Linked by Andrew Hudson on Mon 20th Jun 2011 17:19 UTC
BeOS & Derivatives Haiku Alpha 3 has been in development for more than 14 months. In that time more than 800 bugs have been identified and fixed, major sections have been updated, applications have been added and updated, and great progress has been made in supporting additional hardware. Here is a summary of updates, more details can be found here. Also inside, interviews with some core Haiku developers.
Order by: Score:
Looks good
by ventejuy on Mon 20th Jun 2011 10:15 UTC
ventejuy
Member since:
2009-12-29

Haiku OS has improved greatly from last time I check it. At least no stability problems right now (I am using it with WebPositive) and much more responsive. I think it is going in the right direction.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Looks good
by drcouzelis on Mon 20th Jun 2011 20:35 UTC in reply to "Looks good"
drcouzelis Member since:
2010-01-11

...and much more responsive.


I can't imagine Haiku being even MORE responsive than it already is! I'm curious, are you using Haiku in a VM?

Reply Score: 1

Great news
by pandronic on Mon 20th Jun 2011 10:51 UTC
pandronic
Member since:
2006-05-18

I can't wait to test it. Haiku seems the only alternative OS with a shot of becoming usable as a desktop OS. Seeing new releases and progress being made makes me really happy. Congrats and keep up the good work guys.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Great news
by Neolander on Mon 20th Jun 2011 11:03 UTC in reply to "Great news"
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

Just to know, what do you categorize as an alternative OS ? Do you consider desktop Linux or PC-BSD as alternative OSs ?

Edited 2011-06-20 11:04 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Great news
by pandronic on Mon 20th Jun 2011 21:52 UTC in reply to "RE: Great news"
pandronic Member since:
2006-05-18

Nope ... I'm not including here Linux and other Unixy OSes.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Great news
by tanishaj on Tue 21st Jun 2011 23:32 UTC in reply to "RE: Great news"
tanishaj Member since:
2010-12-22

Just to know, what do you categorize as an alternative OS ? Do you consider desktop Linux or PC-BSD as alternative OSs ?


I am not sure what he meant but I believe that Haiku has a better long-term shot at going mainstream on the desktop than Linux does. Certainly better than PC-BSD.

It is certainly early days though and only time will tell.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Great news
by specialspambot on Wed 22nd Jun 2011 00:17 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Great news"
specialspambot Member since:
2011-01-28

"Just to know, what do you categorize as an alternative OS ? Do you consider desktop Linux or PC-BSD as alternative OSs ?


I am not sure what he meant but I believe that Haiku has a better long-term shot at going mainstream on the desktop than Linux does. Certainly better than PC-BSD.

It is certainly early days though and only time will tell.
"


A sentiment I share, Linux consumer PC desktop computing, its a bad joke.

Reply Score: 0

Looking Forward to Haiku
by tuaris on Mon 20th Jun 2011 11:19 UTC
tuaris
Member since:
2007-08-05

Really looking forward to seeing Haiku ready for production. I have followed this project since the very first minute of it's existence.

I spent a few hours the other day browsing the source code and I was really impressed with it's design. It's kernel is of a hybrid design that is up to par with (if not better than) modern OS's like Windows NT and OS X. Fully integrated GUI, and pretty much designed from the ground up to kick ass. The same cannot be said of GNU Linux, which is nothing more than a hack job built on top of an outdated monolithic kernel design.

I know it's still several years away, but when the multi-user and server versions of Haiku are ready, I'll switch all my Linux/BSD stuff to it in a heartbeat.

Edited 2011-06-20 11:20 UTC

Reply Score: 6

RE: Looking Forward to Haiku
by vodoomoth on Mon 20th Jun 2011 12:06 UTC in reply to "Looking Forward to Haiku"
vodoomoth Member since:
2010-03-30

You might be right but you've been downvoted (not by me). I'd hazard that the reason is the little thing you wrote about untouchable-pure-gold Linux being a hack.

The problem I see with Haiku is that it's only "alpha 3"... and after that maybe a beta phase, before maybe a train of RCs. And that's before the actual release of a first version.

I'm concerned about how relevant Haiku will still be by that time and how many people would have any incentive or reason to actually use it as their main OS.

But this alpha 3 is still good news, maybe that it'll finally install on one of my systems.

OT: can a native speaker tell me what this means, the sentence construct feels weird: "It should be noted that over 800 bugs closed as fixed since R1 Alpha 2." Thanks.

Edited 2011-06-20 12:22 UTC

Reply Score: 3

v RE[2]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by tuaris on Mon 20th Jun 2011 12:15 UTC in reply to "RE: Looking Forward to Haiku"
RE[2]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by atriq on Mon 20th Jun 2011 17:42 UTC in reply to "RE: Looking Forward to Haiku"
atriq Member since:
2007-10-18

OT: can a native speaker tell me what this means, the sentence construct feels weird: "It should be noted that over 800 bugs closed as fixed since R1 Alpha 2." Thanks.
All it means is that approximately 800 call tickets were acknowleged as actual bugs and were corrected. This implies that the figure stripped out all of the call tickets that had resolutions like "won't fix", "cannot reproduce", or "duplicate".

Edited 2011-06-20 17:42 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by Fergy on Mon 20th Jun 2011 19:02 UTC in reply to "RE: Looking Forward to Haiku"
Fergy Member since:
2006-04-10

OT: can a native speaker tell me what this means, the sentence construct feels weird: "It should be noted that over 800 bugs closed as fixed since R1 Alpha 2." Thanks.

When a bug is closed in a bugtracker it doesn't always mean it is fixed. 800 bugs are closed _and_ fixed.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by vodoomoth on Mon 20th Jun 2011 19:20 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Looking Forward to Haiku"
vodoomoth Member since:
2010-03-30

Thanks (@atriq too). It feels ironic, being a software engineer, to have bugtrackers explained to me :-)

The thing that seemed odd to me is the active voice on "close" with "bugs" as the subject. Instead of "bugs closed as fixed" I would have expected "bugs are closed as fixed". But after a couple of rereadings, it made sense.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by umccullough on Mon 20th Jun 2011 20:05 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Looking Forward to Haiku"
umccullough Member since:
2006-01-26

Instead of "bugs closed as fixed" I would have expected "bugs are closed as fixed".


No, you're correct. That would have been better english ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by cmchittom on Tue 21st Jun 2011 00:41 UTC in reply to "RE: Looking Forward to Haiku"
cmchittom Member since:
2011-03-18

OT: can a native speaker tell me what this means, the sentence construct feels weird: "It should be noted that over 800 bugs closed as fixed since R1 Alpha 2." Thanks.


Bugs can be closed for several reasons, and bug-tracking systems usually give you a way to state the reason a bug was closed. "Fixed" might be one. "Won't fix," "Unreproduceable," and "It's a feature, not a bug" might be others.

Apparently, at least 801 bugs were closed by being marked "Fixed." Obviously it would have been much clearer if they had just said "over 800 bugs were fixed," and left it at that This not so much a native-speaker issue, I think, as a Programmers-aren't-always-the-best-communicators issue.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by tylerdurden on Tue 21st Jun 2011 02:21 UTC in reply to "RE: Looking Forward to Haiku"
tylerdurden Member since:
2009-03-17

[q I'd hazard that the reason is the little thing you wrote about untouchable-pure-gold Linux being a hack. [/q]

That's a risky bet, there was so much silliness in the previous post to focus on just one line as being the culprit.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by cb88 on Wed 22nd Jun 2011 03:32 UTC in reply to "RE: Looking Forward to Haiku"
cb88 Member since:
2009-04-23

It means that 800 bugs have literally been fixed not just closed as duplicates or as invalid and such.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Looking Forward to Haiku
by Laurence on Mon 20th Jun 2011 12:44 UTC in reply to "Looking Forward to Haiku"
Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26

Really looking forward to seeing Haiku ready for production. I have followed this project since the very first minute of it's existence.

I spent a few hours the other day browsing the source code and I was really impressed with it's design. It's kernel is of a hybrid design that is up to par with (if not better than) modern OS's like Windows NT and OS X. Fully integrated GUI, and pretty much designed from the ground up to kick ass. The same cannot be said of GNU Linux, which is nothing more than a hack job built on top of an outdated monolithic kernel design.

I know it's still several years away, but when the multi-user and server versions of Haiku are ready, I'll switch all my Linux/BSD stuff to it in a heartbeat.

By that definition, all modern kernels are hack jobs:
* NT is constantly undergoing source chopping of outdated / redundant features (aka the MinWin project) * XNU (OS X's kernel) runs heavily hacked versions of Mach and BSD.
* SVR4 (of which Solaris has evolved from) was built from a need to unify the different UNIXs - so has code hacked from all over the shop.

It's impossible to maintain a working kernel without having to hack bits from time to time - and this is more so the case in open source where projects will share schedulers (et al) from one and another.

In fact, I'd be more worried if a modern kernel hadn't seen it's fair share of hacking.

Reply Score: 12

RE[2]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by Not2Sure on Mon 20th Jun 2011 20:43 UTC in reply to "RE: Looking Forward to Haiku"
Not2Sure Member since:
2009-12-07

Lol, what seriously is a "modern" kernel. What's next a postmodern kernel?

Software engineers really have no idea how haphazard their work really is.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by Laurence on Mon 20th Jun 2011 21:18 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Looking Forward to Haiku"
Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26

Lol, what seriously is a "modern" kernel. What's next a postmodern kernel?

