Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 15th Jun 2012 21:16 UTC
Windows This rumour has been rummaging around the web for a few days, but now that The New York Times has picked it up, it probably carries a bit more validity than it did before. Microsoft invited members of the press to a mystery event coming Monday, and supposedly, the company will launch its very own ARM tablet running Windows RT.
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What the hell am I reading...
by strim on Fri 15th Jun 2012 21:25 UTC
strim
Member since:
2008-07-01

"though most people still aren’t using tablets for hard-core tasks like writing long documents and building big spreadsheets"

Reply Score: 2

RE: What the hell am I reading...
by sukru on Fri 15th Jun 2012 21:39 UTC in reply to "What the hell am I reading..."
sukru Member since:
2006-11-19

Personally, I see tablets more of a "consumption" device, whereas PC (and now actually workstations) as content generation devices.

My keyboard/mouse cannot be replaced by anything else for coding, or web development. Also, I believe he is right, except for small emails, and forum posts, I do not write much on touchscreens.

Edited 2012-06-15 21:39 UTC

Reply Score: 4

WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

Personally, I see tablets more of a "consumption" device, whereas PC (and now actually workstations) as content generation devices.

My keyboard/mouse cannot be replaced by anything else for coding, or web development. Also, I believe he is right, except for small emails, and forum posts, I do not write much on touchscreens.


Well, for 'power users' like us, Metro doesn't have a lot of use one way or the other on a desktop. But for your average tech tard and soccer mom, they could get a Windows 8 tablet, plug it into a docking station with plenty of USB ports for keyboard/mouse/printer/etc, and use it as their primary desktop, since (unlike Android and iOS) it was designed from the ground up to be either touch or keyboard/mouse driven. And when they need a tablet, they could just undock it from the docking station, and then their desktop computer becomes a full-blown tablet, with all of the same apps and settings they use on the desktop.

I've used an Asus Transformer, with the keyboard dock and a trackball connected via USB, and quite honestly, an OS like Windows 8 that was better designed to be used that way could serve as a desktop computer, assuming you don't need a full-blown desktop with all the bells and whistles.

I guess this all depends on how well Metro catches on in Windows 8. If tech tards turn their collective noses up at it and choose to stay in classic mode, MS will be in serious trouble. If it does catch on though, MS could end up dominating the tablet space, and also smartphones/ if/when they port WinRT over to Windows Phone.

Edited 2012-06-16 06:04 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Lennie Member since:
2007-09-22

"it was designed from the ground up to be either touch or keyboard/mouse driven"

That is the theory, but I've tried it and they might have tried, but they failed.

Reply Score: 4

reduz Member since:
2006-02-25

I'm not so sure this is the right strategy. Apple appeals to both the tech and non-tech world alike, and so does Google. Most computer illiterate users or soccer moms don't really understand tech products anyway and buy (or are given as gift) devices such as tablets by more knowledgable users.
If Windows RT doesn't really appeal most of the tech world, I can't see how soccer moms will even know what it is.

Reply Score: 3

WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

Apple appeals to both the tech and non-tech world alike


Does it? I don't know any techies personally that are really into Apple products. In fact, most would rather have their balls crushed by a wooden mallot than own any product with an Apple logo on it. So I'm not convinced that Macs and iPhones are the domain of geeks.

I know folks who use Macs for things like video editing and music production, but they're not exactly what I would call techies - more like professionals who use computers to get work done. Not the kind of crowd Metro would appeal to ;)

Reply Score: 1

reduz Member since:
2006-02-25

Techies don't have to like Apple products, but they sure get fed up when their "family" computers get infested with viruses/trojans/etc. That's when they end up recommending or purchasing Macs/iPads as gifts.
This is an extremely common scenario in today's world.

Edited 2012-06-17 14:53 UTC

Reply Score: 2

zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Extremely common? If insisting on such style of modifier, "extremely rare" is closer.

Well, maybe quite common in some atypical places throughout the world... but in most of it your "family"(?) would laugh you out from suggesting to get an Apple machine; and gifting one would probably fall under awkward.

