Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 14th Jun 2012 02:49 UTC
Apple After a proper teardown, iFixit concludes that the new MacBook Pro has no user-serviceable parts at all, which some think is a really bad thing. I honestly don't know - I mean, my ZenBook isn't particularly user-serviceable either, and my smartphones, tablets, and whatnot are pretty much entirely soldered together as well. What do you guys make of this?
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should be made clearer
by Lion on Thu 14th Jun 2012 03:12 UTC
Lion
Member since:
2007-03-22

This is something that I could happily live with. But I would need to be aware of it first.
It shouldn't be up to organizations like ifixit to determine this and publish that info. In my experience with laptops it's assumed that the HDD and usually the RAM can be altered later (Personally I have upgraded both in the laptop on which I typed this) and foreknowledge of upgrade-ability or lack thereof would affect my purchasing decision. Either by causing me to spec higher or choose a different machine.

Reply Score: 7

RE: should be made clearer
by devnet on Thu 14th Jun 2012 03:36 UTC in reply to "should be made clearer"
devnet Member since:
2007-01-16

Dunno how I would feel about this.

If I bought a car that I HAD to get serviced at a specific place and that I couldn't take it anywhere else...nor could I open it up on the off chance I wanted to service it myself...see, I'd like to have the option. I don't necessarily feel the NEED to poke around inside the innards of laptop.

The thing that irritates me most about this is that they REQUIRE you to purchase a new laptop if you want to upgrade (or drop a hefty sum of cash to get the existing one done). I can't believe people would be willing to shell out exorbitant amounts of cash to have this done. It's like price gouging in my opinion...they know people will pay for it and so they MAKE THEM PAY.

The worst part about all of this is Apple turned itself into a vendor of 'Lifestyle' instead of hardware and software. In order to be 'cool' you have to use a Mac. It's funny, I'm a Linux hacker and I can run circles around most people in Linux AND Windows (since I'm a Windows system admin in my day job) and when my son's friends see that I don't have a Mac, they dismiss me as outdated, old, and someone who doesn't know computers. It's become associated with being cool, hip, smart, and in the know and that SUCKS...because it's a misrepresentation and fake. I think I hate this idea more than any other out there. Unfortunately, it's ingrained in people my sons age (he's in high school) and they're pretty much brain washed to accept this ideology as fact. Sad times when a 2200 dollar laptop is what separates cool/smart from not cool/dumb. I feel bad for poor people (and thus, subsequently, I feel bad for myself as I am middle class poor).

Reply Score: 12

RE[2]: should be made clearer
by zima on Thu 14th Jun 2012 04:05 UTC in reply to "RE: should be made clearer"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

WRT to the 2nd half of your post, devnet - I think I stopped endorsing (as in, recommending to others) Apple products, stopped considering them for purchase, not so much because of any moves by the company itself ...but to deliberately avoid being associated with, counted among the kind of people that you mention.

(but then, it's not nearly so widespread at my place, and Apple products are quite rare; which seemingly makes the fanatics more, well, fanatical...)

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: should be made clearer
by Hussein on Thu 14th Jun 2012 11:29 UTC in reply to "RE: should be made clearer"
Hussein Member since:
2008-11-22

It's called every modern car. At least the high end models you have near zero chance to service them yourself.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: should be made clearer
by devnet on Thu 14th Jun 2012 11:39 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: should be made clearer"
devnet Member since:
2007-01-16

It's odd then that everyone drives a high end car...wait, no they don't. But when it comes to Apples/Macs EVERYONE has it. So I brought the car comparison in for serviceability and opened that door but serviceability is where it ends. Not everyone drives a high end car in the real world but EVERYONE shells out 2 grand plus for a Macbook Pro.

I wonder how much of our plastic debt in the USA is owed to Apple? Heck, I'd buy Apple if it were affordable...I like Mac OSX...it's very nice. If they made nice laptops like the one I just got for 800 bucks (i7, 6gb ram+, 750gb hd) I'd spring.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: should be made clearer
by clasqm on Fri 15th Jun 2012 07:49 UTC in reply to "RE: should be made clearer"
clasqm Member since:
2010-09-23

Where you live, devnet, can you still buy cars with carburettors? How about points & condensors? Do they still come with hand cranks? Or do you drive a car with electronic fuel injection, electronic ignition and an electric starter just like everybody else? None of which is user-serviceable unless you have degrees in electrical engineering.

In fact, you DO have to take your Ford in to a Ford dealer for a service if you need anything more than an oil change and new spark plugs. The VW dealer won't have the correct diagnostic machine to connect to the electrics and exhaust pipe.

Anybody fix their own refrigerator when it packs up? Install your own TV cable? Grow all your own food? One out of three, maybe.

No doubt anyone who is sufficiently motivated can learn to do any ONE of those things. Just as we have taken the trouble to learn how computers fit together. But for every one of us, there are a thousand customers out there who don't care, who just want something they can switch on. And that's where the money is.

The amazing thing is how long it has taken for the computer industry to catch up with the rest of the world. Apple is ahead of the curve: five years from now, all computers will be built this way. Enjoy being able to tinker with your machines. It won't be much longer.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: should be made clearer
by devnet on Fri 15th Jun 2012 16:21 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: should be made clearer"
devnet Member since:
2007-01-16

Yeah IBM tried that years ago dude...it's ALREADY been done.

It failed then and it will fail again.

Reply Score: 1

RE: should be made clearer
by zima on Thu 14th Jun 2012 03:40 UTC in reply to "should be made clearer"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Hey, it's "just" 200 USD for the additional 8 GiB of RAM, at the time of purchase (probably closer to ~300 USD equivalent in my neck of the woods).

I suppose Apple can be only happy from blocking those who were always avoiding the "official" exorbitant RAM upgrade prices...

