Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 11th May 2012 22:57 UTC
Windows "The new changes include several new lock-screen images, the Windows Store tile is now green, and the small magnifying glass in the bottom right corner when you scroll has changed to a simple square. While nothing major, they are representative of the across-the-board tweaks we expect to see when the Release Preview hits the digital shelves in June." So, nothing to address the core issues with Windows 8's mouse/keyboard-hostile environment. Sad.
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It's not mouse or keyboard hostile...
by BluenoseJake on Sat 12th May 2012 00:38 UTC
BluenoseJake
Member since:
2005-08-11

It works perfectly fine with a mouse and keyboard, anybody who has ever used a mouse and a keyboard won't like it at first, but it works, and after awhile, you get used to it.

It is broken, however, as soon as you plug in your second monitor, then that damn "charm" bar on the right hand side of your metro monitor is almost eye-stabbingly frustrating to use with a mouse, as it pops up when you are trying to mouse over to the desktop monitor, and you constantly miss it when you want to activate it, your mouse happily scoots over to the desktop.

I don't even know how it'll work with more than one, I only have two. Either way, it's broken. But saying it's mouse and keyboard hostile is hyperbole, at the very least.

Reply Score: 1

Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

BluenoseJake,

"I don't even know how it'll work with more than one, I only have two. Either way, it's broken. But saying it's mouse and keyboard hostile is hyperbole, at the very least."

Having used the previews, I actually think Thom is spot on. Even once we accept that metro is not supposed to be like windows desktop, metro doesn't do a particularly good job standing by it's own merit as a desktop OS - the mouse and keyboard are clumsy, the display lacks visual context & discoverability. Worst of all for windows users the integration between metro and windows desktop is nothing short of awful, IMHO.

Edit:
Here's hoping Nelson is right and they'll fix these things. It would be very nice if, come next year, I can look back and say we were too quick to pass judgment. I just get the feeling they're not going to fix anything in the interface at all; not until it's released and the public complaints begin to arrive.

Edited 2012-05-12 02:30 UTC

Reply Score: 7

BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

I have also used the previews, and I disagree, on one monitor, it's not that bad, in my opinion.

Reply Score: 2

1c3d0g Member since:
2005-07-06

Puhlease. Have you actually tried to work with the damn thing?!? I tried to change settings, there's a simple slider for some things, but for other more complicated options, I have to go back to the "desktop".

But wait, I thought Metro was supposed to be able to handle all the daily chores? Let me answer that for you: IT DOESN'T. You can't even f*cking multitask properly when all the programs are maximized by default (with no taskbar or other way to minimize them either!).

How the hell does M$ expect people to get serious work done?!? Mark my words, this will be way WORSE than Vista. Corporate admins & users will skip this ridiculous Metro crap for sure.

If M$ won't put a setting that disables Metro ENTIRELY, their new O.S. will never take off. For the first time I (and I'm sure many others) are seriously looking at several corporate-backed Linux distro's for our computer needs. Enough is enough! >:|

Reply Score: 9

BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

I am using it, on my laptop, like I said, you get used to it.

Reply Score: 2

l3v1 Member since:
2005-07-06

I am using it, on my laptop, like I said, you get used to it.


I got used to it (I only used it in a vm) after installing start8 and totally avoiding metro apps. But even so, I still kept cursing every time I wanted to try something in it. The only scenario I could imagine to really getting used to it is if I only used it to check the news and the weather.

Reply Score: 3

BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

then you didn't even use it. Man god forbid you actually use something and form an opinion based on that usage. Sounds like to me you didn't even try.

Edited 2012-05-13 14:06 UTC

Reply Score: 3

nej_simon Member since:
2011-02-11

If MS won't put a setting that disables Metro ENTIRELY, their new O.S. will never take off. For the first time I (and I'm sure many others) are seriously looking at several corporate-backed Linux distro's for our computer needs. Enough is enough! >:|


You can I think. Just change the register key RPEnabled under HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explo rer to 0. I haven't tried this myself though.

Although I guess this option could be removed from the final release.

Edited 2012-05-12 09:16 UTC

Reply Score: 2

MollyC Member since:
2006-07-04

You should get used to that.
Apple has ushered in the era where computing devices will have very limited "control panel" functionality. Comptuers are becoming appliances. Just as only trained technicians fool around with an appliance's inner settings, it will increasingly be the case as time goes on that only trained technicians will access a computer device's "control panel" for "low level" settings. The common man user will have access to just a few high-level settings, just as such a user only accesses a few high-level settings on an appliance. And that's what the "charms" are: they are the few high-level settings that a common user might want to access. If you want to access "lower-level" settings, then get your hands dirty and drop down to the desktop and access the control panel.

