Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sun 3rd Jun 2012 22:04 UTC
Windows So, I've been using the Windows 8 Release Preview since it came out, almost exclusively (except for work, since I'm obviously not going to rely on unfinished and untested software for that). I already knew I could get into Metro on my 11.6" ZenBook, but on my 24" desktop, things aren't looking as rosy. Here's an illustrated guide of the most pressing issues I run into, and five suggestions to address them. Instead of just complaining, let's get constructive.
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Comment by gmlongo
by gmlongo on Sun 3rd Jun 2012 22:19 UTC
gmlongo
Member since:
2005-07-07

LOL. That wasted space in the first 2 pics is not the fault of metro...but of the OSnews website itself not being coded to take advantage of the full width.

Reply Score: 7

RE: Comment by gmlongo
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 3rd Jun 2012 22:22 UTC in reply to "Comment by gmlongo"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Yes, because reading 1920pix width is not at all entirely uncomfortable.

Edited 2012-06-03 22:22 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by gmlongo
by gmlongo on Sun 3rd Jun 2012 22:25 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by gmlongo"
gmlongo Member since:
2005-07-07

You pointed out the wasted space in the white areas that are only white because OSNews was coded to leave them white. That wasted space, has nothing to do with Metro.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Comment by gmlongo
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 3rd Jun 2012 22:27 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by gmlongo"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Of course it's Metro's fault. Virtually no website uses that much width because it makes no sense to do so - a simple limitation of the human brain in that reading lines that are too long causes us to lose focus, making reading that much harder. This is basic psychology.

That's why sites tend to not flow beyond a certain width.

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: Comment by gmlongo
by gmlongo on Sun 3rd Jun 2012 22:36 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by gmlongo"
gmlongo Member since:
2005-07-07

That is only because you have a browser in the left pane. That could be any application, many of which make excellent use of the full width.

Yes, I agree, that 80/20 is limiting and additional customizable splits would be beneficial, but that does not change the fact that your graphics with the "wasted space" comments are incorrectly attributing that to Metro. Because, even with other splits, many of them would still have "wasted space" because the website was explicitly coded as such.

In any case, their usage data obviously indicates that most people focus on their main task to the exclusion of other windows. And that aligns with the real world usage patterns I have seen as well.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment by gmlongo
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 3rd Jun 2012 22:39 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by gmlongo"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Because, even with other splits, many of them would still have "wasted space" because the website was explicitly coded as such.


This is decidedly untrue. Most websites would lose ALL their whitespace when presented in, say, a 50/50 split.

It's a moot point you're making, though - it's still Metro's fault for not being designed for the real web, but instead, for some non-existing fairytale web.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment by gmlongo
by gmlongo on Sun 3rd Jun 2012 22:45 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by gmlongo"
gmlongo Member since:
2005-07-07

I said "many of them" would still have wasted whitespace. 70/30 would certainly, and even 60/40 would have some. So my point stands.

Secondly, Metro wasn't designed with the sole purpose of having a browser, and only a browser, in the left pane. And your comments about having fixed width websites being due to readability is not exactly true; there are many apps whose sole purpose is for presenting readable information that can and do take advantage of that width.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Comment by gmlongo
by zima on Sun 3rd Jun 2012 22:49 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by gmlongo"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Most websites would lose ALL their whitespace when presented in, say, a 50/50 split.

It's a moot point you're making, though - it's still Metro's fault for not being designed for the real web, but instead, for some non-existing fairytale web.

But while http://www.osnews.com/img/26032/Screenshot%20(1).png might in itself seem wasteful, it also makes things more readable, as you say - if you just want to display one webpage (what people generally seem to do, no 50/50 splits or such), there's no other sensible way to do it... it would be like that in any UI.
(the screenshots that follow, where you want to do something additional, are a separate issue)

OSNews has 2 columns - so yeah, like most web pages it doesn't feel right when stretched to entirety of large monitor.
Large-format paper publications with width and text size proportions of that screenshot would probably have ~4 columns, and for good reason ...fix OSNews, to fill that space in such scenario ;P (yes, easier said than done - an unfortunate combination of widescreens becoming the standard plus the "legacy" of HTML & how we always did pages, I guess; any automatic determination of column numbers based on text and display size would also break a bit the concept of scrolling...)


The crazy thing is - 10% of all Windows users is still close to 100 million people.

Last I heard, it was something like ~1.2 billion PCs and ~2 billion users - so more like close to 200 million people, even.


PS. Why don't I have that "top rated comments" field? ;)

Edited 2012-06-03 22:58 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE[7]: Comment by gmlongo
by gmlongo on Sun 3rd Jun 2012 22:54 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by gmlongo"
gmlongo Member since:
2005-07-07

Good post Zima. That was essentially the point I was trying to make, not as eloquently as you ;) .

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Comment by gmlongo
by David on Tue 5th Jun 2012 20:52 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by gmlongo"
David Member since:
1997-10-01

PS. Why don't I have that "top rated comments" field? ;)


Thom's using an "OSNews members" login, with no ads and some extra goodies. We haven't been promoting it very heavily lately, but with a redesign we have in the works we'll be making some changes.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Comment by gmlongo
by computrius on Mon 4th Jun 2012 13:14 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by gmlongo"
computrius Member since:
2006-03-26

Open osnews in windows 7 and maximize the browser on the same resolution monitor. Do you not get the same thing? I hate metro with a passion but this is not a metro issue. As long as the browser can resize to take the full width it has always been up to the site designer to take advantage of that width.


It just seems weird to try to make the "IT SHOULD JUST KNOW!" Argument and then try to apply it only to metro.

Edited 2012-06-04 13:16 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Comment by gmlongo
by HappyGod on Tue 5th Jun 2012 00:05 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by gmlongo"
HappyGod Member since:
2005-10-19

You've completely missed the point that Thom was making.

Of course it would look the same in Win7 if you maximised the browser, but the key word in that last sentence is if.

That is to say you have a choice about whether or not you maximise. You have no choice in Metro, because it is the first version of Windows not to include ... Windows.

Everything is always maximised, all the time. Not MS's greatest idea.

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: Comment by gmlongo
by Yanni Depp on Sun 3rd Jun 2012 22:40 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by gmlongo"
Yanni Depp Member since:
2010-02-17

Thom's right here. I have a tri-monitor setup: a 27" iMac with two 20" monitors attached. You wouldn't want a site to fill screens that size: they become difficult to read. For maximum readability, lines of text should have a certain length and have certain spacing. Text running all the way across a 27" monitor wouldn't work.*

As a result, I never have windows maximised. I tile them so I can see multiple things at once. This approach is useful for developers, designers and content creators. We're going to have problems with Metro's window management. Well, most will: I won't since I use OS X. Having two sites in an 80/20 split makes little sense for tiling web pages. Having two apps (web browser and text editor, or two web browsers) in a 50/50 split makes a lot of sense.

* of course, you can have multiple columns or blocks taking up the full 1920x1080 (or higher), dynamically moved and positioned using responsive layouts, but that brings its own set of challenges.

Edited 2012-06-03 22:44 UTC

Reply Score: 7

RE[5]: Comment by gmlongo
by gmlongo on Sun 3rd Jun 2012 22:52 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by gmlongo"
gmlongo Member since:
2005-07-07

Websites are not fixed width solely because wide screens detract from readability, but because they need to reach as wide an audience as possible; therefore, they need to be readable on as many screens and resolutions as possible.

In any case, this has nothing to do with Metro...which was my original point. Put almost any other app (besides a browser) in the left pane, and the content will be used to its fullest.

And yes, as a software engineer, I understand the need for multiple windows and customization options. But in Windows 8, the desktop still exists, so....

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Comment by gmlongo
by redshift on Sun 3rd Jun 2012 23:07 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by gmlongo"
redshift Member since:
2006-05-06

But in Windows 8, the desktop still exists, so....


Yes, but it is depreciated. Unnecessary hoops to use it today and gone tomorrow if MS has it's way..

Edited 2012-06-03 23:08 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Comment by gmlongo
by Aankhen on Mon 4th Jun 2012 08:57 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by gmlongo"
Aankhen Member since:
2010-01-13

Websites are not fixed width solely because wide screens detract from readability, but because they need to reach as wide an audience as possible; therefore, they need to be readable on as many screens and resolutions as possible.

Fixed‐width layouts are part of the problem, not the solution. Reading a page that uses a single 800px column on a 22″ screen is a pain: I don’t want to squint and I don’t want to put my face right against the monitor, so I bump up the text size… and get to read three words in a line. Reading a page with a fixed width of 1,280px on a 4.3″ screen with a horizontal resolution of 960px is equally annoying, for obvious reasons.

There is no one size fits all solution. Different devices need different layouts, and you can achieve a lot of that on the web using media queries (see http://css-tricks.com/css-media-queries/ for more on that subject) in combination with relative measures and minimum/maximum widths (for example, size your content using ems and set a max-width of 43em on paragraphs).

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Comment by gmlongo
by ndrw on Tue 5th Jun 2012 16:33 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by gmlongo"
ndrw Member since:
2009-06-30

Actually, it is. One of the basic typesetting rules says not to exceed (on average) 12 words per line or several of inches of column width at normal reading distance.

So, no, stretching the column width to the screen size is not a solution. An automatic multi-column layout is, but html/css does not support it out of the box.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment by gmlongo
by Morgan on Sun 3rd Jun 2012 22:56 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by gmlongo"
Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

Having two sites in an 80/20 split makes little sense for tiling web pages. Having two apps (web browser and text editor, or two web browsers) in a 50/50 split makes a lot of sense.


I agree wholeheartedly, and I feel that Aero Snap was one of the best additions to Windows since the shift to NTFS. A simple flick to the left with one window and flick to the right with another gives you a perfect 50/50 split. For those of us with 16:9 monitors, it means two complete web pages can be seen side by side. For web developers doing a compatibility check visually between browser versions, this is ideal. I've used it myself at the part time job with Notepad++ full of HTML or CSS on the left, and the web browser on the right. Make a change on the left, hit Ctrl+S, hit F5 on the right and there's no need for cumbersome app switching. It's a workflow-centric wet dream.

I'm also happy to see that some *nix desktop environments have begun to copy Aero Snap and other similar features. Why Microsoft wanted to take a huge leap backwards with fullscreen-only browsing in Metro is beyond comprehension.

Reply Score: 5

RE[6]: Comment by gmlongo
by redshift on Sun 3rd Jun 2012 23:03 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by gmlongo"
redshift Member since:
2006-05-06


I'm also happy to see that some *nix desktop environments have begun to copy Aero Snap and other similar features. Why Microsoft wanted to take a huge leap backwards with fullscreen-only browsing in Metro is beyond comprehension.



I know.... IE has had some kind of full screen kiosk mode since at least win98. I found it to be useless and never used it.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment by gmlongo
by xeoron on Mon 4th Jun 2012 01:10 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by gmlongo"
xeoron Member since:
2007-03-25

Aero Snap still works on the desktop side. They just make multi-pane viewing side-by-side impossible for users in Metro, but maybe some one will make a Metro app that lets you see 1+x panes at a time.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Comment by gmlongo
by Morgan on Mon 4th Jun 2012 01:17 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by gmlongo"
Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

Well, that was my point, that Snap is not applicable to the Metro interface. Basically, one would have to constantly switch between fullscreen Metro and the legacy desktop just to get certain tasks done, which degrades the workflow.

I wish Microsoft would either give us a fixed Metro that allows for tiling apps, or give us a Metro-free "legacy-only" desktop option. Sadly they have already affirmed that neither will happen.

I really, truly hope that Microsoft will only release Windows 8 for touchscreen devices (whether x86/64 or ARM based) and keep shipping Windows 7 on traditional desktops and laptops for a few years. That seems like the only sensible course of action to me. I'm afraid that ship has sailed though.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Comment by gmlongo
by MacTO on Mon 4th Jun 2012 01:25 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by gmlongo"
MacTO Member since:
2006-09-21

of course, you can have multiple columns or blocks taking up the full 1920x1080 (or higher), dynamically moved and positioned using responsive layouts, but that brings its own set of challenges.


Even multiple columns isn't a good solution. It works in print because it is paginated and you can easily view the whole column. (Even newspapers tend to limit the length of columns.) Multiple columns on a web page would force the reader to scroll down then up then down again.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment by gmlongo
by zima on Mon 4th Jun 2012 02:40 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by gmlongo"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Unless we'd replace scrolling with flipping...

We already have "readability" functions or extensions in browsers; and one of the ideas behind HTML was that the client has some control over presentation - it might as well make columns.

That could even fit new UI models (tablets, and so on ...including Metro)

Edited 2012-06-04 02:41 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Comment by gmlongo
by moondevil on Mon 4th Jun 2012 06:53 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by gmlongo"
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

Sorry Tom, but this is the same issue on my 21' Monitor running Windows 7/Linux.

Should we blame them as well for the amount of white space?

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment by gmlongo
by Thom_Holwerda on Mon 4th Jun 2012 07:16 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by gmlongo"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

You are forced to fullscreen in Windows 7?

Reply Score: 4

RE[6]: Comment by gmlongo
by hoak on Mon 4th Jun 2012 07:20 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by gmlongo"
hoak Member since:
2007-12-17

You can use a 'legacy' Desktop environment and run windowed applications there, but you need to switch to Metro and/or use parts of the Metro interface to start new applications, configure OS settings and many other things that are transparent even on clumsy Windows 7 -- when you do this on Windows 8 your 'Desktop' goes away and you're in a single task Metro environment. And yes in Metro you can only use one application, or OS component at at time and it's full-screen...