At least the baseline 8 GiB is quite high, so no big deal, for now (except, yeah, to those who won't realize they can't upgrade later; or when soldered RAM will become the norm in "budget" laptops; all while a late-in-life RAM upgrade is the most important thing in keeping an old machine usable - even a decade-old one can be perfectly fine, as long as it's maxed out on RAM)

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: should be made clearer
by yfph on Thu 14th Jun 2012 08:36 UTC in reply to "RE: should be made clearer"
yfph Member since:
2009-09-03

At least the baseline 8 GiB is quite high, so no big deal, for now (except, yeah, to those who won't realize they can't upgrade later; or when soldered RAM will become the norm in "budget" laptops; all while a late-in-life RAM upgrade is the most important thing in keeping an old machine usable - even a decade-old one can be perfectly fine, as long as it's maxed out on RAM)
Yeah but what happens if the RAM becomes faulty after expiration of Apple's typical 1-yr limited warranty?

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: should be made clearer
by jptros on Thu 14th Jun 2012 12:51 UTC in reply to "RE: should be made clearer"
jptros Member since:
2005-08-26

At least the baseline 8 GiB is quite high, so no big deal


One would think but it's not all that much with Lion and thus probably not the upcoming Mountain Lion either. 8 should be what any mac running Lion and up ships with because 4 (which is what my late '11 MBP came with) is quite disappointing.

Reply Score: 4

VenomousGecko
Member since:
2005-07-06

Just so there is no suspicion of being anti-Apple, I must say that I own a 2009 MacBook and a 2012 MacBook Pro. That being said, when you are forced to buy a completely different system and pay the outrageous prices for upgraded memory because the damn things are soldered to the board, we have crossed back into the bad old days. What if today I have no need for more than 8 GB but think, perhaps, I may need more in a year or so. There is NO way for me to upgrade! Guess that is my fault that I got a logic board with only 8 GB of RAM. Now, what do I do with this system that, with an inexpensive memory upgrade on any other system, does not have enough memory for me to do what I want to do with the system. Are we expected to throw it out or sell it on eBay in hopes that we get enough in return to buy a NEW MacBook Pro with 16 GB of Memory?

Edited 2012-06-14 03:47 UTC

Reply Score: 6

Hussein Member since:
2008-11-22

You might care but I don't. I will just get the specs I want when ordering. I never really upgrade my computers. To me thinness and lightness are of utmost importance.

Reply Score: 0

jptros Member since:
2005-08-26

I agree, I personally will not buy one of the new retina macbook pros or any other mac that comes with soldered ram unless I'm sh**ing dollar bills which I don't see happening in this life. As long as they have the older thicker MBP's I'll probably keep buying but I could care less about the high res display and a thinner 15" laptop in regards to what's at stake.

Reply Score: 2

Baseline models are getting better
by PlunderBunny on Thu 14th Jun 2012 03:30 UTC
PlunderBunny
Member since:
2009-02-19

Something I've noticed over the space of almost 20 years of using PCs and Macs: The baseline models are getting more powerful relative to my needs as a developer. I run Windows in a VM in order to use Visual Studio, while also running Mac apps. Whenever I bought a new Mac laptop, I used to have to order (at-least) a fast HD and extra ram, but looking at the specs for the new Retina MacBook Pro, if I bought one today, I wouldn't need to change anything (although the size of the SSD would be a bit tight).
So what I'm saying is that the trend towards less user-serviceable parts is (in part) driven by a decreasing need to replace components (at-least, for the purpose of making a computer more powerful when initially purchased).
Of course, I'm just talking about initial customisation, and that's different from keeping a computer up-to-date by replacing components. I've looked at the bottlenecks for compiling on my current (4.5 year old) MacBook Pro, and it's pretty evenly spread between memory/HD speed and CPU. The former two are upgradable, but the latter isn't, and is never going to be on a laptop. So I'm better off using my laptop for as long as I can with the components it has - even though they are upgradable, there's not much point in me doing so.

Reply Score: 2

Beta Member since:
2005-07-06

I used to have to order (at-least) a fast HD and extra ram, but looking at the specs for the new Retina MacBook Pro, if I bought one today, I wouldn't need to change anything


The graphics card is terrible if they’re hoping to push out native resolution 30fps gaming. However, most PC gaming is 60fps, so… you’d need to replace the whole thing in a year or two.

Reply Score: 2

How rich are you?
by quackalist on Thu 14th Jun 2012 03:32 UTC
quackalist
Member since:
2007-08-27

Suppose I could live with my kindle going AWOL after warranty but a Retina MacBook Pro is another matter altogether. But, if you can afford to throw it away...

Reply Score: 4

RE: How rich are you?
by smashIt on Thu 14th Jun 2012 07:54 UTC in reply to "How rich are you?"
smashIt Member since:
2005-07-06

Suppose I could live with my kindle going AWOL after warranty but a Retina MacBook Pro is another matter altogether. But, if you can afford to throw it away...


amazon at least gives you a hefty discount when you need to replace an out-of-waranty kindle (i payed 60€ instead of 160€)

i bet apple won't be so kind

Reply Score: 4

runjorel
Member since:
2009-02-09

I don't like it, but I am also the type of person that will purchase a system and wait a few years (or 2-3 product generations) before I completely purchase a whole new system. So after a year or two of age and ram and HDD prices go down, an upgrade in either/both of those areas can greatly extend the life of the machine. Some might say user-serviceable does not mean 'not-upgradeable' but you know with Apple they are going to charge a premium for replacement\upgrade parts higher than what you could find on Newegg, etc.

Having said all that though, I think Apple's target market is very much acquainted with upgraded machines coming out every year (or so) and purchasing a next gen or next-next-gen machine. It's not to say that Apple owners can't/don't want to upgrade their own machines...I just think they are more likely to take their machine to a 'Genius Bar' to get things fixed or upgraded than do things themselves especially when Apple Care is a relatively cheap extended warranty program. At least that's the way it appears to me when I see\hear people in the lines at the Genius Bars in every Apple store I've been to.

Overall though I think people who do not live close to an Apple Authorized Retailer/Repair center should consider that before they purchase.

Edited 2012-06-14 03:55 UTC

Reply Score: 2

yfph Member since:
2009-09-03

...Apple Care is a relatively cheap extended warranty program. At least that's the way it appears to me when I see\hear people in the lines at the Genius Bars in every Apple store I've been to.
How is $350 for Apple's extended warranty policy (AppleCare) considered cheap? How can this price be reconciled when other OEMs offer theirs $100-200 cheaper together with house call service?

