Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 21st May 2012 20:03 UTC
Windows For Microsoft, the traditional desktop is old news. It's on its way out, it's legacy, and the harder they claim the desktop has equal rights, the sillier it becomes. With companies, words are meaningless, it's actions that matter, and here Microsoft's actions tell the real story. The company has announced the product line-up for Visual Studio 11, and the free Express can no longer be used to create desktop applications. Message is clear.
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What will their use be?
by silviucc on Mon 21st May 2012 20:36 UTC
silviucc
Member since:
2009-12-05

If one can't develop applications with those tools, what is their use? Oh you can do "Metro" apps. ROFL

Reply Score: 4

RE: What will their use be?
by lucas_maximus on Mon 21st May 2012 21:59 UTC in reply to "What will their use be?"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Express Editions are for hobby and education use only. They aren't supposed to be "hardcore coding suites".

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: What will their use be?
by Vanders on Mon 21st May 2012 22:15 UTC in reply to "RE: What will their use be?"
Vanders Member since:
2005-07-06

Express Editions are for hobby and education use only.


How does that preclude developers wanting to use them for non-Metro applications?

Reply Score: 7

RE[3]: What will their use be?
by lucas_maximus on Mon 21st May 2012 22:28 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: What will their use be?"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Because they are learning Environments, that is it.

One does not need WinForm, WPF and all the other gumpth to do some simple app programming.

If you want to develop non-metro application there is the older VS Express Editions (you can still download the old versions) or use a different framework of your choice.

Edited 2012-05-21 22:30 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: What will their use be?
by Thom_Holwerda on Mon 21st May 2012 22:34 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: What will their use be?"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Way to miss the point. This is not about other options, this is about what is signals: the end of the desktop, even though Metro is virtually useless.

Reply Score: 9

v RE[5]: What will their use be?
by lucas_maximus on Mon 21st May 2012 23:10 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: What will their use be?"
RE[6]: What will their use be?
by Laurence on Tue 22nd May 2012 09:38 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: What will their use be?"
Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26

Before you start to accuse people of voting you down because "haters gonna hate", let me point out the rubbish you've posted:


I don't doubt that Microsoft don't want people to learn things like WinForms and all the other gumpth. It is shit, it is old ... it is very 1990s way of developing.

old != shit

The very fact that cascading windows has survived this long is because it make a lot of sense for desktops.

Redefining the desktop paradigm to suit tablets doesn't make any more sense than having a start menu and cascading windows on smart phones.


But I really don't think a lot of people want to learn [WinForms] either.

The face is Thom that people don't want to use the older techs like WinForms, MFC and all the other crap

You may be content writing websites, but most application developers are not.


... it is just a bit shit tbh.

That's your opinion. Personally I think HTML with embedded JS is more than just a bit shit for building modern interactive websites. The thought of having to build stand alone applications with this technology horrifies me.


There are still plenty of .NET shops that are heavily invested in the older technologies such as WinForm, MFC etc and I don't think support for that will end until a good few years.

Well obviously, otherwise MS would lose a lucrative gaming market as well as the creative professionals that prefer PCs to Macs.

I'm sure Sony and Apple wouldn't mind though ;)

Anyway as you happen to know "more operating system in you little finger" than I do, I am sure you will be able to find one that has a Windowing tiling system to meet your needs.

It's ironic you make such a condescending comment about Thom's lack of OS knowledge while making two fundamental faults in the same sentence:

1/ You can have a tiling window manager and still support WinForms (et al). It's not an either / or argument.

2/ For most people a tiling window manager is completely inappropriate for the desktop. So switching from Metro to xyz still wouldn't be an improvement on the existing explorer.exe shell.


Gnome 2 I have heard is very similar to Windows 95.

http://piestar.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/lucid_vs_windows.png

If you had even the slightest idea what you were talking about, you'd realise how idiotic that statement is.

Most people bitch about GNOME 2.x being an Mac OS knock off and you're comparing it to Windows. Just lol.

Edited 2012-05-22 09:43 UTC

Reply Score: 8

RE[7]: What will their use be?
by lucas_maximus on Tue 22nd May 2012 13:12 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: What will their use be?"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

old != shit


When it comes to WinForms way of programming, it is very dated (very similar to Java Swing which is from the 90s).

There are better options now with .NET (such as XAML), we shouldn't be encouraging people to use older techniques when they are better ones.

The very fact that cascading windows has survived this long is because it make a lot of sense for desktops.


The classic desktop isn't going away, just maybe WinForms.

Redefining the desktop paradigm to suit tablets doesn't make any more sense than having a start menu and cascading windows on smart phones.


It isn't, I been running Windows 8 now for quite a while and I disagree totally. Also Microsoft are still making improvements to the "classic" desktop such as

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/05/21/enhancing-windows-8-f...

Dual Taskbar etc. They wouldn't be introducing these things if it was getting "killed".

You may be content writing websites, but most application developers are not.


That wasn't what I was talking about. People are comparing the Express Edition (which is cut down a little to much IMO) to the full Visual Studio Suite.

It is for learning the principles of the framework and the languages. The applications you are likely to create are small and won't have a lot of functionality ... similar to those that maybe used with Metro interface.

That's your opinion. Personally I think HTML with embedded JS is more than just a bit shit for building modern interactive websites. The thought of having to build stand alone applications with this technology horrifies me.


If you use JS libraries and use sensible design patterns like MV-VM (knockout.js) for JS/Ajax/Markup generation and use a Server side MVC framework such as RoR, ASP.NET MVC it isn't that painful ... in fact it is fun.

It is painful if you try to custom create everything or hack it which is what most people inexperienced with Development may do.

It depends what you like doing. But nevertheless Microsoft are pushing these platforms quite hard now.

Well obviously, otherwise MS would lose a lucrative gaming market as well as the creative professionals that prefer PCs to Macs.


The point is that the Express version of the product is not aimed at these developers. Express is for new developers to learn the "recommended" technologies.

The sort of application you would be making with Express would be metro (if downloading the desktop version) or it would be a blog or something using the Web Express edition.

You cannot make significantly complex applications (without it being a very painful experience) with Express because some of the more advanced features such as intellitrace just aren't included.

I would have thought this is obvious intent. That is why I didn't care for the analysis because it wasn't considering what sort of application one would make (as I alluded to earlier in this comment).

If you had even the slightest idea what you were talking about, you'd realise how idiotic that statement is.

Most people bitch about GNOME 2.x being an Mac OS knock off and you're comparing it to Windows. Just lol.


Well most people are wrong, including you. Gnome 2 can be easily re-jigged to make it work like Window XP/2000 (in fact Suse 9.2 actually shipped with this setup because business clients were used to using Windows 2000/XP).

The full argument is posted here

http://piestar.net/2010/05/01/ubuntu-10-04-lipstick-lynx/

MacOSX doesn't have a global Taskbar (showing open windows) like Windows, Gnome2 and XFCE (can have). The task bar is application centric, i.e. it shows the menu bar for the application.

Fundamentally I think Gnome2 is more like the classic Windows 95-XP interface.

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2009/01/dock-and-wind...

Edited 2012-05-22 13:18 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: What will their use be?
by FunkyELF on Tue 22nd May 2012 16:03 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: What will their use be?"
FunkyELF Member since:
2006-07-26

Personally I think HTML with embedded JS is more than just a bit shit for building modern interactive websites. The thought of having to build stand alone applications with this technology horrifies me.


No kidding. Who would want to have to use HTML, JS, SVG, CSS, XML, etc to create a stand alone application.

Its like someone thought "Since web apps can't be as nice as native apps, lets force native apps to use the same tech so they'll be just as crappy"

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: What will their use be?
by WorknMan on Mon 21st May 2012 23:40 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: What will their use be?"
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

Way to miss the point. This is not about other options, this is about what is signals: the end of the desktop, even though Metro is virtually useless.


I'll believe MS is REALLY serious about Metro when they port MS Office and Visual Studio to it. Which they can't do for now, because Metro is little more than a toy shell for tech tards.

Until that time comes though, I'll consider Metro as one of their little experiments that they might or might not abandon, depending on how well (or not) it catches on.

Reply Score: 8

RE[4]: What will their use be?
by Vanders on Tue 22nd May 2012 10:04 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: What will their use be?"
Vanders Member since:
2005-07-06

There are massive amounts of "legacy" applications that will be around for a long, long, time. Those applications will require developers to maintain them in the future. Those developers have to learn somewhere.

This is a footgun move from Microsoft. They're basically relegating their legacy platform to the status of COBOL.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: What will their use be?
by henderson101 on Tue 22nd May 2012 21:31 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: What will their use be?"
henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

Moreover, the Express editions have been licensed to allow use for commercial development since the 2008 release.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: What will their use be?
by sithlord2 on Tue 22nd May 2012 07:28 UTC in reply to "RE: What will their use be?"
sithlord2 Member since:
2009-04-02

Messing with native Windows API calls IS my hobby :-p

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: What will their use be?
by howitzer86 on Tue 22nd May 2012 18:15 UTC in reply to "RE: What will their use be?"
howitzer86 Member since:
2008-02-27

Is that officially or just in your opinion? I work for a general contractor and had to read the EULA line by line to make sure I wasn't violating it by installing it there. My goal was to make plugins for Autodesk Revit 2013. After reading it, I concluded that there was no barrier to my usage of it in a company, for a company.

