Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 19th Jun 2012 00:10 UTC
Windows So, the Microsoft announcement - taking place as I write this, 01:45 in my timezone - turns out to be a bigger deal than expected. Microsoft just announced it's going full-on hardware - the company announced a new tablet called 'Surface', and boy, is this thing something to behold. Microsoft's hardware partners? They're not happy right now. Update: Here's Microsoft's official Surface site. I believe someone coined the phrase 'sexy as a succubus' in the comments about Vizio? Stealin' it! Update II: They aren't just taking the iPad head-on - this is a straight-up MacBook Air competitor.
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Want!!!
by tomcat on Tue 19th Jun 2012 00:20 UTC
tomcat
Member since:
2006-01-06

Bring it on...

Reply Score: 5

RE: Want!!!
by Radio on Tue 19th Jun 2012 08:43 UTC in reply to "Want!!!"
Radio Member since:
2009-06-20

That is the biggest problem, and the only page they still haven't taken from Apple's book: one should not present a product without a price and a shipping date.

People are talking about the Surface, but how long? And how will they react, months from now, when they will discover the steep price of the tablet? Because make no mistake: between the Magnesium+PVD with micron tolerances, the gorilla glass and the fact they need to avoid competiting with their own OEM, expect a very, very high price, even if MS tries to sell it at a loss like a game console. Why do you think nodody pulled it before? Eh.

Reply Score: 11

RE[2]: Want!!!
by unclefester on Wed 20th Jun 2012 06:50 UTC in reply to "RE: Want!!!"
unclefester Member since:
2007-01-13

It is probably a "halo" item purely designed to generate publicity. MS doesn't need to sell a single one of these tablets to achieve their goal.

Edited 2012-06-20 06:51 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Want!!!
by fmaxwell on Fri 22nd Jun 2012 10:48 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Want!!!"
fmaxwell Member since:
2005-11-13

If their goal is to convince people that Microsoft sells vaporware, then not shipping a single Surface could do it.

If their goal is to convince Dell/HP/Compaq/Acer/etc. that Microsoft is going to compete with their own OEM customers, then Surface could do it.

If their goal is to reinforce the idea that Zune, Kin, etc. were not flukes and that Microsoft really can't compete with Apple outside of the traditional desktop, then having insignificant sales of Surface could achieve that goal.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Want!!!
by unclefester on Sat 23rd Jun 2012 03:53 UTC in reply to "RE: Want!!!"
unclefester Member since:
2007-01-13

Because make no mistake: between the Magnesium+PVD with micron tolerances, the gorilla glass and the fact they need to avoid competiting with their own OEM, expect a very, very high price, even if MS tries to sell it at a loss like a game console. Why do you think nodody pulled it before? Eh.


It is simply a myth that magnesium cases, gorilla glass etc are very expensive. A magnesium case is simply die cast and CNC machined by an OEM supplier - the cost is only a couple of bucks.

A couple of years ago I sourced high end (Rolex quality) stainless steel watch bracelets in China. They cost a mere 59 cents each in bulk.

Reply Score: 2

About Damn Time
by n4cer on Tue 19th Jun 2012 00:27 UTC
n4cer
Member since:
2005-07-06

This is something I've been wanting MS to do for a long time. At the very least, particularly when covering new ground, release their own small line of hardware that serve as best practice reference designs to deliver the message to OEMs, "THIS is what you need to be doing!".

OEMs shouldn't be angered. They already support non-Microsoft devices. They partner closely with MS competitors like Google while often giving lackluster efforts towards MS initiatives (TabletPC, Origami, and any most PlaysForSure devices say, Hi!). Turnabout is fair play.

MS has been creating reference designs and new technologies for OEMs to integrate into their systems. They've tried to get them to be creative. This move is way overdue, and, for me, very much welcome.

There's plenty of room to innovate. The Windows 8 systems shown at Computex, particularly by Asus, are some of the more creative takes on PC hardware I've seen in a long time. MS is simply another option, and a force for OEMs to up their game and breathe life back into the industry. Even though I'm very interested in the devices they've shown, I'm also still interested in what's been shown by OEMs, and what's to come.

One other point -- MS is, at least initially, limiting the availability of their PCs to Microsoft stores (online, and brick and mortar).

Reply Score: 5

RE: About Damn Time
by Radio on Tue 19th Jun 2012 08:50 UTC in reply to "About Damn Time"
Radio Member since:
2009-06-20

MS has been creating reference designs and new technologies for OEMs to integrate into their systems. They've tried to get them to be creative. This move is way overdue, and, for me, very much welcome.

There is a world of difference between making a nice shiny prototype and making the same thing on an industrial scale at an acceptable price point and without too many returns. Do you know how much do the awesome computers you see on display in conferences and trade shows cost? 10.000 $.

Don't believe me?

I was surprised to find fairly polished Windows 8 tablets at Computex, and it turns out I was right to be surprised. Everyone worked overtime to get devices ready by Computex, in most cases resorting hand building prototypes to the tune of $10K a piece.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5968/acers-iconia-w700-tablet-windows...

I don't know for you, but dividing the price of a product by ten (while increasing production, keeping quality high, and starting new products) is not small job. Try to work in manufacturing for once. MS poured tons of money in this, spent hours and $ making tons of prototypes, and the tablet crashed during the demo - and they have neither a price nor a shipping date.

Edited 2012-06-19 08:53 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: About Damn Time
by Nelson on Tue 19th Jun 2012 09:42 UTC in reply to "RE: About Damn Time"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

That's nice conjecture, but the fact that this will be a shipping product seems to fly in the face of that defense. Obviously, the Surface Tablet has the potential to be mass produced, else it wouldnt be being sold to the masses.

What does Microsoft have that other OEMs dont? Besides drive? I mean, perhaps some of the OEM stuff is defensible to a small degree, but there is absolutely zero, none, ziltch justification for the utter GARBAGE they routinely spew out.

If you're going to come with the "its too hard excuse" then get out of the OEM business.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: About Damn Time
by JAlexoid on Tue 19th Jun 2012 12:52 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: About Damn Time"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

That's nice conjecture, but the fact that this will be a shipping product seems to fly in the face of that defense.

Sorry, it will be a fact when it will actually be a fact. The only facts here are Microsoft's gorgeous design and their statements.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: About Damn Time
by lucas_maximus on Wed 20th Jun 2012 14:34 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: About Damn Time"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Oh whatever.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: About Damn Time
by JAlexoid on Thu 21st Jun 2012 00:21 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: About Damn Time"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

Yes, facts be damned.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: About Damn Time
by lucas_maximus on Thu 21st Jun 2012 09:09 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: About Damn Time"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Sorry but the anything but Microsoft attitude gets fucking old.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: About Damn Time
by devnet on Thu 21st Jun 2012 15:02 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: About Damn Time"
devnet Member since:
2007-01-16

what gets fracking old is people thinking Microsoft is nothing more than a house for crappy products.

