Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 1st May 2012 15:12 UTC
PDAs, Cellphones, Wireless It's about time. RIM is in deep trouble, and is seeing its smartphone market share being eaten left and right by Android and iOS. After being more or less the equivalent of a deer caught in the headlights, the company has now finally unveiled its answer to the original iPhone - 5 years too late.
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Comment by zoken4
by zoken4 on Tue 1st May 2012 15:31 UTC
zoken4
Member since:
2009-02-02

I wonder why you're constantly despising RIM while you're proclaiming your love for Windows Phone, a nearly completely retarded platform.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Comment by zoken4
by arpan on Wed 2nd May 2012 08:17 UTC in reply to "Comment by zoken4"
arpan Member since:
2006-07-30

It's right there in the article.

All in all, while I'm all for a new platform - the more the merrier - I'm wondering what, exactly, BlackBerry 10 has to offer over the competition. iOS has the Apple factor, Android has the openness, freedom to tinker, and customisability, and Windows Phone 7.5 has the uniqueness and quirkiness of Metro. What does BB10 have?

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by zoken4
by cdude on Wed 2nd May 2012 14:25 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by zoken4"
cdude Member since:
2008-09-21

> Windows Phone 7.5 has the uniqueness and quirkiness of Metro

It's just that this is a problem and not a solution as proven daily by the sells numbers. LG says lesser then 2% do like that "uniqueness and quirkiness". Stating that the disadvantage is an advantage is like stating the bug that deletes your data is a feature that cleans up your data for you.

Edited 2012-05-02 14:26 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Comment by zoken4
by arpan on Wed 2nd May 2012 15:01 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by zoken4"
arpan Member since:
2006-07-30

while you're proclaiming your love for Windows Phone


I was answering that question. The reason Thom loves Windows Phone is because is brings something new to the table. Almost everything in BB10 has already been done.

Reply Score: 2

Too late?
by Sparrowhawk on Tue 1st May 2012 15:49 UTC
Sparrowhawk
Member since:
2005-07-11

I'm not sure it is, truth be told. Let's wait and see. As far as I am concerned, I am now more likely to move to my first ever Blackberry phone than to continue with iOS. That's just me of course, and each to their own.

Interestingly, as a PlayBook owner (and iPad for anyone thinking there is undue bias!), the last few weeks have seen a lot of quality titles appearing, and many more have been announced in Orlando. It *seems* like major dev studios are taking notice of the platform, so that bodes well for the BB10 app catalogue at launch. It won't be anything like the iOS or Android app catalogues, but as long as there are enough quality apps, I really don't care about quantity.

That camera enhancement is brilliant incidentally, loved it. And for me, what the PlayBook OS has that I hope will carry over to the BB10 phones is fluidity when moving between apps, closing apps, etc. I love that.

As I said though, each to their own, but it's good to see that RIM and MS are having to work hard and come up with fresh products to keep the mobile race interesting.


Edit: fixed typo

Edited 2012-05-01 15:54 UTC

Reply Score: 6

OK, I take the challenge
by fretinator on Tue 1st May 2012 15:50 UTC
fretinator
Member since:
2005-07-06

Here is what RIM can do with Blackberry 10:

1. The main selling point of RIM has always been enterprise. They need to aggressively market this feature. Blackberry is for the big girls and boys, forget the toys (see, I provided you a slogan). Abandon the bottom-feeder market to Android. Make high-class devices. Apple is not entrenched in the business world yet, but you better hurry.

2. Stability - the key weekness of Android is stability. My high-end phone spontaneously resets a couple times a day. So did my low-end phone. I also often exoerience the devices locking up, causing me to pull the battery. In addition, the Google App Market is laden with spyware. Make ROCK SOLID devices with soldly vetted apps.

3. Multi-tasking. WebOS did this well, Apple and Google do not. Apple has more of a frozen state. Google just fills up ram until you either manually unclog it (I keep a shortcut on one of my screens for doing this), or slow down to a crawl (they should steal the beach ball). Multi-task smoothly without filling up memory.

OK, the challenge is there, and it can be done. You do not have another chance - this is it.