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Comment by gmlongo
by Nelson on Mon 4th Jun 2012 07:54 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by gmlongo"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

You're in Metro for the two seconds it takes you to type the name of the application you want, and hit enter.

The horror.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment by gmlongo
by MollyC on Mon 4th Jun 2012 22:03 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by gmlongo"
MollyC Member since:
2006-07-04

You are forced to fullscreen in Windows 7?


No, but lots of people prefer to do so. And by "lots", I mean, "most" (by far).

But I don't necessarily agree with others here that website designers should go out of their way to re-flow the content of their site to fill up the entire window, whatever size the window may be at a given moment. Users are generally just fine seeing large white space to the left and right of the content.

That said, I'd like to have a 50/50 snap option in Metro (to go along wiht the current big/small option). I think the reason for providing only the big/small snap option is that Metro apps require more forethought in control layout, and it's easier for developers not to have to worry about arbitrary window sizes or even a half-width window size. With the current behavior, developers can target full-screen, 3/4ths, and 1/4th (not sure about the exact fractions involved in "snap" scenario), with the first two options having the same control layout, and the final one being special-cased. A 50/50 snap option might not be able to handle the full-screen control layout (not as well as the 3/4ths snap option), so that might require yet another special case.

This isn't as much an issue in Windows 7, sicne desktop apps don't require as much planning in control layout (though lots of apps suffer for lack of such planning anyway).

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by gmlongo
by l3v1 on Mon 4th Jun 2012 06:48 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by gmlongo"
l3v1 Member since:
2005-07-06

You pointed out the wasted space in the white areas that are only white because OSNews was coded to leave them white. That wasted space, has nothing to do with Metro.


Sorry guys, but that sounds stupid. Who in their right mind reads a web page full screen on 1920x1200 (I'm also on this res for 90% of my day).

I easily understand the suggestions at the end of the article/post, but my suggestion would simply be to make Metro _entirely_ optional on a non-tablet, non-touch computer. Other usability issues I could mostly solve by using Start8, which is still not a real solution, but at least makes using Win8 a bit more bearable.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Comment by gmlongo
by zima on Mon 4th Jun 2012 07:58 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by gmlongo"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

What is the difference if it's full screen or not, when you focus on a webpage? It's a "wasted" space either way (and actually, when the browser window width fits to such "narrow" content it might introduce unnecessary clutter outside of it - most of the time I prefer to have blank space there, instead of icons or another app that's in the background)

Edited 2012-06-04 07:59 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment by gmlongo
by Thom_Holwerda on Mon 4th Jun 2012 08:16 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by gmlongo"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

What is the difference if it's full screen or not, when you focus on a webpage? It's a "wasted" space either way


It's not. I can put my icons there, so I can quickly open them. I can put an IM window there, IRC, mail, a copy dialog, Torrent, whatever I want. This way, I can quickly switch between tasks without having to jump through hoops. It makes it much easier to see what I'm doing, and keep track of everything that's running. And I haven't even mentioned yet that without the ability to display multiple windows side-by-side, I can't actually do my job and make money. THAT is how backwards Metro currently really is.

That space certainly isn't wasted.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment by gmlongo
by lucas_maximus on Mon 4th Jun 2012 08:29 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by gmlongo"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

The ones you gave in 90% of circumstances ... indicate via the task bar when they are done (such as copying files actually show the status in the task bar item), IM flashes, IRC chimes you and any torrent application goes and shows a system tray message.

If your use case actually consisted of tiling to sources of information for comparison that is a valid example ...

Edited 2012-06-04 08:29 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: Comment by gmlongo
by Thom_Holwerda on Mon 4th Jun 2012 08:31 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by gmlongo"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

The ones you gave in 90% of circumstances ... indicate via the task bar when they are done (such as copying files actually show the status in the task bar item), IM flashes, IRC chimes you and any torrent application goes and shows a system tray message.


I like to know what's going on. When something will be done - not just when it's done, but how long it's going to take.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment by gmlongo
by zima on Mon 4th Jun 2012 09:06 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by gmlongo"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

What is the difference if it's full screen or not, when you focus on a webpage? It's a "wasted" space either way (and actually, when the browser window width fits to such "narrow" content it might introduce unnecessary clutter outside of it - most of the time I prefer to have blank space there, instead of icons or another app that's in the background)

^that is what I wrote (now adding some slight emphasis here and there), and for a reason; don't answer to only part like that. Yes, I can have some icons or background apps there, too, at times.

Overall, there's nothing unusual about focusing on a "core" task at hand, letting the machine follow the rest most of the time - that is the whole idea behind computers: to act as a prosthesis of sorts for our minds, freeing them for something else (OTOH, not doing that might be conducive to falling into information overload)

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment by gmlongo
by l3v1 on Mon 4th Jun 2012 09:42 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by gmlongo"
l3v1 Member since:
2005-07-06

That space certainly isn't wasted.


Exactly, I agree. I prefer seeing other windows (even if just a relevant part of them) than not, or ven notification balloons and such if they exist. E.g. doing a remote linux upgrade and seeing the bottom part of the console window, an IM window on the side, an app window or its console output of a running program that needs a lot of time to run and meanwhile has visual or text output, and so on and so forth.

Obviously I'm not in the content-consuming-only target demographic, and being in a browser window during work is not my main activity. Thinking about it, I'd say the only app types that I use full screen are developer IDEs, everything else I use in windowed mode.

Edited 2012-06-04 09:43 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: Comment by gmlongo
by WereCatf on Mon 4th Jun 2012 10:03 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by gmlongo"
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

Sorry guys, but that sounds stupid. Who in their right mind reads a web page full screen on 1920x1200 (I'm also on this res for 90% of my day).


I guess I'm the odd one out here, seeing as I haven't so far noticed a single comment about someone doing this, but.. well, I *do* have Firefox maximized at all times.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by gmlongo
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Mon 4th Jun 2012 00:29 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by gmlongo"
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

Well, OS news still has a scroll bar, there is more information to be displayed, yet it doesn't use the space it does have to display it. I understand that most websites suck at using available screen space, but they should.

For OS News, there is space for two columns of news articles, or even going metro-esque by displaying the full text of an article, along with the story index. There are ways to solve it without resorting to simply stretching the text all the way to 1920px.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by gmlongo
by bassbeast on Mon 4th Jun 2012 10:40 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by gmlongo"
bassbeast Member since:
2007-11-11

The easiest way to fix it is.....just don't use Windows 8!

Seriously why in the world are you going to all the trouble to run a cell phone OS on the desktop? its obvious that all MSFT cares about with Win 8 is wimpy little screens or it wouldn't be such a PITB to get it usable on large displays.

So do yourself a favor friend, join me and most of the business world (as well as all my customers) and just say NO! to Win 8. heck with Win 7 supported until 2020 you can skip win 8 AND Win 9 if MSFT doesn't come to their senses, But I have a feeling this is gonna be an MS Bob level of fail so I doubt we'll have long to wait until Win 9 goes back to a sensible desktop.

Many people laughed when I said "Vista is gonna flop" and that came true and I'm betting I'm right again, its just not an improvement over Win 7 unless you are running it on a smartphone and even there I don't think it has a prayer against Android and iOS.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Comment by gmlongo
by WereCatf on Mon 4th Jun 2012 10:52 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by gmlongo"
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

The easiest way to fix it is.....just don't use Windows 8!


That's not constructive in any way. You do not fix something just by ignoring it, just as you cannot e.g. fix murder by ignoring it.

Seriously why in the world are you going to all the trouble to run a cell phone OS on the desktop?


Quite a few of the commenters here on OSNews work in IT, and as such they'll inevitably run into situations where they must be able to get around in Win8 and/or help others do that. That's already a very good reason for trying to get acquainted with it already.

Another good reason would be e.g. studying it; what works, what doesn't, how it could be improved and/or what could be imitated elsewhere and what shouldn't.

Then again, if you don't like being constructive you probably don't understand the reasoning anyways.

unless you are running it on a smartphone and even there I don't think it has a prayer against Android and iOS.


You'll be surprised.

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: Comment by gmlongo
by zima on Mon 4th Jun 2012 12:34 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by gmlongo"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

That's not constructive in any way. You do not fix something just by ignoring it, just as you cannot e.g. fix murder by ignoring it.

I don't think everything works quite like murders ;) (but now I wonder whether what you did could become something à la Godwin's law ;p )

If people will insist on using the older version, if devs (also MS ones, with all their software) will be forced to target primarily that older one, MS should take notice... (wasn't that what also happened with Vista?)

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: Comment by gmlongo
by WereCatf on Mon 4th Jun 2012 15:00 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by gmlongo"
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

I don't think everything works quite like murders ;)


Thankfully not! I just said it to demonstrate a point, though perhaps using ever-stronger copyright laws as an example would've worked better: no matter how much you ignore them they won't go away, the only way of "fixing" the situation is to actively do something about it. That is a lot like Win8: some lucky can avoid it in their own, personal things, but on the whole it's coming whether you like it or not. The constructive approach is to, quite obviously, find the rough spots and try to find ways of smoothing them over.

If people will insist on using the older version, if devs (also MS ones, with all their software) will be forced to target primarily that older one, MS should take notice... (wasn't that what also happened with Vista?)


I just skimmed through today's news on Engadget, and guess what? I saw 8 whole new full lines of computers coming to market, all sporting Windows 8. I'm just saying that ignoring it won't even be possible.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Comment by gmlongo
by bassbeast on Tue 5th Jun 2012 04:05 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by gmlongo"
bassbeast Member since:
2007-11-11

Uhhh...murder? Seriously? You DO know that MSFT themselves is supporting Win 7 until 2020, yes? I don't see how you can equate not jumping on MSFT's "Ohh me too!" Apple loving bandwagon as taking someone's life.

Oh and believe me I know that, I keep Win 8 in a VM simply because as a small shop owner I'll have to deal with it too, although I have a feeling it'll be like Vista and most of my "dealing with it" will be nuking it for customers and putting 7 back on. I swear if they make us call for downgrade rights again I'm gonna charge an extra 20% or hand it to the customer and let THEM deal with it, because i'm soooo tired of hearing 30 minutes of sales pitches before they'll give me the stupid key!

Finally why do you think I'll be surprised? Did WinPhone suddenly get more than its last reported 5% of the market? did their appstore become more than a hollow shell of iOS and Google Markets?

The thing MSFT seems to be not capable of understanding is NOBODY uses MSFT windows because they just adore MSFT as a brand, they use it for third party apps period. So its already got one strike against it as it'll never ever run those millions of X86 programs already written in winRT, strike two is that it has no real selling point against iOS and Android, as Android is cheaper (can't beat free) and iOS not only has the money (more money made per app by a long shot) but they also have the hipness factor. Strike three is that Win 8 is simply unintuitive and undiscoverable without a LOT of trial and error.

In the end just answer me this TWO questions Werecat, does Windows 8 make you feel more productive or less than Win 7? does your workflow feel smoother now, or more clunky? Because I've allowed everyone from kids to little old ladies play with win 8 CP in my shop and i have yet to find anyone that says they feel more productive or that they are better able to get what they want done on Win 8. I don't know if it'll parse or not but the following video is pretty much the reaction I've seen from my own customers with regards to Win 8, although they tended to get frustrated more than this woman..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxmIsv88xO4&feature=related

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment by gmlongo
by nt_jerkface on Wed 6th Jun 2012 02:47 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by gmlongo"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

In the end just answer me this TWO questions Werecat, does Windows 8 make you feel more productive or less than Win 7? does your workflow feel smoother now, or more clunky? Because I've allowed everyone from kids to little old ladies play with win 8 CP in my shop


Hairyfeet (a longtime Slashdot poster who runs a computer shop) has said the same thing. The users just aren't liking it. There are plenty of youtube videos that show the same thing.

How much more evidence is needed?

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment by gmlongo
by bassbeast on Thu 7th Jun 2012 03:42 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by gmlongo"
bassbeast Member since:
2007-11-11

Uhhh...that's me..hi! My old Bassbeast handle was taken on /. so I was reading LOTR at the time and since i had that lovely feeling where every. single. UID. you choose gives you that stupid "Taken" over and over AND OVER I stuck that in as a goof and voila!

But that's the nice thing about running a little computer shop, I meet folks from all walks of life, grandmas and grandkids, nerds that are into model airplanes (had a great discussion with one the other day over the Pi) to fellow business owners and so far NONE have liked it, the closest i got to an "endorsement" was this nice old lady who said "Well that's a nice looking cell phone picture, is that Android? i heard that's quite nice...what do you mean Windows? Windows what? Why that's just stupid, why would I want a cell phone on my computer?"

