Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 17th Oct 2011 20:59 UTC, submitted by Ola Jensen
Amiga & AROS Version 1.3.2 of the Icaros Desktop is now available. Icaros Desktop is one of the prime AROS distributions, ready to be used on your desktop today - no fancy PowerPC hardware required (like with AmigaOS or MorphOS). If I can get this running, it might be about time we took a closer look at this, don't you think? Thoughts?
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OS News!
by Gestahlt on Mon 17th Oct 2011 21:37 UTC
Gestahlt
Member since:
2011-10-17

Finally some OS news... But didn't you guys miss out the Solaris 10 u10 news? I mean support for the T4 and such...

Reply Score: 4

Comment by churlish_Helmut
by churlish_Helmut on Mon 17th Oct 2011 21:59 UTC
churlish_Helmut
Member since:
2010-04-12

Icaros is cool. Really. I mean, you can download it, test it inside Windows and you can see, how ... uhmmm.. "amiga" it is.

Does anyone not knows Icaros or Aros? Have a look at it. Its good to see all those mini OS'es, which are a great work of small teams with big dreams.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Comment by churlish_Helmut
by jack_perry on Tue 18th Oct 2011 03:15 UTC in reply to "Comment by churlish_Helmut"
jack_perry Member since:
2005-07-06

Icaros is cool. Really. I mean, you can download it, test it inside Windows and you can see, how ... uhmmm.. "amiga" it is.


If it runs on your hardware, yes. If you run Windows on your hardware, yes. Otherwise...

Reply Score: 2

tylerdurden Member since:
2009-03-17

I see what you did there ;-)

Reply Score: 2

AROS is great...
by madcrow on Mon 17th Oct 2011 22:01 UTC
madcrow
Member since:
2006-03-13

Much like Haiku, it's chugged along under constant-but-slow development for a long time and it's starting to look really impressive. 3D acceleration, reasonably good support for USB devices, and an astonishingly high level of source compatability with other Amiga-like OSes make it a real winner. Also, while Icaros doesn't target this yet, the 68K version of AROS has really started to mature in the last few months, providing the Amiga hardware clone and emulation scene with a (legal) free OS capable of running classic software for the first time.

Go AROS!

Reply Score: 7

Yay, Icaros update!
by tidux on Mon 17th Oct 2011 22:50 UTC
tidux
Member since:
2011-08-13

I've been running Icaros in KVM for months - I'm eagerly awaiting the day my netbook (which seems to be the bane of hobbyist OSen) has graphics and wifi support. I keep looking for a good SSH and/or Telnet client for AROS... anyone have a suggestion?

Reply Score: 1

Yes Please
by Dirge on Mon 17th Oct 2011 22:56 UTC
Dirge
Member since:
2005-07-14

Thom dig in, it would be great to see some screen caps and commentary on this OS.

Edited 2011-10-17 22:57 UTC

Reply Score: 5

Comment by TheNerd
by TheNerd on Mon 17th Oct 2011 23:11 UTC
TheNerd
Member since:
2007-06-30

I definitely think Thom should give it a try. I'll probably run it in a VM one of these days to test things out.

Edited 2011-10-17 23:11 UTC

Reply Score: 1

No memory protection
by Gullible Jones on Tue 18th Oct 2011 01:20 UTC
Gullible Jones
Member since:
2006-05-23

AROS has no memory protection. Which means that a something that caused a segmentation fault on Windows or Linux could potentially cause other programs to crash on AROS, including system stuff. IMO this makes it nonviable as a useful desktop OS, no matter how many other awesome features it piles on.

(Lack of a word processor and a decent browser don't help, but those can be ported in. The big issue with memory protection is that, according to the AROS devs, it is not on the agenda at all.)

Reply Score: 2

RE: No memory protection
by sagum on Tue 18th Oct 2011 04:45 UTC in reply to "No memory protection"
sagum Member since:
2006-01-23

AROS does have OWB (origyn web browser), and it uses Webkit. So, shouldn't it be on par with at least Apple's Safari?

Reply Score: 2

RE: No memory protection
by deadwood on Tue 18th Oct 2011 04:55 UTC in reply to "No memory protection"
deadwood Member since:
2010-05-22

I'm not sure where this statement came from. I know at least one of AROS developers has memory protection on his agenda.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: No memory protection
by madcrow on Tue 18th Oct 2011 13:48 UTC in reply to "RE: No memory protection"
madcrow Member since:
2006-03-13

Memory protection is a controversial topic in AROS-dom. Some people think that having it would make AROS more secure and better able to handle ports from other (non-Amiga) systems. Other people point out that it would hurt performance and unless done VERY carefully would hurt source-compatibility with other Amiga clones and would almost certainly kill the binary compatibility that the 68K port currently has with AmigaOS.