Even today, there are some Windows settings that can only be manipulated via the NT command line. Those are fairly old settings, but there are newer settings in things like Windows Server or Exchange Server that can only be manipulated via the Powershell command line. So picture this hierarchy:
Charms = highest level settings an everyday user cares about.
Control Panel = lower level settings a "power user" might care about.
PowerShell command line = low level settings for certain things (like Exchange server).
NT command line = even lower level settings that can't be accessed by any of the above methods.
Windows API = programmer's direct access to settings, using a VERY low-level interface. :p

Now, maybe there are some settings that you access a lot that you'd want to access via charms rather than dropping down to the control panel, but I doubt you are the common user. I know that I hardly ever access the control panel or system prefs on my Windows or Mac computers. I'm guessing that the settings provided by the Charms would suffice for me. Other settings I'd so rarely alter, that it'd be no big deal to drop down to the conrol panel to access.

The Metro interface is intentionally simplified (or "dumbed-down"). Putting the entirety of the control panel in the charms would be counterproductive.

Edited 2012-05-12 21:00 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

MollyC,

"Charms = highest level settings an everyday user cares about.
Control Panel = lower level settings a 'power user' might care about.
PowerShell command line = low level settings for certain things (like Exchange server).
NT command line = even lower level settings that can't be accessed by any of the above methods.
Windows API = programmer's direct access to settings, using a VERY low-level interface. :p"

Well speaking only for myself, I don't mind MS removing more advanced functionality from the common control panel to make it friendlier. In fact I think it could be a good idea. They could provide access in some hidden utility like they did with "mmc". Providing access only through an API is extreme, but I could live with it since we could write 3rd party utilities ourselves...no problem. The problem I do have is when functionality (like VMs, independently installing 3rd party apps, dual booting, etc) isn't available in any form at all to the owners because MS wants to control how we use our own devices. MS crosses a moral line (assuming they were ever on the right side of it to begin with) when they prohibit us from using our own devices in completely legal ways.

"The Metro interface is intentionally simplified (or 'dumbed-down'). Putting the entirety of the control panel in the charms would be counterproductive."

I'd hesitate to call it "charms", but I agree.

"You should get used to that."

You're right, it is a sign of more things to come, which is why it's so troubling.

Edited 2012-05-12 23:18 UTC

Reply Score: 3

SustainedHavoc Member since:
2011-09-15

I think this is where the secondary market will shine. Those that intend to use and praise the changes will, those who must use it but hate it will look for something to alter it, much like the little program that took the ribbon out of Office.
I'm a Mint/Ubuntu fan, but still run XP/7 @ work, and I downloaded/ran the Consumer Preview to check compatibility with 1 of our programs. It works and I can competently say I'll not be switching, so win/win.

Reply Score: 1

Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

It's not hyperbole, it's the plain truth. Using a mouse and keyboard on Windows 8 Metro is like using a mouse and keyboard on Android: Awkward and alien. Metro is designed with touch in mind; that much is painfully obvious based on the type of mouse gestures required to properly interact with it.

And besides, we all know that's the direction Microsoft wants to go based on what they've been saying over the past year or so. In their eyes, the mouse is headed for the Recycle Bin for good.

Reply Score: 5

sagum Member since:
2006-01-23

It's not hyperbole, it's the plain truth. Using a mouse and keyboard on Windows 8 Metro is like using a mouse and keyboard on Android: Awkward and alien. Metro is designed with touch in mind; that much is painfully obvious based on the type of mouse gestures required to properly interact with it.


One of the biggest issues is the swipe action performed by the mouse wheel. Left and right swipes work well due to the elbo and wrist action but on a mouse? The mouse wheel goes up and down and the window scrolls left and right, er.. yeah.

Non-metro apps are lanuched from the start screen in single instance and will just goto said application if you click or even press enter (when searched for) to load it up again. So rather then hitting start on the keyboard, typing "no" and pressing return, to load a new instance of notepad, I'm now having to go to my mouse, and middle click (thats the wheel if your mouse supports it) the notepad icon on the task bar to load another instance.

Hopefully, there will be a PowerToys.cpl released to unlock the OS. ;)

I'm happy to see Microsoft trying to push to the next level but without the core metro apps - that everyone uses - working better then the desktop versions of said apps, people won't want to move over to the metro startscreen way of doing things.

Reply Score: 1

BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

I think it is hyperbole, I find it usable, and all the keyboard shortcuts are there, and some new ones, on one monitor, it's fine.