Is that a serious question? <_<

Software engineers really have no idea how haphazard their work really is.

Users really have no idea how immensely complicated kernel development really is. ;)

Reply Score: 7

RE[4]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by Not2Sure on Tue 21st Jun 2011 06:36 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Looking Forward to Haiku"
Not2Sure Member since:
2009-12-07

"Lol, what seriously is a "modern" kernel. What's next a postmodern kernel?

Is that a serious question?
"

Yes, that's a serious question. WTF is a "modern" kernel, and WTF is a "premodern" kernel when the few decades-long history of "modern" computer science reveals a recycling of old ideas "rehashed" as innovative.

Modern, lol. Also spare me the User ad hominem. Been doing this alot longer than you, trust me. That is the whole point of microkernel (no wait, nanokernel!, no wait picokernel!) design.. simplicity and correctness at the cost of performance (to an arguable extent).

Finally, I think you overestimate kernel development effort, probably because you are doing some hobby work in that area yourself? Compare the effort involved in the Linux kernel by any "engineering" metric (man-hours, SLOC) and it pales in comparison to projects in userspace. The hard "work" in operating system delivery is HAL/drivers. Plain and simple. Some people wanna call that kernel development, but we know better.

Take a step back from what you are doing before throwing around black-box terms like "complexity" unless you are prepared to discuss what that actually means because generally speaking the cyclomatic complexity of kernel code is (and should) be signficantly lower. But there aren't even real metrics to talk compare 2 bodies of code now are there? That is how haphazard software engineering is.

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by Laurence on Tue 21st Jun 2011 09:12 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Looking Forward to Haiku"
Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26


Yes, that's a serious question. WTF is a "modern" kernel,

Anything current, clearly.


and WTF is a "premodern" kernel

It's something you made up.


when the few decades-long history of "modern" computer science reveals a recycling of old ideas "rehashed" as innovative.

Riiiight....


Also spare me the User ad hominem. Been doing this alot longer than you, trust me.

Well given that I know nothing about you and you know nothing about me, I think I'll pass on that comment ;)

That is the whole point of microkernel (no wait, nanokernel!, no wait picokernel!) design.. simplicity and correctness at the cost of performance (to an arguable extent).

Well, not exactly.
It's about modulising core components and then porting them outside of kernel space - the goal often being to eliminate kernel panics.

There's nothing more or less correct about a micro-kernel design. It's just a different way of tackling the same problem.


Finally, I think you overestimate kernel development effort, probably because you are doing some hobby work in that area yourself?

You like to make a lot of assumptions

Compare the effort involved in the Linux kernel by any "engineering" metric (man-hours, SLOC) and it pales in comparison to projects in userspace. The hard "work" in operating system delivery is HAL/drivers. Plain and simple.

Maybe for micro-kernels, but most OSs these days use hybrid kernels so that means that things like filesystem drivers do reside in the kernel.

Some people wanna call that kernel development, but we know better.

As above, that really depends on the kernel.

Take a step back from what you are doing before throwing around black-box terms like "complexity" unless you are prepared to discuss what that actually means because generally speaking the cyclomatic complexity of kernel code is (and should) be signficantly lower.

I'm not aware of what a "black-box term" means specifically, but given the context you used it in, I'd beg to differ.

I do think you're dismissing how complicated maintaining a -modern- current kernel that has been in production use for 10/20 years and is still evolving.

Particularly when most kernels in production use are not tidy little micro-kernels like you seem to favor

But there aren't even real metrics to talk compare 2 bodies of code now are there? That is how haphazard software engineering is.

What attracted me to programming is while there are better methods in terms of readability, scaleability and effeciency; there is not always a "right" way of coding a solution - much like solving maths equations.

So you might call it 'haphazard', but I call it 'inspiring' and consider it a charm.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by Not2Sure on Tue 21st Jun 2011 21:03 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Looking Forward to Haiku"
Not2Sure Member since:
2009-12-07

"
Yes, that's a serious question. WTF is a "modern" kernel,

Anything current, clearly.
"

What a stunninly useless term then. Thanks for the clarification. I would simply use the term "current" from now on as it is more clear. Most people use "modern" as a descriptive term and it has connotations with respect to design and form. See ("modern aesthetics", "modern science").

and WTF is a "premodern" kernel
It's something you made up.


Lol, so, how do we refer to anything before modern (whatever that is because current seems to change every couple of years? Also, what does current mean "currently on the market" or "currently developed" or ..?

That is the whole point of microkernel (no wait, nanokernel!, no wait picokernel!) design.. simplicity and correctness at the cost of performance (to an arguable extent).

Well, not exactly.
It's about modulising core components and then porting them outside of kernel space - the goal often being to eliminate kernel panics.


Um, that's exactly the same thing. I can see how you don't want to equate those terms I suppose.

There's nothing more or less correct about a micro-kernel design. It's just a different way of tackling the same problem.


I don't think I can continue responding to you further as you clearly haven't put much thought into what you are writing or don't share the terminology most people use to discuss these topics. You might want to read into the benefits of a trusted code base and a provable kernel for operating system security. Thanks for the comment.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by Laurence on Wed 22nd Jun 2011 08:56 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Looking Forward to Haiku"
Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26


What a stunninly useless term then.

Ahh so you don't have a point to make other than to argue semantics?

You might as well mention Hitler now and finish the thread completely :p

I don't think I can continue responding to you further as you clearly haven't put much thought into what you are writing or don't share the terminology most people use to discuss these topics.

Is that why I've corrected you on a number of points and the only comeback you've had thus far is the usage of the term "modern" over "current"?

You might want to read into the benefits of a trusted code base and a provable kernel for operating system security.

I already understand those points thank you very much. Perhaps you want to get off your high horse and admit when you someone calls you on your other the top "knee-jerk" comments.

Nobody was disputing that micro-kernels have their benefits (there's pro's and con's for all sides of the argument), however the comments you made were biased beyond reason.

Edited 2011-06-22 09:05 UTC

Reply Score: 2

specialspambot Member since:
2011-01-28

Lol, what seriously is a "modern" kernel. What's next a postmodern kernel?

Software engineers really have no idea how haphazard their work really is.



wait for the nielistic kenrel

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by Edgarama on Tue 21st Jun 2011 10:13 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Looking Forward to Haiku"
Edgarama Member since:
2008-04-04

So nihilistic in fact that the developers go the extra mile to mispell both nihilistic and kernel.

Edited 2011-06-21 10:14 UTC

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by Neolander on Tue 21st Jun 2011 05:20 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Looking Forward to Haiku"
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

A modern kernel obviously uses some form of distributed microkernel design with Internet and social networking integration.

You see, each time such a computer connects to the internet, it becomes automatically parts of the "hive mind". When someone starts a power-intensive calculation on such a modern OS, like a Blender render, that calculation is distributed across all available nodes, resulting in render times that are pretty close to the latency of the slowest connexion for still HD images.

And because this modern OS is based on a microkernel with AES-encrypted message passing as the main IPC method, security breaches never occur.

(Note : This was a joke, based on my vision of current academia OS design fantasies. You are asked not to take it seriously. Please. Pretty please.)

Edited 2011-06-21 05:41 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE: Looking Forward to Haiku
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Mon 20th Jun 2011 18:17 UTC in reply to "Looking Forward to Haiku"
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

In my book, Hacks are good. Grand Designs are bad. Real Artists Ship. IMHO, there is a good reason why Linux and not Hurd or Minux took off like a rocket.

Haiku gets a break as it was an existing design with a real working example to compare it with.

Reply Score: 6

demetrioussharpe Member since:
2009-01-09

In my book, Hacks are good. Grand Designs are bad. Real Artists Ship. IMHO, there is a good reason why Linux and not Hurd or Minux took off like a rocket.

Haiku gets a break as it was an existing design with a real working example to compare it with.


You're spot on about everything except Minix. Minix didn't take off because Dr. Tanenbaum wouldn't let it take off. The first versions of Minix were purely for teaching purposes. Linux was created mainly because Linux had improvements to submit, but they were improvements that were out of scope with Minix's purpose. So, he created his own kernel based on what he considered good & bad in Minix (monolithic vs. ukernel, etc.). So, please don't throw Minix into that category.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Looking Forward to Haiku
by JAlexoid on Mon 20th Jun 2011 22:51 UTC in reply to "Looking Forward to Haiku"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

outdated monolithic kernel design

It was labelled as "outdated" 20 years ago by Tanenbaum and for some reason is dominating all other Unixes.
If you wish to revisit the discussion, I think the archive is still there from 1991.

PS: If you don't like monolithic so much, why don't you switch to Darwin?

Reply Score: 2

v RE[2]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by specialspambot on Tue 21st Jun 2011 00:55 UTC in reply to "RE: Looking Forward to Haiku"
RE[3]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by senshikaze on Tue 21st Jun 2011 01:58 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Looking Forward to Haiku"
senshikaze Member since:
2011-03-08

minix isn't a hybrid. it is a true micro-kernel. Technically, none of the above are true micro-kernel OS's. (I think the OS-periment by Hadrien Grasland is attempting to be a true micro-kernel design. At least that is the way I read it).
I don't think Be or Haiku is micro, either, but a hybrid (which is just that, a hybrid. It has micro-kernel features and monolithic features.)

Also, what about Linux's dominance in the server and HPC markets? Those don't count right?

