Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 8th Jun 2012 17:15 UTC
Microsoft "A few weeks ago, we shared our plans for the Express editions of Visual Studio 2012. As we've worked to deliver the best experience with Visual Studio for our platforms with Windows 8, Windows Phone, and for Web and Windows Azure, we heard from our community that developers want to have for Windows desktop development the same great experience and access to the latest Visual Studio 2012 features at the Express level. Today, I'm happy to announce that we will add Visual Studio Express 2012 for Windows Desktop to the Visual Studio 2012 family. This will bring to the Visual Studio Express family significant new capabilities that we've made available in Visual Studio 2012 for building great desktop applications."
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Too early to kill the desktop, Microsoft
by reduz on Fri 8th Jun 2012 17:41 UTC
reduz
Member since:
2006-02-25

Try again in 10 years...

Reply Score: 10

twitterfire Member since:
2008-09-11

Try again in 10 years...


And now it's time to release the freaking Windows 8 desktop with a freaking Start Button. Or we will write our own Start Buttons, so there will be a madness, we will have hundreds of different Start Buttons and Start Menus.

Reply Score: 4

tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

"Try again in 10 years...


And now it's time to release the freaking Windows 8 desktop with a freaking Start Button. Or we will write our own Start Buttons, so there will be a madness, we will have hundreds of different Start Buttons and Start Menus.
"

Oh, for chrissakes, stop your whining. There's a free replacement for the Start menu.

http://www.stardock.com/products/start8/

Reply Score: 2

Just the beginning...
by kwan_e on Fri 8th Jun 2012 17:43 UTC
kwan_e
Member since:
2007-02-18

I'm pretty sure this kind of behaviour is one of the ten signs of the beginning of an abusive relationship.

Reply Score: 7

RE: Just the beginning...
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Fri 8th Jun 2012 18:49 UTC in reply to "Just the beginning..."
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

Wow, uhm, if you think this is the *beginning* of an abusive relationship you must have been in a Microsoft induced coma for a while.

Reply Score: 6

RE[2]: Just the beginning...
by Hiev on Fri 8th Jun 2012 19:48 UTC in reply to "RE: Just the beginning..."
Hiev Member since:
2005-09-27

You think MS is abusive?

you should know IBM and Oracle.

Edited 2012-06-08 19:48 UTC

Reply Score: 8

Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

We managed to escape both Oracle and IBM. That was easy. Try escaping MS or Cisco.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Just the beginning...
by kwan_e on Sat 9th Jun 2012 13:56 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Just the beginning..."
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

We managed to escape both Oracle and IBM. That was easy. Try escaping MS or Cisco.


"We" haven't escaped IBM at all. Cities are being made to use IBM.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Just the beginning...
by moondevil on Sun 10th Jun 2012 07:51 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Just the beginning..."
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

We managed to escape both Oracle and IBM.


Really?

Most enterprise projects make use of Oracle systems.

Many young geeks seem to think that IBM is a all Linux love, when in fact back in the 70's and early 80's it was as bad or worse than Microsoft.

On the time-sharing days, most languages were somehow even more tied to the OS than nowadays. IBM had a big responsibility on these state of affairs.

It is all about the money. There is no good or evil in big corporations.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Just the beginning...
by Andre on Sun 10th Jun 2012 10:10 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Just the beginning..."
Andre Member since:
2005-07-06

IBM about linux love? I never made that association.

If it's all about the money in big companies, doesn't that make them evil?

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Just the beginning...
by moondevil on Mon 11th Jun 2012 06:26 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Just the beginning..."
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

IBM about linux love? I never made that association.


Many people do, because IBM does contribute a lot to kernel development.

But like any company, they do it, because they want Linux to run properly on the servers they sell, that is all.

If it's all about the money in big companies, doesn't that make them evil?


Depends on one thinks about getting money. Anyway, when a company shows some geek love, by releasing open source stuff, that does not make them automatic good.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Just the beginning...
by kwan_e on Sat 9th Jun 2012 13:53 UTC in reply to "RE: Just the beginning..."
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

I didn't say it was the beginning. I'm saying, if you find those lists that are supposed to help women recognize when they're in an abusive relationship, this action of Microsoft's would surely be in that list as one of the early indicators.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Just the beginning...
by BrianH on Fri 8th Jun 2012 19:40 UTC in reply to "Just the beginning..."
BrianH Member since:
2005-07-06

They try to assert themselves, then are beaten into submission. If it's a sign of an abusive relationship, it looks like the abuse may be going in the other direction.