Reply Score: 13

RE: OK, I take the challenge
by 1c3d0g on Tue 1st May 2012 17:13 UTC in reply to "OK, I take the challenge"
1c3d0g Member since:
2005-07-06

Very well said. I also agree that RIM has the business market locked up (just look beyond U.S. borders for a minute). There are many countries that have signed LONG-term contracts with RIM for delivery of BlackBerries (& associated services) for serious business use. This ain't going to change overnight.

I'm really hopeful that RIM can capitalize on this, as it would be a REAL shame to let QNX die like this. There aren't many O.S. that are as capable as this real-time O.S.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: OK, I take the challenge
by judgen on Tue 1st May 2012 17:43 UTC in reply to "RE: OK, I take the challenge"
judgen Member since:
2006-07-12

I am rather certain that QNX will not die with the mobile phones. It is still widely used (perhaps even gaining) in no-fault-allowed equpment like human life support aparatuses, space related mahines and other vital eqipment. Given that they is not using stock qnx, but rather modified and with most if not all non-needed features turned off.

The customization possibillities of the qnx kernel is remarkable.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: OK, I take the challenge
by jebb on Wed 2nd May 2012 04:46 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: OK, I take the challenge"
jebb Member since:
2006-07-06

As well as in the on-board entertainment systems of numerous expensive german cars, which is probably a fairly lucrative market.

Reply Score: 2

RE: OK, I take the challenge
by Carewolf on Tue 1st May 2012 18:08 UTC in reply to "OK, I take the challenge"
Carewolf Member since:
2005-09-08

Point 4: QML, it makes it much easier to develop web-applications. Just look at how many applications were made for or ported the N9 despite being a very small ecosystem.

Reply Score: 4

RE: OK, I take the challenge
by MollyC on Tue 1st May 2012 20:05 UTC in reply to "OK, I take the challenge"
MollyC Member since:
2006-07-04

Historically, the problem with going with full multi-tasking on a mobile device is downgraded performance in the foreground app and lower batterly life. But lately, it seems that people don't care as much about batterly life (battery life seems to be an afterthought in tech reviews anymore), and with multicore, the foreground app perf problem isn't as prevalant.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: OK, I take the challenge
by dsmogor on Wed 2nd May 2012 09:15 UTC in reply to "RE: OK, I take the challenge"
dsmogor Member since:
2005-09-01

QNX being an RT OS has potential to do multitasking right on a phone. Just set the GUI to always run on an RT priority (and RT priority is only non-fake on RT oses). They have the cake (non-fake multitasking aka WP) and can eat it (60fps gui). That's a killer feature if you ask me. Besides they could run GSM signalling stack on a core OS, unlocking the potential for big cost reductions (if only they could design SOC around that) reaching feature phone levels. But to unleash that potential they should have licensing deals with MediaTec and Shenzai producers to undercut Android ready NOW.
I guess the only key technology that was missing from QNX is aggressive power management, so I'm wondering what battery life of their initial devices will look like.

Reply Score: 2

RE: OK, I take the challenge
by tonny on Wed 2nd May 2012 10:56 UTC in reply to "OK, I take the challenge"
tonny Member since:
2011-12-22

And...
Lower the price and up the spec. For the god sake, this is 2012! And they sell a SMARTPHONE that don't have 3G & GPS. For $212!! For real!?!

Reply Score: 1

Crackberry
by tessmonsta on Tue 1st May 2012 15:53 UTC
tessmonsta
Member since:
2009-07-16

I'm curious if users that were dissatisfied with Blackberry the last few years and turned to Android or iOS would come back. There's certainly a lot of users out there that have fond memories of the brand.

Reply Score: 7

RE: Crackberry
by Sparrowhawk on Tue 1st May 2012 16:07 UTC in reply to "Crackberry"
Sparrowhawk Member since:
2005-07-11

I tried to +1 your comment as insightful, but as I'd already posted it was not allowed (I still don't agree with this system, but hey). So have a virtual +1 instead ;)

I was reading reaction to the new OS on the various Blackberry sites/blogs and it does seem rather positive. One thing that is noticeable is that Blackberry fans are every bit as vociferous as their iOS/Android/MS/whatever equivalents. So I suspect that you might be right and many of those who left due to the slow pace of progress on the current-gen phones might be tempted back. How many is the biggy though, and how many like me are likely to move to Blackberry for the first time too.