Reply Score: 2

David Member since:
1997-10-01

Walk around the Silicon Valley area a while, and you'll see an awful lot of Apple hardware in the hands of hard-core software developer types. And iPhones and iPads too.

Reply Score: 1

zima Member since:
2005-07-06

I know folks who use Macs for things like video editing and music production, but they're not exactly what I would call techies - more like professionals who use computers to get work done. Not the kind of crowd Metro would appeal to ;)

I'd say that a large touchscreen UI could be awesome for video editing and music production...

And MS, with Metro, probably aims the most out of all players at such usage, considering their push of Metro with "serious" OS, or the continuing development of Surface (the ~table kind) and its display tech.

Reply Score: 2

Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

Yeah, I hear ya. Hard core tasks. Man, if someone in the computer industry just woke up from a 30 year coma, they'd be so depressed to read that statement.

Reply Score: 2

If true, a big mistake by MS
by benali72 on Fri 15th Jun 2012 22:25 UTC
benali72
Member since:
2008-05-03

If true, this is a big mistake by Microsoft. They really need the OEM's right now, as they desperately try to gain traction in the tablet and smartphone markets. And they choose this time to turn around and compete with them?

If true, this is a mistake of classic proportions.

Edited 2012-06-15 22:27 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: If true, a big mistake by MS
by Adurbe on Fri 15th Jun 2012 22:35 UTC in reply to "If true, a big mistake by MS"
Adurbe Member since:
2005-07-06

Google make a branded android phone. It hasnt cannibalised the uptake of the platform. Microsoft are being Very careful in how the first products are received and seen. This tablet will be what all the other win8 tablets are judged against

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: If true, a big mistake by MS
by jptros on Mon 18th Jun 2012 17:02 UTC in reply to "RE: If true, a big mistake by MS"
jptros Member since:
2005-08-26

That's largely due to the fact that google's latest and greatest only launches on specific carriers, in other words it's not readily available to everyone.

Reply Score: 2

RE: If true, a big mistake by MS
by lemur2 on Sat 16th Jun 2012 03:58 UTC in reply to "If true, a big mistake by MS"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

If true, this is a big mistake by Microsoft. They really need the OEM's right now, as they desperately try to gain traction in the tablet and smartphone markets. And they choose this time to turn around and compete with them?

If true, this is a mistake of classic proportions.


Zune revisited.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: If true, a big mistake by MS
by Adurbe on Sat 16th Jun 2012 10:05 UTC in reply to "RE: If true, a big mistake by MS"
Adurbe Member since:
2005-07-06

you mean XBOX music ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE: If true, a big mistake by MS
by quackalist on Sat 16th Jun 2012 05:17 UTC in reply to "If true, a big mistake by MS"
quackalist Member since:
2007-08-27

..If true, this is a mistake of classic proportions


No reason,if it's an Arm tablet or not, to think it other than a mistake as MS seems to have collectively lost it mistaking itself for something else. Kinda like Dallas in the 80's (?)I'm expecting to be told it was all a Ballmer bad dream and MS will be rebooted as if it never happened.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by kovacm
by kovacm on Sat 16th Jun 2012 00:03 UTC
kovacm
Member since:
2010-12-16

Alan Kay:

"People who are really serious about software should make their own hardware."
talk at Creative Think seminar, 20 July 1982

Reply Score: 1

RE: Comment by kovacm
by zima on Sat 16th Jun 2012 01:37 UTC in reply to "Comment by kovacm"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Alan Kay, Atari's chief scientist in 1982 (1981-1984 http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~history/GASCH.KAY.HTML )

Atari's software, seen as a whole, wasn't particularly exquisite then & until the end of their hardware sales. Actually, it was often rubbish, greatly contributing to the video game crash a year later - during which Atari collapsed and nearly folded. They never really recovered, were essentially gone a decade later - not much more than old brands assets, worth (sold for) $5 million; the Atari brand adopted by unrelated company, Infogrames, soon after.

What a really serious success story... (and more the rule than the exception)


Also...

Group Leader, Principal Scientist, Xerox Fellow, Xerox Palo Alto Research Center, 1971-1981 - Xerox Alto and Star didn't really go anywhere by themselves; the impractical hardware quite possibly had something to do with it.

