Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 21:19 UTC
PDAs, Cellphones, Wireless Last week, HP killed its webOS devices unit. Over the weekend, the company slashed the prices on the TouchPad. The result? The TouchPad sold out completely in a matter of hours. This confirms what I've been hearing from friends and family: "I'd love a tablet, but I'm not paying laptop money for one."
Order by: Score:
Bummed to see this now
by WorknMan on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 21:27 UTC
WorknMan
Member since:
2005-11-13

This news would've been great had you guys posted it a couple of days ago when they dropped the price, instead of today, when they're already sold out everywhere.

As for laptop vs tablet, I already have a desktop, so I'd much rather have a tablet more than a laptop for the few times I do travel. As for high demand for cheap tablets, how come nobody picked up those cheap $100-$200 iPad knockoffs that came out before Honeycomb was released? Oh yeah, that's right... because they were all pieces of shit, with the possible exception of the Nook Color, which wasn't exactly a tablet to begin with.

If phones running these kinds of specs cost $500-$600, I'm not sure why you think somebody can make a tablet (with an even bigger screen) and sell it for $200 less, and have it not suck. Possibly the only company that could do it is Apple, since nobody else makes money off of app sales, but Apple sure as hell won't do it, so long as people are always lined up to purchase an iPad.

Edited 2011-08-22 21:37 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: Bummed to see this now
by fretinator on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 21:30 UTC in reply to "Bummed to see this now"
fretinator Member since:
2005-07-06

I've checked, and the internet is open on week-ends.

Reply Score: 11

RE[2]: Bummed to see this now
by spiderman on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 06:18 UTC in reply to "RE: Bummed to see this now"
spiderman Member since:
2008-10-23

But we do not all have a server farm with spiders crawling the web continuously. Some of us kind of rely on OSNews OSS feed to get interesting news.
I know Tom is not paid for this so I forgive him but I would like to get back in time just one day and have my Touchpad for €70.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Bummed to see this now
by fretinator on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 12:22 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Bummed to see this now"
fretinator Member since:
2005-07-06

Sorry for the sarcasm - I too rely on places like OSNews, Google News, Linux Today, Slashdot, Digg.com, etc. So, Thom, no more dalliances with school and all!

I wish I could have gotten a Touchpad, too. Even more, I wish Palm was still a company, and still evolving and growing. It's a shame when a pioneer in computing like Palm goes down the drain. Rows and columns of icons on a touchscreen - yeah, that was certainly invented by Apple.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Bummed to see this now
by Thom_Holwerda on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 21:47 UTC in reply to "Bummed to see this now"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

This news would've been great had you guys posted it a couple of days ago when they dropped the price, instead of today, when they're already sold out everywhere.


Yeah I know but I've pretty much just emerged from a masters thesis-induced coma. Back in the real world now. Done with university. FOREVAR.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Bummed to see this now
by clasqm on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 22:48 UTC in reply to "RE: Bummed to see this now"
clasqm Member since:
2010-09-23

Forever, Thom? Give it a year, then you'll start thinking how "Dr Holwerda" has such a nice ring to it ...

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Bummed to see this now
by mrstep on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 02:34 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Bummed to see this now"
mrstep Member since:
2009-07-18

That's so Euro, I love seeing everyone wave their titles over across the pond, not just on a diploma, but really get into it.

Booking a Lufthansa flight, the friggin' drop-down for title actually offers Mr. Prof. Dr. as an option. Really? I'm booking a plane ticket, not trying to join a country club - though clearly the staff can't show me the proper respect if I don't fill in my titles. That's Herr Prof. Dr. Mag. Dir. Senatsrat to you!

Sorry, pet peeve.

Uh, back on topic, I would have picked up a Prof. Dr. TouchPad myself for $99 just to have check out the UI and have one in the closet as a collectible.

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: Bummed to see this now
by unclefester on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 06:39 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Bummed to see this now"
unclefester Member since:
2007-01-13

At least the Europeans still take pride in education.

In the US it take four years of college to barely achieve the academic standards of high school graduates in South Korea or eastern Europe.

Many of the topics I covered in the second year of my Australian undergraduate science degree were Masters level subjects at leading US universities.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Bummed to see this now - NCGA
by jabbotts on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 13:17 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Bummed to see this now"
jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

No Child Get's Ahead.. er.. No Child Left Behind

Reply Score: 2

bryanv Member since:
2005-08-26

No Child Get's Ahead.. er.. No Child Left Behind



No Child Gets Ahead.


There, fixed it for you. (incorrect apostrophe)

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Bummed to see this now
by mrstep on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 22:18 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Bummed to see this now"
mrstep Member since:
2009-07-18

Some do, others take pride in never getting a job.

In terms of quality of education, I had the opposite experience. I had covered topics and had access to labs full of far better equipment by my sophomore year of university than people who had finished their 'Magister' degrees in Europe, though that didn't stop them looking down on a 4 year bachelors from their 5 years-for-half-the-education programs. Amusing, and why would I question it when they put a Mag. before their names.

Title wanking is totally annoying. I guess when schools are all essentially free people can sit around and ponder what additional - often useless - Doctorate they can focus on next. No, the U.S. doesn't offer that luxury, but given the large numbers of foreigners that come here for degrees - generally also without feeling the need to drop a title like it's a 007 label - I'm not too concerned.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Bummed to see this now
by vitae on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 23:25 UTC in reply to "RE: Bummed to see this now"
vitae Member since:
2006-02-20

Congrats.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Bummed to see this now
by WorknMan on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 01:13 UTC in reply to "RE: Bummed to see this now"
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

Yeah I know but I've pretty much just emerged from a masters thesis-induced coma. Back in the real world now. Done with university. FOREVAR.


Hey that's alright, Thom. Now that you're out of school, I bet we can look forward to an assload of more patent-related articles ;)

PS: Why can't you guys use the f**king 'quote' tag like every other bulletin board system instead of 'q', or at least make both work.

Edited 2011-08-23 01:24 UTC

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Bummed to see this now
by kristianhk on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 09:20 UTC in reply to "RE: Bummed to see this now"
kristianhk Member since:
2009-06-08

Congrats, I'll hopefully be done myself, in a few months. Just have to stop surfing on OSnews, I guess ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE: Bummed to see this now
by zima on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 22:56 UTC in reply to "Bummed to see this now"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

If phones running these kinds of specs cost $500-$600, I'm not sure why you think somebody can make a tablet (with an even bigger screen) and sell it for $200 less, and have it not suck.

In other words, a matter of a year or so, tops. And who knows what Amazon might unveil soon... (especially since they won't be afraid to make up the cost on media they will sell)

Check out, say, ZTE Blade; what can be had, since the beginning of this year, in a phone factor for half of the price you quote. And while tablet factor makes for more materials, more expensive screen and battery ...some thing are probably easier, cheaper (no need for such extreme miniaturisation)

But overall, it would be still to much duplication for my taste; too close to smartphones. So I wouldn't be surprised at all if we'll eventually settle on "small tablets" or "large smartphones" (without their presently silly premiums), just one device (which would also finally give real purpose to Bluetooth headsets ;) )

Reply Score: 2

RE: Bummed to see this now
by bnolsen on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 00:26 UTC in reply to "Bummed to see this now"
bnolsen Member since:
2006-01-06

The cheap chinese knockoffs right now have super crap resolutions (800x480) and resistive screens. Cheap soc's however are getting better, the newer ones put the performance in the ipad1 range.

The 16GB version of the Touchpad is estimated $296 in quality materials. Totally different class of machine.

I think right now the LCD and touch screen dominate the costs, which of course is where the chinese tablets fail in providing the price.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Bummed to see this now
by unclefester on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 05:55 UTC in reply to "Bummed to see this now"
unclefester Member since:
2007-01-13

If phones running these kinds of specs cost $500-$600, I'm not sure why you think somebody can make a tablet (with an even bigger screen) and sell it for $200 less, and have it not suck. Possibly the only company that could do it is Apple, since nobody else makes money off of app sales, but Apple sure as hell won't do it, so long as people are always lined up to purchase an iPad.


You obviously know nothing about economics.

Most products retail for at least 10-20 times the manufacturing cost.

Those $500 phones almost certainly have a unit manufacturing cost of <<$50 each.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Bummed to see this now
by kristoph on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 06:01 UTC in reply to "RE: Bummed to see this now"
kristoph Member since:
2006-01-01

You obviously know nothing about economics.

Most products retail for at least 10-20 times the manufacturing cost.

Those $500 phones almost certainly have a unit manufacturing cost of


You do understand that the reason why HP is getting out of the TouchPad and the desktop PC business (which they currently dominate) is because the margins are like minuscule (5% at best).

Sure, premium clothing and accessories might sell for 10-20 their manufacturing cost but consumer electronics never had these type of margins.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Bummed to see this now
by unclefester on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 07:28 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Bummed to see this now"
unclefester Member since:
2007-01-13

You are completely confusing net profit with gross margins.

No manufacturing company ever operates on 5% gross margins.

If you think HP is paying $475 per tablet to the Chinese manufacturer you are hallucinating.

eg:
tablet per unit manufacturing cost:$50
trade price $100 (paid by HP)
wholesale price $400 (paid by computer store)
retail price $500 (paid by consumer)

At each stage about 10% net profit is made after costs.

BTW designer clothes and accessories typically sell for ~100x the manufacturing cost. Designer brand polo shirts cost $~0.8 to make in China. Top designer brand jeans $~2. Most of the retail cost is due to sponsorship and marketing.

The single largest cost for Nike at one stage was sponsorship of Michael Jordan. He was paid more than the entire combined wages bill of all the employees in the manufacturing division.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Bummed to see this now
by M.Onty on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 14:13 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Bummed to see this now"
M.Onty Member since:
2009-10-23

The single largest cost for Nike at one stage was sponsorship of Michael Jordan. He was paid more than the entire combined wages bill of all the employees in the manufacturing division.


I feel slightly queesy now, thank you; as I hope Mr Jordan when he was informated of that fun fact.

P.S. Can we have a source if possible. You have my interest.

Edited 2011-08-23 14:14 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Bummed to see this now
by kristoph on Wed 24th Aug 2011 18:54 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Bummed to see this now"
kristoph Member since:
2006-01-01

Ok, first of all, you said 10-20x previously and now, in your example, it's 4x which is more realistic cost of manufacturing.

However, that's totally irrelevant, because someone has to actually design the thing, test it, have it built, manage QA, package it, ship it, market it, ,sell it, support it (and I've not even mentioned the software involved).