At the moment, I'm worried about future access to Express if I need to reinstall it... or if I'll actually have to use Windows 8 at work just to use VS 11, which will also have to be bought this time, JUST to make plugins for a future version of Revit. Programming by-the-way is not my primary function, if I end up having to request new software purchases, they may just decide not to bother and I'll just have to not make my plugins at work.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: What will their use be?
by lucas_maximus on Wed 23rd May 2012 05:12 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: What will their use be?"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Yes there is nothing stopping you from using it, but the primary target for Express is learning and hobbyists.

I have made small commercial websites using Express and you can certainly make useful things, but you are missing out on some of the more useful aspects of Visual Studio.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: What will their use be?
by henderson101 on Tue 22nd May 2012 21:33 UTC in reply to "RE: What will their use be?"
henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

Express Editions are for hobby and education use only. They aren't supposed to be "hardcore coding suites".


No, incorrect. Microsoft lifted that restriction 4 years ago. Also, SQL Server Express has no restrictions about commercial use either now.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: What will their use be?
by lucas_maximus on Wed 23rd May 2012 05:10 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: What will their use be?"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

I appreciate the restrictions been lifted, but the Visual Studio Express is soo cut down, you can make a small e-commerce website out of it.

It is still meant for learning and hobbyists.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: What will their use be?
by henderson101 on Wed 23rd May 2012 07:46 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: What will their use be?"
henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

Not at all. It depends on what school of development you come from. When I started development, Intelisense and code completion did not exist. I had to type 100% of the code, and you know what? I knew what to type. Relying on the IDE to do all the work verges on brogrammer. Not that I'm implying you are incapable of any of the above, but honestly, it's down to your own way of working.

Honestly, Indy development houses do use Visual Studio 2010 express, especially for Niche .Net 4.0, which isn't available in 2008 anyway. People are making good money from free tools. This also completely ignores Sharp Develop and Mono Develop, the latter being more or less on a par with Express.

Reply Score: 3

v RE[5]: What will their use be?
by lucas_maximus on Wed 23rd May 2012 09:13 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: What will their use be?"
RE[6]: What will their use be?
by henderson101 on Wed 23rd May 2012 11:51 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: What will their use be?"
henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

OMG ... I can't believe you are pulling the "Real Developers don't need an IDE card".


No I'm not. I said, over reliance on the IDE to do all of the work is a common sign of a brogrammer. For example, I code every day and I've never touched re-sharper. Apparently you find that astonishing. I also use Winforms, because our entire application suite was written in 2002 and the cost of redeveloping it with every whim that Microsoft has is not desirable. We could stay on VS2008 forever, should we choose to.


Also .NET 4.0 is hardly "niche", any .NET 2.0+ project can easily be upgraded.


OMG.. please! It's a whole new VM backend. 2.0 to 3.5 is a safe bet, but 4.0 - no. That would require a complete regression test of all software. If it ain't broken, no point in fixing it. As we deal with corporations, Windows XP and Windows 7 are here to stay for us for the foreseeable future. The only reason we may have to move to 4 is ASP.Net MVC and Razor.

Anyway from the horses mouth,

"Visual Studio 2010 Express is a set of free, entry-level products with streamlined interfaces and core capabilities that help you create applications for a single platform."


Yeah, "entry level". In no way does that mean "student and learning". Honestly, if I buy and "entry level" Car in a specific range, do I have to be a learner driver? No. Same deal here. You are incorrect, plain and simple. Nowhere on the Microsoft MSDN or VS sites do they state "Express is intended only for education" or words to that effect. Nowhere.

The "educational and non profit" exclusion was removed because MS wanted to push the platform, e.g. if you installed any of the early XNA versions, you were *required* to use the express version. It was actually impossible to install them in a retail/MSDN version of the Visual Studio shell.

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: What will their use be?
by lucas_maximus on Wed 23rd May 2012 12:03 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: What will their use be?"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

No I'm not. I said, over reliance on the IDE to do all of the work is a common sign of a brogrammer. For example, I code every day and I've never touched re-sharper. Apparently you find that astonishing. I also use Winforms, because our entire application suite was written in 2002 and the cost of redeveloping it with every whim that Microsoft has is not desirable. We could stay on VS2008 forever, should we choose to.


Yes you did.

I don't use Resharper, but anything that makes my job quicker and easier ... I am up for it.

That doesn't make me a "brogrammer", it makes me want to be more productive. If tools like Resharper and Code Rush help me become more productive, then I am all up for them.

However I am pretty fed up of being told by developers that I am "not as good as them" because I choose to use things that make me more productive as for some reason that makes me a lesser being.

OMG.. please! It's a whole new VM backend. 2.0 to 3.5 is a safe bet, but 4.0 - no. That would require a complete regression test of all software. If it ain't broken, no point in fixing it. As we deal with corporations, Windows XP and Windows 7 are here to stay for us for the foreseeable future. The only reason we may have to move to 4 is ASP.Net MVC and Razor.


So because you don't use it ... it is suddenly niche?

I appreciate it is a new VM, but I haven't seen anything break being run on 4.0 as yet.

Yeah, "entry level". In no way does that mean "student and learning". Honestly, if I buy and "entry level" Car in a specific range, do I have to be a learner driver? No. Same deal here. You are incorrect, plain and simple. Nowhere on the Microsoft MSDN or VS sites do they state "Express is intended only for education" or words to that effect. Nowhere.


The car analogy ... here we go.


Everywhere I have worked that was a Microsoft House, it was Visual Studio Pro or above and SQL Server Developer Edition.

You can argue the toss all your want, but it is a cut down product to give people a "taster" ... it is pretty freaking obvious to me and most other people I have spoken to at my work.

I am pretty bored with this conversation so I am out.

Edited 2012-05-23 12:12 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Your are right, Thom
by churlish_Helmut on Mon 21st May 2012 20:46 UTC
churlish_Helmut
Member since:
2010-04-12

Yes. Its a shame. Metro on Smartphones and Tablets are a big deal, but un the desktop?

I mean, i can't just think of a metro application of SPSS or Stata, thus i need them for university. And just think of self programmed applications for other scientific use? For years they will be sticked on Windows 7.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Your are right, Thom
by lucas_maximus on Mon 21st May 2012 22:00 UTC in reply to "Your are right, Thom"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Err Visual Studio Express being Metro only, does not mean you can't run Matlab or whatever on Windows 8.

I will seriously LMAO if they have a VS11 C++ edition, after this comment.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Your are right, Thom
by l3v1 on Tue 22nd May 2012 06:24 UTC in reply to "RE: Your are right, Thom"
l3v1 Member since:
2005-07-06

Err Visual Studio Express being Metro only, does not mean you can't run Matlab or whatever on Windows 8.


Uhmm, because Matlab equals science? Oh my. While there are fields where Matlab could do everything (I highly doubt that), there are a lot, where it's just not enough. E.g. almost all of our coding is for scientific purposes, yet if I would need to add all my Matlab use in a year, it would most certainly be less than a month. We can't drop Windows coding, since most of our colleagues live only in Windows-land, some of us gradually move most of our coding (99% c++) to Linux. Why? Performance, stability (including less idiotic changes), and c++ compilers and good editors won't go away anytime soon.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Your are right, Thom
by BlackV on Tue 22nd May 2012 07:00 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Your are right, Thom"
BlackV Member since:
2012-04-23

Well, command-line tools provided by Windows SDK aren't going away. And they are provided for free, including C/C++ MSVC compilers. No IDE, yep. But if you need IDE you can find one beside MSVS. There are SharpDevelop for .net development and I think it is possible to use Eclipse CDT with MSVC.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Your are right, Thom
by gilboa on Tue 22nd May 2012 08:53 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Your are right, Thom"
gilboa Member since:
2005-07-06

Well, command-line tools provided by Windows SDK aren't going away. And they are provided for free, including C/C++ MSVC compilers. No IDE, yep. But if you need IDE you can find one beside MSVS. There are SharpDevelop for .net development and I think it is possible to use Eclipse CDT with MSVC.


While in general you are correct that cl.exe / link.exe is available as a part of the Windows SDK, MS' C/C++ compiler has been more-or-less neglected in last ~5+ years, while both GCC and LLVM-clang have been quick to advance.
A couple of months ago I compile a piece of cross platform DPI software using both GCC-MinGW (4.6) and VS2K10 and in most aspects, GCC was 10-15% faster.
Keep in mind that in-order to maintain VS2KX compatibility the code doesn't include GCC specific optimizations (E.g. macros w/ return value) that could further increase the gap.

