Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 11th Apr 2012 21:05 UTC
PDAs, Cellphones, Wireless "Shares in Nokia plunged 17% after the mobile phone giant surprised investors by saying it expected to make losses in the first half of 2012. The Finnish company said competition in the industry had led to lower sales particularly in India, the Middle East, Africa and China. Nokia had previously expected to break even in the first quarter." And just when you thought it couldn't get any worse, the Lumia 900 is suffering from a software flaw, and the company has started offering $100 in compensation. Not a good start for such an important flagship device.
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Comment by Fergy
by Fergy on Wed 11th Apr 2012 21:17 UTC
Fergy
Member since:
2006-04-10

So Nokia you burned your linux platform. You stopped developing symbian and stopped using QT. You put all your eggs in a huge company that doesn't need you and hasn't been successful on mobile since the N770.

It is only a matter of time until you get bought by MS and disappear in a puff of C#.

Reply Score: 21

RE: Comment by Fergy
by Gestahlt on Wed 11th Apr 2012 21:27 UTC in reply to "Comment by Fergy"
Gestahlt Member since:
2011-10-17

I absoulutly agree.

Who is the next in the iRing?

Shame that symbian disappears. I didnt even like it but nonetheless, a choice.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Comment by Fergy
by chemical_scum on Wed 11th Apr 2012 22:22 UTC in reply to "Comment by Fergy"
chemical_scum Member since:
2005-11-02

MS is destroying Nokia in exactly the same way that they destroyed Silicon Graphics. Get them to employ a a ex-MS executive as as CEO, then systematically destroy the company from within. No doubt as with SGI, MS will end up holding the patents, as Nokia spirals in its death throes. Pity I liked Nokia.

You would have thought that the Nokia board would have known what is coming, but obviously they were too stupid to learn from history.

Edited 2012-04-11 22:26 UTC

Reply Score: 11

RE: Comment by Fergy
by vaette on Wed 11th Apr 2012 22:26 UTC in reply to "Comment by Fergy"
vaette Member since:
2008-08-09

So Nokia you burned your linux platform. You stopped developing symbian and stopped using QT. You put all your eggs in a huge company that doesn't need you and hasn't been successful on mobile since the N770.

It is only a matter of time until you get bought by MS and disappear in a puff of C#.

Except they are still not at the point in the Symbian roadmap where it goes away, new versions and new phones on the Symbian line are still coming quickly. As it happens the whole reason why profits collapsed is that Symbian is getting killed in the market by low-end Android, both when it comes to raw units shipped and in profit-margins. You can argue that Meego would have swooped in and saved the company but this seems pretty dubious, the N9 numbers are good, but not that good.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by Fergy
by cyrilleberger on Thu 12th Apr 2012 06:13 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by Fergy"
cyrilleberger Member since:
2006-02-01

the N9 numbers are good, but not that good.


And now you should compare the ratio "sales/marketing investment" of the N9 with Lumias...

Reply Score: 8

RE[2]: Comment by Fergy
by spiderman on Thu 12th Apr 2012 06:53 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by Fergy"
spiderman Member since:
2008-10-23

They killed it by self defeating prophecy. The CEO publicly said Symbian sucks and was on the way out. They make new models, they improve it but they ask people not to buy it.
I have Symbian Belle and it is competitive. It compares well with Android graphically speaking and has more feature than any other major OS.
Nokia is worse than Commodore was. Commodore was clueless. Nokia makes great tech but its management want their company to fail. They try very hard to kill the company as fast as they can. They have a clue and they know exactly what to do to kill Nokia. This is worse than incompetent management that Commodore had.

Reply Score: 6

Some context
by Nelson on Wed 11th Apr 2012 22:25 UTC
Nelson
Member since:
2005-11-29

Lumia sales have been steadily increasing month over month, and these numbers exclude China and now United States sales.

Sales are accelerating, partners are pleased, and they are gaining market share.

It also is shown that Lumia sales are more profitable than Symbian sales, so they enjoy thoroughly large margins based off of the lower system requirements of WP7.

Early indicators also show encouraging signs of Lumia 900 sales in the US. I've heard several reports of models selling out in stores, and its topping Amazon charts.

I think the increasing momentum of the 800 and the 710(which T-Mobile has said they are very pleased with) along side the sales off the 900 and the 610 will see Nokia move millions of handsets.

Also to note that Lumias still currently have limited market availability and have only recently been more broadly available.