Reply Score: 2

moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

I agree.

Also tried it on my laptop and it was ok.

But then I also like Unity, so what do I know? ;)

Reply Score: 2

BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

Now see, I hate unity, but it's that damn unified menu, I prefer my apps self contained, each apps menu in the app itself. But that's just me.

Reply Score: 2

Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

Don't get me wrong, I really like Metro as a touch based interface. I feel that it is miles ahead of iOS and Android in that respect. But Microsoft should have left it off of traditional mouse-driven desktops and saved it for the RT tablets and touch based laptops.

And hey, who is to say the issues with mousing won't be fixed by release or at worst, in the first service pack? I can think of a handful of small tweaks that would make it bearable, and if I can do that I know Microsoft's engineers can do better.

Reply Score: 2

v Three screenshots..
by Nelson on Sat 12th May 2012 02:20 UTC
RE: Three screenshots..
by Luminair on Sat 12th May 2012 03:11 UTC in reply to "Three screenshots.."
Luminair Member since:
2007-03-30

microsoft removed the start menu and bet the company on metro. this has been done and there is no indication of change. you picked the wrong battle

Reply Score: 3

v RE[2]: Three screenshots..
by windywoo on Sat 12th May 2012 03:25 UTC in reply to "RE: Three screenshots.."
RE[3]: Three screenshots..
by Alfman on Sat 12th May 2012 04:13 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Three screenshots.."
Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

windywoo,

"Yeah you picked the wrong battle. Defending Windows on this site where their minds are about as open as Steve Jobs coffin."

You show me a site where windows 8 hasn't received criticism, and I'll show you a site who's membership consists entirely of fanboys.

All joking aside, there's been strong criticism even at the MSDN blogs consisting of a predominantly pro-microsoft crowd. Some people do like the Metro concept, and that's great for them. But to accuse us of being close minded for having a different opinion, that's a petty thing to say.

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: Three screenshots..
by Nelson on Sat 12th May 2012 04:38 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Three screenshots.."
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

There's nothing wrong with criticism, but this.. is a step beyond.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Three screenshots..
by Alfman on Sat 12th May 2012 05:36 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Three screenshots.."
Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

Nelson,

"There's nothing wrong with criticism, but this.. is a step beyond."

Would you care to elaborate? On the other hand, this topic has been discussed to death already at the time of the previews:

http://www.osnews.com/comments/25662
http://www.osnews.com/comments/25158

There's nothing new to talk about since this tidbit just confirms that there are no substantial changes in the pipes. Whoever liked Metro before will still like it at launch and whoever disliked it before will still dislike it at launch. No one's opinion is wrong, it's just that metro is good for some use cases and bad for others. My hunch is that pro users who are heavily represented on osnews will disproportionately find themselves in the later cases.

Edited 2012-05-12 05:42 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: Three screenshots..
by Morgan on Sat 12th May 2012 05:46 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Three screenshots.."
Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

Whoever liked Metro before will still like it at launch and whoever disliked it before will still dislike it at launch.


Not true. I really liked it at first (probably due to being exposed to the concepts via Windows Phone 7) but the more I used it, the more annoyed and frustrated I became. I'm sorry but without some really smart UI changes to better support mouse-driven input, Metro is a no-go for me.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Three screenshots..
by Nelson on Sat 12th May 2012 15:17 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Three screenshots.."
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

What I mean is judging any improvement or lack thereof without an official build is beyond biased.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Three screenshots..
by WereCatf on Sat 12th May 2012 16:58 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Three screenshots.."
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

What I mean is judging any improvement or lack thereof without an official build is beyond biased.


Hardly. It is a known fact that many companies -- including Microsoft -- often release "leaks" to get feedback on this or that while reserving the ability to say "It's a leak, any issues with it are not our fault." Comparing leaks to official releases is very common and is done to OSX just as it is done to Windows. There is nothing biased about that.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Three screenshots..
by l3v1 on Sat 12th May 2012 11:41 UTC in reply to "Three screenshots.."
l3v1 Member since:
2005-07-06

Release Preview build on feedback from Beta


If so, then I'd really like to have a serious chat with those folks who provided those feedbacks that they've built upon. "Pretty good, just change the backgrounds and some colors here and there." Mmmkay.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Three screenshots..
by Nelson on Sat 12th May 2012 15:16 UTC in reply to "RE: Three screenshots.."
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Because three screenshots a release makes, right? This ani Widows FUD has reached a fever pitch.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Three screenshots..
by Alfman on Sat 12th May 2012 16:13 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Three screenshots.."
Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

Nelson,

"Because three screenshots a release makes, right? This ani Widows FUD has reached a fever pitch."