Just saying 'x costs 1/4 to build and so it should be cheaper' is meaningless because 'building' something ignores all the costs of getting the thing to a consumer.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Bummed to see this now
by viton on Wed 24th Aug 2011 20:25 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Bummed to see this now"
viton Member since:
2005-08-09

tablet per unit manufacturing cost:$50

Can you provide a bill of materials to back up your number?
Like iSupply does.
The average cost of components of different tablets is around $300 by their estimate.

Edited 2011-08-24 20:26 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: Bummed to see this now
by karunko on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 14:22 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Bummed to see this now"
karunko Member since:
2008-10-28

You do understand that the reason why HP is getting out of the TouchPad and the desktop PC business (which they currently dominate) is because the margins are like minuscule (5% at best).

That makes for a quick explanation but there are many other factors to consider:

1) Companies (and HP is certainly not the only one in this respect) expect a much quicker turn around for their investment than it used to be. For instance when Xerox funded the Palo Alto Research Center in the early 70s they were expecting a profit in 10 (ten) years! (see "Dealers of Lightning: Xerox Parc and the Dawn of the Computer Age" for some perspective).

2) HP's CEO comes from SAP, a software colossus, and knows absolutely nothing about hardware -- and probably doesn't understand it either.


RT.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Bummed to see this now
by Yoko_T on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 22:42 UTC in reply to "Bummed to see this now"
Yoko_T Member since:
2011-08-18

This news would've been great had you guys posted it a couple of days ago when they dropped the price, instead of today, when they're already sold out everywhere.

As for laptop vs tablet, I already have a desktop, so I'd much rather have a tablet more than a laptop for the few times I do travel. As for high demand for cheap tablets, how come nobody picked up those cheap $100-$200 iPad knockoffs that came out before Honeycomb was released? Oh yeah, that's right... because they were all pieces of shit, with the possible exception of the Nook Color, which wasn't exactly a tablet to begin with.

If phones running these kinds of specs cost $500-$600, I'm not sure why you think somebody can make a tablet (with an even bigger screen) and sell it for $200 less, and have it not suck. Possibly the only company that could do it is Apple, since nobody else makes money off of app sales, but Apple sure as hell won't do it, so long as people are always lined up to purchase an iPad.


You're wrong because nobody in their right mind is going to buy something off the internet from an outfit they've never heard of before, especially it's hyped by people they know absolutely nothing about.

Can you say Ebay Scam? Most Likely.

Reply Score: 1

v Interesting experiment
by Tony Swash on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 21:54 UTC
RE: Interesting experiment
by No it isnt on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 22:05 UTC in reply to "Interesting experiment"
No it isnt Member since:
2005-11-14

30 million isn't that much, considering the hype and the calls for the death of the desktop. It's comparable to the number of Linux users.

Reply Score: 7

RE[2]: Interesting experiment
by kristoph on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 22:44 UTC in reply to "RE: Interesting experiment"
kristoph Member since:
2006-01-01

Yes it is comparable to the number of Linux users but Linux has been around for 20 years and the iPad 17 months.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Interesting experiment
by Windows Sucks on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 23:17 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Interesting experiment"
Windows Sucks Member since:
2005-11-10

Yeah and the rumor is that they will sell 22 million over holidays. This rate is faster then Apple sold iPods when they were at this point. And we know what happened with that. There are iPods and then everything else.

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: Interesting experiment
by No it isnt on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 11:01 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Interesting experiment"
No it isnt Member since:
2005-11-14

And iPod sales have been declining for several years.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Interesting experiment
by Windows Sucks on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 14:22 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Interesting experiment"
Windows Sucks Member since:
2005-11-10

And iPod sales have been declining for several years.


Yes but it's still the best selling Music device on earth. No other music player ever caught it.

But now everyone uses their phones for this stuff.

Yet Apple replaced the iPod with an even better selling phone and better selling tablet.

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: Interesting experiment
by tupp on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 16:13 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Interesting experiment"
tupp Member since:
2006-11-12

And iPod sales have been declining for several years.
Yes but it's still the best selling Music device on earth. No other music player ever caught it.

No.

As of June, 2009, more than 340 million Sony Walkmans had been sold since 1978.

Apple had sold 297,000,000 Ipods as of December, 2010.

I doubt that Apple has sold more than 43 million Ipods since December, and that, simultaneously, Walkman sales have stagnated.

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: Interesting experiment
by Windows Sucks on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 17:20 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Interesting experiment"
Windows Sucks Member since:
2005-11-10

"And iPod sales have been declining for several years.
Yes but it's still the best selling Music device on earth. No other music player ever caught it.

No.

As of June, 2009, more than 340 million Sony Walkmans had been sold since 1978.

Apple had sold 297,000,000 Ipods as of December, 2010.

I doubt that Apple has sold more than 43 million Ipods since December, and that, simultaneously, Walkman sales have stagnated.
"

I mean really? Tape players and iPods are not the same last time I looked?

Let me change the statement. "The iPod is BY FAR the best selling DIGITAL music device on earth. Tape decks not included." lol

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Interesting experiment
by Tony Swash on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 16:50 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Interesting experiment"
Tony Swash Member since:
2009-08-22

And iPod sales have been declining for several years.


Which doesn't really impact Apple as iPods now account for only 5% of Apple's revenue. The iPod will finally be superseded by another Apple device.

And of course the iPhone and iPad both have iPods built in, I stopped using my iPod when I got an iPhone which is now my iPod.

Meanwhile Apple mostly sells iPod Touch's which are a convenient and popular introduction to the world of iOS devices - it's particularly popular gift for kids and means that when they get their iPhone or iPad they already know how operate iOS devices.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Interesting experiment
by Soulbender on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 22:44 UTC in reply to "Interesting experiment"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

The trouble with that hypothesis is that it seems there are tens of millions of people who don't think the iPad is too expensive.


On a global scale, that's really not that many units sold for a consumer device. Especially not considering that it is supposed to usher in the death of the desktop.
For $500 you can get a decent laptop that does more than an iPad, not to mention desktop systems.
Might explain why Apple haven't sold more units.

It turns out there is no such thing as a 'tablet market'.
Just an iPad market.


Uh, yeah, ok. Maybe you need to step out of the RDF for a while.

In order generate the same sort of enthusiastic sales demand that is common place for the iPad you have to sell competing devices at a fifth of the price of an iPad.
Good luck with that.


Yea, that didnt work out AT ALL for the IBM PC. Apple was such a dominant player in the desktop space. Not learning from the past, are we.

Reply Score: 7

RE[2]: Interesting experiment
by kristoph on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 22:59 UTC in reply to "RE: Interesting experiment"
kristoph Member since:
2006-01-01

On a global scale, that's really not that many units sold for a consumer device. Especially not considering that it is supposed to usher in the death of the desktop.

It's actually the fastest selling consumer product in the history of man kind.

For $500 you can get a decent laptop that does more than an iPad, not to mention desktop systems.

You can but the iPad is not really there to compete with a $500 (Windows) laptop. You can do stuff on such a laptop but (for most people) the experience will not be nearly as pleasant as the using an iPad 2.

Might explain why Apple haven't sold more units.

I'll just say again here that the iPad is the fastest selling consumer product in human history.


"It turns out there is no such thing as a 'tablet market'.
Just an iPad market.


Uh, yeah, ok. Maybe you need to step out of the RDF for a while.
"

Actually, at this time, there is a very small non-iPad tablet market, and a very large iPad market. That's the reality today.

It might change and the iPad could become like the iPhone with 20% market share or it could be like the iPod with 65% marker share.

Yea, that didnt work out AT ALL for the IBM PC. Apple was such a dominant player in the desktop space. Not learning from the past, are we.


I don't know about the past but Apple today is worth more then Dell, HP, and Lenovo combined so I don't think they need to learn much from the past.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Interesting experiment
by Thom_Holwerda on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 23:07 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Interesting experiment"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

It's actually the fastest selling consumer product in the history of man kind.


I doubt that. Remember - the iPad is actually TWO products. The Nokia 1100 alone sold 200 million units in five years - that's 40 million *per year*, compared to your combined iPad1/2 sales of, like, 25-30 million in 18 months.

Reply Score: 4

modmans2ndcoming Member since:
2005-11-09

unfortunately... it is a Nokia 1100.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Interesting experiment
by M.Onty on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 14:17 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Interesting experiment"
M.Onty Member since:
2009-10-23

Nothing wrong with the 1100, you just have to scale back your expectations to about five years before its release date.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Interesting experiment
by zima on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 23:15 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Interesting experiment"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

It's actually the fastest selling consumer product in the history of man kind.

We're not talking about Nokia 1100 here.

I'll just say again here that the iPad is the fastest selling consumer product in human history.

My, you are confused.

So, what is it for iPad in a year+, a mere 30 million? Try 250 million over the course of 3-4 years.

the iPad could become like the iPhone with 20% market share or it could be like the iPod with 65% marker share.

iPhone in a subcategory, iPod in few visible markets... plus, the world simply quickly zoomed past the time of dedicated music players. It's clear ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ipod_sales_per_quarter.svg ) the iPod really took off (and still only in few atypical places) at roughly the same time it happened also to mobile phones with music player capability (mobile phones which weren't castrated by carriers in most places)

Yes, their music capability isn't used so universally as in the case of iPods. For my region, it's something like 20-30% of all European mobile phone users also regularly listening music on them. But that already adds up just in that one region to an absolute value in the range of total number of iPods ever produced.

Anyhow, in a reasonably prosperous ex-Comecon late EU memberstate, I can probably count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've seen an iPod (well, excluding mine...). S1 mp3 players, and similar (Creative, et al), seemed to be typical for quite some time; largely replaced by mobile phones few years ago already (typically by so called "feature phones" ...though, later, often in a form of touchsreens, like LG Cookie).
And most places are less prosperous than mine, with even greater mark-up on Apple products.

I don't know about the past but Apple today is worth more then Dell, HP, and Lenovo combined so I don't think they need to learn much from the past.

This one always fascinates me. People are often very quick, particularly at tech forums, to voice their disdain towards bankers, brokers, etc. ...except when worshipping valuations of some darling of theirs made by... the very same despised people.

Edited 2011-08-22 23:17 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Interesting experiment
by JAlexoid on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 00:54 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Interesting experiment"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

iPad1 is not iPad2. Otherwise we should count in the replacement of Nokia 1100 on the market and that will blow iPad range away any day now.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Interesting experiment
by Tony Swash on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 14:32 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Interesting experiment"
Tony Swash Member since:
2009-08-22

I don't know about the past but Apple today is worth more then Dell, HP, and Lenovo combined so I don't think they need to learn much from the past.
This one always fascinates me. People are often very quick, particularly at tech forums, to voice their disdain towards bankers, brokers, etc. ...except when worshipping valuations of some darling of theirs made by... the very same despised people.