The 900 bug according to reports is very limited in its impact with only some devices being affected which were incorrectly provisioned. They're essentially making the device free for a bug which will be fixed in less than a week. Nice PR there.

Of course, don't let facts get in the way of the bullshit.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Some context
by kragil on Wed 11th Apr 2012 22:34 UTC in reply to "Some context"
kragil Member since:
2006-01-04

?? Logic ??

Nokia looses money left and right, but their phones are selling really well? Interesting theory.

Even the N9 is selling better than that WP crap, which nobody wants. And the N9 is not exactly a megaseller.

Reply Score: 11

RE[2]: Some context
by Nelson on Wed 11th Apr 2012 22:47 UTC in reply to "RE: Some context"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

?? Logic ??

Nokia looses money left and right, but their phones are selling really well? Interesting theory.

Even the N9 is selling better than that WP crap, which nobody wants. And the N9 is not exactly a megaseller.


If they make money, they could be losing more than they make, at the time. You do know how to read a financial report, right?

N9 is not outselling Windows Phone. I challenge you to find a hard source verifying that.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Some context
by shmerl on Thu 12th Apr 2012 03:10 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Some context"
shmerl Member since:
2010-06-08

Not WP in general. N9 outsells Nokia's WP. Go look around for numbers.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Some context
by Nelson on Thu 12th Apr 2012 03:16 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Some context"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

No it does not. Provide a credible source saying otherwise

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Some context
by Radio on Thu 12th Apr 2012 08:29 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Some context"
Radio Member since:
2009-06-20

There isn't any. Elop is keeping quiet on the topic, as estimates* put it in the 1-2 million mark. And remember that it is without any advertisment push, in very few, small markets, thus shaming WP sales.

*http://communities-dominate.blogs.com/brands/2012/01/how-many-lumia...

You think Elop isn't actively suppressing N9 sales number? Well, firstly, if it was so bad, he would show it, to prove the switch to WP was the good move, and secondly, remember how Elop "leaked" in plain sight the WP prototype a few minutes after the lauch of the N9 (one of the most shameless PR stunts I have seen).

Of course, don't let facts get in the way of the bullshit.

Oooh, look, facts:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-30686_3-57412215-266/is-at-ts-sales-force...

Just bad preparation, right? AT&T wouldn't get the advertisment money while actively screwing Microsoft for buying Skype and a few more gripes. Vendors want a new Apple-like control freak company in the game. Right? Right?

Reply Score: 7

RE[6]: Some context
by Nelson on Thu 12th Apr 2012 10:22 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Some context"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

There isn't any.


If there isn't any, then shut the fuck up. Seriously, you just admitted you and others are full of shit.

Only in this deranged anti Nokia fantasy land you live in, can you just plain make shit up to suit your agenda.

You and the others who claim this, or anything close should be ashamed.

Reply Score: 0

RE[7]: Some context
by Radio on Thu 12th Apr 2012 10:44 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Some context"
Radio Member since:
2009-06-20

My, my, my, throwing a tantrum, now? Because, you know, it is Elop who is "shutting the f*k up" about N9 sales. And for good reasons:
http://www.meltemiblog.com/2012/01/n9-vs-lumia-sales-numbers-in-q4....

Look how AT&T is loving you back:
http://www.theverge.com/2012/4/10/2938391/att-lumia-900-ad-budget-l...

Topolsky is right, MSFT fanboys are really the most crazy and the most mean.

Reply Score: 8

RE: Some context
by Beta on Wed 11th Apr 2012 23:14 UTC in reply to "Some context"
Beta Member since:
2005-07-06

Sales are accelerating, partners are pleased, and they are gaining market share.


Even if their sales are accelerating (please, do provide numbers and links), the install base for smart phones is increasing at the same time. From the last numbers I looked at, they aren’t even treading water but rather losing share.

http://www.catb.org/esr/comscore/ *US sale numbers

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Some context
by Nelson on Wed 11th Apr 2012 23:18 UTC in reply to "RE: Some context"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Its in their revised guidance. Sales are increasing month over month.

You are right though, Symbian sales are collapsing faster than Lumia sales are growing. That however is a much different picture than "omg wp7 sucks hard".

It has always been known this would be a gradual recovery, and initial signs are encouraging. I hope youd agree.