Edited 2011-06-21 01:59 UTC

Reply Score: 4

specialspambot Member since:
2011-01-28

minix isn't a hybrid. it is a true micro-kernel. Technically, none of the above are true micro-kernel OS's. (I think the OS-periment by Hadrien Grasland is attempting to be a true micro-kernel design. At least that is the way I read it).
I don't think Be or Haiku is micro, either, but a hybrid (which is just that, a hybrid. It has micro-kernel features and monolithic features.)

Also, what about Linux's dominance in the server and HPC markets? Those don't count right?



If you think that accounts for the bulk of computing devices, please continue. It also negates the fact that often linux and windows server are often running on the same hardware, often one virtualized. The market split is more like 50% and has been and will continue to be so for a long time.

Last year the PC market was around 300million machines IIRC. who sold 300 million servers last year ?

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by Neolander on Tue 21st Jun 2011 05:38 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Looking Forward to Haiku"
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

minix isn't a hybrid. it is a true micro-kernel. Technically, none of the above are true micro-kernel OS's. (I think the OS-periment by Hadrien Grasland is attempting to be a true micro-kernel design. At least that is the way I read it).

Yup ;) I'd never have thought that my pet project would be used one day in an argument about micro vs monolithic kernels...

In the micro family, one can add QNX, Mach, L4, and I think that Symbian too has a microkernel structure but check my words on that. Tanenbaum also mentions some microkernels used in critical environments on his website.

I don't think Be or Haiku is micro, either, but a hybrid (which is just that, a hybrid. It has micro-kernel features and monolithic features.)

I always have a hard time defining hybrids myself ;) Most known hybrids sound to me like extremely modular monolithic designs : a huge lot of functionality is still in kernel mode, sharing a common address space, but in separate and easily replaceable code modules.

Edited 2011-06-21 05:44 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by Not2Sure on Tue 21st Jun 2011 06:44 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Looking Forward to Haiku"
Not2Sure Member since:
2009-12-07

Symbian EKA1/EKA2 are (were qq!) different beasts altogether.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by Neolander on Tue 21st Jun 2011 06:47 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Looking Forward to Haiku"
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

Symbian EKA1/EKA2 are (were qq!) different beasts altogether.

Do you know of some more extended online doc on the subject, so that I can improve my knowledge ?

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by Not2Sure on Tue 21st Jun 2011 06:54 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Looking Forward to Haiku"
Not2Sure Member since:
2009-12-07

The source code for EKA2 was placed under the EPL by the Symbian foundation and a reader might have a code drop. However when Nokia officially took over it pulled it from the web and repeated requests to make it available have not met with any response.

Aggravating to say the least.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by bogomipz on Tue 21st Jun 2011 20:02 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Looking Forward to Haiku"
bogomipz Member since:
2005-07-11

Would this article be of interest?:

http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=1578523

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by senshikaze on Tue 21st Jun 2011 11:49 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Looking Forward to Haiku"
senshikaze Member since:
2011-03-08

I always have a hard time defining hybrids myself ;) Most known hybrids sound to me like extremely modular monolithic designs : a huge lot of functionality is still in kernel mode, sharing a common address space, but in separate and easily replaceable code modules.

IANAKH(I am not a kernel hacker), but that is the way I read hybrid kernels, too. If you make that argument, then wouldn't the LKM in linux kinda be (almost) a hybrid design? It is runtime loadable drivers and subsystems. Not quite a micro kernel, but not quite a monolithic either. just right. ;)

*edit: stupid me, forgot that a microkernel design requires the pieces to be outside of kernel space. I should really pay attention when reading "OPerating Systems, Design and implementations."

Edited 2011-06-21 11:53 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by Neolander on Tue 21st Jun 2011 13:16 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Looking Forward to Haiku"
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

Yup. I have a hard time distinguishing "modular kernel" and "hybrid kernel", but if both means the same, on which we seem to agree, then I have to say that Linux definitely qualifies as a modular kernel.

Edited 2011-06-21 13:19 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by Neolander on Tue 21st Jun 2011 13:42 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Looking Forward to Haiku"
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

For instant fun...

http://wiki.osdev.org/Monolithic_Kernel
http://wiki.osdev.org/Hybrid_Kernel

Notice that Linux is in both categories, but that NT and XNU somehow escape the monolithic kernel definition.

Pictures pretty well how much blurred the lines are.

Myself, I tend to base myself on the following categorization :

Monolithic (non-modular) : Old designs. The kernel includes lots of features in an inflexible way.

Modular : Most modern desktop kernels. Still lots of stuff in the kernel space, which gives some credit to people who also classify them as monolithic, but code modules are sufficiently independent from each other that you can selectively add and remove them at run time.

Microkernels : There is an explicit intent to put every functionality which does not need full system access (as an example, the VFS) outside of the kernel.

Picokernels, nanokernels : Microkernels which want to show off.

Hybrid kernels : Modular kernels which want to show off.

Edited 2011-06-21 13:44 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by Not2Sure on Tue 21st Jun 2011 06:51 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Looking Forward to Haiku"
Not2Sure Member since:
2009-12-07

I haven't followed Haiku over the past couple years due to lack of mindspace, but when the project started (openbeos.org!), Haiku was using the work of a former BeOS engineer: a fairly straightfoward fork of the NewOS kernel -- http://newos.org/features.php

How much that of that code/architecture has been retained someone else probably is better equipped to answer.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by tylerdurden on Tue 21st Jun 2011 02:34 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Looking Forward to Haiku"
tylerdurden Member since:
2009-03-17


Wow its dominating 5% of the market space for pc's. so, its dominating other OS software and only becuase it was the only opensource nix clone kernel for many years.


There are other market spaces other than the desktop, things like server, embedded and mobile. Also there are/were plenty of other opensourced unix clones for many of those years, the BSDs predate Linux by a fair bit for example.


So lets review, windows, hybrid microkernel, mac, hybrid,linux monolithic, given marketshare. the hybrids have it.

the professor appears to be correct.


That is not much of a review, but rather a fairly selective enumeration without any sort of figures. Why don't you review the market share from a mobile or embedded standpoint What about the server or cloud infrastructure space, for example.

Oh, and the professor was not advocating "hybrids" BTW, but actual microkernels. The only commercial example of which I can think right now is QNX. Wanna compare the market share numbers of QNX vs. Linux to see who was right? Not that it matters since you were building an argument to popularity (and a silly one at that), which is a fallacy anyway.

Edited 2011-06-21 02:38 UTC

Reply Score: 4

specialspambot Member since:
2011-01-28

"
Wow its dominating 5% of the market space for pc's. so, its dominating other OS software and only becuase it was the only opensource nix clone kernel for many years.


There are other market spaces other than the desktop, things like server, embedded and mobile. Also there are/were plenty of other opensourced unix clones for many of those years, the BSDs predate Linux by a fair bit for example.


So lets review, windows, hybrid microkernel, mac, hybrid,linux monolithic, given marketshare. the hybrids have it.

the professor appears to be correct.


That is not much of a review, but rather a fairly selective enumeration without any sort of figures. Why don't you review the market share from a mobile or embedded standpoint What about the server or cloud infrastructure space, for example.

Oh, and the professor was not advocating "hybrids" BTW, but actual microkernels.
"


some of us can read, I know its hard to fathom, he said that the hybrid have won, back in 1992. So was he correct. Yes he was.

last year the pc market sold around 300million machines. How many linux server are in the whole world ? Not that many.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by JAlexoid on Tue 21st Jun 2011 11:49 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Looking Forward to Haiku"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

So... All other devices running a monolithic kernel don't count? That 300'000'000 PCs pails in face of everything else that has a kernel on it.

Tanenbaum's statement is wrong today simply because it fails to acknowledge the spread of computing power today.

Reply Score: 2

specialspambot Member since:
2011-01-28

So... All other devices running a monolithic kernel don't count? That 300'000'000 PCs pails in face of everything else that has a kernel on it.

Tanenbaum's statement is wrong today simply because it fails to acknowledge the spread of computing power today.



Tanebaum was correct, linux developers continue to be wrong. Get over it already. Secondly, we are talking about a desktop operating system, not a phone OS or a server OS or a toaster OS.

Linux and every other get their clock cleaned in Realtime delivered kernel.

Who fing care, Personally I always find posting things about Haiku here pointless becuase you get 100's of reply about drivel about linux.

STFU already we get, you think your kernel is special, go be special with it.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by tylerdurden on Tue 21st Jun 2011 22:48 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Looking Forward to Haiku"
tylerdurden Member since:
2009-03-17


STFU already we get, you think your kernel is special, go be special with it.


Well, technically you are the one who refuses to STFU about how "special" those hybrid kernels (whatever that means) are?

For a person whose handle name is "spambot" you doth projecting waaaaay too much. LOL

Edited 2011-06-21 22:48 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by tylerdurden on Tue 21st Jun 2011 22:45 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Looking Forward to Haiku"
tylerdurden Member since:
2009-03-17



some of us can read, I know its hard to fathom, he said that the hybrid have won, back in 1992. So was he correct. Yes he was.



Your reading and comprehension skills seem to be rather lacking. You still have not defined what "winning" means in your very particular context.


last year the pc market sold around 300million machines. How many linux server are in the whole world ? Not that many.


Do you realize that in that figure you are listing, over half of those units come from Commercial applications. Which include enterprise and server duties?

