Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 5th Apr 2012 20:30 UTC
Windows It had to be said. It had to be said because no one else in the technology industry had the guts to say it. "I think it's time to stop giving Windows Phone a pass." Thanks, Joshua Topolsky. He's right. A few weeks ago I went back to my HTC HD7 for a few days while I was getting acquainted with the Android ROM scene, and to my utter surprise, most of my problems with Windows Phone 7 from when the platform was just released were still there.
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Comment by helf
by helf on Thu 5th Apr 2012 20:35 UTC
helf
Member since:
2005-07-06

I've been happily using WP7 since it came out. I don't get all the hate that's piled on it simply because it has a different UI.

Btw, I'm using (and posting from) and HTC Arrive phone. I had issues with a few apps and their scrolling, like the Reddit client Baconit. But it was overhauled recently and is silky smooth now. I hardly ever have any noticeable UI lag.

Edited 2012-04-05 20:44 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE: Comment by helf
by jared_wilkes on Thu 5th Apr 2012 20:50 UTC in reply to "Comment by helf"
jared_wilkes Member since:
2011-04-25

You seem to be missing something.

The point is to criticize it for its actual functional lacking and to stop giving it a pass because at least it looks different.

Reply Score: 10

RE[2]: Comment by helf
by helf on Thu 5th Apr 2012 20:54 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by helf"
helf Member since:
2005-07-06

Like what functionality? The only thing is regressed in, capabilitieswise, that I cared about was sending videos over mms. It won't do that. Otherwise...? The built in browser works fine, the few fames I've bothered with work well, plays music fine, ssh works fine, ... What's missing? The article doesn't really tell you anything of any substance just "a dearth of programs".

Its market is definitely tiny compared to iOS and Android, but I've not run into anything I can't do that I care about versus my old android phone.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Comment by helf
by Morgan on Sat 7th Apr 2012 00:54 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by helf"
Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

I've found only one major bug with the device and I'm curious if you have been affected by it too. When sending an SMS message, the device will stop at 160 characters and say "message too long", and deactivate the send button until I backspace to within the limit. I know that the limit on SMS is traditionally 160 characters, but every phone I've owned since 2002 will automatically split and send the text as multiple messages if you type beyond the limit. Some older devices had a maximum of 600 or so characters total in the text field, but my last Android phone seemed to have no limits at all.

I've asked HTC about this, they blame Microsoft and Sprint, saying WP7's SMS software isn't designed for Sprint's CDMA network (what?? Why release it then?), which handles SMS differently than GSM. Microsoft doesn't respond to my support emails, and Sprint says it's definitely a limitation of WP7 and not their network. Yet, no other carrier/manufacturer combination has had this issue to my knowledge, and this is the only Sprint phone affected that I've come across.

I was just curious if you've run into this limit too. I'm eventually going to give my WP7 phone to my girlfriend once she joins my account, as she fell in love with the phone even more than I did. At that point I'll go back to Android since it sucks less than iOS for my personal needs. Until then I'll enjoy everything else about this phone, as it is still in the top three smartphones I've ever owned.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by helf
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Thu 5th Apr 2012 20:53 UTC in reply to "Comment by helf"
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

If you read Thom's rant-icle, he's not hating on the UI, its the performance of the apps and UI that tick him off.

My biggest grievances from using it briefly are the browser and the bluetooth setup.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by helf
by helf on Thu 5th Apr 2012 20:56 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by helf"
helf Member since:
2005-07-06

I haven't used BT on it, so I can't comment on that aspect, but the browser has worked fine for me. What issues were you having?

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by helf
by Nelson on Fri 6th Apr 2012 00:01 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by helf"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Ditto. The browser actually has surprised me, it's not slow by anything I've noticed to be meaningful. I think people get caught up in synthetic benchmarks.

For example, my dual core Tegra 2 Tablet can't scroll smoothly. Is it slow? Or is it fast because it's JavaScript benchmark numbers are awesome?

Actual, real world perf matters and IE9 on WP7 doesn't really come across as slow and it's not a criticism I see levied against it often.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Comment by helf
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Fri 6th Apr 2012 20:27 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by helf"
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

The rendering of common pages. Android and IOS just do a better job of making a web page usable by default, the selection area around links is bigger and everything seems to render correctly. I can't look at the web pages in windows phone 7 and not be instantly brought back to ie 5 memories.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by helf
by Vanders on Fri 6th Apr 2012 00:36 UTC in reply to "Comment by helf"
Vanders Member since:
2005-07-06

I've been happily using WP7 since it came out. I don't get all the hate that's piled on it simply because it has a different UI.


It's not "hate...because it has a different UI." It's derision because Microsoft are yet again trying a "Me too" approach and failing.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by helf
by helf on Fri 6th Apr 2012 01:16 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by helf"
helf Member since:
2005-07-06

me too?

Metro is based off the Zune OS on their MP3 players. I'm not sure if the initial Zune players had the UI when they came out in 2006, but the 2007 players had it.

That is a long ass time. I don't see anything "me too" about this other than they knew they definitely needed something other than WM6.x's interface, which was archaic.

Unless I'm missing something ,if it was "me too", they'd be mimicking Android and iOS more... and they aren't.

Edited 2012-04-06 01:17 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by helf
by Nelson on Fri 6th Apr 2012 02:06 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by helf"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Metro was born from the guys over at Media Center, iirc. This was quite a while ago.

The UI was then transplanted onto some PlayForSure devices, notably the Gigabeat S by Toshiba. This is where you start concepts like the "Pivot" come to light.

From there, the Zune players largely stuck to this incarnation with slight revisions (The original Zunes were actually just modified Gigabeat guts).

The ZuneHd I believe is the first iteration of modern Metro with familiar animations and paradigms. From there WP7 borrowed heavily.

And of course, there's Xbox with NXE which started to go Metro, culminating with the New Dashboard update in 2011.

That's at least my recollection of events. It was even called Metro as far back as the Media Center stuff too, which is cool.

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: Comment by helf
by helf on Fri 6th Apr 2012 02:12 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by helf"
helf Member since:
2005-07-06

Thanks for the info!

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by helf
by jnemesh on Fri 6th Apr 2012 19:43 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by helf"
jnemesh Member since:
2008-04-08

The "me too" is in reference to their closed architecture and close market. They are mimicking Apple's app store mentality and taking the now traditional 30% cut of all transactions through their locked down marketplace. They also mimic Apple in that they have the ability to block "undesirable" apps from the platform for any reason! After the semi-openness of the old Windows Mobile platform, this feels just plain WRONG. I am also concerned about Apple and Microsoft's plans to extend the app store to the desktop, eliminating any choice from the customers who OWN the hardware. I will be passing on all future Microsoft products because of this.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Comment by helf
by phoehne on Sat 7th Apr 2012 15:15 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by helf"
phoehne Member since:
2006-08-26

Look at the android "openness" and you'll see they're having some problems, like malware being loaded into applications that users download from the app store. It's not necessarily true that openness leads to a better outcome for the average consumer.

It's Apple and Microsoft's operating systems so if they want to lock down users by forcing applications though their app store, it's up to them. In some ways this is better for the average consumer in that a well run app store with sandboxed applications may help reduce the ability of "evildoers" to infect or compromise end user systems. It won't make them 100% safe, but it may knock out a number of vectors for trojans and viruses.

For technical users or developers there will probably always be some kind of "out" in terms of server versions (which may not be as locked down) or development kits that have special modes so you can write device drivers or services that are accessible across sandboxes. It won't be free and open, and you may not have your pick of tools, but it will be there.