Apple Fellow, Apple Computer, 1984-1996 - largely concurrent with the times of some questionable directions WRT to their hardware, increasingly troubled OS, and the resulting free fall during the first half of the 90s.

President, Viewpoints Research Institute, 2001-present - seems to be purely software-oriented, maybe two decades changed his mind.

Edited 2012-06-16 01:57 UTC

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Comment by kovacm
by kovacm on Sat 16th Jun 2012 12:40 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by kovacm"
kovacm Member since:
2010-12-16

Not sure what you are trying to say?! That Alan K. was wrong? ;)

Take a look at Apple today or take a look at Microsoft inability to gain market share with Windows Mobile 7 or with tablets: they start to make their own hardware in order to compete with Apple.

Btw you have no clue what Alan work at Atari, right?

Edited 2012-06-16 12:41 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Comment by kovacm
by zima on Sat 16th Jun 2012 16:11 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by kovacm"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

It's like "and more the rule than the exception" just wasn't there ...but I guess it's again about salivating at the company you worship now (while curiously brushing aside the failure - just one among many such - of your past darling, judging from avatar), seeking out slogans fit for the purpose.

Have another one from the same speech of Kay BTW:
"Humans like fantasy and sharing:
Fantasy fulfills a need for a simpler, more controllable world."
...repels the uncomfortable concepts of chance, and so on.

Plus there's pretty much nothing special about Apple hardware in ways which influence their software - something Kay would likely have in mind, considering his then-employer and earlier experience with highly experimental machines, languages, and so on. He's not a pompous industrial designer or marketer.

But yeah, if that first '82 quote pretty much goes against even his own professional and overall market history, one might doubt its accuracy.

Edited 2012-06-16 16:15 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Comment by kovacm
by kovacm on Mon 18th Jun 2012 18:52 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by kovacm"
kovacm Member since:
2010-12-16

It's like "and more the rule than the exception" just wasn't there ...but I guess it's again about salivating at the company you worship now (while curiously brushing aside the failure - just one among many such - of your past darling, judging from avatar)

yes, Microsoft with mindless IT "experts" manage to proclaim PC as way to go.

This is mistake. Windows 95 bring to PC everything that we have for many years on other platforms. Even applications.

After Windows 95 we have nothing new for 10 years!

...until Apple, only company that still have software and hardware under same roof, present iPhone.

and today, 5 years after iPhone, Microsoft will try to challenge Apple with his own hardware (this happened before: Zune).

and yes, Alan Kay was right: you can not separate software and hardware, if you do so, you will not be able to moving things forward.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Comment by kovacm
by zima on Mon 18th Jun 2012 22:04 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by kovacm"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Yes, you do like fantasies.

PC taking over had nothing to do with MS "proclaiming" it. In the real world things don't happen just because you "proclaim" them. Fantasies you worship, to have tidy & controllable world, don't become true by "proclamation".

The PC approach was simply by far the best path, that's why it crushed virtually all the other* - also why it was the one which succeeded in the stated goal of Gates and MS, to make computers widely available, widespread (or maybe you want a return to those glorious times when very few had them, when you could feel special?).
And Windows was the most viable choice of the OS, at the time ( http://www.osnews.com/permalink?522221 ).


*including Apple hardware - but you're too far gone, seemingly unable to assimilate the info that Apple hardware platforms failed, and they switched to the tech of PC world - Macs are PCs now. You can't understand that, as far as influence on software goes, Apple hardware (also mobile) is now generic - again, Kay certainly wasn't talking about industrial design.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment by kovacm
by kovacm on Tue 19th Jun 2012 08:39 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by kovacm"
kovacm Member since:
2010-12-16


The PC approach was simply by far the best path, that's why it crushed virtually all the other* - also why it was the one which succeeded in the stated goal of Gates and MS, to make computers widely available, widespread (or maybe you want a return to those glorious times when very few had them, when you could feel special?).
And Windows was the most viable choice of the OS, at the time ( http://www.osnews.com/permalink?522221 ).

this is most laughable part: Bill Gates is responsible that every house have computer - it was inevitably. Bell was only very lucky to have PC operating system monopoly position right from start.

anyway, today you have Apple that stomp all over Microsoft with software + hardware product, in new category and Microsoft can not fight back with "software only" + OEM approach.

that was point: if you do software and hardware under same roof you will make superior product.

