Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 8th Jun 2011 19:29 UTC
Internet & Networking I've been keeping you up to date about the situation around net neutrality in The Netherlands - and today, everything finally came to its logical conclusion. During a debate in our lower house, most of the kinks were ironed out, and our minister of economic affairs, Maxime Verhagen, will now turn net neutrality into law. This means that after Chile, The Netherlands will be the second country in the world to do so.
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Bill Shooter of Bul
Member since:
2006-07-14

It always seemed like a cool place to be, but the write up on how the process worked sounds like the politics in the Netherlands works as it should. Everyone, while adhering to their values and interests of their constituents work together to come up with a common sense bill that serves the common good.

Reply Score: 3

Favor
by fretinator on Wed 8th Jun 2011 20:57 UTC
fretinator
Member since:
2005-07-06

Can I borrow your legislators for a year or two?

Pretty please?

Tom in America

Reply Score: 5

it's the money
by Lennie on Wed 8th Jun 2011 22:15 UTC in reply to "Favor"
Lennie Member since:
2007-09-22

It isn't the legislators, it is the system where money for TV commercials and so on comes from donations.

In the Netherlands, if you find enough people to sign a petition like document you can start a political party. If you have a political party you get money for advertisements on TV. All parties get the same (or atleast simialir) amount of money/airtime for the TV commercial.

It is even clearly marked as "political party commercial"

I don't know if these people have the right ideas, but atleast they understand that money for campaigns is the base problem:

http://www.fixcongressfirst.org/

Reply Score: 3

RE: it's the money
by fretinator on Thu 9th Jun 2011 00:38 UTC in reply to "it's the money"
fretinator Member since:
2005-07-06

True, our entire political system seems to have been sold to the highest bidder in the U$A. Even our agencies and the judicial system is corrupt. I think of Monsanto and how they essentially patented life, and now farmers must pay them protection money just to grow crops. Justice seems to have flown away a long time ago.

As for funding campaigns, our supreme court gave the thumbs up to companies pouring in unlimited funds to purchase various campaigns. This is the supreme court with Justice Clarence Thomas - former counsel for... Monsanto!

But we have baseball!

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: it's the money
by ml2mst on Thu 9th Jun 2011 02:09 UTC in reply to "RE: it's the money"
ml2mst Member since:
2005-08-27

True, our entire political system seems to have been sold to the highest bidder in the U$A. Even our agencies and the judicial system is corrupt.

What makes you think the Dutch system is not corrupt? You should check out our "Public Services Desktop" fiasco. A slog which has been going on for nearly a decade.

In 2002 our lower house almost unanimously choose Open Source Software and Open Standards, which would approximately save us 1 billion Euro a year.

Now guess what: They will be purchasing Windows 7 and MS Office licenses.

... A very disappointed Dutch Free Software Advocate.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: it's the money
by Lennie on Thu 9th Jun 2011 11:46 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: it's the money"
Lennie Member since:
2007-09-22

I atleast didn't say the Dutch situation is perfect. There are many things I would like to see changed. :-(

I was just stating that what they have in the US should be changed it depends to much on bribes, euh... campaign funding.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: it's the money
by ml2mst on Thu 9th Jun 2011 02:19 UTC in reply to "RE: it's the money"
ml2mst Member since:
2005-08-27

As for funding campaigns, our supreme court gave the thumbs up to companies pouring in unlimited funds to purchase various campaigns. This is the supreme court with Justice Clarence Thomas - former counsel for... Monsanto!

Uh, oh, Monsanto, isn't that the famous company (monopolist) of genetically manipulated crop seeds, owned by the Bill and Melinda Gates "Charity"?

Reply Score: 2

I'm glad
by LB06 on Wed 8th Jun 2011 21:59 UTC
LB06
Member since:
2005-07-06

I heartily welcome this law as a Dutch citizen, but I also cannot help but wonder if this isn't a solution that just remedies some symptoms of a deeper, underlying problem: a telecommunications market that is far from perfect.

In an ideal world we shouldn't need a law that ensures net neutrality. Carriers just wouldn't be able to get away with it, because it would mean customers would simply switch to another carrier. We, however, are in a situation with only 3 carriers remaining: KPN, Vodafone and T-Mobile. In an oligopolistic situation such as this one, suppliers tend to watch and copy each other carefully. And that is exactly what is happening here.

That is why I view this as a second best after proper market competition. But it sure as hell is better than an imperfect market without this law.