Ultimately, I think it's how well RIM can grab back the corporate mindset that will decide this. If BB10 can deliver the rock solid corporate functionality coupled with the whizzbang features most people wants they could pull this one off and surprise a few people along the way.

Reply Score: 3

nice
by helf on Tue 1st May 2012 16:13 UTC
helf
Member since:
2005-07-06

This is actually looking pretty slick. I hope RIM can pull it together. Be sad to see QNX get wasted.

Reply Score: 3

too little, too late?
by churlish_Helmut on Tue 1st May 2012 16:22 UTC
churlish_Helmut
Member since:
2010-04-12

Yes. You can say, its too late to say, Rim can win Ground on the Smartphone Battlefield.

Theoretically.

Because the smarthphone market is more volatile as you may think. LG is moving away from Windows Phone 7, and stays at Android, but the update System of Android is a mess. Thats why Samsung still keeps Bada alive. I don't want to say that android ist somewhat moribund - of course not, it will be rising and rising over the time. But not in all Areas.

Think of big Business. Do they need to get a phone, which is open, an which can be flashed easily? Of course not.
Think of the Army. They going to use Smartphones as well, and this smartphone needs to be secure, but needs to be some advantages over Smartphones with a fully closed environment.

That are two examples. You can count some more.

Many people around me still have a good image of Blackberry. iPhone and Android are advanced, but if there will be an new and truly modern Blackberry Phone, they will take it.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by AnythingButVista
by AnythingButVista on Tue 1st May 2012 16:54 UTC
AnythingButVista
Member since:
2008-08-27

BlackBerry has two strengths that make me believe many ex-BlackBerry users will come back if RIM can make BB10 work right.

1. Battery life: BlackBerrys from all lines (Curve, Bold, Torch) can run in circles around the battery life of Apple iPhones (iOS 5 anyone) and the vast majority of Android smartphones.

2. Keyboard: BlackBerry hardware keyboards are second to none and judging by today's presentation, it seems RIM is willing to improve usability of touchscreen keyboards.

Add RIM's robust secure and enterprise quality data infrastructure and I can see many users giving BB10 a shot.

As for myself, I don't see myself trying another BlackBerry anytime soon, but that's because I left BlackBerry for reasons opposite to those most ex-BlackBerry users left.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Comment by AnythingButVista
by Milo_Hoffman on Tue 1st May 2012 19:04 UTC in reply to "Comment by AnythingButVista"
Milo_Hoffman Member since:
2005-07-06

>Battery life

BAH.. my 9860 Torch (and everyone else at the office who has one), can't go even a DAY with being charged.... you have to charge it every single night. Its like being back in the days of nicad batteries.

Reply Score: 3

sithlord2 Member since:
2009-04-02

Then I would recommend to replace your battery.

I haven't seen a blackberry that couldn't last three days on battery with the data connection open.

Reply Score: 2

Milo_Hoffman Member since:
2005-07-06

We all just got them.... we suspect is a problem with the crappy Blackberry OS.

Reply Score: 3

jessesmith Member since:
2010-03-11

I've seen Blackberry batteries drain in less than a day when not being used. However in those cases it was usually because the BB was in a location where it wasn't getting good reception. Apparently if the BB can't get a decent signal it will (for lack of a better term) panic and start draining its battery at an alarming rate. I've seen fully charged Blackberries which could last for four or five days without a recharge drain their batteries inside five hours when placed in a room where they were cut off from the outside world.

Reply Score: 4

tylerdurden Member since:
2009-03-17

I have seen that same behavior as well...

Perhaps the reconnection attempt rate on blackberrys may be a tad too aggressive?

Reply Score: 3

Comment by bbell
by bbell on Tue 1st May 2012 18:46 UTC
bbell
Member since:
2006-05-04

RIM might want to discontinue the current advertisements I have been seeing on TV lately, with a girl extolling the virtues of a "real" keyboard over a touch screen to handle her "1000s of important Emails per day"

Reply Score: 2

What does BB10 have?
by SaidinUnleashed on Tue 1st May 2012 19:00 UTC
SaidinUnleashed
Member since:
2006-08-21

One thing that RIM does better than anyone else is hardware. If they make this OS fly and fly well, and keep the high build quality, customers will come back. I don't even carry my BB in a case or bumper, except in my bike bag, but even with bumpers and shells and whatnot, not a week goes by without one of my colleagues cracking or denting or otherwise damaging their iDroid phones.