Windows 7 phones are pure beauty.

This coming from a Linux user and blogger. The only thing Microsoft really had to do was get hardware in line to make this tablet a reality.

And you're doubting one of the largest tech companies in the world can do that. I think you should think about that for a bit.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: About Damn Time
by Radio on Tue 19th Jun 2012 13:13 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: About Damn Time"
Radio Member since:
2009-06-20

You may already have forgotten, but before the Surface Tablet, Microsoft created the Surface Table. Remember the price?

10.000$.

And don't begin to tell me "it's bigger so it's normal to be so expensive". Miniaturization is expensive.

What does Microsoft have that other OEMs dont?
Billions of dollars of cash from years of a successful monopoly in business and consumer software?

Since when does Apple pull out ultra-sleek monobloc devices made of glass and alloys? Since they got successfull with the iPod and iTunes and got enough money to overstep competition, pay upfront for whole factories, hundreds of machining machines, tons of rare materials. The OEM are all clinging to razor-thin margins - the result of competition. Disruption is coming from outside of the OEM battlefield, from players armored with tons of cash (earned elsewhere) ready to be poured and lost. If the surface tablet fails, the impact on MS margins will be negligible. What OEM can say that?

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: About Damn Time
by Nelson on Tue 19th Jun 2012 18:55 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: About Damn Time"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

You may already have forgotten, but before the Surface Tablet, Microsoft created the Surface Table. Remember the price?

10.000$.

And don't begin to tell me "it's bigger so it's normal to be so expensive". Miniaturization is expensive.


Surface (the table) used fundamentally different technology, and still does on a product thats not mass audience viable yet, so economies of scale don't drive prices down.

In fact, the Surface (table) 2 came down in price significantly. Half the cost of the original.



Since when does Apple pull out ultra-sleek monobloc devices made of glass and alloys? Since they got successfull with the iPod and iTunes and got enough money to overstep competition, pay upfront for whole factories, hundreds of machining machines, tons of rare materials. The OEM are all clinging to razor-thin margins - the result of competition. Disruption is coming from outside of the OEM battlefield, from players armored with tons of cash (earned elsewhere) ready to be poured and lost. If the surface tablet fails, the impact on MS margins will be negligible. What OEM can say that?


That grants them some leeway, but the truth is that a lot of what they've done is inexcusable. The pure amount of bullshit they load onto devices is abhorrent and they suck at software, yet insist on forcing it down users throats.

The terrible experience doesn't end at the hardware, it runs wholly through the software and corrupts otherwise decent platforms (Android stock for example).

I'm sorry, but I can't blame Microsoft for being fed up with OEMs shopping around form factors from 2002 Tablet PCs.

Reply Score: 3

WOW
by dtravis7 on Tue 19th Jun 2012 00:34 UTC
dtravis7
Member since:
2005-07-14

Looks very good. Might give Apple a run for their $$$ and with real ports, I just might get one and ditch the iPad.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by viton
by viton on Tue 19th Jun 2012 00:40 UTC
viton
Member since:
2005-08-09

finally a decent ARM "laptop". I'll get this ASAP.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by viton
by dvhh on Tue 19th Jun 2012 01:57 UTC in reply to "Comment by viton"
dvhh Member since:
2006-03-20

The asus eee pad transformer, is already a better ARM laptop.

Reply Score: 6

RE[2]: Comment by viton
by viton on Tue 19th Jun 2012 03:07 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by viton"
viton Member since:
2005-08-09

Android is ok for phone, but not for tablet. I already have tegra2 android laptop. It was only useful to install linux.
Surface is pretending to be a solid product, unlike yet another device to run unsupported geek OS.

Edited 2012-06-19 03:13 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by viton
by dvhh on Tue 19th Jun 2012 07:11 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by viton"
dvhh Member since:
2006-03-20

True that I mostly use it with linux, but as a linux laptop it fits the decent ARM laptop (with a nice keyboard to start with)

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Comment by viton
by tidux on Sun 24th Jun 2012 14:05 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by viton"
tidux Member since:
2011-08-13

If you unlock the bootloader on the Transformer, you can install the most mature desktop operating system available for ARM: GNU/Linux.

Reply Score: 2

WOW.
by Nelson on Tue 19th Jun 2012 00:41 UTC
Nelson
Member since:
2005-11-29

I'm glad to say I was wrong about them competing with OEMs. I'm unsure of the ramifications, but I DONT CARE. I WANT THIS NOW.

Reply Score: 1

Naming
by darknexus on Tue 19th Jun 2012 00:44 UTC
darknexus
Member since:
2008-07-15

It sure looks nice. It's just too bad Microsoft has no concept of how to name something so it will grab your attention. Surface? Really? To be fair though, this is something most companies struggle with, and it's sure not as bad of a name as the Joo Joo (anyone remember that thing?). I might just have to get one, depending on the price ratio. I'd definitely go for the x86 version if I did, as I have no interest in the restrictive Windows RT.
edit: I accidentally said WinRT instead of Windows RT. Talk about ridiculously confusing names.

Edited 2012-06-19 00:50 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE: Naming
by Nelson on Tue 19th Jun 2012 00:46 UTC in reply to "Naming"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Speaking of stupid naming:

Windows RT*

WinRT is the name of the API set for Metro Style apps.
Windows RT is the name of Windows on ARM devices.

/pedant

Reply Score: 3

RE: Naming
by Shadowmane on Tue 19th Jun 2012 15:36 UTC in reply to "Naming"
Shadowmane Member since:
2006-06-16

Its just a rehash of something else that's been in the works for a long time. MS Surface used to be a multi-touch table to be used in bars and what not.

Reply Score: 1

Regarding the OEMs
by MollyC on Tue 19th Jun 2012 00:48 UTC
MollyC
Member since:
2006-07-04

They can up their game to compete with this, if such is within them. They were a bit lazy when it came to competing with Apple hardware design, maybe now they'll get off their rear ends. hehe

And it's not like the OEMs have been all that loyal to MS, particularly in the tablet space. Multiple of them are making Android tablets, and one, HP, bought its own tablet OS (Web OS) after abandoning the HP W7 Slate that Ballmer showed off a couple years ago.

Microsoft, I think, has a pretty good record wrt hardware, the one black eye being the RROD issue on the first gen Xbox 360s. But the later gen 360s are great, the Zune HD is great (the initial Zunes were not, but those were rebranded Toshiba Gigabit media players rather than original MS designs).

We'll see how these "Surface" things turn out. I'm particularly interested in the Intel version, but both the Intel and ARM versions do look very nice.