*including Apple hardware - but you're too far gone, seemingly unable to assimilate the info that Apple hardware platforms failed, and they switched to the tech of PC world - Macs are PCs now. You can't understand that, as far as influence on software goes, Apple hardware (also mobile) is now generic - again, Kay certainly wasn't talking about industrial design.

Apple start to use PC components when they become "good enough".

Apple design, together with Motorola, AltiVec (SSE like) instructions to hardware accelerate (among other things) composite desktop. Intel chips get comparable SSE only few years later.
And you can apply same logic on everything else: they start to replace SCSI with IDE when IDE get DMA mod.
they replace NuBus slots with PCI (skiping ISA junk), same goes to EFI...

yes, in past 20 years PC standards improved and Apple accept one by one.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Comment by kovacm
by zima on Fri 22nd Jun 2012 23:59 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by kovacm"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Yup, you are too far gone, living in fantasy land.

Apple almost folded in the mid-90s largely because of ignoring, for a long time already back then, how the PC way of arriving at standards was better.

Here, have a word from your messiah:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LEXae1j6EY&feature=player_detailpag...

lousy engineering management [...] the total is less than the sum of the parts

...and particularly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LEXae1j6EY&feature=player_detailpag...
Apple had its head in the sand for the last many years [...] missed out [...] attitude of arrogance [...] the rest of the world passed us by [...] we need to bring the Mac up into the modern world [...] because we weren't first, because we didn't set the standards [...] this whole notion of being so proprietary in every facet what we do has really hurt us [...] reinvent the wheel our own way; and yeah it might be 10% better but usually it ended up being about 50% worse

Of course, the marketing wasn't saying exactly that, so the faithful you could continue to worship BS like PowerPC "supercomputer on chip" G4 - a CPU way slower than what was available on the PC, except in few hand-picked Altivec Photoshop benchmarks.

And you're of course so quick to dismiss those who brought that modern world about which your messiah talks about, so quick to dismiss great achievements of MS... (did they play dirty from time to time? Sure, but everybody tries that... Were their products somewhat flawed for a long time? Sure, but they were still most suitable) Yeah, it was just "luck"

A "computer in every house" was a very clearly & publicly stated goal of Bill Gates (versus Apple already back then targeting mostly "profitable" people, ignoring "lesser" ones - I guess that makes you feel better, particularly in Balkans, Czech Republic, or maybe Baltic states, I guess)

And you still fail to recognize that Apple is one hw-sw success story - like you're blind to dozens upon dozens of colossal failures.

BTW, where hardware really matters, in servers - Apple again failed recently, pulled out, with the xserve market. Also, OSX brings plenty of its components from the outside, they bought iTunes, FCP, bought the capacitive tech they use, adopted khtml ...so many crucial components not growing out of any particular synergy with hardware - what, again, Kay would likely had in mind.

You know, there was a time when I was embracing and recommending Apple. I stopped primarily so as to not be associated with people like you.

Edited 2012-06-23 00:18 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by kovacm
by Soulbender on Sun 17th Jun 2012 06:13 UTC in reply to "Comment by kovacm"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Well, we have come a long way since 1982...

Reply Score: 2

Comment by dylansmrjones
by dylansmrjones on Sat 16th Jun 2012 00:54 UTC
dylansmrjones
Member since:
2005-10-02

We'll know come Monday. The same day we'll know if The Netherlands is on a plane home, or if we get a (completely undeserved) reprieve.

Completely undeserved? Suuuuure ;)
Next time you meet us, make sure you play as team so you won´t be robben'ed of the victory.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by dylansmrjones
by Lennie on Sat 16th Jun 2012 06:32 UTC in reply to "Comment by dylansmrjones"
Lennie Member since:
2007-09-22

Unlike the 99% of the people in my country, I actually expected them to fail in the first round.

