Linked by Moochman on Fri 7th Oct 2011 20:50 UTC
Java In the midst of the dual events Oracle OpenWorld and JavaOne (overshadowed, of course, by the iPhone event) Oracle took a number of steps that show that they still care about making a go of Java on the desktop.
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Brilliant...
by thavith_osn on Fri 7th Oct 2011 23:25 UTC
thavith_osn
Member since:
2005-07-11

I was hoping that Oracle would pick up the baton and run with Java on OS X.

I was developing a Java app as a web application maybe 2 years ago, but found hosting it was tricky. This isn't a problem for me now, so I might go back to using Java, both server and client!

I'll be interested in JavaFX too, I've only played with that a little.

Anyway, good news...

Reply Score: 3

App Store is the secret.
by sergio on Sat 8th Oct 2011 03:03 UTC
sergio
Member since:
2005-07-06

Back in the day, Java was a first class citizen in Mac OS X... now It's an illegal alien.

Java applications are forbidden in the App Store. If Oracle is serious about Desktop Java, They must change that before anything else.

Reply Score: 2

RE: App Store is the secret.
by Rahul on Sat 8th Oct 2011 03:07 UTC in reply to "App Store is the secret."
Rahul Member since:
2005-07-06

They might work on it but they don't need to do it before anything else and it is unlikely to be a very huge priority.

Reply Score: 2

RE: App Store is the secret.
by moondevil on Sat 8th Oct 2011 07:07 UTC in reply to "App Store is the secret."
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

I fear that the only successful desktop Java is going to be Android.

Most of the desktop applications developed in Java tend to be enterprise ones.

JavaFX is going to do nothing to change that as Oracle is not releasing it to all major platforms at the same time, and it forces you to use different code paths on each platform.

EDIT: Typo

Edited 2011-10-08 07:08 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: App Store is the secret.
by Moochman on Sat 8th Oct 2011 11:00 UTC in reply to "RE: App Store is the secret."
Moochman Member since:
2005-07-06

I don't know what you're talking about with the different code paths, but regarding release dates, they have said they plan to release for all three major platforms simultaneously in the future. At the very latest this will be the case with the release of Java SE 8.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: App Store is the secret.
by moondevil on Sat 8th Oct 2011 19:27 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: App Store is the secret."
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

I don't know what you're talking about with the different code paths, but regarding release dates, they have said they plan to release for all three major platforms simultaneously in the future. At the very latest this will be the case with the release of Java SE 8.


You can read about it here:

http://weblogs.java.net/blog/randahl/archive/2011/10/05/javafx-20-b...

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: App Store is the secret.
by Moochman on Sun 9th Oct 2011 08:28 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: App Store is the secret."
Moochman Member since:
2005-07-06

Hmm, hopefully when they release the final Mac version these discrepancies will be gone...

Reply Score: 2

Comment by ilovebeer
by ilovebeer on Sat 8th Oct 2011 09:26 UTC
ilovebeer
Member since:
2011-08-08

Java desktop? Not happening and no thanks if it did.

Reply Score: 0

Why is Java 'wrong' on the desktop?
by MacMan on Sat 8th Oct 2011 13:11 UTC
MacMan
Member since:
2006-11-19

The vast majority of Windows apps are written with .Net, which is basically the same type of system as Java (memory managed byte code runs in a jit'ed env).

So, why is .Net great for desktop apps, but Java is considered bad?

Personally, the app I use 90% of the time is Eclipse (for C++/Python/Fortran) and I think its fantastic.

Reply Score: 0

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Because Java is a good two or three release cycles behind .NET

Reply Score: 0

ggeldenhuys Member since:
2006-11-13

And you comment is supposed to tell us what exactly?

Reply Score: 2

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

That Java is a good two or three release cycles behind C# and .NET .

I'm sorry, I didn't know this was still disputed in 2011. Sun lost this battle long, long ago.

There's a hell of a lot more forward momentum in .NET than there is in the JVM.

One day you'll get closures. One day. Keep telling yourselves that.