Android devices have been sold upwards of 20 million units per quarter, for example, so there is a significant volume of linux devices out there. Wether or not you can fathom that, however...

Edited 2011-06-21 22:45 UTC

Reply Score: 2

specialspambot Member since:
2011-01-28

" some of us can read, I know its hard to fathom, he said that the hybrid have won, back in 1992. So was he correct. Yes he was.
Your reading and comprehension skills seem to be rather lacking. You still have not defined what "winning" means in your very particular context.
last year the pc market sold around 300million machines. How many linux server are in the whole world ? Not that many.
Do you realize that in that figure you are listing, over half of those units come from Commercial applications. Which include enterprise and server duties? Android devices have been sold upwards of 20 million units per quarter, for example, so there is a significant volume of linux devices out there. Wether or not you can fathom that, however...
"


Wow 20 million per quarter, unreal. How many PC total last year ?

Wait, I think winning is defined by marketshare, and linux isn't "Winning" there either.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by tylerdurden on Wed 22nd Jun 2011 01:37 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Looking Forward to Haiku"
tylerdurden Member since:
2009-03-17

thanks for proving my point regarding you poor lack of reading and comprehension skills.

The point was that Linux was far from having a minuscule market share. Esp. if compared to real microkernel OSes, like QNX.

BTW, Tanenbaum argument was regarding microkernels, not hybrid systems like OSX or modern NT kernels. Because that is what Minix, his creation, is: a microkernel. He may have been technically correct, in fact I agree with him in some of his points/views.

However, given the minuscule market share of minix vs. linux, I would have expected you to know better than to use a fallacy like an argument to popularity. You should provide actual technical reasons as to why Tanenbaun "won" according to you.

But that clearly won't happen, as it is clear you're just a kid with waay too much time during the summer and obviously learning is not one of your priorities. So have fun trolling instead.

Edited 2011-06-22 01:39 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by Neolander on Tue 21st Jun 2011 05:32 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Looking Forward to Haiku"
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

So lets review, windows, hybrid microkernel, mac, hybrid,linux monolithic, given marketshare. the hybrids have it.

the professor appears to be correct.

*cough cough cough*

Most Windows drivers still reside in kernel mode, to the best of my knowledge. The file system driver is also there, in the I/O subsystem. I believe GDI also resides in the NT kernel...

In short, NT is probably highly modular, which to the best of my knowledge is the core point of the "hybrid" appellation (lots of system services residing in independent low-level modules, but a mad pointer or a buffer overflow is still all it takes to take over the world), but calling it a microkernel is maybe a bit of a stretch.

Same for XNU, which started as a microkernel (Mach, IIRC), but has been shoehorned a lot of BSD kernel code in it to the point where it's now closer to a monolithic kernel in terms of kernel-mode functionality.

Edited 2011-06-21 05:43 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by Neolander on Tue 21st Jun 2011 06:06 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Looking Forward to Haiku"
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

That being said, Microsoft are aware of this design deficiency of NT, and try to slowly improve things. As an example, newer Windows GPU drivers (WDDM) partly reside in user mode and can crash without crashing the whole kernel (in some circumstances), which is good news already.

Edited 2011-06-21 06:07 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by ricegf on Tue 21st Jun 2011 10:12 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Looking Forward to Haiku"
ricegf Member since:
2007-04-25

Why PCs?

If you wish to use commercial success as a measure of technical merit (so I presume you're a business major ;-), then I would expect you to examine the fastest growing market segments, where smartphones (Android Linux) and tablets (iOS) are kicking butt.

On the other hand, if you wish to use the selection for the most demanding performance challenges as a measure of technical merit, then I would expect you to examine supercomputers, where Linux is all but ubiquitous.

Using an aging market in which a particular vendor has held a monopoly for well over a decade, since before introducing a totally new kernel in fact, seems like a really bizarre quality measure, frankly. It's almost as if you're selecting data to support your thesis. Hmmm....

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by Phucked on Tue 21st Jun 2011 10:57 UTC in reply to "RE: Looking Forward to Haiku"
Phucked Member since:
2008-09-24


PS: If you don't like monolithic so much, why don't you switch to Darwin?


The Darwin/Mac os X kernel is not a Microkernel

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/0506.mk3.html

The Mach kernel didn't fail; it was the Mach microkernel project that failed. Neither NeXT nor Apple ever used Mach as a microkernel.

Recall that at the time of NeXT's decision to use Mach in NeXTSTEP, Mach wasn't being developed as a microkernel with an external, operating system in userland. Rather, Mach 2.5 simply injected some new ideas on how a microkernel might work into an existing, fat kernel space.

Mach 2.5 was a fat kernel, not the problematic microkernel with horrific performance problems that Mach 3.0 turned out to be.

All the ideological criticisms lobbed back and forth between Linux creator (and fat kernel advocate) Linus Torvalds and Andrew Tanenbaum (the creator of the Minix microkernel) have nearly nothing at all to do with Mach as it is used in Mac OS X.

More Nails in the Coffin
Once again, just for good measure: Mac OS X is not based on a microkernel architecture, and has never used Mach as a microkernel. Apple's XNU kernel is larger than many monolithic kernels, and does not suffer from the intractable performance failure the world associates with Mach microkernel research.

Apple has incorporated progress the Mach project made in development of Mach 3.0, but nothing changed: Mac OS X still does not have a microkernel architecture. Its XNU kernel is not implemented as a microkernel. Apple does not use Mach as a microkernel.


XNU incorporates many technologies from Mach which makes it different than traditional fat kernels such as BSD or Linux. The microkernel myth confuses the facts by associating [anything related to Mach] with [the failure of the Mach microkernel project], which sought to remove BSD from Mach. Since Mac OS X's version of Mach is full of BSD, this false association is rooted in either ignorance or FUD (or both), depending on who is reweaving the myth.

So there you have it: the Mac OS X Microkernel Myth falls apart on the simple discovery that Mac OS X has no microkernel

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Looking Forward to Haiku
by JAlexoid on Tue 21st Jun 2011 11:29 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Looking Forward to Haiku"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

The Darwin/Mac os X kernel is not a Microkernel


And I never claimed it was. It's just not monolithic.

Reply Score: 2

A bit of a let down
by vodoomoth on Mon 20th Jun 2011 14:10 UTC
vodoomoth
Member since:
2010-03-30

Reading this has just dismayed my little me:
"Haiku does not yet support WPA encryption for wireless networking, only WEP encryption is supported."

Reply Score: 3

RE: A bit of a let down
by UltraZelda64 on Mon 20th Jun 2011 20:48 UTC in reply to "A bit of a let down"
UltraZelda64 Member since:
2006-12-05

Reading this has just dismayed my little me:
"Haiku does not yet support WPA encryption for wireless networking, only WEP encryption is supported."

Yeah, sort of. But I'm used to having *no* wireless, whatsoever, in Linux... so it could be worse. It's only an alpha, so the lack of WPA is completely acceptable to me. If the final R1 release doesn't support it, then there's a problem.

Edited 2011-06-20 20:49 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: A bit of a let down
by JAlexoid on Mon 20th Jun 2011 23:02 UTC in reply to "RE: A bit of a let down"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

Year 2000 called to remind that it's no longer true for quite a few years.
You are more likely to not have any support for old WiFi cards on Win7, than Linux.
(My Vista certified MoBo's sound drivers are crap under Win7, and released in 2007 no chance of getting any updates)

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: A bit of a let down
by aaronb on Sat 25th Jun 2011 10:31 UTC in reply to "RE: A bit of a let down"
aaronb Member since:
2005-07-06

I think Haiku is doing excellently for its 3rd alpha.

However Linux has better support for wifi at the moment. The difference between 2008 and now for me is wifi not working or buggy to working out of the box.

With the recent package management work in Haiku, it would not surprise me if R1 initially lacked driver support but was followed by a set of packages that contained drivers for wifi and other hardware.

Reply Score: 2

.
by d.marcu on Mon 20th Jun 2011 17:43 UTC
d.marcu
Member since:
2009-12-27

I see no pppoe support or did i missed it?

Reply Score: 1

Article changed
by aldeck on Mon 20th Jun 2011 17:47 UTC
aldeck
Member since:
2006-12-07

What happened? the article changed from the one published this morning. Though the original comments and recommendation were kept intact.

Now we get a "review" of an old Senryu 3rd party distro. Not even a link where to download alpha 3.

Edited 2011-06-20 17:48 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE: Article changed
by AndrewZ on Mon 20th Jun 2011 17:52 UTC in reply to "Article changed"
AndrewZ Member since:
2005-11-15

I think the article was published prematurely, then unpublished. Here is the link for the Haiku Alpha 3 download, the site seems to be under heavy load:
https://www.haiku-os.org/get-haiku

Oops, thanks, bonefish.

Edited 2011-06-20 17:52 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Article changed
by Neolander on Mon 20th Jun 2011 18:02 UTC in reply to "RE: Article changed"
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

Yup. Small editorial disagreement. Have put the link.

Reply Score: 1

Link Missing
by bonefish on Mon 20th Jun 2011 17:52 UTC
bonefish
Member since:
2007-03-21

While article has a section about Senryu (including a link), which doesn't really have anything to do with the Haiku release, a link to Haiku's home page or download page is missing.

http://www.haiku-os.org/
http://www.haiku-os.org/get-haiku

Reply Score: 5

Comment by specialspambot
by specialspambot on Mon 20th Jun 2011 18:05 UTC
specialspambot
Member since:
2011-01-28

the article needs to be pulled and rewritten, it really doesn't acknowledge the amount of work put into and capability of the realese.