I didn't expect them to mess up the first game as badly as they did though.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Comment by dylansmrjones
by Athlander on Sat 16th Jun 2012 08:40 UTC in reply to "Comment by dylansmrjones"
Athlander Member since:
2008-03-10

Completely undeserved? Suuuuure ;)
Next time you meet us, make sure you play as team so you won´t be robben'ed of the victory.


I think you're getting "deserved" and "undeserved" confused, as the two sentences in your comment don't really gel.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by dylansmrjones
by Thom_Holwerda on Sat 16th Jun 2012 08:55 UTC in reply to "Comment by dylansmrjones"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

You guys deserved to win, as did Germany. I think you misunderstood the sentence!

I'll still be hoping and cheering come Sunday, of course.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Comment by dylansmrjones
by Adurbe on Sat 16th Jun 2012 10:07 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by dylansmrjones"
Adurbe Member since:
2005-07-06

sport talk on OSNEWS!! didnt think I would live this long :-p

Reply Score: 4

Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

Just wait for the IKF U23 World Korfball Championship, that's true sport. I expect daily updates from this site!

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by dylansmrjones
by dylansmrjones on Sat 16th Jun 2012 13:01 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by dylansmrjones"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Sorry, I misread yes. Tired and all. My mistake. But your forwards really should learn to play as a team; you'd be champions if you did that.

EDIT: Not that the matches matter; the Irish fans have already won the Euro.

Edited 2012-06-16 13:02 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by dylansmrjones
by zima on Sun 17th Jun 2012 01:51 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by dylansmrjones"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

the Irish fans have already won the Euro

?

Reply Score: 2

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Didn't you see their match against Spain? The Irish supporters are second to none, simply.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment by dylansmrjones
by zima on Sun 17th Jun 2012 04:58 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by dylansmrjones"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Actually, no, I don't really follow it - I consider the whole show mostly a waste of time. I did see PL-RU, not because I was rooting for PL (as is expected from virtually everybody here...) - but because it seemed potentially funny, considering the traditional antagonisms (would be really funny if it stayed at 0-1).

That's why I asked - thanks for the info, I might check out that match.

Edited 2012-06-17 05:00 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment by dylansmrjones
by Soulbender on Sun 17th Jun 2012 13:47 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by dylansmrjones"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Wait, are you saying there are football fans that aren't hooligans and thugs? Wtf? Isn't that against he laws of nature?

Reply Score: 2

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Troede du kendte til begrebet 'roligans'? ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Comment by dylansmrjones
by Soulbender on Mon 18th Jun 2012 03:24 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by dylansmrjones"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Ja nu när du säger det så...
Lite konstigt att de fortfarande är i det närmaste ensamma om att inte vara hooligans.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by dylansmrjones
by maccouch on Sat 16th Jun 2012 22:26 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by dylansmrjones"
maccouch Member since:
2012-03-14

"I'll still be hoping and cheering come Sunday, of course."

now why would you do such a thing? ;)

Edited 2012-06-16 22:27 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE: Comment by dylansmrjones
by judgen on Sat 16th Jun 2012 12:01 UTC in reply to "Comment by dylansmrjones"
judgen Member since:
2006-07-12

Football is for people that is either to weak or too poor to afford hockey gear.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Comment by dylansmrjones
by demosthenese on Sat 16th Jun 2012 13:49 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by dylansmrjones"
demosthenese Member since:
2011-02-01

Can't afford? What? A stick?

Too weak? To play a non-contact sport?

Reply Score: 1

BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

If you consider hockey a non contact sport, you are playing it wrong.

Reply Score: 2

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

If I'm not mistaken hockey (not the ice-form) is all about hitting the opponent really hard just right on the left side of his right knee with your stick. Very technical actually.

Of course, I may have played it wrong as kid.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by dylansmrjones
by ilovebeer on Sat 16th Jun 2012 15:07 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by dylansmrjones"
ilovebeer Member since:
2011-08-08

Football is for people that is either to weak or too poor to afford hockey gear.

They call soccer "football" to make it sound more manly. But still, in reality more people are injured performing ballet than playing soccer (or rugby for that matter). The same can't be said for real football, even with the pads.