Reply Score: 2

runjorel Member since:
2009-02-09

Well that's why I said relatively speaking and of course I should also say anecdotally speaking as well. I have not done a direct comparison. One time when I was shopping around for a new laptop, I thought AppleCare, while yes it cost more than other warranties, had a few more benefits that I personally preferred. Being able to take your computer to a store, talk to a person face-to-face and get same-day service or at least a same day quote on the upgrade/repair is preferable than over the phone support. But I think what did it for me in the end was that one manufacturer offered something like a $250 extended warranty for a $900 machine. Whereas the Apple machine I was looking at was $1500 and AppleCare was $300. The AppleCare extended warranty was 7% cheaper when comparing warranty to system price. As an aside, I went with Mac and I am glad I did. Not only did the machine last a long time but it had great resell value with the Apple Care included. I got way more money back on that sale than I would have with a PC.

My experience of course is not universal but I would argue there are times when AppleCare, despite costing more dollar-for-dollar, may be a better value than what the competition was offering. It's all relative to what one is in the market for.

Reply Score: 1

zima Member since:
2005-07-06

But I think what did it for me in the end was that one manufacturer offered something like a $250 extended warranty for a $900 machine. Whereas the Apple machine I was looking at was $1500 and AppleCare was $300. The AppleCare extended warranty was 7% cheaper when comparing warranty to system price.

Seriously? You came to the conclusion it was cheaper basing it on the inflated in the first place system price? (some fans quite often point out that Apple has decisively highest gross margins on their machines) Curious logic ;)

Reply Score: 3

Comment by Luminair
by Luminair on Thu 14th Jun 2012 03:57 UTC
Luminair
Member since:
2007-03-30

it is my recollection that apple was always an asshole like this. while apple products were "personal computers," when most of us think "PC" we really think "IBM PC Compatible." and all of those were user-serviceable.