You are being ridiculous. The screenshots aren't the basis for criticism at all, but the sources who used it said that the screen shots were representative of all the changes since the preview. So unless you want to claim that the source is wrong or misleading us (that's a real possibility), then the fact is that all the previous criticism from our hands on experience still applies... how hard is that to grasp?? It's not FUD on our part at all, it's disappointment that no progress has been made according to the Chinese source. Heck maybe they should have leaked a full copy instead of screenshots to make themselves more credible.

Edited 2012-05-12 16:32 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Three screenshots..
by Nelson on Sat 12th May 2012 19:34 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Three screenshots.."
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

I'm suggesting we reserve criticism, at least on an unreleased build, until the build (which may or may not even be 8375) is released.

It's perfectly fine to discuss the Consumer Preview, because it does have real problems, and how they can be fixed. However, claiming that none of the issues have or will be addressed based on three or four screenshots is absurd.

I don't think the source is wrong, there will not be radical changes, but rather subtle tweaks and polishes to the UI to address some pain points especially regarding Mouse and Keyboard use.

Anyone who thoroughly dislikes the Metro paradigm won't magically like it come the Release Preview, but those, like me, who think it could work with some slight tweaks, will be much happier.

The Mouse+KB issue isn't TERRIBLE in Windows 8, just kind of klunky right now. I think, casting aside Metro criticism, this is a reasonable position to take.

Reply Score: 3

Comment by marcp
by marcp on Sat 12th May 2012 08:47 UTC
marcp
Member since:
2007-11-23

It is kinda normal for Microsoft to address "UI-related" problems publicly and to address the serious ones in their "KB213443XF" format in an obfuscated way ...
Praise Windows! never actually admit its flaws! "we've got enough of flaws already. It's time for success whether it's comming or not! We will make it come by only informing publicly about minor crap and passing the serious stuff somewhere else, so you can't see it!"

Reply Score: 4

changes, d'oh
by l3v1 on Sat 12th May 2012 11:37 UTC
l3v1
Member since:
2005-07-06

Seriously. A few images and some tile colors change and it becomes a news piece on OS and tech sites.

Never ever tell me again Win8 won't have an impact (however sad and disturbing I find that).

Reply Score: 4

RE: changes, d'oh
by maccouch on Sat 12th May 2012 15:09 UTC in reply to "changes, d'oh"
maccouch Member since:
2012-03-14

oh, it will have an impact all right..

it's just everyone is anxiously waiting to see if it will just be a massive clusterf**k that will reshape the world of IT as we know it or just another VIsta/WinME crash and burn.

Either way, we're anxiously waiting for it, with the popcorns, judging remarks and some unavoidable scorn by the sheer dumbness (by MS) this is.

Edited 2012-05-12 15:12 UTC

Reply Score: 1

dekstop mode
by fran on Sat 12th May 2012 16:05 UTC
fran
Member since:
2010-08-06

Please read, memorise

dekstop mode
dekstop mode
dekstop mode
dekstop mode
dekstop mode
dekstop mode
dekstop mode

Reply Score: 3

RE: dekstop mode
by WereCatf on Sat 12th May 2012 17:00 UTC in reply to "dekstop mode"
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

Unfortunately, desktop mode doesn't actually address all the issues of Windows 8 when used with mouse+keyboard, especially when using multiple displays. Besides, why go for Windows 8 in the first place if you're going to use desktop mode on it anyways? That completely defeats the whole purpose of upgrading.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: dekstop mode
by Neolander on Sat 12th May 2012 18:53 UTC in reply to "RE: dekstop mode"
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

Well, I have ONE answer.

The Windows 8 task manager is awesome.

That's all I can think of ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: dekstop mode
by fran on Sun 13th May 2012 11:18 UTC in reply to "RE: dekstop mode"
fran Member since:
2010-08-06

Unfortunately, desktop mode doesn't actually address all the issues of Windows 8 when used with mouse+keyboard, especially when using multiple displays. Besides, why go for Windows 8 in the first place if you're going to use desktop mode on it anyways? That completely defeats the whole purpose of upgrading.


Problems with multiple displays is going to be a real dealbreaker for me. Working on multiple displays is cardinal to my workflow and will wreak havoc on my productivity if it is complicated.
So i hope the Desktop mode do not deviate to far for win 7

Reply Score: 2

What a Complete Mess!
by Ninjawidget on Sat 12th May 2012 16:13 UTC
Ninjawidget
Member since:
2011-08-18

Oh dear lord, what the hell is that thing? It looks a complete and utter mess! Why anyone would want to use that os is beyond me. I've used tablets before and I didn't really see the point in them at all, they're really just fads at the moment that the sheeple are buying in to. More fool them I say. Give me a keyboard and mouse and my productivity goes up tenfold. If I wanted to read a book then I'll go buy something made from paper, that way I don't much care if it gets wet, but a tablet getting wet would pee me off.