Reply Score: 2

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

There is nothing football about the U.S.-specific form of rugby. The only reason they can play with injuries is because they are partly robots with all that silly protection ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Comment by dylansmrjones
by Soulbender on Sun 17th Jun 2012 13:49 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by dylansmrjones"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Although in all fairness, on the plus side the american football fans doesn't seem to be nearly as violent and idiotic as football fans. Yeah yeah, I know it's not all fans but I've never heard of riots at american football games.
I guess there's at least something we could learn from those yanks.

Reply Score: 2

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Gaelic football beats the crap out of that silly sissy game from USA. Or australian football if you don't mindt complete craziness.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment by dylansmrjones
by Soulbender on Mon 18th Jun 2012 03:25 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by dylansmrjones"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Sure and handball's tougher than american "football" too but that's not the point. I was talking about the fans, not the game ;)

Reply Score: 2

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Well, gaelic football fans also beat the crap out of US "football" fans ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment by dylansmrjones
by zima on Sun 17th Jun 2012 14:20 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by dylansmrjones"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

I've never heard of riots at american football games.

And looking at stadiums - hardly any barrier between audience and the field, no plexi walls to segregate stands into sectors ...so tamed.

More: the same even at their (relatively few, but still around here and there) association football venues O_o

Reply Score: 2

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Just like in Denmark. There may be some soft of a fence somewhere sort of to segregate fans from each other, but not much actually. Many stadiums don't even have actual seats. Just a relatively green field to play on and some 2 foot high signs with commercials on them, and that's it.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by dylansmrjones
by zima on Sun 17th Jun 2012 01:48 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by dylansmrjones"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

They call soccer "football" to make it sound more manly. [...] real football

They call handegg "real football" to make it sound more manly...

(plus http://www.kyon.pl/img/5708.html - large part of attention towards offences is exactly because without it serious injuries would be quite easy and common ...also, really, there's the aspect of what surrounds the grass, often a bit extreme ;p - seems there's a current log in the latter part of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_2012#Racism_and_hooliganism and while the mentioned BBC Panorama Euro 2012: Stadiums of Hate is curiously selective, a bit - still, worth checking out)

Edited 2012-06-17 01:55 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by dylansmrjones
by Soulbender on Sun 17th Jun 2012 13:42 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by dylansmrjones"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

The call football "soccer" because they don't know any better.

The same can't be said for real football, even with the pads


Oh, you mean the kind of football that is mainly played with the hands....
Is that a manly sport? I mean, what wuss need all that protective gear and all those drugs?

Edited 2012-06-17 13:43 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by dylansmrjones
by shotsman on Sun 17th Jun 2012 15:36 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by dylansmrjones"
shotsman Member since:
2005-07-22

Exactly how many times are the 'Feet' used in a game of this thing that they call 'FootBall' in the USA?

Pah.
If ever a sport was misnamed that is it?

If should be called

'Two teams of idiots filling the gaps between Ad breaks.'

As a former Rugby Football No 8 who played to a pretty decent level, I know that US Footbal players are next to useless without that padding and armour. They are more likley to injure themselves by pulling out of a tackle than going through with it. They pull out when they realise that they don't have all that padding on.
WE had a couple of US Football players (din't make the draft level) come an try out for our club. They lasted a month, including several injuries before admitting that there was nt way they could take 80minutes of that pounding. oeally nice guys but to play them would have meant completely re-training them.

Reply Score: 2

It wont be a Windows 8 tablet.
by Nelson on Sat 16th Jun 2012 02:25 UTC
Nelson
Member since:
2005-11-29

It'll be an e-reader Kindle Fire competitor made in a partnership by Barnes and Noble and Microsoft.

It makes a hell of a lot more sense than saying Microsoft is going to compete against OEMs shipping Windows 8.

That's my best guess.

Reply Score: 5

Comment by ilovebeer
by ilovebeer on Sat 16th Jun 2012 03:31 UTC
ilovebeer
Member since:
2011-08-08

It's interesting some people, for some bizarre reason, think Windows RT has not had `proper testing` thus far and this close to release. It's actually kind of funny.