If you're not happy with this situation, you don't have to live with it. You can always download and install Linux. Should you ever "need" windows - just run it in a VM. I'm only concerned when they attempt to force hardware vendors to lock down the hardware so only "signed" operating systems can be installed, without some way to easily go into the BIOS and turn the signed O/S feature off. If I own the hardware, I should be able to install whatever I want on it, plug whatever I want into it, or even smash it to bits with a hammer, if I so choose.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Comment by helf
by phoehne on Fri 6th Apr 2012 01:32 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by helf"
phoehne Member since:
2006-08-26

I wouldn't say it's a me-too approach. Of the reviews I've read its more that they didn't get some details right. Not all those details may be important to every user, but the cumulative effect that you have a tolerable product where Microsoft needs something that's going to grab people. I actually think the UI screen shots look great. I haven't seen one in the wild since all my peeps have iPhones with a couple of Androids.

It sounds like there are some really good things about the phone but I've seen multiple stories on things like quirky twitter integration. Of course I'm just reading this from reviews. I can remember many times when Apple got panned for not having some feature (like LTE) and the reviewers moan and groan only to realize six months later that it wasn't an issue to consumers.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by helf
by No it isnt on Fri 6th Apr 2012 11:24 UTC in reply to "Comment by helf"
No it isnt Member since:
2005-11-14

I haven't seen much hate on WP7 by people who have actually used it. I see loads of bashing by the various camps of fanbois, but you really have to disregard them, don't you? Fanbois are idiots, and most of what they say about the competition are lies anyway. But hey, WP7 has its fair share of fanbois as well, with claims like "This isn't Android, you don't need 4 cores and 5 separate GPUs to get the start screen to scroll smoothly": they rarely go beyond the fucking start screen, and a slow CPU is still a slow CPU.

Reviewers of mobile phones are different, and most of them have portrayed WP7 as promising and user friendly, from what I've seen. That does not make the flaws of the platform magically go away, as you can see in the article above.

Reply Score: 3

Applians and Googlians UNITE!
by Moredhas on Thu 5th Apr 2012 20:45 UTC
Moredhas
Member since:
2008-04-10

Waste not, your slings and arrows on eachother! This thread is for bashing Microsoft! We must unite in our time of need, instead of warring over who's platform is better, we must agree that both our platforms are better than WP7!

On a serious note, though, when I was selling phones, there was a reason I didn't push WP7. Contrary to the conspiracy theories from Microsoft and Nokia, it had nothing to do with commissions. LG was paying higher commissions on their Optimus 3D, and I surely didn't push that stupid gimmick. It had everything to do with basic functionality and app ecosystem, and the "quality" of its predecessor, Windows Mobile Embedded Compact Edition 6.x. I simply had no faith in Microsoft, or in the manufacturers putting out WP7 phones, to adequately support their platform, and I had no confidence the developer base would grow. A couple of my coworkers drank the kool-aide and bought WP7 phones, and for a couple of months they loved them, in a seemingly brainwashed delirium, but after a while, the lack of apps they'd enjoyed on their iPhones, and the basic features missing from the OS itself wore on them. It's the market treatment WP7 got from vendors and Microsoft that gives me no confidence for Windows 8.

Reply Score: 8

RE: Applians and Googlians UNITE!
by Vanders on Fri 6th Apr 2012 00:40 UTC in reply to "Applians and Googlians UNITE!"
Vanders Member since:
2005-07-06

It's the market treatment WP7 got from vendors and Microsoft that gives me no confidence for Windows 8.


When WP7 was released we were told it would be amazing.
Then WP7 Mango was announced and we were told it would fix everything wrong with WP7 and that be amazing.
Now we're being told that WP8 will fix everything wrong with WP7.5 and that it will, finally, be amazing.

Reply Score: 6

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Newsflash: New versions fix problems with old versions.

Reply Score: 2

Correction
by shotsman on Fri 6th Apr 2012 06:07 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Applians and Googlians UNITE!"
shotsman Member since:
2005-07-22

New releases SELDOM fix all the major problems from the previous realease. Instead they introduce a whole new set of problems for everyone to bitch about that will never get fixed.
And so it goes on.

Reply Score: 6

JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

Problem for Microsoft is that they are doing it "at their own speed" and that is really not good in a very competitive market.

Reply Score: 2

MollyC Member since:
2006-07-04

I dont' know what you count as "amazing" (please don't say, "iPad 3"), but according to a recent user satisfaction survey, WP7 is tied with iOS for highest user satisfaction.
See the multiple charts here:
http://thenextweb.com/apple/2012/03/28/revealing-user-survey-proves...

BTW, Blackberry OS, which Topolsky scores higher than WP7, is last (and not a close last, but FAR behind, behind even the old Windows Mobile). I only point that out as evidence that Topolsky's evaluation is not "exactly right". It's partially right, but it's also partially bologna. ;)

Edited 2012-04-06 01:11 UTC

Reply Score: 2

bnolsen Member since:
2006-01-06

as a percentage of users far more fanboyz have wp7 phones than do apple or android. It's because people have had to directly request the windows phone whereas ios and android are more actively sold. So take those satisfaction numbers with a grain of salt.

Reply Score: 1

MollyC Member since:
2006-07-04

You don't like the results of the survey, I assume.

Even if I take an entire point away from the WP7 score due to "fanboy-ism" (if I were to dock for potential fanboy-ism, I'd be inclined to dock a point from iOS as well, for "Apple can do no wrong"-ism), it still scores quite high. And still would blow away Blackberry, which Topolsky, by way of his site's reviews, would claims he would recommend to his readership over WP7. That is an absurd position to take, according to user satsifaction scores. And I said elsewhere that I seriously doubt that Topolsky would choose a Blackberry device over the Lumia for his own use.

Topolsky's Lumia review has an agenda. His agenda, I believe, is to overly trash the Lumia in order to spur MS to improve WP faster.

Reply Score: 2

lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Our mobile development team (I work for one of the top Gambling Companies that are based in the UK).

Are extremely impressed with Windows Phone 7 and their only problem is that they don't like the IE7 based browser ... which is understandable.

Edited 2012-04-07 17:48 UTC

Reply Score: 2

BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

as a percentage of users far more fanboyz have wp7 phones than do apple or android.


I would love to live in your world for awhile, at the very least the colour of the sky must be amazing...

Edited 2012-04-06 12:58 UTC

Reply Score: 3

bnolsen Member since:
2006-01-06

So it bothers you guys that uptake on wp7 is really low, kiosks and cell phone stores don't push wp7 phones, MS has to resort to giving away 10's of thousands of phones. I don't know personally know *anyone* with an ms phone. For smartphones it's split apple and android (mostly samsung). All I'm saying is that the demographics differ enough to skew results of the survey. Mainstream vs niche product.

Reply Score: 2

BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

I'm not sure what any of that has to do with the part of your statement about fanboyz. I even quoted what i was responded to.

Oh, and my Brother and my coworker both have Windows phones, and my gf wants one.

Reply Score: 2

lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Like it or not many people like it and it is getting a following.

As I replied to MollyC, our dev teams love them.

I have spoken to people that have loved and hated it. I still have an old desire so at some point I will have to try a Windows Phone to see if I get one with it.

But my android phone gets used for Google Maps and Text messages ... I suppose I am not the right audience for smart phones.

Reply Score: 2

bert64 Member since:
2007-04-23

Also consider that as a percentage, more blackberry users will have been given one by work and thus have no choice over their handset...

Reply Score: 2

JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

I dont' know what you count as "amazing" (please don't say, "iPad 3"), but according to a recent user satisfaction survey, WP7 is tied with iOS for highest user satisfaction.

You can quote satisfaction surveys all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that iOS and Android are moving forward faster than WP7 is.

I am, for anecdotal example, immensely satisfied with my Nokia 2323. To the point that I would say I'm ecstatic about it. However would I give it a 10 when comparing to smartphones? Guess...

Reply Score: 3

MollyC Member since:
2006-07-04

I wouldn't give a 10 to any smartphone.

The person that I referred the survey to was making the sarcastic implication that WP7 was utter garbage, and I was merely providing evidence to refute that.