Personally I don't despise bankers, I just think they need better regulation.
If there was no food hygiene regulations then lots of people would die from food poising after eating in restaurants - it wouldn't make restaurants a bad thing just unregulated restaurants.

On your substantive point. Economic performance does matter, not only is is it an indicator of the relative success of the competing technologies and products in the market place but also because all the technologies would be meaningless if they are not made into products by enterprises and the long term economic health of those enterprises drastically effects which products have a secure future and which don't.

Total valuation is not on it's own a telling indicator but it is indicator along with profitability, revenues, balance sheet etc.

Reply Score: 2

jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06


You can do stuff on such a laptop but (for most people) the experience will not be nearly as pleasant as the using an iPad 2.


Yes.. because the ipad is far more "pleasent" for using keyboard/mouse centric programs or replacing everything one could do with a 500$ laptop right? Be careful how you throw around the claim that no computer use can be a pleasent as on your brand loyalty.

Reply Score: 7

kristoph Member since:
2006-01-01

Yes.. because the ipad is far more "pleasent" for using keyboard/mouse centric programs or replacing everything one could do with a 500$ laptop right? Be careful how you throw around the claim that no computer use can be a pleasent as on your brand loyalty.



You missed my point. I was simply saying that on a $500 laptop most software generally runs poorly.

I have a USD 450 Lenovo I got purely for development testing and the thing is pretty poor. The battery life sucks, browsing performance is bad (that could be mostly flash though), Microsoft office apps struggle, and don't even think about playing any PC games from this era.

On the other hand I don't have any such issues with an iPad 2 and so the experience is much better at a comparable cost.

]{

Reply Score: 3

Drumhellar Member since:
2005-07-12

I don't know about $500 laptops, but my $450 laptop runs most software quite well.

Reply Score: 5

daedalus Member since:
2011-01-14

I appreciate the point you're making there, the iPad is certainly a more pleasant experience for casual browsing and what not, but while a $450 laptop is bound to struggle with large applications, how does your iPad 2 handle Microsoft Office? Or any PC game from a few years ago? A $450 laptop will be clunky for many tasks, but at least it can *do* them, and that makes it a more useful device in many situations.

Reply Score: 4

henrikmk Member since:
2005-07-10

I appreciate the point you're making there, the iPad is certainly a more pleasant experience for casual browsing and what not, but while a $450 laptop is bound to struggle with large applications, how does your iPad 2 handle Microsoft Office? Or any PC game from a few years ago? A $450 laptop will be clunky for many tasks, but at least it can *do* them, and that makes it a more useful device in many situations.


I find it interesting how the tablet is continually compared to a laptop. Why would you run MS Office on an iPad? Why would you run apps or games that require touch and accelerometer on a laptop? You might as well compare the laptop to a similarly priced game console. Do people complain that MS Office doesn't run on an XBox and that you can't typeset large documents with a gamepad?

With regards to games, the iPad is exactly in the same situation as any game console in that the hardware doesn't change very often. This brings a certain guarantee to the experience for anyone using the device and I don't have to be bothered with "my laptop is too slow for my expensively purchased app/game" complaints.

You know that you will get a much more consistent experience with an iPad than a similarly priced laptop in the same way that games for an XBox are very likely to run on your XBox. Whether you find that experience too restrictive or can be happy with it is another matter.

Reply Score: 4

jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

I'd agree that the different form factors are better suited to different use cases. Personally, I'd still like to explore the true potential in the hardware rather than have it limited by some manufacturer's vision of what I want to run and what interface I want to control it.

In this specific thread, the comparisons are in reponse to the original claim that anything done on a tablet chassis (specifically; ipad) will be a more pleasent experience than a clamshell chassis. The original claimant sais; "they do the same and this one is better always." The respondents; "a tablet is good for this type of use, a clamshell is good for this type of use."

Reply Score: 2

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

I find it interesting how the tablet is continually compared to a laptop.


Because of the constant hyperbole that the tablets, and iPad in particular, will usher in the death of the PC and/or laptop?

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Interesting experiment
by tupp on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 17:17 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Interesting experiment"
tupp Member since:
2006-11-12

It's [the Ipad] actually the fastest selling consumer product in the history of man kind.

This statement is yet another classic example of the unrelenting Apple hyperbole and of the irrationality of most Apple worshipers.

One would have to include a few severely limiting conditions in such a statement, before it could even become close to being true. Then, the brag wouldn't be very impressive.

Do Apple fanboys really believe that more Ipads have been sold in a day/week/month/year than cans of Coca-Cola? ... bottles of Budweiser? ... packs of Malboro cigarettes? ... gallons of Exxon gasoline? The list goes on and on. These are definitely consumer products (and the user actually "consumes" most of them).

It would not be surprising that Apple sales are strong, in light of the fact that there are many who actually believe statements such as the one quoted above. Certainly, Apple sales figures have less to do with the merits of Apple products and more to do with Apple marketing.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Interesting experiment
by kristoph on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 18:30 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Interesting experiment"
kristoph Member since:
2006-01-01

No, your right, that was my fault and as other pointed out, Nokia holds that crown.

I confess to being biased given that I hold a non trivial number of Apple shares but I do own all of these devices including a dozen apple products, several Android devices (several phones and a tablet), and several PC's (actually I was a Win developer in my past life).

I do believe Apple products are currently the best based on my usage of them all - the computers and the tablets more so then the phones.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Interesting experiment
by tupp on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 18:44 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Interesting experiment"
tupp Member since:
2006-11-12

Fanboys, please endeavor to get the facts straight before making bold declarations about Apple products.

And, no, the Nokia 1100 is not "the fastest selling consumer product in the history of man kind." Numbers for food products are much much greater than any hardware product can ever hope to achieve.

In regards to your belief that Apple products are the best, well, everybody has a right to an opinion.

Edited 2011-08-23 18:46 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Interesting experiment
by Tony Swash on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 23:01 UTC in reply to "RE: Interesting experiment"
Tony Swash Member since:
2009-08-22

Yea, that didnt work out AT ALL for the IBM PC. Apple was such a dominant player in the desktop space. Not learning from the past, are we.


I think Apple learned all the right lessons from the past and not the idiotic ones (licence the OS etc).

Here are a few of the many lessons learned:

a) Build a better value stack for your customers (world's best and biggest app store, world's best retail experience, world's best brand, world's best digital content store, etc).

b) Build a set of products that cater for every market segment, except the piss poor crap end, and which are highly integrated, snap together in ingenious ways, allow easy user skill and content migration.

c) Build the world's best supply chain and use your cash mountain to not only secure the best components but prevent your competitors from getting their hands on any. Note the way that would be Macbook Air competitors cannot get any unibody manufacturing deals because Apple sewed them up. Similarly when the retina display iPad arrives probably next year no one else will be able to buy such displays.

d) Based on the above build products that no one can else can match in price and quality and make any money on. Kill the OEMs one by one.

Apple built a business with the iPad from scratch, with an entirely new product range in a product category that was minute, that if it was a stand alone business would have been in the fortune 500 in just 18 months. Trying to dismiss the scale of Apple's achievement or the size of the impact it is having on the PC and tech world is just silly. The iPad is kicking away the last legs that the sclerotic PC makers were leaning on. HP' departure won't be the last.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Interesting experiment
by karunko on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 14:02 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Interesting experiment"
karunko Member since:
2008-10-28

a) Build a better value stack for your customers (world's best and biggest app store, world's best retail experience, world's best brand, world's best digital content store, etc).

Please, define "world's best". According to whom or what?

b) Build a set of products that cater for every market segment, except the piss poor crap end

Okay, where is my headless desktop then? And no, the Mac Pro doesn't really qualify.

c) Build the world's best supply chain and use your cash mountain to not only secure the best components but prevent your competitors from getting their hands on any.

And this is good for me as a consumer because...? Maybe you sit in the board of directors and I don't, but I thought competition was (supposedly) a good thing, but it seems that no company really wants any -- Apple in particular.

d) Based on the above build products that no one can else can match in price and quality

Yeah, keep on dreaming. Or check the prices. Whichever is going to cause you less stress. As far as I am concerned, my only reason to be interested in Apple is OS X. Or rather, was. Lion is firmly in the "what where they thinking" category and, if this is any indication of the things to come, I'm ready to move on.

Trying to dismiss the scale of Apple's achievement or the size of the impact it is having on the PC and tech world is just silly.

And what about believing AND repeating baseless claims then?

The iPad is kicking away the last legs that the sclerotic PC makers were leaning on. HP' departure won't be the last.

Steve, is that you?


RT.

PS: Could we have "fanboy (-1000)" option and just save time in the future? ;-)

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Interesting experiment
by ccraig13 on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 16:09 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Interesting experiment"
ccraig13 Member since:
2011-05-31

Okay, where is my headless desktop then? And no, the Mac Pro doesn't really qualify.

Ever hear of a mac mini?

PS: Could we have "fanboy (-1000)" option and just save time in the future? ;-)

How bout a "I don't know how to google (-1000)" option?

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Interesting experiment
by karunko on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 16:36 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Interesting experiment"
karunko Member since:
2008-10-28

"Okay, where is my headless desktop then? And no, the Mac Pro doesn't really qualify.

Ever hear of a mac mini?
"
I said desktop, by which I mean some parts should be user replaceable/expandable -- at very least disks (as in more than one), RAM and graphics card. At the moment only RAM fits the description. In other words: no matter how you spin it, there's no such thing and Apple is conspicuously absent in this market segment.

"PS: Could we have "fanboy (-1000)" option and just save time in the future? ;-)

How bout a "I don't know how to google (-1000)" option?
"
Is this relevant or adding anything to the discussion? My point was that I was just feeding the troll. What's yours?


RT.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Interesting experiment
by Tony Swash on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 17:03 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Interesting experiment"
Tony Swash Member since:
2009-08-22

Please, define "world's best". According to whom or what?.



Well the Apple app store has the most apps and sells the most apps and makes developers a lot more money than any other app store. Thus best. Apple retail stores are hugely popular, have astonishing best of class visitors and sales per square foot and are growing much fast than an other retail chain. Thus best. Apple's brand always tops or comes near the top of customer appreciation and satisfaction surveys, brand appreciation surveys, reliability surgery etc. Thus best. Apple has the digital contents store with the biggest range of content and larger turnover and sales. Thus best. It's not rocket science.

Okay, where is my headless desktop then? And no, the Mac Pro doesn't really qualify.


Mac Mini - duh!

And this is good for me as a consumer because...? Maybe you sit in the board of directors and I don't, but I thought competition was (supposedly) a good thing, but it seems that no company really wants any -- Apple in particular.


That depends whether you like Apple products or not. My comment was about understanding why Apple succeeds, which includes factors such as this.