- Gilboa

Edited 2012-05-22 08:54 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Your are right, Thom
by malxau on Tue 22nd May 2012 12:09 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Your are right, Thom"
malxau Member since:
2005-12-04

Well, command-line tools provided by Windows SDK aren't going away. And they are provided for free, including C/C++ MSVC compilers...


Actually...

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/hardware/hh852363.aspx

"The Windows SDK no longer ships with a complete command-line build environment. The Windows SDK now requires a compiler and build environment to be installed separately."

Reply Score: 5

RE[5]: Your are right, Thom
by moondevil on Tue 22nd May 2012 13:34 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Your are right, Thom"
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

Thanks for the heads up.

Reply Score: 2

Proof?
by pepo on Mon 21st May 2012 20:47 UTC
pepo
Member since:
2009-06-19

The text you linked to says "(* To create desktop applications for Windows 8, you need to use Visual Studio 11 Professional, or higher, Microsoft says.)" Did I interprete anything wrong?

Reply Score: 1

RE: Proof?
by drcouzelis on Mon 21st May 2012 21:15 UTC in reply to "Proof?"
drcouzelis Member since:
2010-01-11

I downloaded the Visual Studio 11 Beta Product Guide from microsoft.com and read it a bit. It has a chart near the beginning that very clearly states:

Development Platform Support

Windows Metro-style Application Development: (All versions checked)

Desktop Windows Application Development: (Only paid versions checked)

...I'm sure the document has more detailed information, but I only gave it a quick glance.

Edited 2012-05-21 21:22 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE: Proof?
by MollyC on Wed 23rd May 2012 16:54 UTC in reply to "Proof?"
MollyC Member since:
2006-07-04

The text you linked to says "(* To create desktop applications for Windows 8, you need to use Visual Studio 11 Professional, or higher, Microsoft says.)" Did I interprete anything wrong?


I think that means, "If you are using VS 11, you need Professional version or higher to create desktop W8 apps."

But one can still use VS2010 Express to create such apps, and VS2010 Express will continue to be supported and made available for downloading.
See: http://www.osnews.com/permalink?518904

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Proof?
by pbassjunk on Wed 23rd May 2012 22:29 UTC in reply to "RE: Proof?"
pbassjunk Member since:
2009-09-20

VS2010 doesn't run on Windows 8.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Proof?
by MollyC on Thu 24th May 2012 16:37 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Proof?"
MollyC Member since:
2006-07-04

VS2010 doesn't run on Windows 8.


I've seen this claim multiple times, but I can't find any source. Can you provide a link?
Thanks.

Reply Score: 2

Twitter OS
by Moredhas on Mon 21st May 2012 20:48 UTC
Moredhas
Member since:
2008-04-10

I'll restate what I've said before: I want nothing to do with Twitter OS. Unfortunately, as a computer salesman and technician, I'm going to have to learn to like it, no matter how painful it gets. People are already not educating themselves enough to do simple things with their computers, they take the attitude that because we're there to fix them, they don't need to learn how to use them (imagine applying that logic to cars, don't bother learning how to drive, the mechanic can fix your fuckups, and you can act all indignant when he expects to be paid for it!). Just wait until an entire new paradigm gets dropped on the average-Joe user. Most of the people using computers today, I think it would be fair to say, never used anything but Windows XP, with a percentage of those people migrating to 7 when they were left with no choice (but there are a lot of XP machines still going through our workshop), and people hate change. They hate the superficial cosmetic differences between XP and 7 (from a use-case scenario, but there is a lot less superficial stuff going on under the hood), and they're going to loathe having their much practiced desktop taken away. A Windows 8 world will really lower the barrier for people not in the know to get a Mac, or at least raise the barrier to Windows high enough that a Mac seems an easier option, and among the technically inclined, it might push some small growth to Linux. I wouldn't count on that, though. Year of the Linux Desktop will never come, unless someone like Canonical can team up with a big vendor who'll exclusively push Linux in their lineup, and actually market it (unlike Dell, who had less than a handfull of Linux machines on offer, buried them in their website, and had "Dell recommends Windows 7" banners plastered all around them).

Reply Score: 1

RE: Twitter OS
by lucas_maximus on Mon 21st May 2012 21:35 UTC in reply to "Twitter OS"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Lrn 2 Paragraph.

Reply Score: 3

Fine for a free tool.
by BlackV on Mon 21st May 2012 20:52 UTC
BlackV
Member since:
2012-04-23

Aren't this exactly normal in case Microsoft wan't to get rid of legacy APIs?

Metro won't get new applications if no one is willing to write them. Giving free tools which can produce only Metro style applications is logical way to direct freeware and shareware developers or students in that direction.

Reply Score: 4

No problem
by reduz on Mon 21st May 2012 20:54 UTC
reduz
Member since:
2006-02-25

Will just use mingw, which works fine.

Reply Score: 4

RE: No problem
by ssokolow on Mon 21st May 2012 22:22 UTC in reply to "No problem"
ssokolow Member since:
2010-01-21

Will just use mingw, which works fine.


The question is what newcomers will use. I wonder if mingw-based IDEs primarily geared for alternative class libraries (eg. Qt Designer) will gain any market share from this.

Reply Score: 6

RE[2]: No problem
by Nelson on Mon 21st May 2012 23:20 UTC in reply to "RE: No problem"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

I'll save you the wondering. The answer is no.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: No problem
by Nth_Man on Tue 22nd May 2012 11:33 UTC in reply to "RE: No problem"
Nth_Man Member since:
2010-05-16

The Qt creator
http://qt.nokia.com/products/developer-tools
installer includes everything to start developing applications. And it's free/libre software :-) .

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: No problem
by MORB on Tue 22nd May 2012 12:00 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: No problem"
MORB Member since:
2005-07-06

Yep, just use qt creator.

Visual C++ is a terrible IDE anyway, and Qt is a much better toolkit than microsoft ever managed to make (I've used MFC, windows forms and WPF, and they're all shit in a way or another)

No big loss.

Edited 2012-05-22 12:00 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: No problem
by pgquiles on Tue 22nd May 2012 20:15 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: No problem"
pgquiles Member since:
2006-07-16

Ironically Qt Creator 2.5, released last week, no longer includes MinGW. They removed it because of legal reasons:

"updating the shipped version is a legal hassle as long as the binaries are provided through Nokia"

http://labs.qt.nokia.com/2012/05/09/qt-creator-2-5-0-released/

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: No problem
by Nth_Man on Wed 23rd May 2012 00:25 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: No problem"
Nth_Man Member since:
2010-05-16

Pau: ja m'has fastidiat :-)

Thanks! While they work on the new Qt SDK version, which would include Qt Creator 2.5, in https://qt.nokia.com/downloads we are reminded that "Qt Creator IDE can also be downloaded as a standalone application, although we recommend to get it via the SDK".

The present Qt SDK version, 1.2.1, released on April 11th, that can be downloaded from https://qt.nokia.com/downloads, contains:
- Qt libraries version 4.8.1
- Simulator for Symbian phones and the Nokia N9
- Qt Creator IDE version 2.4.1
- Qt Mobility version 1.2
- Qt development tools
- Remote compilers
In Windows, that is
- Online installer - 15 MB
- Offline installer - 1.7 GB
1.7 GB only if someone wants to install *everything* (!)

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: No problem
by darkcoder on Wed 23rd May 2012 01:02 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: No problem"
darkcoder Member since:
2006-07-14

Ironically Qt Creator 2.5, released last week, no longer includes MinGW. They removed it because of legal reasons:

"updating the shipped version is a legal hassle as long as the binaries are provided through Nokia"

http://labs.qt.nokia.com/2012/05/09/qt-creator-2-5-0-released/

But you forgot to specify that Nokia said their main reason is that the compiler is already provided in the SDK, and wanted the IDE to be more independent (used by people who has latest MinGW installed).

Edited 2012-05-23 01:03 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: No problem
by pgquiles on Wed 23rd May 2012 12:41 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: No problem"
pgquiles Member since:
2006-07-16

But you forgot to specify that Nokia said their main reason is that the compiler is already provided in the SDK, and wanted the IDE to be more independent (used by people who has latest MinGW installed).


That was already possible. I have been using mingw-w64 builds for a long time already.

I'd say the main reason they have removed MinGW is the "please ship a newer version of MinGW" was a recurrent topic in the mailing list. And then people would argue about mingw.org vs mingw-w64 vs TDM vs something else. Those were very long threads.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: No problem
by henderson101 on Tue 22nd May 2012 21:34 UTC in reply to "RE: No problem"
henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

Personally, for Windows .Net dev, I'd look at Mono Develop or Sharp Develop. Probably the latter.

Reply Score: 2

And?
by Nelson on Mon 21st May 2012 21:19 UTC
Nelson
Member since:
2005-11-29

Most people using VS Express were using it for WP7 development anyway. Any serious developer couldn't stand to not have Resharper or Unit Testing.

