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That is the biggest problem, and the only page they still haven't taken from Apple's book: one should not present a product without a price and a shipping date.

People are talking about the Surface, but how long? And how will they react, months from now, when they will discover the steep price of the tablet? Because make no mistake: between the Magnesium+PVD with micron tolerances, the gorilla glass and the fact they need to avoid competiting with their own OEM, expect a very, very high price, even if MS tries to sell it at a loss like a game console. Why do you think nodody pulled it before? Eh.

It is probably a "halo" item purely designed to generate publicity. MS doesn't need to sell a single one of these tablets to achieve their goal.

Edited 2012-06-20 06:51 UTC

If their goal is to convince people that Microsoft sells vaporware, then not shipping a single Surface could do it.

If their goal is to convince Dell/HP/Compaq/Acer/etc. that Microsoft is going to compete with their own OEM customers, then Surface could do it.

If their goal is to reinforce the idea that Zune, Kin, etc. were not flukes and that Microsoft really can't compete with Apple outside of the traditional desktop, then having insignificant sales of Surface could achieve that goal.

It is simply a myth that magnesium cases, gorilla glass etc are very expensive. A magnesium case is simply die cast and CNC machined by an OEM supplier - the cost is only a couple of bucks.

A couple of years ago I sourced high end (Rolex quality) stainless steel watch bracelets in China. They cost a mere 59 cents each in bulk.

There is a world of difference between making a nice shiny prototype and making the same thing on an industrial scale at an acceptable price point and without too many returns. Do you know how much do the awesome computers you see on display in conferences and trade shows cost? 10.000 $.

Don't believe me?


http://www.anandtech.com/show/5968/acers-iconia-w700-tablet-windows...

I don't know for you, but dividing the price of a product by ten (while increasing production, keeping quality high, and starting new products) is not small job. Try to work in manufacturing for once. MS poured tons of money in this, spent hours and $ making tons of prototypes, and the tablet crashed during the demo - and they have neither a price nor a shipping date.

Edited 2012-06-19 08:53 UTC

That's nice conjecture, but the fact that this will be a shipping product seems to fly in the face of that defense. Obviously, the Surface Tablet has the potential to be mass produced, else it wouldnt be being sold to the masses.

What does Microsoft have that other OEMs dont? Besides drive? I mean, perhaps some of the OEM stuff is defensible to a small degree, but there is absolutely zero, none, ziltch justification for the utter GARBAGE they routinely spew out.

If you're going to come with the "its too hard excuse" then get out of the OEM business.

Sorry, it will be a fact when it will actually be a fact. The only facts here are Microsoft's gorgeous design and their statements.

Oh whatever.

Yes, facts be damned.

Sorry but the anything but Microsoft attitude gets fucking old.

what gets fracking old is people thinking Microsoft is nothing more than a house for crappy products.

Windows 7 phones are pure beauty.

This coming from a Linux user and blogger. The only thing Microsoft really had to do was get hardware in line to make this tablet a reality.

And you're doubting one of the largest tech companies in the world can do that. I think you should think about that for a bit.

You may already have forgotten, but before the Surface Tablet, Microsoft created the Surface Table. Remember the price?

10.000$.

And don't begin to tell me "it's bigger so it's normal to be so expensive". Miniaturization is expensive.

Billions of dollars of cash from years of a successful monopoly in business and consumer software?

Since when does Apple pull out ultra-sleek monobloc devices made of glass and alloys? Since they got successfull with the iPod and iTunes and got enough money to overstep competition, pay upfront for whole factories, hundreds of machining machines, tons of rare materials. The OEM are all clinging to razor-thin margins - the result of competition. Disruption is coming from outside of the OEM battlefield, from players armored with tons of cash (earned elsewhere) ready to be poured and lost. If the surface tablet fails, the impact on MS margins will be negligible. What OEM can say that?

Surface (the table) used fundamentally different technology, and still does on a product thats not mass audience viable yet, so economies of scale don't drive prices down.

In fact, the Surface (table) 2 came down in price significantly. Half the cost of the original.




That grants them some leeway, but the truth is that a lot of what they've done is inexcusable. The pure amount of bullshit they load onto devices is abhorrent and they suck at software, yet insist on forcing it down users throats.

The terrible experience doesn't end at the hardware, it runs wholly through the software and corrupts otherwise decent platforms (Android stock for example).

I'm sorry, but I can't blame Microsoft for being fed up with OEMs shopping around form factors from 2002 Tablet PCs.

The asus eee pad transformer, is already a better ARM laptop.

Android is ok for phone, but not for tablet. I already have tegra2 android laptop. It was only useful to install linux.
Surface is pretending to be a solid product, unlike yet another device to run unsupported geek OS.