Reply Score: 5

v RE[3]: No memory protection
by antidroid on Tue 18th Oct 2011 18:13 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: No memory protection"
RE[4]: No memory protection
by Mage66 on Tue 18th Oct 2011 20:48 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: No memory protection"
Mage66 Member since:
2005-07-11

It's not an Emulator. It's a full OS that includes an emulator to run older software.

Just like MacOS X used to be able to run classic MacOS software.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: No memory protection
by tylerdurden on Tue 18th Oct 2011 20:18 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: No memory protection"
tylerdurden Member since:
2009-03-17

Memory protection is a controversial topic among AROS developers, because they think it hurts performance. For reals?

I know it is a hobby OS and all. But some of the Amiga die hard fans are stuck in the early 80s in more ways that I thought ;-)

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: No memory protection
by ncafferkey on Wed 19th Oct 2011 01:06 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: No memory protection"
ncafferkey Member since:
2006-09-15

No, memory protection hurting performance isn't a big worry among AROS devs or users. The real issue is finding a way to introduce it without breaking source compatibility (too much).

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: No memory protection
by Alfman on Wed 19th Oct 2011 05:26 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: No memory protection"
Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

ncafferkey,

"No, memory protection hurting performance isn't a big worry among AROS devs or users. The real issue is finding a way to introduce it without breaking source compatibility (too much)."

I know very little about this platform, but I'm curious what kind of software requires the absence of memory protection? Is this because amiga apps routinely access hardware directly? Or they routinely read/write bios/os structures?

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: No memory protection
by viton on Wed 19th Oct 2011 08:02 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: No memory protection"
viton Member since:
2005-08-09

AmigaOS is a Single Address Space OS, where an App or OS can pick any object of other applications. That makes data passing and sharing easy and fast. As I see it, the only way to do memory protection transparently is protection domains that require tagged memory allocations to specify data access rights.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: No memory protection
by Alfman on Wed 19th Oct 2011 10:04 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: No memory protection"
Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

viton,

"AmigaOS is a Single Address Space OS, where an App or OS can pick any object of other applications. That makes data passing and sharing easy and fast."

Oh I see, thanks for the answer So it's about shared objects... Well I guess at least it's a good technical reason for not having protection.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: No memory protection
by tylerdurden on Wed 19th Oct 2011 19:08 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: No memory protection"
tylerdurden Member since:
2009-03-17

You can still emulate a single address space, with memory protection.

I can understand that adds some complexity to the OS design. But then the problem is then code complexity, not performance overhead from memory protection (which is practically a non-issue in most modern architectures).

But then it is not my project. So whatever it is they want to do, it is their pregogative.

Edited 2011-10-19 19:11 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: No memory protection
by neticspace on Tue 18th Oct 2011 05:29 UTC in reply to "No memory protection"
neticspace Member since:
2009-06-09

This is my guess. A lack of memory protection could mean that there is a reasonable demand for "elegant coding".

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: No memory protection
by kragil on Tue 18th Oct 2011 08:30 UTC in reply to "RE: No memory protection"
kragil Member since:
2006-01-04

This is my guess too.

Not that I think that no memory protection is a worthy goal, it is not, BUT in an ecosystem where there is no memory protection apps that leak memory or do other shit with memory get eradicated fairly quickly, because people will stop using them and get replaced by better alternatives or they will get fixed quickly.

In my years with the Amiga I haven't had real problems with seg faults. Blue screens on Windows were/are much more common.

Reply Score: 7

RE[3]: No memory protection
by zima on Tue 18th Oct 2011 11:23 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: No memory protection"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Or it could ultimately lead to relative scarceness of mature software, deficiency of features, slow development, stagnation, experiments not leading anywhere, hitting some limits of progress when the code base starts to become fragile?
Hm, that might partly describe what already happened, once...

Anyway, even the present ports of some important, big, and good tools don't seem so well, when compared to the originals on major platforms.


Also, we were probably doing much less on Amigas in the first place and/or we were more forgiving (or even: the past & rose-coloured glasses?)