Do you think they'd be better off without Windows Phone? Keep in mind MSFTs financial support and subsidization of marketing.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Some context
by Beta on Thu 12th Apr 2012 00:00 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Some context"
Beta Member since:
2005-07-06

Do you think they'd be better off without Windows Phone? Keep in mind MSFTs financial support and subsidization of marketing.

Are you asking about Windows Phone, or Microsoft’s financial support?

I think WP was the wrong choice for them, Meego at the very least was a competent smart phone platform they already had. If you want to argue over ecosystem, neither WP or Meego had them so they both were starting from the same point. But even with Meego, Nokia were behind the times for a modern smart phone.

Dare I say that Nokia could have easily brought Android to their feature phone and smart phone ranges and be on their way this summer to be 2nd or 1st in Android phone makers.

Reply Score: 7

RE[4]: Some context
by Nelson on Thu 12th Apr 2012 00:08 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Some context"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

"Do you think they'd be better off without Windows Phone? Keep in mind MSFTs financial support and subsidization of marketing.

Are you asking about Windows Phone, or Microsoft’s financial support?

I think WP was the wrong choice for them, Meego at the very least was a competent smart phone platform they already had. If you want to argue over ecosystem, neither WP or Meego had them so they both were starting from the same point. But even with Meego, Nokia were behind the times for a modern smart phone.

Dare I say that Nokia could have easily brought Android to their feature phone and smart phone ranges and be on their way this summer to be 2nd or 1st in Android phone makers.
"

Fair enough. I don't know how practical Android was. I mean I can't fathom Google providing the raw cash infusions or advertising support MSFT does.

I also dont know if the margins on Android sales wold be as high as they are for Windows Phone. Being the WP7 "Savior" also affords them this elevated status which keeps them in the news. I think they and MSFT had a pretty mutually beneficial relationship.

I worry about had Nokia gone with Android their ability to be as nimble, Nokia reportedly worked very, very close with MSFT which likely led to faster to market times.

However, Android also brings many advantages like broader hardware and more mind share so you may have a point. I just find the android OEM market really cutthroat for the wounded Nokia, I mean even HTC is having trouble.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Some context
by ThomasFuhringer on Thu 12th Apr 2012 07:58 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Some context"
ThomasFuhringer Member since:
2007-01-25

Android would not need the cash infusion that WP got from MSFT.
Only WP needs it because it is long dead in the water and being resucitated by billions of marketing dollars.

Only a fraction of that money might have given MeeGo the final polish it needed.

Reply Score: 5

RE[6]: Some context
by Nelson on Thu 12th Apr 2012 10:28 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Some context"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Android would not need the cash infusion that WP got from MSFT.
Only WP needs it because it is long dead in the water and being resucitated by billions of marketing dollars.

Only a fraction of that money might have given MeeGo the final polish it needed.


I was having a serious discussion with a serious person. Reconsider the value add of your post and try again.

People who still think MeeGo(which wasn't even MeeGo, it was Maemo with a new skin) had the ecosystem it needed to survive are inebriated. I know its what you wish happened, but it didn't. Get over it. Your year long grudge is beyond tiring.

Nokia was in dire financial straits, yet you argue them spending undeniably more money engineering their own concoction would've left them in a better position. Unbelievable.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Some context
by ThomasFuhringer on Thu 12th Apr 2012 11:11 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Some context"
ThomasFuhringer Member since:
2007-01-25

I do not know what makes your discussion more "serious" when you call others "inebridated".

As was mentioned above, WP had as little of an ecosystem as MeeGo (or whatever you prefer to call it).

According to E. Murtazin, Nokia spent EUR 1bn developing MeeGo and then Elop shelved it.
I bit more investment and it might have actually become useful. Reviewers liked it and customers bought it, while on the other hand WP has evidently failed to gain traction since day one.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Some context
by bitwelder on Thu 12th Apr 2012 07:57 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Some context"
bitwelder Member since:
2010-04-27


You are right though, Symbian sales are collapsing faster than Lumia sales are growing. That however is a much different picture than "omg wp7 sucks hard".

Well, the story of Lumia is getting towards "omg wp7 sucks hard, but if they are almost paying me to get one, I could close an eye on it... for the time being.".
Way to go to build a faithful customer base! :-D

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: Some context
by Nelson on Thu 12th Apr 2012 10:30 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Some context"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

That's the point, get people to try it, change perception. Windows Phones generally review very well with customers based off of satisfaction , consistently higher than Android.