Edited 2012-06-19 03:13 UTC

True that I mostly use it with linux, but as a linux laptop it fits the decent ARM laptop (with a nice keyboard to start with)

If you unlock the bootloader on the Transformer, you can install the most mature desktop operating system available for ARM: GNU/Linux.

Speaking of stupid naming:

Windows RT*

WinRT is the name of the API set for Metro Style apps.
Windows RT is the name of Windows on ARM devices.

/pedant

Its just a rehash of something else that's been in the works for a long time. MS Surface used to be a multi-touch table to be used in bars and what not.

This level of scorn against OEM is unwarranted (see my remarks above).

I know this website is more likely to attract coders than people in manufacturing, but please try to understand that hardware is far, far more difficult to make and ship than software.

"Where's the innovation? All I saw was innovation"

is basically what you said.

How has it failed? Everyone I've shown my phone to -- and I'm not exaggerating, everyone -- has asked me where I got it, where they can get one, can they play with it, does it run X app or Y game (almost always a "yes", Zune Market has the good popular apps). And I'm not even showing it off; people see me use it and ask about it. It's had a resounding impact on those who have seen it, and it's not even the best WP7 hardware out there. Just seeing a very capable and easy to use version of MS Office bundled with the device has caused a few coworkers and clients to commit to buying one.



Tablets like the Surface are exactly where Metro belongs. I think the hardware is amazing, the design concepts are stunning, and the fact that x86 and ARM are both offered is a good decision by Microsoft.

I have to admit though, I'm going to approach this release with caution. I know I won't be buying one; my budget simply doesn't allow for such a huge expense for a device I'll rarely have time to use. There's a reason my fiancée has the iPad and I stick to my smartphone; I work all the time and something that big would just get in my way out in the field.

Well I think you've hit on something that has been nagging at me. I think there is concern at Microsoft about the OEMs and competing Android systems by the same manufacturers. I think they know that Metro on the desktop or laptop just doesn't add a lot of value, though the under the covers stuff does. So they are coming out with this hardware to try and drive demand.

It does look cool, but price point will account for a lot. They can play some with that since they can load it with their software for basically nothing. It's not really a device I would purchase, but for folks that don't have tablets, or are Microsoft only, it's probably compelling. It will have a niche, how big will be a wait and see.

I think one needs to look no further than the device sales and Nokia to see that while Metro has its fans, largely it has failed to attract real interest in the market.

As for tech geeks the moment I heard Windows Phone 7 has a 'registry' I was floored. Has Microsoft learned nothing over the years ? Whats next? Does it support OLE/COM/ActiveX component interfaces along with the .net framework? lol.

I began to loathe the registry after working with and supporting Windows over many years. The last thing I want is to deal with an abomination like that on my phone.

Metro itself I don't think is bad, I'm just not sure it offers a better way of doing things vs Android or iOS. It strikes me as being different for the sake of being different.

I am just amazed that the sales guy CEO was OK with throwing a low selling interface onto a flagship product that brings in a large portion of the company's revenue.

I'm just a dude on the Internet of course and maybe this thing will be an amazing success. I hope so for the simple fact that I have a lot of friends and family who make their living at Microsoft but myself personally ... I'm just not excited. Windows 7 excited me. This thing along with Windows 8 just feels like a few steps backwards.

I hate touch keyboards, royally useless and frustrating for any kind of serious work for me.
That makes me interested if MS managed to pull off tactile KB that thin and if they hold any patents on that. I'd kill for such a cover for my Note.

It is an interresting combination between previously existing ideas.

It isn't tactile as a normal keyboard, it doesn't have feedback, but it might be good enough.

I wonder if it would be useful for a phone too, it would have to be a non-floppy kind; A sturdy cover.

But why does the touchcover have a touchpad ?

The touchpad was and still is a hack, a workaround.

The screen isn't a touchscreen or what ?

Edited 2012-06-19 11:04 UTC

Probably to help you cope with the fact that they haven't gotten around to making touch-friendly versions of Office, Windows Explorer, etc...

The touchpad might be there if only because of familiarity factor in desktop mode.

But how is it a workaround?

They are not a convicted monopolist for the ARM architecture. Ruling specifically sites the Intel arch.

They have 0% marketshare in ARM based computing.

That doesn't make their demands any less anti-competitive and it's obviously an attempt to use their existing desktop "monopoly" as leverage to pro-actively prevent competition in a market where they are currently a minor player.

No, because there is true and legitimate choice in the ARM market. Again, Microsoft has zero marketshare. Existing Windows applications do not run on Windows RT. It is a separate product.

Microsoft may have once held a monopolistic position on the computing landscape, but to say that it still does today is disingenuous. Computing has shifted to far more devices, beyond traditional PCs and true alternatives have sprung up.

If Microsoft makes any inroads in the tablet market it will be on the merits of Wndows RT itself.