Reply Score: 2

moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

Regardless of Java being behind C#, the truth is that most enterprise applications are still Java based.

Sure there are lots of .Net applications being done on the enterprise, but if you go for the Fortune 500 companies with multi-site deployments across the globe, then everything is Java.

Edited 2011-10-09 07:27 UTC

Reply Score: 4

shotsman Member since:
2005-07-22

So?
I still don't get your point.
Does it realy matter what release cycles Java and .Net are on?

It might matter if Microsoft released versions of .Net to run on platforms other than Windows but as they don't, what .NET does or does not do is totally irrelevant to many of us who develop for platforms other than Windows.

Reply Score: 7

RareBreed Member since:
2011-10-10

Don't be so sure that .Net and C# are the rapidly growing languages and platform of choice. According to TIOBE, Java is still the #1 language (though staying flat). Also, just like C# is just one language in the .NET family, the JVM has become much like the .Net CLR (and all the more so now that JDK 7 has added bytecode improvements for dynamic languages).

Also, O'Reilly has been seeing a decline in sales of C# books, while Java has been increasing:

http://radar.oreilly.com/upload/2011/02/AllYearsT20Langs.jpg

and on StackOverflow, although C# has a greater percentage overall of posts, it has been falling rapidly, and Java is on the verge of catching up again:

http://hewgill.com/~greg/stackoverflow/stack_overflow/tags/


Also while I would agree that Java the language has a stale adoption rate, the new JVM languages are not. You say that Java doesn't have closures yet, but this was postponed to be included in Java 8. Also Scala and Clojure already have them.

You mention your host platform. Windows, which is really the only OS in town to support .Net (I'm not counting Mono now that they lost their paid devs), is far from the fastest growing platform. Microsoft's shares are slowly getting eaten up by the Mac OS on the desktop, and Windows Mobile is a distant 5th in the handheld market (and non-existent in virtually any other embedded market).

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9219811/Android_is_smartphon...

Awhile back ago, I decided to make a choice on whether to support the JVM or .Net, and came to the conclusion that the .Net platform was going to have a more niche market than JVM based languages.

Reply Score: 1

Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

Have you considered the possibility that the reason why an application written in Microsoft's dotNet platform is acceptable on a Microsoft Windows operating stystem and an application written in Sun/Oracle's Java Platform is not acceptable on a Microsoft Windows operating system may have less to do with the versions of the platforms and more to do with the integration of the platform on the operating system?

Reply Score: 2

dsmogor Member since:
2005-09-01

May or may not. There are xplatform GUI frameworks that did much better than java on windows. QT for example.
Heck, even IBM SWT is more successful than native java Swing.
The problem with java was lack of competences/care in Sun as seemingly all of their GUI oriented efforts (Swing, Net terminals, CDE, J2ME) have eventually failed, J2ME being the most striking example of dropping the ball.

Reply Score: 2

kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

So?
I still don't get your point.
Does it realy matter what release cycles Java and .Net are on?

It might matter if Microsoft released versions of .Net to run on platforms other than Windows but as they don't, what .NET does or does not do is totally irrelevant to many of us who develop for platforms other than Windows.


When the poster was referring to release cycles I think what they mean is the features that are in appearing in Java existed in .NET either right from the start or quickly added within a few release cycles.

With that being said the big question is whether these features really offset the reality that .NET is a Windows only technology where as Java is multi-platform - in the enterprise world they'll evaluate the two platforms and what they offer but what they sacrifice is it worth it? if .NET was 100% multi-platform and feature complete on all platform supported then the original poster would have a point but until that day occurs, for many people that sacrifice isn't worth it given the lock in one ultimately gets with .NET.

Reply Score: 3

BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

Because Visual Studio is so far and above any Java IDE that Java can't compete, not to mention that .net inherited all the millions of VB developers.

Reply Score: 1

ggeldenhuys Member since:
2006-11-13

Because Visual Studio is so far and above any Java IDE that Java can't compete,

Have you every tried IntelliJ IDEA? That's the only IDE that got me really excited about programming again.