As for the Nokia 2323, you say that you love the device (and I assume you are "satisfied" with it), but you say you would not score it a 10 in a user survey. By which I assume that you contend that satisfied Nokia 2323 users would not give the device a 10 (or, I assume an average 8.7) in a user survey. But WP users did give WP an average 8.7 score.

Nokia 2323 users that are "satisfied" with the device but feel that its lack of functionality prevents them from giving it a high score in a survey are not comparable to WP users that are satisfied and don't feel there's a lack of functionality that prevents them from giving it a high score in a survey. The scenarios are not analogous.

Edited 2012-04-06 07:32 UTC

Reply Score: 2

JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

You might want to check why I wouldn't give 2323 10 comparing it to smartphones:
http://www.gsmarena.com/nokia_2323_classic-2571.php

But overall, I would give it 10. Hands down.

Reply Score: 2

lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Missing the point of the post.

The original by Vanders claims was that Windows Phone 7 was crap and there is evidence to dispute that.

It is irrelevant to that argument whether Android and iOS are moving faster. It wasn't part of the argument.

Edited 2012-04-07 17:58 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Moredhas Member since:
2008-04-10

You have to remember, most iOS users are experiencing it through a layer of crumbling glass fragments getting lodged in their fingertips. I don't think these people can be counted on for an accurate description of a good user experience.

Reply Score: 2

wargum Member since:
2006-12-15

BTW, Blackberry OS, which Topolsky scores higher than WP7, is last (and not a close last, but FAR behind, behind even the old Windows Mobile).


Yeah, but at the end of the day, BB get's the job done. The current BB OS may not be pretty, but it's feature rich (just like Symbian).

Reply Score: 2

RE: Applians and Googlians UNITE!
by bassbeast on Sun 8th Apr 2012 09:45 UTC in reply to "Applians and Googlians UNITE!"
bassbeast Member since:
2007-11-11

And THIS, this right here, if why i think WinPhone and Win 8 ARM is gonna bomb. MSFT didn't learn for the critical mistake made by Sega all those years ago in that if you burn people too often they won't give you another chance. Everyone i know has been burnt by WinMo 1 too many times and now WinPhone isn't even on their radar, all they ask me about is what i think of this or that Android phone.

Reply Score: 2

Dimmer
by CapEnt on Thu 5th Apr 2012 21:08 UTC
CapEnt
Member since:
2005-12-18

Quite curious that a phone named "Lumia" made today the Nokia's future look even more dim.

Reply Score: 3

I'll pass on Windows Phone
by WorknMan on Thu 5th Apr 2012 21:29 UTC
WorknMan
Member since:
2005-11-13

As long as it continues to depend on the bloated, POS Zune software, I will continue to pass on Windows Phone. Of course, I know what's coming next.... "But, but ... Zune is better than iTunes!!" As I always say though, when you're comparing something to one of the worst pieces of software ever written for Windows, that isn't saying a whole lot. I'm not going to argue over which one is better... it's like seeing two butt ugly chicks on the street and arguing which one looks better/worse. When all is said and done with, if you wouldn't f**k either one of them even with somebody else's penis, it really doesn't matter, does it?

Reply Score: 4

RE: I'll pass on Windows Phone
by lucas_maximus on Sat 7th Apr 2012 18:01 UTC in reply to "I'll pass on Windows Phone"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

What is wrong with the Zune software?

If you say bloated .. it ain't, it starts off in less than a second on my PC, my PC is 5 years old ... it also looks nice while playing music.

Also Bloated ... really comon.

The renaming support of existing Music Libraries is better than anything else.

Reply Score: 2

What pass?
by Yamin on Thu 5th Apr 2012 21:57 UTC
Yamin
Member since:
2006-01-10

I don't really think people give windows phone a pass. It is a pretty good 'base' phone. Almost all reviews say that.

But most review and people acknowledge the lack of quality apps. That is really the only worthwhile criticism in the article. The 3rd party apps aren't very good (don't scroll properly...). The browser was good for the sites I tried.

I just did a quick google on reviews... and they certainly don't give it a pass. They actually say the same thing in the article.

http://www.engadget.com/2011/09/27/windows-phone-7-5-mango-review/
nitpicks on the mutltitasking, other issues

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2012/04/05/review-hands-on-with-noki... (yeah... google gave me it )
deals with the lack of quality apps


I think most reviews of Windows Phone have been pretty reasonable (as much as reviews of most smartphones) and no one is giving it a pass. It's also a matter of expectations. A lot of reviews just review the base install and not the apps as well.

Reply Score: 3

RE: What pass?
by JAlexoid on Fri 6th Apr 2012 06:12 UTC in reply to "What pass?"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

Every single review(that has a conclusion/recommendation section) says that it's not a "good enough phone"(at least). iOS and Android have moved faster than WP7.

As for the "pass", it's about scoring the overall device and giving it the benefit of the doubt.
TheVerge put the numbers onto the components of the Lumia 900 taking that into account - Ecosystem = 4.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: What pass?
by MollyC on Fri 6th Apr 2012 07:41 UTC in reply to "RE: What pass?"
MollyC Member since:
2006-07-04

OK, now I see you have an agenda, and I shouldn't have wasted my time replying to you earlier (I thought you were arguing in good faith; I see now that I was wrong). Every single review says it's "not good enough phone"? What does that even mean? That it's totally unusable? There is no review that says that. There are some reviews saying "not good enough to recommend over iPHone or Android", but none that says "not a good enough phone, period". And to claim that EVERY review says that is totally absurd.
Besides that, there are indeed there are reviews of high praise for the Lumia 900.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: What pass?
by JAlexoid on Fri 6th Apr 2012 10:25 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: What pass?"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

Agenda? My view of WP7 is neutral today. Microsoft - highly critical. WP7 - neutral.

As for the "good enough phone" comment, it's about Lumia 900 being touted as the device that will put WP7 on the map to compete against iPhone and top tier Android devices. The reviewers say it's not.

And to claim that EVERY review says that is totally absurd.

Every reasonably objective and reputable review, yes.
The Verge did come down really hard on WP7, but it's not much harder than most others.

Microsoft is now more interested in Win8, than WP7. That is a big problem for WP7 adoption, no matter how you look at it.
Microsoft is barely doing anything for WP7 today(just compare it to last year). That is why the scores are sliding. That is why the reviews get much more critical.
Apple isn't sitting on their laurels. HTC is reinventing itself with One using Android. Google's Android team is pushing as well.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: What pass?
by lucas_maximus on Sat 7th Apr 2012 18:02 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: What pass?"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

You don't like any Microsoft Products ... that makes you have an agenda.

You might as well have the username Lemur2 on here and say you aren't biased about the fact you get hot in the pants for KDE 4.X

Edited 2012-04-07 18:03 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: What pass?
by JAlexoid on Mon 9th Apr 2012 22:32 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: What pass?"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

Hm... Then I must throw out my XBox360 with Kinect. Thanks for reminding me.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: What pass?
by bassbeast on Sun 8th Apr 2012 09:58 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: What pass?"
bassbeast Member since:
2007-11-11

He doesn't have an agenda that I can see, he just doesn't make his posts very readable.

The problem with Lumia AIN'T the hardware, its the OS. all the reviewers frankly give it more points than they should because the hardware is very nice.

The problem is to make a comparison its like Nokia just came out with this awesome hardware running Windows XP because its pretty clear from everything that MSFT has been saying and doing that they are gonna bet the farm on Win 8 (which i personally think is gonna make WinME look like Win95 its gonna bomb so hard) and as we have seen time and time again MSFT really has a one track mind so frankly WinPhone 7 might as well be DOA. Sure they'll do a few token releases, fix a few bugs, add a few features, but all the money and effort is going into WOA.

So I'd say anybody that buys a WinPhone 7 based device right now has to be more than a little nuts, because in 6 months win 8 will be out and WinPhone will go the way of Vista. The apps simply aren't there and rather than investing in app development MSFT is gonna throw WinPhone under a bus for Win 8 and the app devs know this so the app situation won't be getting any better. It doesn't matter if 'it feels happy" its going on the cart, period.