Reply Score: 2

There was not much choice to begin with
by sukru on Thu 12th Apr 2012 02:01 UTC
sukru
Member since:
2006-11-19

They were very late to realize that the Symbian was dying, and when they did, there was not much chance of getting Symbian back to modern standards. Look at how much BB is struggling now, and look at what happened to hp with (arguably) the easiest to use mobile OS - they had to firesale touchpads.

It's not easy to build an ecosystem, so that you can have very profitable margins. Apple probably makes 100% profit on each iPhone, but except for Motorola and Samsung, Android manufacturers lack that luxury.

Then the only avenue to catch their breath was WP7. The market is small, but they might make just enough profit to get the company back on track. And with that money, and some restructuring, they can improve their side project - Nokia Belle - new Symbian, and become good once again.

Reply Score: 2

ricegf Member since:
2007-04-25

"...look at what happened to hp with (arguably) the easiest to use mobile OS - they had to firesale touchpads."

Nobody knows if webOS could have pulled off a comeback, as the tablet was on the market for only a few days, and the phone wasn't even on sale yet, when the Worst CEO in History pulled the plug.

But not because webOS was having problems (it was too soon to tell). Rather, because he was from a software services company, and couldn't hack leading a hardware company. So he just announced out of the blue that HP was now a software services company, and was promptly fired.

Frankly, it was reminiscent of Elop's "Symbian sucks, we're switching to WinP7... NEXT year" moment of lunacy, with their stock plunging right on cue.

These guys need to learn how to manage a transition without shell-shocking the market and their loyal customers.

Reply Score: 6

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

I agree with your last sentence, but if TouchPads were going to be a disaster HP would've known from the beginning from low channel sales. They're not dumb when it comes to moving a product off the shelves.

Reply Score: 3

sukru Member since:
2006-11-19

Yes there is the CEO issue, however as a platform WebOS was doomed from the start. They could not get content on their devices.

To contrast, look at the success story of Amazon's Kindle Fire. Amazon has the content (own App, Music, Video, Book stores), and has good enough relations to bring other content providers (like Netflix, and Hulu) on their platform (custom Android). Now they are selling the devices at a high rate.

WebOS could not even get Netflix to come abroad - which is practically on every multimedia device out there. They did not have apps (not even the old WebOS apps). They did not have books (initially Kindle app was not completely ready), and they did not have music either.

Even though, when I had the device, it had the most intuitive user interface, and great performance, it failed flat. The CEO might have made the process faster, but the BB story says, it would have happened eventually.

Edited 2012-04-12 18:51 UTC

Reply Score: 2

TLTL
by siki_miki on Thu 12th Apr 2012 08:41 UTC
siki_miki
Member since:
2006-01-17

So instead of a simple over-the-air fix they are giving devices for free. It seems they desperately want to sell them, they probably have a huge stock of unsold phones. A pity that it's not popular because build quality and sexyness of the phone is great, beats almost everything else right now. I think we might see Nokia join the Android bandwagon if sales don't take in this year (I bet they already have a team working on it).
I think their next chance is WP8, if Microsoft outdoes themselves with it.

Reply Score: 2

RE: TLTL
by ricegf on Thu 12th Apr 2012 09:58 UTC in reply to "TLTL"
ricegf Member since:
2007-04-25

Refunding the full purchase price of the Lumia is either a desperation move due to huge unsold inventory, or a great PR move by a company that recognizes this year is their only shot to make their new strategy a success. I tend toward the latter, but time will tell.

Microsoft's $1B check pretty much guarantees that Nokia will never build an Android phone. Rather next year (you read it here first) they'll introduce an ill-fated Win 8 tablet to complement their phones, fire off a volley of patent lawsuits against Android makers, then be acquired by Microsoft who will abandon their other Windows Phone licenses (see "Plays For Sure") and try to go solo against Apple mano-a-mano, with the same success as Zune had against iPod. Nokia will then become just a bit of reminiscence on Wikipedia.

Sad for a once great company. *sigh*

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: TLTL
by Nelson on Thu 12th Apr 2012 10:33 UTC in reply to "RE: TLTL"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

While you're predicting the future , mind grabbing me the lotto numbers ?

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: TLTL
by moondevil on Thu 12th Apr 2012 20:06 UTC in reply to "RE: TLTL"
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

Sad for a once great company. *sigh*


As a former employee it saddens me to see this happen to a company that used to have a great working environment.

Reply Score: 2