Reply Score: 1

A rant about package management...
by Halo on Mon 20th Jun 2011 18:19 UTC
Halo
Member since:
2009-02-10

A long rant about Haiku's proposed dependency resolution follows, ignore it if you're not interested...

I lost whatever interest I had in Haiku when they announced they were adding a package manager with dependency resolution. It was the last nail in the coffin for me. Windows, Mac OS X, Android, iOS, and WebOS don't do it, and there's a reason for that. Dependency resolution is user unfriendly and completely unnecessary unless the OS consists of a web of interweaving dependencies rather than a single coherent whole and needs to be retrofitted into an existing platform (i.e. Linux).

The disadvantages of dependency resolution massively outweigh the advantages. The advantages are saving HDD space and bandwidth (increasingly a non-issue in the 21st century, and in practice only marginally beneficial with different versions) and security (libraries can be updated at once but that's a minefield in itself: do you risk your applications being broken by an update out of your control?), the disadvantages are encouraging a web of open-source external dependencies (and, as a consequence, encouraging ports of open source Linux software rather than native applications), and huge amounts of developer and user complexity. The last one really is the killer from my perspective.

A great desktop operating system would let you download any software as a single file and run it by double clicking. You should be able to 'install' it by copying that file into an 'apps' directory, and uninstall it by deleting the file. Moving applications from one PC to another is a matter of copying that single file. An update mechanism could be provided by including an update URL in the metadata and including a software updater in the OS. Any package manager would simply be a simplified 'official' way of downloading applications - nothing more, nothing less. Really, really simple and intuitive.

Providing multiple entry-points for CLI apps would be messier, but could still be done with packages by putting them in their own directory, listing the entry-points in metadata, and making them accessible either via './package/blah' or globally via a PATH variable (this would require metadata and keeping track of directory changes, but Haiku's FS has the functionality to deal with that anyway). It's a bit more complex but users of CLI applications will almost certainly be able to grasp it.

All of this is feasible and is conceptually really simple and really user-friendly. Instead, Haiku is implementing something much more complex inspired by what's absolutely necessary in Linux due to a distributed development model and backwards compatibility. They're developing a complex application mostly from scratch with its own UI paradigms to do functionality that could potentially be done with files in Tracker. Madness. I can't imagine Be doing that if they were still around.

Edited 2011-06-20 18:32 UTC

Reply Score: 5

AndrewZ Member since:
2005-11-15

There are many good reasons to have a package manager for Haiku. If you have ever installed one of the thousands of BeOS or Haiku apps from Haikuware you will find there are dependency challenges. Older BeOS apps need GCC2 libs to run correctly. Newer apps run with different GCC4 libs. And apps in development need a mix of other libs also in development. Currently there are several work-arounds, none of which are easy for the casual user.

You can download a 'big fat library install' with a bunch of libs all at a certain revision. This will work for some apps but breaks others. And when you install different apps, they too need different versions of the libs.

You can manage this manually with sym links, on an app-by-app basis. But it is a pain. And this is better done by automation.

Having a package manager is a really good idea for Haiku. For these reasons alone.

Edited 2011-06-20 18:33 UTC

Reply Score: 6

Halo Member since:
2009-02-10

Riddle me this: Why doesn't Mac OS X have any problems with dependencies? Why can't the Haiku developers just tell application developers that libraries should be included in application bundles?

BeOS does have dependency problems that Haiku inherits. BeOS was also made at a time when shared libraries made sense. If you're on a 28.8k modem with less than a gig of hard disk space, sharing dependencies is an attractive prospect.

It's not 1995 anymore, though, and you'll struggle to find anyone that cares that they have a dozen copies of Qt on their PC.

Edited 2011-06-20 19:04 UTC

Reply Score: 2

AndrewZ Member since:
2005-11-15

"Why can't the Haiku developers just tell developers that libraries should be included in application bundles?"

Some developers use this strategy now. It has pluses and minuses. One problem from this is very fat executables. Another problem is that the app is frozen to a lib that cannot be updated for bug fixes, vulnerability fixes, optimizations, or other improvements.

Also, Haiku developers can provide guidelines to app developers but cannot be dictators. We look to the Haiku developers for wisdom, not absolute laws.

It is my understanding that a shared library provides 'sharing' at run time. This way one lib can be used by many apps and the OS, at once, while they are running. This reduces memory footprints and loading times. This does not have anything to do with version issues. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Also, I am not so familiar with OSX, so I can't answer what it uses for lib versioning. Certainly some brilliant solution invented by Steve Jobs, possibly requiring a black turtleneck :-)

Edited 2011-06-20 19:18 UTC

Reply Score: 7

tanishaj Member since:
2010-12-22

It's not 1995 anymore, though, and you'll struggle to find anyone that cares that they have a dozen copies of Qt on their PC.


Well, I might not miss the drive space anymore but I am still always out of RAM. A half-dozen Qt apps, each with their own version of the framework, is not going to help.

Reply Score: 1

umccullough Member since:
2006-01-26

Windows, Mac OS X, Android, iOS, and WebOS don't do it, and there's a reason for that.


I honestly hate this discussion - it's just bikeshed in the end... but I have to comment:

Windows most certainly does have a notion of package management - they started doing that with windows 9x - the add/remove programs is a form of this. The registry keeps track of shared lib references so that installers/uninstallers can decide when a shared lib is still in use. Microsoft eventually tried to clean up the disaster of 3rd party installers by offering MSI to developers to help with versioning of libraries and installation to the proper locations. These are all aspects of package management, without the "evil name" that gets everyone all in a frenzy.

OS X benefits from including most of the shared libs already in the system. I don't use it, but I understand that common frameworks such as python and java are included in the OS itself - preventing the developers from having to include that stuff if they wish to use it. Furthermore, there are package management solutions for OS X such as MacPorts - to help people use software that isn't otherwise packaged the way you want it to be.

WebOS and iOS are sort of walled-garden systems - the users (and developers) aren't meant to screw with them.

Android falls into the above category as well, but out of all the options you list - it's the only one that is open source (although, that's debatable given that manufacturers tend to lock it down on their devices)...

In an open source operating system, the creator of the OS can't really define the limitations for the developers. With all of the closed source commercial ventures mentioned above, the vendors are making very strict rules... if you don't follow them, you're SOL. It's pretty damn hard to set similar restrictions on a fully open source x86 OS that anyone can download and compile themselves.

Adding package management features provides at least some form of guidelines that will allow users to access software that developers are producing. From what I gathered, it will encourage "all-in-one" bundles anyway, so I don't understand why people get so bent out of shape about this every time the topic comes up.

Reply Score: 8

JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

I'll add to that, that Android does have a notion of separate and updateable libraries. See Adobe Air apps on Android.

Reply Score: 2

Halo Member since:
2009-02-10

I honestly hate this discussion - it's just bikeshed in the end...


Then ignore it. Seriously.

Windows most certainly does have a notion of package management - they started doing that with windows 9x - the add/remove programs is a form of this. The registry keeps track of shared lib references so that installers/uninstallers can decide when a shared lib is still in use. Microsoft eventually tried to clean up the disaster of 3rd party installers by offering MSI to developers to help with versioning of libraries and installation to the proper locations. These are all aspects of package management, without the "evil name" that gets everyone all in a frenzy.


You've missed my point, so I'll repeat it succinctly:

THE PROBLEM IS WITH DEPENDENCY RESOLUTION.

"Package management" is just the Linux term for installing/uninstalling software. There is plenty of approaches to it but that's obviously core functionality. Personally, I don't like the term because it's loaded with presumptions. Incidentally, it's actually Haiku developers who took the phrase "Package Management" from their survey and translated it to mean there was a clamouring for a Linux-style package manager. Look it up. I've moaned about this presumption before.

Anyhow, you're right: Windows does have the idea of installing/uninstalling software (like all modern OSes). It also has the concept of shared libraries and the manifest to avoid dependency/DLL hell (but NOT dependency resolution, but something as nearly as crappy).

Why does Windows have a manifest? Because they thought shared libraries were a good idea in the early 90s and they wanted to preserve backwards compatibility. Not because it's a good idea. In fact, it's such a terrible idea that Microsoft has discouraged it "for over a decade" (http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2011/06/20/10176772.asp...).

Windows packaging also sucks. It's unnecessarily complicated, requires installers, and no unified update mechanism. No stupid dependency resolution, though: usually what you download is what you need. No interweaving webs of open source dependencies. Windows installers are generally standalone.

OS X benefits from including most of the shared libs already in the system. I don't use it, but I understand that common frameworks such as python and java are included in the OS itself - preventing the developers from having to include that stuff if they wish to use it.

All OSes should include the functionality of common shared libraries as native functionality. Windows, Android etc do that too.

Linux doesn't, but that's more due to Linux's decentralised model, which isn't one that Haiku seems to be following.

Furthermore, there are package management solutions for OS X such as MacPorts - to help people use software that isn't otherwise packaged the way you want it to be.

What percentage of Mac users use MacPorts, though? It's not officially sanctioned or installed by default.

WebOS and iOS are sort of walled-garden systems - the users (and developers) aren't meant to screw with them.

That has very little bearing on the merits
of dependency resolution, though.

