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Really glad to see stability and performance improvements listed as a goal in 4.8. I just wish they would dedicate a single release ONLY to stability and performance. Freeze all features and just concentrate on making the ones they already have work well without crashing or bogging down the system. Heck, *remove* some features if necessary to achieve it. Remember that stability and performance are the must-have features.
Edit: Oh, and by the way, a huge thanks to the KDE team for producing a product that still runs and acts the same even without 3D driver support. I HATE it when other systems require 3D drivers just to render menus or provide a bunch of superfluous effects. Edited 2012-01-27 04:38 UTC
Your statement contradicts the KDE developers; clearly there was some code that was "boggin down the system" in some cases.
So clearly for some people it is fine, and for some people it is not. That's always the case; software tends to be judged by the worst-case though (as it should be), because those are the cases that still have to be fixed.
There's no need to maintain that everything is perfect in KDE-land, there are sore-spots just like in GNOME or any other software project.
Software is complicated and can fail in very interesting and diverse ways, especially something as big as KDE; it's hard to get perfect.
Some errors will be due to KDE's dependencies, some not, but who are you to say that they're all due to dependencies? Good thing the KDE devs don't think like you, nothing would ever get done. All bugs marked "Works for me -- CLOSED", that'll work really well....
maybe you think that "crashing or bogging down the system" is the normal behavior so you don't recognize it as such?
or maybe it's because it doesn't? I haven't had any stability problems with kde4 for a long time now. Heck, I even have a 7 year old laptop (768Mb RAM) that runs it reasonably well. The only program I can remember crashing is Rekonq and it does indeed crash a bit more often than it should.
Not having a 1.0 version number is no excuse for crashing.
On the other hand, Arora crashes about as much for me so maybe it's a Webkit thing or something else.
We are close to releasing version 0.9
I hardly ever get a rekonq crash, would you mind telling me what qtwebkit/qt versions are you running?
Have you submitted any bug report?
webkit: whatever kde is using.
What sometimes happens is that rekong just crashes after a period of time but as I said the same thing happens with Arora.
I'm very happy with rekong overall though and the only thing I miss is some kind of bookmark sync.
I don't agree. Every time I've tried various versions of KDE 4 they have been a bit glitchy and slow. I hope 4.8 is better.
Unfortunatly, i understand where the "kde is not snappy comments come from".
The same KDE release in the same machine, same configurations but :
Super snappy... its kwin effects gallore ... it feels like it doesnt even use 10% of the video card.
Opensuse ( latest and previous ) :
Super slow ... with compositing enabled is just barelly usable.
I have to use an special user openbuild service X/Mesa/DRM repository to make it "normal" speed.
This "unsnappiness" is completly KDE unrelated, but KDE "karma","fame","opinion" suffers from it
I do like openSuse though, kudos to them for the great distro.
That said, my thoughts :
* It is something in the graphics department of openSuse. Only gpu/graphics are slow and worse have a little of corruption on them (glitchs sometime appears). I dunno why this happens, simply managing driver and X / Mesa versions is not enough, as opensuse is using a more or less recent X/Mesa/Driver stack.
* Even if its only graphics performance and the rest is very fast ... everything will look horrible slow. No matter how fast the underlying system is running, if displaying / moving / animating a window is slow, it looks like everything is damn slow.
I would really love for openSuse to fix this, as its one of my favorite distros. Problably is something related to my video card model and its rare, so its not getting attention.
In terms of performance and memory usage , KDE is very very good. Actually , since i have a very weird KDE desktop configuration ( systray and menu are on the dashboard ), if kde was slow everything would be ruined ( dashboard does dim screen and blur... and i go there alot of times. if it was slow it would greatly effect my usage ).
Kudos also for the nepomuk and strigi guys. My only grip now is : Why not export tags and ( some , only whats possible ) nepomuk info into files extended attributes. My work and backup partitions are both linux filesystems, so i would never lose any information.
And it would be perfect if they can make it lightweight as in KDE3, and reduce memory consumption.
well it's intriquing.. Mine is asus 1215B (E-350, 2GB).
archlinux 32bit KDE 4.7.3 on it, and it's not so fast. But then, maybe the video card's the problem.
I ain't can't let go KDE3. Re-read my post, please?
And yes, I've checked razor-qt. It sure is interesting. Memory footprint's low too, but still not that user friendly.
Lightweight in memory consumption/ memory footprint/ how much KDE use the memory. Not the harddrive.
My KDE4 mem when booting to KDE 4.7.3 is 4xx MB. I'm afraid it'll not enough if it just 512MB mem (unless you kill akonadi & nepomuk). Barely usable. It'll run slowly cause then have to use swap space.