Ya know, I HONESTLY thought the teens would like it, those like my oldest that live on smart phones? but he said the same thing the other teens did "I already HAVE a smart phone, and Windows 7 is easier to work". If MSFT is courting the young this is the wrong way to go about it, as kids have grown up with the start button desktop and know it like the back of their hands. My oldest didn't switch to Win 7 until last fall but it didn't take him 30 minutes to be up to speed,whereas with Win 8 after 20 minutes of random pecking he just got frustrated and walked away. its just not discoverable or intuitive.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Comment by gmlongo
by zima on Thu 7th Jun 2012 03:50 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by gmlongo"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Though now we have to wonder how much of the evidence on the web comes from you... ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by gmlongo
by zima on Mon 4th Jun 2012 11:03 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by gmlongo"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Many people laughed when I said "Vista is gonna flop" and that came true

I bet many operating systems would love to be such a flop like Vista... (it topped in web stats at quarter of online users, is still the 3rd most used OS) And generally, the apparently adored Win7 is essentially VistaSE.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by gmlongo
by aliquis on Fri 8th Jun 2012 06:02 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by gmlongo"
aliquis Member since:
2005-07-23

Not every text line have to be 1920 pixels wide.

Have you ever read a news paper?

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by gmlongo
by redshift on Sun 3rd Jun 2012 22:59 UTC in reply to "Comment by gmlongo"
redshift Member since:
2006-05-06

Even if OS news were coded to take up the full screen.... I don't want 24" of it on my desktop. I like my multiple windows just fine. I am never going to fit into this single minded single windowed world. It is like going back to crayons and that really fat pencil you had in kindergarten, after using design markers ballpoint pens.


According to your metrics Linux and MacOS will be picking up 10% of windows users. At least the ones that don't stick with win7 for eternity.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Comment by gmlongo
by gmlongo on Sun 3rd Jun 2012 23:03 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by gmlongo"
gmlongo Member since:
2005-07-07

You do know there is the classic desktop in Windows 8, right?

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Comment by gmlongo
by moondevil on Mon 4th Jun 2012 06:50 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by gmlongo"
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

According to your metrics Linux and MacOS will be picking up 10% of windows users. At least the ones that don't stick with win7 for eternity.


You mean like the ones that pick up Linux and Mac OS X instead of Vista, when they left XP? Right.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Comment by gmlongo
by Nelson on Mon 4th Jun 2012 06:56 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by gmlongo"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

A million times this. Windows Vista is regarded by most as the worst thing Microsoft could have ever done, and even that did nothing for the Linux desktop.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Comment by gmlongo
by tomcat on Mon 4th Jun 2012 18:34 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by gmlongo"
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

A million times this. Windows Vista is regarded by most as the worst thing Microsoft could have ever done, and even that did nothing for the Linux desktop.


I just know this is going to be the Year of the Linux Desktop. Yawn.

Edited 2012-06-04 18:34 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by gmlongo
by UltraZelda64 on Sun 3rd Jun 2012 23:11 UTC in reply to "Comment by gmlongo"
UltraZelda64 Member since:
2006-12-05

Ever wonder why newspapers are divided into so many narrow columns? Hell, even magazines for that matter? Think about it...

It's a royal pain in the ass to read extremely long rows of text. Our brains just aren't meant to do it. I never have this problem because I never have any windows maximized; they usually take up around half of my screen, mostly vertical space, not horizontal.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by gmlongo
by Alfman on Mon 4th Jun 2012 00:37 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by gmlongo"
Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

UZ64,

"Ever wonder why newspapers are divided into so many narrow columns? Hell, even magazines for that matter? Think about it..."

You beat me to it!

When redshift said "Even if OS news were coded to take up the full screen.... I don't want 24" of it on my desktop." I was thinking the exact same thing.

Widescreen pages of non-wrapping text are extremely difficult to follow because the eyes begin loosing track of individual lines. The newspaper layout may seem somewhat arbitrary but it turns out to be much easier to read that way.

In any case, what's with all these prohibitions against letting users have a choice in the matter? Thom is right, these restrictions are insane particularly on large screen desktops. The reality is widescreens are useful specifically to place side by side. If the OS imposes such arbitrary restrictions as metro does, then it defeats the point in having a widescreen monitor in the first place.

Anyone taking bets on whether microsoft is going to jump out of the curtains on win8's release yelling "Surprise! We were just kidding guys, the look on all your faces is priceless. We really had you all going didn't we?"

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Comment by gmlongo
by UltraZelda64 on Mon 4th Jun 2012 05:31 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by gmlongo"
UltraZelda64 Member since:
2006-12-05

Yep. Exactly. I just wish high-res 16:10 screens were easier to come by, but unfortunately they seem to be succumbing to inferior (for non-multimedia/video computer usage) "high definition" 16x9 displays (which, IMO, belong only in the living room to watch your TV and movies and play your home console video games on). But unfortunately, they're infesting every single device type being developed. All in the name of "multimedia" with the convenient buzzword "HD". ;)

Gotta love bullshit buzzwords like "HD" stealing our vertical resolution--which, in my opinion, is the most important of all for computer work. So what if tiny bars are shown on the top and bottom of the screen while playing HD videos? You barely even notice them, if you even notice them at all.

In the end--I'll take more vertical space and less horizontal space for my reading pleasure, thanks. It's much easier on the eye, and is actually possible to read. Just imaging a giant book that is not separated into columns... that would be so difficult to read it's not even funny.

Edited 2012-06-04 05:41 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Comment by gmlongo
by zima on Mon 4th Jun 2012 07:50 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by gmlongo"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

high-res 16:10 screens [...] succumbing to inferior [...] "high definition" 16x9 displays

Such really high res (more than 1080p, I presume) screens were always "succumbing" to "inferior" types - in the past to much more inferior types, actually.

The situation is much better than it used to be; be happy that the "HD" means widespread popularisation of quite high res screens, that you can have them very inexpensively, funded by economies of scale (which also makes large multimon setups much more accessible; plus if one monitor in such setup is rotated 90 degrees...).

And if you want to go higher than that - well, such screens were always hard to come by, and expensive. So pay up, don't expect people "subsidizing" those just yet - they're happy with HD, so that's what production is geared for.
Alternatively, wait a short decade or so... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UHDTV (but I bet some will still be complaining in a similar way)

Edited 2012-06-04 07:51 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Comment by gmlongo
by JPowers on Mon 4th Jun 2012 13:05 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by gmlongo"
JPowers Member since:
2007-11-10

I'm a developer and vertical space is very import.

My main screen is a ViewSonic VP2365WB in 1080x1920 mode. Any 80/20 split would need to be a top/bottom split or things would just look ugly and useless.

I also find this mode ideal for web browsing since I can see most of the page. It's also great for doing word processing work.

I've yet to see a review from someone running Metro on a widescreen monitor running in portrait mode.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Comment by gmlongo
by ndrw on Tue 5th Jun 2012 16:48 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by gmlongo"
ndrw Member since:
2009-06-30

Which is why iPad feels so usable. A screen of an "equivalent" 1366x768 laptop just doesn't cut it.

I often argue against Apple (in fact, I own 0 of their products) but I like that they can take step back and look how the technology fits a normal person before designing a device. Others seem follow the rule "more is better", which is not even true (sometimes "more"="still not enough" or "more"="pointless").

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by gmlongo
by lucas_maximus on Mon 4th Jun 2012 10:24 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by gmlongo"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Way to not understand Elastic/Responsive Design. You are supposed to put new content in the empty space and/or increase the text size to suit.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Comment by gmlongo
by Thom_Holwerda on Mon 4th Jun 2012 10:34 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by gmlongo"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Way to not understand Elastic/Responsive Design. You are supposed to put new content in the empty space and/or increase the text size to suit.


That's ridiculous. Optimal line length is only about ~12 words, based on the arch the human eye can optimally scan without straining other muscles at average eye-desktop display distance. Increasing the font size to maintain this optimal line length at 1920pix width would require 36pix font height - which is pure insanity.

Adding additional content is easier said than done. Sure, you can fill up the whitespace with pointless junk like stock images or enlarged quotes, but they add absolutely nothing to the reading experience. Multiple columns, as some suggested, is unworkable as well, since it would require weird up/down eye movements, and would generally looks like ass.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment by gmlongo
by WereCatf on Mon 4th Jun 2012 10:46 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by gmlongo"
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

Multiple columns, as some suggested, is unworkable as well, since it would require weird up/down eye movements, and would generally looks like ass.


I have to disagree with that. It's mostly a matter of how and what you place in the columns and how you place the columns themselves. Even here on OSNews you use two columns in multiple places to separate different kinds of content and/or to categorise content; it's just a matter of designing it properly.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment by gmlongo
by lucas_maximus on Mon 4th Jun 2012 10:57 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by gmlongo"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

I didn't say it was the be all an end all solution, did I?

I am just saying that it is a technique to scale websites to devices capabilities.

As for extra content, Google for example put in the JavaScript Preview in the "right hand whitespace". The page still works at half width.

Edited 2012-06-04 11:00 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment by gmlongo
by Thom_Holwerda on Mon 4th Jun 2012 11:03 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by gmlongo"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

As for extra content, Google for example put in the JavaScript Preview in the "right hand whitespace". The page still works at half width.


Which is just useless, performance-degrading fluff, further strengthening my point that adding extra content just because Microsoft's designers believe everybody must focus on a single task AND NOTHING ELSE is not a good way to go.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Comment by gmlongo
by lucas_maximus on Mon 4th Jun 2012 12:03 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by gmlongo"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

I would hardly call it fluff, but then again you tend to make blanket statement about subjects like there is a "right and a wrong" ... it is a visual aid, nothing more or less, you either think it has value or it doesn't, I happen to think that it does.

Performance degrading ... utter nonsense. You really don't know how these websites are built do you?

You do realise that must of this stuff is done Asynchronously so it doesn't block the browser?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=95256794


"People can't multitask very well, and when people say they can, they're deluding themselves," said neuroscientist Earl Miller. And, he said, "The brain is very good at deluding itself."

Miller, a Picower professor of neuroscience at MIT, says that for the most part, we simply can't focus on more than one thing at a time.


And when it comes to multi-tasking, I will take the word of a MIT professor over your opinion anyday.

Edited 2012-06-04 12:14 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Comment by gmlongo
by Dave_K on Tue 5th Jun 2012 01:43 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by gmlongo"
Dave_K Member since:
2005-11-16

Widescreen pages of non-wrapping text are extremely difficult to follow because the eyes begin loosing track of individual lines. The newspaper layout may seem somewhat arbitrary but it turns out to be much easier to read that way.


Agreed. I'm amazed that some people don't get this.

On my 27" monitor browser windows typically use about 60% of the screen width. For some sites, such as those displaying large pictures, I'll maximise the window, but more often I find myself reducing the width even further.

Even spanning 60% of the screen width I find that a big block of text can be uncomfortable to read. I'll shrink it down so that the text width isn't any greater than it'd be in a paperback book. To me that makes a significant difference to my speed and enjoyment when reading.

I do the same in ebook readers, text editors, PDF viewers, and anything else where I'll be reading more than a page or two of text. Even for the simple task of consuming written words I'd find Metro's full screen limitations annoying and uncomfortable.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Comment by gmlongo
by zima on Sun 10th Jun 2012 23:44 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by gmlongo"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

I'm amazed that some people don't get another thing...

Those who point out it's a "fault" of OSNews layout don't really propose "widescreen pages of non-wrapping text" as an alternative - but more, say, a multi-column (more than 2) layout, as is typical in "wide" print magazines.

Edited 2012-06-10 23:45 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by gmlongo
by nej_simon on Mon 4th Jun 2012 10:56 UTC in reply to "Comment by gmlongo"
nej_simon Member since:
2011-02-11

LOL. That wasted space in the first 2 pics is not the fault of metro...but of the OSnews website itself not being coded to take advantage of the full width.


Why would you want a website to use the full width of a large screen? That would be a badly designed website because it would be difficult to overlook and navigate.

Edited 2012-06-04 11:02 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by gmlongo
by joshv on Mon 4th Jun 2012 13:27 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by gmlongo"
joshv Member since:
2006-03-18

Please see http://bostonglobe.com

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by gmlongo
by Thom_Holwerda on Mon 4th Jun 2012 13:34 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by gmlongo"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29



...which looks virtually identical to OSNews at 1920pix.

http://www.osnews.com/img/26032/uh.png

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Comment by gmlongo
by vaette on Mon 4th Jun 2012 13:52 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by gmlongo"
vaette Member since:
2008-08-09

They too could do more, but in Chrome on Linux maximized 1920px OSnews has 474 pixels wasted on each side, whereas the Boston Globe has 336 pixels wasted on each side. Meaning that OSnews uses about 51% of the space allocated to it, but the Boston Globe uses 65%. Certainly a better effort.

I think more the point that joshv was making though is that Boston Globe looks great at all widths less than 1440, using CSS selectors.

I think there are many arguments to be made about the suitability of Metro, but it is certainly also a failure of OSnews that it doesn't make good use of screen estate in maximized browsers. Many people, myself included, don't multitask that much when browsing the web.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment by gmlongo
by Thom_Holwerda on Mon 4th Jun 2012 13:58 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by gmlongo"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

I think there are many arguments to be made about the suitability of Metro, but it is certainly also a failure of OSnews that it doesn't make good use of screen estate in maximized browsers.


The reason I'm interested in this is because I designed the next version of OSNews (don't have public previews yet, so don't ask) and have, indeed, played with the idea of what to do with the stuff on the sides. And, other than increasing font size (not an option), or adding in useless stuff (stock photo bullshit or enlarged quotes or whatever) do nothing to improve the reading experience.

This reading experience is the focus for me, and anything that doesn't improve this reading experience won't be implemented in OSNews Nina (codename of the next version). For 95% of sites out there - especially relatively light, text-focussed sites like OSNews - it's virtually impossible to make use of this horizontal space without adding fluff.