That being said, you're free to use VS10 Express and target the Desktop. Either that, or use Dreamspark to get VS11 Pro if you're a Student.

For the hobbyist developer, Metro is the future. They largely don't care.

People doing heavy LOB WPF or WinForms can use the options above.

VS Express hasn't always existed, this is nothing world ending.

Reply Score: 2

RE: And?
by bnolsen on Tue 22nd May 2012 02:00 UTC in reply to "And?"
bnolsen Member since:
2006-01-06

serious developers write crossplatform code with primary development on a unix platform where coding isn't hampered by stupid build limtations and does verification testing using release only builds on the windows platform. The express edition is quite sufficient for serious development builds.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: And?
by Nelson on Tue 22nd May 2012 02:06 UTC in reply to "RE: And?"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Then use Visual Studio 2010. Knock yourself out. Either that, or port your application to metro.

If they're VSDs ( very serious developers ) the your application should be architected in a way to make this feasible. If not, use another compiler, or an older IDE.

Besides, if you use a command line based build system, the vc11 compiler will still spit out code.

Reply Score: 2

hmm
by TechGeek on Mon 21st May 2012 21:23 UTC
TechGeek
Member since:
2006-01-14

I would like to point this article out to all the people bashing Mozilla for complaining about lock out. The desktop is dead and Mozilla needs to be a full player in the mobile market.

Reply Score: 3

Before people lose their shit
by lucas_maximus on Mon 21st May 2012 21:39 UTC
lucas_maximus
Member since:
2009-08-18

VS Express has never always been about, and has always been "express".

VS2005/2008/2010 ... Web, Desktop (managaged), C++.

Express is always to get hobbyist and students to get them using Microsoft's latest tools.

I am honestly not surprised at all.

Now will SQL Management Express Management Studio be Metro? .. that will be interesting!

@Thom, Micorsoft in the development space have been pushing heavily for developers to keep upto date with their latest tech.

Let me list the first few from the top of my head ..

LINQ, EF Code First, NuGet, ASP.NET MVC, ASP.NET Web API, Signal R, Github (yes they are pushing Git/Gibhub over TFS).

Lets not forget they have also mentioned projects like Nancy and Service Stack.NET which run on Mono and ASP.NET

Read some .NET tech blogs for christ sakes.

Edited 2012-05-21 21:52 UTC

Reply Score: 3

Seems straight forward enough
by jessesmith on Mon 21st May 2012 21:47 UTC
jessesmith
Member since:
2010-03-11

People creating legacy desktop apps can either stick with VS 2010 Express, if they're on a budget, or upgrade to the latest professional version. The latest full version of Visual Studio will continue to support desktop applications. Turn the issue around, why would Microsoft support legacy software in the free version of their suite?

Reply Score: 1

RE: Seems straight forward enough
by MamiyaOtaru on Tue 22nd May 2012 03:25 UTC in reply to "Seems straight forward enough"
MamiyaOtaru Member since:
2005-11-11

Turn the issue around, why would Microsoft support legacy software in the free version of their suite?

and that's exactly the point. MS says the desktop is not being abandoned, but it's clearly considered legacy

Reply Score: 3

nail & coffin....
by TomF on Mon 21st May 2012 22:11 UTC
TomF
Member since:
2010-01-22

shame really... win7 was real good and still running my home-pc. Laptops on Mac/Fedora though...

ah well, move over MS
Tom UK

Reply Score: 1

v nothing is more tiresome
by Nelson on Mon 21st May 2012 23:19 UTC
Odwalla
Member since:
2006-02-01

...he'd have come across this:
(Those who wish to use just specific languages outside of the platforms can use the legacy Visual Studio 2010 Express editions products, which will still be made available freely.)

So, yes, VSE 11 is Metro only. If you want to create desktop apps please continue to download and use VSE 2010.

Reply Score: 1

MollyC
Member since:
2006-07-04

You assume that it will be only used for "toys", but I think you'll be mistaken on that.
For example:
http://www.theverge.com/2012/3/20/2886608/microsoft-metro-dynamics-...

http://blogs.technet.com/b/next/archive/2012/04/26/microsoft-dynami...

Besides that, but "buzz" is that Office 16 will be metro. We'll see, I guess.

Reply Score: 2

redshift Member since:
2006-05-06

You assume that it will be only used for "toys", but I think you'll be mistaken on that.
For example:
http://www.theverge.com/2012/3/20/2886608/microsoft-metro-dynamics-...

http://blogs.technet.com/b/next/archive/2012/04/26/microsoft-dynami...


CEO dashboard toys are still toys.

Reply Score: 1

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Lol calling dynamics crm a toy

Reply Score: 2

redshift Member since:
2006-05-06

Lol calling dynamics crm a toy


Not exactly.... I am calling the reports pinned to metro a toy. Content consuming screenshots were referenced, not content creation.

Edited 2012-05-22 04:28 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Do you think its fundamentally undo able in Metro? It just requires a bit more though than just dumping a data grid with editable cells on form.

Its an interesting discussion to say the least.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by kaiwai
by kaiwai on Tue 22nd May 2012 00:50 UTC
kaiwai
Member since:
2005-07-06

Assuming the rumours are true about WinRT being extended in later versions to support traditional desktop applications then I guess Microsoft wish to get the next generation of programmers used to the new way of programming. If the rumours aren't true then it is going to be a horrific clusterf-ck of a disjointed code base at many software companies who want to simultaneously cater for Metro users as well as traditional win32 desktop users.

Reply Score: 2

What prevents complex apps using Metro
by MacMan on Tue 22nd May 2012 01:42 UTC
MacMan
Member since:
2006-11-19

One can write Metro apps using any .net language or C++.

You can use DirectX in a Metro app:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh465077.aspx

So, whats to prevent writing a complex app, like say blender:
http://www.blender.org/features-gallery/features/

Blender is essentially a full screen app, does not use "traditional" windows style menus, and is a fairly complex app. Does anybody even use blender non-maximised???

Reply Score: 1

1c3d0g Member since:
2005-07-06

And how the f*ck am I supposed to be using my IRC, e-mail client, browser, music player, torrent downloader etc. when I can't even multi-task properly?

Microsoft and everyone else with their shitty pro-Metro stance can say what they want, but you just cannot answer a simple damned question.

No thanks. Power users who want to get real, serious work done will stick with Windows 7, and most will definitely just switch to another platform. Enough with this toy interface bullsh!t.

Reply Score: 7

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Nothing in WinRT functionally prevents this. Wtf are you talking about.

Reply Score: 2

1c3d0g Member since:
2005-07-06

Hello?!? Have you even tried the public Windows 8 beta's? The programs are maximized ALL THE DAMN TIME, and in Microsoft's infinite wisdom, they decided to nix the taskbar, so you can't even take a look at the status of the other programs, let alone switch to other programs and running them side-by-side! How f*cked up is that?

Trust me when I say that Windows 8 will be WAY WORSE than Vista. You haven't seen a flop this bad since Windows ME.

Reply Score: 2

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

You can snap two apps side by side, apps can have toast notifications and live tiles to surface content to the user.

Reply Score: 2

MollyC Member since:
2006-07-04

And how the f*ck am I supposed to be using my IRC, e-mail client, browser, music player, torrent downloader etc. when I can't even multi-task properly?

Microsoft and everyone else with their shitty pro-Metro stance can say what they want, but you just cannot answer a simple damned question.

No thanks. Power users who want to get real, serious work done will stick with Windows 7, and most will definitely just switch to another platform. Enough with this toy interface bullsh!t.


You're showing your ignornace with that comment.

Oh, spare me the "power user" crap. One thing I've come to understand recently is that self-proclaimed "power users" are probably the whiniest babies on the planet. And ironically, "power users" tend to spew the most ignorant nonsense when it comes to tech. I guess it's because they think they know everything and so tend to make authoritative statements more than others. Self-proclaimed "power users" aren't nearly as "tech savvy" as they claim to be.

"Power users". lol Give me a break. lol

Reply Score: 1

Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

MollyC,


"Oh, spare me the 'power user' crap..."

What's wrong with being a power user?

It almost sounds like you are blaming power users for having advanced needs rather than blaming metro for not meeting those needs.

Reply Score: 14

1c3d0g Member since:
2005-07-06

...

"Power users". lol Give me a break. lol

Lol, lol, lol. <--- What are we, 12 years old? I'm not even going to waste my time arguing with someone who clearly has no more intellectual capacity than an ostrich. Enjoy your Metro crap while the rest of us use something superior!

Reply Score: 4

bert64 Member since:
2007-04-23

The windows interface has always been very poor for heavy multitaskers anyway... No virtual workspaces, apps geared up to run maximized, crude ways like alt-tab for switching apps, limited space to display currently running apps.

I typically have 10 virtual workspaces, any of which can be accessed instantly with alt+number, all of which have several apps laid out in them ready to use and i remember which number corresponds to which use.