Edited 2012-06-19 00:56 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: Regarding the OEMs
by Radio on Tue 19th Jun 2012 09:02 UTC in reply to "Regarding the OEMs"
Radio Member since:
2009-06-20

They can up their game to compete with this, if such is within them. They were a bit lazy when it came to competing with Apple hardware design, maybe now they'll get off their rear ends. hehe
This level of scorn against OEM is unwarranted (see my remarks above).

I know this website is more likely to attract coders than people in manufacturing, but please try to understand that hardware is far, far more difficult to make and ship than software.

Reply Score: 2

*yawn*
by Bit_Rapist on Tue 19th Jun 2012 01:07 UTC
Bit_Rapist
Member since:
2005-11-13

the keyboard built into the cover is cool, everything else is kind of a *meh* moment for me.

This thing is 2 years behind the iPad, its basically rev A and the ecosystem for apps is nowhere compared to the competition. MS has a long road ahead of them with this thing.

I expect the first release of Windows 8 on this thing to suck. Think back to Windows 1.0 copying the Mac OS.

I also think MS is crazy to push Metro. It has failed on the smart phone - hello?!? - now they want to push this failed interface to tablets and windows itself ?

MS just fails to excite me in this day and age.

I mean seriously where is the innovation? All I saw was a clever keyboard the rest of it smacked of 'hey guys we can build a tablet too!'

Give me something redefining... something inspiring... this ain't it

Reply Score: 4

RE: *yawn*
by Nelson on Tue 19th Jun 2012 01:27 UTC in reply to "*yawn*"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

"Where's the innovation? All I saw was innovation"

is basically what you said.

Reply Score: 1

RE: *yawn*
by Morgan on Tue 19th Jun 2012 05:24 UTC in reply to "*yawn*"
Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29


I also think MS is crazy to push Metro. It has failed on the smart phone - hello?!?


How has it failed? Everyone I've shown my phone to -- and I'm not exaggerating, everyone -- has asked me where I got it, where they can get one, can they play with it, does it run X app or Y game (almost always a "yes", Zune Market has the good popular apps). And I'm not even showing it off; people see me use it and ask about it. It's had a resounding impact on those who have seen it, and it's not even the best WP7 hardware out there. Just seeing a very capable and easy to use version of MS Office bundled with the device has caused a few coworkers and clients to commit to buying one.

now they want to push this failed interface to tablets and windows itself ?


Tablets like the Surface are exactly where Metro belongs. I think the hardware is amazing, the design concepts are stunning, and the fact that x86 and ARM are both offered is a good decision by Microsoft.

I have to admit though, I'm going to approach this release with caution. I know I won't be buying one; my budget simply doesn't allow for such a huge expense for a device I'll rarely have time to use. There's a reason my fiancée has the iPad and I stick to my smartphone; I work all the time and something that big would just get in my way out in the field.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: *yawn*
by ncgmac on Tue 19th Jun 2012 12:51 UTC in reply to "RE: *yawn*"
ncgmac Member since:
2011-09-22

Well I think you've hit on something that has been nagging at me. I think there is concern at Microsoft about the OEMs and competing Android systems by the same manufacturers. I think they know that Metro on the desktop or laptop just doesn't add a lot of value, though the under the covers stuff does. So they are coming out with this hardware to try and drive demand.

It does look cool, but price point will account for a lot. They can play some with that since they can load it with their software for basically nothing. It's not really a device I would purchase, but for folks that don't have tablets, or are Microsoft only, it's probably compelling. It will have a niche, how big will be a wait and see.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: *yawn*
by Bit_Rapist on Wed 20th Jun 2012 04:34 UTC in reply to "RE: *yawn*"
Bit_Rapist Member since:
2005-11-13

I think one needs to look no further than the device sales and Nokia to see that while Metro has its fans, largely it has failed to attract real interest in the market.

As for tech geeks the moment I heard Windows Phone 7 has a 'registry' I was floored. Has Microsoft learned nothing over the years ? Whats next? Does it support OLE/COM/ActiveX component interfaces along with the .net framework? lol.

I began to loathe the registry after working with and supporting Windows over many years. The last thing I want is to deal with an abomination like that on my phone.

Metro itself I don't think is bad, I'm just not sure it offers a better way of doing things vs Android or iOS. It strikes me as being different for the sake of being different.

I am just amazed that the sales guy CEO was OK with throwing a low selling interface onto a flagship product that brings in a large portion of the company's revenue.

I'm just a dude on the Internet of course and maybe this thing will be an amazing success. I hope so for the simple fact that I have a lot of friends and family who make their living at Microsoft but myself personally ... I'm just not excited. Windows 7 excited me. This thing along with Windows 8 just feels like a few steps backwards.

Reply Score: 1

RE: *yawn*
by dsmogor on Tue 19th Jun 2012 08:11 UTC in reply to "*yawn*"
dsmogor Member since:
2005-09-01

I hate touch keyboards, royally useless and frustrating for any kind of serious work for me.
That makes me interested if MS managed to pull off tactile KB that thin and if they hold any patents on that. I'd kill for such a cover for my Note.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: *yawn*
by Lennie on Tue 19th Jun 2012 10:52 UTC in reply to "RE: *yawn*"
Lennie Member since:
2007-09-22

It is an interresting combination between previously existing ideas.

It isn't tactile as a normal keyboard, it doesn't have feedback, but it might be good enough.

I wonder if it would be useful for a phone too, it would have to be a non-floppy kind; A sturdy cover.

But why does the touchcover have a touchpad ?

The touchpad was and still is a hack, a workaround.

The screen isn't a touchscreen or what ?

Edited 2012-06-19 11:04 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: *yawn*
by Moochman on Thu 21st Jun 2012 01:48 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: *yawn*"
Moochman Member since:
2005-07-06

But why does the touchcover have a touchpad ?

The touchpad was and still is a hack, a workaround.

The screen isn't a touchscreen or what ?


Probably to help you cope with the fact that they haven't gotten around to making touch-friendly versions of Office, Windows Explorer, etc...

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: *yawn*
by zima on Fri 22nd Jun 2012 19:03 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: *yawn*"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

The touchpad might be there if only because of familiarity factor in desktop mode.

But how is it a workaround?

Reply Score: 2

ARM
by UltraZelda64 on Tue 19th Jun 2012 01:17 UTC
UltraZelda64
Member since:
2006-12-05

One thing I was thinking when I read the "rumor" article was that, if Microsoft themselves put out an ARM tablet as rumored, then they would have every right to lock it down to only be capable of running Windows, and it would be fine.

And here, now it's announced that they are in fact going to be releasing their own locked-down Microsoft-only Windows tablet/laptop hybrid, and yes, that's fine. Good job Microsoft, you have created what can be called *your own* piece of hardware, and can say what can and cannot be done on it. Apple-style. Sure, it's an assholish thing to do and for that reason I'll never buy it, but well... there are always alternatives for those who don't want this restriction. But wait--there aren't?