So yes, I experimented with it, but came to the conclusion that anything I could do to make use of all this horizontal space would only serve to harm the reading experience, instead of improving it. And, well, adding stuff without any reason?

Nope.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Comment by gmlongo
by vaette on Mon 4th Jun 2012 14:07 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by gmlongo"
vaette Member since:
2008-08-09

I think the most likely suggestion here is to go the horizontally scrolling overflowing column route. At least that is the setup that Microsoft appears to favor for Metro, since pretty much all Metro apps have to solve a similar problem. For the actual front-page I would expect that this could be made to work fairly nicely, but I'll readily admit that the comment section is a trickier problem.

edit: To add to this, stories on the front-page are currently about 600 pixels wide. I can in fullscreen on a 1920x1080 monitor see four "main" stories. Narrowing them slightly to just under 500 pixels would allow those to be fit side-by-side for the purposes of a horizontal layout, and they could then get most of the 1080 height to themselves, allowing much longer sections of the stories to be visible. Granted, the "page 2" part also needs to be fit in there, but those could serve to fill out the columns. Unfortunately this is a bit more work, since packing the columns needs to be done somewhat intelligently, but it certainly seems like a reasonable way to do things when trying to use the space.

Edited 2012-06-04 14:15 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment by gmlongo
by Chrispynutt on Mon 4th Jun 2012 14:12 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by gmlongo"
Chrispynutt Member since:
2012-03-14

I think it is worth noting that many of us stopped using the Gawker sites when they went to what felt like a Tablet site design that happened to work on a desktop. So make sure you use analytics to make sure that any design choices are backed up by usage and trends.

Is there a strong corellation between those that have high res screens and those using up to date browsers?

If so you might want to take a look at multi-column at extreme width if you are planning a reactive design.
http://caniuse.com/multicolumn

Reply Score: 1

RE: Comment by gmlongo
by aliquis on Fri 8th Jun 2012 06:01 UTC in reply to "Comment by gmlongo"
aliquis Member since:
2005-07-23

Exactly. I like how he makes a point of how bad it uses the space with the website he's actually posting to himself.

Oh really?

You want to have more text in the horizontal plane? Make two columns of OSnews ..

Reply Score: 2

We can use a better GUI
by Nth_Man on Sun 3rd Jun 2012 22:42 UTC
Nth_Man
Member since:
2010-05-16

Instead of just complaining, let's get constructive.

Yes! We can use a better GUI! :-)

Reply Score: 4

RE: We can use a better GUI
by Nth_Man on Mon 4th Jun 2012 08:44 UTC in reply to "We can use a better GUI"
Nth_Man Member since:
2010-05-16

Go to the land of the free, where you are not forced; use what you need, use what you want! :-)

Edited 2012-06-04 08:48 UTC

Reply Score: 2

DREVILl30564
Member since:
2008-04-18

There isn't much point in complaining about any of the shortcomings of Metro. It isn't like Microsoft is going to listen to what we the Consumers have to say. If they were going to listen to us they would have added the ability to switch from metro to a "Classic" desktop environment with a start menu.

Reply Score: 5

Exactly
by shotsman on Mon 4th Jun 2012 08:49 UTC in reply to "pointless to complain about metro and it's shortcomings"
shotsman Member since:
2005-07-22

People talk about the Apple RDF. Well, the microsoft one is even worse.
The 'la-la-la-la I can't hear you' attitude of microsoft speak volumes about how much they care about the hundresds of millions of users (say 10%) who will/are mightly peed off about the introduction of Aero.

I know that my employer is already thinking long and hard about not using windows any longer once Server 2008 stops being sold. This means no more server licenses. No more SQLServer Licenses, RHEL & Oracle here we come.

On the desktop front, we have just finished rolling out Windows 7. Many of us virtualize the corporate build and install Linux in its place already.
Notes and LibreOffice are making the need to use windows less and less.

Even some of my friends who work for MS are dispairing at the thought of Metro. They are already hearing dissent from their customers. This is a step too far by far.

If they were to make Windows 8 have both classic and Metro then I am sure that over time it would gain acceptance.
Even those masters of the RDF, Apple didn't force OSX onto their users. The kept MacOS-9 going for sometime after the introduction of OSX. will MS learn a lesson here?

Sadly I doubt it.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Exactly
by zima on Mon 4th Jun 2012 12:22 UTC in reply to "Exactly"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Notes and LibreOffice are making the need to use windows less and less.

Lotus Notes? You poor, poor thing... ;)

Even those masters of the RDF, Apple didn't force OSX onto their users. The kept MacOS-9 going for sometime after the introduction of OSX. will MS learn a lesson here?

How are the downgrade rights that MS gives worse, and what MS needs to additionally learn? (plus, with MS those are good operating systems, at least on a technical level - Apple kept not-very-good OS9 available because OSX itself was a pig for at least the first two releases, and large part of essential Mac software ran only on OS9 - well, or in Classic under OSX, making it even more of a pig / overhead)
And with largish employer / company, it's not about individual licenses but more or less subscription to any MS OS you want, anyway.


WRT RDF - come on, we're talking about a movement which refused to pirate OS8, bought en masse a substandard product to ~"help save Apple" ( http://www.forbes.com/1997/08/08/column.html ) ...hard to beat that one.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Exactly
by shotsman on Mon 4th Jun 2012 15:34 UTC in reply to "RE: Exactly"
shotsman Member since:
2005-07-22

At least notes runs on Linux. You can't say that for a Microsoft Email client. Then there is that joke called 'entorage'. I'm sorry but despite all its shortcomings I'd far rather use notes than exchange.

I was referring to OS9 not OS8.
I could come back and rant on about 'Windows ME', Windows 'The wow starts now' Vista but I won't.
Every company comes out with some dodgy software from time to time. Dec VMS V5.0 was another.
What I was trying to say was that when OSX started shipping, Apple realised that not everyone wanted to move to it right away. so you bought your new Mac and got the old and the new software disks in the package.

If Microsoft would understand that a good proportion of their userbase does not like or want Metro to be forced on them and announce that they would continue to sell(and update) Windows 7 and Server 2008 then a lot of the naysayers would be satisfied.
It seems to me that at the moment microsoft in denial about how Metro well will be accepted in the real world. Even some of their most proactive supporters in the press are beginning to doubt the wisdom of this move.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Exactly
by zima on Tue 5th Jun 2012 05:58 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Exactly"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Yeah, Lotus Notes is multiplatform, and that's pretty much its only redeeming quality ;) (the humanity would be possibly better off if Notes didn't run anywhere, any more ;p )

I wasn't writing only about OS8, also OS9 - just that news article talked specifically about OS8 (besides, OS9 wasn't much better, and with the initially intended numbering it probably even would be OS8 - but OS 7.7 was renamed 8, to terminate clones; and OS9 was also expected at first to be OS8.smth; they are close)

Yes, ME or Vista were a bit dodgy - but there were decent Win releases around their time, actually offered by MS (at the least via downgrade rights, or generally via "pick any OS you like" licensing deals with companies).

Vista is more contemporary to us than that OS9/X thing, BTW, so if anything MS is the one who more recently demonstrated how they do get it... (vs., I don't know, the not very optional in practice iOS upgrades - which do break the experience on older devices a bit)
Windows 7 (VistaSE really, BTW) will be supported until 2020 or so, XP is still supported.
What is the difference between throwing a CD into the box and downgrade rights? (other than the former wasting plastic and/or an admission, just masked by RDF, how inadequate the default was and/or PC OEMs avoiding such expense - they're different than a manufacturer doing both hw & sw)

So again, what does MS needs to additionally learn? (and what does any present denial about Metro acceptance change? IIRC they hyped Vista, too)

Edited 2012-06-05 06:03 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Exactly
by MadRat on Tue 5th Jun 2012 12:49 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Exactly"
MadRat Member since:
2006-02-17

Don't let anyone bash you for Notes. It's a good client especially in an enterprise environment.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Exactly
by MollyC on Mon 4th Jun 2012 21:47 UTC in reply to "Exactly"
MollyC Member since:
2006-07-04

ACtually, there've been a number of changes from the DP to the CP and to the RP, in response to users' feedback. The inclusing of Flash in Metro IE10, for example.

Reply Score: 2

Just piling on...
by malxau on Mon 4th Jun 2012 03:39 UTC
malxau
Member since:
2005-12-04

Taking the hypothetical usage data, if 90% of users single task, they're seeing that white space today. Actually I saw it while reading the article, and I'm sure many others did too. And if 100 million users is a lot, 900 million is a lot too.

Metro is a one-size-fits-all environment. I don't mean to defend it, but if the outcome is forcing the 10% to see what the 90% see every day, it might achieve a lot more than its value as a desktop environment.

Note that websites coded for a relatively fixed width can only be resized within a narrow band - too small, scrollbars emerge; too large, whitespace. If the outcome is thinking freshly about how to render content at different sizes, it won't just be metro users who benefit, but those who like to resize windows to very customized dimensions too.

Yes, the web is the way it is. And yet, the web is popular - so the good news is that while it's ugly, it's no dealbreaker to people viewing OSNews and countless other sites. If that 10% of people who design websites are now having to think freshly about the problem, we all benefit.

Reply Score: 2

MS is struggling
by benali72 on Mon 4th Jun 2012 04:01 UTC
benali72
Member since:
2008-05-03

That MS is struggling with such basic issues as the difference in work styles between handheld and desktop/laptop users shows they are a company that has lost its way.

Like most professionals who use computers, I feel that if they want to add handheld/touch interface, great. But making it difficult to access the Classic desktop .... big mistake. We may see a real textbook lesson in monopolistic control to see how they make this one stick.

Reply Score: 3

Bravo Thom,
by Nelson on Mon 4th Jun 2012 05:21 UTC
Nelson
Member since:
2005-11-29

Excellent post with real constructive criticism and genuine solutions. +1.

For #1 though, a few nitpicks:

You can get around the issue of OSNews looking terrible in it's "snapped state" by implementing CSS3 Media Queries and adapting to changes in the layout size.

Overall though, you make your point well. I would like the snapping mechanism to be overhauled in the near future, with fine grained control over what individual apps (Both Metro and Classic) can snap.

Good examples include seeing 2 or more browser tabs side by side, Visual Studio panes, etc.

I believe this is where it's going eventually. It is actually an app store requirement that Apps implement a good snapped state UI, so hopefully you won't be in the situation where apps don't take advantage of the layout size.

The rest of your points I can get behind 100% .

Reply Score: 3

Comment by marcp
by marcp on Mon 4th Jun 2012 05:54 UTC
marcp
Member since:
2007-11-23

I can't understand how using Metro can be productive. It's beyond my comprehension. From what I've tested so far it is one, huge joke. The worst thing - however - is that you practically have no choice if you're Windows user. It's just forced down your throat and there's nothing you can really do about it.
It reminds me of Unity and Gnome3 in *nix worlds, but there - at least - you have a choice of plentora of other desktops. Windows doesn't give you any choice [and let's not call this "Windows Classic mode" a valuable alternative, please ... It doesn't seem to be one].

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by marcp
by l3v1 on Mon 4th Jun 2012 07:17 UTC in reply to "Comment by marcp"
l3v1 Member since:
2005-07-06

[and let's not call this "Windows Classic mode" a valuable alternative, please ... It doesn't seem to be one].


What I did with pre-RP versions was that I put notepad.exe into the startup folder and installed a startmenu replacement (there are a few options for that) and after login and a few seconds wait, it went automatically to the desktop. In RP I tried to do the same thing by puttin notepad.exe in the HCU/Sw/Ms/Win/CV/Run in the registry, and it starts notepad, but it doesn't switch automatically to the desktop. I couldn't solve this up to now (maybe someone else could, I didn't search for it yet).

I don't really have time for it, but I hope someone will, to make (either through a custom program, or with some internal Win8 smartness) Win8 automatically drop you on the desktop after login.

Edited 2012-06-04 07:17 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by marcp
by hoak on Mon 4th Jun 2012 07:23 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by marcp"
hoak Member since:
2007-12-17

You can use Classic Shell, a third party application, but what a kludge to have to do this...

http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by marcp
by Nelson on Mon 4th Jun 2012 07:42 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by marcp"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Is it really terribly hard to hit WinKey+D to launch the desktop?

Some people are ridiculous.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Comment by marcp
by adkilla on Mon 4th Jun 2012 08:03 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by marcp"
adkilla Member since:
2005-07-07

You mean people must wait in front of their PC and manually do it instead automating it?

You sir are utterly ridiculous.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Comment by marcp
by Nelson on Mon 4th Jun 2012 08:17 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by marcp"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Say it again with me:

Login to Windows:
Type WinKey+D

I'm not asking you for a college thesis here. I'm sure you can do it.

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: Comment by marcp
by tomcat on Mon 4th Jun 2012 18:36 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by marcp"
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

You're preaching to the helpless. There is no cure for stupid.

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: Comment by marcp
by nt_jerkface on Tue 5th Jun 2012 04:11 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by marcp"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

There seems to be no cure for a mind that can't distinguish efficiency.