An exploit in a library or the size of packages are the same, whether or not the systems are walled-gardens or not, or whether they're open or closed source. They could have chosen either.

Android falls into the above category as well, but out of all the options you list - it's the only one that is open source (although, that's debatable given that manufacturers tend to lock it down on their devices)...

Android isn't a walled-garden (I can download standalone APKs and run them on my handset), and again, it has little bearing on their choice.

For the record, I don't think "open source" should matter. It should be about the best damn software, not an ideology. Open source will win when it'll be the best overall, not because it's the open source.

Firefox eventually won because it was good. Mozilla lost because it was crap.
In an open source operating system, the creator of the OS can't really define the limitations for the developers. With all of the closed source commercial ventures mentioned above, the vendors are making very strict rules... if you don't follow them, you're SOL. It's pretty damn hard to set similar restrictions on a fully open source x86 OS that anyone can download and compile themselves.

Apple can't force people to use bundles rather than MacPorts on Mac OS X. Steam has replaced installers on Windows for games because installering and updating sucks. On Android, Amazon's Appstore is competing with Google's Android Market.

It's all about brand and the users. Haiku's advantage is that it's a single OS that is centralised and integrated, allowing it to make make sane defaults and force them through. Haiku is similar to Mozilla in that regard.

Adding package management features provides at least some form of guidelines that will allow users to access software that developers are producing.

Having a method of installation/uninstallation/updating is good. Having a way of getting software is good. No arguments there.

From what I gathered, it will encourage "all-in-one" bundles anyway, so I don't understand why people get so bent out of shape about this every time the topic comes up.

Even if it does, unless all packages are bundles and there's no dependency resolution, you end up with all the disadvantages. That's the problem.

If there's dependency resolution, you've just added a crapload of mental complexity onto users, even if only 10% of packages use it. That's without going into the development effort required.

You can never be sure that you can simply run an application and it'll just work without downloading more. You can never be sure that you can copy an application from one PC to another without the Internet and it'll just work. You can never be sure how big an application and its dependencies are at any given time. You can't never be sure that deleting a bundle will also delete its dependencies etc etc.

You'll also end up with one primary installation method and another being treated as second-fiddle. It's inevitable. Chances are that the package manager will win... which will mean more ports, increase the amount of dependencies, and reduce the chances of commercial software catching on. That's a huge issue that has massively set back Linux.

Anyway, that's my argument. I expect it'll be ignored but I feel I have to try.

Reply Score: 1

jessesmith Member since:
2010-03-11

Have you ever worked with systems that shipped all-in-one binary packages? Most users don't like it. They constantly ask "Why is Firefox over 90MB?" "Why does it take so long to download updates?" "What about my bandwidth caps?" "How come some packages haven't addressed security concern XYZ?"

Breaking software into shared libraries and using dependency resolution greatly reduces bandwidth and vastly improves security (one library can be updated instead of every packages on the system). Yes, there are some downsides.

Every so often some developer won't test changes properly and something will break, and it means users can't just drag-n-drop an application to a new machine and expect it to work. There is a trade-off. But demanding everyone move to all-in-one bundles ignores the fact that a lot of users don't want them. Even some who think they do change their minds once they see the problems that arise.

Reply Score: 3

specialspambot Member since:
2011-01-28

Have you ever worked with systems that shipped all-in-one binary packages? Most users don't like it. They constantly ask "Why is Firefox over 90MB?" "Why does it take so long to download updates?" "What about my bandwidth caps?" "How come some packages haven't addressed security concern XYZ?"

Breaking software into shared libraries and using dependency resolution greatly reduces bandwidth and vastly improves security (one library can be updated instead of every packages on the system). Yes, there are some downsides.

Every so often some developer won't test changes properly and something will break, and it means users can't just drag-n-drop an application to a new machine and expect it to work. There is a trade-off. But demanding everyone move to all-in-one bundles ignores the fact that a lot of users don't want them. Even some who think they do change their minds once they see the problems that arise.



Generally speaking, not really. Just software developers seem to complain about it.Most of them are unix and linux zealots, so who cares.

Reply Score: 1

Slambert666 Member since:
2008-10-30

Have you ever worked with systems that shipped all-in-one binary packages? Most users don't like it. They constantly ask "Why is Firefox over 90MB?"


Firefox 5.0 Setup is 13.3MB, where do you get the 90MB from?

Reply Score: 1

drcouzelis Member since:
2010-01-11

A great desktop operating system would let you download any software as a single file and run it by double clicking. You should be able to 'install' it by copying that file into an 'apps' directory, and uninstall it by deleting the file. Moving applications from one PC to another is a matter of copying that single file.


All of this is possible with the new plans for the Haiku package manager and package format.

Why can't the Haiku developers just tell application developers that libraries should be included in application bundles?


Libraries CAN be included in application bundles in the new Haiku package format. They'll run perfectly, even if you have another version of the library installed.

It sounds to me like you have a bad case of "WHY CAN'T EVERYONE DO IT THE WAY I THINK IS THE BEST?" ;)

Reply Score: 8

Halo Member since:
2009-02-10

.

Edited 2011-06-21 00:51 UTC

Reply Score: 1

stippi Member since:
2006-01-19

You are listing the basic pro and con arguments. The problem is I don't come the same conclusion as you.

For one thing, I think that being able to update one dependency for security reasons and fix all apps using that component is a killer feature.

Second, shared libraries don't only save diskspace and bandwidth, it also means that they are loaded only once in memory, which reduces application start up time and system memory usage.

Third is that my experience is completely opposite to yours. With the systems that do it right in your oppinion, I have experienced bad failures. Hunting down and installing software on both Windows and Mac OS has been a nightmare at times, while it has been *consistently* a no-brainer on my Ubuntu installs. As an example, try getting Subversion installed on Mac OS X or Windows and get it running over SSH in Eclipse. Hint: It is impossible without googling for snippets of error messages, wading through unanswered forum entries of fellow sufferers, until you finally find someone who tells you what config file to edit. And that is only an example. The other weekend I have had a lot of fun trying to install video encoding software on Windows 7 which will produce Theora, WebM and MP4 files suitable for HTML 5 video streaming: Hint I did not encode a single video on that weekend. All this stuff is a no-brainer on Ubuntu, the only reason I even attempted it in Windows 7 is because I have cut my videos with Sony Vegas and thought I could possible render directly from Vegas. Fat chance...

The bottom line is that installing software on Ubuntu is very, very user friendly, through package management and dependency resolution. The PPA universe is awesome, too. I don't care whether copying a package to another computer will do something useful, I rather care that my setups are mirrored, there are other, more elegant solutions, than to copy files around.

Reply Score: 1

hurray
by transputer_guy on Mon 20th Jun 2011 19:51 UTC
transputer_guy
Member since:
2005-07-08

Been using alpha 1,2 since they came out but only just got networking up with a USB Nic from DLink (has to be plugged in at boot time). I should have just looked at the HW compatibility list earlier.

Will be interesting to see the improvements!!

Reply Score: 2

Couple things
by agildehaus on Mon 20th Jun 2011 20:18 UTC
agildehaus
Member since:
2005-06-29

Is there any hope for 2D support for recent nVidia cards (the 400/500 series)? The VESA driver is great and all, but it doesn't support anywhere near the native resolution of my monitor and I'm stuck with a letterboxed 1280x1024.

Built-in Bonjour (Rendezvous) support for printing would be quite welcomed.

Also: Is WebPositive still seeing active development? It doesn't seem to have moved much in the last 6 months.

GREAT release though, despite the shortcomings to be expected with an alpha ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE: Couple things
by Parry Hotter on Mon 20th Jun 2011 21:27 UTC in reply to "Couple things"
Parry Hotter Member since:
2007-07-20

Is there any hope for 2D support for recent nVidia cards (the 400/500 series)? The VESA driver is great and all, but it doesn't support anywhere near the native resolution of my monitor and I'm stuck with a letterboxed 1280x1024.

Sooner or later a developer will find himself in the same situation and implement the support needed.

Is WebPositive still seeing active development? It doesn't seem to have moved much in the last 6 months.

Haiku is alive and overall doing well although progress might be sporadic for various parts of it. WebPositive development may seem dormant right now but will erupt again.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Couple things
by jonas.kirilla on Tue 21st Jun 2011 00:12 UTC in reply to "Couple things"
jonas.kirilla Member since:
2005-07-11

I know it's not what you asked for, but fwiw there is work in progress on native Radeon HD support. 2D, modesetting.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Couple things
by Kivada on Tue 21st Jun 2011 05:02 UTC in reply to "Couple things"
Kivada Member since:
2010-07-07

Is there any hope for 2D support for recent nVidia cards (the 400/500 series)? The VESA driver is great and all, but it doesn't support anywhere near the native resolution of my monitor and I'm stuck with a letterboxed 1280x1024.


Need to wait for the Gallium3D Nouveau driver http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/FeatureMatrix

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=nouveau_linux3&n...

Shouldn't be too much longer till it gets ported as it's one of the highest priority pieces to the puzzle. There still a cash bounty out for it?

Reply Score: 1

I have been gone too long.
by jefro on Mon 20th Jun 2011 21:37 UTC
jefro
Member since:
2007-04-13

Wow! exfat and all that other stuff is great.

Good job for the hard working folks at Haiku-OS.