Reply Score: 1

RE: What does BB10 have?
by Milo_Hoffman on Tue 1st May 2012 19:32 UTC in reply to "What does BB10 have?"
Milo_Hoffman Member since:
2005-07-06

> they make this OS fly

The OS on my Bold (7.x) is the slowest smart phone OS I have ever used...it constantly goes out to lunch and does not respond as well.

I was a Crackberry lover for many years, and then I moved to an iPhone. But I recently was given a brand new BB Torch at work and frankly anyone who has ever used an iPhone and gone back will tell you....its junk.

Light and day....the only people who don't know any better are those who have not used anything else.

BB was fine in the day and I loved my curve back then...but its OS is ancient junk compared to what is out in the market now.

Edited 2012-05-01 19:32 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: What does BB10 have?
by mistersoft on Wed 2nd May 2012 15:30 UTC in reply to "RE: What does BB10 have?"
mistersoft Member since:
2011-01-05

....so maybe just maybe, the NEW one's a lot better?

Just saying.

Reply Score: 2

RE: What does BB10 have?
by apoclypse on Tue 1st May 2012 23:50 UTC in reply to "What does BB10 have?"
apoclypse Member since:
2007-02-17

I hope this is sarcasm. Hardware is most definitely NOT RIM's strength. Any BB owner with a trackball would tell you how crappy those were, I won't even mention the storm. As someone who has to support these things daily rock solid hardware and RIM don't belong in the same sentence, imo.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: What does BB10 have?
by tonny on Wed 2nd May 2012 10:59 UTC in reply to "RE: What does BB10 have?"
tonny Member since:
2011-12-22

+1.
Like somebody said before, the good part of the hardware is just the keyboard. The rest is crap!

Edited 2012-05-02 11:00 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Insight is a beautiful thing
by bowkota on Tue 1st May 2012 19:47 UTC
bowkota
Member since:
2011-10-12

RIM demos BB10, World yawns.
This is what you get if you have zero insight.

iPhone comes out, MS and BB laugh it off. Google develops Android in a similar fashion to iOS and get its out ASAP. Google wins.

MS really needs to turn Windows 8 into a success in the mobile universe otherwise it will follow RIM in a few years.

Reply Score: 1

I hate the "too late" argument.
by MollyC on Tue 1st May 2012 20:09 UTC
MollyC
Member since:
2006-07-04

The "too late" argument means that we're stuck with Apple/Android for the rest of our lives. I can't believe that tech fans, even Apple/Google fans, would want that. Yet the "too late" argument is often stated with glee.

RIM still has lots of contracts in business and government. BB10 might very well be good enough to retain those markets, and they can build from there.

(Personally, I'm not overly impressed with BB10, but I see lots of the tech media calling it "impressive". And yes, they said the same wrt WebOS, but WebOS didn't already have government and corporate contracts to save and build on.)

Reply Score: 5

RE: I hate the "too late" argument.
by arpan on Wed 2nd May 2012 09:10 UTC in reply to "I hate the "too late" argument."
arpan Member since:
2006-07-30

Of course iOS and Android will be replaced. We're just assuming that that's atleast several years away.

The question is will RIM even be a viable competitor at that time. And even if they are, do they have it in them to make something that's innovative enough to replace iOS & Android. Right now from what we've seen so far, BB10 isn't good enough to compete with it's larger & more successful rivals.

Reply Score: 2

MollyC Member since:
2006-07-04

Of course iOS and Android will be replaced. We're just assuming that that's atleast several years away.


According to the "too late" argument, "several years away" should be even more "too late" than it is today. The "too late" argument means nothing can every displace what ever is currently leading, because once it's "too late", it will always be "too late", even more so as time goes on.

Reply Score: 2

Axord Member since:
2005-06-30

"Too late" here can mean "too late to save RIM".