On the other hand, maybe we need both: strong competition AND this law.

Edited 2011-06-08 22:07 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE: I'm glad
by Lennie on Wed 8th Jun 2011 22:11 UTC in reply to "I'm glad"
Lennie Member since:
2007-09-22

I think we should just start a project and really fix the problems with provider monopolies, mobile in the Netherlands is one thing, but look at this:

http://i.imgur.com/M3G7f.png (Canada)

There is already a lot of stupidity going on already:

http://thenextweb.com/mobile/2011/06/04/why-using-data-on-your-phon...

It really isn't needed, they should just move to pushing bits. In that case they just setup an http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_exchange_point and than it becomes a lot less expensive.

Some of the technologies already exist to be able to do some things:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femtocell

http://www.villagetelco.org/: MeshPotato, openwrt + B.A.T.M.A.N. + asterisk = wireless mesh telephony project already deployed with success in Africa on the meshpotato custom designed hardware.

Reply Score: 4

RE: I'm glad
by WorknMan on Thu 9th Jun 2011 07:19 UTC in reply to "I'm glad"
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

In an ideal world we shouldn't need a law that ensures net neutrality.


In an ideal world, we shouldn't need a law forbidding people not to steal either, but what can you do? It's not corrupt businesses that is the problem; it is corrupt individuals.

Reply Score: 2

On World IPv6 Day
by Lennie on Wed 8th Jun 2011 22:01 UTC
Lennie
Member since:
2007-09-22

This is just one big happy Internet day for me. :-)

Reply Score: 3

Netherwhat?
by Jason Bourne on Thu 9th Jun 2011 00:33 UTC
Jason Bourne
Member since:
2007-06-02

I wonder why the name of the country is written Netherlands and Holland. Why don't they stick with just ONE way.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Netherwhat?
by MOS6510 on Thu 9th Jun 2011 06:52 UTC in reply to "Netherwhat?"
MOS6510 Member since:
2011-05-12

The Dutch word for "The Netherlands" is Nederland (not plural). Holland is a name for two provinces: North-Holland and South-Holland. In these 2 provinces most stuff is located. Business, industry, people, capital, government, etc...

So if you refer to The Netherlands as Holland the people not living in either of the mentioned provinces can become annoyed.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Netherwhat?
by raboof on Thu 9th Jun 2011 07:24 UTC in reply to "RE: Netherwhat?"
raboof Member since:
2005-07-24

So if you refer to The Netherlands as Holland the people not living in either of the mentioned provinces can become annoyed.

This was probably true in Ye Olde Days, but nowadays not so much afaik - I've lived in Brabant, Gelderland and Overijssel and never minded 'Holland' much, especially in the football/soccer season ;) .

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Netherwhat?
by Thom_Holwerda on Thu 9th Jun 2011 07:30 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Netherwhat?"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

"So if you refer to The Netherlands as Holland the people not living in either of the mentioned provinces can become annoyed.

This was probably true in Ye Olde Days, but nowadays not so much afaik - I've lived in Brabant, Gelderland and Overijssel and never minded 'Holland' much, especially in the football/soccer season ;) .
"

Let me put it this way: as a Hollander with 50% Frisian blood, I don't like being called a Limburger or Brabander, even though you guys are awesome (try going out and bump into someone in both Alkmaar and Eindhoven - in ALkmaar you'll be lucky not to start a bar fight, while in Eindhoven the person you bump into will buy you a beer ;) .)

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Netherwhat?
by MOS6510 on Thu 9th Jun 2011 08:44 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Netherwhat?"
MOS6510 Member since:
2011-05-12

Steve would say: "Don't bump in to people"

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Netherwhat?
by lighans on Thu 9th Jun 2011 09:12 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Netherwhat?"
lighans Member since:
2006-01-14

Actually the last tinme I nearly had some fighting (and ran away), was in Eindhoven....

Other funny thing: Nether en Hol in the names Netherlands en Holland, both refer to te fact that the country is for a big part below sealevel.

And another funny thing: De discussion was between 7!! members of the house of parlement. That's is some nice democration....

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Netherwhat?
by Thom_Holwerda on Thu 9th Jun 2011 09:25 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Netherwhat?"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

De discussion was between 7!! members of the house of parlement. That's is some nice democration....