Reply Score: 6

RE[2]: Just the beginning...
by kwan_e on Sat 9th Jun 2012 13:55 UTC in reply to "RE: Just the beginning..."
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

They try to assert themselves, then are beaten into submission. If it's a sign of an abusive relationship, it looks like the abuse may be going in the other direction.


Except this is clearly not a case of them trying to assert themselves. It bears all the hallmarks of someone taking something crucial away to test the other party in the relationship. They're exercising their power and will try again.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Just the beginning...
by tomcat on Mon 11th Jun 2012 06:51 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Just the beginning..."
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

"They try to assert themselves, then are beaten into submission. If it's a sign of an abusive relationship, it looks like the abuse may be going in the other direction.


Except this is clearly not a case of them trying to assert themselves. It bears all the hallmarks of someone taking something crucial away to test the other party in the relationship. They're exercising their power and will try again.
"

The desktop is a shrinking market. That's why MS is pulling back on support for it. Seriously, if you were faced with a shrinking market, you would do the same.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Just the beginning...
by kwan_e on Mon 11th Jun 2012 15:12 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Just the beginning..."
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

The desktop is a shrinking market.


The desktop market seems to be shrinking because the market itself has expanded and diversified.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Just the beginning...
by tomcat on Mon 11th Jun 2012 17:43 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Just the beginning..."
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

"The desktop is a shrinking market.


The desktop market seems to be shrinking because the market itself has expanded and diversified.
"

I'm not sure how that distinction matters. The desktop is therefore shrinking... hence...

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Just the beginning...
by kwan_e on Mon 11th Jun 2012 23:22 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Just the beginning..."
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

"[q]The desktop is a shrinking market.


The desktop market seems to be shrinking because the market itself has expanded and diversified.
"

I'm not sure how that distinction matters. The desktop is therefore shrinking... hence... [/q]

It's not shrinking in the way that a company like Microsoft has to "get out of it".

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Just the beginning...
by tomcat on Tue 12th Jun 2012 16:30 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Just the beginning..."
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

"[q][q]The desktop is a shrinking market.


The desktop market seems to be shrinking because the market itself has expanded and diversified.
"

I'm not sure how that distinction matters. The desktop is therefore shrinking... hence... [/q]

It's not shrinking in the way that a company like Microsoft has to "get out of it". [/q]

I'm glad you aren't running their business -- because you'd run it into the ground.

Reply Score: 2

Why is the perjorative "cave" used?
by MollyC on Fri 8th Jun 2012 20:07 UTC
MollyC
Member since:
2006-07-04

A company does something, users say they don't like it, so the company accomdates them, and then those same users bash the company as "caving" (a perjorative) rather than "accomdating". Why use the perjorative to describe this? This is why companies are reluctant to accomodate demands, for nobody wants to be known as a "caver".

Reply Score: 6

MollyC Member since:
2006-07-04

"Microsoft Relents On Metro-Only Visual Studio Express"
http://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/06/08/1948211/microsoft-rel...

That's a lot better than "caves". There's something strange going on when slashdot is more reasonable regarding a Microsoft story than OSNews is. :p

Reply Score: 4

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Uh, you're reading way too much into this. "Cave" is the term you use when you... Succumb, cave to pressure. Microsoft ITSELF mentions the pressure from consumers... So caves is perfectly legit.

Don't overanalyze.

Reply Score: 3

bnolsen Member since:
2006-01-06

wow, microsoft pretending to listen to its customers. Someone must have treatened them somehow or perhaps they realized they might be driving a generation of progammers into a more android friendly toolchain.

Edited 2012-06-09 12:57 UTC

Reply Score: 3

Ha ha ha.
by UltraZelda64 on Fri 8th Jun 2012 20:23 UTC
UltraZelda64
Member since:
2006-12-05

That is all.

Reply Score: 2

Now bring back the start menu
by nt_jerkface on Fri 8th Jun 2012 20:36 UTC
nt_jerkface
Member since:
2009-08-26

And allow booting into the desktop.

If metro is so great then let people choose it. Good software doesn't need to be forced.

Oh and I just finished a post for Windows 8 defenders:
http://www.techbroil.com/2012/06/windows-8-sucks.html

Reply Score: 7

RE: Now bring back the start menu
by WorknMan on Fri 8th Jun 2012 23:36 UTC in reply to "Now bring back the start menu"
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

Oh and I just finished a post for Windows 8 defenders:
http://www.techbroil.com/2012/06/windows-8-sucks.html


Nice rant, except for the part about power users. We, my friend, are a dying breed. If you can appease the millions and millions of tech tards out there, I think that pissing off a small percentage of power users is an acceptable trade-off to these companies. Or, at least that is the only conclusion I can come up with, considering how they seem to be doing anything and everything they can to alienate us. It is what I call the 'war on power users'.