Reply Score: 2

abdavidson Member since:
2005-07-06

Never too late, even to save RIM.

If what they come up with captures (or creates, a la iOS) the zeitgeist then it can come storming back.

I also think that there is a large well of former BB users who will jump ship back to something from "their" brand which meets their new (android/iOS fed) needs.

Reply Score: 2

arpan Member since:
2006-07-30

You're missing the first part of that argument. It's "too little, too late".

This means that either

* instead of doing it now, they should have done this earlier
* or at this point in time, they should have done more.

Edited 2012-05-03 20:25 UTC

Reply Score: 2

dsmogor Member since:
2005-09-01

The app ecosystems are pretty much locked. The next disruption has to make current apps irrelevant just as IOS and Android has shown how Windows apps are irrelevant on mobile device.
This could be a decent HTML5 developer environment but even Google has a hard time delivering it. That could be a disruption in a way we use mobile devices. Or it could be a prove that apps are not that important anyway. I would love to see a study that shows how much users in various places on the world are dependent on specific apps that are outside of handful of most popular services. I have a gut feeling that (except for IOS), not that much.

Reply Score: 3

unoengborg Member since:
2005-07-06

What tech fans want and reality is two very different things. Lot of tech people want Linux on the desktop, still we are more or less stuck with Microsoft just like we on the smartphone market gets more and more stuck to iOS and Android. Both iOS and Android users have their phones full of expensive apps, and banks and other services they use on a daily basis works well. Why should they change systems.

To undo this situation, we need something completely different, not more of the same. Actually Microsoft have a much better chance to do this with their WP7 than RIM, and even their success have been quite limited so far.

Reply Score: 3

dsmogor Member since:
2005-09-01

Not being Microsoft is a feat of itself ;)

Reply Score: 2

What's new on BB 10?
by tonny on Wed 2nd May 2012 10:44 UTC
tonny
Member since:
2011-12-22

All in all, while I'm all for a new platform - the more the merrier - I'm wondering what, exactly, BlackBerry 10 has to offer over the competition. iOS has the Apple factor, Android has the openness, freedom to tinker, and customisability, and Windows Phone 7.5 has the uniqueness and quirkiness of Metro. What does BB10 have?

Same old BBM?

Reply Score: 1

RE: What's new on BB 10?
by barcodex on Wed 2nd May 2012 13:20 UTC in reply to "What's new on BB 10?"
barcodex Member since:
2010-06-28

Apple introduced iMessage to undermine BBM's inportance. But what's actually kicking RIM's ass regarding BBM is WhatsApp. This little thing is crossplatform, so teenagers just switch from they BlackBerries whenever they get enough money to buy a decent smartphone instead.

Sure, it depends on the country. But BBM even does not work in all of them. You might see a businessman with BlackBerry in US, but try to find one in Estonia, for example ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: What's new on BB 10?
by tonny on Wed 2nd May 2012 14:18 UTC in reply to "RE: What's new on BB 10?"
tonny Member since:
2011-12-22

Well, at least it's their last forte. Many consider Blackberry just for their BBM.

Reply Score: 1

lazar
Member since:
2008-12-10

I was quite sad when mobile phones lost their visible antenna (anyone remember those sexy Ericsson phones with short antennas?).
At that time a design professor said: "mobile phones are now loosing their definig functional attribute. It is as if car designers would try to hide the wheels of a car behind some sort of enclosure or casing" (1960's?).

Even though I never owened one - equally a BB is not a BB any more if the keyboard is gone.

Reply Score: 1

tylerdurden Member since:
2009-03-17

Yeah, telephones sure have gone downhill ever since they lost their original functional qualities: being stuck to a wall, a chord, and a rotary dial.

Or perhaps that professor, like most of the "designer" contingent does not know what he's talking about...

Edited 2012-05-03 00:53 UTC

Reply Score: 3

unclefester Member since:
2007-01-13

Or perhaps that professor, like most of the "designer" contingent does not know what he's talking about...


The professor knows exactly what he is talking about. External antennae give vastly superior reception. That is why "rugged" phones for isolated areas still have an external antenna.