so maybe the new not-user-serviceable macbook pro is "post-pc," or maybe it is an "appliance," or maybe it is just another stupid apple macintosh.

~~~

it's a nice design, but it takes power away from the user. you can debate whether the power lost is valuable, and whether it is justifiable. personally I think making something with non-standard parts that is hard to get into is just being an asshole.

Reply Score: 6

RE: Comment by Luminair
by Morgan on Thu 14th Jun 2012 06:45 UTC in reply to "Comment by Luminair"
Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

Simply put, it's an x86 iPad with a keyboard but no touch screen. And I'm very surprised about that last bit, I was fully expecting a touch screen MacBook this year.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by Luminair
by lazar on Thu 14th Jun 2012 09:59 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by Luminair"
lazar Member since:
2008-12-10

I was fully expecting a touch screen MacBook this year.


I wasn't at all, because that would render a MacBook Air, MacBook Pro and an iPad useless alltogether, you would instantly eliminate two out of three products and your diversification is gone.

Remember this stupid illustration? http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/gadgetlab/2010/10/Vertical-Multit...

Steve kept selling us that bullsh*t that we would get a gorilla arm when using a touchscreen vertically. What a nonsense!
As if every tablet is operated in horizontal position on a table!

I've personally been waiting for a good touchscreen-notebook since the Psion5-days. I might see it before I die ;-)

The new 'next-gen' MBPs seem to me like a piece of 'vista-hardware':

- still glossy display
- with my 2011 mbp I already carry an thunderbolt-2-HDMI adapater; but oh well - this new mbp now has a dedicated HDMI-out - what do I do with my old adapter - toss it away!!! Instead I buy that thunderbolt-2-LAN-adapter - *because* - what I surprise - the ethernet-port is gone

-same holds true for my 3 MagSafe chargers (I like to have one at home, one at work and one in the car). If I ever buy another mbp, I will probably have to either throw them away or try to manipulate them with a file in orther to transform them into MagSafe2-plugs.

As german it-news-site Heise put it: Adapters are the new ink-cartridges.

On my 1 year and 3 months MBP I just recently discovered that the camera und ambient ligth sensor stopped working? Why so soon? I never dropped it or spilled liquid on it.
And now no user servicable parts and you're are pricing the device up ? - Well thanks!

I can totally afford a new 'next-gen' MBP, but am refusing to burn 2000$/€ in 15 months and then needing to buy a new one. I hate planned obsolency. And Ap*le does this probably better than anyone else.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Comment by Luminair
by zima on Thu 14th Jun 2012 10:09 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by Luminair"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

I'm very surprised about that last bit, I was fully expecting a touch screen MacBook this year.

I wasn't; at the least, because that would be probably a sort of competition & bad PR for the iPad - and I guess Apple wants to fully exploit the momentum of that one.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by Luminair
by runjorel on Thu 14th Jun 2012 14:07 UTC in reply to "Comment by Luminair"
runjorel Member since:
2009-02-09

Keyword: Appliance. I feel that's where 'post-PCs' are going.

Edited 2012-06-14 14:11 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by Luminair
by No it isnt on Thu 14th Jun 2012 22:08 UTC in reply to "Comment by Luminair"
No it isnt Member since:
2005-11-14

My ancient Powerbook G3 was actually very easy to service. Ah, some parts, like the tiny PRAM battery, were pretty hard to get to, but it popped out the keyboard easily, and by careful design.

Then again, already the first Mac was designed to be a locked-down, evil 1984 type machine. Think ironic.

Reply Score: 3

Non-Replaceable Batteries Are BAD
by looncraz on Thu 14th Jun 2012 03:57 UTC
looncraz
Member since:
2005-07-24

The battery, being glued in, is a bad BAD BAD thing! To make matters worse, they glued the battery in such a way to forbid touch-pad replacement as well.

This will be one machine I would never let anyone (except my worst enemies) buy... Might be nice, but it that battery will give out before the machine is obsolete... and the track-pad will eventually become worn... that is, unless you are spending thousands of dollars for a lap-top like this just to check your email occasionally... and you always have it plugged in.... (then WHY IN HADES BUY A LAPTOP??!?!?).

Oh well, a fool and his money are soon parted.

--The loon

Reply Score: 10

Hussein Member since:
2008-11-22

They last 1000 cycles. They last a really long time and when they need to be replaced Apple can replace them for you.

Reply Score: 1

nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

OH CAN THEY? WE SHOULD BE SO GRATEFUL.

With my Asus I can buy a battery on ebay for $20 and slap it in without having to go to the creepy pastel cult store. I'm guessing their price will be more than $20 given how much my SO had to pay for an iPhone wall adapter.

I can also easily replace the hard drive if it fails.

Apple sucks.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by Dekonega
by Dekonega on Thu 14th Jun 2012 03:59 UTC
Dekonega
Member since:
2009-07-28

This is bullshit. (I'm a current owner of the last good MacBook Pro, the 2008 late model, last one to come with user changeable battery.) Who cares about the small size and fancy new display, if you cannot attain the most important feature with it you need laptop for. Mobility is really important. I think that device isn't a mobile device if you cannot change its battery by yourself. It's a hipster toy at that point.

Edited 2012-06-14 04:01 UTC

Reply Score: 9

RE: Comment by Dekonega
by bert64 on Sat 16th Jun 2012 09:14 UTC in reply to "Comment by Dekonega"
bert64 Member since:
2007-04-23

Yes the model you have was ideal, it had the new unibody design but the battery and hard drive were accessible behind a panel on the bottom, although the panel never seemed to quite fit perfectly.

Ideally i would like the 17" macbook pro, with the case that provides easy access to hdd & battery, ram on dimms (not so much of a problem if you need a screwdriver to access the ram), a current version cpu/gpu, and a high res screen.

As it stands now, when i come to upgrade my 2009 17" macbook pro i will have to look at alternative vendors and move to linux.

Reply Score: 2

Depends
by leos on Thu 14th Jun 2012 05:48 UTC
leos
Member since:
2005-09-21

In general, a lack of user serviceability doesn't really bother me. Batteries are not what they used to be. The lithium polymer batteries last a long time and aren't like the batteries of old that required replacing after 2 years.

That said, it is somewhat ridiculous that the ram is not replaceable. I don't care about upgrading anything in my iMac, but I did up the ram from 4GB to 8GB. In 3 years I bet we will be wanting 16 and the people with these MacBooks will be annoyed. Better to go with the regular one for now and wait for the second gen.

Reply Score: 3

Comment by Shane
by Shane on Thu 14th Jun 2012 05:52 UTC
Shane
Member since:
2005-07-06

Doesn't bother me. In the past I might have liked being able to carry a spare battery and swapping it in for extended use, but these days we're getting twice the battery life on these new machines.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Comment by Shane
by stabbyjones on Thu 14th Jun 2012 21:21 UTC in reply to "Comment by Shane"
stabbyjones Member since:
2008-04-15

See how long that lasts in 18 months. Batteries lose at a minimum <50% capacity within that time making these things essentially useless after that period.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by Shane
by Shane on Fri 15th Jun 2012 00:59 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by Shane"
Shane Member since:
2005-07-06

It's been lasting fine thank you very much. 2 years and still going strong.

But of course, if you have problems, you can always bring the laptop back and get the battery replaced. It's just that you can't do it yourself.