So... now that they have their own official hardware to lock all other operating systems out of, how about they revise their anti-competitive "rules" for ARM computer manufacturers and give the consumers of those computers, which are not made by Microsoft, the ability to install something else? Like, I don't know... something, anything, *not* made by Microsoft?

This could be like the locked-down Xbox tablet with everyone else who wants freedom able to go to another brand. And now that Microsoft has their own tablet computer, aside from pure greed and abusive anti-competitive monopolistic ideals, what is stopping them now?

Edited 2012-06-19 01:22 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE: ARM
by Nelson on Tue 19th Jun 2012 01:28 UTC in reply to "ARM"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

They are not a convicted monopolist for the ARM architecture. Ruling specifically sites the Intel arch.

They have 0% marketshare in ARM based computing.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: ARM
by Soulbender on Tue 19th Jun 2012 04:56 UTC in reply to "RE: ARM"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

That doesn't make their demands any less anti-competitive and it's obviously an attempt to use their existing desktop "monopoly" as leverage to pro-actively prevent competition in a market where they are currently a minor player.

Reply Score: 10

RE[3]: ARM
by Nelson on Tue 19th Jun 2012 05:26 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: ARM"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

That doesn't make their demands any less anti-competitive and it's obviously an attempt to use their existing desktop "monopoly" as leverage to pro-actively prevent competition in a market where they are currently a minor player.


No, because there is true and legitimate choice in the ARM market. Again, Microsoft has zero marketshare. Existing Windows applications do not run on Windows RT. It is a separate product.

Microsoft may have once held a monopolistic position on the computing landscape, but to say that it still does today is disingenuous. Computing has shifted to far more devices, beyond traditional PCs and true alternatives have sprung up.

If Microsoft makes any inroads in the tablet market it will be on the merits of Wndows RT itself.

And I quite enjoy the double speak a lot of people use with regards to Windows 8. Some say it won't sell, no one will like Metro, it'll cause Microsoft to lose revenue (give me a break) while at the same time decrying the unfair monopoly that Microsoft has and how its going to ensure Microsoft dominates, and how general purpose computing is over.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: ARM
by dsmogor on Tue 19th Jun 2012 08:05 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: ARM"
dsmogor Member since:
2005-09-01

> And I quite enjoy the double speak a lot of people use > with regards to Windows 8. Some say it won't sell, no > one will like Metro, it'll cause Microsoft to lose revenue (give me a break) while at the same time decrying the unfair monopoly that Microsoft has and how its going to ensure Microsoft dominates, and how general purpose computing is over

There's not contradiction in this logic, while Win8 may flop in traditional MS turf (esp. enterprise) it makes an interesting tablet offering, a serious treat to Android in ARM tablet space. And that's where it's restrictions may shape hardware standards (ARM PC) to exclude Linux and any other oses for that matter.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: ARM
by JAlexoid on Tue 19th Jun 2012 13:02 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: ARM"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

You do realise that anti-trust laws actually cover cross market actions.

Also, computing landscape is not a market. Come back when there is no massive disincentive for PC manufacturers of releasing computers without an OS.

Though it does not necessarily mean that Microsoft will act in an anti-competitive manner.

Edited 2012-06-19 13:03 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: ARM
by UltraZelda64 on Tue 19th Jun 2012 21:12 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: ARM"
UltraZelda64 Member since:
2006-12-05

No, because there is true and legitimate choice in the ARM market. Again, Microsoft has zero marketshare. Existing Windows applications do not run on Windows RT. It is a separate product.

There won't be, once Microsoft forces their way in. Choice will go down the shitter once Windows 8 starts being released on tablets, because ALL of these tablets will be released with it (which will in turn popularize ARM even more) will downright *refuse* to run anything that Microsoft doesn't either create themselves... or bless with their key for a hundred bucks.

Once Windows 8 has turned Android, and probably iOS, into much more minor players, it will proceed to popularize the ARM platform for traditional laptops and desktops. The only problem? By this time, unless the government has already gotten into the situation due to anti-trust issues, ARM as an architecture will already be royally fucked. It will have already succeeded in making ARM a Microsoft-only playground, as long as you get Windows 8 with the machine.

Microsoft may have once held a monopolistic position on the computing landscape, but to say that it still does today is disingenuous. Computing has shifted to far more devices, beyond traditional PCs and true alternatives have sprung up.

They still have a hell of a lot of power and tend to use it in extremely abusive ways.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: ARM
by lucas_maximus on Thu 21st Jun 2012 18:49 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: ARM"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Does your hatred of Microsoft consume you whole life because it certainly seems to.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: ARM
by UltraZelda64 on Thu 21st Jun 2012 22:35 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: ARM"
UltraZelda64 Member since:
2006-12-05

Does your hatred of Microsoft consume you whole life because it certainly seems to.

So now apparently you know the entire life of a stranger on the Internet so well that you can claim his "Microsoft hatred" consumes his entire life. So, Mr. Know-It-All... what are a few of the non-computing things I enjoy doing? You know--those things that are so far outside of the scope of anything Microsoft would be doing, because they have... you know... absolutely NOTHING to do with computers. Little do you know, computing is only one part of my interests... and when a company (Microsoft) comes around to fuck up the future of entirely new classes of computer hardware based on the ARM architecture by locking out the consumer's choice and forcing them into Windows (while placing the Windows tax on new types of hardware), damn right I'll get pissed.

And just to make it clear, I don't *hate* Microsoft itself; what I "hate" is its crooked business practices, which it tends to use over and over, often illegally or of questionable legal status... and obviously those things don't reflect too well on the company itself.

Like any other company, Microsoft deserves praise when they do something right and a good slamming when they make questionable to downright bad choices. Starting with Windows Vista, they deservedly got slammed. Starting with Windows 7, they received praises, and rightfully so. With Windows 8, they deserve plenty of slamming--for Metro and their attempts to "obsolete" the traditional desktop on all machines, as well as for their turning all ARM-based machines that come with Windows 8 into Windows sandboxes that are useless for anything else, just to name a couple things.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: ARM
by lucas_maximus on Fri 22nd Jun 2012 08:04 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: ARM"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Your anger says and you behaviour in the comments says otherwise.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: ARM
by tomcat on Tue 19th Jun 2012 05:33 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: ARM"
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

That doesn't make their demands any less anti-competitive and it's obviously an attempt to use their existing desktop "monopoly" as leverage to pro-actively prevent competition in a market where they are currently a minor player.


Sorry, but I call bullshit. Microsoft's desktop monopoly doesn't buy it squat in the ARM market. This tablet won't run any of the desktop software. They're basically starting from scratch here. So, these so-calledm"anticompetitive" effects exist only in your imagination.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: ARM
by Soulbender on Tue 19th Jun 2012 05:55 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: ARM"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Microsoft's desktop monopoly doesn't buy it squat in the ARM market


Doesn't mean they won't try to use it.