Reply Score: 2

OH HAI, remember webOS?
by mlankton on Wed 2nd May 2012 13:45 UTC
mlankton
Member since:
2009-06-11

It doesn't matter how cool the os is if you can't do anything on it. I carried a Pre for 2 years, and I still feel it was a superior platform even if the phone sucked. It was a desert though. My Android phone and tablet are so much more functional than my webOS devices that I don't even think about the warts and pimples of Android. Sorry RIM, too little too late. There is no longer room in the marketplace for a third mobile platform, despite what the Microclones may tell you.

Reply Score: 1

Same old, same old
by ShawnX on Thu 3rd May 2012 01:44 UTC
ShawnX
Member since:
2006-08-04

First a disclaimer, I work for RIM but comments are my own.

I take issue with "too little, too late". I'm frankly sick of the constant negativity. Seriously, do you think we'd show everything? I work on BB10 but am not at a liberty to discuss nor wish to.

I leave it up to consumers to decide how BB10 will do and that is how it should be.

Now, let the hate resume.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Same old, same old
by Dr.Mabuse on Thu 3rd May 2012 05:23 UTC in reply to "Same old, same old"
Dr.Mabuse Member since:
2009-05-19

I take issue with "too little, too late". I'm frankly sick of the constant negativity. Seriously, do you think we'd show everything? I work on BB10 but am not at a liberty to discuss nor wish to.


For what it's worth, my company is a still a big BlackBerry user, and while we have assessed the others (iPhone, Android and WP7) is still clear, that for business use, the BlackBerry is still the best option for us.

When I say the "best" option - I mean, not only the user experience, but the management side of things as well. This is something the average everyday user simply doesn't see.

While I actually preferred your older Windows-based management interface (compared to the web/tomcat one used now) it still provides us a level of control over our phones the others cannot match.

So, I look forward to seeing your new line of products. Hopefully it has enough bells and whistles to keep the kids happy. :-)

Reply Score: 2

RE: Same old, same old
by dsmogor on Thu 3rd May 2012 09:48 UTC in reply to "Same old, same old"
dsmogor Member since:
2005-09-01

My company (a huge international) have just replaced Nokias with BBs despite one of its branches whining for IPhones.
There's a still breathing space for BB. So, guys, your turn to show the world what you've got!

Reply Score: 2

RIM is cooked
by morglum666 on Thu 3rd May 2012 13:29 UTC
morglum666
Member since:
2005-07-06

Disclaimer: I do not work for RIM. I used to work for a waterloo based company that did some dealings with RIM and many of our staff worked for RIM before or after.

Rim is basically cooked. They remind me of the UK's response to the olympics by putting in anti-aircaft missles on rooftops. Like the military, they are only good at responding to last year's war.

The blackberry build quality has suffered. Reliable? Yes. Battery life - not that good. Apps? none to speak of. If you want value from a phone or device you have to have an application that does something for you.. and blackberries don't do that.

If you look at the sales that Apple has on the consumer side it would only take a mild amount of effort to add the enterprise components needed to utterly crush rim.

Apple is on one end of the functionality / fun side which does clash with the security focus of the blackberry devices. It'll be interesting to see if they can blend both.

Their marketing is also terrible. Literally, other than this new switch to touch, can you tell one blackberry from another? Worth $500?

Finally - the movers and shakers have moved or are moving from blackberry to Apple and android devices. As soon as that happens you have maybe a year, or two and it'll trickle down the organization. RIM is no longer a safe bet.

It's sad too at some level because this was a great enginering company and a Canadian success story.

Morglum

Reply Score: 2

It's sad
by Tropheus on Thu 3rd May 2012 20:43 UTC
Tropheus
Member since:
2005-07-11

That on OSnews most people simply don't know why QNX has the most nobel design among all current commercial OSs.

It's also sad that you decide that RIM's next phone will be a too little too late case. I'm expecting the audience of OSnews to be the guys that go out and try/buy products which are not necessarily main-stream.

Do you all own only Wintel computers?!

If you'll take the time and read about the bb10 phone you'll know that:

1. It will be at least on par in terms of hardware with all top phones in the market.

2. It will have the most advanced OS any phone has.

If these 2 reasons don't make you at least consider getting yourself such a phone - I really don't know what are you doing on OSnews.

Reply Score: 4