Reply Score: 2

Confused?
by spiderman on Thu 14th Jun 2012 06:02 UTC
spiderman
Member since:
2008-10-23

I honestly don't know - I mean, my ZenBook isn't particularly user-serviceable either, and my smartphones, tablets, and whatnot are pretty much entirely soldered together as well. What do you guys make of this?

I do know so let me get this straight:
user-serviceable > not user serviceable. Not user serviceable is a con. End of story.
Why you are getting confused about it is beyond me.

Edited 2012-06-14 06:12 UTC

Reply Score: 5

RE: Confused?
by l3v1 on Thu 14th Jun 2012 06:34 UTC in reply to "Confused?"
l3v1 Member since:
2005-07-06

My thoughts exactly.

I mean, my ZenBook isn't particularly user-serviceable either


So, if more do it, that makes it ok? I don't think so. Yet, this again is similar to the recent regular users vs. advanced users in OS- and developer-related matters. Here again we only see that it's the majority that counts, and the majority simply doesn't know and/or doesn't care about servicability, hdd/ram extentions, battery changes (bye-bye travelling with +1 battery with these laptops). However, there are still nice laptops out there that won't lock you out entirely, so again, those interested should vote with their money.

and my smartphones, tablets, and whatnot are pretty much entirely soldered together as well


I'm sorry but that's a different area. By the time one would think about extending ram or onboard storage in a phone (I mean if it would be even possible) either the phone dies (you really have to be lucky to find a long lasting one these days) or you'll buy a new one anyway. Plus, at least in [most] phones you can at least change the battery and the microsd easily, and from this point of view they are more friendly than the closed-up ultrabooks.

Edited 2012-06-14 06:34 UTC

Reply Score: 3

Sounds like a challenge.
by rexstuff on Thu 14th Jun 2012 06:50 UTC
rexstuff
Member since:
2007-04-06

Pfft - I tend to view "not user serviceable" the same way I view "non-flammable": as a challenge.

I've had my 4,1 MBP apart a couple of times. I wouldn't recommend it, Apple sure doesn't make it easy, but it can be done, and I've fixed one or two things. Probably voided my warranty, but I'm sure that was dead long ago.

I pine for the old days of cars and computers, where one could be stripped down and rebuilt with nothing more than a leatherman multi-tool. There was something great about being able to service your machines yourself, a sense of independence and importance, that you really knew your machine and how you were using it.

Nowadays, you can barely change the oil in a modern car without being a liscenced mechanic; computers are headed the same way, I'm afraid.

That's what I love about my 1984 Honda motorcycle; there's nothing on there I can't fix myself, with enough time and patience ;) I have to, for that matter. Most shops won't even look at things that old anymore. How are we going to keep anything running when no-one knows how they work anymore? Are we doomed to discard and upgrade? That's what Apple would love, I'm sure.

Edited 2012-06-14 06:52 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: Sounds like a challenge.
by zima on Thu 14th Jun 2012 07:55 UTC in reply to "Sounds like a challenge."
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

I pine for the old days of cars and computers, where one could be stripped down and rebuilt with nothing more than a leatherman multi-tool. There was something great about being able to service your machines yourself, a sense of independence and importance, that you really knew your machine and how you were using it.

...and about them being less efficient, more polluting, notably less reliable overall? (also without complex active safety systems, mostly in brakes; or without delicate passive safety systems that must never be triggered inadvertently - come on, there are essentially six explosive charges inside the cabin of my car, which is probably at most fairly average at that, being decade+ old; you really don't want unlicensed people messing around those)

Just saying; don't look at the past through too rosy glasses.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Sounds like a challenge.
by lucas_maximus on Thu 14th Jun 2012 08:40 UTC in reply to "RE: Sounds like a challenge."
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Less reliable is a bit of a misnomer.

I have a "unreliable" 1970s Peugeot Sports Tourer Bicycle, every maintenence job can be done via allen keys, screwdriver and a hammer.

No it isn't as fast a modern push bike, it isn't a light, but it doesn't break and nobody will steal it because it isn't worth anything.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Sounds like a challenge.
by zima on Thu 14th Jun 2012 09:15 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Sounds like a challenge."
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Oh come on, that wasn't really about bicycles... ;) they hardly changed in the last 4 decades, have attained close to optimal form quite some time ago. Also no new tools required.

And BTW, it's not at all clear which of us has a more ghetto bike from the 1970s: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Romet_Wagant (my Wagant has more basic dérailleur lever and more "classic" front lamp; it spent a decade+ in few sheds, in pieces)

Yeah, there are bicycles from same crazy materials and so on - but people in general don't really choose those; just like they don't drive around in rally cars ...even (hm, especially) if they do drive or ride in one at rallies.

Reply Score: 2

lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

I think we were discussing the relevant merits of being able to fix your own stuff.

And BTW, it's not at all clear which of us has a more ghetto bike from the 1970s: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Romet_Wagant (my Wagant has more basic dérailleur lever and more "classic" front lamp; it spent a decade+ in few sheds, in pieces)


http://www.thedirtieduckie.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/2011-06-0...

My Pug not longer looks like that. I refitted it with a 9 speed shimano block, a newer set of wheels and a campagnolo 10 centaur crankset.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Sounds like a challenge.
by zima on Thu 14th Jun 2012 10:44 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Sounds like a challenge."
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Or about "the old days of cars and computers" (or even more exclusive focus on cars in my post)...

Anyway - curious, the headlamp casing on that photo has pretty much the same shape as in mine, and also the rack style is closer than any of those Wagants from Commons.
But I wonder how one pedals on this one ;p

(and yeah, yours would definitely seem less ghetto - non-original in mine is only rear tire, both bladders, and saddle; the latter only because the original was painful on longish rides)

Edited 2012-06-14 10:50 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Sounds like a challenge.
by spiderman on Thu 14th Jun 2012 09:14 UTC in reply to "RE: Sounds like a challenge."
spiderman Member since:
2008-10-23

I think he didn't want to say he missed the pollution or the reliability. He just said he missed the serviceability.
Pollution is a con.
Reliability is a pro.
Serviceability is a pro.
I take this macbook over a 486DX2-33 of course, but if there was 2 models with same look, same price, same content, one serviceable and the other not,only an idiot would take the inferior model.
I think what he meant was that there has been a regression in that area.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Sounds like a challenge.
by zima on Thu 14th Jun 2012 09:23 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Sounds like a challenge."
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

All I meant: keep things in perspective - it's not like we didn't get very nice benefits in exchange for lower serviceability, a result of technology advancement (that was the goal - not complexity for the sake of it, not limited serviceability itself).

People too often forget that the past wasn't, in fact, better; start to believe, step by step, in myths about it.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Sounds like a challenge.