Anyways, I'm not going to pretend I have a crystal ball, especially since practically all the facts are still unknown. But, it will be interesting to watch those facts unfold as they become public, along with what happens over the next 6-12 months.

Reply Score: 3

Most people don't get windows 8
by LouisBarman on Sat 16th Jun 2012 09:37 UTC
LouisBarman
Member since:
2010-06-06

Most people I speak to just don't get what Windows 8 is all about.

Fundamentally a tablet is no different from a desktop/laptop once you add a _decent_ keyboard and mouse. This is best explained in terms of the iPad 3 (OK I know -- it's called the "new iPad"). So suppose a user WANTS to run Photoshop or Excel or a full IDE on an iPad 3 like device. All they need to do is add a _decent_ keyboard and mouse, they already have a very good screen with more pixels than most desktops.

You try to explain this to Apple fan boys and they just stair at you blankly and say something like "why on earth would you want to do that? You know that tablets and laptops are fundimentally different". But why pay/carry two device's when the tablet could easily be transformed into a full desktop experience just by adding a keyboard and mouse. There are also massive battery gains for an arm based laptop.

Provided windows 8 experience is not totally crippled on the desktop I expect in the long term that this combined desktop/tablet experience to be windows 8 killer feature.

Reply Score: 3

nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

So suppose a user WANTS to run Photoshop or Excel or a full IDE on an iPad 3 like device. All they need to do is add a _decent_ keyboard and mouse, they already have a very good screen with more pixels than most desktops.


That would require an x86 tablet/laptop hybrid. Those don't exist.

Even if they did exist that still isn't a good reason to compromise desktop productivity. It would make more sense to have the hybrid detect when it is in tablet mode and then change the interface, not force a semi-tablet interface when it is in desktop mode.

People get that Windows 8 sucks. It doesn't provide anything for them.

There are also massive battery gains for an arm based laptop.


I get around 7 hours with my Core i5 laptop. For ARM laptops the battery gain isn't worth the loss of compatibility. Programs like Photoshop and iTunes can't be converted overnight and companies like Adobe won't care about porting to such a small market.

Edited 2012-06-16 14:56 UTC

Reply Score: 1

Johann Chua Member since:
2005-07-22

Why would you run iTunes on a tablet?

Reply Score: 2

darknexus Member since:
2008-07-15

Why would you run iTunes on a tablet?


Why would you run iTunes, period? Sorry, had to.

Reply Score: 4

nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

It's an example of a widely used program that requires an x86 machine.

It's not a program I use but I'm also a realist who takes into consideration the computing needs of the general populace. Designing a system that ignores such needs is foolish.

Edited 2012-06-17 00:48 UTC

Reply Score: 2

ferrels Member since:
2006-08-15

Yes, they do exist. I have one and it's called the Acer Iconia Tab W500. It runs Windows and Android x86 just fine, with or without the keyboard dock.

Reply Score: 4

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29


That would require an x86 tablet/laptop hybrid. Those don't exist.


Yes they do? Samsung Series 7 Tablet comes with Bluetooth. All you need is a BT KB and Mouse. Its still Windows, your peripherals work.

That's plenty hybrid for my workflows.


Even if they did exist that still isn't a good reason to compromise desktop productivity. It would make more sense to have the hybrid detect when it is in tablet mode and then change the interface, not force a semi-tablet interface when it is in desktop mode.


It's called WinKey+D to go to the Desktop. All my apps work (yes, including your stupid iTunes red herring)


People get that Windows 8 sucks. It doesn't provide anything for them.


I'm glad you know what "People get", you should really be a pollster, since you know everything about everybody. You must be about the greatest spokesman for bullshit I've ever seen.

I get around 7 hours with my Core i5 laptop. For ARM laptops the battery gain isn't worth the loss of compatibility.


Agreed. I find x86 Windows 8 machines a much more attractive proposition. Especially if Intel can get power consumption down (Which I have no doubt they can). Another cool thing is that Windows 8 devices much meet temp requirements, so no, the damn thing can't burn a hole in your lap anymore.