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: No memory protection
by neticspace on Tue 18th Oct 2011 13:42 UTC in reply to "RE: No memory protection"
neticspace Member since:
2009-06-09

BTW, why does this particular memory issue remind me of Jason McMullan and his "Library OS" idea?

http://obligement.free.fr/articles_traduction/itwmcmullan_en.php

Reply Score: 2

RE: No memory protection
by jack_perry on Tue 18th Oct 2011 13:27 UTC in reply to "No memory protection"
jack_perry Member since:
2005-07-06

AROS has no memory protection.


...just like the original AmigaOS. IIRC this is because they were originally aiming to be source-compatible. I think this is related to message-passing, but I'm not sure.

Which means that a something that caused a segmentation fault on Windows or Linux could potentially cause other programs to crash on AROS, including system stuff.


Correct.

IMO this makes it nonviable as a useful desktop OS, no matter how many other awesome features it piles on.


"Useful" is a relative term.

Reply Score: 3

Go for it
by djohnston on Tue 18th Oct 2011 05:03 UTC
djohnston
Member since:
2006-04-11

Thom,

If I can do it, so can you. If you want explicit partitioning and disk drive setup instructions, you can read the articles I did on version 1.2.6.

http://pclosmag.com/html/Issues/201103/page15.html Part 1
http://pclosmag.com/html/Issues/201104/page09.html Part 2
http://pclosmag.com/html/Issues/201105/page07.html Part 3
http://pclosmag.com/html/Issues/201106/page12.html Part 4

Please overlook the first sentence in the first article. I don't know what I was thinking. Anyway, I've since installed on real hardware, and it works just as well.

Gullible Jones is right, though. AROS has no memory protection. I've gotten the same occasional "guru meditation" screens I've seen on real Amigas.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Go for it
by DeadFishMan on Wed 19th Oct 2011 13:44 UTC in reply to "Go for it"
DeadFishMan Member since:
2006-01-09

Thanks a bunch. That was a great read! It is a shame that I haven't seen it before. Not sure if there are any "exclusivity agreement" in place with PCLOS magazine that would prevent you from publishing it here in OSNews but I'd love to see it featured here as well and possibly with a follow up with some in-depth review on the utilities available for AROS.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Go for it
by djohnston on Wed 19th Oct 2011 21:38 UTC in reply to "RE: Go for it"
djohnston Member since:
2006-04-11

Thanks for your kind comments, DeadFishMan. Apart from using a C=64 and Amigas at home and UNIX at work, I didn't have any exposure to the "alternate" OSes until I began frequenting OSNews. It was here I first learned about them, back when Eugenia was on the staff. I believe that AtheOS and Bluebottle were the first ones I looked at. Anyway, that search finally led me to Linux, which allowed me to completely do away with MS-DOS/Windows at home. So, I'm very grateful to OSNews for that.

My loyalty lies with PCLinuxOS and their magazine. I've done other articles there on ReactOS, Syllable, Haiku, Menuet, etc. I'm sure that OSNews is free to link to the articles. I can check on whether or not they can be republished here, but I believe they can. However, I haven't heard a peep out of Thom.

You can find an article index at http://pclosmag.com/html/sorted.html

Reply Score: 1

Comment by fredbooth
by fredbooth on Tue 18th Oct 2011 11:10 UTC
fredbooth
Member since:
2008-01-07

What a good idea to test it out, Thom. It's really come on in the last few years and deserves a bit more 'visibility'.

Reply Score: 2

68k!!
by leech on Wed 19th Oct 2011 21:25 UTC
leech
Member since:
2006-01-10

I'm waiting for the 68k version to be up to snuff, would love to have all the awesomeness that is AROS on my original Amiga hardware to replace the patched up semi-awesomeness that is OS3.9. Too bad you can get a 68k Amiga for an okayish price, but if you want to get an accelerator for it, you're going to be shelling out a boatload.

Reply Score: 2

Cómo es Thom,
by ebasconp on Thu 20th Oct 2011 20:16 UTC
ebasconp
Member since:
2006-05-09

did you try it?

Edited 2011-10-20 20:16 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: Cómo es Thom,
by leech on Fri 21st Oct 2011 20:48 UTC in reply to "Cómo es Thom,"
leech Member since:
2006-01-10

I wanted to try it, but neither my HP Touchsmart, nor my PC could boot with it. Grub came up, and it showed a bunch of [PCI] lines, trying to initialize my hardware, but then it just stopped and didn't go any further than that.

Supposedly my nVidia 560 GTX is supported...

Reply Score: 2