OSNews

Well, your logged data can be transmitted most securely then :/

If CarrierIQ is on a BlackBerry it's because the user (or their BES admin) installed it and authorized it to run, not the carrier. RIM has never authorized the carriers to install CarrierIQ.

Disclosure: I work for BlackBerry Security at RIM.

There are higher forces at work here. Do you REALLY think the feds and other three letter agencies DON'T know what you're up to? That's naive, to say the least. And no, I don't wear a tinfoil hat, but it's logical to assume that once you're connected to any network, someone's watching you from somewhere...

Unlikely on a per individual basis.

Something perhaps watches you from somewhere, as just one blip among millions to data mine - and triggers some alarm at abnormal activity, at most (with ever more higher steps in the chain gradually moving from people to software)

You're not that interesting / there are way too many virtually identical primates also running around (which also provides a nice statistical baseline, highlights what stands out)


Yes, the perfect organization, hiding its collective nature from virtually all members / that's how Skynet will come ;p

Interesting, I was always under the impression that the carriers had a lot of influence when it came to their unique versions of the BB OS. Back in the day I would play with different carriers' versions of the OS for the Storm phones, as I was using a Storm on AT&T's network and I wanted the best experience. There were a lot of low-level differences among each build.

That said, I imagine something like CarrierIQ would be blocked by RIM as it contradicts their marketing regarding security.

By the way, nice to see another Thief fan out there. I've been trying to convince gog.com to get the rights to redistribute the Thief series in a modern playable format. So far they have kindly told me to "taff off".

I also love the Thief games, but playing a thief/assassin in the elder scrolls games is quite similar in a lot of ways (however, it has been a long time since I played Thief, so I may be missing some points).

Well I still play Thief and, dated as it is, nothing comes close to the atmosphere and feel of the game world itself. It was steampunk before steampunk was in the mainstream. And taken as a whole the gameplay is unique, though many other games borrow bits and pieces from it (Assassin's Creed, Deus Ex, Metal Gear Solid etc).

I will say that the Rogue class on World of Warcraft at least gave me the stalking/stealth and pickpocketing aspects of the game, which is why I always went for a Subtlety/Assassination build when playing one.

Brazil or (particularly, with "pureness" of its steampunk) Final Fantasy VI were basically in the mainstream (not much less IMHO than it is not-really-mainstream now), quite a few years before Thief already. Maybe also The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, or Wild Wild West (that's 3 decades before Thief - any TV series surviving for four seasons had to capture popular attention)

(and you should really say things like "nothing comes close" in a less generalised way ;p )

Also, while Jules Verne novels apparently don't qualify as steampunk, it's less clear IMHO with their relatively recent & rather mainstream film adaptations.


Thief came out in late Autumn '98, while Metal Gear Solid in Summer of 98.
It is highly unlikely the former influenced the latter - if there was some influence going on, it was the other way around.*

Especially since Thief was quite under the radar IIRC; while MGS was big - loud, massively promoted and anticipated for quite some time before its première.
Furthermore, MGS is a sequel; it is essentially, in gameplay, a 3D Metal Gear 2 - we're almost back to the '80s here.


*Indeed, while quickly verifying première dates, a nearby snippet on Thief Wikipedia article suggests the game went through some tweaking during last months of development; it seems the anticipation and positive reception of MGS acted as a major motivator and catalyst to clean up, a bit "broken" at the time, Thief.


There's also, somewhat closer in overall concept and also quite loud (I remember how it stole a bit the spotlight from MGS anticipation), Tenchu - beginning of '98.

Edited 2011-12-04 14:47 UTC

I hadn't thought about FFVI, though it was one of my favorite games as a teen back in the early 90s. Of course back then I had no idea that there was a concept of "steampunk" outside of Jules Verne's writings and the Myst computer game.

The League comic came out after Thief and take it from an avid comic collector, it was hardly mainstream. As for WWW it was more western scifi than steampunk by far; less Victorian than U.S. Western.

I'll thank you not to try to tell me how to talk, winking or not. I maintain that there has yet to be a game with the atmosphere of Thief and Thief II. Even Thief III lost a lot of what made the game draw you in. It's an opinion, I own it and if you don't like it, too bad. But don't try to tell me how to speak. If you disagree with what I said, I'd welcome a counterpoint, not a grammar lesson.

From what I remember, it was a kind of mutual influence between Thief and MGS. I played and enjoyed both games back then, and I remember the release dates. But both studios knew what the other was working on and there was a lot of competition there. I don't have to consult (the often wildly incorrect and biased) Wikipedia to recall that. Tenchu was, from what I remember, closer to Daikatana than either Thief or MGS. It was very tightly controlled and what little stealth there was involved jumping behind a corner at the right moment, reminiscent of the Resident Evil series' annoying timing based gameplay.