Reply Score: 3

lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Virtual Workspaces suck if you don't have a good spacial memory (such as I).

Reply Score: 2

zima Member since:
2005-07-06

And how the f*ck am I supposed to be using my IRC, e-mail client, browser, music player, torrent downloader etc.
[...]
Power users who want to get real, serious work done

Making impression of serious work, you mean? ;)

most will definitely just switch to another platform

Yeah, most, just like Vista... (or with DOS to Win shift - the first two releases of the latter were also "pushed")

Reply Score: 2

VS Expres 2010 will continue to be available
by MollyC on Tue 22nd May 2012 02:28 UTC
MollyC
Member since:
2006-07-04

for those that want to use VS Express to make desktop apps.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/visualstudio/archive/2012/05/18/a-look-ahea...

"If you would like to use a language specific Express edition (C# Express, Visual Basic Express, or C++ Express) without specialized tooling for the latest platforms, you can use the Visual Studio 2010 Express editions, which will continue to be available as free downloads."

Reply Score: 2

"The Developer Opportunity": a tale from 2001
by dmrio on Tue 22nd May 2012 02:40 UTC
dmrio
Member since:
2005-08-26

http://www.microsoft.com/net/hailstorm.asp#007" rel="nofollow">http://web.archive.org/web/20010529111319/http://www.microsoft.com/...

Eleven years later, it suddenly seems that all window managers will fade in favor of a (or some) service-based computing platform(s) that will cost us more and more through time.
I just don't like this world anymore.

Edit: please concatenate both URLs
1- http://web.archive.org/web/20010529111319/
2- http://www.microsoft.com/net/hailstorm.asp#007

Edited 2012-05-22 02:43 UTC

Reply Score: 1

"19th Century Dentist"
by tony on Tue 22nd May 2012 03:27 UTC
tony
Member since:
2005-07-06

Former Microsoft Engineer Hal Berenson has a great quote from his blog (http://hal2020.com/2012/02/15/dear-developer-excuse-me-while-i-slap...):

"Consumers increasingly reject the old experiences in both their personal and work lives. For the 20-something and under crowd, the current Windows desktop experience is about as attractive as the thought of visiting a 19th Century dentist.

Reply Score: 3

RE: "19th Century Dentist"
by Nelson on Tue 22nd May 2012 04:04 UTC in reply to ""19th Century Dentist""
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

That entire article is excellent. Puts things in perspective for snobby developers. We serve the consumer, and the trends are overwhelmingly pointing towards a walled garden with curated apps with first class touch support.

PCs have gone mobile which means we need better battery life and that itself necessitates a new execution model. Having all apps running all the time is extremely wasteful.

Microsoft is for once, ahead of the curve when it comes to a converging ecosystem with a strong developer story. This leap into a new era will pay dividends for them.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: "19th Century Dentist"
by Alfman on Tue 22nd May 2012 05:57 UTC in reply to "RE: "19th Century Dentist""
Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

Nelson,


"Puts things in perspective for snobby developers. We serve the consumer, and the trends are overwhelmingly pointing towards a walled garden with curated apps with first class touch support."

Call me cynical, but I believe microsoft wants us to serve their platform *instead* of the consumer.


"PCs have gone mobile which means we need better battery life and that itself necessitates a new execution model. Having all apps running all the time is extremely wasteful."

Not quite. There is absolutely nothing about the old win32s that necessitates applications to be running all the time (foreground or background). At their core, most windows applications are fundamentally built on top of a simple loop which is event oriented. So as long as the operating system is not sending it any events, the majority of existing applications won't use any CPU time. Go ahead and look at the task manager and check to see if your minimized programs are using more than 0% CPU, in the majority of cases the answer is "no".

"Microsoft is for once, ahead of the curve when it comes to a converging ecosystem with a strong developer story. This leap into a new era will pay dividends for them."

It's interesting you should say that. I used to think microsoft was more developer friendly a decade ago when I developed entirely for windows. Then everything changed around the time of Vista. OS programmers like myself were upset to witness our platform imposing new non-elective kernel lockouts and DRM controls that put a huge wrench in open source development. Even commercial developers were shafted when microsoft broke thousands of drivers. And customers were shafted when their hardware was no longer usable. 2K/XP drivers would already work as is if not for the DRM and lockout restrictions designed to make them not work. It was a slap in the face when 3rd party tools designed to allow end users to install XP and open source drivers were banned.


That was really the turning point for me as independent/open source kernel developers were clearly unwelcome on windows any more. Now they're going even further and restricting the installation of user space applications...well this is what I have to say about that:

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=mr+yuck

Edited 2012-05-22 06:08 UTC

Reply Score: 7

RE[3]: "19th Century Dentist"
by Nelson on Tue 22nd May 2012 06:11 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: "19th Century Dentist""
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29


Not quite. There is absolutely nothing about the old win32s that necessitates applications to be running all the time (foreground or background). At their core, most windows applications are fundamentally built on top of a simple loop which is event oriented. So as long as the operating system is not sending it any events, the majority of existing applications won't use any CPU time. Go ahead and look at the task manager and check to see if your minimized programs are using more than 0% CPU, in the majority of cases the answer is "no".


Maybe in a singled threaded world, but most multi threaded applications are consuming CPU resources while minimized.

CPU utilization is just one facet, there's stuff like utilizing the network which can prevent the PC from entering low power states for the network card which becomes a concern. Same thing with audio playback.

I think Metro, with OS managed background tasks (which have strict resource caps and policy imposed) are a great middle ground between battery efficiency and multitasking.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: "19th Century Dentist"
by Alfman on Tue 22nd May 2012 07:14 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: "19th Century Dentist""
Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

Nelson,

"Maybe in a singled threaded world, but most multi threaded applications are consuming CPU resources while minimized."

Certainly an app can spawn threads that consume large amounts of CPU time in the background, however it's likely that these threads are just reacting to more events such as network activity or topping up audio buffers. If you have a music player or P2P app, then running it in the background is often exactly what the user wants (who wants to stare at the P2P screen all day?). Can we say a background application is wasting energy when it's doing what the user wants in the background instead of the foreground?

I think the bigger problem is applications that waste cycles in the background doing non-productive things. One example I'm thinking of now is a game that keeps running even when minimized, but I really don't know if this is a common problem in practice.

"CPU utilization is just one facet, there's stuff like utilizing the network which can prevent the PC from entering low power states for the network card which becomes a concern. Same thing with audio playback."

Well yes, but if the user is playing music or downloading files, he probably doesn't want his device to go to sleep until those tasks are done. I wouldn't classify these things as wasteful when the application is doing what the user wants it to do.

I have to wonder whether shutting everything down in the background (win32s or not) would cause frustration that applications can't do work in the background (like downloading, teleconfrencing, music, etc). If an OS permits these 3rd party background tasks, then I don't see why win32 is worse than alternatives. If it does not, then it should be possible to suspend a win32 application while it is backgrounded.

"I think Metro, with OS managed background tasks (which have strict resource caps and policy imposed) are a great middle ground between battery efficiency and multitasking."

Not to deny this, but I'm not seeing why this excludes the win32s. Although it may seem that way, I'm not really trying to promote win32s, but I'm not convinced their depreciation was motivated by poor resource utilization. I suspect that resource utilization in desktop apps won't be much different than their metro counterparts. Now I might be all wrong, but I haven't seen anything technical to convince me otherwise.


"Thanks for the thoughtful reply."

Thank you as well!

Edited 2012-05-22 07:28 UTC

Reply Score: 5

RE[5]: "19th Century Dentist"
by shollomon on Tue 22nd May 2012 14:20 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: "19th Century Dentist""
shollomon Member since:
2008-07-06

Of course the deprecation of Win32 does not have anything to do with its technical merits or capabilities. WinRT exists for Appstore lock down. It is a business decision not a technical decision, or a decision based on what costumers want. Its based on what customers apparently will tolerate (based on the success to date of iOS) and the fact that MSFT wants 30% of every app sold. Its a straight money grab. If they thought they could do what they are doing with Win32 there would be no WinRT.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: "19th Century Dentist"
by Nelson on Tue 22nd May 2012 15:15 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: "19th Century Dentist""
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

WinRT is an object oriented API with a cross language object model, strong versioning, and brokered permissions. Its not mutually exclusive to metro apps.

In my C++ desktop app, I use WinRT(via WRL) to use networking stuff and behave better wrt mobile networks, data caps, etc. Its all asynchronous using ISO C++, and works a hell of a lot better than writing a wrapper over I/O CP.

Its not ust Metro that benefits, this will make Desktop apps better.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: "19th Century Dentist"
by contextfree on Wed 23rd May 2012 00:49 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: "19th Century Dentist""
contextfree Member since:
2009-06-01

But those APIs are Win8-only. Why the heck would anyone write a Win8-only desktop app?