Yeah, keep on dreaming. Or check the prices. Whichever is going to cause you less stress. As far as I am concerned, my only reason to be interested in Apple is OS X. Or rather, was. Lion is firmly in the "what where they thinking" category and, if this is any indication of the things to come, I'm ready to move on.


Competitors have struggled to match the iPad in build quality and price and when they come close they make far less money than Apple. Its a similar story with the Macbook Air, competitors cannot match the unibody build quality and price and have been begging Intel unsuccessfully for special discounts


Steve, is that you?


You may not like the way the tech world is evolving but trying to pretend it isn't changing or that Apple isn't doing remarkably well especially in the new growth sectors is just silly. You don't have to be a fan boy to see what is happening or to be interested in the reasons why.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Interesting experiment
by karunko on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 17:23 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Interesting experiment"
karunko Member since:
2008-10-28

"Please, define "world's best". According to whom or what?.


Well the Apple app store has the most apps and sells the most apps and makes developers a lot more money than any other app store. Thus best [...] It's not rocket science.
"
Only if you are ready to accept that, say, Lady Gaga is the best musician ever because she sells more records than [obscure or semi obscure musician of choice]. ;-) And I find rather odd that, all of a sudden, bigger means better while not until too long ago it was all about "quality". Looks like fat numbers are important only when they're good for you.


"Okay, where is my headless desktop then? And no, the Mac Pro doesn't really qualify.


Mac Mini - duh!
"
As I said:
- Can you replace the RAM? Check.
- Can you replace the hard disk? No.
- Can you have more than one? No. (Unless you go for the server version).
- Can you replace the graphics card? No.

Also, no matter how sleek the design is, it still represents very poor value for money.


Competitors have struggled to match the iPad in build quality and price and when they come close they make far less money than Apple. Its a similar story with the Macbook Air, competitors cannot match the unibody build quality and price and have been begging Intel unsuccessfully for special discounts

I asked before and I'll ask again: please explain how this is good for me as a consumer.



RT.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Interesting experiment
by Soulbender on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 18:59 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Interesting experiment"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Well the Apple app store has the most apps and sells the most apps and makes developers a lot more money than any other app store. Thus best.


That's not the definition of best. Most != best.

Apple retail stores are hugely popular, have astonishing best of class visitors


What's a "best of class visitor"? The king?

Apple has the digital contents store with the biggest range of content and larger turnover and sales. Thus best.


You're not measuring quality, you're measuring quantity. By the same measurement Britney Spears made "the best" music and the VW Beetle is "the best" car.

It's not rocket science.

Differentiating between quantity and quality seem to be rocket science though.

Edited 2011-08-23 19:02 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Interesting experiment
by karunko on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 15:06 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Interesting experiment"
karunko Member since:
2008-10-28

The iPad is kicking away the last legs that the sclerotic PC makers were leaning on. HP' departure won't be the last.


Sorry, but Lenovo begs to differ.

This wasn't hard to find but, for instance, from: http://www.techcentral.ie/article.aspx?id=17271

"Lenovo profits nearly double
Becomes third largest PC maker"

The Chinese company reported that both desktop PC and laptop shipments for the quarter increased by 23% from the same period last year.

Dying, indeed.

Or should we count the iPads as PCs just to make Steve & Co. happy?



RT.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Interesting experiment
by ccraig13 on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 16:41 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Interesting experiment"
ccraig13 Member since:
2011-05-31

Lenovo makes a quality product. My old ThinkPad (IBM version) was extremely well built. They also get very high marks from Consumer Reports. They're my first choice when looking at non-Apple hardware, so I'm glad they're doing well. Never had good experience with HP/Compaq ( Always seemed to be fixing somone's... )

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Interesting experiment
by Soulbender on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 16:54 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Interesting experiment"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Dude, what are you smoking? Don't you know that Apple is the ONLY company in the known universe who makes quality computers? Clearly you must be mistaken regarding this...what was it?...Lenovo company, whoever they are.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Interesting experiment
by Tony Swash on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 17:13 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Interesting experiment"
Tony Swash Member since:
2009-08-22

"The iPad is kicking away the last legs that the sclerotic PC makers were leaning on. HP' departure won't be the last.


Sorry, but Lenovo begs to differ.

This wasn't hard to find but, for instance, from: http://www.techcentral.ie/article.aspx?id=17271

"Lenovo profits nearly double
Becomes third largest PC maker"

The Chinese company reported that both desktop PC and laptop shipments for the quarter increased by 23% from the same period last year.

Dying, indeed.

Or should we count the iPads as PCs just to make Steve & Co. happy?

RT.
"

Apple just beat Lenovo in China

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-08-19/hardware/299...

Its the shape of things to come.

Apple's sales in China went up six fold in the last year.

Apple doesn't chase PC sales by just market share or units, and thus is not interested in the pretty dreadful world of razor thin margins and shabby beige boxes.

Of course iPads are are computers just a new sort of computer. I know their are a lot of folks who love yesterday's technologies and their certainties but times change.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Interesting experiment
by karunko on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 17:31 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Interesting experiment"
karunko Member since:
2008-10-28



What part of "The data were not directly comparable since Lenovo did not include Taiwan and Hong Kong in its calculations" you didn't get? ;-)

And sorry, but this is just too good to let go:

Apple doesn't chase PC sales by just market share or units, and thus is not interested in the pretty dreadful world of razor thin margins and shabby beige boxes.

Are these really your words? No one can write stuff like that and keep a straight face -- congratulations if you can!


RT.

Reply Score: 2

BallmerKnowsBest Member since:
2008-06-02

Here are a few of the many lessons learned:

a) Build a better value stack for your customers (world's best and biggest app store, world's best retail experience, world's best brand, world's best digital content store, etc).

b) Build a set of products that cater for every market segment, except the piss poor crap end, and which are highly integrated, snap together in ingenious ways, allow easy user skill and content migration.

c) Build the world's best supply chain and use your cash mountain to not only secure the best components but prevent your competitors from getting their hands on any. Note the way that would be Macbook Air competitors cannot get any unibody manufacturing deals because Apple sewed them up. Similarly when the retina display iPad arrives probably next year no one else will be able to buy such displays.

d) Based on the above build products that no one can else can match in price and quality and make any money on. Kill the OEMs one by one.


You forgot one:

Fill all of your marketing materials with words like "best", "biggest", "most", etc. This sort of juvenile triumphalism will appeal to people who have a compulsive need to brag about something & who will endlessly repeat those talking points to anyone who will listen (as you've done here). That sort of thing appeals to people with no actual accomplishments of their own, so they latch onto Apple. It's just the adult version of "my dad can beat up your dad," but with Apple as daddy.

These are the folks who choose computing devices solely based on which one will give them the best bragging-rights-by-proxy. Which is why Apple fanboys stick out like sore thumbs on tech forums: when you have a community of actual technology enthusiasts, it just makes the wannabes and hangers-on more obvious.

Trying to dismiss the scale of Apple's achievement or the size of the impact it is having on the PC and tech world is just silly. The iPad is kicking away the last legs that the sclerotic PC makers were leaning on. HP' departure won't be the last.


Hahaha, jump the gun much? Outside of the "tablets are killing the desktop" hype-bubble, the total sales of BOTH models of the iPad have barely managed to overtake the first XBox (only 125 million to go before they catch up with the PS2). Decent numbers for a game console or consumer electronics toy, but utterly pathetic for something that's supposedly going to "kill the desktop" and be the "computing platform of the future."

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Interesting experiment
by tupp on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 22:49 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Interesting experiment"
tupp Member since:
2006-11-12

Note the way that would be Macbook Air competitors cannot get any unibody manufacturing deals because Apple sewed them up.

What?

Why do Apple fanboys often feel the need to dream-up non-existent scenarios for their arguments. I guess that deep down they must realize that their beloved corporation is not anywhere near as great as they pretend.

First of all, there actually are quite a few "unibody" laptops out there, they are just made of polycarbonate plastic.

Secondly, anyone can contract any "run-of-the-mill" CNC shop to machine unibody enclosures. Apple doesn't have all of the zillions of CNC machines in the world "sewn-up" -- that's quite a crazy notion.

Nonetheless, several reasons make metal "unibody" laptops an unattractive proposition. First of all, if the pieces are machined as in Apple's method, the process is expensive, time consuming, wasteful and environmentally unsound. Secondly, if one drops one of these metal items and a panel is bent, one faces a very expensive repair.

There have been lots of reports of bent/dented unibody Macs. Presumably, this drawback is the reason why Apple subsequently offered a more resilient polycarbonate "unibody" laptop.

In addition, "unibody" construction doesn't really have any practical advantages -- it isn't any stronger (it's weaker and less resilient in Apple products), and it doesn't add any protection to the internal components. If you want strength and protection in your laptop, get one of the several "ruggedized" brands, such as Panasonic ToughBooks.

So, the basic reason that most manufacturers don't machine "unibody" laptop enclosures is because it is basically a stupid, expensive and problematic idea, that puts form over function.

By the way, Apple was definitely not the first to offer a production model of a laptop with metal, "unibody" construction. Here is a Sony laptop from 1997 with a shell made up of four magnesium panels (doesn't dent as easily as the aluminum Macs): http://www.sony.net/Fun/design/history/product/1990/pcg-505.html

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Interesting experiment
by Tony Swash on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 23:05 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Interesting experiment"
Tony Swash Member since:
2009-08-22

"Note the way that would be Macbook Air competitors cannot get any unibody manufacturing deals because Apple sewed them up.

What?

Why do Apple fanboys often feel the need to dream-up non-existent scenarios for their arguments. I guess that deep down they must realize that their beloved corporation is not anywhere near as great as they pretend.

First of all, there actually are quite a few "unibody" laptops out there, they are just made of polycarbonate plastic.

Secondly, anyone can contract any "run-of-the-mill" CNC shop to machine unibody enclosures. Apple doesn't have all of the zillions of CNC machines in the world "sewn-up" -- that's quite a crazy notion.

Nonetheless, several reasons make metal "unibody" laptops an unattractive proposition. First of all, if the pieces are machined as in Apple's method, the process is expensive, time consuming, wasteful and environmentally unsound. Secondly, if one drops one of these metal items and a panel is bent, one faces a very expensive repair.

There have been lots of reports of bent/dented unibody Macs. Presumably, this drawback is the reason why Apple subsequently offered a more resilient polycarbonate "unibody" laptop.

In addition, "unibody" construction doesn't really have any practical advantages -- it isn't any stronger (it's weaker and less resilient in Apple products), and it doesn't add any protection to the internal components. If you want strength and protection in your laptop, get one of the several "ruggedized" brands, such as Panasonic ToughBooks.