Regardless, you seem to have ignored the part of my sentence that said "taken as a whole the gameplay is unique". In other words, show me another game that has Thief's combination of stealth-focused gameplay, broad exploration capabilities, sound-based stalking and intelligent AI, all in a steampunk world that draws you in the way it does. I'll say it again: Nothing comes close.

So you forgot about something like FF6, hm...

The thing with League is how its motifs were clearly around, ingrained - I think that's actually roughly how people think of Victorian era (of past in general), in the sense that historiography, and mythology of sorts, get mixed (we are really quite bad when relating even to our own past); steampunk "merely" codifies it, brings it to front (also of fairly popular culture, like not much later film - and, sure, it was bad :p ...but at the same time, ~awesome in the world it depicted).

And not really so rigidly "Victorian"(?) - I recall Thief to be more/largely high Middle Ages (so you'd disqualify it yourself), IIRC much less "Victorian" than, say, FF6. And Wild West in general is at least roughly contemporary - just in a periphery of sorts.



As to your feelings about that one game ...expressing such in less generalised way is not a matter of grammar, but cohesion. In defending your darling, you now expect from me counterpoints to hypothesis stated in a self-fulfilling way - of course Thief is Thief. But then, many productions are similarly "unique" & "nothing comes close" to plenty of people heavily invested in turn into them (look what it does, you forgot about FF6; plus, many cognitive biases deal with "when we care about smth", NVM when we almost grew up on it), when they seek out and list enough of characteristics...
(BTW, I would add to yours: trial & error game style)


That's not what I was really after, anyway.

...just how the influence on MGS was unlikely (basic chronology; now you dismiss it?). MGS was also a sequel, in development for much longer, with many "leaks" - Tenchu* partly "stole" MGS: there was a consensus of it being a quick'n'dirty - but unexpectedly quite good - game made on ruckus around MGS. It's also unclear to what degree Hideo Kojima and his team could be exposed; few barriers in-between (he was hardly informed about sequel to his own Metal Gear...)


And note I hardly claimed there was direct MGS -> Thief influence (only that "if..."), just pointed out some Wiki tidbit (seemingly with solid source, assuming the info is indeed in that book).
But, by so readily dismissing this popcultural reflection of... many ardent Thief fans (that's who makes such articles), you sort of belittle your own views. A reflection more likely to be overtly generous to Thief.



* Tenchu, beginning of 98... "shadow and sound" play - sounds familiar? Not quite like Daikatana... (which I appreciated much more than seemed typical, BTW)

Edited 2011-12-09 00:19 UTC

There was a statement from RIM in their BlackBerry support forums at http://supportforums.blackberry.com/t5/Java-Development/Does-Carrie... :


Not sure exactly how official this statement is though. Seems kind of strange to me that a Development Advisor would be responsible for RIM's public communications.

It would appear Verizon isn't entirely honest - or they are simply unaware what Apple puts in iOS.

I'm sure the data mining programs will really feel that burn.

I'd try going into airplane mode and carefully corrupting the files in malicious ways the data mining programmers may not have anticipated.

But as I said in another thread, I don;t have it present on my phone any more due to my CyanogenMod rom.

The official explanation is that it is "just" spyware, but researchers that discovered it are claiming it can also take commands from the carrier.

Ok, then I agree that it's basically a rootkit. Seriously not cool that carriers would intentionally install something like this. Sony all over again? (Well, not quite as bad, but nearly so.)

Sony rootkit wasn't collecting and transmitting anything... (it possibly created some attack vectors, sure; but that also happens with lots of appstore software, and not in overt manner; Sony rootkit case was bad enough on its "merits", no need to nurture it into anti-Sony mythology)

Yeah, I was pretty shocked to realize this has been on my phone for nearly 14 months (HTC Evo - thanks Sprint, for charging me for 4G where I don't have it and now this!). Switching to CM 7.1 today.

Edit: Think I'll go with these guys next: http://republicwireless.com/ Just hope they get some better phones by the time my Sprint contract is up.

Edited 2011-12-01 15:21 UTC

From http://republicwireless.com/how

What a nice contradiction...

I thought it was kind of funny that everyone seems to have forgotten about Carrier IQ and what they do. Once you tunnel down below the level of current articles there is a significant amount of information about them.

This only qualifies as 'news' because smart phones have achieved such good market penetration. Carrier IQ has been doing this since at least 2008:

http://venturebeat.com/2009/01/28/carrier-iq-rings-in-20m-to-gather...

http://www.fiercewireless.com/special-reports/carrier-iq-top-wirele...

http://www.nec.co.jp/press/en/0902/1801.html

Funny thing. I actually discovered CarrierIq on my captivate a couple of months ago. I didn't know what it was doing, but saw that it had full permissions to do what ever the heck it wanted and I couldn't kill it from Android's interface. Thought about running it through my own network to analyse all of the data it was sending to see if anything suspicious was being sent, but never found the time.

I just installed CyanogenMod and left it a that. Thanks to those that aren't as lazy as myself. I hope the guilty are held responsible.

Or even better, buy a Nexus phone.

