an acceptable feature for a mainstream desktop environment. At least they seem to have fixed Kded4, which always got stuck into a infinite loop when Xorg was killed. I am yet to test whether they also fixed other Kded4 problems like ACPI Shutdown key causing a one-minute freeze of the system.

Reply Score: 2

Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

What do you mean by "Crashing upon shutdown"? Do you have a bug you can point to?

I also never ran into the Kded4 infinite loop when xorg was killed. Maybe I'm just better at killing xorg than you are.

Also never experienced the ACPI freeze. What distro were you running? It could also be the video driver. I had terrible problems with kwin stability in the past with one video card at home, but at work it was rock solid.

Reply Score: 5

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

What do you mean by "Crashing upon shutdown"? Do you have a bug you can point to? I also never ran into the Kded4 infinite loop when xorg was killed. Maybe I'm just better at killing xorg than you are. Also never experienced the ACPI freeze. What distro were you running? It could also be the video driver. I had terrible problems with kwin stability in the past with one video card at home, but at work it was rock solid.


Is it just me, or does there seem to be an agenda coming from "lie for Windows" types to try to prevent other people from wanting to try KDE4 in particular?

Reply Score: 4

Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

No, I wouldn't ascribe it to malice. If I hadn't looked into the causes of my problems with kde, I might have thought the same as well.

Its like anything having to do with technology: if you give up when you run into a problem, you'll just go back to what you're used to unless your forced, regardless of the cause of the problem. I'm old enough to remember the gripes tech folk had when they were forced to use Unix instead of VMS, windows instead of dos, windows instead of Macs,Macs instead of Windows,or Linux instead of Unix. Very rarely did those complaints have to do with the technical merits of the old system vs new. Its usually a matter of familiarity. If you try telling them the new system is better than the old for the use case, they often feel like you are telling them they were wrong for being comfortable.

Reply Score: 3

lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Is it just me, or does there seem to be an agenda coming from "lie for Windows" types to try to prevent other people from wanting to try KDE4 in particular?


What is it about the "lie for Linux" types that will make any old-misinformed crap up about Windows which was valid critism in about 1998, but won't listen to any criticism regarding Linux/KDE/Gnome etc?

Edited 2011-05-28 10:38 UTC

Reply Score: 0

WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

I have before mentioned it in another KDE-related story that I always seem to experience random crashes and glitches in KDE. I have no idea why, but for example moving the panel around and/or adjusting its size usually gets me a nice crash which also screws up the rest of the desktop and requires killing X.org. This also has happened on several different hardware configurations and distros, so it's not definitely related to a specific driver or distro.

The general crashiness of KDE is one of those things that quite quickly put me off of it. If the situation hasn't gotten better yet they should definitely work on it then.

Reply Score: 1

Nth_Man Member since:
2010-05-16

In 5 computers it doesn't happen to me using Kubuntu, if you want to try this.

Edited 2011-05-30 00:13 UTC

Reply Score: 2

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

I have before mentioned it in another KDE-related story that I always seem to experience random crashes and glitches in KDE. I have no idea why, but for example moving the panel around and/or adjusting its size usually gets me a nice crash which also screws up the rest of the desktop and requires killing X.org. This also has happened on several different hardware configurations and distros, so it's not definitely related to a specific driver or distro. The general crashiness of KDE is one of those things that quite quickly put me off of it. If the situation hasn't gotten better yet they should definitely work on it then.


I'll see your personal anecdote, and raise it:

I have installed the last four major versions of KDE on each of about seven different computers using a number of different distributions (Arch, Kubuntu, OpenSuse, MEPIS, Fedora and Debian), and I have booted a KDE LiveCD to recover user data on a good many more (primarily on borked Windows machines), and not one of these installations/live boots has exhibited even the slightest indication of glitches or crashes.

I did have an Arch machine recently that went into a kernel panic when I plugged in a USB device, but that was soon fixed by a kernel update, nothing to do with KDE. I had another machine that refused to install to hard disk from a liveCD, but it refused just as badly for GNOME as it did for KDE. In fact it refused to install Windows also, and it turned out this was due to a bad memory stick. Again, nothing to do with KDE.

I have heaps more trouble with Windows.

Reply Score: 2

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

I have before mentioned it in another KDE-related story that I always seem to experience random crashes and glitches in KDE. I have no idea why, but for example moving the panel around and/or adjusting its size usually gets me a nice crash which also screws up the rest of the desktop and requires killing X.org. This also has happened on several different hardware configurations and distros, so it's not definitely related to a specific driver or distro. The general crashiness of KDE is one of those things that quite quickly put me off of it. If the situation hasn't gotten better yet they should definitely work on it then.


Here is another, independent, report on performance, glitchiness and crashiness using the latest drivers and desktop shells.

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=linux_desktop_ma...

Their experience with KDE (compared to GNOME) is also somewhat the opposite of yours.

Reply Score: 2

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

KDE 4.7 B1 still suffers of BOTH Kwin and Plasma crashing upon shutdown. That just is no way an acceptable feature for a mainstream desktop environment. At least they seem to have fixed Kded4, which always got stuck into a infinite loop when Xorg was killed. I am yet to test whether they also fixed other Kded4 problems like ACPI Shutdown key causing a one-minute freeze of the system.


I haven't had any such issue with KDE4 for yonks. KDE 4.0 was a bit flaky, but even that wasn't as bad as the picture you seem to be trying to paint here.

As for being 'ready for the desktop' ... KDE4 is already the best desktop in the sense that it can run in the widest variety of contexts. There is already a desktop version and a netbook version, and a touch version (for tablets and mobiles) is in the works.

Apart from supporting multiple desktops, and a feature similar to Aero snap:

http://linuxology.wordpress.com/2009/12/08/yes-we-can-kde-aero-snap...

and desktop grouping:
http://userbase.kde.org/Plasma/GroupingDesktop

KDE4 has innovative features such as activities:
http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/opensource/how-to-use-kde-4-deskto...

which together make it the most advanced, flexible and useable desktop available today.

Edited 2011-05-27 03:11 UTC

Reply Score: 1

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

The only time that happen to me is if I run with desktop effects on on my stone-age laptop that as an Intel GM845 (or something) video card. If I turn off the effects, or use a card that isn't total ass, nothing crashes on log out or shutdown.

Reply Score: 3

KDE still needs work
by danbuter on Sat 28th May 2011 06:27 UTC
danbuter
Member since:
2011-03-17

I tried KDE 11.04. KDE was very pretty, and seemed like a big improvement from the last time I tried it (4.2 or so).

My big issue is that every time I clicked on anything, whether it was to open a file or the K on the bottom left, my system took a half second to a full second to respond. This continued inside every application I tried.

I don't have this issue with Gnome or E17, just KDE4. It's too bad, but it was enough for me to delete the distro. Not too mention twice in 30 minutes I had to log out because the plasmoids locked up somehow.

This is with an ATI card with the closed drivers.

Reply Score: 0