I would gladly pay for Sinofsky's cure if I could but he a hopeless Mac lover who will have to burn a few billion MS bucks and cut the stock down before the world realizes he is a jackass.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Comment by marcp
by Nelson on Tue 5th Jun 2012 07:11 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by marcp"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

This is the same guy who was at the helm of the successful development and launch of Windows 7. Yeah, that OS everyone loves so much, him.

He's suddenly the target of your scorn, and why you try very hard to paint him as a know-nothing is beyond me.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by marcp
by l3v1 on Mon 4th Jun 2012 09:49 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by marcp"
l3v1 Member since:
2005-07-06

Some people are ridiculous.


Well, no more ridiculous than those people who can't include a "disable metro" option somewhere.

Reply Score: 3

Comment by sagum
by sagum on Mon 4th Jun 2012 05:57 UTC
sagum
Member since:
2006-01-23

my parents win8 install failed yesterday morning. powered on to find mail, messenger and a few others saying something went wrong and give a link to the answers page with no actual topics... not impressed with it

Reply Score: 1

RE: Comment by sagum
by Adurbe on Mon 4th Jun 2012 13:12 UTC in reply to "Comment by sagum"
Adurbe Member since:
2005-07-06

its a preview.. im guessing you recommended they install it. I would more question that judgement rather than complain an unfinished product is unfinished.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by sagum
by sagum on Mon 4th Jun 2012 17:21 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by sagum"
sagum Member since:
2006-01-23

its a preview.. im guessing you recommended they install it. I would more question that judgement rather than complain an unfinished product is unfinished.


Actually, no. My dad asked to try it. He has wanted to try it since Consumer Preview.

I put him back with Windows 7 today. He said even basic things were missing, such as being able to share a picture in messenger, no way to change the font/size, too empty (white space) and too much pulling down on things (IE metro tabs, and active metro apps on the left) and just getting to his pictures to view manage them wasn't as easy for him.

All very valid points, for the average consumer these things are show stoppers and I'd have thought that microsoft would have polished them up before releasing it as a consumer preview let alone a release preview.

Reply Score: 1

Unaddressed
by hoak on Mon 4th Jun 2012 07:12 UTC
hoak
Member since:
2007-12-17

As often as I agree with Thom, he has not addressed the most onerous limitation of Metro, which is the single task, single application view Metro confers on the entire OS, even when using the legacy Desktop..

This has only been obliquely discussed and casually mentioned, but for many Enterprise and Production applications this won't be just a 'deal breaker' but could literally escalate to 'life and death' -- and for any User that 'uses' the OS for more then consumption, it's a huge waste of time and effort in UI manipulation to do work that requires more then on application.

The number roles the OS could potentially be deployed in that are mission critical in industry, government, and public service is enormous, but in many of these deployments Operators and Users must be able to concurrently keep an eye on multiple tasks and applications in real-time without interruption.

Many features of the Metro UI force the User to use single task parts of Metro interrupting and obfuscating other work that's being monitored and performed completely removing multi-tasking from the OS as far as User input and observation are concerned -- this is not acceptable OS design that can even be tolerated in these roles.

Similarly in production environments where interruptions can cost millions a minute (or more) this sort of thing just won't fly. Paul Thurrott may be correct in his May 29 essay in that Microsoft may have literally 'Give'n Up' on Windows 8 for businesses -- and any serious use of the OS over and above passive consumption...

Edited 2012-06-04 07:15 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE: Unaddressed
by l3v1 on Mon 4th Jun 2012 07:22 UTC in reply to "Unaddressed"
l3v1 Member since:
2005-07-06

and any serious use of the OS over and above passive consumption


While that seems to be the case at this point, I doubt thay'd want to do that, that would be suicide. The consumer-only user base is pretty large, that's true, but surviving only on them - without the enterprise market and the associated developer base - doesn't sound very realistic. If they'd drop everything and go fully for a consumer-centric OS, that could be the largest win imaginable for iOS and Android (and for Ubuntu on the desktop as well).

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Unaddressed
by Nelson on Mon 4th Jun 2012 07:46 UTC in reply to "RE: Unaddressed"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Just like Vista was going to herald the beginning of the end of Microsoft..dream on.

If Microsoft can break their dependency on slow moving businesses, then that's a proposition which would likely look very attractive to them. The key isn't to see where things are now, but where things are going.

Mobile growth is exploding, the form factors people use are changing, and the use cases around the devices are changing.

Microsoft makes 30% off of any paid app in the app store, that's up from 0% currently under Windows 7. The money is obviously in their consumer market.

Doesn't open up any opportunity for Linux particularly, because they have their own shit they need to get together, plus there's always Windows 7.

At least until Windows 9 comes, Microsoft has more breathing room, and is able to refine what is Windows 8 to fit businesses a little more naturally. By then I speculate that WinRT will be mature enough to fully replace Win32.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Unaddressed
by adkilla on Mon 4th Jun 2012 08:13 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Unaddressed"
adkilla Member since:
2005-07-07

Just like Vista was going to herald the beginning of the end of Microsoft..dream on.


Vista did not shove a new restrictive usability paradigm down on users. The negative reaction to Vista was due to performance, compatibility and under the hood changes. Windows 8 is a totally different kettle of fish.

At least until Windows 9 comes, Microsoft has more breathing room, and is able to refine what is Windows 8 to fit businesses a little more naturally. By then I speculate that WinRT will be mature enough to fully replace Win32.


You mean like how .Net has replaced Win32?

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: Unaddressed
by Nelson on Mon 4th Jun 2012 08:25 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Unaddressed"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29


Vista did not shove a new restrictive usability paradigm down on users. The negative reaction to Vista was due to performance, compatibility and under the hood changes. Windows 8 is a totally different kettle of fish.


Oh sure. Vista's DRM was going to herald the end of computing. It was going to take your first born and lock him away in a dungeon.

Aero Glass was never going to be liked, I can't believe they're actually using the graphics card!

Oh, want some more hilarity? People complained they couldn't get the Classic Style start menu in Windows 7.

Fast forward to today, people bitch about Aero going away and the Start Menu (The same one they bitched about a version ago) going away.

Some people are so unbelievably fickle it amazes me.


You mean like how .Net has replaced Win32?


.NET birthed XAML, which is now a core part of the Windows Division. And C# (which runs ontop of .NET) is a first class WinRT citizen.

The WinRT APIs (and the WinRT additions to COM most notably inheritance using IInspectable and aggregation) are clearly inspired by .NET .

C++/CX includes things like Generics, Interfaces, and Partial Classes which come straight from C# .

Oh, and that WinRT thing, the entire bedrock of Windows 8? The metadata format comes directly from .NET . You can use .NET dissasemblers to inspect the WinRT APIs.

So yes, .NET has had a hand in replacing Win32. Of course, over a decade and a half some details change, but the influence is still there.

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: Unaddressed
by ichi on Mon 4th Jun 2012 08:57 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Unaddressed"
ichi Member since:
2007-03-06

Oh, want some more hilarity? People complained they couldn't get the Classic Style start menu in Windows 7.

Fast forward to today, people bitch about Aero going away and the Start Menu (The same one they bitched about a version ago) going away.

Some people are so unbelievably fickle it amazes me.


It's funny when people bring past arguements as if they somehow invalidated current complains.

First they assume that all those complains have been raised by exactly the same individuals that would have been changing their minds through time.

Then they completely ignore that just because someone wants old features back doesn't necesarily mean they were particulary good, maybe it's just that the new ones are worse.

Reply Score: 4

RE[6]: Unaddressed
by Nelson on Mon 4th Jun 2012 09:03 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Unaddressed"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

My point is, past is prologue. People are afraid of change, however trivial it might be.

People complained about Aero Glass, before they complained about Luna. Then they complained about how DRM would end the world (Remember the fanatical FSF articles? Yeah, I cringe too.)

With 7 it was the new Taskbar and removal of the classic start menu. (Omg where are my program text labels, the lack of redundant information is killing me!)

Now people love the Taskbar, love Aero, love Windows 7. The same people who dogged Windows XP relentlessly for years, and Vista, and 7 at the time.

People will love Metro. I bet you in ten years, any tweak to Metro will be a travesty.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Unaddressed
by Thom_Holwerda on Mon 4th Jun 2012 09:04 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Unaddressed"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

People will love Metro.


Bookmarked.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Unaddressed
by ichi on Mon 4th Jun 2012 09:30 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Unaddressed"
ichi Member since:
2007-03-06

My point is, past is prologue. People are afraid of change, however trivial it might be.


True, but that reasoning also serves as excuse to dismiss complains about changes that are for the worse.

People complained about Aero Glass, before they complained about Luna. Then they complained about how DRM would end the world (Remember the fanatical FSF articles? Yeah, I cringe too.)

With 7 it was the new Taskbar and removal of the classic start menu. (Omg where are my program text labels, the lack of redundant information is killing me!)

Now people love the Taskbar, love Aero, love Windows 7. The same people who dogged Windows XP relentlessly for years, and Vista, and 7 at the time.

People will love Metro. I bet you in ten years, any tweak to Metro will be a travesty.


And you are again asuming that it's the same people that complained about those things that now love them, which would surely come handy to sweep aside all the critizism about Windows8 wasn't it because you are just making assumptions.

I've yet to find anyone in real life that "loves" Windows 7 anyway (or any other OS, for that matter). Maybe that's just a nerd thing, while the rest of the world just tries to get things done with whatever they have at hand, often wondering why they keep changing things just when they had managed to get used the last OS release.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Unaddressed
by WereCatf on Mon 4th Jun 2012 10:14 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Unaddressed"
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

People will love Metro.


I've said it before and I don't mind repeating it: the general populace will whine at first mostly because they just don't want to have to learn new things, and eventually they'll settle for Metro. They won't love it, but they won't hate it either.

It's the geeks who go from one extreme to another.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Unaddressed
by nt_jerkface on Tue 5th Jun 2012 04:08 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Unaddressed"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

.NET is used more often for new software but most in-house is Win32 by inertia. Win32 isn't dead but .NET is certainly more popular for new projects.

Windows 7 polled well early on but the early feedback on Windows 8 is negative.

You and Sinofsky can live in denial but this OS is going to flop. The polls are dead on, Windows 8 sucks. Enterprise is going to be livid when they are asked to pay for this.
http://www.overclock.net/t/1238259/poll-will-you-buy-windows-8/320

This will be worse than Vista.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Unaddressed
by Nelson on Tue 5th Jun 2012 07:09 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Unaddressed"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

This will be worse than Vista.


You mean, Vista, that colossal failure? The same OS which sold 20 MILLION copies in its first month?

The same OS which sold 180 MILLION copies in its first year?

The OS with a total install base of 330 MILLION?

Let's keep things in perspective, maybe Vista got some (arguably unfair) bad PR, but a sales failure it was not. At the time, it was Microsoft's fastest selling PC operating system.

I'm sure Windows 8 will be the same.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Unaddressed
by cyrilleberger on Tue 5th Jun 2012 10:22 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Unaddressed"
cyrilleberger Member since:
2006-02-01

"This will be worse than Vista.


You mean, Vista, that colossal failure? The same OS which sold 20 MILLION copies in its first month?
"

How many of them were forced sales ? A few months after the release of Vista, it was not possible to buy anymore a computer with XP. So people who needed to buy a computer were facing the choice of "not buying a computer" or "buying a computer with Vista". Guess which option they chose ?

They got so much bad PR, that they had to offer people buying a computer with Vista the option to downgrade it to XP.

And as of today, there are still three times more users of XP than Vista (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems).

Also worth to note, W7's retail sales were 234% higher than of Vista
(http://technorati.com/business/article/windows-7-retail-sales-extre...). It shows how much people were interested in W7 in comparison to Vista.

I'm sure Windows 8 will be the same.


That I can agree, Windows 8 will be forced sale upon people when they buy a new computer.

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: Unaddressed
by nt_jerkface on Tue 5th Jun 2012 14:23 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Unaddressed"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

I am keeping it in perspective which is that their image was seriously damaged and there were defections to the mac.

There was also the negative perception that lingered even after Vista had been fixed. It didn't matter, consumers had decided that Vista was bad and Microsoft decided to stop trying to convince them otherwise and release Windows 7.

Why risk the same fiasco? For what? Your attitude of "they'll buy it anyways" says a lot about the product itself. I don't see Windows 8 defenders blogging about how much they love having their icons dumped onto a horizontal screen or having their multi-monitor setup gimped. Defenses typically revolve around "getting used to it" which says everything. When the customer doesn't like the meal you don't say "WELL YOU WILL GET USED TO IT". Good Christ you and Sinofsky don't get business as well as a little girl running a lemonade stand.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Unaddressed
by hoak on Mon 4th Jun 2012 08:47 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Unaddressed"
hoak Member since:
2007-12-17

Nelson you need to learn to do a little market research as to where Microsoft makes it's bread and butter, always has, and where it never has... The 'Mobile Market' is an abject fad of consumption toys for idiots that don't really know how to use computers for productive work...

That's well and fine and it may make money, but the people that actually make those toys and the toy software for them need an OS with a multi-tasking interface to make them for you -- not to mention the people that dispatch the ambulance for the Cretins that can't play with their passive consumption toys and walk or drive at the same time...

Edited 2012-06-04 08:52 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Unaddressed
by Nelson on Mon 4th Jun 2012 08:58 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Unaddressed"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Developers are well taken care of in Windows 8. Microsoft has done a spectacular job with every aspect of the developer story.

Visual Studio 2012 knocks it out of the park. C# is improved dramatically with async/await.