Reply Score: 2

I think managed code is the problem.
by MollyC on Thu 5th Apr 2012 23:25 UTC
MollyC
Member since:
2006-07-04

Poor app performance is due to incompetence wrt Silverlight programming. WP8 will allow native (i.e. bare metal, non-Silverlight) 3rd party apps, which i think will fix that problem. MS wanted to mandate Silverlight (or XNA) managed code in order for security reasons (Android has malware, WP7 does not), but they're going to bite the bullet and allow native coded apps in WP8.

Secondly, they're going support multi-core CPUs in WP8. THey didn't want to do that in order to hold costs down and improve battery life (for example, Lumia has twice the battery life of a Galaxy Nexus), but they're going to go with multi-core with WP8.

Everyonw knows that Android runs like absolute garbage on a single-core CPU. WP7 blows away Android on a core-for-core measuring stick, but in real life Android is using dual and quad-core, so in real life Android out performs WP wrt 3rd-party apps.

But I think Silverlight is the main issue. Lumia 900 on a single core keeps up with the 2-core Galaxy Nexus as long as bare-metal (non-Silverlight) apps are used.

See this youTube comoparison video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkifKnNmeVg

Reply Score: 2

MollyC Member since:
2006-07-04

Having said the above, a couple things on Topolky's review that I have a beef with.

First, he says there's nothing WP does better than Android or iOS. The video I posted in the above comment disproves that as regard to Android.

Second, Topolky scores the Lumia 900's OS a '5', which is lower than his site scores Blackberry OS. Which means that, if Topolsky had a gun to his head and was forced to use either a WP decice or a Blackberry device for the next 12 months (hardware being equal), he'd choose the Blackberry device. I simply do not believe that he'd actually make that choice. I can't prove it, but I don't believe it. If so, then rather than talk of giving WP a pass he might have to talk about his own site giving Blackberry OS a pass. There's a video of Josh comparing Blackberry device with a WP7 phone, where the Blackberry device was stuttering all over the place, and Topolsky condemned that as acting like an "old" phone, and Topolsky then praised the WP device as acting like a smooth modern phone. But now he scores WP lower than Blackberry as the OS he'd recommend to his readership?

Third, Topolsky has made numerous criticisms of iOS UI in his podcasts, but when it comes time to review an iOS device, he never decreases the device's review score. Meaning, he's giving iOS UI "a pass", by definition (criticizing it in podcasts, but not doing it in reviews).

Topolsky also has the "Windows 7 is poison" statement hanging around his neck, which unfortunately has allowed folks to label him an anti-Microsoft fanboy and thus discredit anything he has to say wrt Microsoft. He shouldv'e let Chris Zeigler do the Lumia review. Zeigler says that he agrees with Topolsky's Lumia review, so the score wouldn't have changed, but the review would be more credible since Zeigler lacks any anti-Microsoft reputation/baggage.

Reply Score: 4

phoehne Member since:
2006-08-26

I agree with your take on managed code. On something like a lower power, memory constrained device - go native.

Reply Score: 1

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

I don't entirely agree. I think that managed code can still be an answer, but the design of the frameworks has to be something carefully done.

It is actually quite astounding how the WinDiv inside Microsoft did in a few years what DevDiv couldn't, which is make a XAML stack blindingly fast and fluid.

Silverlight is just a bunch of compromises for cross platform (Remember, the thing started as a cross platform BROWSER PLUGIN).

- XAML is parsed, not compiled (Honestly, not sure if this is still the case in WinRT, but I know WPF uses compiled XAML)
- Software rasterization, even for pixel effects. The only HW acceleration are GPU cache'd surfaces with BitmapCaching and (WP7 and SL5 only) composite thread animations like Opacity and RenderTransforms.
- On WP7 it uses the .NETCF which I would bet has code gen which isn't up to par for ARM. I remember reading somewhere that the Windows team made their ARM JITTer very efficient for the Metro Profile on Windows 8.

All in all, I wouldn't let a so-so (Because let me make this clear, it has rough edges but it's far from TERRIBLE.) experience on WP7 with managed code make you sour on the idea.

I believe the idea can work.

Reply Score: 2

tanzam75 Member since:
2011-05-19

Well, consider that WinDiv is many times the size of DevDiv. And that they used Silverlight as a guide for designing the WinRT API -- but removed half of the functions.

True, they had to write the runtime from scratch in C++. But remember that they had C# source code to look at as they were doing this rewrite. It's a lot easier to rewrite C# code in C++ than to write it from scratch the first time around.

In other words, they had a very constrained problem space. That left plenty of time for performance tuning, refactoring, etc.

Reply Score: 1

pos3 Member since:
2010-06-25

"Everyonw knows that Android runs like absolute garbage on a single-core CPU" - I am using optimus one 600mhz cpu with Android 2.3. It working fine that you.
WP7 UI is too simple and not that good looking.

Reply Score: 1

WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

Poor app performance is due to incompetence wrt Silverlight programming. WP8 will allow native (i.e. bare metal, non-Silverlight) 3rd party apps, which i think will fix that problem.


I don't think the issue is managed-language vs. native code, that shouldn't affect things like e.g. scrolling. I think it is simply the fact that developers are yet unaware of how to properly optimize their code for WP7, and possibly Microsoft should work on that; it is certainly within their power to restructure things in order to make it easier to get fluid UIs developed more easily.

MS wanted to mandate Silverlight (or XNA) managed code in order for security reasons (Android has malware, WP7 does not)


The language being managed code or not bears no significance there. The fact is that Google just does a really, really shoddy work with their Play Market whereas Microsoft does a much more thorough job with their own market.

Android also allows the installation of applications from outside sources whereas WP7 doesn't, that makes a huge difference. It is generally very easy to fool people into enabling the setting that allows one to install stuff outside the Play Market and then installing this or that from a less-than-trustworthy source. One should not forget simple greed either; there's plenty of ways of obtaining illegitimate copies of Android games and apps, and those often carry some "extra" with them.

Basically, WP7 is more locked-down and Microsoft does better job with their own market than Google does with theirs.

Secondly, they're going support multi-core CPUs in WP8. THey didn't want to do that in order to hold costs down and improve battery life (for example, Lumia has twice the battery life of a Galaxy Nexus), but they're going to go with multi-core with WP8.


That was indeed quite short-sighted from Microsoft. It was perfectly clear already back when WP7 was being developed that the route forward on mobile devices will be multi-core systems. These days it's often actually cheaper to obtain multi-core SoCs than single-core ones.

Reply Score: 7

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29


I don't think the issue is managed-language vs. native code, that shouldn't affect things like e.g. scrolling. I think it is simply the fact that developers are yet unaware of how to properly optimize their code for WP7, and possibly Microsoft should work on that; it is certainly within their power to restructure things in order to make it easier to get fluid UIs developed more easily.


It's a combination of both, as I alluded to in my post below. Having a top heavy managed framework means you're allocating more heap objects, which makes Garbage Collections more costly.

With UI virtualization, the recycling of out of view containers becomes a CPU bound bottleneck. This was made dramatically better with Windows Phone 7.5 though. It's mostly a non issue.


That was indeed quite short-sighted from Microsoft. It was perfectly clear already back when WP7 was being developed that the route forward on mobile devices will be multi-core systems. These days it's often actually cheaper to obtain multi-core SoCs than single-core ones.


The problem with that was that WP7 still uses WinCE, which in the available incarnation at the time, didn't use multicore. SMP only landed in CE7, which didn't mesh with the roadmap at the time.

Besides, now that they're moving to NT, I predict a lot of the development will get easier, and thus faster. They'll have the full force and blessing (not to mention resources) of WinDiv behind them too. WP7 was always the brain child of the E&D division.