And I quite enjoy the double speak a lot of people use with regards to Windows 8. Some say it won't sell, no one will like Metro, it'll cause Microsoft to lose revenue (give me a break) while at the same time decrying the unfair monopoly that Microsoft has and how its going to ensure Microsoft dominates, and how general purpose computing is over.

> And I quite enjoy the double speak a lot of people use > with regards to Windows 8. Some say it won't sell, no > one will like Metro, it'll cause Microsoft to lose revenue (give me a break) while at the same time decrying the unfair monopoly that Microsoft has and how its going to ensure Microsoft dominates, and how general purpose computing is over

There's not contradiction in this logic, while Win8 may flop in traditional MS turf (esp. enterprise) it makes an interesting tablet offering, a serious treat to Android in ARM tablet space. And that's where it's restrictions may shape hardware standards (ARM PC) to exclude Linux and any other oses for that matter.

You do realise that anti-trust laws actually cover cross market actions.

Also, computing landscape is not a market. Come back when there is no massive disincentive for PC manufacturers of releasing computers without an OS.

Though it does not necessarily mean that Microsoft will act in an anti-competitive manner.

Edited 2012-06-19 13:03 UTC

There won't be, once Microsoft forces their way in. Choice will go down the shitter once Windows 8 starts being released on tablets, because ALL of these tablets will be released with it (which will in turn popularize ARM even more) will downright *refuse* to run anything that Microsoft doesn't either create themselves... or bless with their key for a hundred bucks.

Once Windows 8 has turned Android, and probably iOS, into much more minor players, it will proceed to popularize the ARM platform for traditional laptops and desktops. The only problem? By this time, unless the government has already gotten into the situation due to anti-trust issues, ARM as an architecture will already be royally fucked. It will have already succeeded in making ARM a Microsoft-only playground, as long as you get Windows 8 with the machine.


They still have a hell of a lot of power and tend to use it in extremely abusive ways.

Does your hatred of Microsoft consume you whole life because it certainly seems to.

So now apparently you know the entire life of a stranger on the Internet so well that you can claim his "Microsoft hatred" consumes his entire life. So, Mr. Know-It-All... what are a few of the non-computing things I enjoy doing? You know--those things that are so far outside of the scope of anything Microsoft would be doing, because they have... you know... absolutely NOTHING to do with computers. Little do you know, computing is only one part of my interests... and when a company (Microsoft) comes around to fuck up the future of entirely new classes of computer hardware based on the ARM architecture by locking out the consumer's choice and forcing them into Windows (while placing the Windows tax on new types of hardware), damn right I'll get pissed.

And just to make it clear, I don't *hate* Microsoft itself; what I "hate" is its crooked business practices, which it tends to use over and over, often illegally or of questionable legal status... and obviously those things don't reflect too well on the company itself.

Like any other company, Microsoft deserves praise when they do something right and a good slamming when they make questionable to downright bad choices. Starting with Windows Vista, they deservedly got slammed. Starting with Windows 7, they received praises, and rightfully so. With Windows 8, they deserve plenty of slamming--for Metro and their attempts to "obsolete" the traditional desktop on all machines, as well as for their turning all ARM-based machines that come with Windows 8 into Windows sandboxes that are useless for anything else, just to name a couple things.

Your anger says and you behaviour in the comments says otherwise.

Sorry, but I call bullshit. Microsoft's desktop monopoly doesn't buy it squat in the ARM market. This tablet won't run any of the desktop software. They're basically starting from scratch here. So, these so-calledm"anticompetitive" effects exist only in your imagination.

Doesn't mean they won't try to use it.



Yeah, because companies never try to get an advantage over their competition. What reason other than stifling the competition could there possible be for demanding that everyone else be practically locked out?
Security? Yeah, if there ever was something to call bullshit on it's that.

Explain how.



Again, explain how. Short answer: You can't. Because it's BS.

Are you saying that they're not requiring that secure boot can not be disabled on arm devices running windows 8? Or are you saying that their requirement has nothing to do with stifling competition and is instead because...ehm...uh....yeah, why exactly?
Why does MS try so hard to prevent me from using a device I own to run what I want?

Windows 8 CAN'T be really used as any kind of effective leverage, because it presents no competitive advantage to Windows RT.

You can't just reply "Yeah, but what if" to something which is demonstrably impossible. The architectures are different, meaning everything from applications to drivers are incompatible.

Windows RT doesn't have the clout that Windows has. So Microsoft can't really use their success on the Desktop to force success in the ARM world.

Microsoft has every right to dictate the terms of using their software (SecureBoot forced on ARM), and you're free as a consumer to not use it. Its not a monopolistic abuse, its how they chose to do business.

When Apple locks their bootloaders its not a monopolistic abuse, its the walled garden they choose to let you play in for $499. Don't like it, don't play.

The Win RT tablet includes MS Office Home & Student. That defines it as a mass market consumer product. The Win 8 Pro tablet is an enterprise grade ultrabook for the Windows eco-system.