So, the basic reason that most manufacturers don't machine "unibody" laptop enclosures is because it is basically a stupid, expensive and problematic idea, that puts form over function.

By the way, Apple was definitely not the first to offer a production model of a laptop with metal, "unibody" construction. Here is a Sony laptop from 1997 with a shell made up of four magnesium panels (doesn't dent as easily as the aluminum Macs): http://www.sony.net/Fun/design/history/product/1990/pcg-505.html
"

http://www.pcworld.com/article/237812/apple_forces_competition_to_a...

Sure unibody laptop enclosures are stupid. Sure. PC makers could make them if they wanted. Sure. Keep saying that. Still doesn't change anything.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/237992/windows_laptop_makers_cant_ca...

PC OEMs are finding it hard to impossible to match the Macbook Air which is flying off the shelves. Apple is the only PC maker that is still showing substantial growth and makes most of the profits in the industry. There are reasons for that.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Interesting experiment
by tupp on Wed 24th Aug 2011 00:32 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Interesting experiment"
tupp Member since:
2006-11-12

http://www.pcworld.com/article/237812/apple_forces_competition_to_a...
Sure unibody laptop enclosures are stupid. Sure. PC makers could make them if they wanted. Sure. Keep saying that. Still doesn't change anything.

Dude. The author of that article has no clue about manufacturing processes nor about the widespread availability of CNC mills. He is obviously just another one of the many Apple-worshiping journalist, as indicated by the article's last sentence: "In the end, only Apple will be able to reliably deliver the cool, calming, solid, familiar tactile experience that end-users and IT admins alike desire." Detect any bias in that sentence?

Again, there are CNC shops all over the place. The manufacturers do not have to buy such machines as that crappy article suggests. If Apple had a lock on all of the CNC machines in the world, pretty much every industry on the globe would be in a crisis. It's a ridiculously naive, fanboy-wishful-thinking notion.

Furthermore, it is not necessary to machine metal "unibody" enclosures as there are metal forging processes that are just as strong and cheaper (namely stamping).

No. The reason why most manufacturers are keeping away from CNC housings is because they can make a less expensive, less wasteful and more resilient housing using plastics.



Another article by an Apple-worshiping "journalist" posted by the same site. I am not going to even bother pointing-out the biased language.

Again, the author has no clue about manufacturing.

Not surprisingly, this second article actually references the first article you linked as it's information source that "Apple has booked solid all the lathes."

Really?! Oh, Apple! You are so smart and forward thinking! Now you have all of those cheap inferior competitors by the short hairs!!!

It is amazing that people actually stomach such tripe without thinking. There is no way that Apple can "book" all of the CNC mills in the world. Additionally, all industry would shut down if it were so.

However, I would like to point out that, even though this article is biased in favor of Apple, the author acknowledges that Sony and Dell offered super thin laptops years before the Macbook Air.


PC OEMs are finding it hard to impossible to match the Macbook Air which is flying off the shelves.

PC makers don't want to match the Macbook Air -- the housing is too expensive, wasteful and environmentally unsound (20,000 CNC mills -- hello!) to manufacture. In addition, there are the aforementioned bending problems, that require more expensive (and harder to machine) alloys.


Apple is the only PC maker that is still showing substantial growth and makes most of the profits in the industry.

Everyone has a right to one's opinion about what constitutes "substantial growth," but one thing that cannot be denied is that there are way more non-Apple laptops being sold, compared to Macbook sales.


There are reasons for that.

Yes. And the reason is that there are millions of people who are gullible enough to believe that Apple has a lock on all of the CNC houses in the world.

Edited 2011-08-24 00:37 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: Interesting experiment
by kristoph on Wed 24th Aug 2011 07:16 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Interesting experiment"
kristoph Member since:
2006-01-01

So let me see if I understand your post.

- Those respected journalists who are pro-apple are actually pro-apple fanboys who know nothing about anything while you are a manufacturing idiot savant

- Apple is actually an environmentally wasteful manufacturer of crap; never mind what those pinko-commie Greenpeace people say and the unparalleled customer satisfaction rating

- Plastic is fantastic! Plastic is better, stronger and better looking and better for the environment too! Don't settle for imitations, get genuine plastic!!! Never mind that it takes 25k years to decay in a landfill and looks like shit.

- Apple is not really selling that many laptops; never mind that fact that Apple holds the #1, #3, and #5 slots in the top 5 best selling laptops on Amazon

- PC makers have no interest in those awesome margins Apple makes; they want to stick to the cheaper, better plastic stuff and make 2% margins because really, that's where the money is; that HP CEO must be a dumb ass for wanting to divest the biggest PC business in the world

Is that about right?

]{

Edited 2011-08-24 07:34 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Interesting experiment
by tupp on Wed 24th Aug 2011 20:14 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Interesting experiment"
tupp Member since:
2006-11-12

Those respected journalists who are pro-apple are actually pro-apple fanboys who know nothing about anything while you are a manufacturing idiot savant

Those reporters don't have a clue about manufacturing nor what a CNC mill actually is nor about the availability of such machines.

I just did a quick web search and found several CNC brands selling, with no back-order notices. These "journalists" can't even be bothered to do a little light research.

If you doubt me, perhaps you would care to make a little wager on the availability of new CNC mills and/or the availability of CNC houses. We can start at USD $1,000.


Apple is actually an environmentally wasteful manufacturer of crap; never mind what those pinko-commie Greenpeace people say and the unparalleled customer satisfaction rating

Do you have any idea how wasteful and toxic it is to machine large runs from metal rather than using a more efficient method, such as injection molding?

Built into Apple's "unibody" manufacturing process is a lot of milling energy expended on each unit and a lot of metal that has to be recycled, requiring more energy.

Not only does milling big pieces of metal in large scale production-runs consume a lot of electricity, it also uses a lot of toxic machining lubricant, that has to be disposed.

Multiply by 20,000 the energy expended by one of these CNC machines plus its waste toxic lubricant, and you have the environmental damage just in the machining step of the process.

Furthermore, to recycle all of the metal shavings generated, energy has to be expended to gather them and package/handle them. Then, the shavings have to be shipped to a foundry, using even more energy.

At the foundry, a lot of additional energy is required to remelt the shavings and to make new ingots.

In addition, please note that this whole process is pre-consumer -- it is additional to and separate from the process of the consumer recycling their end product.


Plastic is fantastic! Plastic is better, stronger and better looking and better for the environment too! Don't settle for imitations, get genuine plastic!!! Never mind that it takes 25k years to decay in a landfill and looks like shit.

Injection molding plastic requires much less energy than mass machining, and it produces almost no material waste, with no pre-consumer recycling necessary. Most of Apple's competitors use injection molding and fasteners -- much more environmentally friendly.

In regards to plastic looking "like shit," the only time it looks like shit is when it is used on Apple products!


Apple is not really selling that many laptops; never mind that fact that Apple holds the #1, #3, and #5 slots in the top 5 best selling laptops on Amazon

I have no idea what is selling at Amazon, but more non-Apple laptops are sold, compared to the number of Apple laptops sold.


PC makers have no interest in those awesome margins Apple makes; they want to stick to the cheaper, better plastic stuff and make 2% margins because really, that's where the money is; that HP CEO must be a dumb ass for wanting to divest the biggest PC business in the world

I do not pretend to know the interests nor motivations of PC makers, nor would I praise Apple for price gouging.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Interesting experiment
by karunko on Wed 24th Aug 2011 14:41 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Interesting experiment"
karunko Member since:
2008-10-28

PC OEMs are finding it hard to impossible to match the Macbook Air which is flying off the shelves.

I had no idea it could get THAT drafty in them Apple Stores!



RT.

PS: Sorry, couldn't resist.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Interesting experiment
by Windows Sucks on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 23:23 UTC in reply to "RE: Interesting experiment"
Windows Sucks Member since:
2005-11-10

Interesting. All these years later that Apple is the fastest growing computer company in the world and making the most money. This is not a battle, it's a war. MS won the PC battle for 20 years. Blew up just like Android. Now Windows is losing steam, and Apple still has plenty of room to grow.

But while all that was happening Apple came out with the iPod which just like the iPad was over priced device that no one needed but just like a Benz or BMW it's a status symbol that people will pay a premium for just because it's Apple. No one else is gonna match that.

There will be iPads and then everything else like in the music player market.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Interesting experiment
by vitae on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 23:37 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Interesting experiment"
vitae Member since:
2006-02-20

You really do have to credit Apple's marketing machine for this. They have done an amazing job convincing the world that their products are the best because they're the most aesthetic and that people should pay the higher prices for them. All criticism of their litigation obsession aside, they are true masters at selling a product.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Interesting experiment
by zima on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 22:46 UTC in reply to "Interesting experiment"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

...it seems there are tens of millions of people who don't think the iPad is too expensive. We can tell that because Apple has sold over 30 million of them.
Ah, that leaves a mere 6 billion 927 million people...

It turns out there is no such thing as a 'tablet market'.

Just an iPad market.

Let me guess, and there was also only iPod market?...

In order generate the same sort of enthusiastic sales demand that is common place for the iPad you have to sell competing devices at a fifth of the price of an iPad.

Can't wait.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Interesting experiment
by Tony Swash on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 23:16 UTC in reply to "RE: Interesting experiment"
Tony Swash Member since:
2009-08-22


Let me guess, and there was also only iPod market?...


That's correct. If I remember rightly once the iPod took off we were promised an iPod killer pretty much every other month. None succeeded. The iPod's market domination only ended when it was superseded by a new Apple device the iPhone. iPod Touch sales are still very healthy (and are a very useful entry level device to those new to the iOS world). There was never a music player market, just an iPod market and lots of unimportant, low volume, low profit fast forgotten junk music players.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Interesting experiment
by zima on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 23:19 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Interesting experiment"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Don't be so narrow-minded (also: http://www.osnews.com/permalink?486327 )

Edited 2011-08-22 23:20 UTC

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Interesting experiment
by WorknMan on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 01:22 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Interesting experiment"
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

There was never a music player market, just an iPod market and lots of unimportant, low volume, low profit fast forgotten junk music players.


While I agree that the iPod was the king of mp3 players, there were a lot of other players that were superior to it, except that the other players weren't tethered to iTunes, so the tech tards didn't know how to use them. Apparently, drag and drop (or better yet, Media Monkey) is too complicated for people to figure out.

So, while the iPod won the mp3 race, it wasn't because of it's superiority, but because of its ability to cater to the lowest common denominator, just like the iPad does. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but don't pretend these devices are more than what they actually are.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Interesting experiment
by Yoko_T on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 02:05 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Interesting experiment"
Yoko_T Member since:
2011-08-18

"There was never a music player market, just an iPod market and lots of unimportant, low volume, low profit fast forgotten junk music players.