XAML is fast and fluid, first class support from C# and even C++

JS/HTML5 have great tooling alongside XAML in Blend.

Developers are going to love Windows 8, and in fact, I read an article where an Android developer said its no contest, Windows 8 is hands down the better development platform.

The tooling is superior, the languages are superior, and the APIs are conducive to creating a great experience on all form factors. So what exactly is it you're worried about?

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Unaddressed
by l3v1 on Mon 4th Jun 2012 09:52 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Unaddressed"
l3v1 Member since:
2005-07-06

an Android developer said its no contest, Windows 8 is hands down the better development platform


Might turn out to be true, unless you want native app (or at least parts of it) development.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Unaddressed
by Nelson on Mon 4th Jun 2012 09:59 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Unaddressed"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Why? C++ is perfectly useable from WinRT.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Unaddressed
by nt_jerkface on Tue 5th Jun 2012 04:05 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Unaddressed"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

No they won't.

We Windows developers have been complaining on the MSDN blogs. The overwhelming opinion is negative.

This OS SUCKS for anyone who uses more than a browser.

Why doesn't Sinofsky allow Metro to be a choice? Because he knows that he can only force it on the market, it's not good enough to stand alone on merit.

P.S. I own a Windows Phone and like it so please keep the retarded "ur just afraid of change" defense out of this. I somehow wasn't afraid of Metro in WP7 but detest how it is used in Windows 8. Metro in WP7 makes sense but in Windows 8 it is shoved down your throat. Dumping a bunch of icons onto the desktop is not more efficient than a folder tree-view, I kind of thought that was common sense.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Unaddressed
by Nelson on Tue 5th Jun 2012 07:05 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Unaddressed"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29


We Windows developers have been complaining on the MSDN blogs. The overwhelming opinion is negative.


The feedback has not been overwhelmingly negative as you suggest, in fact, gathering something like that purely from comments on a blog (With no guarantee on the technical background of any said commenter) is intellectually dishonest.


This OS SUCKS for anyone who uses more than a browser.

Why doesn't Sinofsky allow Metro to be a choice? Because he knows that he can only force it on the market, it's not good enough to stand alone on merit.


I suppose you're entitled to your opinion, I just respectfully disagree. In my own use, I've found it to be useful for me, and I use it for more than a browser, so I question the wisdom of what you say.


P.S. I own a Windows Phone and like it so please keep the retarded "ur just afraid of change" defense out of this. I somehow wasn't afraid of Metro in WP7 but detest how it is used in Windows 8. Metro in WP7 makes sense but in Windows 8 it is shoved down your throat. Dumping a bunch of icons onto the desktop is not more efficient than a folder tree-view, I kind of thought that was common sense.


That's nice.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Unaddressed
by hoak on Tue 5th Jun 2012 10:10 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Unaddressed"
hoak Member since:
2007-12-17

Nelson is paid Microsoft shill, don't even bother arguing with independently qualified facts, the guy is technically illiterate, trolls incessantly and would lie about the color green...

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Unaddressed
by OMRebel on Tue 5th Jun 2012 17:28 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Unaddressed"
OMRebel Member since:
2005-11-14

Developers are well taken care of in Windows 8. Microsoft has done a spectacular job with every aspect of the developer story.

Visual Studio 2012 knocks it out of the park. C# is improved dramatically with async/await.

XAML is fast and fluid, first class support from C# and even C++

JS/HTML5 have great tooling alongside XAML in Blend.

Developers are going to love Windows 8, and in fact, I read an article where an Android developer said its no contest, Windows 8 is hands down the better development platform.

The tooling is superior, the languages are superior, and the APIs are conducive to creating a great experience on all form factors. So what exactly is it you're worried about?


That's a joke right? Visual Studio 2012 is a horrible monstrosity! Unless you are someone that likes in a plain gray house, with gray walls, zero color, and take anti-depressants like they are candy.

The new UI for Visual Studio 2012 has reverted back to an early 90's appearance with lack of color making it harder for a developer to actually find what they are looking for - commonly used objects no longer stand out. That is a horrible mistake of any UI to have everything blend in like that.

Seriously, anyone that thinks the new UI for VS 2012 is actually an improvement needs to be taken out behind a woodshed......

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: Unaddressed
by Nelson on Wed 6th Jun 2012 03:04 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Unaddressed"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29


The new UI for Visual Studio 2012 has reverted back to an early 90's appearance with lack of color making it harder for a developer to actually find what they are looking for - commonly used objects no longer stand out. That is a horrible mistake of any UI to have everything blend in like that.

Seriously, anyone that thinks the new UI for VS 2012 is actually an improvement needs to be taken out behind a woodshed......


The UI in VS2012 RC is nothing like you describe. Might help to try it out.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Unaddressed
by OMRebel on Wed 6th Jun 2012 17:28 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Unaddressed"
OMRebel Member since:
2005-11-14

The UI in VS2012 RC is nothing like you describe. Might help to try it out.


Not bland and blended together?

This:
http://www.c-sharpcorner.com/UploadFile/592808/install-visual-studi...

And the stupid, stupid, stupid CAPITALIZATION of the menus:
http://www.c-sharpcorner.com/UploadFile/592808/install-visual-studi...

Crappy:
http://freshbrewedcode.com/danmohl/files/2012/06/FsCsMvc4VS21012RC....

My point still stands. Horrible UI that is counter-productive for developers.

Reply Score: 2

Arnoud
Member since:
2010-06-16

I found the described workflow in this comment: http://www.reddit.com/r/windows/comments/ui5y4/so_does_anyone_in_th... on Reddit pretty interesting. Particularly how they setup the start screen: http://imgur.com/UcjKg Other than using it as a launcher for desktop applications and using a weather live tile, Metro is ignored. I can image this working as well or even better than the archaic start menu when some time is taken to getting used to it and using the keyboard more than the mouse.

Still, a big problem is that Microsoft seems intent to eventually move away from the desktop for all applications, including productivity. So please Microsoft, show some decently complex productivity app examples instead of just a dozen RSS readers or a dashboard mockup of Dynamics (still only showing pretty data).

Edited 2012-06-04 07:44 UTC

Reply Score: 1

ReactOS shell
by Z_God on Mon 4th Jun 2012 08:43 UTC
Z_God
Member since:
2006-06-11

Has anyone tried installing the shell from ReactOS in these new Windows versions? How does that work?

Reply Score: 1

RE: ReactOS shell
by hoak on Tue 5th Jun 2012 10:13 UTC in reply to "ReactOS shell"
hoak Member since:
2007-12-17

No, but Classic Shell works fine...

http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: ReactOS shell
by Z_God on Tue 5th Jun 2012 14:55 UTC in reply to "RE: ReactOS shell"
Z_God Member since:
2006-06-11

Problem solved I'd say then ;)

Reply Score: 1

Metro Is Not Multi-Tasking UI
by hoak on Mon 4th Jun 2012 08:59 UTC
hoak
Member since:
2007-12-17

Do any of the Metro apologists here even understand that Metro is not a multi-tasking interface? It does not even allow you to concurrently view and use even two applications no less the eleven I have currently running and visible that I need to get work done. Do any of the Metro apologists use the Windows OS for more than passive consumption and entertainment?

Reply Score: 6

RE: Metro Is Not Multi-Tasking UI
by Nelson on Mon 4th Jun 2012 09:04 UTC in reply to "Metro Is Not Multi-Tasking UI"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

- Sincerely,
Someone who's never used Windows 8.

Reply Score: 1

hoak Member since:
2007-12-17

Is that a painful admission? It must to be here shilling for Microsoft as you are and not even have used the OS, but the pay is good isn't it?

=O)

Reply Score: 2

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Want to talk pain? Pain is trying to find the logic in your posts.

Reply Score: 2

hoak Member since:
2007-12-17

If it was that painful you wouldn't troll my posts so incessantly Nelson...

Reply Score: 1

Points 2 & 3 won't happened
by phoudoin on Mon 4th Jun 2012 11:16 UTC
phoudoin
Member since:
2006-06-09

Having a less degraded classic apps experience under Metro will never happened.

Simply because it's a voluntary move.

Microsoft don't want people to keep using classic apps. What they want is people asking Metro apps because classic ones are now crappier to use.
Because Microsoft needs that developers write Metro apps, a way better locked platform on which Microsoft is putting most of his hopes to become back the wealthiest IT company.

And if for that you needs to make people experience a little bit worse, they wont care one bit.

Personnaly, I see nothing in Windows 8 that could motivate me enough to upgrade from... XP.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Points 2 & 3 won't happened
by MollyC on Mon 4th Jun 2012 21:34 UTC in reply to "Points 2 & 3 won't happened"
MollyC Member since:
2006-07-04

Personnaly, I see nothing in Windows 8 that could motivate me enough to upgrade from... XP.


Plenty of folks said the same thing wrt upgrading from Win2000 to XP.

Reply Score: 2

Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

Well, ten years later, after putting my hand on a computer running Win2K, I still couldn't figure out why Microsoft would go Fisher Price on their user interface and double the hardware requirements with XP...

Me->XP or 98->XP, now, I can see how that was an upgrade.

Reply Score: 1

zima Member since:
2005-07-06

With 2k->XP, MS was probably mostly just more honest in citing hw requirements necessary for pleasant experience.

And then, later service packs added to it (with the focus on safety probably taking its toll in resources; while 2k comes from blissful, more innocent times).

BTW "Fisher Price" - yeah, I always turned it off, but people got used to it ...and notice how some are now describing Win8 like that (while probably feeling nostalgic about XP)

Reply Score: 2

RE: Points 2 & 3 won't happened
by nt_jerkface on Tue 5th Jun 2012 14:25 UTC in reply to "Points 2 & 3 won't happened"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

Good luck to Microsoft getting users to stop using a classic app called iTunes.

Sinofsky also doesn't get how much work it would be to convert Office. There is a douchebag in charge of Windows and it appears that only a train wreck will get him out.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Points 2 & 3 won't happened
by Nelson on Tue 5th Jun 2012 15:43 UTC in reply to "RE: Points 2 & 3 won't happened"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

You know classic apps still work, right? I mean, you have actually used Windows 8?

Reply Score: 2

nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

Try following the entire thread before responding.

I honestly hope you're getting paid to shill for this craptastic OS.

Otherwise that makes you the most deluded fanboy on the internet for June 5th, 2012. Congrats.

Reply Score: 2

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

So you haven't used it. Gotcha.

Reply Score: 1

nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

Yea that must be it. My blog posts on Windows 8 are all based on my imagination.

My comment was in response to "Microsoft doesn't want people to keep using classic apps" which I believe is true, well if you fill in Sinofsky for Microsoft.

The more you put your head in the sand the more you look like one of those idiots trying to push their 20% candidate on the rest of us even though he polls the same in every election. Wake the f*** up, people are just not liking what you are selling.

Reply Score: 2

Metro issue or not
by vaette on Mon 4th Jun 2012 11:58 UTC
vaette
Member since:
2008-08-09

I wont get into the Metro debate too much, since I have stated my opinions on it before. However; even if you don't view the situation with full-screen webpages as ideal you should certainly view it as a challenge to make OSnews use the space it gets in the most efficient way possible. A specific CSS setup for wide displays, perhaps reflowing it in the horizontal column layout that this setup favors.

It shouldn't be a huge undertaking, and would probably look better on a fair number of other devices as well. It is a bit backwards to complain that the operating system is providing OSnews with more space than it expects ;)

Edited 2012-06-04 12:03 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Win8 was *their* idea
by John Blink on Mon 4th Jun 2012 13:17 UTC
John Blink
Member since:
2005-10-11

Remember the Win7 ads that ended with the phrase "windows 7 was my idea"? Well now it is their idea and we hate it ;)

eg. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLAO9YnlJSU

I wonder what their new marketing spin will be.

Thom. Don't have win8 on a PC at the moment but I think you can right click a "classic" app and "pin to start menu" which is all I see metro as, an app launcher.

Reply Score: 2

Let's just sit back and watch....
by jnemesh on Mon 4th Jun 2012 15:47 UTC
jnemesh
Member since:
2008-04-08

Anyone else get the feeling this is like watching a plane crash in slow motion?

I say, let them release this pile of an OS, sit back, and watch Microsoft slowly crumble under it's own bloated mass.

(gets popcorn ready...)

Reply Score: 2

Like information appliance, only worse
by Verenkeitin on Mon 4th Jun 2012 17:28 UTC
Verenkeitin
Member since:
2007-07-01

Ah the single task fantasy of Jeff Raskin is alive and well. Too bad it's only been observed in usability labs.

Raskin pipe dreamed a world where you have one computer just for email, another for web browser, yet another for spreadsheets and so on ad infinitum. Each one of these 'information appliances' would be designed to do just one thing well, all the way from hardware to GUI.

Maybe that's what Microsoft is trying to do. Only without bothering to do anything properly. They want you to buy a separate computer with a Metro license for every one of your tasks.

:-)

Reply Score: 1

MollyC
Member since:
2006-07-04

I have a 23-inch display, but for some reason have gotten into the habit of browsing in fullscreen mode (I don't know why; I would've been appalled to do so a few years ago). Anyway, Microsoft's data shows that the overwhelming majority of folks use their apps maximized, so they're already used to seeing large unused space to the left and right of a webpage's content.