When you just have 512MB mem, when booting to KDE, Try to you open firefox with 4-6 tab, a couple of program and you'll run out of mem.
I really like KDE, but their mem footprint is worse with each release. Memory's cheaper now doesn't meant KDE have to throw all the memory they can use.
Yeah, I know..
I'm a bit crazy about optimization
I works. When my laptop died this spring, I went back and used my former laptop with 512MByte memory and ran KDE 4.6 on it. It worked just fine, just as fine as KDE3 had run on in the days.
Worked fine for me on a 2.8 GHz Celeron laptop with only 512 MB of RAM, running KDE4 plasma-netbook interface. Could run Firefox and even watch youtube videos (until a certain Flash upgrade hosed the box and the reinstall never ran Flash properly afterward).
Yes, desktop effects are turned off (the onboard RADEON 7000 GPU doesn't support them), nepomuck/akonadi are turned off (it's an HTPC, no need for strigi or mail storage), and it tends to only run 1 app at a time (Dragon). But KDE4 runs beautifully on it, and it's very usable. It was our main TV show/movie access for several years, starting with KDE3, then upgrading to KDE4.2, then 4.4, and I think it was running 4.6 by the end.
KDE is developed by hundreds of volunteers, working on their own prefered directions.
There's not, and there could not be a 'management' to drive the development process. KDE could not force a 'stability release' among its developers.
However, 'stability and performance' is the path kde is actually taking. In the past few releases, most of the effort has been put into polishing various parts, not adding new features.
But software isn't an animal ... Edited 2012-01-27 09:56 UTC
Software is an unruly beast.
Indeed, discipline is an issue when you depend on volunteered work spread around the globe.
However, you have to understand that KDE includes many many sub-projects. These sub-projects are in different status and their own developers and maintainers know the necessary steps for their own projects better than ayone else. So even if KDE 'could' force a feature freeze on a specific release, that wouldnt make any sense. Those parts which need polish are already being polished. Edited 2012-01-27 09:09 UTC
I think KDE is stagned (no really big new features since 4.2) and even after 8 sub-versions, it doesn't make me exited about it.
I'm more eager to put my hands on razor-qt 0.5 than in KDE 5.
KDE 4 series has become alright, despite some crash here or there. But the lack of new themes on par with Oxygen are the huge low down. We have some poor polished QT themes, but nothing really better than Oxygen, which can be very tiring - all the grey gradient with those ridiculous rounded buttons for its style...
The lack of an specific font seems to be being worked out, but my bet it's that is going to be a little better than GNOME's Cantarell. From a first impression, Ubuntu's fonts remain the best typeface, IMO.
To KDE team: More [embedded] themes and styles, before going to 5 series. Please. Edited 2012-01-27 21:16 UTC
If you feel a bit "adventurous" you can try the bespin themes.
I now it is also grey, but I like the "bespin detour", inspired by enlightenment detour theme.
Don't know what happened between Thomas and the design team of KDE (he was directly involved on themes creation in the beginning of KDE4 series), but his engine and the themes it support seems to be some of the best on kde-look from the aesthetic point-of-view.
kde is hideous and the people making it have no taste is what you're saying. judging from the screenshots it appears you are correct
some links nobody has read doesn't convince me or the billions of people not using kde that it is attractive or otherwise any good
So, if you so openly admit that - just like most people - you are not convinced by tales of KDE beauty and power (I can't not agree with you) ...then why use it, daily at that? (and again, gloating about it publicly)
Some peculiar form of masochism, maybe even outright punishing yourself for some reason? Edited 2012-02-03 00:01 UTC
the screenshots in the links in the story you are replying to
Ah, I thought you meant that the OP had a screenshot.
Hideous? You sir, have no taste.
Taste is an opinion not a fact.
Personally I think "Windows Standard" (Win 2k theme) on Windows XP with cleartype type turned on was theme for getting stuff done.
I personally think the spacing of all the elements are off and inconsistent. I am sure you can change it but that really isn't the point. First impressions count. Edited 2012-01-30 13:09 UTC
QtCurve is still around and far superior to Oxygen, but I don't know if the guy'll keep updating.
He's not talking about Plasma themes (of which there is certainly no shortage) but widget styles.
I am yet to see on this entire forum a single post that you agree with.
Why does he have to agree with anybody? As long as he argues his point...
*(even if it were true)
I am yet to see on this entire forum a single post where you are not trolling or being intentionally inflammatory.
My trolling seems to be working, specially for you. Wherever I throw a bait, there's always you to catch it. Good job.
Being intentionally inflammatory that is what the internet is for. Have a problem with fire? Stay away from it. Who here could be more inflammatory than argue against any point of view? You're from the team too.
As far as I am concerned about inflammatory, you also do the same kind of thing, that is for sure.