While I agree that the iPod was the king of mp3 players, there were a lot of other players that were superior to it, except that the other players weren't tethered to iTunes, so the tech tards didn't know how to use them. Apparently, drag and drop (or better yet, Media Monkey) is too complicated for people to figure out.

So, while the iPod won the mp3 race, it wasn't because of it's superiority, but because of its ability to cater to the lowest common denominator, just like the iPad does. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but don't pretend these devices are more than what they actually are.
"

Actually both you guys are wrong. The real winner here are companies like Tracfone and Net10 which are selling low cost no contract phones have integrated mp3 players Like the LG 500g which can play back mp3 and other files without forcing you to subscribe to something like Itunes or other such services. All you have to do is plug it into a usb port and copy files over to it like you would to a flash drive.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Interesting experiment
by ccraig13 on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 17:00 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Interesting experiment"
ccraig13 Member since:
2011-05-31

All you have to do is plug it into a usb port and copy files over to it like you would to a flash drive.


You must not have grandparents. ( I apologize if you actually don't )

Seriously though, my parents, grandparents and many others barely understand what the "Desktop" is, let alone how to drag and drop files into a flash drive.

Quick story:
I once had to walk this guy through the steps of emailing us photos, over the phone. I figured as long as he knew where the images where ( he didn't ) that he could simply move them to the desktop temporarily so he wouldn't have to wade through folders trying to find them again. After he finally found the images I told him to drag them to the desktop and his response was, "Whoa, hold on now... what's this 'Desktop' thing?". The whole process took over an hour...

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Interesting experiment
by -pekr- on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 08:58 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Interesting experiment"
-pekr- Member since:
2006-03-28

Tony, that's a little bit exaggerated, no? You might live in US, or maybe other country, where Apple products are very popular. But - the situation might not be the same in EU countries. Here in CZ other brands sold volumes - Cowon (iAudio), Creative, iRiver, to name a few. Owning an iAudio, I would definitely not call it a "fast forgotten junk".

You Apple proponents still have to claim, that anyone is promissing you <your device here> killer in a month, while what others do is - they play a catch-up game. So, enjoy the Apple being the top device innovator, but don't be too nervous, if Apple does not become the world dominator anytime soon :-)

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Interesting experiment
by M.Onty on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 14:43 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Interesting experiment"
M.Onty Member since:
2009-10-23

There was never a music player market, just an iPod market and lots of unimportant, low volume, low profit fast forgotten junk music players.


I'm guessing that's a typo, because otherwise you're suggesting that cassette and CD walkmans didn't happen. Even assuming you're talking mp3 exclusively, try Japan: http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10344536-1.html

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Interesting experiment
by Tony Swash on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 16:44 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Interesting experiment"
Tony Swash Member since:
2009-08-22

"There was never a music player market, just an iPod market and lots of unimportant, low volume, low profit fast forgotten junk music players.


I'm guessing that's a typo, because otherwise you're suggesting that cassette and CD walkmans didn't happen. Even assuming you're talking mp3 exclusively, try Japan: http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10344536-1.html
"


Don't be pedantic and obtuse - we are of course asking about digital music - duh!

In the digital music player and retailing business Apple crushed the opposition and nobody and no device dented Apple's dominance

Reply Score: 2

RE: Interesting experiment
by Moredhas on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 22:47 UTC in reply to "Interesting experiment"
Moredhas Member since:
2008-04-10

There isn't even really an iPad market, there's an Apple market. What people wanted was a tablet Mac, what they got was a giant iPod, and Apple fans still flock to the Apple stores in droves to pick up their giant iPods. Then there's the curious-with-a-credit-card-sans-brain like me who bought an iPad 1 around release; I honestly expected more of it.

Reply Score: 6

RE: Interesting experiment
by Mellin on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 22:57 UTC in reply to "Interesting experiment"
Mellin Member since:
2005-07-06

get your ipad here only 200kr/month for 24 months

Reply Score: 2

RE: Interesting experiment
by transami on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 03:42 UTC in reply to "Interesting experiment"
transami Member since:
2006-02-28

All that it means is that nearly 30 million people have money to blow and all the rest do not. So much for the "rest of us".

Reply Score: 2

RE: Interesting experiment
by unclefester on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 05:41 UTC in reply to "Interesting experiment"
unclefester Member since:
2007-01-13

Wow 30 million! That means >99.5% of people in the world don't own an iPad!

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Interesting experiment
by Tony Swash on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 16:44 UTC in reply to "RE: Interesting experiment"
Tony Swash Member since:
2009-08-22

Wow 30 million! That means >99.5% of people in the world don't own an iPad!



Yet! Apple is only just starting ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE: Interesting experiment
by BallmerKnowsBest on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 18:46 UTC in reply to "Interesting experiment"
BallmerKnowsBest Member since:
2008-06-02

The trouble with that hypothesis is that it seems there are tens of millions of people who don't think the iPad is too expensive. We can tell that because Apple has sold over 30 million of them.


Funny, because I could have sworn that there was another
overly-sanitized, gated community-esque platform which had almost that exact number of users at its peak... before the more open, less-restrictive alternatives caught up and completely annihilated them. Damn it, what were they called again? The name is right on the tip ofmy tongue...

Oh yeah, that was "America Online". By Apple fanboy logic, AOL "beat" the internet because they had a greater number of users than any other single ISP. Remind me, how did that work out for them in the long run?

It turns out there is no such thing as a 'tablet market'.
Just an iPad market.


Yeah, keep telling yourself that. Look at the history of general-purpose computing and you'll see that walled-garden single-vendor systems ALWAYS lose to open, multi-vendor systems. It's only a matter of time before Android does to iOS what the "real" internet did to AOL 10-15 years ago.

Posted from my Xoom.
Hahaha,
BallmerKnowsBest

Reply Score: 3

massive userbase
by project_2501 on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 22:15 UTC
project_2501
Member since:
2006-03-20

... and now HP's Touchpad with WebOS has a massive userbase. Great strategy HP - well done! I knew all along they weren't that stupid - they loss led on the end user device, to then make money on the apps and ecosystem.

Pure genius!

Reply Score: 7

RE: massive userbase
by phoenix on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 23:03 UTC in reply to "massive userbase"
phoenix Member since:
2005-07-11

I was thinking the same thing. Wouldn't it be great if this was just a publicity stunt to get people to buy the TouchPad in droves, to create an instant userbase for it? Then I remembered they cancelled the Pre3 without releasing it.

If they had done this after releasing the Pre3, with the same dramatic price cuts on it, then it would be more plausible.

Alas, I fear this is just product dumping to clear the warehouses before they are shuttered for good. ;)

Perhaps a home-brew ecosystem will grow up around it, now that so many people have them?

Reply Score: 4

You can still find deals...
by umccullough on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 22:21 UTC
umccullough
Member since:
2006-01-26

There are a ton of online retailers who still have them "in stock", but at full price.

I'm willing to bet if you keep an eye on these, they'll drop the price eventually (they'll have to!)

I bet if you call a few of these and ask, they'd be willing to sell them at discounted prices.

FWIW, I just bought two more of the 32gb units at $124/ea from an online retailer a couple hours ago - they ran out minutes after I ordered them.

Furthermore, HP is still receiving shipments back from retailers, and selling them as stock arrives.

Reply Score: 4

No, it isn't.
by leos on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 22:52 UTC
leos
Member since:
2005-09-21

The TouchPad's $99 price is a sign of things to come for the tablet market.

Yeah sure. The future of the tablet market is companies rushing to sell top notch hardware at a huge loss. By that brilliant reasoning the future of the car market is also Porsches for $5000. Just think of how many they could sell!

By the way, I bought a touchpad last night on impulse. Even if Android is never ported, for $100 it'll be a nice web browsing machine for a year and then a nice platform for some sort of tech project. Can't go wrong.

Reply Score: 3

RE: No, it isn't.
by Thom_Holwerda on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 22:53 UTC in reply to "No, it isn't."
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

The future of the tablet market is companies rushing to sell top notch hardware at a huge loss.


No, the future of the tablet market is cheaper tablets.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: No, it isn't.
by leos on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 23:08 UTC in reply to "RE: No, it isn't."
leos Member since:
2005-09-21

"The future of the tablet market is companies rushing to sell top notch hardware at a huge loss.


No, the future of the tablet market is cheaper tablets.
"

Nope. You can already get tablets for close to $100, and the realities of hardware costs means they are total crap. Resistive touch screens, completely out of date processors, insufficient ram, and a hastily slapped on Android that's likely out of date and buggy.

You're dreaming if you think we're ever going to get a tablet that can compete with iPad/Xoom/Galaxy class products for $100.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: No, it isn't.
by Thom_Holwerda on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 23:09 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: No, it isn't."
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

You're dreaming if you think we're ever going to get a tablet that can compete with iPad/Xoom/Galaxy class products for $100.


Who said anything about 100?

I said cheaper. I'm thinking 200-300.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: No, it isn't.
by leos on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 23:14 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: No, it isn't."
leos Member since:
2005-09-21

Who said anything about 100?

I said cheaper. I'm thinking 200-300.


So your argument doesn't hold up. You said:
This price drop has demonstrated that there is a huge market for cheap tablets


But it hasn't. The HP Touchpad has demonstrated that there's a huge market for a $500 tablet sold for $100. Just like there's a huge market for anything sold way below market value. There is absolutely zero indication that there is a huge market for cheap tablets that are built to that cheap price. Big difference.

Edited 2011-08-22 23:15 UTC

Reply Score: 6

RE[5]: No, it isn't.
by JAlexoid on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 01:08 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: No, it isn't."
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

Actually there is a lot of space where the price of the device can be reduced. $100 manufacturing cost is not that far off, considering that cheaper components can be used. Cheaper != lower quality, but rather not the latest generation.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: No, it isn't.
by BallmerKnowsBest on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 19:00 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: No, it isn't."
BallmerKnowsBest Member since:
2008-06-02

Actually there is a lot of space where the price of the device can be reduced. $100 manufacturing cost is not that far off, considering that cheaper components can be used. Cheaper != lower quality, but rather not the latest generation.


That makes sense... if you've never heard of concepts like "economies of scale" and assume that component prices will never drop.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: No, it isn't.
by JAlexoid on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 22:08 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: No, it isn't."
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

Apple's iPad2 costs look to be the same as iPad's in 2010. And Apple is the biggest consumer, so they benefit the most. iPad1's component costs are about $200 at the moment, but those are Apple's costs...

PS: Did you try to insult me? Or maybe you know the actual costs of components to manufacturers? How many contacts at Foxconn do you have?

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: No, it isn't.
by kristoph on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 02:56 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: No, it isn't."
kristoph Member since:
2006-01-01

I see advertising for a $200 tabled on OSNews. Buy one and try it.