Reply Score: 2

WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

I have a 23-inch display, but for some reason have gotten into the habit of browsing in fullscreen mode (I don't know why; I would've been appalled to do so a few years ago). Anyway, Microsoft's data shows that the overwhelming majority of folks use their apps maximized, so they're already used to seeing large unused space to the left and right of a webpage's content.


I only have Firefox maximized, almost everything else I like to keep in smaller windows that are easy to move around as needed. But then again, there's two good reasons for having my browser like that: I like to be able to see as much of the content as possible, and I view pictures quite often and thus I would lose on the details if I had the browser non-maximized and the picture was downscaled.

Reply Score: 2

How to fix a Windows 8 computer...
by jnemesh on Mon 4th Jun 2012 23:16 UTC
jnemesh
Member since:
2008-04-08

Format the hard drive, repartition, and install Linux. Simple and FREE!

Reply Score: 0

Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

Forgotten about the secure boot issue already, have you ? ;)

Reply Score: 1

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

The Secure Boot which can be switched off on x86 PCs ?

You and your false dilemmas.

Reply Score: 3

Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

Except that this was not specifically about x86, and that on x86, disabling secure boot will still mean messing with firmware settings and potentially breaking your Windows install, which is at odds with the current ease of booting and installing other OSs that was referred to by the OP.

Reply Score: 1

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Find me an ARM Tablet with a hard drive, which is what the OP says he'd partition.

Reply Score: 2

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Find me an ARM Tablet with a hard drive, which is what the OP says he'd partition.


Every tablet in existence?

Storage doesn't have to be a spinning drive to be partition, you know. My laptop and desktop can attest to it.

Reply Score: 1

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Quit playing semantics.

Reply Score: 2

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Semantics? You asked for a tablet with a hard drive to partition, and I said, every tablet in existence. That's not semantics, it's a proper answer to your question.

If you wanted a different answer because you don't like this one, you may want to think more carefully about how to phrase your question.

Reply Score: 1

Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

Find me an ARM Tablet with a hard drive, which is what the OP says he'd partition.

Okay, you win that one. Good eyes ! ;)

(Though this still negates the potential averse effects of Secure Boot even on x86. where it is not an absolute ban on other OSs but still a major annoyance in their way. Fedora did end up going as low as paying Microsoft for a reason...)

Reply Score: 1

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Was the Fedora thing for x86? That's unfortunate.

Personally, Secure Boot is something I find stupid on non appliance devices (Laptops, Desktops).

Reply Score: 2

Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

Was the Fedora thing for x86? That's unfortunate.

It was. They are against it on ARM for now.

Personally, Secure Boot is something I find stupid on non appliance devices (Laptops, Desktops).

I don't find it stupid, in principle, to sign OS binaries so as to detect if they are altered on boot. My main gripe with Secure Boot is that right now, it is by design a barely disguised method of bootloader locking, rather than the security-oriented feature it claims to be.

Edited 2012-06-05 17:14 UTC

Reply Score: 1

Tweaked Metro would still be crippleware
by Dave_K on Tue 5th Jun 2012 02:23 UTC
Dave_K
Member since:
2005-11-16

I think Thom's proposed Metro tweaks would be a real improvement over the current mess, but it would still be painfully limited compared with the window management we already have.

I've tried tiling window managers and found that they simply don't suit the way I work. No matter how Metro apps could be split, I'd still value the flexibility and versatility of individually moveable and resizeable windows. Being restricted to tiled windows would make many of my day to day tasks significantly less efficient.

In a way I'd be more worried about the future of Windows if Microsoft did improve Metro in the way Thom suggests. The more usable Metro becomes, the more of a sure thing it is that the applications I need will move to it, and the more likely it is that the desktop will ultimately disappear.

As it is, Metro is so painfully limited that a significant number of users are sure to hate it. That makes it more likely that the essential software I use will keep supporting the fully functional desktop.

Reply Score: 2

Metro Sucks
by nt_jerkface on Tue 5th Jun 2012 03:57 UTC
nt_jerkface
Member since:
2009-08-26

I haven't logged in for ages but I have to just to say that Metro sucks and you Windows 8 defenders are out of your minds.

How far would you take the "fear of change" defense? What if Windows 10 was a shiny unicorn that you had to chase with your mouse? Is there nothing to be said about productivity? It's all subjective?

UI design is not modern art, we can objectively state that much of it is bullshit.

Windows 8 is bullshit and I can't believe it has made it this far. It takes more mouse movements to use and if you can't see that then you must spend all day staring at youtube. This OS sucks and I'm a fucking .net developer.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Metro Sucks
by Neolander on Tue 5th Jun 2012 06:29 UTC in reply to "Metro Sucks"
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

Welcome back, sir, I've missed you ! Nelson, tomcat, and MollyC have been taking care of the Microsoft apologist job while you were gone, keeping the comment section's opinion balanced, but they aren't nearly as good at it (too much trolling, too little smart humour).

I guess Microsoft have really badly screwed up this time, though, since apparently they have managed to piss you off too...

Edited 2012-06-05 06:34 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Metro Sucks
by Nelson on Tue 5th Jun 2012 07:14 UTC in reply to "RE: Metro Sucks"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

I am honored to be mentioned amongst the greats :-)

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Metro Sucks
by hoak on Tue 5th Jun 2012 12:52 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Metro Sucks"
hoak Member since:
2007-12-17

The great what? Is it true Nelson that the Microsoft Astroturfing Team gets bonuses for for time undiscovered? You haven't set any records in that regard as you don't even read or understand what you condemn, and you're far to crass an apologist...

Saying 'Shit is the new candy, and it tastes great!' enough times doesn't make it a true, but I supposed if the MAT works hard enough they can make it a fact...

9_9

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Metro Sucks
by nt_jerkface on Wed 6th Jun 2012 03:01 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Metro Sucks"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

Here at Sinofsky's Candy 8 Shop we know how much your kids like our candy which is why we tie them down and force them to eat it.

When they try to spit it up we hit them with a belt and explain that what they taste is actually good, and that they might as well eat the piss flavored candy because they have no choice.

So bring your kids down to Sinofsky's Candy 8 Shop! Your kids will love it!

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Metro Sucks
by Neolander on Tue 5th Jun 2012 16:44 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Metro Sucks"
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

I am honored to be mentioned amongst the greats :-)

You're really more of a necessary evil in this specific case ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Metro Sucks
by nt_jerkface on Tue 5th Jun 2012 14:15 UTC in reply to "RE: Metro Sucks"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

I've never been a Microsoft apologist, I just don't care about the open source religion which is often misconstrued as MS love in a politically divided tech world.

But as far as apologists go I was pretty shocked to see that even Paul Thurrott doesn't like it. If Ballmer was paying attention he would know that if their #1 unpaid blogger doesn't like it then something is seriously wrong.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Metro Sucks
by Neolander on Tue 5th Jun 2012 16:50 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Metro Sucks"
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

I agree that there is such a thing as a religious OSS follower (in a similar fashion that there exists Apple and Microsoft zealots), but you have to agree that until recently, you somehow managed to spin pretty much every move of Microsoft in a positive light.

And since, as you say yourself, you usually prefer Microsoft's stuff, it's only logical of you to go through great lengths to justify your personal choices. I believe everyone does it to some extent.

But that Metro has nevertheless managed to make you and Thurrot ill says something about the quality of the thing.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Metro Sucks
by nt_jerkface on Wed 6th Jun 2012 02:36 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Metro Sucks"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

it's only logical of you to go through great lengths to justify your personal choices.


I never go to great lengths to justify anything.

I enjoy a good technical discussion and on tech forums there is usually a Nix or open source bias which annoys me. The lack of logic is often the problem, as with nuclear power there is often no sense of how emotional the debate has become; the bias has become the norm.

But keep whatever opinion you want of me, I just hope that it is clear that I'm not afraid to call bullshit on bad software. In the past it was Ubuntu and today it is Windows 8.

Reply Score: 2

How to fix Windows 8
by nt_jerkface on Tue 5th Jun 2012 04:19 UTC
nt_jerkface
Member since:
2009-08-26

There is nothing we can do but hope that enterprise screams loudly enough before this piece of crap releases.

Developers on MSDN blogs have been asking to make metro optional but Sinfosky just goes off into bullshit tangents about "evolution of design" or "convergence" instead of answering simple questions like how is the start screen more efficient than the start menu? or can't we already get weather updates on gadgets? The guy is a Steve Jobs wannabe who thinks he knows best but unlike Jobs has no sense of design.

We will probably have to wait and watch this train wreck before ballmer realizes that losing billions from enterprise in the hope of getting pennies on the dollar for tablet sales isn't such a good idea.

Reply Score: 3

RE: How to fix Windows 8
by Nelson on Tue 5th Jun 2012 07:16 UTC in reply to "How to fix Windows 8"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

"Developers" on general facing MSDN blogs? That doesn't sound quite right. I highly doubt a majority, let alone a majority of people giving negative feed back on the MSDN Blogs, are programmers by hobby or profession.

The MSDN developer forums specifically for Windows 8 however, is a different story all together, and the story painted by the posts there are all very different from what you claim to be true here.

Developers love .NET, love C#, love XAML, love C++, love DirectX, love JS, and love HTML5. Most importantly, they love they can use these technologies together on Windows 8.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: How to fix Windows 8
by nt_jerkface on Tue 5th Jun 2012 14:03 UTC in reply to "RE: How to fix Windows 8"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

"Developers" on general facing MSDN blogs? That doesn't sound quite right. I highly doubt a majority, let alone a majority of people giving negative feed back on the MSDN Blogs, are programmers by hobby or profession.


Go to the blogs and start clicking on registered users who are giving negative feedback. 10-1 says most of the positive feedback is coming from employees. I came across a discussion on Codeproject where the majority of users hated it.

Polls like this keep showing that the majority hate it:
http://www.neowin.net/news/weekend-poll-will-you-buy-windows-8

Why do you think developers would be any more favorable? Especially when they tend to use multiple monitors and more than a browser.

Developers love .NET, love C#, love XAML, love C++, love DirectX, love JS, and love HTML5. Most importantly, they love they can use these technologies together on Windows 8.


HAHAHAHAHAHA that sounds like one of Sinofsky's lame responses. Developers will love our totally awesome system! Why not let them choose then? If Metro in Windows 8 is so super awesome then why not let it be a choice?

Anyways this is what developers will do in response to Windows 8:

Win32 and .NET developers will continue working on in-house or web software that doesn't use metro.

Anyone who uses web technologies like HTML5 will continue to target the largest market which is the browser.

Mobile developers will continue to focus on iPhone and Android.

Windows 8 will piss off enterprise along with developers and power users. It's already happening actually, the "celebrity" Windows developers like Brad Wardell and Gabe Newell hate it. Windows 8 is just a bad idea.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: How to fix Windows 8
by Nelson on Tue 5th Jun 2012 15:42 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: How to fix Windows 8"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29


Go to the blogs and start clicking on registered users who are giving negative feedback. 10-1 says most of the positive feedback is coming from employees. I came across a discussion on Codeproject where the majority of users hated it.


Even if that was true (and let's just be serious, it's not) that doesn't automatically make the naysayers developers. Quit talking out of your ass.


Polls like this keep showing that the majority hate it:
http://www.neowin.net/news/weekend-poll-will-you-buy-windows-8


Again, how does that indicate that any are registered developers, as you claimed earlier?


Why do you think developers would be any more favorable? Especially when they tend to use multiple monitors and more than a browser.


Oh I see, so you WERE just talking out of your ass. Gotcha. The word for that is unsubstantiated bullshit, for future reference.


HAHAHAHAHAHA that sounds like one of Sinofsky's lame responses. Developers will love our totally awesome system! Why not let them choose then? If Metro in Windows 8 is so super awesome then why not let it be a choice?


There is a choice. Metro has a Desktop, and if you really want, 90% of the time you do not have to be in Metro. A fact lost on you, Thom, and a few others who like to be selective with facts.


Win32 and .NET developers will continue working on in-house or web software that doesn't use metro.


And miss out on properly monetizing an App Store which has the potential to reach the most customers on the planet? You know how much Windows 7 sales were right? If Windows 8 is even a fraction of that, the addressable market is huge.

I think you understate just how much a centralized store does for discoverability. Being able to transfer your .NET skills over into something you can cheaply profit off of is something very lucrative to developers.

Not all .NET dev shops are purely LOB shops.

Anyone who uses web technologies like HTML5 will continue to target the largest market which is the browser.


Same reasoning as above, you can with very little effort reuse your skillset and make money in an App store with a low barrier to entry.


Mobile developers will continue to focus on iPhone and Android.


Funny you say that, just today Windows Phone hit 100,000 apps. Four months faster than Android did in
the same timeframe.


Windows 8 will piss off enterprise along with developers and power users. It's already happening actually, the "celebrity" Windows developers like Brad Wardell and Gabe Newell hate it. Windows 8 is just a bad idea.


Thankfully, Windows 8 isn't engineered to cater to "celebrities" or people with tri monitor 27 inch setups. It's great and workable, but its not the primary usecase.

In fact, the same MSDN Blogs you love to cite show the reasoning for the changes quite clear. They show the dominant screen sizes, resolutions, and the fact that most new PC purchases are mobile laptops. The desktop is on the decline, so making it a primary usecase would be foolish.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: How to fix Windows 8
by Alfman on Tue 5th Jun 2012 20:14 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: How to fix Windows 8"
Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

Nelson,

"There is a choice. Metro has a Desktop, and if you really want, 90% of the time you do not have to be in Metro. A fact lost on you, Thom, and a few others who like to be selective with facts."