Reply Score: 1

yawn
by lameass on Mon 20th Jun 2011 23:54 UTC
lameass
Member since:
2011-05-18

Hm, what's the point again? I tried it on a real PC. It's kinda fast, but surely no faster than the other os's i run.

Also, the GUI is enormously annoying (what the fekk is up with 1 million levels of nested menus? my hand hurts after 15 minutes with this OS.)

Also, locks up on my quad core - no-SMP mode kinda worked for a while.

Reply Score: 2

RE: yawn
by Valhalla on Tue 21st Jun 2011 00:08 UTC in reply to "yawn"
Valhalla Member since:
2006-01-24


Also, the GUI is enormously annoying (what the fekk is up with 1 million levels of nested menus? my hand hurts after 15 minutes with this OS.)

You skimped on your training during puberty it seems, I'm afraid Haiku is not for you. You will now be redirected to Disney.com where you will feel right at home.

;)

Reply Score: 2

RE: yawn
by jonas.kirilla on Tue 21st Jun 2011 00:21 UTC in reply to "yawn"
jonas.kirilla Member since:
2005-07-11

There's no reason to go chasing around the filesystem with the right-click menu on the Desktop. It's not meant to be used that way, and there's nothing forcing you to use it that way. There are multiple alternatives to achieve what you can do with the filemanager context menu. Haiku has a start menu. (the blue leaf icon) Most of the apps are there. There are "spring-loaded folders" to respond to drag&drop, you can cut/copy/paste files around, keyboard shortcuts let you move around in the filesystem. There's Alt-Tab (or Ctrl-Tab) and workspaces.. There's just a lot. Open the User Guide and find the alternatives before you hurt yourself any more.

If you can report anything about the lockup that would be very much appreciated. Hardware spec., listpci (listdev?) from e.g. Linux or from Haiku. Perhaps a syslog or serial output from Haiku. If you were doing something particular.

Edited 2011-06-21 00:26 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: yawn
by specialspambot on Tue 21st Jun 2011 00:53 UTC in reply to "yawn"
specialspambot Member since:
2011-01-28

Hm, what's the point again? I tried it on a real PC. It's kinda fast, but surely no faster than the other os's i run.

Also, the GUI is enormously annoying (what the fekk is up with 1 million levels of nested menus? my hand hurts after 15 minutes with this OS.)

Also, locks up on my quad core - no-SMP mode kinda worked for a while.



While if you had wasted 5% of the time you did in typing this really negative reply and read the user manul, you would have noticed under prefrences tracker, you can set the window navigation to single window.

Reply Score: 1

RE: yawn
by daedalus on Tue 21st Jun 2011 09:28 UTC in reply to "yawn"
daedalus Member since:
2011-01-14

Hm, what's the point again? I tried it on a real PC. It's kinda fast, but surely no faster than the other os's i run.


Well, it's much, much faster than Windows and Ubuntu on my dual-core PC, though Puppy Linux gives it a run for its money...

Also, the GUI is enormously annoying (what the fekk is up with 1 million levels of nested menus? my hand hurts after 15 minutes with this OS.)


Wow. You really need to open your mind a little bit and play with the OS for a while. There are so many time-saving and efficient techniques for common tasks built into the OS that are different to other "traditional" operating systems that it will take a while to learn them all. Approaching it from a closed Windows / Mac / Linux perspective will not do you any favours.

Anyway, if your hand hurts, I'd seriously look at your ergonomic setup there - you could be doing yourself some damage by not using your mouse properly.

Also, locks up on my quad core - no-SMP mode kinda worked for a while.


It's not even beta, it's *alpha*. That means it's never gonna work on all configurations, it may not even have support for your CPU, or perhaps it's a motherboard issue - often motherboards are buggy, and those bugs are worked around in the driver code. There are so many of these issues in the wild that it will be a long, long time before Haiku developers get around to catering for them all.

Reply Score: 1

Some edits to thoms text.
by judgen on Tue 21st Jun 2011 04:05 UTC
judgen
Member since:
2006-07-12

Koffice: http://qt-haiku.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=54:... It is available and easily installed.

VLC: http://qt-haiku.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=55:...

Recent version of
Transmission is also available now and works just fine: http://qt-haiku.ru/index.php?option=com_rokdownloads&view=file&Item...

So it is not just rumors.. They are true, and all of them works fine over here at least. I know anecdotal evidence is worthless so i recommend you try it out for yourself.

Also the excellent webkit browser QTWeb is also available now for haiku and crashes alot less than arora on my system.

//Judgen

Reply Score: 2

RE: Some edits to thoms text.
by AndrewZ on Tue 21st Jun 2011 04:46 UTC in reply to "Some edits to thoms text."
AndrewZ Member since:
2005-11-15

I am sorry but I have to disagree here. Firstly, it is not Thom's text :-) KOffice and VLC 1.0.4 do not and have not run on Haiku. At least not Alpha 2.

KOffice does not have an easily reproducible installation. And Haiku was previously missing necessary POSIX signals needed by VLC. I alpha tested it in Jan 2010. This may be changing soon. But no hard news yet.

Can you perhaps send a screen capture of these running on your copy of Haiku? :-)

Edited 2011-06-21 04:53 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Scanner support is not built-in !
by phoudoin on Tue 21st Jun 2011 08:44 UTC
phoudoin
Member since:
2006-06-09

Support for numerous scanners through the SANE/BeSANE library and GUI, thanks to Philippe Houdoin.

Please, Andrew, don't let people believe there is in alpa3 numerous scanners support built-in.

The truth is:
- it's not built-in!
- my 6 years old BeOS-era SANE port, which you're one of the lucky guy(s) being able to use it successfully with your Epson 636U (IIRC) scanner, is still very limited to a small set of scanners from this period. No recent scanners will works until someone port new recent SANE backends to Haiku.

I appreciate the intention, but really this is the kind of statement that is more counter-productive than anything. When people will discover that the promise is not a reality, they will rant about Haiku when the issue lives in a third party outdated port.

I hope that seeing the point you'll fix your article.

Updates to 3D functions in OpenGL, thanks again to Philippe Houdoin

Now these are built-in indeed :-) but was more in the bug fixing bag than a new feature. Anyway...

Philippe Houdoin.

Reply Score: 3

AndrewZ Member since:
2005-11-15

OK, sorry about that and thanks for the correction. The intent was to say that BeSane was updated since Alpha 2.

And yes, my old UMAX 1220 scanner is supported so I personally I think BeSANE is pretty cool!

Edited 2011-06-21 14:12 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Comment by neticspace
by neticspace on Tue 21st Jun 2011 11:27 UTC
neticspace
Member since:
2009-06-09

Haiku will thrive better than never before when it goes green for beta and soon a handful of Haiku-based distros will cater the needs of the users.

Long live BeOS!
Long live Haiku!

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by neticspace
by jonas.kirilla on Tue 21st Jun 2011 14:32 UTC in reply to "Comment by neticspace"
jonas.kirilla Member since:
2005-07-11

The Haiku project doesn't encourage distros. We can't do much to keep them from happening, but we can disallow them from using the HAIKU trademarks if they're deemed Haiku-incompatible. (Anything that runs on a public Haiku release should also run without error on any Haiku distro. If it doesn't it's not "Haiku".)

Relatively speaking we're a small team with a cornucopia of herculean tasks. We try to encourage people to bring their ideas, join Haiku rather than work separately. There's plenty of opportunity, in-house, so to speak. ;)

Reply Score: 2

Comment by cipri
by cipri on Tue 21st Jun 2011 15:34 UTC
cipri
Member since:
2007-02-15

The current state of haiku is quite good. I guess soon we will have a decent packagemanager. "Just" wpa, hmtl 5, gallium3d, a more modern GUI (rewrite of Deskbar,....), are missing, and I would be fully satisfied :-). Well, I admit, Chrome I would like to have too ;)

Reply Score: 1

Works great on ASUS EeePC 701
by cypress on Tue 21st Jun 2011 17:00 UTC
cypress
Member since:
2005-07-11

I made a short video of this build of Haiku running on an EeePC 701: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcLJFUFF_CI

Reply Score: 1

Comment by zizban
by zizban on Wed 22nd Jun 2011 02:17 UTC
zizban
Member since:
2005-07-06

Is this monolithic vs microkernel debate boring anyone else?

Reply Score: 3

RE: Comment by zizban
by demetrioussharpe on Wed 22nd Jun 2011 15:12 UTC in reply to "Comment by zizban"
demetrioussharpe Member since:
2009-01-09

****** RANT ALERT!!! ******

Is this monolithic vs microkernel debate boring anyone else?


Yes! And the sad thing about it is that it's been debated by far superior minds than you'd find here & even they can't agree. It's hard to imagine that someone sitting at their computer arguing on OSNews has the solution. The reason? Because there's no solution. There's no right or wrong way. Various tasks call for various solutions. At the end of the day, there's no such thing as hybrids, the specifics of either monolithic or ukernel are rather simple -either the system components are in kernel space or they're not. Calling something a hybrid is really the implementer of one type of kernel trying to to use features from the other type of kernel without caving in. However, it doesn't matter if you call your implementation a hybrid kangaroo; if it's non-kernel system components live in kernel space, then it's monolithic. If there drivers & other functionality that's normally in kernel space actually resides in userspace & you've been rather bullyish about pushing stuff out of the kernel & out into the upper levels, then it's a ukernel. But, which one you decide to implement doesn't matter! There are plenty of ukernels that are successes & do what their implementers want them to do (obviously QNX, not so obviously MINIX). Then again, there are plenty that haven't proven themselves a success (HURD). Also, there are plenty of monolithic kernels that were successes (Windows, Unix, every version of MacOS that's ever shipped). Also, there are tons of monolithic kernels that have been failures & I'm not even going to list those, because for many (& myself) the memories are too painful to relive. The point is, this is an argument that can't be won within the confines of the comment list for an OSNews item. If any of you reading this post disagree, then prove me wrong by producing one of these OS's yourself. Whether you're successful or not, at least it'll keep you busy by giving you something better to do than trolling about which design's the best.