I have a g-Slate here for development. I don't actually know what it costs (because I got it for free at Google event) but it's really not in the same class as an iPad 2.

The hardware is reasonable if a bit cheap feeling (also I don't like the form factor but that could be me) and the stereoscopic cameras are cool (and take much better stills then my iPad 2) but the software is really immature.

I mean even YouTube, which is a Google app, is very unstable, and there are no apps to speak of that look even half decent on the thing.

Possibly, when the OS and the apps mature and there are more apps in the Market then Android on a tablet will be competitive but we're not there yet and pricing is not the issue.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: No, it isn't.
by ebasconp on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 23:17 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: No, it isn't."
ebasconp Member since:
2006-05-09

Why not?

Think on a company promoting its new ecosystem; the company gives away high-end devices for free (or almost free) and profits by the whole ecosystem (apps, ad-based free apps, accesories, etc.).

In fact, because of what happened this weekend with webOS, the platform will be alive for a long long time and a lot of developers (someones enthusiastic, other ones wishing earn money) will continue writing apps for it.

Edited 2011-08-22 23:21 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: No, it isn't.
by leos on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 23:27 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: No, it isn't."
leos Member since:
2005-09-21

Why not?

Think on a company promoting its new ecosystem; the company gives away high-end devices for free (or almost free) and profits by the whole ecosystem (apps, ad-based free apps, accesories, etc.).


Possible, but highly unlikely. To create this kind of stir (a $400-$500 device for $100) a company would be losing quite a lot of money on every device. So first they need deep pockets. Then they need to make that money back, in an environment of $1 apps.. After having my iPhone for a year I've spent maybe $100-$150 on apps for it and I have quite a lot compared to most people. Then consider that this kind of hardware you will likely want to get a newer model in 2-3 years... I don't think it would be profitable.

In fact, because of what happened this weekend with webOS, the platform will be alive for a long long time and a lot of developers (someones enthusiastic, other ones wishing earn money) will continue writing apps for it.


I doubt there will be many new apps. The platform is still dead. Hard to justify starting development now for a dead platform. That's a very short time window to make back your development costs, when you know all the users of the platform you will ever have are already out there. Not sure how many touchpads there are in total now but it's not huge.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: No, it isn't.
by umccullough on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 23:35 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: No, it isn't."
umccullough Member since:
2006-01-26

Not sure how many touchpads there are in total now but it's not huge.


Well, Touchpads and phones (Pre, Pre2, Pixi, etc.)

I'd seen reports that over 350k touchpads were sold overnight on Friday - we know Best Buy had 270k of them that they wanted to dump - so who knows how many HP created initially, a million? 5 million?

Also, HP has stated that they won't simply drop support for WebOS. I suspect at the least, they'll sell it to someone who wants to enter this market (or is in the market, and wants a unique edge... HTC or maybe Samsung?)

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: No, it isn't.
by leos on Mon 22nd Aug 2011 23:45 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: No, it isn't."
leos Member since:
2005-09-21

Also, HP has stated that they won't simply drop support for WebOS. I suspect at the least, they'll sell it to someone who wants to enter this market (or is in the market, and wants a unique edge... HTC or maybe Samsung?)


That'd be interesting. You'd think they'd want to do more than shelve it after all their investment.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: No, it isn't.
by Neolander on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 03:49 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: No, it isn't."
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

Well, I say yes. Early PCs costed thousands of $, modern ones cost a few hundreds. Price has dropped by an order of magnitude before stabilizing. Same drop for cellphones and DAPs. And there's nothing special about tablet hardware (save for being magical, of course). So in 10 or 20 years, $100 or less capacitive tablets that do *much* more than the current ones should be commonplace.

If tablets follow the competitive evolution of other digital hardware, that is. They could also fall under the control of a monopoly and keep their high price as any price drop is turned into profit. Just like everyone enjoys Windows' pricing today.

Edited 2011-08-23 03:59 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: No, it isn't.
by unclefester on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 05:46 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: No, it isn't."
unclefester Member since:
2007-01-13

So in 10 or 20 years, $100 or less capacitive tablets that do *much* more than the current ones should be commonplace.


10-20 years? More like 2-3 years.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: No, it isn't.
by Neolander on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 05:50 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: No, it isn't."
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

Riskier bet ;) Capacitive phones have been around since more than 3 years and they've not yet dropped in price by an order of magnitude.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: No, it isn't.
by unclefester on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 07:32 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: No, it isn't."
unclefester Member since:
2007-01-13

Yes they have,

The Huawei Ideos has a capacitative screen. It sells for $80 unlocked in Africa.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: No, it isn't.
by Neolander on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 08:02 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: No, it isn't."
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

I stand corrected then ;) If the hardware is ready and it's only about fixing the software, 2-3 years could indeed be a good estimate.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: No, it isn't.
by kristoph on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 05:54 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: No, it isn't."
kristoph Member since:
2006-01-01

You can get a $100 tablet today. In 10 or 20 years time you'll still be able to buy a $100 tablet, and a $500 tablet which will be better (and more magical).

Anyway this means nothing.

The iPhone is the most popular smart phone in the US ( actually it holds both the #1 and #2 spots, it's that magical ;-) but it only has 20% of the US market after 4 years on the market.

The iPod has been around for 10 years, it still commands 65% of the music player market.

Both are subject to the same economic impact on technology.

]{

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: No, it isn't.
by Neolander on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 06:05 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: No, it isn't."
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

You can get a $100 tablet today. In 10 or 20 years time you'll still be able to buy a $100 tablet, and a $500 tablet which will be better (and more magical).

There's a huge difference. Today's $100 tablets are piece of junk. Tomorrow's $100 tablets will be good enough. At which point the $500 tablet market will become a niche, just like $4000 laptops are a niche nowadays.

The iPhone is the most popular smart phone in the US ( actually it holds both the #1 and #2 spots, it's that magical ;-) but it only has 20% of the US market after 4 years on the market.

4 year is not maturity, even for computers. Microcomputers have appeared in the late 70s, and that market has only reached the stable equilibrium that we know well in the early 90s. I think we are still up for some surprises in the smartphone world.

The iPod has been around for 10 years, it still commands 65% of the music player market.

Because Apple have been clever and have made cheap iPods too ;)

Both are subject to the same economic impact on technology.

Well, my own interpretation's above. In the end, your guess is as good as mine, I guess, but I'm ready to bet ;)

Edited 2011-08-23 06:06 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: No, it isn't.
by kristoph on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 14:53 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: No, it isn't."
kristoph Member since:
2006-01-01

There's a huge difference. Today's $100 tablets are piece of junk. Tomorrow's $100 tablets will be good enough. At which point the $500 tablet market will become a niche, just like $4000 laptops are a niche nowadays.


Apple makes the best selling laptops and their cheapest laptop is twice this price so this theory is clearly not valid.

http://amzn.to/mPtlJ4

Because Apple have been clever and have made cheap iPods too ;)


There are mp3 players at a fraction of the cost of the cheapest iPod and they do exactly the same thing as the iPod but the iPod still dominates.

http://amzn.to/qgqX7X

Notice that the best selling mp3 player is actually USD 229 a whopping 11 times a competing player also on the top 10.

So this is a nice theory but the market reality just does not back it up.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: No, it isn't.
by Neolander on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 15:06 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: No, it isn't."
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

Apple makes the best selling laptops and their cheapest laptop is twice this price so this theory is clearly not valid.

http://amzn.to/mPtlJ4

Apple's 13-inch macbook pro sells best because it's the cheapest OSX-running laptop that isn't a piece of junk. As it happens people need OS X specifically for some tasks like media editing (legacy reasons play a big part there) or iOS development (iOS currently playing a big part in the mobile ecosystem).

So basically, the main reasons to buy a mac instead of an equivalent PC are the abusive OS X and iOS SDK licensing terms. Does not exactly say much about their chances to compete in a free market.

There are mp3 players at a fraction of the cost of the cheapest iPod and they do exactly the same thing as the iPod but the iPod still dominates.

http://amzn.to/qgqX7X

Notice that the best selling mp3 player is actually USD 229 a whopping 11 times a competing player also on the top 10.

As said elsewhere, I think it was in this thread, iPod sales are in steady decline in favor of the cheap mp3 players bundled in cellphones.

So this is a nice theory but the market reality just does not back it up.

Well, it goes to show that stuff like monopolies and well-worded licensing terms can help the most expensive stuff to stay alive.

Like Windows.

Edited 2011-08-23 15:08 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: No, it isn't.
by Joy_Division_Lives! on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 14:33 UTC in reply to "RE: No, it isn't."
Joy_Division_Lives! Member since:
2011-07-29

The future of the tablet market is companies rushing to sell top notch hardware at a huge loss....

No, the future of the tablet market is cheaper tablets.


The only reason that people are buying the Touchpad is that they are getting a tablet that cost $324.00 to manufacture at $99.00.

http://www.informationweek.com/news/personal-tech/tablets/231001092

Would these same people buy a tablet whose parts and quality were around $99.00? And...I doubt manufacturers are willing to take a $225.00 + loss per unit on their tablets.

If I was Samsung, RIM or any other tablet manufacturer (Apple excluded, of course), this would depress the hell out of me. It's the "champagne tastes, beer wallet" syndrome at play. In addition, HP just impacted their sales for this Q, at the very least.

There is no tablet market...just an iPad market.

Edited 2011-08-23 14:37 UTC

Reply Score: 1

Speaking of cheaper tablets ...
by WorknMan on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 01:25 UTC
WorknMan
Member since:
2005-11-13

Speaking of cheaper tablets, Amazon (at least in the US) just knocked the price of the Asus Transformer down to $350 ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE: Speaking of cheaper tablets ...
by suryad on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 02:13 UTC in reply to "Speaking of cheaper tablets ..."
suryad Member since:
2005-07-09

That is awesome news but that could probably because the second version of the Transformer with the quad core Tegra 3 could possibly be on its way? ;) I would love to have me a piece of that!

Reply Score: 2

how can 500$ be too much?
by iliks on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 02:49 UTC
iliks
Member since:
2008-07-08

That's cheap, really, for what the iPad is.

Reply Score: 2

RE: how can 500$ be too much?
by ebasconp on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 03:47 UTC in reply to "how can 500$ be too much? "
ebasconp Member since:
2006-05-09

come on! the ipad is a nice but too expensive "toy"... i'm a programmer and the ipad is too restrictive to let me perform my activities smoothly (launch an IDE, compile, test, running one or more virtual machines, etc.).

I know, I know, it is nice to use one of them, but, apart of the hedonist pleasure using it (though I find its keyboard quite disgusting); I think it is a weaker machine than almost all current laptops.