Keep it simple, stupid.

Lets forget the fact that you can actually buy a key for relatively cheap.

Ever hear of this thing called a "trademark"? People are going to see Windows 8 as the newer, better version of Windows 7 and automatically, Microsoft has a large number of people buying it for that reason. Not to mention people who will buy anything as soon as it comes out and then get bored when the novelty wears off. And obviously, a large number of machines will be coming up with Windows, because so many companies are in Microsoft's pockets. It all adds up in Microsoft's favor in the form of raw numbers.

Edited 2012-06-19 21:19 UTC

like the eee pad transformer ?

Hell no. As a transformer owner its one of the worst pieces of tech I've had the misfortunes of owning.

Buggy POS.

That's interesting, my best friend has one and he loves it. He's never mentioned any issues with it, and we discuss our tech gear the way muscle car enthusiasts discuss new carburetors and engine timing.

I've played with it some and I must say it's very nice hardware, though a bit heavy for my taste even without the keyboard. I was used to the Nook Color though, which to me is a nearly perfect Android tablet. I'd say the Transformer is a notch or two above the average netbook, if you have no need for x86 support that is.

It makes for a great demo. I loved it initially. The small bugs get to you.

That, and ASUS stock roms are painfully slow and unoptimized. If you try to go custom ROM the dock starts fucking up because it uses custom ASUS drivers.

The thing is just way to slow to be a dual core or quad core device. Its unbelievable how laggy the thing gets.

Then there's the stupid non standard charger. Good luck charging it with a wall piece that's not made by ASUS. It'll take you 8 hours to get from 0-10% battery. No. Lie. Treat your charger like gold.


One thing I will note, with or without the dock the battery life is superb.

I'll have to ask my friend about that; not long after he got it he had toyed with the idea of alternate ROMs, but I think he decided he liked the stock ROM especially after the ICS update.



That was my only issue with the Nook Color; use the included USB cable and adapter, and you could have a full charge in less than two hours. Use a standard micro USB cable, even with a high output adapter, and it was an all day affair. It was even worse when trying to charge and use the tablet at the same time on a regular cable. Not only would it not charge, depending on CPU usage and screen brightness you could fully discharge the device while it was plugged in.

Just one remark : as strange as it may sound, there is no standard spec for a USB2 port that can deliver lots of current. All fast cellphone chargers are based on manufacturer-specific tricks like shorting pins together.

That's what happen when people take a port designed for data transfers and say "meh, it will work as a power input just fine" for the sake of cool design.

Edited 2012-06-19 06:38 UTC

+1 Did not know. Interesting!

Correcting myself : there have been effort in the direction of standardizing high-current USB in the past few years (such as the Battery Charging Specification of 2010), the standards are just not in widespread use at the moment.

Edited 2012-06-19 16:59 UTC

I agree that the charger, and its cable are the most nagging point of the eee pad transformer (if only there was some ). But apart from that, I don't use android on this anymore, and as a linux laptop, it's pretty great, can last 2 days on battery, have a C/C++ compiler handy, and also mono for some cross platform coding compiling.

The storage is quite slow, and the 1Gb RAM (shared with video) is very limiting. But I love it overall.

You can create your own charger that will work with the Transformer by just feeding 13-15V at 2amp through the USB cable adapter you got with your device...

That's all their own charger does, it just uses extra pins in the USB3 style cable shorted together to tell it whether to put out 15V because it's the transformer cable, or to only put out 5V of the USB standard.

I made my own charger that supplies 13V and it works great... The trickiest part was DO NOT REVERSE THE POLARITY.

Also, I'm just "some guy on the internet", do your own research before breaking your tablet

Edited 2012-06-19 20:10 UTC

Nelson, I think you never miss an opportunity to show your bias.

I'm terribly sorry that I used a product, and didn't like it. I won't let it happen again.

Sort of but with an optional version with a much larger battery. The Eee Pad has a 3300 mAh battery that extends the life by ~16 hours (measured playing 720p video). Many laptops are between 4400 to mAh 7200 mAh but they are limited in battery space because they need room for other components.

You can buy replacement 7200mAh laptop batteries for $20 with free shipping and they are 1 lb. A medium sized laptop is 6 lbs and a heavy laptop is 10 lbs. So 6 7200mAh batteries would be about $100 and weigh about as much as a medium sized laptop and give you 43,200 mAh which would work out to like 200 hrs of use on a tablet. There are lighter/more expensive battery technologies that could improve that more but you get the idea.

Instead of a $1,000 laptop with more horse power than you need and a 6 hour battery we could replace them with tablets ($500) + dock ($150) that will be close to the same size and weight that will destroy the battery life of a laptop.

You should talk to Asus about this idea, I'm sure that they will be interested

If we exclude companies based on ethics reasons, we aren't left with many options. I'd say Apple is far more brutal in both litigation and being closed than Microsoft.