Hell, I would've been happy just to have tabs in Windows Explorer, but all we get is the f**king ribbon. Sure, that's not a problem at home, where I can use whatever I want, but at work, where the computers are on lock down, I'm pretty much forced to use whatever comes with the OS. At least they could've thrown us a small bone.

Edited 2012-06-08 23:38 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[10]: Sounds like a challenge.
by zima on Fri 15th Jun 2012 17:20 UTC in reply to "RE: Now bring back the start menu"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

the millions and millions of tech tards out there

If you'll keep thinking about and calling them like that, they will be happy to alienate you, seeing it as for their benefit.

(plus, you could be probably a "tech tard" in the eyes of some greybeard, or just somebody from different field of technology)

Reply Score: 2

Metro blows
by SonicMetalMan on Fri 8th Jun 2012 21:36 UTC
SonicMetalMan
Member since:
2009-05-25

Good move for Microsoft even if the decision was only made after feeling the heat from the devs. I think it is obvious that people are just not ready to wholly embrace the oddity that is Metro.

Reply Score: 4

common sense??
by TomF on Fri 8th Jun 2012 21:40 UTC
TomF
Member since:
2010-01-22

likely already posted here, still: http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2012/06/07/win8_enterprise_yesno/

so perhaps some MS managers do still have some plain old common sense and stupid decisions might be reverted ?

Tom UK

Reply Score: 2

Comment by AnythingButVista
by AnythingButVista on Fri 8th Jun 2012 21:48 UTC
AnythingButVista
Member since:
2008-08-27

The big problem with keeping VS Express 2012 a Metro-only product is that users would not have been able to target the much larger user base of Windws 7, XP and Vista. I'm glad that Microsoft came to their senses.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Comment by AnythingButVista
by MollyC on Fri 8th Jun 2012 23:24 UTC in reply to "Comment by AnythingButVista"
MollyC Member since:
2006-07-04

The big problem with keeping VS Express 2012 a Metro-only product is that users would not have been able to target the much larger user base of Windws 7, XP and Vista. I'm glad that Microsoft came to their senses.


I agree with this decision, but note that Microsoft was going to keep VS2010 Express available and supported anyway, and hobbyists could use those to target pre-Windows 8 OS.

VS11 Express does have the advantage that the languages are merged into one package. VS2010 Express separated C#, VB, and C++ whereas they all come in the same SKU with VS11 Express (though still it looks like there'll be separate Express SKUs for targetting Metro and Desktop (and Web, but that was already separate in VS2010 Express).

Reply Score: 3

Long Live Metro
by thavith_osn on Fri 8th Jun 2012 22:42 UTC
thavith_osn
Member since:
2005-07-11

:-)

Reply Score: 3

Windows Metro Edition
by fretinator on Fri 8th Jun 2012 23:10 UTC
fretinator
Member since:
2005-07-06

Why are so many people giving Windows Metro Edition a hard time? With a name like Windows M.E., it has to be good!

Reply Score: 11

RE: Windows Metro Edition
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Sat 9th Jun 2012 02:23 UTC in reply to "Windows Metro Edition"
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

Windows ME 2?

That's just too easy.....

Reply Score: 5

Title
by lopisaur on Sat 9th Jun 2012 09:21 UTC
lopisaur
Member since:
2006-02-27

Please remove that comma from the title.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Title
by Thom_Holwerda on Sat 9th Jun 2012 09:35 UTC in reply to "Title"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Please remove that comma from the title.


?

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Title
by adinas on Mon 11th Jun 2012 18:44 UTC in reply to "RE: Title"
adinas Member since:
2005-08-17

!

Reply Score: 2

It is a shame
by lucas_maximus on Sat 9th Jun 2012 09:26 UTC
lucas_maximus
Member since:
2009-08-18

New developers will learn the horrors of WinForms.

Reply Score: 2

RE: It is a shame
by Wafflez on Sun 10th Jun 2012 12:53 UTC in reply to "It is a shame"
Wafflez Member since:
2011-06-26

I'm pretty sure you can build WPF projects with Express version. And who hates XAML for GUI - layouts, animation, data binding, skinning is easy peasy with it. ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: It is a shame
by lucas_maximus on Sun 10th Jun 2012 15:50 UTC in reply to "RE: It is a shame"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

WPF isn't really WinForms

Reply Score: 2