Edited 2011-08-23 03:50 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: how can 500$ be too much?
by kristoph on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 05:24 UTC in reply to "RE: how can 500$ be too much? "
kristoph Member since:
2006-01-01

I am also a 'programmer' and my development environment of choice is 8 core XEON with 10 gb of ram, a pair of ssd's, and 2 27" monitors but, you know, so what.

The average person is not a programmer. In truth the 'average person' really only uses a computer to do email, browse, and watch the occasional movie or tv show and the iPad is an awesome replacement for that (and you don't need to worry about viruses or defraging and other similar stuff).

Reply Score: 4

ebasconp Member since:
2006-05-09

Sorry, you are right! My comment above seemed too arrogant.

Reply Score: 2

Bummer
by Drunkula on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 14:36 UTC
Drunkula
Member since:
2009-09-03

Sadly I didn't hear of the fire-sale prices until Monday. Apparently these things sold out on Saturday. I may have to contact my old room mate who works for HP to see if he has any to offer. $99 would have been incredibly hard to pass up.

Reply Score: 1

The slickdeals train wreck on Monday
by mlankton on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 14:46 UTC
mlankton
Member since:
2009-06-11

There is a retired thread on slickdeals from the weekend that made it to 2500+ pages. That has to be some kind of record.

I spent about 4 hours following this thread. By the time you finished reading one page there were 4 more pages in the thread. I've never seen anything like it, it was insanity.

I managed to get a 16gb for $99 from TigerDirect thanks to that thread. Every time the thread got updated with an in stock source, the 20000 people reading the thread at that moment crashed the source's servers, desperately trying to snag one. It really was legendary. When I got shipped a tracking number I was ecstatic, because it just didn't seem like there was going to be any way to get one.

I have used a Pre since Jan. 2010. webOS, like many defunct systems before it, truly was a superior interface. For $99 I don't even care that it's a dead end. It'll be a great web/email/fb/twitter machine for a couple years, more than worth the $99. Maybe TouchDroid will materialize, maybe not. This might make me hang on to my Pre for a while longer instead of upgrading to the next iPhone though.

Long live webOS. Rest in peace.

Reply Score: 1

Darn again
by jefro on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 16:08 UTC
jefro
Member since:
2007-04-13

I spent a lot of time and some few long distance calls to find out HP servers and infrastructure stinks. Every touchpad in 500 miles from me was sold out by noon. HP web site took my credit card and up to the point of shipping and puked.

They claim they will get back in 48 hours so I might end up with 50 or none.

Why does everyone want an unloved tablet?

Reply Score: 1

This is a late tablet
by Tony Swash on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 21:46 UTC
Tony Swash
Member since:
2009-08-22

A customer enters a Best Buy shop.

Mr. Praline: 'Ello, I wish to register a complaint.

(The owner does not respond.)

Mr. Praline: 'Ello, Miss?

Owner: What do you mean "miss"?

Mr. Praline: I'm sorry, I have a cold. I wish to make a complaint!

Owner: We're closin' for lunch.

Mr. Praline: Never mind that, my lad. I wish to complain about this HP Touchpad what I purchased not half an hour ago from this very boutique.

Owner: Oh yes, the, uh, the webOS HP Touchpad…What's,uh...What's wrong with it?

Mr. Praline: I'll tell you what's wrong with it, my lad. 'it's dead, that's what's wrong with it!

Owner: No, no, 'e's uh,…it's resting.

Mr. Praline: Look, matey, I know a dead tablet when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.

Owner: No no it's not dead, it's, it's restin'! Remarkable tablet, the HP Touchpad, idn'it, ay? Beautiful interface!

Mr. Praline: The interface don't enter into it. It's stone dead.

Owner: Nononono, no, no! 'it's resting!

Mr. Praline: All right then, if it's restin', I'll wake him up! (shouting at the screen) 'Ello, Mister webOS! I've got a lovely app for you if you ?show...

owner hits the tablet)

Owner: There, it moved!

Mr. Praline: No, he didn't, that was you hitting it!

Owner: I never!!

Mr. Praline: Yes, you did!

Owner: I never, never did anything...

Mr. Praline: (yelling and hitting the tablet repeatedly) 'ELLO Touchpad!!!!! Testing! Testing! Testing! Testing! This is your nine o'clock alarm call! (Takes tablet out of the case and thumps it on the counter. Throws it up in the air and watches it plummet to the floor.)

Mr. Praline: Now that's what I call a dead tablet.

Owner: No, no.....No, it's stunned!

Mr. Praline: STUNNED?!?

Owner: Yeah! You stunned it, just as he was wakin' up! Touchpads stun easily, major.

Mr. Praline: Um...now look...now look, mate, I've definitely 'ad enough of this. That tablet is definitely deceased, and when I purchased it not 'alf an hour ?ago, you assured me that its total lack of movement was due to it bein' tired and shagged out following a prolonged reboot.

Owner: Well, he's...he's, ah...probably pining for Palm.

Mr. Praline: PININ' for the PALM?!?!?!? What kind of talk is that?, look, why did he fall flat on his back the moment I got 'im home?

Owner: The Touchpad prefers keepin' on it's back! Remarkable tablet, id'nit, squire? Lovely interface!

Reply Score: 2

RE: This is a late tablet
by karunko on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 22:21 UTC in reply to "This is a late tablet"
karunko Member since:
2008-10-28

A customer enters a Best Buy shop.

Mr. Praline: 'Ello, I wish to register a complaint.

(The owner does not respond.)

Mr. Praline: 'Ello, Miss?

Owner: What do you mean "miss"?


Not to be picky, but "owner" is probably not the right noun to use here. In fact I seriously doubt the "owner" of Best Buy would be sitting behind the counter! *grin*

Also: should we insert the customary "you're holding it wrong" joke to balance things out?

That said, it's good to see you prefer to come up with drivel like this rather than explain why Apple's market "dominance" is good for the consumers but, hey, if that makes you happy...


RT.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: This is a late tablet
by Tony Swash on Tue 23rd Aug 2011 23:08 UTC in reply to "RE: This is a late tablet"
Tony Swash Member since:
2009-08-22

"A customer enters a Best Buy shop.

Mr. Praline: 'Ello, I wish to register a complaint.

(The owner does not respond.)

Mr. Praline: 'Ello, Miss?

Owner: What do you mean "miss"?


Not to be picky, but "owner" is probably not the right noun to use here. In fact I seriously doubt the "owner" of Best Buy would be sitting behind the counter! *grin*

Also: should we insert the customary "you're holding it wrong" joke to balance things out?

That said, it's good to see you prefer to come up with drivel like this rather than explain why Apple's market "dominance" is good for the consumers but, hey, if that makes you happy...


RT.
"

Your humour bypass worked out OK I see and the pedantic implant seems to be functioning well ;)

Apple's 'market dominance' is the result of the consumer deciding that Apple products are better than competing products. Thus for consumers it's a good thing. They get to buy product they prefer.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: This is a late tablet
by Neolander on Wed 24th Aug 2011 07:18 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: This is a late tablet"
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

Apple's 'market dominance' is the result of the consumer deciding that Apple products are better than competing products. Thus for consumers it's a good thing. They get to buy product they prefer.

Well, to invoke a discussion I had with MOS6510 recently...

If that's so clear-cut, why do Apple sue competitors instead of leaving them doing business ?

Liebherr and Miele respectively make the best fridges and washing machines in the high-end market, and are well-known for that. Yet they have never sued Samsung.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: This is a late tablet
by Tony Swash on Wed 24th Aug 2011 10:16 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: This is a late tablet"
Tony Swash Member since:
2009-08-22

"Apple's 'market dominance' is the result of the consumer deciding that Apple products are better than competing products. Thus for consumers it's a good thing. They get to buy product they prefer.

Well, to invoke a discussion I had with MOS6510 recently...

If that's so clear-cut, why do Apple sue competitors instead of leaving them doing business ?

Liebherr and Miele respectively make the best fridges and washing machines in the high-end market, and are well-known for that. Yet they have never sued Samsung.
"

Apple may be suing it's competitors but to the best of my knowledge those legal actions have not yet actually constrained the supply of any competing product, so as of today consumers have in reality a free choice as to which products to buy.

It seems therefore to me that there are two possible hypothesis here:

Either

a) Apple products are so very popular with consumers because they do meet/satisfy the needs and requirements of those consumers better than competing products

or

b) Apple products are so very popular with consumers even though they do not meet/satisfy the needs and requirements of those consumers because of other factors unrelated to the nature of the products themselves such as advertising, fashion, fad, etc

I find (b) not only inherently implausible but frankly ludicrous.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: This is a late tablet
by Neolander on Wed 24th Aug 2011 10:58 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: This is a late tablet"
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

You've just handwaved my question away. I'm not satisfied.

If Apple products are so successful, why do they sue ? Why do they feel threatened ?

Do they see a trend towards competing devices winning, even though they had the best stuff hands down in the beginning ? Do they feel like they're reaching the limits of their innovation capacity ?

Or maybe something else totally different ?

Edited 2011-08-24 11:03 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: This is a late tablet
by karunko on Wed 24th Aug 2011 14:55 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: This is a late tablet"
karunko Member since:
2008-10-28

Your humour bypass worked out OK I see and the pedantic implant seems to be functioning well ;)

If yours was an attempt at humour then it was very lame and I recommend you stick to your "straight off the press release" posts you're so much better at.

Apple's 'market dominance' is the result of the consumer deciding that Apple products are better than competing products. Thus for consumers it's a good thing. They get to buy product they prefer.

Not only is debatable whether there's any actual dominance at all, you're still not explaining why this is a good thing for me as a consumer: over the years I've bought 3 Mac minis, 1 Mac Pro, several iPods and 1 iPhone but I still can't find a reason to get all excited about Apple's "dominance" -- not to mention that Apple's behaviour has been pissing me off for quite some time now.


RT.

Reply Score: 1

Comment by Luminair
by Luminair on Wed 24th Aug 2011 05:18 UTC
Luminair
Member since:
2007-03-30

I like your name

edit: son of a bitch, that deleted spammer had an awesome name. now its lost like tears in rain.

Edited 2011-08-24 05:19 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Friends and family ...
by gehersh on Wed 24th Aug 2011 22:09 UTC
gehersh
Member since:
2006-01-03

Gosh, do I love these "Friends and family" postings. Here are a couple I saw and really liked.

1. "All my friends and family have Android phones. I don't understand why bother publishing anything about iPhone".

2. "None of my friends have the MacBook Air. No one wants to pay the premium for laptop being `thin and light'. I don't understand what's this all about those MacBook Air."

Seems like in all the cases we have with unfortunate choice of friends and disfunctional family.

Reply Score: 1