That's how it works 95% of the time. Only for big events (Prinsjesdag, the entire budget, first post-election debate, etc.) is the entire lower house present.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Netherwhat?
by Lennie on Thu 9th Jun 2011 12:49 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Netherwhat?"
Lennie Member since:
2007-09-22

I've seen this before. I think parties have reprecentatives on for every issue that needs to be discussed in parliment.

The rest of the party mostly trusts/relies on them to get it right.

Maybe because it is hard to know everything about every subject.

Edited 2011-06-09 12:50 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Netherwhat?
by MOS6510 on Thu 9th Jun 2011 08:43 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Netherwhat?"
MOS6510 Member since:
2011-05-12

I recall some people didn't like the show "Ik hou van Holland" because of the Nederland/Holland thing.

Personally I prefer "Nederland" as I don't like the sound of "Holland" and because the latter is incorrect when referring to the entire country.

Also I guess "The Netherlands" is plural because it is derived from our official country name "Kingdom of The Netherlands" (Koninkrijk der Nederlanden). Which I guess includes those overseas islands and in the old days included Belgium and Luxembourg.

I'm still in favor of declaring war on those two countries and reclaim them.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Netherwhat?
by Thom_Holwerda on Thu 9th Jun 2011 08:47 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Netherwhat?"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

I'm still in favor of declaring war on those two countries and reclaim them.


No. I want them crawling back to us, tired, empty, desiring our help more than anything.

Much more fulfilling.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Netherwhat?
by MOS6510 on Thu 9th Jun 2011 09:21 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Netherwhat?"
MOS6510 Member since:
2011-05-12

Belgium is about to, but I doubt Luxembourg would do this in my life time.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Netherwhat?
by madcrow on Thu 9th Jun 2011 13:43 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Netherwhat?"
madcrow Member since:
2006-03-13

Belgium is weird. It's like somebody took a map, lopped off a bit of France and a bit of the Netherlands, shoved them together and called it a country...

Reply Score: 3

RE: Netherwhat?
by Thom_Holwerda on Thu 9th Jun 2011 07:24 UTC in reply to "Netherwhat?"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

We Dutch DO stick to one name - Nederland, or The Netherlands in English. We NEVER refer to our own country as Holland, since that would be incorrect; it'd be like referring to the US as Dakota. Only foreigners use the term 'Holland', even though Holland doesn't exist - there's North and South Holland, two provinces. People from the rest of the country don't appreciate being called 'Holland'.

Our language actually isn't called 'Dutch' either, another failure from the English language. Our language is actually called Netherlandic, but outside of linguistic circles, you won't hear that term. 'Dutch' refers to the ancient language 'Diets', which is the common ancestor to both German and Netherlandic. Confusingly, in Netherlandic, 'Duits' ('Dutch') is the language of the Germans (we call Germany 'Duitsland').

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Netherwhat?
by RaisonDetre on Thu 9th Jun 2011 09:59 UTC in reply to "RE: Netherwhat?"
RaisonDetre Member since:
2011-06-09

Growing up, that has always been a great source of confusion, because as you say Germany is called Duitsland, so the term 'Dutch' never really made much sense to me. Now at least I know where it comes from.

I'm a bit embarrassed to say the thought never even occurred to me that the Dutch also found this English word perplexing.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Netherwhat?
by drahca on Thu 9th Jun 2011 12:59 UTC in reply to "RE: Netherwhat?"
drahca Member since:
2006-02-23

Only foreigners use the term 'Holland'


Ehm, no Thom. When the Dutch play football we wear t-shirt with Holland written on it and we shout "Holland! Holland!". We sing the song "Hup, Holland, Hup" etc so you are completely wrong here, we call The Netherlands Holland just like foreign people do.

Our language actually isn't called 'Dutch' either, another failure from the English language.


Diets or Duyts actually is what we ourselves used to describe our own language in the middle ages when the nobility was speaking Latin and even in the 17th century when we were at our peak colony wise. It does not refer to some common language of which both Dutch and German have descended but simply means "of the people" or peoples' language". It is no surprise that the English refer to us as Dutch still.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Netherwhat?
by Thom_Holwerda on Thu 9th Jun 2011 13:04 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Netherwhat?"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Ehm, no Thom. When the Dutch play football we wear t-shirt with Holland written on it and we shout "Holland! Holland!". We sing the song "Hup, Holland, Hup" etc so you are completely wrong here, we call The Netherlands Holland just like foreign people do.