There is simply no good excuse for not giving us a choice to revert the desktop changes. Microsoft just lacks the confidence to let metro stand on it's own merit, which is why microsoft has been busy trying to make desktop workflows worse instead.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: How to fix Windows 8
by nt_jerkface on Wed 6th Jun 2012 02:42 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: How to fix Windows 8"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26


There is simply no good excuse for not giving us a choice to revert the desktop changes.


It should be noted that Nelson is avoiding that point just as much as Sinofsky. Why not let people choose? That question has been asked a hundred times on the Windows 8 blog and they keep pretending to not see it. Sinofsky is a coward and it wouldn't surprise me if Nelson is on the Windows team or somehow related to the success of Windows 8. The polls are showing that most people don't like it but they just keep burying their heads deeper in the sand.


http://www.neowin.net/news/weekend-poll-will-you-buy-windows-8

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: How to fix Windows 8
by Nelson on Wed 6th Jun 2012 03:02 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: How to fix Windows 8"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

As much fun as it'd probably be to be a part of the Windows Team, no, I'm afraid you're mistaken.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: How to fix Windows 8
by Nelson on Wed 6th Jun 2012 03:15 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: How to fix Windows 8"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

I think it's because Windows 8 is a transitional release. The Desktop will eventually be phased out of existence, so keeping it around would be conducive to extending its shelf life.

Metro is the future, and it's understandable that a lot of people in tech circles dislike it. The Desktop is one of those sacred cows, and it took a lot of courage for Microsoft to be as bold as they are, considering they could've just done minor updates to Windows 7.

As it stands, it is quite feasible to keep Metro as out of your way as possible, and the times which you see it daily is not great. The amount of whining in these comments would have you think otherwise, but in general, the Windows 7 desktop is largely preserved.

Maybe Metro 1.0 isn't your cup of tea, or others here, but I'm confident with a few revisions and when the industry shift is in fuller swing, the doubters will come around.

Just as Vista had to piss people off to introduce a lot of key new architectural changes like WDDM, Windows 8 will piss people off to pave the way for future releases.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: How to fix Windows 8
by hoak on Wed 6th Jun 2012 08:40 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: How to fix Windows 8"
hoak Member since:
2007-12-17

Nelson you continue to prattle like a technically illiterate paid PR Shill 'spokes hole' as if dislike of Metro was some universally irrational, religious experience, or Luddite perspective -- based on subjective personal preference like 'sacred cows' and 'tea'...

While that may be the case for some, there are many things Metro simply can not do as an OS interface/window manager that is a prerequisite for development, enterprise and production deployments of workstations and servers where real work must be performed. Simple established capabilities like being able to concurrently use more then one application without task switching so data may be monitored in real time in one application, and acted upon in another.

Your 'feelings' and 'beliefs' expounded on ad nauseam in countless zealous over-reaction across multiple threads has nothing to do with real form that follows function prerequisites for modern OS to even function in mission critical and production environments...

But then with your not having produced anything but market speak on Microsoft's behalf, I don't expect you understand...

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: How to fix Windows 8
by Nelson on Wed 6th Jun 2012 10:16 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: How to fix Windows 8"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

I get it, Microsoft pissed in your cornflakes.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: How to fix Windows 8
by Dave_K on Wed 6th Jun 2012 14:11 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: How to fix Windows 8"
Dave_K Member since:
2005-11-16

Maybe Metro 1.0 isn't your cup of tea, or others here, but I'm confident with a few revisions and when the industry shift is in fuller swing, the doubters will come around.


Can you seriously not see how fundamentally limited and restrictive Metro's design is?

I think you're right that Microsoft intend to phase out the desktop -- that's certainly what their actions indicate -- but that doesn't mean that they'll significantly change Metro. To compare with the desktop for functionality it would need to be radically overhauled, not just tweaked.

You're acting as if it's just a matter of getting used to a different way of working, when really Metro massively reduces the GUI's flexibility. This isn't fear of change, it's an unwillingness to use something that makes many tasks much slower and less efficient.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: How to fix Windows 8
by Nelson on Wed 6th Jun 2012 17:59 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: How to fix Windows 8"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Then don't use it. Obviously easier than arguing ad infinitum.

Reply Score: 2

Nelson misses the point
by MadRat on Tue 5th Jun 2012 12:45 UTC
MadRat
Member since:
2006-02-17

The whole reason that iOS and Android environments are successful is usability. They are far simpler to use that Windows anything. You can scoff and otherwise act like a pompous ass in these discussions, but the reality is that the majority of the market doesn't want what it sees in Windows anymore. And to think that Windows 8 - moving further away from the public's tastes - is an improvement, you are being disingenuous.

I am the IT guy at home and the fact is that very little productive activity gets done on any of our machines unless I am around. I can figure the shit out relatively easily. But why shouldn't it be intuitive in the first place?

The reality is that when Microsoft thumbed their noses at their own usability studies, instead letting engineers make the calls, they screwed the pooch with the designs. They need to get back to what the public wants and how they want it, even if that means dumbing it down.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Nelson misses the point
by nt_jerkface on Tue 5th Jun 2012 14:08 UTC in reply to "Nelson misses the point"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26


The reality is that when Microsoft thumbed their noses at their own usability studies, instead letting engineers make the calls, they screwed the pooch with the designs.


I agree with everything you said except for the part about engineers.

Engineers at Microsoft would not vote for Windows 8.

The problem is that Microsoft is ignoring usability studies and letting a Steve Jobs-Wannabe named Sinofsky make the calls. This is really the result of two people (Ballmer and Sinofsky) so please don't blame engineers in general.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Nelson misses the point
by Thom_Holwerda on Tue 5th Jun 2012 14:13 UTC in reply to "RE: Nelson misses the point"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

The thing is - Metro in and of itself a good idea on tablets, and maybe as an optional extra on laptops. For desktops, however, it would have made far more sense to offer an extended, desktop-oriented version of Metro, with proper windowing and multitasking, a proper dock/taskbar, etc - and keep classic the way it is now.

This would have made far more sense.

Edited 2012-06-05 14:19 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Nelson misses the point
by nt_jerkface on Tue 5th Jun 2012 14:29 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Nelson misses the point"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

This so far has been the general response which complicates things for Windows 8 defenders who keep trolling their "fear of change" line. Metro is fine on a touch screen but ripping out the start menu and forcing you into Metro is idiotic.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Nelson misses the point
by hoak on Wed 6th Jun 2012 01:01 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Nelson misses the point"
hoak Member since:
2007-12-17

Metro on the Windows desktop should be an application that runs Metro applications in a Windows...

Reply Score: 1

Comment by Luminair
by Luminair on Tue 5th Jun 2012 19:17 UTC
Luminair
Member since:
2007-03-30

poor thom typed all this up and it will never make a difference ;) sorry this is not the way microsoft works ;)

Reply Score: 0

RE: Comment by Luminair
by nt_jerkface on Wed 6th Jun 2012 03:03 UTC in reply to "Comment by Luminair"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

It's good for the economy to have Microsoft create jobs for people like Nelson. Thom is helping contribute to our gdp.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by Luminair
by Nelson on Wed 6th Jun 2012 03:08 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by Luminair"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

I am a paid .NET dev, but not for Microsoft :-) I guess in a way you're right.

You just think that because you've thrown Microsoft a bone every once in a while, that it gives you some sort of moral high ground or an authoritative stance on something which you obviously no absolutely nothing about.

The "I like Microsoft and even I cant stand this" line is really tiring. Quit using it to prop yourself up.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by Luminair
by Luminair on Wed 6th Jun 2012 05:16 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by Luminair"
Luminair Member since:
2007-03-30

I haven't read a single post in this thread but my own and these two, yet look at how easily I can tell that you two are like one of those car chases that crash through innocent shop fronts. Or the bar brawl that ruins somebody else's table. GET OUT!

Reply Score: 2

Think it's bad at 1920?
by deathshadow on Wed 6th Jun 2012 15:01 UTC
deathshadow
Member since:
2005-07-12

Try multiple displays -- all the cool things they added for desktop in Win7 are gone, and on multiple displays Metro falls apart; I particularly find the 'taskbar on every display' **** annoying, the 'blank all displays just because you went to the menu' **** even more annoying... let's just come right out and say it:

Windows 8 is basically Microsoft giving desktop users the finger! Now matter how technically sound it is, from a usability and interface standpoint it makes Windows 3.1 look good.

Though as someone pointed out not too long ago, what does one expect from a menu page that appears to be ripped off from AOL Games from 16 years ago.

http://obamapacman.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/AOL-1996-vs.-Micr...

NOT that I find the 'throw them in there in a random and constantly changing order, in a bunch of different sizes and eye-jarring inconsistent colors' particularly easy to use either... Just leaves me screaming at the display "For **** sake just show me an alphabetical list".

As to a site like OSNews -- it already sucks at 1920, windows 8 has jack **** to do with that. As I've said a billion times the past DECADE, Fixed width layout with fixed (px) metric fonts is a complete accessibility /FAIL/ -- %/EM, semi-fluid with static minimum and elastic maximum is what SHOULD be used, instead of the half-assed idiotic fixed width that I have to zoom 50% just to read the flow text -- that makes TEXTAREA and INPUT's useless since those ARE declared in %/EM.

In case you couldn't guess, I'm a large fonts/120dpi user. Don't even want to think about how useless this site will be when I get my 27" catleap next month.

Though it's not that useless for me, I have this user.css applied in Opera:
http://www.deathshadow.com/siteFixes/osnews.css

Which shoves dynamic fonts and semi-fluid layout down it's throat, so large font/120 dpi users like myself get a proper auto-expanding layout that isn't idiotically useless when you HAVE to zoom OR on smaller displays where the fixed width is too large.

Though again, with 129 validation errors on the main page it's not even HTML, it's gibberish -- gibberish like inline-level tags wrapping block level ones, nothing even remotely resembling semantic markup, nonexistant heading orders with DIV+SPAN doing H2's job... and a whole host of other "HTML what's that?" construction techniques.

Though I've been saying that for what, six years now? Eight? From a coding perspective it was embarrassingly bad THEN. As I said at the last re-skin the old site was actually more accessible and better written than this one... though both reek of "Semantics, what's that?"

Could be worse though, could be that idiotically stupid bloated HTML 5 garbage that's basically saying "Go ahead, sleaze it out any old way like it's still 1998" -- since that's who 5 is for, the people who until recently were slapping a tranny doctype on their HTML 3.2... now they can just slap 5 lip-service on it and still crap out pages 90's style.

Since it's sure as shine-ola not targeted at people who embraced STRICT, semantic markup, separation of presentation from content, or the dozen other genuine improvements in methodology of the past decade!

Edited 2012-06-06 15:12 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: Think it's bad at 1920?
by nt_jerkface on Fri 8th Jun 2012 00:47 UTC in reply to "Think it's bad at 1920?"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

Oh look Deathshadow doesn't like it either.

I bet Bill Gates hates it as well.

But I'm sure Nelson will tell us why the opinions of all these Windows users don't matter. Thurrott's first thumbs-down of a Microsoft product doesn't matter. Gabe Newell screaming about Windows 8 doesn't matter. It all doesn't matter, somewhere there is a magical island of Windows developers / power users who think it it is super awesome.

Reply Score: 2

The Upside
by hoak on Wed 6th Jun 2012 19:16 UTC
hoak
Member since:
2007-12-17

The upside of all of this is virtually all the Pundits even those like Foley, Thurrott and Dvorak that butter their bread with pro Microsoft journalism think Microsoft has truly 'screwed the pooch' with Metro on the desktop.

This will mean either a complete rethink of Metro as workstation (and server) user interface, perhaps including some truly innovative TWM design and automation, or, if not, new players encroaching on Microsft's enterprise cash cow...

Either way it will be interesting news for OSnews as there are some colorful Players ready to step off the sidelines with interesting and compelling platforms, some public and visible, some that are going to be a real surprise if the timing is right and/or certain parties get involved.

One thing is certain: Windows 8/Metro as a desktop OS is a stinker...

=O)

Edited 2012-06-06 19:19 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE: The Upside
by nt_jerkface on Fri 8th Jun 2012 00:51 UTC in reply to "The Upside"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

The upside of all of this is virtually all the Pundits even those like Foley, Thurrott and Dvorak that butter their bread with pro Microsoft journalism think Microsoft has truly 'screwed the pooch' with Metro on the desktop.


Yea you would think that might be a wake-up call, and people have been pointing this out but Sinofsky & company (including Nelson) have chosen to dig in just like Baghdad Bob. Sinofsky will have to have his legs blown off by a tank shell before his ego even considers that he might be slightly off on this one.

Edited 2012-06-08 00:52 UTC

Reply Score: 2

So I wonder...
by zima on Fri 8th Jun 2012 20:59 UTC
zima
Member since:
2005-07-06

Thom, is this the longest thread on OSNews? (I'm sure you have some tools to check it out quickly)

Kinda brings in perspective the whines about lack of "alternative OS" news on OSNews; this, what we have here, brings attention...
(actually, could be funny to make an article "Haiku desktop issues, and how to fix them" for comparative purposes, WRT comments dynamics ;) )

Reply Score: 2