Reply Score: 2

JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

WP8 will allow native

That is the problem right there. Microsoft has shifted it's focus once again. WP7 is left out cold till Win8 arrives. As a developer, will you be rewriting you app every 2 years that Microsoft likes to switch their focus that dramatically?

managed code in order for security reasons (Android has malware, WP7 does not)

Managed vs native has little to do with it. See iOS.

for example, Lumia has twice the battery life of a Galaxy Nexus

Anand will disagree. In fact most reviewers disagree, stating that Lumia has battery life that is in tune with other modern smartphones.

Everyonw knows that Android runs like absolute garbage on a single-core CPU.

Except it's, in your words, "garbage". All 2011 SonyEricssons, Galaxy S and Nexus S are less powerful than any of the Lumia line(except the unreleased 610). SE's run like a dream. Nexus S on GB was good enough and on ICS runs very well.

But I think Silverlight is the main issue.

The main issue is the attention deficit at Microsoft. But I doubt that their shareholders are willing to live through another XBox...

Reply Score: 7

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29


That is the problem right there. Microsoft has shifted it's focus once again. WP7 is left out cold till Win8 arrives. As a developer, will you be rewriting you app every 2 years that Microsoft likes to switch their focus that dramatically?


Wtf? You won't have to rewrite your app. They've already stated all current apps will be supported in the next platform. Whatever direction they decide to go in.

WinRT would theoretically augment the platform, not completely replace. They're not going to throw away 80k apps. Android didn't do it when they released the NDK.

Let's be a little realistic here, please.


Anand will disagree. In fact most reviewers disagree, stating that Lumia has battery life that is in tune with other modern smartphones.


Depends on which Lumia. I can't speak for the Lumia 900, but after the firmware updates the Lumia 800 has incredible battery life. Easily besting most smartphones I've used.

Time will tell, I've found a lot of reviews on battery life to be misleading in the past. So once this thing gets into people's hands, we'll see.


Except it's, in your words, "garbage". All 2011 SonyEricssons, Galaxy S and Nexus S are less powerful than any of the Lumia line(except the unreleased 610). SE's run like a dream. Nexus S on GB was good enough and on ICS runs very well.


As a former Nexus S owner, you're being ridiculous. That thing was unbelievably frustrating to use with Gingerbread. It's still amazing to me how people put up with such a poor experience.

Plus, the SGX540 in the Nexus S is dramatically faster than the Adreno 205 in the Lumia 900.

So no, actually, you're wrong. The Lumia is doing more with significantly less.

But I think Silverlight is the main issue.

The main issue is the attention deficit at Microsoft. But I doubt that their shareholders are willing to live through another XBox... [/q]

Why exactly? I don't get the invisible phantom threat of Microsoft shareholders when the company has been consistently overperforming in the last decade. They don't much care, and if mobile goes anything like Xbox, then they're probably game.

Reply Score: 2

JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

You won't have to rewrite your app. They've already stated all current apps will be supported in the next platform. Whatever direction they decide to go in.

Your framework will be in "maintenance mode" and will not get any improvements. So unless you will be just maintaining your app, you will have to rewrite it in WinRT.

As a former Nexus S owner, you're being ridiculous. That thing was unbelievably frustrating to use with Gingerbread. It's still amazing to me how people put up with such a poor experience.

Because they actually had something to do. The "poor experience" you describe is noticeable UI lag, that is no longer there in ICS on the same Nexus S.

Plus, the SGX540 in the Nexus S is dramatically faster than the Adreno 205 in the Lumia 900.

Aaaa.... No. MSM8255/APQ8055 @ 1Ghz is just beaten by Hummingbird's SGX540, Lumia 900 is @ 1.4GHz. CPU is considerably faster on Lumia 900.

http://www.mobiletechworld.com/2010/12/18/opengl-es-2-0-benchmark-a...

Why exactly? I don't get the invisible phantom threat of Microsoft shareholders when the company has been consistently overperforming in the last decade. They don't much care, and if mobile goes anything like Xbox, then they're probably game.

They were performing consistently well, but their growth markets are stalled in the market.
And XBox has not yet completed it's ROI, when you count in the associated acquisitions. It's going there, fast, but not there yet.

Reply Score: 3

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29


Your framework will be in "maintenance mode" and will not get any improvements. So unless you will be just maintaining your app, you will have to rewrite it in WinRT.


You mean as opposed to the maintenance app developers do now? If you've written an application, you won't lose your investment. It'll fully run on the next major version.

Beside that, WinRT and Silverlight are extremely similar, and properly written code transfers over mostly well.

I'm basing this off of my experience with porting Windows Phone 7 apps to WinRT. It actually was mostly seamless.

On top of that, if you recompile your application as a "Portable Library" (Look up the project on MSDN) a lot of the incompatibilities (in so far as namespace changes, subtle type changes in Reflection, etc. ) all go away.

The issue is a lot less pronounced, and really nothing more spectacular than other breaking SDK changes on other platforms.


Because they actually had something to do. The "poor experience" you describe is noticeable UI lag, that is no longer there in ICS on the same Nexus S.


So when are we going to stop making excuses for Android? How many people have a Nexus S with ICS? The thing came out like a day ago.

So people have been putting up with (and you admit) poor experience up until now? An experience which is by any sane measure, poorer than that on even the 800Mhz Windows Phones?

I mean, let's be serious, how could people make excuses for something so terrible, for so long?


Aaaa.... No. MSM8255/APQ8055 @ 1Ghz is just beaten by Hummingbird's SGX540, Lumia 900 is @ 1.4GHz. CPU is considerably faster on Lumia 900.

http://www.mobiletechworld.com/2010/12/18/opengl-es-2-0-benchmark-a...


From the article:
"But it should also be noted that the Adreno 200 and 205 CPUs are always running a 16bit depth buffer while the SGX5XX are in 24bit (the same applies to the Tegra 2 which is also currently only set at 16bit)."

That's the kicker, whereas the Adreno 205 has noticeable dithering, the SGX is running at a near full fidelity for the display its own. Surprise, 16 bits per pixel beats 24 bits per pixels because of bandwidth constraints.

Were the tests equal, the SGX would more than hold its own. It is actually the faster GPU.

While the CPU does factor in to a degree into GPU performance, it is not to the extent that you would let on.


They were performing consistently well, but their growth markets are stalled in the market.
And XBox has not yet completed it's ROI, when you count in the associated acquisitions. It's going there, fast, but not there yet.


So "It's going there, fast, .." is a cry for shareholder revolt? Give me a break. Take a business class.

People have been saying the same tired bs for years.

Reply Score: 2

dsmogor Member since:
2005-09-01

Android features both managed and native apps but its security spurs from the permissions mechanism and unix fs based sandboxing. It has nothing to do with being managed or not.
The lack of malware in WP7 comes from both poor platform uptake and MS Apple like review process .

Reply Score: 4

jnemesh Member since:
2008-04-08

Android runs just fine on my single core Galaxy S.

Reply Score: 2

juzzlin Member since:
2011-05-06

Android runs just fine on my single core Galaxy S.


It runs just fine also on my single core HTC Desire. These "old" Android super phones were fast and still are.

Reply Score: 1

The problem is a few things:
by Nelson on Thu 5th Apr 2012 23:52 UTC
Nelson
Member since:
2005-11-29

First:
MollyC is right, a lot of the core paradigms in Silverlight did not correctly match up with a low-performance device. Even at 1GHz, there were some pain points. Some are less painful since the 7.5 update, but some still remain.

UI virtualization performance pre 7.5 was horrendous. It was so terrible, that we as developers employed all sorts of black magic to make scrolling some-what smooth. However, once 7.5 Mango fixed scrolling in large part, the tricks we used prior became detrimental to performance.

Silverlight and largely WPF aren't really ready for general consumption wrt the fact that you need to know the relative costs of a lot of layout, effects, animations, caching, etc.