An obvious answer is to get one of the android based tablets. Some of them don't even give money to google and the manufacturer/distributor keeps all the money without any OS tax to any of the big three.

Oh yes, those big, noble multinational OEMs who assert those software patents we all hate so much. The one's who take months to deliver updates because they'd rather you just buy a new device.

Ah, yes them. Marvelous guys aren't they?

Give me a break.

Problem solved, just buy a Raspberry Pi board, 3D print a case with a MakerBot or RepRap, scrounge a screen from a PSOne, a power supply from a dead 5v device and voila! You have your very own homemade tablet computer, ready to run GNU/Linux. You can even throw in a touchscreen overlay for around $20 via eBay.

Oh, wait...the RPi is made in China by one of those shady multinational OEMs. Dammit!!


(BTW Nelson, I just realized this is my fourth reply to you. I promise I'm not stalking or trolling you, I guess you're just fun to talk to.)

Actually, it's Google who shares some search/ad revenue with oems/operators not the other way round.

Really which manufacturer of Android-hardware does not send money to Microsoft because of Linux-patents ?

Amazon with their Kindle ?

All the other do.

Actually, because Android is doing so well, Microsoft make more money from Android than WP7 at the moment.

Edited 2012-06-19 09:26 UTC

Oh, right, you only use stuff from "principled" companies like Google (who spies on you, forces its G+ social networking POS on you, trying its damnedest to de-anonymize you, cooperates with government surveillance and censoring, etc, pays zero corporate taxes, etc) and Apple (who sues everyone who dares to compete with them, locks down its hardware to prevent competing software like Flash, turns a blind eye to human rights abuses in China in order to maximize profits, files ridiculous design patents when there is clearly prior art, etc)...

>human rights abuses in China

People flipped out when foxcon employees commit suicide but they have 1.2 million employees. The suicide rate for Foxcon employees is less than the national average in China and isn't terribly different than the US but the suicides makes a nice sensationalist story for ad revenue so reporters ignore that.

Because of the media attention they have restricted workers' overtime to 36 hours a month (max) from 80 hours a month. You think 36 hours of over time in a month is a human rights abuse? There were several times where I have worked more overtime than that in a week in the US.

I remember being in college in the 80's and watching our generation, and others, change Apartheid thru boycotts, and even took on the Chinese sweatshops thru boycotts, bringing on some changes. The global efforts of the consumer brought about changes for the better then. It's sad today that we are so wrapped up in our stuff that we try to simply justify abhorrent behavior by companies and countries.

Seriously, you don't know WTF you're talking about. You don't live in a dormitory under armed guard. You are able to go home at night and relax. These people are herded like cattle, and forced to work large amounts of overtime, with little time and space to rest. They can't leave. They can't go home to see their families. All in the name of Apple profits. Yay! Feel better? You--like many other Apple sycophants--are in denial.

Working at Foxconn is optional and there is huge demand for positions at Foxconn. Food and housing is free and I found nothing about armed guards at dorms but even if there were, there are armed guards at public schools in the US.

From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides

"The suicide rate at Foxconn during the suicide spate remained lower than that of the general Chinese population,[8] and the Foxconn deaths may have been a product of economic conditions external to the company"

Foxconn suicides are lower than the national average even on a bad year (source: http://www.economist.com/node/16231588 ). They typicially have just a few a year but as I pointed out they have 1.2 million employees.

I have personally known a couple people in the US that committed suicide and I don't personally know anywhere close to millions of people. Anyone saying the suicides are proof of poor working conditions are spouting nonsense.

On their worst year they had ~15 suicides. In 2007 and 2008 alone, 255 active duty (American) soldiers committed suicide. That is ~125 suicides a year and there about the amount of employees at Foxconn as there are soldiers on active duty. so:

The suicide rate of active duty American soldiers is over 10 times higher than it is for Foxconn workers.

Yeah, yeah, I get it. The Apple fanboy line is that Foxconn is just a media-generated problem. But the fact that Foxconn needs to put fucking nets around the perimeter of their buildings to prevent their employees from jumping off speaks greater volumes than your bullshit responses.

They had 4 suicides last year out of 1.2 million people (compared to 125 in the army) and they don't feel even that is acceptable but buying nets to prevent suicides make them evil now? You have failed to make your case.

You also called me an Apple fanboy and I don't own a single Apple product. I'm just looking at the facts which I understand can be pretty unpopular.

Another fact is that Apple is hardly the only company who Foxconn assembles products for (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn#Major_customers ). Acer, HP, Intel, Dell, Samsung, Microsoft, Toshibam Sony, Cisco, all Foxconn clients.

Probably 80% of the things you own were probably made in China by companies no better than Foxconn but there you are singling out Apple for human rights violations. Does the media decide all of your opinions for you?