Reply Score: 1

Comment by cipri
by cipri on Wed 22nd Jun 2011 08:56 UTC
cipri
Member since:
2007-02-15

I'm tired of that linux dabates. I have the impression that every "nobody" things, that he will make a good image if he writes something related to linux and/or kernel. Let active kernel developers/researchers talk about kernels. Yes some people might think that you are "genius" if they see you posting about kernels (as long as they dont understand what you are saying, they will think that it's likely that you are saying something true, no matter it it's true or not). But why would you care? Is it woth the effort (of writing and debating) just to give to an anymouse person the impression that you know a lot about kernels.
It's the same about Linux discussions. There are a lot of guys talking about linux who in fact never have been able to write decent c/c++ code.
If you managed to type "./configure" and "make" into terminal and compile an application it doesnt't mean that you are more intelligent or have more knowledge than a 7-years old child that has just learnt the alphabet and can do the same.
Just because you read something somewhere, it doesnt automatically mean it's also true. So please dont try to spread that "informatioon". Spread just information, that you really know, and what you really understood.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Comment by cipri
by demetrioussharpe on Wed 22nd Jun 2011 15:24 UTC in reply to "Comment by cipri"
demetrioussharpe Member since:
2009-01-09

I'm tired of that linux dabates. I have the impression that every "nobody" things, that he will make a good image if he writes something related to linux and/or kernel. Let active kernel developers/researchers talk about kernels. Yes some people might think that you are "genius" if they see you posting about kernels (as long as they dont understand what you are saying, they will think that it's likely that you are saying something true, no matter it it's true or not). But why would you care? Is it woth the effort (of writing and debating) just to give to an anymouse person the impression that you know a lot about kernels.
It's the same about Linux discussions. There are a lot of guys talking about linux who in fact never have been able to write decent c/c++ code.
If you managed to type "./configure" and "make" into terminal and compile an application it doesnt't mean that you are more intelligent or have more knowledge than a 7-years old child that has just learnt the alphabet and can do the same.
Just because you read something somewhere, it doesnt automatically mean it's also true. So please dont try to spread that "informatioon". Spread just information, that you really know, and what you really understood.


And, on top of that, this isn't even a Linux story. If you're the type of person who has to hijack news about some other OS, so you can talk about your favorite OS, then you're really a sad piece of work. The fact of the matter is, this story's about Haiku & the Haiku have done an amazing job, considering how much work they've had (& still have) ahead of them. Now, I understand that people like their OS's, but they really should use some decency. There's plenty of Linux news to go around, so if you really love Linux that much, then go post comments on the Linux stories. The Haiku guys have worked hard for this release & this is their day, if you disagree, try to write your own OS & see how hard it is. And I'm talking about the WHOLE OS, not just some kernel with no userland. To be honest, the userland's probably harder to implement & get right than the actual kernel, who knows. But the point is this: STOP TROLLING!!!

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Comment by cipri
by cipri on Wed 22nd Jun 2011 17:55 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by cipri"
cipri Member since:
2007-02-15

Hi Dee.
Nice to see you around. I remember when I switchen to Haiku, aljen asked me about you. I have no idea how much contact you have right now with Haiku, but it would be great to see you around. Also Jonas, Rick, Anthony and Flemming I would love to see in the haiku community.
Haiku has a lot to offer, e.g. very competent devs, and not at least money for developers.
It's a pleasure to have met you again.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Comment by cipri
by demetrioussharpe on Thu 23rd Jun 2011 05:46 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by cipri"
demetrioussharpe Member since:
2009-01-09

Hello Ciprian. Email me: demetrioussharpe at netscape dot net.

Reply Score: 1

a decade too late
by TheGreatSudoku on Wed 22nd Jun 2011 19:59 UTC
TheGreatSudoku
Member since:
2009-07-28

I was an avid R5 user back in day, I loved BeOS then, but...

Haiku is a project geared at re-creating an operating system that is now a decade out of date. And it shows painfully when trying to use the alphas.

Try getting Bezilla installed, and if you do get it installed, try using it for more than 5 minutes.

Try viewing youtube videos. If you can get them to load at all, it looks like a sloppy hack job.

NetPositive was a useless, featureless browser. Why is so much effort being put into creating its successor, WebPositive? Porting Firefox or Chrome would seem like a better use of resources.

Back in 2000 BeOS was MUCH more user friendly and easier to use and install than Linux. Much has changed in the past 11 years. Linux is now easier to use than BeOS, wireless and graphics drivers "just work" out of the box. Getting working versions of Mozilla and VLC in linux is a much easier task than in Haiku. Not to mention eye candy like compositing window managers, and themes for the window manager that linux has that Haiku lacks.

These alpha releases would have been great in 2001-2002 right after Be shut down. But a decade has gone by and Haiku really shows it's age by being so rooted in recreating an R5 experience. And linux just keeps getting more user friendly. Gone are the days of having to edit config text files to get the X server up and running. BeOS was great BEACUSE of it's innovation. I'd much rather see Haiku continue in that spirit of innovating than trying to recreate an OS that is clearly out of date.

Reply Score: 1

RE: a decade too late
by umccullough on Thu 23rd Jun 2011 06:44 UTC in reply to "a decade too late"
umccullough Member since:
2006-01-26

Try getting Bezilla installed, and if you do get it installed, try using it for more than 5 minutes.


No surprise that an abandoned browser project gives you trouble...

NetPositive was a useless, featureless browser. Why is so much effort being put into creating its successor, WebPositive? Porting Firefox or Chrome would seem like a better use of resources.


What leads you to believe that WebPositive is anything like NetPositive?

It's already got a webkit rendering engine and tabbed interface just like a modern browser - and it's just a barebones solution still.

Super troll-tastic of you there.

Reply Score: 2

RE: a decade too late
by v_bobok on Thu 23rd Jun 2011 07:53 UTC in reply to "a decade too late"
v_bobok Member since:
2008-08-01

Sorry, too much trolling...

Reply Score: 2

RE: a decade too late
by clasqm on Thu 23rd Jun 2011 08:16 UTC in reply to "a decade too late"
clasqm Member since:
2010-09-23

Haiku is a hobbyist OS. You don't like the way it deals with YouTube? Get in there and fix it. You don't like the appearance? Join the dev team, submit patches, get your hands dirty.

Haiku is not right now an OS for end-users. It may be one day, but right now it is for people who enjoy dealing with this sort of thing. And that is why the haiku devs are writing their own browser: it is an opportunity to learn, to know what it is like to create something from nothing.

If all one wanted was an operating system with good compatibility, lots of applications and a nostalgic BeOS look, well, there's ZevenOS. But where's the adventure in that?

I also feel sometimes that progress on Haiku is agonisingly slow. But there are only so many people with expertise at this level who are interested in helping out and I fully agree with their decision way back to focus on creating a fully stable BeOS clone before doing anything else. It stops the project being split apart by internal politics before they have a solid product out the door.

Mind you, if you look closely there are a few areas where they have not copied BeOS slavishly - you won't find that long list of obsolete 14400 modems anywhere!

Reply Score: 1

RE: a decade too late
by jonas.kirilla on Thu 23rd Jun 2011 20:01 UTC in reply to "a decade too late"
jonas.kirilla Member since:
2005-07-11

Don't assume that we're not innovating, or that we're just happily indulging in BeOS-nostalga. Haiku may be labelled alpha but has already surpassed BeOS in a number of ways. I'm personally hopeful that e.g. package management and file content indexing will be part of the next alpha or beta release.

We're focused on pushing on with the alphas, betas and a solid Haiku Release 1, capable of running BeOS apps, but that's just a milestone, a waypoint. It will be very interesting to see how the project evolves after that, both the people and the product.

It will probably not be trivial to get *everyone* to commit to the same vision of a revolutionary Haiku R2 or R3, but there's no lack of ideas, wishlists and todo-lists. The project works, decisions do get done, it hasn't been 10 years of just replicating BeOS, mindlessly, not thinking. We have been through some, as a team, so I'm hopeful.

Edited 2011-06-23 20:17 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: a decade too late
by stippi on Fri 24th Jun 2011 15:35 UTC in reply to "a decade too late"
stippi Member since:
2006-01-19

So basically you have heard Haiku is replicating BeOS. So it must be completely outdated. Have you looked closer at *anything* in Haiku?

Reply Score: 1

Question on big or multiple monitors
by transputer_guy on Fri 24th Jun 2011 15:27 UTC
transputer_guy
Member since:
2005-07-08

I am using Haiku on a 1920x1200 panel. I used to run BeOS way back on a pair of 21" CRTs at 1600x1200 each thanks to the twinhead utility with a compusa ATI card.

Is anyone else using Haiku with a bigger desktop on say a 2560 x 1440 27" or even 2560 x 1600 30" panel or multi head with common panels?

Reply Score: 2