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: "19th Century Dentist"
by Moochman on Wed 23rd May 2012 12:24 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: "19th Century Dentist""
Moochman Member since:
2005-07-06

WinRT is an object oriented API with a cross language object model, strong versioning, and brokered permissions. Its not mutually exclusive to metro apps.

In my C++ desktop app, I use WinRT(via WRL) to use networking stuff and behave better wrt mobile networks, data caps, etc. Its all asynchronous using ISO C++, and works a hell of a lot better than writing a wrapper over I/O CP.

Its not ust Metro that benefits, this will make Desktop apps better.


This is kind of missing the point. MS has completely blocked desktop apps from running on Windows on ARM and in addition they are removing support for developing desktop apps from the Express edition of Visual Studio. So basically they are strongly "encouraging" everyone to scrap desktop apps and move to Metro.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: "19th Century Dentist"
by Nelson on Tue 22nd May 2012 15:08 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: "19th Century Dentist""
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29


Certainly an app can spawn threads that consume large amounts of CPU time in the background, however it's likely that these threads are just reacting to more events such as network activity or topping up audio buffers. If you have a music player or P2P app, then running it in the background is often exactly what the user wants (who wants to stare at the P2P screen all day?). Can we say a background application is wasting energy when it's doing what the user wants in the background instead of the foreground?


I'm sure the user has a good faith intent, but often this is abused by poorly written programs. Many times I've had to kill tasks of programs which pegged my CPU for no reason.

The Win8 execution model says: "If programA wants to use the Network, it must explicitly state so declaratively, and then when it does, it must behave predictably or be killed."

Background Tasks are limited in CPU usage and memory, and execute for limited amounts of time, so it forces devs to use better practices.

Most programs, realistically, don't need to always be running. The ones that do, there are a bunch of background tasks for them to use.


I think the bigger problem is applications that waste cycles in the background doing non-productive things. One example I'm thinking of now is a game that keeps running even when minimized, but I really don't know if this is a common problem in practice.


I agree, but in my own experience its been more than a few timesI've had to kill tasks.


Well yes, but if the user is playing music or downloading files, he probably doesn't want his device to go to sleep until those tasks are done. I wouldn't classify these things as wasteful when the application is doing what the user wants it to do.


Windows 8 tablets and laptops support ultra low power states in which the network card will wake itself back up when data comes in over the wire. Something that can't be done if an application is polling doing a blocking read.

With Win8 you hand the OS a background task, and you'll have your network data pushed to your app when it comes in, its basically a "Don't call us, we'll call you". In fact, its the only way for Metro apps to maintain a socket connection in the background.

I have to wonder whether shutting everything down in the background (win32s or not) would cause frustration that applications can't do work in the background (like downloading, teleconfrencing, music, etc). If an OS permits these 3rd party background tasks, then I don't see why win32 is worse than alternatives. If it does not, then it should be possible to suspend a win32 application while it is backgrounded.


Its handled like I said above, if you want to learn more you can read up on ControlChannelTrigger for Metro Style Apps.


Not to deny this, but I'm not seeing why this excludes the win32s. Although it may seem that way, I'm not really trying to promote win32s, but I'm not convinced their depreciation was motivated by poor resource utilization. I suspect that resource utilization in desktop apps won't be much different than their metro counterparts. Now I might be all wrong, but I haven't seen anything technical to convince me otherwise.


I think its demonstrably true that Metro Apps use less resources. A great majority of them do not run in the background at all, others use resources moderated by the OS, and there is less resident memory taken up by the apps.

Another point to make is that (for pure Windows RT tablets) is that lower memory consumption by tombstoning background apps can lead to them shipping tablets with less ram and by extension less power draw.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: "19th Century Dentist"
by Alfman on Tue 22nd May 2012 17:29 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: "19th Century Dentist""
Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

Nelson,

"The Win8 execution model says: 'If programA wants to use the Network, it must explicitly state so declaratively, and then when it does, it must behave predictably or be killed.'"

I understand that, but there's no technical reason this kind of meta data couldn't also be applied to win32s, which is just an API. The OS is always free to manage resources like it always has. As an example, the linux kernel can run processes inside cgroups which can monitor process resource usage and apply hard/soft limits whether or not application binaries are aware of them. Adding these features to linux didn't require developers to abandon their APIs and rebuild apps from the ground up. I don't see a technical reason OS resource enforcements in metro cannot be applied against desktop apps if that were a goal.


"Most programs, realistically, don't need to always be running..."

Of course I agree with that, but by far and large I think applications which don't need to be running in the background are *already* not running in the background because the OS isn't sending them any events to handle. And those that are running in the background are doing it because they're doing real work (like an SFTP client transferring files).


"I agree, but in my own experience its been more than a few timesI've had to kill tasks."

I've inadvertently programmed such tasks myself on more than one occasion, but these were quickly discovered, and in principal one could apply the same quotas against both metro and win32 apps such that the performance degradation of endless loops would be the same in either case.


"Windows 8 tablets and laptops support ultra low power states in which the network card will wake itself back up when data comes in over the wire. Something that can't be done if an application is polling doing a blocking read."

Hmm, polling and blocking are totally different approaches. Polling is extremely bad, but I honestly haven't seen too much of that since the days of DOS. Polling has been replaced with various kinds of blocking mechanisms (event passing, asynchronous callbacks, IO threads, ...). In all cases though when a thread is blocked on input it is asleep and not consuming any CPU. The OS chooses when to wake it up to handle new IO events.

"With Win8 you hand the OS a background task, and you'll have your network data pushed to your app when it comes in, its basically a 'Don't call us, we'll call you'."

Then I'll need you to explain how the mechanics are different from a win32 event loop, other than being a different API, since the win32s can also be described as "don't call us, we'll call you".


"I think its demonstrably true that Metro Apps use less resources."

I am skeptical, I'd love a citation for that.


"A great majority of them do not run in the background at all, others use resources moderated by the OS, and there is less resident memory taken up by the apps."

I understand this, but I feel like your insinuating that most win32 apps do run in the background when minimized when I actually think they're blocked on input and are completely asleep. Even if they are not, an OS could always force them to sleep until they're brought back to the foreground as policy demanded.

Again, I'm not trying to undermine the merit in winrt, it may be a wonderful API (apart from certain restrictions...). I just don't know if there's any substance to the argument that win32 inherently wastes more energy.

Edited 2012-05-22 17:41 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE[7]: "19th Century Dentist"
by Nelson on Wed 23rd May 2012 04:21 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: "19th Century Dentist""
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29


I understand that, but there's no technical reason this kind of meta data couldn't also be applied to win32s, which is just an API.


Well, you'd run into compat issues with previous Windows desktop apps. Metro benefits from the clean break and can afford a new execution model.

But furthermore, Metro is more than the sum of its parts. Its an entire cohesive thing. You have an execution model, a cross language abi, language projections, etc.


The OS is always free to manage resources like it always has. As an example, the linux kernel can run processes inside cgroups which can monitor process resource usage and apply hard/soft limits whether or not application binaries are aware of them. Adding these features to linux didn't require developers to abandon their APIs and rebuild apps from the ground up. I don't see a technical reason OS resource enforcements in metro cannot be applied against desktop apps if that were a goal.


Well, the end goal isn't to make things harder. Its to enforce these policies, and provide facilities to do things the right way. That's the value prop of WinRT. Yes there are restrictions, but here are ways to play within our sandbox.


Of course I agree with that, but by far and large I think applications which don't need to be running in the background are *already* not running in the background because the OS isn't sending them any events to handle. And those that are running in the background are doing it because they're doing real work (like an SFTP client transferring files).


There's a difference, suspended Metro apps are not scheduled at all. The processor can effectively operate in low power states more frequently.


I've inadvertently programmed such tasks myself on more than one occasion, but these were quickly discovered, and in principal one could apply the same quotas against both metro and win32 apps such that the performance degradation of endless loops would be the same in either case.


win32 apps aren't designed for and don't expect such things, Metro apps are. Metro apps are designed to save state, Win32 apps are not.


Hmm, polling and blocking are totally different approaches. Polling is extremely bad, but I honestly haven't seen too much of that since the days of DOS. Polling has been replaced with various kinds of blocking mechanisms (event passing, asynchronous callbacks, IO threads, ...). In all cases though when a thread is blocked on input it is asleep and not consuming any CPU. The OS chooses when to wake it up to handle new IO events.


My point is that while Win32 applications may or may not use best practices. Metro apps must use best practices.


Then I'll need you to explain how the mechanics are different from a win32 event loop, other than being a different API, since the win32s can also be described as "don't call us, we'll call you".


Newer hardware supports ultra low device states in which you can be suspended, and only be awoken when new data is on the wire. As noted above, the app isn't even scheduled until new data on the transport channel triggers it. The data is then pushed to you.


I am skeptical, I'd love a citation for that.


Its simple, suspended apps are not scheduled, and during low memory situations their memory is reclaimed.
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/04/17/reclaiming-memory-fro...