by spiderman on Thu 14th Jun 2012 11:02 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Sounds like a challenge."
spiderman Member since:
2008-10-23

Well, I don't think we got any benefit in exchange of serviceability. There is technology advancement and we all benefit from that, but the lack of serviceability is not an effect of this. It is an effect of a design decision. It is removed by design to fulfill some commercial requirements. It is defective by design. The screw is designed to not be standard. This is not a result of any technology advancement. They could have provided the exact same technology and provide a standard screw instead and that would even cost less. They went out of their way to make the product not user serviceable.

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: Sounds like a challenge.
by zima on Thu 14th Jun 2012 11:40 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Sounds like a challenge."
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Oh, in the case of this specific product, sure (still, partly, most of its integration does give benefits) - but it's just not exactly the implied "good old days versus rotten now".

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Sounds like a challenge.
by rexstuff on Thu 14th Jun 2012 22:37 UTC in reply to "RE: Sounds like a challenge."
rexstuff Member since:
2007-04-06

I am not so sure that those are mutually exclusive.

Yes, in addition to being faster, lighter, stronger, etc, we lost the ability to do the service ourselves, but I'm not sure that that has to be the case.

Why can't we build a car or computer that is user-serviceable while still making use of the modern engineering that gave us these benefits?

For instance, I may not be able to repair an EFI module the same way I could a carbuerrator, granted, but why can't I replace it?

A modern car with user serviceability in mind may not be quite as fast or efficient or even as cheap, but I wonder if there wouldn't be a market for it...

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Sounds like a challenge.
by zima on Fri 15th Jun 2012 01:53 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Sounds like a challenge."
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Why can't we build a car or computer that is user-serviceable while still making use of the modern engineering that gave us these benefits?

Because we don't want to pay for it. Such "simple" things as reliable (non-trained-user-reliable) connectors maintaining size, or withstanding environmental (as in, in the engine compartment) conditions ...it would add up. Plus there's the reliability of computerised control in safety-critical road conditions.

You most likely wouldn't pay for it:

A modern car with user serviceability in mind may not be quite as fast or efficient or even as cheap, but I wonder if there wouldn't be a market for it...

You wonder, not declare you would buy it? Plus, really, there is a market for it - notably in the form of military-oriented vehicles (but it's easy to get civilian versions), which are roughly that.
Oh yeah, and they tend to be quite expensive (well, unless you're willing to settle for something not very modern and without many comforts, like Niva or UAZ-452; closest outside such heritage is possibly Dacia Logan or Tata Nano, even quite cheap, but many people simply laugh at them...)


And really, keep things in perspective - yes, sure, it was a good thing that you were able to repair a car yourself back in the day, but mostly because they broke much more often in the first place (and actually, one has to wonder if a major cause of that were sub-standard repairs)

Edited 2012-06-15 02:12 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Sounds like a challenge.
by Alfman on Fri 15th Jun 2012 03:11 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Sounds like a challenge."
Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

zima,

I try to fix simple things like replacing a battery and lamps on the car myself. This is because the car mechanic is able to charge more for his time than I can charge for mine. I might not think about self-serviceability when buying a car, but I'd certainly be annoyed if I learned that I couldn't self service it due to manufacture locks.

I think the same applies to laptops, it's truly pathetic that batteries and ram can't be self serviced, although I understand the manufacturer's motivation for doing it when they can get away with it.

I may not be representative, but then again I don't think self-servicing is as niche as some people are making it out to be.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Sounds like a challenge.
by zima on Fri 15th Jun 2012 04:37 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Sounds like a challenge."
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

...
People, it's not about all or nothing.

This was about "don't look at the past through too rosy glasses" and http://www.osnews.com/permalink?521996 directed at the quote here http://www.osnews.com/permalink?521984
I don't pine for the old days, those are largely myths (and sense/feelings - while, as I pointed just above, perhaps those self-repairs contributed to poor reliability).
Maybe it's something about me being from a place where the automotive state-of-the-art was basically frozen for ~2 decades (70s-90s), with most people self-servicing, so I remember quite well the "virtues" of that style of doing things... to which nobody really wants to return.
Most people don't want total serviceability; don't expect them to pay for that (how it will add up) in mass-market cars, that's all.

My father-in-law of sorts had 2x Nissan Navara and a Lada Niva at his disposal. Navaras were great, doing their job without objection, and pleasant to drive. As for the Niva... every time I visited, it happened to be broken.


Also, past computers were generally quite a bit more expensive, denying all but the very few access to them - or leaving us to use 8bit micros well into the 90s.
(oh sure, not like MBP is cheap :p - but I'm talking in general; and yes, MBP seems to go a bit too far ...but, perhaps it's partly "too soon" - again in larger picture - with the hardware becoming ever more "good enough" & inexpensive (RPi?) and the number of chips ever decreasing: not a long time ago a separate FPU was a good idea)


And the benefits of modern cars, mentioned in few places above, have hardly anything to do with batteries or lamps, Alfman ;P (more with ECUs, where you don't mess; NVM sensitive safety systems) - you mostly don't self-service it, anyway, just rare little things (BTW, I'm quite regularly blinded by misaligned headlamps, don't tell me you aren't - I wonder why they are so poorly adjusted...)


Ultimately, it's progress. We gradually cast aside "solved" issues so we can focus on new ones.
You likely don't really grow your food, bake your bread, manually set fire to coal furnace (one per room), make your clothes, have a sewing machine (most of those largely the rule here less than 2 decades ago BTW)
It often seems like cars and computers are the popular "manly" or "geeky" field to praise tradition ...while ignoring it in most other areas, anyway.

Edited 2012-06-15 04:43 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Sounds like a challenge.
by Alfman on Fri 15th Jun 2012 05:53 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Sounds like a challenge."
Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

zima,

Coal? Baking? Sewing? Progress? I don't really see how anything your talking about relates to the topic of user serviceable components. I'm not convinced that non-serviceable components is progress - particularly with things like batteries. Batteries have a short half-life, making them non-replacable seems like a planned obsolescence scheme to me.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Sounds like a challenge.
by zima on Fri 15th Jun 2012 06:34 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Sounds like a challenge."
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