Edited 2012-06-21 01:11 UTC

"It seems to be great on the surface" that has to be a pun ;-)

If it's their hardware, I don't think it's fair to complain about a locked bootloader/BIOS/whatever. When they are forcing OEMs to do that, that is a different issue.

Actually, to comply with the "Designed for Windows 8" logo, the option to disable secure boot on the x86 architecture is required. At least the x86 version of the Microsoft Surface can have secure boot disabled.

Yes, that scream you heard was Elop as the blade slide between his shoulders. Wish some of us had seen that coming (ahem).

How do you know Elop didn't know? I mean really, this will hardly affect him personally or professionally.

Have you checked how much Nokia stock he owns personally? Are you sure that overseeing the demise rather than the resurgence of Nokia won't affect him professionally?

3rd largest Nokia stockholder among the senior leadership. He has his skin in the game.

I'm more than certain that Nokia can rise to the task and engineer something comparable or better.

That's the entire point, to push OEMs to do better.

With the cheap plastic-y phones they've put out recently, I'd say they need to step up their game. I used to think Samsung made the cheapest, flimsiest smartphones out there but Nokia's recent phones seem like they'd break if you set them down too hard.

Is it so difficult to make a phone out of metallic parts these days?

Huh? Have you ever played with a Lumia? Pretty damned nice phone.

Yes, Lumia 610 and 710. Horrible build quality.

You conveniently neglected to talk about Lumia 900. I wonder why. Axe => grind.

Let's reconstruct the discussion points:
Morgan: "With the cheap plastic-y phones they've put out recently"
tomcat: "Have you ever played with a Lumia?"
jalexoid: "Yes, Lumia 610 and 710. Horrible build quality."

So unless they changed Lumia 610 and Lumia 710 names...

Nice attempt at limiting discussion to lower-end models, while not talking about the phone that is widely regarded as one of the best smartphones on the market, the Lumia 900.

Edited 2012-06-21 00:13 UTC

I haven't used the 610, but I quite liked the 710. It felt sturdy.

Yes I have, and I wasn't the least bit impressed. And it's not like I have anything against Nokia; one of my all time favorite phones was the N900 and it was a bit rough around the edges from a design standpoint.

I just wish Nokia and Samsung would stop putting out cheap plastic crap and go back to the great build quality they both used to have. There was a time when you could pick up a feature phone or dumbphone from either company and it just felt solid, even with the plastic casing. Their recent phones, however, feel like those toy cellphones you see in the grocery store candy aisles.

I'm not saying they need to be building two pound metal bricks, I just wish they would consider the fact that some people don't upgrade every few months and prefer a more rugged, substantial device.

What? I can something else - STUPID FASHION OF MAKING PHONES OUT OF GLASS AND METAL.

Phone, a device which you hold in your hand while operating it ...made out of materials with intrinsic high thermal conductivity ...so often feeling unpleasantly cold.

I doubt pushing OEMs to do better was the point. Generating revenue probably was.

Hoping that phone company could be revived by a tablet is Elop naive .

I might buy it if it could, but Microsoft has encrypted the bios to ensure I can't. DRM, meet hardware.

Just as well. I'd rather support companies that will respect me in the morning.

They may not have a traditional BIOS; most ARM devices use bootcode stored on the flash ROM or bootable SD card, and I'm willing to bet the Intel version will use UEFI.

But I'm sure you're correct in that they will lock out any other OSes. That's a shame given how nice the hardware is. Then again, I've felt no desire to install anything else on my WP7 phone, which is odd for me.

The moment it hits the market XDA will take breaking it as a pride point. XBOX have been broken, PS3 have been broken, no reason this one wont be.
Of course, it make take large part of its useful lifespan.

Besides street cred, not sure how interesting it is to void a warranty to crack UEFI.

Edited 2012-06-19 08:50 UTC

The only ARM-tablets Microsoft will support are all locked down UEFI (I don't know about the ARM-phones).

Are you referring to that Android / Ubuntu thing that they demo'd a while ago?

If so I doubt it will come to this. They are sitting on the source, it isn't public. They're waiting for a manufacturer, so it'll undoubtedly be a big fail.

People have powerful phones now. People have powerful tablets now. No reason not to let us install Ubuntu alongside Android now.

Not going to happen, at least for the ARM tablets. Microsoft is locking down the bootloader hard to prevent people from running software they want on the hardware they OWN. I will be shopping elsewhere, no matter how cool or shiny these tablets are otherwise, they are still crippled by the OS.

Reading this made me wonder (again!) why we still need, in this day and age, "a driver" to simply print something. MS could have made this seamless.

Edited 2012-06-20 15:15 UTC

Ask the printer companies, they are the ones that push out crap tech.

Consumer grade printers are deliberately shit ... I thought this was well known?