Reply Score: 3

lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Have you tried ReSharper by the same company?

It comes down to personal preference ... but You have to pay for IntelliJ unless you are doing an Opensource project ... you don't for Visual Studio and SQL Express editions, which are tbh are good enough for quite a few smaller project (less than a Month).

Edited 2011-10-09 11:27 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Moochman Member since:
2005-07-06

I've used both extensively, and can honestly say that this kind of hyperbole is just a lot of hot air. While it's true that the GUI design tools are better than what's available for Java, when it comes to pure code editing and navigation I find the Java-based IDEs to be nicer. Eclipse and NetBeans at the least equal VS in this regard, while IntelliJ pretty much beats it.

Reply Score: 2

BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

I've used both extensively, and can honestly say that this kind of hyperbole is just a lot of hot air. While it's true that the GUI design tools are better than what's available for Java, when it comes to pure code editing and navigation I find the Java-based IDEs to be nicer. Eclipse and NetBeans at the least equal VS in this regard, while IntelliJ pretty much beats it.


Well, the "I finds" are all the difference, you may find Eclipse and NetBeans to be better, but I disagree. It's called an opinion, one that millions of other people seem to agree with, as Visual Studio, .net and it's relatives are the most used Development environment in the business world. That's not hyperbole, or hot air, it's just fact.

Edited 2011-10-08 22:23 UTC

Reply Score: 0

Matzon Member since:
2005-07-06

<That's not hyperbole, or hot air, it's just fact. >
source?

Edited 2011-10-08 22:45 UTC

Reply Score: 3

BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

I always heard that, but after doing some googling, I can't find any source that separates desktop app development from server, so might just be I'm talking out of my ass, but I can't tell.

It seems that in the total enterprise space, c is still king, followed by Java, then C#, but it's all software categories, so I guess I'll be quiet now.

Reply Score: 3

Moochman Member since:
2005-07-06

That's fact eh?

I guess that's why the Java language currently has around 19% popularity while C# has around 7% and VB around 4%.

http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

Reply Score: 4

Story is missing the FUD
by FreeGamer on Sat 8th Oct 2011 14:40 UTC
FreeGamer
Member since:
2007-04-13

After the MySQL.com hacking story, with the ludicrous FUD about Java and security (paraphrased: "Oracle bought^H^H^H^H^H^H^H owns Java, Oracle owns MySQL[.com], ergo Java has security issues"), I'm surprised you didn't also lace this story with a sprinkle of selectively-quoted fear-by-association.

I would have aired my disgust on that story but commenting is now locked after 5 days. What's up with that? I mean, there's often only a few stories every 5 days, why archive/lockdown stuff that is still on the frontpage?

Edited 2011-10-08 14:40 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE: Story is missing the FUD
by adinas on Sat 8th Oct 2011 17:38 UTC in reply to "Story is missing the FUD"
adinas Member since:
2005-08-17

Agreed, blocking commenting after 5 days is stupid. Someone once replied to a comment of mine and I couldn't reply back cuz it got locked in between. STUPID.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Story is missing the FUD
by Moochman on Sat 8th Oct 2011 17:44 UTC in reply to "Story is missing the FUD"
Moochman Member since:
2005-07-06

Well, Thom didn't post this story, I did. ;)

EDIT: Or rather, Thom posted it in unmodified form... Anyway I just checked out the MySQL story and it seemed like it was that quoted analyst slinging the FUD more than Thom himself...

Edited 2011-10-08 17:47 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Story is missing the FUD
by FreeGamer on Mon 10th Oct 2011 13:25 UTC in reply to "RE: Story is missing the FUD"
FreeGamer Member since:
2007-04-13

Hence I said, "Selectively quoted."

I'm sure you can find some "analyst" slating any technology. There's plenty of ridiculous content on the Internet. It was Thom's decision to include the quote.