They're basically starting from scratch here. So, these so-calledm"anticompetitive" effects exist only in your imagination.


Yeah, because companies never try to get an advantage over their competition. What reason other than stifling the competition could there possible be for demanding that everyone else be practically locked out?
Security? Yeah, if there ever was something to call bullshit on it's that.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: ARM
by tomcat on Tue 19th Jun 2012 08:44 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: ARM"
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

Doesn't mean they won't try to use it.


Explain how.

Yeah, because companies never try to get an advantage over their competition. What reason other than stifling the competition could there possible be for demanding that everyone else be practically locked out?
Security? Yeah, if there ever was something to call bullshit on it's that.


Again, explain how. Short answer: You can't. Because it's BS.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: ARM
by Soulbender on Tue 19th Jun 2012 08:52 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: ARM"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Are you saying that they're not requiring that secure boot can not be disabled on arm devices running windows 8? Or are you saying that their requirement has nothing to do with stifling competition and is instead because...ehm...uh....yeah, why exactly?
Why does MS try so hard to prevent me from using a device I own to run what I want?

Reply Score: 5

RE[7]: ARM
by Nelson on Tue 19th Jun 2012 09:46 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: ARM"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Windows 8 CAN'T be really used as any kind of effective leverage, because it presents no competitive advantage to Windows RT.

You can't just reply "Yeah, but what if" to something which is demonstrably impossible. The architectures are different, meaning everything from applications to drivers are incompatible.

Windows RT doesn't have the clout that Windows has. So Microsoft can't really use their success on the Desktop to force success in the ARM world.

Microsoft has every right to dictate the terms of using their software (SecureBoot forced on ARM), and you're free as a consumer to not use it. Its not a monopolistic abuse, its how they chose to do business.

When Apple locks their bootloaders its not a monopolistic abuse, its the walled garden they choose to let you play in for $499. Don't like it, don't play.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: ARM
by westlake on Tue 19th Jun 2012 22:41 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: ARM"
westlake Member since:
2010-01-07

Why does MS try so hard to prevent me from using a device I own to run what I want?


The Win RT tablet includes MS Office Home & Student. That defines it as a mass market consumer product. The Win 8 Pro tablet is an enterprise grade ultrabook for the Windows eco-system.

Keep it simple, stupid.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: ARM
by lucas_maximus on Wed 20th Jun 2012 14:47 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: ARM"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Lets forget the fact that you can actually buy a key for relatively cheap.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: ARM
by UltraZelda64 on Tue 19th Jun 2012 21:17 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: ARM"
UltraZelda64 Member since:
2006-12-05

Sorry, but I call bullshit. Microsoft's desktop monopoly doesn't buy it squat in the ARM market. This tablet won't run any of the desktop software. They're basically starting from scratch here. So, these so-calledm"anticompetitive" effects exist only in your imagination.

Ever hear of this thing called a "trademark"? People are going to see Windows 8 as the newer, better version of Windows 7 and automatically, Microsoft has a large number of people buying it for that reason. Not to mention people who will buy anything as soon as it comes out and then get bored when the novelty wears off. And obviously, a large number of machines will be coming up with Windows, because so many companies are in Microsoft's pockets. It all adds up in Microsoft's favor in the form of raw numbers.

Edited 2012-06-19 21:19 UTC

Reply Score: 2

There goes the OEM market ...
by kateline on Tue 19th Jun 2012 01:28 UTC
kateline
Member since:
2011-05-19

From the competitive standpoint MS had to make a tough call. Do they get into tablet hardware themselves and piss off their OEMs when they most need them? The answer turns out to be "yes."

If MS succeeds with this, they gain more profitability than ever, with control of both hardware and software for tablets. If they fail, there sure won't be any OEMs willing to help them out.

Should be interesting to see how this one turns out.

Reply Score: 5

Another good idea
by Priest on Tue 19th Jun 2012 01:30 UTC
Priest
Member since:
2006-05-12

This is an improvement on the last generation of covers but I have an idea for what to do after this:

Since the keyboard is replaceable, make a keyboard cover that contains a huge battery and some expansion ports.

It would allow a battery orders of magnitude larger that would give you 2 or more weeks of actual use rather than the 5-10 hours we have now. You could charge it once a month.

It would also give you additional USB ports etc. that you don't have with a tablet typically.

When you need something lighter just swap the big heavy keyboard for the normal cover and you have a normal tablet. It would even work to charge the tablet while it's connected.

Edited 2012-06-19 01:38 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: Another good idea
by dvhh on Tue 19th Jun 2012 01:58 UTC in reply to "Another good idea"
dvhh Member since:
2006-03-20

like the eee pad transformer ?

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Another good idea
by Nelson on Tue 19th Jun 2012 03:03 UTC in reply to "RE: Another good idea"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Hell no. As a transformer owner its one of the worst pieces of tech I've had the misfortunes of owning.

Buggy POS.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Another good idea
by Morgan on Tue 19th Jun 2012 05:29 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Another good idea"
Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

That's interesting, my best friend has one and he loves it. He's never mentioned any issues with it, and we discuss our tech gear the way muscle car enthusiasts discuss new carburetors and engine timing.

I've played with it some and I must say it's very nice hardware, though a bit heavy for my taste even without the keyboard. I was used to the Nook Color though, which to me is a nearly perfect Android tablet. I'd say the Transformer is a notch or two above the average netbook, if you have no need for x86 support that is.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Another good idea
by Nelson on Tue 19th Jun 2012 05:34 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Another good idea"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

It makes for a great demo. I loved it initially. The small bugs get to you.

That, and ASUS stock roms are painfully slow and unoptimized. If you try to go custom ROM the dock starts fucking up because it uses custom ASUS drivers.

The thing is just way to slow to be a dual core or quad core device. Its unbelievable how laggy the thing gets.

Then there's the stupid non standard charger. Good luck charging it with a wall piece that's not made by ASUS. It'll take you 8 hours to get from 0-10% battery. No. Lie. Treat your charger like gold.


One thing I will note, with or without the dock the battery life is superb.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Another good idea
by Morgan on Tue 19th Jun 2012 05:43 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Another good idea"
Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

It makes for a great demo. I loved it initially. The small bugs get to you.

That, and ASUS stock roms are painfully slow and unoptimized. If you try to go custom ROM the dock starts fucking up because it uses custom ASUS drivers.

The thing is just way to slow to be a dual core or quad core device. Its unbelievable how laggy the thing gets.


I'll have to ask my friend about that; not long after he got it he had toyed with the idea of alternate ROMs, but I think he decided he liked the stock ROM especially after the ICS update.

Then there's the stupid non standard charger. Good luck charging it with a wall piece that's not made by ASUS. It'll take you 8 hours to get from 0-10% battery. No. Lie. Treat your charger like gold.