You might want to check Intel based Orange SanDiego.

He's probably been reading the comments on slashdot and here.

Pricing will be competitive with current OEM prices for Windows 8 and Windows RT devices.

Availability is supposed to be rather soon for the Windows RT device (Julyish I thought I heard floated around) and a few weeks after Windows 8 GA for the Windows 8 Pro device.

So it'll be as cheap an ARM Tablet for the WinRT version, and as cheap as an Intel Ultrabook. I'm estimating $399 or $499 for the WinRT device and $799 or $899 for the Windows 8 Pro device.

And I don't think any OEM has released Windows 8/WinRT battery life estimates.

What I care more about is concrete specs:
What kind of GPU are in the chips?
Clockspeeds on the processor
Will they have 3G or 4G or just WiFi?

Apple can't sue MSFT for shit. They signed broad,cross-licensing agreements when MS bailed them out a decade ago.

Still Apple can sue all OEMs that will take this as an reference design. So MS basically alone in this game.

Not if MS can sublicense the patents.

MS sublicencing patents only warrants they will not sue themselves, but no protection from other entities.
They could of course sign an agreement with other patent holders to span their xlicencing deal to selected partners, but so far I haven't heard about anything like that.

BS. You don't know the terms of the cross-licensing agreements.

This isn't Android, Microsoft protects its OEMs.

It just stabs them in the back from time to time.

You mean like how Google offers absolutely zero patent protection to its OEMs?

You know, to ward off the INJUNCTIONS that HTC and Samsung routinely have placed on them?

Oh, right.

You might want to read up on the definition of stabbing in the back.

Completely leaving OEMs out to dry (which google has done) is a stab in the back. Well actually, it isn't, its more bald faced than that. Its blatant disregard.

Microsoft would NEVER have let the bullshit that OEMs under Android are being put through stand.

Why would you want to put worse shit on it?

Because Linux is the perfect OS and never had any problems ever.
</sarcasm>

The Intel version might have luck running Linux (The issue would likely be Touchscreen and other sensor drivers) but on ARM? Likely not, unless you're comfortable with a SecureBoot signed Fedora distro.

The French doesn't hide the fact that several Apple presentations - including keynotes - had similar failures as well.

The surface tablet froze at the precise moment that Sinofsky said "I can browse smoothly". You couldn't make that shit up, it's perfect comedic timing. It was a relief after a dose of Ballmer (who I thought looked oddly unhappy and downbeat).

This period is such an intense and dangerous inflection point for Microsoft, they really have never faced anything like it. They thought they were under threat from Netscape and the web but they didn't have to change their business model as a software company in order to see that one off. This time the whole tech business paradigm is shifting in a fundamental way and developing software and hardware separately seems to make less and less business sense. For me the Surface presentation left more unanswered questions than answers. The lack of a firm price or release date is telling. Remember that in order for this new hardware business venture to succeed Microsoft has to not just make these things in a reliable way, and sell them in large numbers, but must be able to organise their production processes and supply chains in such way so that they can make a reasonable profit whilst at the very least matching Apple on price. That's pretty tricky.

It's easy to get lost in the surface hype (no pun intended) and specs game. But this is about business and which company or companies will thrive and grow in the new tech mobile device markets and Microsoft and Google (who I expect will also launch their own 'awesome' tablet at their forthcoming IO) must compete against giants such as Samsung and Apple who have decades of experience and a huge head start in building supply chains and product delivery systems.

I thought it was indicative of Microsoft's insecurity as they move into the hardware game that they had to talk up their track record as a hardware maker. And what does that track record consist of? Mice and keyboards and a gaming console that suffered horrible production problems and has never generated a return on capital.

The next couple of years is going to be really, really interesting.

What have Apple presentations got to do with this Microsoft one?

If you really want to compare them you'd notice Microsoft doesn't seem very motivated to demo the device, leading to believe it's very beta. And unlike Apple it doesn't tell us a release date or a price, also leading to believe they don't yet know when they'll finish the device or what it will cost.

That said, it does look like a very interesting device. My feeling says it's more suited for business than personal use though.

It seems it's best used in landscape mode. That's how the stand folds out, the location of the home button and the way the keyboard attaches.

At least is appears to be better than any Android or RIM tablet, but that's not so hard to achieve.

WTF are you talking about? Go to Gizmodo or TheVerge, and read their reviews. They've got reviews with photographs of their editors holding and playing with the devices.

Why do I have to go there? Why couldn't Microsoft do this at their own presentation event?

I don't want stills, I want to see video. The spare moments some Microsoft person actually used it we had to do with a cameraman peeking over his shoulder.

The Surface tabletop was rebranded to "PixelSense" a while ago.
see pixelsence.com (or, see the link at the bottom of the new surface.com).

There's no reason why the Surface brand can't be expanded to include tablets all the way up to wall-sized interactive displays.