Then there's the standard managed code overhead, and the fact that these ARM processors aren't really that fast to begin with. It's noticeable during app loading scenarios, heavy math computation, especially during gaming.

Secondly:
There is no coherent asynchronous programming story in WP7 as there is with WinRT. In WinRT there's Task of T and the async/await C# keywords (PPL in C++, Promises in Javascript) which bring a sort of elegance to async programming that was never there.

In WP7 there's BackgroundWorkers(+Dispatcher) which is so obtuse it's not even funny, there's the Rx Framework which is extremely difficult to grasp, but powerful when you understand it, and there's the ThreadPool which is clumsy and can hurt performance.

Couple that with stupid design decisions on MSFTs part like WebClient returns network data on the UI thread, which is why a lot of apps which use it experience the slowdown Thom mentioned during network requests..essentially their processing the network data on the UI thread..blocking input. You could always marshal it, but it's an advanced subject. Then there's HttpWebRequest which again is outside of what most people research.

Third:
The underlying guts of the framework aren't very well optimized. Silverlight is still extremely clumsy at rendering things fluidly. Silverlight on Windows Phone uses Direct2D and DirectWrite which is to be thanked for the Mango perf improvements, but it's still not enough.

The savior:
WinRT and the NT Kernel are the second coming of Christ for Windows Phone, if the rumors pan out and they port them over.

The Windows Runtime moves a lot of the XAML and associated Visual Tree in native code. They're just thinly marshaled into Managed code, which is less expensive than having for having all of this in top-heavy C# code.

The graphics architecture is undoubtedly more optimized (Drivers using time-tested WDDM Frameworks and Acceleration Paths)

Basically everything is just faster. Comparing Silverlight 5 performance to WinRT performance is like night and day.

However, despite all of this, you can go very far with the current tools and SDK if you know the painpoints and how to work around them. If you know how to use a profiler. If you know how to analyze a memory usage histogram. If you know how to effectively use the Bitmap Cache.

Things will get better, insofar as rookie developers won't have many bullets with which to shoot themselves in the foot.

Reply Score: 4

RE: The problem is a few things:
by helf on Fri 6th Apr 2012 01:21 UTC in reply to "The problem is a few things:"
helf Member since:
2005-07-06

Thanks for this post. A lot of interesting info summed up nicely ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE: The problem is a few things:
by JAlexoid on Fri 6th Apr 2012 06:30 UTC in reply to "The problem is a few things:"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

WinRT and the NT Kernel are the second coming of Christ for Windows Phone, if the rumors pan out and they port them over.

Pray that it's not too late.

Reply Score: 2

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Windows Phone isn't going to fall off of a cliff in 6 months. If anything, the Lumia has helped the sales of the OS accelerate. Nokia is proving instrumental here.

Reply Score: 3

JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

Windows Phone isn't going to fall off of a cliff in 6 months.

Yes, it's just going to be pushed off the cliff by competition.

Reply Score: 4

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Evidenced off of what exactly? Your own delusion?

All signs point to accelerating Windows Phone sales and awareness, and they are on the eve on their largest launch ever.

I really don't understand how this translates to being crushed by the competition. The mobile space is quite possibly the fastest changing landscape in the industry, yet some would have this contest set and decided.

How quickly people forget that Nokia was once a leader in the space, Palm was once a leader in the space, and Microsoft was once a leader in the space.

Hell look at the once invincible RIM.

Things change extremely quickly.

Reply Score: 2

RE: The problem is a few things:
by dsmogor on Fri 6th Apr 2012 09:43 UTC in reply to "The problem is a few things:"
dsmogor Member since:
2005-09-01

So much for the ms mobile dev kit superiority compared to competition...

Reply Score: 3

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Don't get me wrong. It's lightyears ahead of Android development. Don't even get me started on what a complete, unusable, piece of shit Eclipse is.

Besides, scrolling perf on Android isn't good anyway you slice it. It's just not all the way there yet, for difference reasons, but still.

Reply Score: 3

JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

Don't even get me started on what a complete, unusable, piece of shit Eclipse is.

VS has a steep learning curve as well.
VS is a total "complete, unusable, piece of shit" when it comes to Java development, BTW.

Besides, scrolling perf on Android isn't good anyway you slice it. It's just not all the way there yet, for difference reasons, but still.

You're 5 months late with that misconception. There are other misconceptions for you to fall back to, you know.

Reply Score: 4

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29


VS has a steep learning curve as well.
VS is a total "complete, unusable, piece of shit" when it comes to Java development, BTW.


Eclipse is terrible when using it for what it was intended for. Anyone who makes excuses for the poor experience when developing Android apps is delusional. The thing is unbearably slow, frustrating, and unpleasant.

I'm not even talking about the learning curve, because that's anywhere. The experience itself is terribly poor.

There's plenty of instances of other developers echoing my sentiment, and in fact, once of WP7's areas of high praise are in its very polished development tools.


You're 5 months late with that misconception. There are other misconceptions for you to fall back to, you know.


The same thing was said when Honeycomb came out, but nope, scrolling performance is still hard to get right.

Its just not easy when there's a JIT and a Garbage Collector involved. The same is true on WP7 and on Android.

WP7 alleviates this significantly by having a separate Input Thread and Composition Thread for independent animations.

My experience has been that it actually makes the experience slower on some devices for whatever reasons. Its never iOS or WP7 smooth in a lot of instances.

Besides this, Android is considerably more CPU limited than WP7 wrt HW accel. This is probably due to there being no independent animations or compositor threads.

For example, on WP7 if I completely block the UI thread, my independent animations on the GPU will still run at 60 FPS. This is because I hand off the BitmapCache's and the Render Transform animations to the GPU and it does its thing.

Try doing that with Android. It's a small example, but it's indicative of the lack of maturity in the Android gfx stack.

The input lag is still very noticeable, everywhere, on my ICS Transformer.

Reply Score: 2

Topolsky is a fanboi
by windywoo on Fri 6th Apr 2012 01:46 UTC
windywoo
Member since:
2011-03-01

He squeals with glee every time a new Apple product emerges. If you ever read his reviews on Engadget you would see that any "criticisms" are never reflected in the final score. Any Android devices would have points deducted but not his precious Apple toys. I watched him gush on some US chatshow over the animation of the iBooks app on the original iPad. It was like a sales pitch.

Apple's crap has been consistently lacking in features up until iPhone4 and iOS5 when it actually caught up. That was 3 iPhone models and 4 iterations of iOS that got a "pass". Reviewers are so distracted by the shiny, it's almost like they forget they're supposed to be somewhat impartial.

There is no way Metro is a "me too" UI.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Topolsky is a fanboi
by MollyC on Fri 6th Apr 2012 01:56 UTC in reply to "Topolsky is a fanboi"
MollyC Member since:
2006-07-04

Very accurate description of Topolskyism. ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE: Topolsky is a fanboi
by tpchur on Fri 6th Apr 2012 03:33 UTC in reply to "Topolsky is a fanboi"
tpchur Member since:
2007-02-12

You do know that Topolsky rated the Verizon Galaxy Nexus higher than the iPhone 4S, right? In his review he gave the Verizon GNex a 8.7 and the iPhone 4S a 8.6. With the amount of problems the GNex had in its infancy I would hardly call him an Apple fanboy.

Reply Score: 2

Dear Microsoft
by tuma324 on Fri 6th Apr 2012 01:54 UTC
tuma324
Member since:
2010-04-09

Fuck You.

Reply Score: 1

v RE: Dear Microsoft
by MollyC on Fri 6th Apr 2012 07:47 UTC in reply to "Dear Microsoft"
RE[2]: Dear Microsoft
by Thom_Holwerda on Fri 6th Apr 2012 08:08 UTC in reply to "RE: Dear Microsoft"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

It was actually an Apple person that upvoted it.