That was my only issue with the Nook Color; use the included USB cable and adapter, and you could have a full charge in less than two hours. Use a standard micro USB cable, even with a high output adapter, and it was an all day affair. It was even worse when trying to charge and use the tablet at the same time on a regular cable. Not only would it not charge, depending on CPU usage and screen brightness you could fully discharge the device while it was plugged in.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Another good idea
by Neolander on Tue 19th Jun 2012 06:37 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Another good idea"
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

Then there's the stupid non standard charger. Good luck charging it with a wall piece that's not made by ASUS. It'll take you 8 hours to get from 0-10% battery. No. Lie. Treat your charger like gold.

Just one remark : as strange as it may sound, there is no standard spec for a USB2 port that can deliver lots of current. All fast cellphone chargers are based on manufacturer-specific tricks like shorting pins together.

That's what happen when people take a port designed for data transfers and say "meh, it will work as a power input just fine" for the sake of cool design.

Edited 2012-06-19 06:38 UTC

Reply Score: 7

RE[6]: Another good idea
by Nelson on Tue 19th Jun 2012 09:46 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Another good idea"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

+1 Did not know. Interesting!

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Another good idea
by Neolander on Tue 19th Jun 2012 16:59 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Another good idea"
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

Correcting myself : there have been effort in the direction of standardizing high-current USB in the past few years (such as the Battery Charging Specification of 2010), the standards are just not in widespread use at the moment.

Edited 2012-06-19 16:59 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Another good idea
by dvhh on Tue 19th Jun 2012 07:21 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Another good idea"
dvhh Member since:
2006-03-20

I agree that the charger, and its cable are the most nagging point of the eee pad transformer (if only there was some ). But apart from that, I don't use android on this anymore, and as a linux laptop, it's pretty great, can last 2 days on battery, have a C/C++ compiler handy, and also mono for some cross platform coding compiling.

The storage is quite slow, and the 1Gb RAM (shared with video) is very limiting. But I love it overall.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Another good idea
by intangible on Tue 19th Jun 2012 20:08 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Another good idea"
intangible Member since:
2005-07-06

You can create your own charger that will work with the Transformer by just feeding 13-15V at 2amp through the USB cable adapter you got with your device...

That's all their own charger does, it just uses extra pins in the USB3 style cable shorted together to tell it whether to put out 15V because it's the transformer cable, or to only put out 5V of the USB standard.

I made my own charger that supplies 13V and it works great... The trickiest part was DO NOT REVERSE THE POLARITY. ;)

Also, I'm just "some guy on the internet", do your own research before breaking your tablet ;)

Edited 2012-06-19 20:10 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Another good idea
by winter skies on Tue 19th Jun 2012 12:37 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Another good idea"
winter skies Member since:
2009-08-21

Nelson, I think you never miss an opportunity to show your bias.

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: Another good idea
by Nelson on Tue 19th Jun 2012 19:04 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Another good idea"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

I'm terribly sorry that I used a product, and didn't like it. I won't let it happen again.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Another good idea
by Priest on Tue 19th Jun 2012 03:15 UTC in reply to "RE: Another good idea"
Priest Member since:
2006-05-12

Sort of but with an optional version with a much larger battery. The Eee Pad has a 3300 mAh battery that extends the life by ~16 hours (measured playing 720p video). Many laptops are between 4400 to mAh 7200 mAh but they are limited in battery space because they need room for other components.

You can buy replacement 7200mAh laptop batteries for $20 with free shipping and they are 1 lb. A medium sized laptop is 6 lbs and a heavy laptop is 10 lbs. So 6 7200mAh batteries would be about $100 and weigh about as much as a medium sized laptop and give you 43,200 mAh which would work out to like 200 hrs of use on a tablet. There are lighter/more expensive battery technologies that could improve that more but you get the idea.

Instead of a $1,000 laptop with more horse power than you need and a 6 hour battery we could replace them with tablets ($500) + dock ($150) that will be close to the same size and weight that will destroy the battery life of a laptop.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Another good idea
by Neolander on Tue 19th Jun 2012 06:30 UTC in reply to "Another good idea"
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

You should talk to Asus about this idea, I'm sure that they will be interested ;)

Reply Score: 3

Not with a ten foot pole
by cmost on Tue 19th Jun 2012 01:39 UTC
cmost
Member since:
2006-07-16

Sorry Microsoft, I don't buy your stuff.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Not with a ten foot pole
by Priest on Tue 19th Jun 2012 02:42 UTC in reply to "Not with a ten foot pole"
Priest Member since:
2006-05-12

If we exclude companies based on ethics reasons, we aren't left with many options. I'd say Apple is far more brutal in both litigation and being closed than Microsoft.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Not with a ten foot pole
by bnolsen on Tue 19th Jun 2012 03:01 UTC in reply to "RE: Not with a ten foot pole"
bnolsen Member since:
2006-01-06

An obvious answer is to get one of the android based tablets. Some of them don't even give money to google and the manufacturer/distributor keeps all the money without any OS tax to any of the big three.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Not with a ten foot pole
by Nelson on Tue 19th Jun 2012 05:32 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Not with a ten foot pole"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Oh yes, those big, noble multinational OEMs who assert those software patents we all hate so much. The one's who take months to deliver updates because they'd rather you just buy a new device.

Ah, yes them. Marvelous guys aren't they?

Give me a break.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Not with a ten foot pole
by Morgan on Tue 19th Jun 2012 05:50 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Not with a ten foot pole"
Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

Problem solved, just buy a Raspberry Pi board, 3D print a case with a MakerBot or RepRap, scrounge a screen from a PSOne, a power supply from a dead 5v device and voila! You have your very own homemade tablet computer, ready to run GNU/Linux. You can even throw in a touchscreen overlay for around $20 via eBay.

Oh, wait...the RPi is made in China by one of those shady multinational OEMs. Dammit!!


(BTW Nelson, I just realized this is my fourth reply to you. I promise I'm not stalking or trolling you, I guess you're just fun to talk to.) ;)

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Not with a ten foot pole
by dsmogor on Tue 19th Jun 2012 07:57 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Not with a ten foot pole"
dsmogor Member since:
2005-09-01

Actually, it's Google who shares some search/ad revenue with oems/operators not the other way round.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Not with a ten foot pole
by Lennie on Tue 19th Jun 2012 09:25 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Not with a ten foot pole"
Lennie Member since:
2007-09-22

Really which manufacturer of Android-hardware does not send money to Microsoft because of Linux-patents ?

Amazon with their Kindle ?

All the other do.

Actually, because Android is doing so well, Microsoft make more money from Android than WP7 at the moment.

Edited 2012-06-19 09:26 UTC

Reply Score: 5

RE: Not with a ten foot pole
by tomcat on Tue 19th Jun 2012 06:02 UTC in reply to "Not with a ten foot pole"
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

Sorry Microsoft, I don't buy your stuff.