So, Microsoft wants to attack the tablet market, fair enough, but don't force people to use a tablet interface on the desktop, just have your Windows Tablet edition, Desktop edition etc. This will alienate so many people who will either not upgrade their Windows machines and you end up with the Windows XP debacle all over again, or they'll go looking for an alternative such as the far more superior Linux.

Actually hell, go on Microsoft, go mess things up as you usually do, the Linux community will be more than happy to pick up the pieces with the disgruntled ex Windows users.

Reply Score: 1

Comment by hoak
by hoak on Sat 12th May 2012 16:33 UTC
hoak
Member since:
2007-12-17

Thom's remark about 'mouse/keyboard-hostile environment' ARE on the side of the facts; the Windows 8 UI is vastly more mouse/keyboard intensive, requiring more user input then the previous OS not less; this is NOT an improvement.

Remarks like 'it works fine' and 'you get used to it' also apply to living in caves, eating raw meat, going barefoot in winter and drinking out of the same pond you shit and piss in...

Where the Windows 8 UI could actually have offered improvements that made the Destop/Workstation application of the OS both more utilitarian, efficient and practical, along the lines of a TWM -- it does not...

Edited 2012-05-12 16:40 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE: Comment by hoak
by viton on Sun 13th May 2012 11:11 UTC in reply to "Comment by hoak"
viton Member since:
2005-08-09

The same was said about GUI. Keyboard die-hards and text-mode masochists are resisted to use GUIs and mouse because it was in-effecient and slow.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by hoak
by hoak on Sun 13th May 2012 18:23 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by hoak"
hoak Member since:
2007-12-17

The same was said about GUI. Keyboard die-hards and text-mode masochists are resisted to use GUIs and mouse because it was in-effecient and slow.

That's an apples/oranges comparison; the premise of the discussion is Windows 7 and Windows 8 GUI design, and the point is that to accomplish the same tasks on Windows 8 requires more User input and interface manipulation then on Windows 7 -- more mouse and/or key presses, more movement through more interface discontinuity, more window manipulation, just to get to the same place.

Windows 8 is NOT an improvement, it's NOT progress in OS or interface design toward making the interface more transparent, seamless, and low drag with respect to actually using a PC to do anything productive. As a passive play-toy, or an end in itself in form without function I'm sure it's just 'Ducky'...

Edited 2012-05-13 18:25 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE: Comment by hoak
by brion on Sun 13th May 2012 18:12 UTC in reply to "Comment by hoak"
brion Member since:
2010-11-04

For launching apps things seem reasonably keyboard-friendly. I'm used to hitting a hotkey, starting to type, then selecting the matching app (or website) in:

* web browsers (URL bar / awesomebar / etc)
* Mac OS X (Spotlight; used Quicksilver before Spotlight got fast enough)
* Windows 7 (Windows key -> Start menu)
* GNOME shell (GNOME-do before that)
* Unity (hud)

As to whether any particular Metro app is keyboard-friendly, well.... that's going to depend on the app developer to be smart -- same as with web pages and web applications which also might need to be used on both keyboard/mouse and touch devices.

As for the mouse, the biggest problem for me is the hotcorners: in a virtual machine or with multiple monitors, it's verrrrry hard to hit a hotcorner.

The mouse hotcorners and the touch swipe gestures are both kinda hard to discover, but I'm reasonably content with the swipes on a tablet once used to them.

Note that there are hotkeys for opening the charms:
windows+C -> open charms bar
windows+Q -> go straight to search
etc

Unfortunately windows+Q doesn't play well with cmd+Q to quit in a VM on a Mac. ;)

Reply Score: 1

"the Windows Store tile is now green"
by Lion on Mon 14th May 2012 06:05 UTC
Lion
Member since:
2007-03-22

Am I the only one that finds the array of random colours annoying?
I like my WP7 device, but there are apps I won't pin to the homescreen because they have a tile colour that doesn't conform to my setting. In Windows 8 it's considerably worse, and I find myself wishing that I could define a tile colour per-grouping.
I did some exploring in the consumer preview and found the xml file where this is defined, but if you change it then windows determines the app to be corrupt and re-downloads it from the marketplace.

Reply Score: 1