I threw it in after "ultimately" and at the very end for a reason... I suppose you agree with things before it. Though you apparently missed my displeasure with high computer costs (to which planned obsolescence can easily contribute); or particularly "MBP seems to go a bit too far ...but, perhaps it's partly "too soon" - again in larger picture" (yeah, too far with batteries for example, for ICs it's perhaps just premature); or http://www.osnews.com/permalink?521996

But yeah, hands on heating, making your own food or clothes; not the convenient (and not very user-serviceable) central or oil heating, or the whole chain supportive of "consumerism" with food and clothes.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Sounds like a challenge.
by rexstuff on Fri 15th Jun 2012 06:22 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Sounds like a challenge."
rexstuff Member since:
2007-04-06

If my glasses are too rose-coloured, mehtinks yours are maybe too tinged with cynicism.

It is certainly doable, and I think not as difficult as you imagine it. I think there are some people who would see the value of a self-serviceable car; perhaps not enough to make it marketably viable, but there are people who would pay for the ability to repair and *tinker* with their vehicles. If there weren't people like that, things like Linux and Arduinos and Raspberry Pis wouldn't exist at all.

So yes, I might buy it, if it could be made at not a significant premium, which I think it could be, if there was sufficient demand.

And I don't think that the old self-serviceable cars were really THAT unreliable. In fact, I tend to think that when the trend toward non-user-servicable vehicles took off in the 80s is when we really started to see a decline in quality and reliability. Don't make the mistake of comparing a 2010s vehicle with one from the 60s and concluding that user serviceability makes cars unreliable. That's hardly a fair comparison.

Nor am I suggesting to get rid of things like computerized safety controls, only to make them accessible to the amateur technician. Many modern cars are basically designed to lock out all but the dealer-certified mechanics; not even that modern, I remember I had a 94 Sable that required special, impossible to find tools to do even the most basic maintainance tasks.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Sounds like a challenge.
by zima on Fri 15th Jun 2012 07:08 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Sounds like a challenge."
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

I didn't say it's not doable.* Just... who's going to pay for it? (while there are cars roughly following the priorities you cherish; just often markedly more expensive due to being built very solidly; or clearly targeting, like that Dacia, more ~impoverished areas - hence laughed at in "developed" places; why not get such?)

And, well, I do think they were THAT unreliable. Perhaps because I was really surrounded by such cars much longer ( http://www.osnews.com/permalink?522136 ), and even more user-maintained, *tinkered* with ...probably often more unreliable because of it.
Now I ride a 13+ years old C-segment car: virtually flawless, just scheduled maintenance and more recently one small hiccup with the engine (resolved within an hour in the service) - which seems to be more or less the rule nowadays. 2-3 decades ago it would be an exception.


Call it cynicism if you like ...but may I just point out that ~"old times were better, new things are destroying proper order" examples are known since the beginning of written word.
Human memory is generally very poor, despite our beliefs to the contrary (in controlled experiments, eyewitness identification is basically no better than chance ...and yet, look how frighteningly often we believe in it and with serious consequences; also, go through a list of cognitive biases)

computerized safety controls, only to make them accessible to the amateur technician.

Seriously? Anything but those.

*Note: I'm also not saying we're doing things in the most optimal way now - I actually think something very far from it. But it's better.

Edited 2012-06-15 07:10 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Sounds like a challenge.
by clasqm on Fri 15th Jun 2012 08:09 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Sounds like a challenge."
clasqm Member since:
2010-09-23

... closest outside such heritage is possibly Dacia Logan ..., even quite cheap, but many people simply laugh at them...)


Got one, actually (called a Renault where I live). It's got EFI, electric windows, ABS ... Not particularly user-servicable.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Sounds like a challenge.
by zima on Fri 15th Jun 2012 09:08 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Sounds like a challenge."
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Well you don't have "modern" without such (it's not about absolutes one way or the other). Still, Logan is quite crude (in a good sense) and seems tougher like that, not loaded with gadgets - plus, doesn't it use more mature among Renault platforms? (so well known, issues worked out; even a bit flat rated engines?)
Felt right to include it, from the contact I had.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Sounds like a challenge.
by bert64 on Sat 16th Jun 2012 09:16 UTC in reply to "Sounds like a challenge."
bert64 Member since:
2007-04-23

The only difficulty with cars, is that you need specialist equipment and plenty of space for some things like removing the engine...

Anyone could dismantle a computer with little more than a screwdriver, so it is much easier to get into.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by MOS6510
by MOS6510 on Thu 14th Jun 2012 07:07 UTC
MOS6510
Member since:
2011-05-12

I think they should at least offer an extended warranty to compensate for not being able to fix anything once it breaks down.

Four or maybe five years.

Or offer a discount if you return it when buying a new one, be it broken or not.

Reply Score: 2

Well
by BeamishBoy on Thu 14th Jun 2012 07:22 UTC
BeamishBoy
Member since:
2010-10-27

I accept that using a laptop involves a number of compromises over having access to a desktop. However, one thing I absolutely demand is that the battery be replaceable. I've had terrible experiences with Apple hardware in the past (five logic board failures in the space of three years) so I tend to stick to Thinkpads. I typically need to replace batteries every eighteen months so a non-replaceable battery is an absolute deal killer for me.

I can see how it makes sense from Apple's perspective but there's no way I'd buy a laptop without a replaceable battery simply because I have to travel so much between London and Chicago for work. The ability to pop a new battery in on a long flight is an absolute necessity.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Well
by SHatfield on Thu 14th Jun 2012 09:38 UTC in reply to "Well"
SHatfield Member since:
2006-12-23

I worked at an investment company who had a contract with Lenovo to only purchase Thinkpads. This was 5 years ago, so it is likely different now, but I had 4 Thinkpads in 5 months. Bad display, bad fan caused overheating, bad keyboard that ended up poking something in the logic board and finally one that I could kind of live with. You see, its Ethernet port was bad on the laptop itself, but I only had Ethernet plugged in when it was docked, so I could live with the defect. These were all brand new machines.

My apple MBP 5,1, on the other hand, had a battery issue in year 3 that Apple replaced for free even though it was out of warranty. My wife still uses it every day and I just bought a brand new one that has been perfect.

I'm glad that your experience has not been my experience, since it was the company footing the bill for all those defective Thinkpads.

Reply Score: 1

RAM Reseat
by Moredhas on Thu 14th Jun 2012 09:01 UTC
Moredhas
Member since:
2008-04-10

You can solder in and glue down as many things as you want, but RAM should be inviolate. This machine makes the most basic and rudimentary fix for a computer a bin job if it happens to be a day out of warranty. If you've ever powered on your computer to nothing but a black screen and fan noise, chances are, removing and reinserting the RAM modules would fix that problem. If you have to do it more than once in a few months, it might be indicative of a larger problem. If that ever happens to a 2012 Macbook, it means throwing it in the bin.