Oh, right, you only use stuff from "principled" companies like Google (who spies on you, forces its G+ social networking POS on you, trying its damnedest to de-anonymize you, cooperates with government surveillance and censoring, etc, pays zero corporate taxes, etc) and Apple (who sues everyone who dares to compete with them, locks down its hardware to prevent competing software like Flash, turns a blind eye to human rights abuses in China in order to maximize profits, files ridiculous design patents when there is clearly prior art, etc)...

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Not with a ten foot pole
by Priest on Tue 19th Jun 2012 12:39 UTC in reply to "RE: Not with a ten foot pole"
Priest Member since:
2006-05-12

>human rights abuses in China

People flipped out when foxcon employees commit suicide but they have 1.2 million employees. The suicide rate for Foxcon employees is less than the national average in China and isn't terribly different than the US but the suicides makes a nice sensationalist story for ad revenue so reporters ignore that.

Because of the media attention they have restricted workers' overtime to 36 hours a month (max) from 80 hours a month. You think 36 hours of over time in a month is a human rights abuse? There were several times where I have worked more overtime than that in a week in the US.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Not with a ten foot pole
by ncgmac on Tue 19th Jun 2012 13:31 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Not with a ten foot pole"
ncgmac Member since:
2011-09-22

I remember being in college in the 80's and watching our generation, and others, change Apartheid thru boycotts, and even took on the Chinese sweatshops thru boycotts, bringing on some changes. The global efforts of the consumer brought about changes for the better then. It's sad today that we are so wrapped up in our stuff that we try to simply justify abhorrent behavior by companies and countries.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Not with a ten foot pole
by tomcat on Tue 19th Jun 2012 18:57 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Not with a ten foot pole"
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

>human rights abuses in China

People flipped out when foxcon employees commit suicide but they have 1.2 million employees. The suicide rate for Foxcon employees is less than the national average in China and isn't terribly different than the US but the suicides makes a nice sensationalist story for ad revenue so reporters ignore that.

Because of the media attention they have restricted workers' overtime to 36 hours a month (max) from 80 hours a month. You think 36 hours of over time in a month is a human rights abuse? There were several times where I have worked more overtime than that in a week in the US.


Seriously, you don't know WTF you're talking about. You don't live in a dormitory under armed guard. You are able to go home at night and relax. These people are herded like cattle, and forced to work large amounts of overtime, with little time and space to rest. They can't leave. They can't go home to see their families. All in the name of Apple profits. Yay! Feel better? You--like many other Apple sycophants--are in denial.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Not with a ten foot pole
by Priest on Tue 19th Jun 2012 22:20 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Not with a ten foot pole"
Priest Member since:
2006-05-12

Working at Foxconn is optional and there is huge demand for positions at Foxconn. Food and housing is free and I found nothing about armed guards at dorms but even if there were, there are armed guards at public schools in the US.

From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides

"The suicide rate at Foxconn during the suicide spate remained lower than that of the general Chinese population,[8] and the Foxconn deaths may have been a product of economic conditions external to the company"

Foxconn suicides are lower than the national average even on a bad year (source: http://www.economist.com/node/16231588 ). They typicially have just a few a year but as I pointed out they have 1.2 million employees.

I have personally known a couple people in the US that committed suicide and I don't personally know anywhere close to millions of people. Anyone saying the suicides are proof of poor working conditions are spouting nonsense.

On their worst year they had ~15 suicides. In 2007 and 2008 alone, 255 active duty (American) soldiers committed suicide. That is ~125 suicides a year and there about the amount of employees at Foxconn as there are soldiers on active duty. so:

The suicide rate of active duty American soldiers is over 10 times higher than it is for Foxconn workers.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Not with a ten foot pole
by tomcat on Thu 21st Jun 2012 00:10 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Not with a ten foot pole"
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

Yeah, yeah, I get it. The Apple fanboy line is that Foxconn is just a media-generated problem. But the fact that Foxconn needs to put fucking nets around the perimeter of their buildings to prevent their employees from jumping off speaks greater volumes than your bullshit responses.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Not with a ten foot pole
by Priest on Thu 21st Jun 2012 01:10 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Not with a ten foot pole"
Priest Member since:
2006-05-12

They had 4 suicides last year out of 1.2 million people (compared to 125 in the army) and they don't feel even that is acceptable but buying nets to prevent suicides make them evil now? You have failed to make your case.

You also called me an Apple fanboy and I don't own a single Apple product. I'm just looking at the facts which I understand can be pretty unpopular.

Another fact is that Apple is hardly the only company who Foxconn assembles products for (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn#Major_customers ). Acer, HP, Intel, Dell, Samsung, Microsoft, Toshibam Sony, Cisco, all Foxconn clients.

Probably 80% of the things you own were probably made in China by companies no better than Foxconn but there you are singling out Apple for human rights violations. Does the media decide all of your opinions for you?

Edited 2012-06-21 01:11 UTC

Reply Score: 2

looks good
by stabbyjones on Tue 19th Jun 2012 01:40 UTC
stabbyjones
Member since:
2008-04-15

But:
No price = Must be expensive.
Microsoft hardware = Enforced secure boot.

Unless Windows 8 has the same pull as Windows 7 on release, (which it hasn't really so far.) It's going to have to rely on that shiny factor bad.

It seems to be great on the surface but I'll need a bit more info before I accept press conference marketing as fact. It would certainly be a great replacement for work laptops if they have actually pulled it off.

Reply Score: 4

RE: looks good
by Lennie on Tue 19th Jun 2012 09:28 UTC in reply to "looks good"
Lennie Member since:
2007-09-22

"It seems to be great on the surface" that has to be a pun ;-)

Reply Score: 5

RE: looks good
by JAlexoid on Tue 19th Jun 2012 13:10 UTC in reply to "looks good"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

If it's their hardware, I don't think it's fair to complain about a locked bootloader/BIOS/whatever. When they are forcing OEMs to do that, that is a different issue.

Reply Score: 3

RE: looks good
by chenxiaolong on Tue 19th Jun 2012 19:24 UTC in reply to "looks good"
chenxiaolong Member since:
2011-12-05

Actually, to comply with the "Designed for Windows 8" logo, the option to disable secure boot on the x86 architecture is required. At least the x86 version of the Microsoft Surface can have secure boot disabled.

Reply Score: 1

Nokia is super dead.
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Tue 19th Jun 2012 02:03 UTC
Bill Shooter of Bul
Member since:
2006-07-14

Forget about having a successful tablet or expanding into any other markets what so ever. Microsoft just drank your milkshake.

Reply Score: 6

RE: Nokia is super dead.
by ricegf on Tue 19th Jun 2012 03:00 UTC in reply to "Nokia is super dead. "
ricegf Member since:
2007-04-25

Yes, that scream you heard was Elop as the blade slide between his shoulders. Wish some of us had seen that coming (ahem).