Don't make assumptions you can't back with evidence.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Dear Microsoft
by helf on Fri 6th Apr 2012 15:51 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Dear Microsoft"
helf Member since:
2005-07-06

Regardless, I do find it telling that his comment wasn't vote to oblivion while my initial one was at least knocked down a few notches.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Dear Microsoft
by MollyC on Sat 7th Apr 2012 01:17 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Dear Microsoft"
MollyC Member since:
2006-07-04

I said that it was an anti-Microsoft fanboy, and you "corrected" me by saying it was an Apple-fanboy, as if those are mutually-exclusive categories. A person upgrading a "Microsoft, fuck you" comment is almost by definition an anti-Microsoft fanboy (that such a person might also be a pro-Apple fanboy doesn't change that).

The comment should've been downgraded into oblivion. Other comments in this thread have been unjustly downgraded into oblivion, yet that one remains?

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Dear Microsoft
by MOS6510 on Sat 7th Apr 2012 17:37 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Dear Microsoft"
MOS6510 Member since:
2011-05-12

Thom said it was an Apple person, he didn't say fanboy.

I voted this comment up, because despite it being rude I found it funny because it was short and stupid.

Indeed I am an Apple person and I have an iPhone, but I also have a Lumia 800 and I think MS-DOS/NT4/Windows 7 are cool. Actually I prefer Commodore over Apple (hence the Commodore logo and not an Apple one), but they are RIP. I still love my Psion 3a, Sharp palm computers and make money with Linux, AIX and Windows system administration. Despite being into Commodore I have great respect and interest for Spectrum computers and even Atari ones.

So I don't think you can label me, based on a single +1, as being a mindless member of some herd.

Reply Score: 1

To Each Their Own
by Lorin on Fri 6th Apr 2012 05:24 UTC
Lorin
Member since:
2010-04-06

Wait until that mess known as Windows 8 comes out, lucky for us we do have choices

Reply Score: 3

RE: To Each Their Own
by dsmogor on Fri 6th Apr 2012 09:46 UTC in reply to "To Each Their Own"
dsmogor Member since:
2005-09-01

Yes, MS is the best company to promote choice, that for sure...

Reply Score: 6

Comment by kovacm
by kovacm on Fri 6th Apr 2012 06:59 UTC
kovacm
Member since:
2010-12-16

We've reached this point, it would seem. The Lumia represents the best of the best of the Windows Phone world, and it simply doesn't stack up to the competition. The combined financial and human resources of Microsoft and Nokia have been unable to deliver a platform that can measure up to the competition when the training wheels are off.


* You cannot buy innovation *

http://www.asymco.com/2012/01/30/you-cannot-buy-innovation/

Microsoft and Nokia spent more money and had more people in R&D and they still cannot make quality competition to iOS?


Why is that? Maybe because it is in M$ DNA - to produce shits.


In 80s, while M$ struggle to make usable graphical interface on top of DOS (Windows), other companies that had GUIs for years was thinking forward: e.g. "how to make GUI on two monitors", "how to overcome FAT filename limit of 8+3"....

Reply Score: 3

RE: Comment by kovacm
by MollyC on Fri 6th Apr 2012 07:46 UTC in reply to "Comment by kovacm"
MollyC Member since:
2006-07-04

Like anyone that uses "M$" has any credibility. LOL
Let me ask, was it you that uprated the "Microsoft, Fuck You" comment?

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by kovacm
by kokara4a on Fri 6th Apr 2012 10:12 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by kovacm"
kokara4a Member since:
2005-09-16

Well, Microsoft are a convicted monopolist. And I think they've done much more wrong they haven't been convicted for. Go ask Jean-Louis Gassée. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

What is more important is that they make crappy products. I have to admit, WinXP was a solid working horse for more than a decade. And Windows 7 is very fast and stable. But it's still crappy. Ok, that's just a personal opinion but I'm entirely entitled to it. Just today I wanted to change some notification area settings in Win 7. The list of different system tray apps is too long to fit in the windows that opens. And you know what - the mouse scroll wheel doesn't work in this window. WTF?! And when shall I be able to use Ctrl-Backspace to delete the word to the left of the cursor. It works in most text editing applications. Why doesn't it work in a file rename in Windows Explorer, for instance? What is the meaning of the small rectangle that it generates? And I have many more examples. You can argue that these are small things or they don't concern you. Great! But that's just your opinion, man! Mine is different. I wonder how is it possible for the biggest software company in the world to be so clueless?! The only possible answer is that they are indeed M$. They don't care for you if this doesn't bring them more money. Presumably that's what companies exist for. But I don't have to like to be treated like a cash cow.

Yes, my beloved Linux has its problems too. But I still love it. For me it's easier to use, more logical, more discoverable and, dare I say, cheaper. It may not be for everybody. So be it. I'll take it over everything M$ has to offer. I'm talking from experience here.

Reply Score: 6

RE[3]: Comment by kovacm
by Nelson on Fri 6th Apr 2012 12:20 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by kovacm"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Yeah, no. Linux on the Desktop is nowhere near Windows wrt usability.

Even recently, my experience has been mildly frustrating out of the box.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Comment by kovacm
by shotsman on Fri 6th Apr 2012 19:45 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by kovacm"
shotsman Member since:
2005-07-22

If you mean that Windows is frustrating then I'm 100% behind you.
Windows 7 is just in your face seemingly all the time.
PErmission to do this, permission to do that....
A script might create a directory yet have no rights to write anything to it.
I had to download RealPlayer (I didn't want to install Slitherlight). Not only was the wrong version downloaded (32bit instead of 64) the frigging thing installed some bit of crud called Norton in the background.
My main dev system is CentOS. It is a breath of fresh air to go back to the sanity of Linux.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment by kovacm
by Nelson on Fri 6th Apr 2012 21:27 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by kovacm"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Lesson learned: Next time install Silverlight? I mean serious, what the fuck man.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Comment by kovacm
by helf on Fri 6th Apr 2012 21:02 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by kovacm"
helf Member since:
2005-07-06

Well, that depends. I'll defend WP7, but I'll also defend 'Linux' on the desktop. I run FC16 on my laptop, which I use more than my tower (which is running win7 for phone syncing and various other things), and I absolutely love it. I've run various linux distros for years, though, so I might be a bit biased ;)

And, yes, I'm a *nix nut yet I still use WP7. ;)

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: Comment by kovacm
by Soulbender on Sat 7th Apr 2012 05:37 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by kovacm"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Even recently, my experience has been mildly frustrating out of the box.


Hey, just what my experience with Windows has been since the start. I therefore conclude that it's nowhere near anything else in terms of usability.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Comment by kovacm
by MOS6510 on Fri 6th Apr 2012 09:58 UTC in reply to "Comment by kovacm"
MOS6510 Member since:
2011-05-12

Considering the money, experience and smart people Microsoft has combined with examples of good products of other companies it's amazing they can't create something brilliant themselves.

Even so I think with WP and Windows 8 they are showing they're at least willing to 'think different'. And Windows 7 is pretty good.

Perhaps they're just too large and lack teamwork to provide all the integration Apple is able to produce with their products.

Maybe they should spin off a few people, have them create a couple of teams that work close together to build great stuff.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by kovacm
by Soulbender on Sat 7th Apr 2012 05:32 UTC in reply to "Comment by kovacm"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

* You cannot buy innovation *

Microsoft and Nokia spent more money and had more people in R&D and they still cannot make quality competition to iOS?


Spending money on R&D is not "buying innovation", it is innovating. Buying innovation would be to purchase other companies that actually innovate or purchase their products.
MS Labs actually has a lot of interesting things going but it seems the corporate culture is such that almost all of the interesting ideas are ignored when it comes to creating new products.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by kovacm
by kovacm on Sat 7th Apr 2012 23:08 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by kovacm"
kovacm Member since:
2010-12-16

"* You cannot buy innovation *

Microsoft and Nokia spent more money and had more people in R&D and they still cannot make quality competition to iOS?