Linux has won in every catagory except desktop/laptop and tablet.

A lot also have a GUI, just take the smartphone or even TV market as an example.

Not that the smartphone market is as big as the PC market yet.

Even so I wouldn't call it a complete failure.

Linux LOST in the mobile phone category. Android is not Linux, it's an abomination of the ideals of FOSS.

The phone isn't fully open, is incompatible with the mainland kernel, and drivers aren't benefiting Linux as a whole.

Unless you count a black box of proprietary hardware and binary blobs as a "Win"

Not that I don't agree with you.

But only one piece is missing from the mainline kernel, everything else has been or will soon be merged.

The missing piece is called WaveLock:

http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/app-builder/linux-kernel-33-reunit...

Wakelocks have always been at the center of the controversy. They're not a minor feature, it's an entire power management scheme.

I think I read about a month ago that there was movement again to a solution.

There can be all sorts of ideals in FOSS.

For example, the BSD folks accept that their code is reused in commercial software. Linux is in GPLv2 instead of GPLv3 as Linus never rejected "Tivoisation"...

There is some work to merge parts of the android patches back into the main kernel tree but, at the end, even forks respect the open source ideals.

Stallman himself had to accept that during the Emacs vs XEmacs war.

I am also surprised by the comments made here.

However, I don't think this is as simplistic as you are making it to be.

It is a tablet but not Android nor iOS (unless it can freed from its secure boot). Oups - was forgetting RIM's Playbook as a third (distant) alternative .....

There is no legacy X86 apps and code on the Windows 8 for the ARM architecture.

If this product takes off, then it would not be surprising if Windows 8 is the last X86 capable one and essentially the end of the desktop as a user interface metaphor (for Microsoft).

Would I buy one? Likely not - I'll await for a clone especially if it can be jailbroken. I desire the device but not the default OS which will come with it. After 20 years on corporate enforced Windows - I want to be free.

By-the-way, aren't there rumors going around about Apple ditching the X86 architecture and moving to ARM for everything?

There are actually two Surface models.

The higher end one has:

- A full HD 1080p screen (with bonded glass and great viewing angles)
- 64 GB and 128GB of storage
- DisplayPort for outputting greater than 1080p
- A 22nm Core i5 processor which bests anything in any ultrabook announced
- Micro SDCX port
- Support for legacy Windows applications
- Pen digitizer support for writing

It is the uber tablet for productivity

You've forgotten :

- An insane price

I'm not sure that the "ultimate" device which can do everything and replace eBooks, LCD tablets, laptops and desktops (connected to a large screen) actually exists. With its small screen, the current Surface will hardly be as "productive" as a 500$ laptop with a 15" screen.

In some respects, with the "cloud" and portable removable media, such thing does not need to exist : Different devices to access your data.

Depending on the success (or lack thereof) of this product, Microsoft may decide to go the Apple way and restrict some of its software to Microsoft branded hardware. They do that for Xbox, they may do that for phones once they put their hands on Nokia, they may be tempted to do that for tablets : Hubris...

Errrrr ... you're not capable of folding the cover behind the device, and using the software keyboard? It's competing directly with an iPad. The fact that the cover doubles as a keyboard is a bonus, not a detraction.

With windows8? Hahahahaha
This is Zune, tablet edition

Edited 2012-06-19 21:54 UTC

Said anonymous Internet guy. Yawn.

It's amusing to see dorks like you rooting for Microsoft to fail here. Don't you tools understand that competition is a good thing?

Edited 2012-06-19 22:16 UTC

If only companies like MS believed in that too...

Yes, yhat's why I don't want Microsoft to have any share of the mobile device market. Just take a look at what they did to the PC market (consumer lock-in, abuse of patents, abuse of standards, microsoft tax, FUD etc). The move to mobile devices is our chance to finally break free from Microsoft.

With that background it doesn't suprise me that they are using a protection racket to hurt android.

So yes, more competition is good but it should be from other companies than Microsoft.

Edited 2012-06-20 10:45 UTC

YAWN ... this isn't 1999.

Yes, it's 21st century, MS has really changed, they are now in patent trolling and partner raping business

Edited 2012-06-21 13:56 UTC

Hello they open sourced their whole MVC and Web API frameworks.

I'm not rooting for them to fail, I'm just making the observation that they are failing.

Only them can do anything about it. I can only laugh.

Also, it gives me something to do while I'm sitting here waiting for that terrible piece of shit visual studio to take 10 minutes to build a medium sized project on a goddamn 4 core cpu. In the consumer electronics space at least they can't get away with selling awful products, which is refreshing.

Edited 2012-06-21 15:25 UTC

"...the potential of Windows 8 to deliver rich, brand-safe ad experiences that will add value to consumers and increase engagement opportunities for marketers..."

F'k yeah, still too many lost opportunities and wasted space not adding value.