Reply Score: 2

RE: RAM Reseat
by bhtooefr on Thu 14th Jun 2012 10:24 UTC in reply to "RAM Reseat"
bhtooefr Member since:
2009-02-19

To be fair, if you have problems that are fixed due to removing and reinstalling the RAM, that's not the RAM failing, that's the interconnect between the RAM module and the motherboard (either the pins on the module, or an issue with the SODIMM or DIMM slot).

So, because there is no interconnect other than solder (and that solder would be there on SODIMMs anyway), it'll be more reliable there.

Not a fan of what they've done (although, damnit, they're going to get a sale to me because of DAT DISPLAY (cue "DAT ASS" image macro)), but that's not a valid reason to oppose it.

Reply Score: 2

minimum
by martijn on Thu 14th Jun 2012 09:10 UTC
martijn
Member since:
2010-11-06

At the very least, it should be possible to replace the battery, memory and hardisk (upgrade to SSD) of a laptop. And it had to be absolutely possible or unneccessary to clean the fan.
Last years, I replaced a broken HD, a battery, changed a keyboard, fixed a dead mainboard (in an oven ;) ), fixed a cable from mainboard to the display. This in three different laptops from HP (HD and keyboard), Toshiba (mainboard and battery) and Asus (vga connection). The ability to fix such things yourself is big pre for me. Normally I use my hardware for years, since linux allows you to do that and be up to date. This is a big money saver.
Well, I guess I am not the target audience for Apple.

Reply Score: 2

Apple on the way down
by moondevil on Thu 14th Jun 2012 09:35 UTC
moondevil
Member since:
2005-07-08

If Apple continues this way, I predict in 5 years time it will be selling only iPhones, iPads, iTouch, if they are still able to keep up to the competition by their own merit without bogus patent claims.

Reply Score: 4

Pro Device
by REM2000 on Thu 14th Jun 2012 10:42 UTC
REM2000
Member since:
2006-07-25

I don't think this is much of a problem, the core of the MacBook Pro is the Pro. This device is meant for professionals, photographers, video editors, developers etc.. Now these people usually keep the machine for 3 years as it's generally the length of the warranty and these people need the machines covered as they are tools to get their work done and to bring in the pounds/dollars currency.

Personally i would like the device to be user servicable but i would have to way up the option of having a device thats razer thin, light and has a 7 hour battery over one where i could replace the hard disk, probably only once during the lifetime of the device.

I own a MacBook and a Powerbook. The powerbook only allowed you to change the RAM the macbook was a lot better and allowed for the hard disk and the ram to be replaced, i have really only done this once, upped the RAM to the limit and brought a 500GB 7200RPM HDD. The macbook is 6 years old if i wanted more life out of it, i would probably have to replace it.

Reply Score: 2

Out of luck with my powerbook 17
by hashnet on Thu 14th Jun 2012 11:25 UTC
hashnet
Member since:
2005-11-15

My '2003 PowerBook clock battery, is now failing, making the clock reset to 1970 (as per unix date command) each time it is off main battery and power cord.
I thought, no biggie, I'll just swap it. Thing is, it is encased in a module, termed "backup battery board" that also has a side USB port.
I'll have to desolder/solder the new battery.

Still, for a component that's 9 year old, it's what I call user-serviceable!

Oddly enough, my TiBook '2001 is still chugging along happily ;)

Reply Score: 1

acobar Member since:
2005-11-15

Why don't you just sync by ntp on startup? This is a thing I do on every machine I install, be it with a good RTC or not.

Reply Score: 3

hashnet Member since:
2005-11-15

Exactly what I'm doing until 'the fix'!

Reply Score: 1

Comment by tomchr
by tomchr on Thu 14th Jun 2012 12:06 UTC
tomchr
Member since:
2009-02-01

Yup, we're heading back to the proprietary dark ages! It's been happening for a while now. Better get used to all vendor lock-in BS. My advice, users really need to get accustomed to free and open alternative platforms.

Although, the new MacBook Pro looks seductive, I always steer clear of the 1. generation models. I suggest you do the same.

Okay, Apple has effectively paved the way with the new Retina displays, since there was no way in hell that the competitors would have the brains to offer something remotely similiar without charging three times what Apple is demanding. It it high time for higher resolution displays. Hopefully, the next big thing is vector-based resolution independant GUIs!

Reply Score: 2

Comment by marcp
by marcp on Thu 14th Jun 2012 12:42 UTC
marcp
Member since:
2007-11-23

Consumerism. More and more and more ... buy new product, get rid of the previous one.

That's the main problem and reason for this kind of crap.

Personaly I'd prefer to have device that can be fixed in every service shop. I don't buy new hardware very often, I am not a typical consumer, I tend to follow "if it ain't broken don't touch it" rule. If it works it's not broken and there's no need for me to change it.

It also has some serious environmental impact too.

Reply Score: 3

Replacement policy
by acobar on Thu 14th Jun 2012 13:47 UTC
acobar
Member since:
2005-11-15

Well, with these steps it may mean that or Apple really does not care anymore about professionals users, which often do update their machines, or that they will announce a more expensive PRO special series for them.

Common, batteries, hd and memories are not only the more probable parts to be updated, they are also the main point of failure. May I be wrong but my guess is that Apple wants to provide their stores with some income by servicing, like the auto industry does.

Even though I like the general aspect of OSX, and think Retina display is gorgeous, I will not ever buy a device that can not have these critical parts easily exchangeable.

Reply Score: 3

My phone is better than this.
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Thu 14th Jun 2012 14:11 UTC
Bill Shooter of Bul
Member since:
2006-07-14

On my current Captivate I can replace the battery and add storage. I realize several phone makers including many good android phones have nothing you can add or subtract, but I can't get with that kind of a lock down at this point. I value what little freedom I can get from my hardware and software, while actually having a working device that makes my life easier.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by SaschaW
by SaschaW on Thu 14th Jun 2012 23:58 UTC
SaschaW
Member since:
2007-07-19

I don't understand this entire argument. To me it's a bit like with cars. Somebody who buys a Mercedes will take it to the shop if there are any problems with the car. A Mercedes driver is very unlikely to service the car himself, except for basic things. Someone who likes to tinker with his car is probably better of with a different car. Apple products kind of fall in the same category. I purchased mine with 16 gigs of ram, that's going to be enough for me for at least 2 years. If the battery or anything else fails it goes back to apple and I let them worry how they fix it.

Edited 2012-06-15 00:03 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE: Comment by SaschaW
by nt_jerkface on Fri 15th Jun 2012 15:38 UTC in reply to "Comment by SaschaW"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

It is like Mercedes in that the actual reliability doesn't match the perception of the buyers.

This is more like being required to go to the dealer for something basic like an oil change.

It's not just about money, it's about time lost having to take it in to the creepy pastel cult store. With standard laptops you can buy a battery online and replace it at your leisure. With Apple you have to take it in or mail it.

When I go on vacation I take an extra hard drive in case the primary fails. With Apple I wouldn't be able to do that. FYI Apple doesn't use top quality hard drives and SSDs. But if you want to pay a 500% markup for downtime then have a blast.

Edited 2012-06-15 15:40 UTC

Reply Score: 2

v 1
by Anonymous on Tue 19th Jun 2012 21:07 UTC