Unfortunately, doing themes in Qt, complex one that manage color configuration, animations, shadows, good AA is not trivial stuff... And requires 2 things, Good designers, and better Coders.
Note that Oxygen Is AFIK the only QT, GTK, GTK2 theme that exists, and that loses no reconfigurability or significant features in any of the engines...
Its not the most exiting theme in the world, it was design to last the entire 4.x series, far more than any KDE theme until today. and doing that without becoming annoying or distractive wile pushing the frontiers of what we do and how we arrange apps in KDE.... I must say that I believe Oxygen to be a massive success, Never in KDE history as a theme lasted this long and pleasing so many, and at the same time being so discretely innovative in the amount of things a theme does in OSS.
With the advent of QML and QML components that might change... But don't expect anything revolutionary, in terms of volume of themes, Good configurable themes are still alot of work, specially if they are meant to be colorable..
Soon we will start talking about KDE 5.0 and what needs to be done for that, honestly Wen i started This fantastic experience I said I would only do the 4.x series and im not sure what will happen next, but I hope its something Fantastic.
Overall I'm incredibly happy with of he job we managed to do with a incredible small team of volunteers.
I will keep on working on oxygen several facets up until the last day of its existence.
Oxygen is a good default theme that need polish some rought edges, like IMHO the abuse of rounded corners, the use of rect corners here and there would make it more elegant.
Thank you for that comment. "need polish some rough edges" I agree there is allot of room for improvement...
"like IMHO the abuse of rounded corners" Don't agree there, in the sense of volume, as I see it they can be rounded or not rounded, so all of them rounded or not, some rounded some not would be inconsistent.
A more sharp globally less rounded theme, sure. But not in just some places...
I should note that depending in the dpi of your screen that may vary as they are pixel based, should also note that studies indicate that people feel less comfortable with hard 90 degree angles, so a bit of roundness makes a theme look more #safe" and inviting...
Any way, thank you for the kind comments, and I think i understood what you meent... Globally I agree we need more quality themes with different design pasterns, oxygen is band because it tries to make every one happy, and we can only fail wen trying to do that...
Even though I use bespin from time to time I must say that I really like the overall default look of KDE4. To me it is by far the best DE of them all. Are there some glitches that should be fixed? Yes, there are. But if I weight all things together nor Windows 7 nor OS X are as good to me, despite both of them be very good too.
Thank you very much for all effort you, the oxygen team and all other developers have put on creating KDE4.
My take on this issue is that while KDE4 is somewhat heavier than other environments, the difference in CPU usage or memory consumption does not matter much on most of the hardware people use.
The problem with KDE is that it puts strain on the underlying subsystems and hardware drivers. From my experience, it works fairly well on legacy hardware, where most of the new stuff is disabled anyway, or it requires top-notch drivers supporting all the new and fancy features. The ugly truth is that most of the linux hardware drivers are half baked and require application writers to carefully maneuver their way through supported features.
On my system KDE4.7 is constantly using 100% of one (of four) CPU cores. This of course makes the whole system run like crap but I doubt this is how it is supposed to work (I mean, no one could screw the implementation up so badly, even if he/she tried very hard). More likely, there is some conflict between KDE and some of the subsystems (audio in my case).
Ultimately, though, it is the job of KDE4 programmers and distributors to make their product work well. The users have all rights to complain if it is unusable out of the box and it is not their job to fix it.
You make a good point. If the user experiences that a CPU core is constantly burned while using KDE, then they should be reporting it through KDE. In some sense KDE is to 'blame' in the sense that they stand between the underlying system and the user, and they should protect the user from such things.
Buggy video drivers, that don't work well in certain circumstances? I believe KDE should be adding ugly hacks around this in their system, while at the same time petitioning to get things fixed in the video drivers so the hacks can eventually be removed.
I think that it's the only way to get the users what they need over the long and short term.
Yup, my point exactly.
In an "ideal world" all the users trying KDE4 would have enough knowledge and patience to identify the exact cause of the problem (and perhaps fix it - that's often equivalent to identifying the culprit), go to a valid bug tracker and never ever mention in public that KDE is running slow or is unstable (even if that's exactly what they experience).
But in the real life the users will spend 1~2 hours on "trying new KDE4", hit an issue they can't resolve themselves, and spread the word to anyone daring to ask about how KDE4 is slow and unstable.
But, is it fair? Well, IMHO it's not fair that KDE4 gets all the blame. But they do deserve bad publicity. After all it is their product that wasn't robust enough and their poor design and testing practices that produced to it.
Besides, who cares?, Ultimately, the goal is to make a better DE satisfying needs of more and more users and not to cover problems with excuses.
Or see http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2011/08/rendering-at-60-frame... -- KWin did get some serious performance improvements.