Reply Score: 2

Recently learned Java
by theosib on Sat 8th Oct 2011 23:40 UTC
theosib
Member since:
2006-03-02

For a project at work, Java was one of a number of possible options for making an app portable across Linux, Windows, and Mac. I considered wxWidgets and Qt, for instance. In the end, I decided that the hassle of ensuring the client had the JVM was less than the hassle of porting the program to 3 platforms. I'm sure others will disagree.

Anyhow, Java's kindof a crufty language. It's not very orthogonal, lacks fairly basic features had by other OO languages, and has basically taken a surprsing amount of time to learn. However Swing isn't half bad. And there's a huge community, so it's easy to ask questions when I run into a snag. (yay, stackoverflow.com).

I'm kinda hoping that Oracle doesn't drop the ball and continues to support Java. It would be REALLY nice if Apple's app store accepted Java apps, but that'll never happen.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Recently learned Java
by bnolsen on Sun 9th Oct 2011 03:25 UTC in reply to "Recently learned Java"
bnolsen Member since:
2006-01-06

You're going to have a problem finding an audience on the unix side. For desktop its never taken off and like me, many linux users make very certain no JVM is ever installed on their machine.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Recently learned Java
by theosib on Sun 9th Oct 2011 04:24 UTC in reply to "RE: Recently learned Java"
theosib Member since:
2006-03-02

Fortunately, in this case, it's a captive audience. They're enterprise customers who are mostly using machines we give them.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Recently learned Java
by moondevil on Sun 9th Oct 2011 07:24 UTC in reply to "RE: Recently learned Java"
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

Well on the enterprise is a different story.

Most desktop applications are either Web or Java based (mostly built with Eclipse/Netbeans instead of plain Swing).

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Recently learned Java
by Slambert666 on Sun 9th Oct 2011 14:56 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Recently learned Java"
Slambert666 Member since:
2008-10-30

Most desktop applications are either Web or Java based


What do you mean that desktop applications are Web based?

Most enterprise desktop applications are either .NET, VB6 or Java based (in that order).

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Recently learned Java
by moondevil on Sun 9th Oct 2011 16:54 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Recently learned Java"
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

You live in a different world than mine it seems.

On my world most desktop applications are developed on top of Eclipse or Netbeans platforms. In some exceptions Swing.

Most of the new contracts are to migrate enterprise desktops to JSF/Grails/Tapestry/Wicket web based applications.

These enterprise applications have contracts that cost the price of a car per month or even more, and run mostly in UNIX based environments.

These guys don't want anything to do with .Net.

Edited 2011-10-09 16:54 UTC

Reply Score: 4

Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

What do you mean by on top of eclipse? Do you mean created with Eclipse and using SWT?

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Recently learned Java
by Moochman on Mon 10th Oct 2011 22:41 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Recently learned Java"
Moochman Member since:
2005-07-06

I'm guessing he means on top of the Eclipse RCP.

http://www.eclipse.org/home/categories/rcp.php

Reply Score: 2

Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

Yes, I was very afraid that's what he meant. I weep for his users.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Recently learned Java
by Moochman on Sun 9th Oct 2011 08:51 UTC in reply to "RE: Recently learned Java"
Moochman Member since:
2005-07-06

like me, many linux users make very certain no JVM is ever installed on their machine.


Seems a little extreme, considering there are quite a few nice apps developed in Java that even blend right in with GTK+, but to each his own...

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Recently learned Java
by Nelson on Sun 9th Oct 2011 17:40 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Recently learned Java"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Its this elitist exclusionary attitude which has alienated developers. Linuxheads should have been falling over themselves to support the JVM and Mono on Linux. Instead they view it as a cardinal sin to use anything other than Qt or *shudders* GTK+

Reply Score: 0

Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

Native, non VM apps run faster and use less memory, ergo are usually better. Developing with QT controls in c++ isn't that much more difficult than java or c#.

Reply Score: 2

Just wondering...
by twitterfire on Mon 10th Oct 2011 16:50 UTC
twitterfire
Member since:
2008-09-11

I wonder if Larry will succeed in burying Java. Not that he wants to, but it seems he does his best.

Reply Score: 2