Spending money on R&D is not "buying innovation", it is innovating. Buying innovation would be to purchase other companies that actually innovate or purchase their products.
MS Labs actually has a lot of interesting things going but it seems the corporate culture is such that almost all of the interesting ideas are ignored when it comes to creating new products.
"
you have the point for sure ! ;)

it is like Atari from80s... ;)
I admit that Microsoft bought lot of technologies and companies in last few years but they failed to present ANY successful product from it (first that come to my mind is Photosynth - when Microsoft bought project, first thing that they do was to port it from OpenGL to DirectX and than they seems to stop future development... :/)



@kokara4a 10+ GREAT example of CRAP (alogical things) in Windows! I can name 100 more...


ON MORE THING: MS have patents for long filenames in FAT. BUT recently, one old thread from newsgroup, come to spotlight in this trial:

Atari programers talk about implementing long filenames in FAT long before Microsoft even think of this. At time, Microsoft still struggle (1992) to produce "good enought" GUI on PCs after SEVEN years of trying (what a LAME company)!

http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/03/ms-patent/

@MOS6510 also brilliant comment! ;)

Edited 2012-04-07 23:11 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Comment by kovacm
by dsmogor on Sun 8th Apr 2012 19:29 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by kovacm"
dsmogor Member since:
2005-09-01

They have bought Kinnect company that had most of the kinks worked out at that time.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by Anonymous Penguin
by Anonymous Penguin on Fri 6th Apr 2012 18:36 UTC
Anonymous Penguin
Member since:
2005-07-06

Never, ever considered buying a Windows phone.
I have a Nokia N8 (dreadful OS, to be honest).
More recently I had to decide between an iPhone and a Samsung Galaxy S2.
I am extremely glad I went for the Galaxy.
Only gripe: battery life.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Comment by Anonymous Penguin
by helf on Fri 6th Apr 2012 21:01 UTC in reply to "Comment by Anonymous Penguin"
helf Member since:
2005-07-06

Give seidioonline.com a shot. I use their extended batteries and have had great luck. Another good option is Mugen Power.

Seidio has a 3200mah extended for the S2 ;)

Reply Score: 2

Anonymous Penguin Member since:
2005-07-06

Thanks, honestly ;)

Reply Score: 2

helf Member since:
2005-07-06

I used their 3200mah one in my old Palm Pre and I could go 2 days of hard use between charges. They didn't have one for my HTC Arrive, so I bought Mugen Powers 3600mah battery and I can now go 2 days of heavy use with it. It's fantastic if you can deal with the bit of added bulk. I've found it makes the phones more comfortable to hold.

Reply Score: 2

Anonymous Penguin Member since:
2005-07-06

Thanks guys, I'll seriously consider your advice.

Reply Score: 2

GNU GPL V3?
by martini on Fri 6th Apr 2012 23:10 UTC
martini
Member since:
2006-01-23

Was finally allowed GNU GPL V3 software on the Windows Phone marketplace?

Reply Score: 1

Comment by Luminair
by Luminair on Sat 7th Apr 2012 01:07 UTC
Luminair
Member since:
2007-03-30

microsoft is fucking catastrophic

these phones won't be upgradeable and will be dead this year

windows 8 is a clusterfuck

ballmer is low on fuel and will be out of the race soon

microsoft is chasing yahoo and rim to the bottom

Reply Score: 2

It's Time to Start Giving Topolosky a Clue
by tomcat on Sat 7th Apr 2012 02:51 UTC
tomcat
Member since:
2006-01-06

His reviews are inconsistent and skewed -- Blackberry makes a better phone than WP7? Really?!? This guy has lost all credibility.

Reply Score: 2

I suppose
by Nelson on Sat 7th Apr 2012 03:05 UTC
Nelson
Member since:
2005-11-29

I do appreciate his criticism, and it's not all misplaced. I don't think any reasoned person would find much to argue with in his criticms (Despite the "stop giving Windows Phone a pass" bullshit, the underlying points he gets to are sound.).

However, I do think he penalizes Windows Phone way too much given the criticism. He was entirely too harsh with his final score, but then again, that's what other reviews are for. Some reviews reviews are gushing, some are withering criticism, but the truth is usually likely in the middle.

Either way, like the Lumia 800, this phone will enjoy modest sales. Not iPhone like, but they'll be a foot in the door, and will likely hold them over until Windows Phone 8. I mean, they are getting more agile.

Look at the first generation Windows Phone. It took an entire YEAR to get new devices out of the door. Now new devices are being released every few months. This is what you need to build momentum. A relentless flooding of the market, like Android did. You only really need a few hero phones to drive awareness.

Does anyone really think the Lumia lineup is a failure so far? They've gone to #1 OEM in Windows Phone in like 12 weeks, and that's with a very gradual roll out. When Nokia finishes their global rollout, and gets the logistics down the sales should be impressive. A few million a quarter.

I think history will vindicate Stephen Elop. He ran Microsoft's Business Division for years, the guy is no slouch.

Reply Score: 2

RE: I suppose
by dsmogor on Sun 8th Apr 2012 19:42 UTC in reply to "I suppose"
dsmogor Member since:
2005-09-01

HTC and Samsung doesn't really look to be caring about the WP market. Their phones are at best mediocre and under promoted as if their engagement was more result of contractual obligations to MS than proven business value (ironically that's quite symmetric to new Nokia's treatment of its own N9). Getting your best design to win with worst of the competition is not much of an achievement.
Is Nokia even producing Lumias already or still just slapping a logo on Compal devices?

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: I suppose
by Nelson on Sun 8th Apr 2012 21:28 UTC in reply to "RE: I suppose"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

The 900 is manufactured by Nokia, the 800 and 710 were not due to time restraints.

However, I think you write off the achievement of #1 OEM too easily. HTC sold a decent chunk of devices during WP7's first year, and the HD7 was the top device up until the Lumia was sold.

To out do a year of sales in a few weeks is impressive, relative to the platform. Of course relative to Android it'll look miniscule, but that's not what we're arguing.

I'm talking about clear and gradual momentum. The 800 and 710 started it, the 900 and 610 will only build on that.

Reply Score: 2

DDevine
Member since:
2011-12-28

Although his review was truthful I think he was way too harsh. He took a low severity issue and magnified it by 10. Having used an LG C900 for a few months, barely even noticed the scrolling issues or the browser issues. The LG C900 has pretty modest hardware and performs as well as most new expensive phones with oodles of hardware power. I have never thought "this is a bit slow..." at all - which is really surprising given that it is *Windows* Phone...

One thing I consistently see is that very little of the negativity seems to come from people who actually use WP7(.5) and nobody can deny its charm.

Another thing to note is that in WP7 you generally do not spend a lot of time in 3rd party applications - and the official applications consistently have a *great* user experience. There is very little I actually miss Android for.

Does it deserve a pass? Definitely. I can find just as much (and more) to hate about Android and iOS.

Reply Score: 1

Also to note
by Nelson on Sat 7th Apr 2012 04:13 UTC
Nelson
Member since:
2005-11-29

Some reports are coming in that the Lumia 900 has a firmware glitch which makes scrolling less smooth than it usually is (compared to Lumia 800 and other Windows Phones). So maybe that might've made the impression that things are worse than they seem.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Also to note
by siimo on Sat 7th Apr 2012 11:14 UTC in reply to "Also to note"
siimo Member since:
2006-06-22

Watch Topolsky's Galaxy Nexus review. It sounds like an advertisement! This guy may have some fair points but I don't think his reviews are unbiased.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeZ8sfJjoRI

Edited 2012-04-07 11:14 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Microsoft, A Phone?
by Geronimo72 on Mon 9th Apr 2012 20:23 UTC
Geronimo72
Member since:
2011-08-17

What, Microsoft has a phone? You mean that thing that looks like a squared off version of a Twister board game?

Reply Score: 1