Programs like Photoshop and iTunes can't be converted overnight and companies like Adobe won't care about porting to such a small market.


Programs like Photoshop and iTunes can't be ported to Windows RT period. They either go full on Metro with a rewrite, or they don't get to play ball. I'd prefer if iTunes didn't play ball, personally.

Its Windows. It sells by virtue of being Windows.

Edited 2012-06-17 19:47 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: Most people don't get windows 8
by ichi on Sat 16th Jun 2012 20:23 UTC in reply to "Most people don't get windows 8"
ichi Member since:
2007-03-06

Fundamentally a tablet is no different from a desktop/laptop once you add a _decent_ keyboard and mouse. This is best explained in terms of the iPad 3 (OK I know -- it's called the "new iPad"). So suppose a user WANTS to run Photoshop or Excel or a full IDE on an iPad 3 like device. All they need to do is add a _decent_ keyboard and mouse, they already have a very good screen with more pixels than most desktops.


That would be cool if it wasn't because window management is pretty much non existant on tablets, so it would only work if you are using your computer as an appliance where you are booting to run one single app.

And that's exactly why people complain about Metro (besides looking like a web page with missing CSS): it's bringing all the limitations of window management from tablets to the desktop.

Reply Score: 2

MollyC Member since:
2006-07-04

Well, I'd guess that 90% of users hate "window management", which is why they run their apps maximized. For those that need multiple windows running, W8 still has the desktop. What I see is that the sefl-proclaimed "power users" can't accept the fact that they are in the severe minority of users, and they're pissed that Microsoft is going to cater to the 90% now, rather than the 10%. Those folks need to get over it, and need to get over themselves while they're at it.

Reply Score: 2

quackalist Member since:
2007-08-27

I'd guess that 100% of guessers don't really know what they're talking about and just guessing...could be wrong though as it's just a guess.

Reply Score: 1

ichi Member since:
2007-03-06

they're pissed that Microsoft is going to cater to the 90% now, rather than the 10%. Those folks need to get over it, and need to get over themselves while they're at it.


I'm not pissed, I just think that it sucks at addressing my needs (I'm not a "self proclaimed power user", but I have the feeling your intention was tagging all the dissenters).

A fair complain, I think, but then again I don't even use Windows so it's not like I care that much.

Just my opinion. Deal with it without trying to find lame excuses for my reasons.

Edited 2012-06-18 17:34 UTC

Reply Score: 2

quackalist Member since:
2007-08-27

Could have fooled me...anyone with an ounce gets it. They just don't want it or have any use for it. If I could turn it off, not fussed if anyone else wants metro, and just use the next service pack for 7 [Vista] I wouldn't mind.

Not used one myself but I saw someone with a windows phone today....metro seemed to make sense with that and on a tablet it probably does too, though it all seems like an attempt to lock-down and monetise.

Isn't it about time MS actually did something radical with Windows instead of releasing service packs (no, metro isn't radical...perverse, perhaps).

Edited 2012-06-17 02:07 UTC

Reply Score: 1

kristoph Member since:
2006-01-01

The thing is, if you add a decent keyboard and mouse/trackpad to an iPad you have a laptop.

And if you need a decent keyboard and mouse/trackpad on a daily basis then an iPad is a consumption device for you.

If you only need to write an occasional email, letter, tweak some picture, maybe do a drawing, then an iPad is all you need and the keyboard is unnecessary (even if it's still helpful occasionally).

Reply Score: 2

Comment by ilovebeer
by ilovebeer on Sun 17th Jun 2012 18:04 UTC
ilovebeer
Member since:
2011-08-08

Soccer.....lol
Trying to defend soccer.....LOL

Reply Score: 1

What RT really stands for
by viator on Sun 17th Jun 2012 20:42 UTC
viator
Member since:
2005-10-11

RT should for now and forever more be known as RESTRICTED TABLET!
I will NEVER buy a device that i am prevented from installing whatever i want to on it!

Reply Score: 2

Monday nearing to an end...
by zima on Mon 18th Jun 2012 22:09 UTC
zima
Member since:
2005-07-06

So, where's the announcement?

Reply Score: 2