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: "19th Century Dentist"
by l3v1 on Tue 22nd May 2012 11:32 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: "19th Century Dentist""
l3v1 Member since:
2005-07-06

CPU utilization is just one facet, there's stuff like utilizing the network which can prevent the PC from entering low power states for the network card which becomes a concern. Same thing with audio playback.

I think Metro, with OS managed background tasks (which have strict resource caps and policy imposed) are a great middle ground between battery efficiency and multitasking.


While I agree with your view, if I accept that the target demographic contains only regular content-consuming users, most of the time since Win8 appeared on the scene backers simply seem to ignore that a large number of Windows users are such developers (I mean devs writing complex software and algorithms, not webapp coders) for whom such a task management policy is neither comfortable nor useful. While currently this is not such a big problem, it could become a huge issue if the "classical" desktop eventually gets dropped in favor of walled-garden Metro-only apps.

Edited 2012-05-22 11:35 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: "19th Century Dentist"
by Nelson on Tue 22nd May 2012 15:10 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: "19th Century Dentist""
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

I think by the time that bridge comes, we'll have more exotic thoughtfully designed background tasks to help ease the pain. Undoubtedly though, some redesign will have to happen, and often its for the better.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: "19th Century Dentist"
by BluenoseJake on Wed 23rd May 2012 23:05 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: "19th Century Dentist""
BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

Even commercial developers were shafted when microsoft broke thousands of drivers. And customers were shafted when their hardware was no longer usable


I call BS, driver developers had over 3 years to get ready for Vista, and they dropped the ball. It had nothing to do with DRM, it had everything to do with the developers. MS changed the driver model, boo hoo, they do that once in a while. They did to the graphics card manufacturers with XP, they did it to the rest with Vista.

Please, get over this fictitious DRM issue. The hardware developers just basically refused to ship drivers.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: "19th Century Dentist"
by Alfman on Thu 24th May 2012 05:41 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: "19th Century Dentist""
Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

BluenoseJake,


"I call BS..."
"Please, get over this fictitious DRM issue. The hardware developers just basically refused to ship drivers."


I was one of many windows kernel devs disgruntled over the vista changes. Most drivers for windows XP actually did work *without any modification* when Vista crypto verification and DRM restrictions were circumvented, but these tools were subsequently revoked by MS. Here are a few links + excerpts that might change your mind with regards to the Vista DRM issues, bare in mind that they are from MS sources.

Thanks in advance for apologizing about the BS statement :-)


http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/hardware/gg463417

"The Microsoft® Windows Vista™ operating system introduces a new type of process known as a protected process to enhance support for Digital Rights Management functionality in Windows Vista."



http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/hardware/gg487431

"Drivers must have the correct content-protection signing attribute to handle some premium content. Microsoft Windows XP audio drivers work in Windows Vista, but cannot handle certain types of premium content if they do not have the correct content-protection signing attribute. If the content requires this attribute, the new protected user-mode audio (PUMA) engine enforces the requirement."



http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/forums/en-us/mediafoundationdevelo.....

"In order for you to receive the Protected Media Path compliance and robustness rules, you will need to send an email request to wmla@microsoft.com. WMLA will provide you with the licensing requirements and steps you will need to take."

"What you are describing is certainly possible in Media Foundation using Protected Media Path (PMP), however MF does not ship with such a network sink. A DTCP enabled network sink would need to be written and it would need to be signed by Microsoft in order for it to be loaded and used by MF."


http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc748650.aspx#_Protected.....
/
"PUMA and PVP define interfaces and support specific to audio and video players, device drivers, and hardware, but PMP also relies on a general kernel mechanism introduced in Windows Vista called a protected process. Protected processes are based on the standard Windows process construct that encapsulates a running executable image, its DLLs, security context (the account under which the process is running and its security privileges), and the threads that execute code within the process, but prevent certain types of access."

"Further, to prevent compromise from within, all executable code loaded into a protected process, including its executable image and DLLs, must be either signed by Microsoft (WHQL) with a Protected Environment (PE) flag, or if it's an audio codec, signed by the developer with a DRM-signing certificate obtained from Microsoft. Because kernel-mode code can gain full access to any process, including protected processes, and 32-bit Windows allows unsigned kernel-mode code to load, the kernel provides an API for protected processes to query the 'cleanliness' of the kernel-mode environment and use the result to unlock premium content only if no unsigned code is loaded."


As a vista developer, you can get your driver signed by microsoft's chain of trust, but unless you pay/qualify for PMP certification, then your driver will taint the Vista kernel, imposing additional DRM restrictions on end user systems. When the kernel is tainted, the entire system mysteriously enters a reduced functionality state where hidef video & audio quality can be capped and ports can be disabled; the user is left wondering why things are broken. For example, this next guy came to the conclusion netflix was rejecting his new hidef monitor for hidef 420P streaming, but I actually suspect the actual cause may have been a non-PMP driver tainting the Vista kernel and consequently telling netflix not to render premium content. Even though he never uncovered this, his further comments seem to fit with this assessment.

http://davisfreeberg.com/2008/01/03/bad-copp-no-netflix/


You can blame manufacturers for not revisiting older hardware/software and spending resources to update/certify their older drivers. But MS deserves to share the blame for preventing unsigned/self signed drivers from running that were otherwise completely compatible at an API level. Also MS deserves all the blame for all DRM related driver problems.

Edited 2012-05-24 05:58 UTC

Reply Score: 2

gifted horse's mouth
by stew on Tue 22nd May 2012 04:18 UTC
stew
Member since:
2005-07-06

Is everyone just looking deeply into the gifted horse's mouth? Seriously, it's a free application that you're complaining about, go ask for your money back if you're so disappointed.

For one, I'm happy that at least Windows will allow me to use the same framework to build tablet and desktop apps. On Android or iOS, I'll have to write an app separate from the desktop equivalents.

Reply Score: 2

RE: gifted horse's mouth
by kwan_e on Tue 22nd May 2012 04:31 UTC in reply to "gifted horse's mouth"
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

Is everyone just looking deeply into the gifted horse's mouth?


Gifted horse? What, can it do trigonometry and then stomp its hooves to give you the answer?

Seriously, ALWAYS look a gift horse in the mouth. If people are willing give away a horse for free, unless they are a close friend, there is almost always some kind of hidden surprise waiting down the line.

Reply Score: 4

RE: gifted horse's mouth
by MollyC on Tue 22nd May 2012 05:44 UTC in reply to "gifted horse's mouth"
MollyC Member since:
2006-07-04

I think you miss Thom's point. He's pissed that VS Express 11 only supports Metro apps because it means that MS is emphasizing Metro over Desktop apps. Thom doesn't like that direction.

I think he overplays it because the non-free VS editions support desktop apps, and the free VS Express 2010 supports desktop apps and will continue to be supported and made available for downloading, along with the Metro-only 11 edition. It's not like support for building desktop apps is being terminated.

Edited 2012-05-22 05:46 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: gifted horse's mouth
by WereCatf on Tue 22nd May 2012 10:40 UTC in reply to "RE: gifted horse's mouth"
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

I think you miss Thom's point. He's pissed that VS Express 11 only supports Metro apps because it means that MS is emphasizing Metro over Desktop apps. Thom doesn't like that direction.

I think he overplays it because the non-free VS editions support desktop apps, and the free VS Express 2010 supports desktop apps and will continue to be supported and made available for downloading, along with the Metro-only 11 edition. It's not like support for building desktop apps is being terminated.


I have to agree here. The first thing that came to my mind when I read the article is that this is really reaching for the straws, trying to portray this as something bigger than it is.

Basically, Microsoft is doing what any sane business would do: by giving people a free IDE for developing Metro applications they ensure that there'll be atleast some people developing for it, while at the same time they realize that not everyone is content with developing for Metro and thus they can generate some income from these developers. In other words it's just god damn basic business operation.

Reply Score: 2

Article is incorrect
by geleto on Tue 22nd May 2012 07:20 UTC
geleto
Member since:
2005-07-06

While VS2011 Express will not come with the Windows Platform SDK by default I really doubt that MS will actively prevent you from linking your application to it. And this is not the first time this happens - the Visual Studio versions before 2008 came without the SDK - and you had to install it separately in order to develop Win32 apps. And of course you can use other APIs - like wxWidgets ot Qt.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Article is incorrect
by fithisux on Tue 22nd May 2012 09:53 UTC in reply to "Article is incorrect"
fithisux Member since:
2006-01-22

And of course you can use other APIs - like wxWidgets ot Qt.


which are better, more developer friendly and open source.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Article is incorrect
by MacMan on Fri 25th May 2012 00:38 UTC in reply to "RE: Article is incorrect"
MacMan Member since:
2006-11-19

like wxWidgets ot Qt

which are better, more developer friendly and open source.


wxWidgets or Qt (shudder) better than WinRT / WinForms !?!?