How was this not mentioned in the article? Thom takes extra time to poke at iOS, and yet it isn't even remotely the same. By far the biggest privacy violation with CarrierIQ is that it monitors your text input, which doesn't happen on iOS.

Lumping a user opt-in feature that logs only general usage data with a real rootkit that logs everything is pretty ridiculous.

Only thing on that list that might concern people is location, but every carrier will know that anyway. Don't expect to move in anonymity if you're carrying a cell phone.

As for Android, another reason never to buy anything but Google devices.

Probably because it IS mentioned in the article. Several times, in fact.

Did you even read it?

Actually, the article is a bit misleading. It's not just that it doesn't "store" the data, it flat out doesn't have access to the UI layer, so it can't see typed text, SMS messages, URLs, passwords, etc. It's just diagnostics.

Just for clarification.

Like Thom said, it is mentioned.

However he does describe it as a root kit, that present on Android *AND* iOS, while I'd hardly call it a root kit on iOS. It's in plan sight and does what it says it does, you can turn it off which is the default.

Apparently the Android version can't be turned off by any normal means ordinary people would be able to do.

While I consider this a big bad thing, I don't think Android has any blame, apart from that it's open nature makes it easy to embed this kind of stuff.

I don't feel at ease with this kind of argument. Sharp knives are dangerous due to their open nature, yet this has never (to the best of my knowledge) led anyone to cut his meat solely with rounded-edge scissors.

As an iOS user, I'm certainly glad that it wasn't nearly as serious a (potential) threat as on some Android devices, but it still makes me nervous.

I think taking anonymous logs and statistics is probably helpful to companies who are genuinely looking to improve their services - the thing is, I haven't noticed tons of improvement from AT&T's coverage. Maybe if these companies are collecting this kind of data, it would be helpful if they released some kind of report of how it was helping them provide better services to their customers? A little bit of transparency, maybe?

It would be nice if you could see on a map how well their coverage is and if/when they are going to improve it if needed.

A few months ago I didn't have 3G when waiting at my son's school, but now I do. So things secretly do change, but it would be nice to know and even nicer if we could help (via auto diagnostics) and see what happens with this data.

Well, in France you have a map on some carriers' website. The only problem is that it's seriously flawed for anything but basic GSM services, because in several places, phones do detect the existence of a data network but are totally unable to do anything with it.

PS : Oh, and happy birthday Thom !

Edited 2011-12-02 07:48 UTC

Except that a) the carrier can turn it on before they ship your device and b) most people don't know it exists.
In a way, it's actually worse than android since at least then the carrier has to go through the work of installing it while with iOS all they need to to do is turn it on.

How can it be worse if it doesn't log 'n' report keystrokes, CAN be turned off?

Besides I haven't read carriers turning it on before handing out iPhones. Apparently the iOS welcome routine asks the user if they want to turn diagnostics on.

No way Apple would ever allow anyone, carriers or other companies, to change anything on their products without them doing it for them (and even then they probably wouldn't).

In the real world, phones of clueless users are often set up in-store; carrier staff being able to do essentially anything with their settings.
For some time now, iOS devices don't even need iTunes for activation... (though bringing a laptop, for assistance with the process, wasn't beyond possible)

By your standards you aren't doing anything illegal or weird; unfortunately, that isn't a very goo defence in the court of law.

Have you insulted the Royal Family of Thailand? Advocated for the rights of women to an education, voting, or driving?

If you have you may have violated the laws of countries that may hold you accountable for your "crimes" should you visit them.

So you don't mind them collecting your passwords which you type in?

On iOS, CarrierIQ does not have access to the UI layer and do not log any keystroke or web history.

I'm living in Japan and it's on my au HTC Evo WiMAX ...

I'm living in Japan and it's on my au HTC Evo WiMAX ... "

Sorry to tell you this, but since the end of the war Japan has almost been a colony of the United States. Okay, so Carrier IQ is only present in countries that use NTSC TVs

Though Japan did break away with digital TV, spearheaded their own standard ...which, curiously, also became the dominating one in Latin America (something about giving the finger for, more or less, a century of - figurative - interference?); and who knows about Africa (Chinese standard might also get some footing there, with PRC involvement in the region)

Though, really, ISDB was probably the best choice out of big three standards... (ATSC the worst; it seems Brazil did actual studies to asses them, reviewed later by each standard body)

So maybe times are changin', and we have mostly just remnants of the old days via installed base and such. The adoption of NTSC successor is essentially limited to immediate US neighbours ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Digital_broadcast_standards.svg ) and South Korea (so they would seem more of a colony for some reason, I guess ;p )

Well, quick ctrl+F "ios" reveals posts containing a defence of sorts or desiring to clarify the situation with iOS ...initiated by locally known, ardent Apple defendants (or Applebots, in some cases). Otherwise, plenty of concern about the situation on Android.

Nothing out of the ordinary (unless one is under RDF, I suppose)