I was speaking about official language and in day-to-day use. There are specific situation where we use Holland (in certain songs), but even during sports, we usually refer to "Nederland", and far more commonly "Oranje". I have NEVER heard e.g. a soccer commentator say "Holland tegen Duitsland" or something.

It does not refer to some common language of which both Dutch and German have descended but simply means "of the people" or peoples' language".


Our common ancestor language was called 'Diets', which indeed comes from 'of the people' - this term may have well been used in The Netherlands until way after the separation between Netherlandic and German, but that does not suddenly change the fact that the term Dutch comes from our common ancestor language.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Netherwhat?
by drahca on Thu 9th Jun 2011 14:13 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Netherwhat?"
drahca Member since:
2006-02-23

Ok, totally off-topic but ...

Our common ancestor language was called 'Diets'


Yes, if you mean "the Dutch" with "our", but you asserted that both Dutch and German originated from a language called Diets which is not true. Diets is not even an official language but a term used to describe a group of languages in The Netherlands and later (mis)used to describe the standard Dutch language before it was called Netherlandic and has never been used to denote a language from which the German language descended. Dutch and German are in different branches of the West Germanic language tree since well before even old Dutch.

... this term may have well been used in The Netherlands until way after the separation between Netherlandic and German, but that does not suddenly change the fact that the term Dutch comes from our common ancestor language.


Yes, Dutch comes from Diets and Duyts(ch) but as I mentioned Diets is not a common ancestor language or even a language at all but I digress.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Netherwhat?
by Thom_Holwerda on Thu 9th Jun 2011 14:20 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Netherwhat?"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Diets is not even an official language but a term used to describe a group of languages in The Netherlands and later (mis)used to describe the standard Dutch language before it was called Netherlandic and has never been used to denote a language from which the German language descended.


I know it does not denote a specific language per se; I used it as a quick way to describe where the word 'Dutch' comes from. I wasn't planning on elaborating the entire complicated history of the West-Germanic languages and dialects in an OSNews comment ^^.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Netherwhat?
by Tuishimi on Thu 9th Jun 2011 14:57 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Netherwhat?"
Tuishimi Member since:
2005-07-06

I love Indo-European language talk!! My favorite all-time book: In Search of the Indo-Europeans. AWESOME book - written for lay people such as myself who did not study archeology and linquistics.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Netherwhat?
by marblesbot on Fri 10th Jun 2011 02:38 UTC in reply to "RE: Netherwhat?"
marblesbot Member since:
2009-12-25

So I should call it a Netherlandic Oven?

Reply Score: 1

Comment by Luminair
by Luminair on Thu 9th Jun 2011 02:09 UTC
Luminair
Member since:
2007-03-30

"While ISPs and carriers will be prohibited from using DPI to spy on their customers, they may still use it to manage their networks."

well that isn't very well net neutrality, is it?

"the net is neutral except for all the shit we want to filter out."

OOPS

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by Luminair
by avgalen on Thu 9th Jun 2011 02:47 UTC in reply to "Comment by Luminair"
avgalen Member since:
2010-09-23

Deep Packet INSPECTION
How is inspection related to actively filtering?

Reply Score: 1

Very good....
by pabloski on Thu 9th Jun 2011 10:51 UTC
pabloski
Member since:
2009-09-28

...so now I should choose between Netherlands or Chile....suggestions? ;)

oh I live in the mytical country dominated by the infamous media mogul Silvio Berlusconi!

I think I will migrate to Netherlands ;) ;)

Reply Score: 1

Holland
by Jason Bourne on Thu 9th Jun 2011 20:31 UTC
Jason Bourne
Member since:
2007-06-02

OK, I get it. The right is Netherlands. Isn't Netherlands the same as "Low Lands?" What is the reason for the use of the word Nether instead of more obvious and common ones to refer as "low"?

I'm sorry about this, it is because I see too many "Made in Holland" in so many CDs and LPs. Someone is getting wrong then...

Reply Score: 2

RE: Holland
by Thom_Holwerda on Thu 9th Jun 2011 20:37 UTC in reply to "Holland"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

What is the reason for the use of the word Nether instead of more obvious and common ones to refer as "low"?


Language changes.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Holland
by Onnozelschaap on Sat 11th Jun 2011 14:57 UTC in reply to "Holland"
Onnozelschaap Member since:
2011-06-10

That's why we have a music-festival called Lowlands...

Reply Score: 1