I SERIOUSLY HOPE that was meant as sarcasm.

wxWidgets ???, seriously 1990 called, they want their bad MFC clone back to work with the horidly broken MS C++ 1.0

Reply Score: 2

Message is clear...
by yossarianuk on Tue 22nd May 2012 10:35 UTC
yossarianuk
Member since:
2009-04-01

he message is very clear - migrate to Linux ASAP.

If you want to be treated like a grown up and actually control your computer with an actual desktop stay as far away as possible from windows8.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Message is clear...
by Wafflez on Tue 22nd May 2012 22:03 UTC in reply to "Message is clear..."
Wafflez Member since:
2011-06-26

Yeah you're in so much control with GNOME. Ofcourse, for that control you need to spend months of analyzing and rewriting source code. Personally, you're first person I've met to do that, kudos!

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Message is clear...
by cfgr on Thu 24th May 2012 13:18 UTC in reply to "RE: Message is clear..."
cfgr Member since:
2009-07-18

The control is choice. Don't like Gnome? Switch to KDE. Don't like KDE? Switch to XFCE. Don't like XFCE, switch to LXDE. Don't like...

People have complained about Linux having too much choice. Now you see the effect of having no choice at all. At least the former is pushed forward by competition while with the latter all you can do is praying that you can still use it the way you want in the next version.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Message is clear...
by MollyC on Sat 26th May 2012 21:18 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Message is clear..."
MollyC Member since:
2006-07-04

Huh? What does your comment or this entire subthread have to do with the subject at hand?

There are free Windows dev tools besides Visual Studio, so the "choice" is there for Windows devs. So what is your point?

Reply Score: 2

Desktop apps
by pbassjunk on Tue 22nd May 2012 16:21 UTC
pbassjunk
Member since:
2009-09-20

For everyone saying Express 2010 can still create desktop apps, sure, but it doesn't run on Windows 8.

Express 2011 will only create Metro apps.

Metro apps are only available/installable through the MS app store.

Distributing Metro apps through the store require a paid developer account.

This is all extremely lame. I'm getting increasingly frustrated with the direction personal computing is headed.

Reply Score: 1

Comment by ilovebeer
by ilovebeer on Tue 22nd May 2012 18:34 UTC
ilovebeer
Member since:
2011-08-08

So Microsoft is trying to kill the desktop huh? Somebody should remind them that's where a large slice of their profit comes from. As a matter of fact, it's their 2nd biggest and right on the coat tails of their first, the business division.

I understand certain people get a stiffy whenever they think they've uncovered some secret Microsoft plot to destroy the computer industry and bring the sky crashing down.... If nothing else, at least those theories are sometimes mildly amusing.

Reply Score: 2

My two cents ..
by Aeko on Tue 22nd May 2012 21:32 UTC
Aeko
Member since:
2007-10-20

These are my own conclusions after trying Win8 with legacy applications:

· In Windows8 32 bits still work some applications (as RM-Cobol runtime we use at work).

· Winform application based on 3.5 Net framework works, althout it asks you to install 3.5 automatically. After that, all runs fine.

· What have happened to WPF that MS pushed us about 4 years ago ?

· There are 3 big visible buttons on top screen of Win8 and this is the key: One for the desktop, better to think a backdoor to be deprecated some day. Other for the remote desktop: one way to go -> more windows servers. And one button for IE: the other exit to complex applications.

So in my own thinking the future of potent desktop computers it what is going to be drastically reduced. MS is pushing the consumer market to thin clients and "cloud computing" (terrible term). This is not new, but sometimes we forget about it.

Reply Score: 1

nicolasgoddone
Member since:
2009-04-20

I thought MS was slowly killing themselves in one way or the another, well, it seems that they are bored and stepped up the game, they are using a hell of a digger!

Reply Score: 1

Wow...stop whining.
by blahbl4hblah on Tue 22nd May 2012 23:54 UTC
blahbl4hblah
Member since:
2011-05-29

The free tools the give away aren't to your liking? Boohoo.

They still give away phone tools. And Xbox tools. And you can use any number of compilers to target the desktop. There's also the platform SDK...If I'm not mistaken it comes with compilers.

There's the .Net SDK...it comes with everything you need to start building desktop applications.

You could use any of those options or you could cry about it. And before someone chimes in with..."this is an os discussion site, stop telling me not to complain"...There are plenty of options...you are either too biased or lazy to do an article discussing the actual technology involved.

yeah its just bad old Microsoft again...man I wish the Amiga had won the PC wars!

Edited 2012-05-22 23:56 UTC

Reply Score: 1

New baby
by contextfree on Wed 23rd May 2012 01:03 UTC
contextfree
Member since:
2009-06-01

While I agree that this is stupid, I still don't think it's a sign that the desktop will die in the future. It's just a sign that Microsoft (and really the industry in general, but especially Microsoft) is terrible at promoting the new shiny without (temporarily) taking all the oxygen away from its existing investments. We've seen this before when (including some non-Microsoft stuff that Microsoft and the industry were promoting)

* COM was going to kill Win32
* IE/HTML was going to kill native development
* Java was going to kill everything
* .NET was going to kill COM and Win32
* WPF/XAML was going to kill HTML
* HTML was going to kill XAML, .NET and Win32

yet all of those are (a) still around and (b) coexist without any of them killing each other. This will be the same, in a few years they will have another new baby, we will all get really sick of them trying to make us look at the new baby pictures 24/7, and Metro style apps will just be another boring "old" (but hopefully still alive and improving) thing just like the desktop is now.

Edited 2012-05-23 01:05 UTC

Reply Score: 1

Microsoft bet in the future?
by darkcoder on Wed 23rd May 2012 01:10 UTC
darkcoder
Member since:
2006-07-14

This compiler move along with the Windows 8/Metro direction is gonna end either in success or a massive (worst than Vista/ME) failure.

People will not upgrade cause the apps lock-downs.

Companies like always will not upgrade until platform is proven (1-3 years after), and giving the massive changes, probably never will.

Reply Score: 1

A question about .Net
by darkcoder on Wed 23rd May 2012 16:03 UTC
darkcoder
Member since:
2006-07-14

One question. With the new API introduced in Windows 8, which aims at both "Desktop" and Mobile platforms. Are they ditching .Net???

Off topic: the "Desktop" (in quotes) because for me it looks like a magnified (larger) phone screen, lol.

Reply Score: 1

RE: A question about .Net
by MollyC on Wed 23rd May 2012 19:42 UTC in reply to "A question about .Net"
MollyC Member since:
2006-07-04

One question. With the new API introduced in Windows 8, which aims at both "Desktop" and Mobile platforms. Are they ditching .Net???


No, they aren't ditching .NET. .NET can be used to create both Metro and Desktop aps.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/

Reply Score: 2

Comment by Jason Bourne
by Jason Bourne on Wed 23rd May 2012 17:54 UTC
Jason Bourne
Member since:
2007-06-02

It's a shame really. Metro is really fun. Just not for people who do more than check the weather and read Twitter.


Best ever written line since Windows 8 saw the dawn of day.

Reply Score: 3

Why would MS diss the desktop?
by benali72 on Wed 23rd May 2012 18:24 UTC
benali72
Member since:
2008-05-03

I don't understand. Why would Microsoft -- which makes half its revenues from the laptop/desktop -- diss its own cash cow?

Even if they're desperate to get into smartphones, tablets, etc, it still makes no sense to cut off their monopoly cash cow.

Can anyone explain this to me?

Reply Score: 1

RE: Why would MS diss the desktop?
by MollyC on Wed 23rd May 2012 19:43 UTC in reply to "Why would MS diss the desktop?"
MollyC Member since:
2006-07-04

I don't understand. Why would Microsoft -- which makes half its revenues from the laptop/desktop -- diss its own cash cow?

Even if they're desperate to get into smartphones, tablets, etc, it still makes no sense to cut off their monopoly cash cow.

Can anyone explain this to me?


Microsoft thinks that the destop paradigm is dying and there's no way to save it even if they wanted to, so they don't want to be stuck on that paradign while the world moves on.

Reply Score: 2

axilmar
Member since:
2006-03-20

Artificial scarcity doesn't work, dear Microsoft. People will be turned away from Visual Studio 11 Pro/Ent and use other solutions that are free (as in beer), or pirate the program.

And no, forcing Metro on us will not work.

Reply Score: 2

siride Member since:
2006-01-02

I think you misunderstand. It's only the express edition that is Metro-only. All the other editions support everything. If you want to do WinForms/WPF/etc., just use VS Express 2010. It's really that simple.

Reply Score: 2

Message is clear
by Jason Bourne on Fri 25th May 2012 15:35 UTC
Jason Bourne
Member since:
2007-06-02

Message is clear: People develop more in Java. They will definitely develop more and more in Java.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Message is clear
by siride on Fri 25th May 2012 16:43 UTC in reply to "Message is clear"
siride Member since:
2006-01-02

lol

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Message is clear
by zima on Mon 28th May 2012 23:28 UTC in reply to "RE: Message is clear"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Well in a way we most likely will, via Android...

Reply Score: 2