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Nokia is super dead.
by Soulbender on Tue 19th Jun 2012 04:57 UTC in reply to "RE: Nokia is super dead. "
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

How do you know Elop didn't know? I mean really, this will hardly affect him personally or professionally.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Nokia is super dead.
by ricegf on Tue 19th Jun 2012 10:39 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Nokia is super dead. "
ricegf Member since:
2007-04-25

Have you checked how much Nokia stock he owns personally? Are you sure that overseeing the demise rather than the resurgence of Nokia won't affect him professionally?

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Nokia is super dead.
by Nelson on Tue 19th Jun 2012 19:02 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Nokia is super dead. "
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

3rd largest Nokia stockholder among the senior leadership. He has his skin in the game.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Nokia is super dead.
by Nelson on Tue 19th Jun 2012 03:04 UTC in reply to "Nokia is super dead. "
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

I'm more than certain that Nokia can rise to the task and engineer something comparable or better.

That's the entire point, to push OEMs to do better.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Nokia is super dead.
by Morgan on Tue 19th Jun 2012 05:34 UTC in reply to "RE: Nokia is super dead. "
Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

With the cheap plastic-y phones they've put out recently, I'd say they need to step up their game. I used to think Samsung made the cheapest, flimsiest smartphones out there but Nokia's recent phones seem like they'd break if you set them down too hard.

Is it so difficult to make a phone out of metallic parts these days?

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Nokia is super dead.
by tomcat on Tue 19th Jun 2012 08:47 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Nokia is super dead. "
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

With the cheap plastic-y phones they've put out recently, I'd say they need to step up their game. I used to think Samsung made the cheapest, flimsiest smartphones out there but Nokia's recent phones seem like they'd break if you set them down too hard.

Is it so difficult to make a phone out of metallic parts these days?


Huh? Have you ever played with a Lumia? Pretty damned nice phone.

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: Nokia is super dead.
by JAlexoid on Tue 19th Jun 2012 13:11 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Nokia is super dead. "
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

Yes, Lumia 610 and 710. Horrible build quality.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Nokia is super dead.
by tomcat on Tue 19th Jun 2012 18:58 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Nokia is super dead. "
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

Yes, Lumia 610 and 710. Horrible build quality.


You conveniently neglected to talk about Lumia 900. I wonder why. Axe => grind.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Nokia is super dead.
by JAlexoid on Tue 19th Jun 2012 22:42 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Nokia is super dead. "
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

Let's reconstruct the discussion points:
Morgan: "With the cheap plastic-y phones they've put out recently"
tomcat: "Have you ever played with a Lumia?"
jalexoid: "Yes, Lumia 610 and 710. Horrible build quality."

So unless they changed Lumia 610 and Lumia 710 names...

Reply Score: 6

RE[7]: Nokia is super dead.
by tomcat on Thu 21st Jun 2012 00:12 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Nokia is super dead. "
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

So unless they changed Lumia 610 and Lumia 710 names...


Nice attempt at limiting discussion to lower-end models, while not talking about the phone that is widely regarded as one of the best smartphones on the market, the Lumia 900.

Edited 2012-06-21 00:13 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Nokia is super dead.
by Nelson on Tue 19th Jun 2012 19:02 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Nokia is super dead. "
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

I haven't used the 610, but I quite liked the 710. It felt sturdy.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Nokia is super dead.
by Morgan on Fri 22nd Jun 2012 07:41 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Nokia is super dead. "
Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

Yes I have, and I wasn't the least bit impressed. And it's not like I have anything against Nokia; one of my all time favorite phones was the N900 and it was a bit rough around the edges from a design standpoint.

I just wish Nokia and Samsung would stop putting out cheap plastic crap and go back to the great build quality they both used to have. There was a time when you could pick up a feature phone or dumbphone from either company and it just felt solid, even with the plastic casing. Their recent phones, however, feel like those toy cellphones you see in the grocery store candy aisles.

I'm not saying they need to be building two pound metal bricks, I just wish they would consider the fact that some people don't upgrade every few months and prefer a more rugged, substantial device.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Nokia is super dead.
by zima on Fri 22nd Jun 2012 19:06 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Nokia is super dead. "
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Is it so difficult to make a phone out of metallic parts these days?

What? I can something else - STUPID FASHION OF MAKING PHONES OUT OF GLASS AND METAL.

Phone, a device which you hold in your hand while operating it ...made out of materials with intrinsic high thermal conductivity ...so often feeling unpleasantly cold.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Nokia is super dead.
by vodoomoth on Wed 20th Jun 2012 15:10 UTC in reply to "RE: Nokia is super dead. "
vodoomoth Member since:
2010-03-30

That's the entire point, to push OEMs to do better.

I doubt pushing OEMs to do better was the point. Generating revenue probably was.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Nokia is super dead.
by dsmogor on Tue 19th Jun 2012 08:14 UTC in reply to "Nokia is super dead. "
dsmogor Member since:
2005-09-01

Hoping that phone company could be revived by a tablet is Elop naive ;) .

Reply Score: 2

Comment by sagum
by sagum on Tue 19th Jun 2012 02:06 UTC
sagum
Member since:
2006-01-23

"Microsoft just made all its OEMs into potential enemies. This is a big slap in the face of Microsoft's OEMs, basically telling them they're not good enough. OEMs have no choice but to take it like a man, though, since they have little choice in the matter. "

To be honest, and lets face it, Apple set the benchmark for things like personal music players, phones and tablets. The rest of the market has failed to step up and provide something with the same qualities. Sure we've got some high end Android phones but no real contender vs the ipad.

Microsoft have just set the Windows benchmark and OEMs need to pull their finger out, stop remaking the same crap for a quick buck and put some thought and passion back into their products.

I say, well done Microsoft for doing it, even if it does fail at least OEMs will try to step it up a gear now.

Reply Score: 3

New Windows logo?
by gan17 on Tue 19th Jun 2012 02:07 UTC
gan17
Member since:
2008-06-03

Is that a new Windows logo? If so, then I quite like it.

As for the actual device, Seems okay. Not something I'd "want" overnight, but I'll keep an open mind if/when I get to try one out.

Reply Score: 2

Looks fantastic
by reduz on Tue 19th Jun 2012 02:56 UTC
reduz
Member since:
2006-02-25

I hope I can run Ubuntu on it..

Reply Score: 3

RE: Looks fantastic
by ricegf on Tue 19th Jun 2012 03:02 UTC in reply to "Looks fantastic"
ricegf Member since:
2007-04-25

I might buy it if it could, but Microsoft has encrypted the bios to ensure I can't. DRM, meet hardware.

Just as well. I'd rather support companies that will respect me in the morning.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Looks fantastic
by Morgan on Tue 19th Jun 2012 05:37 UTC in reply to "RE: Looks fantastic"
Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

They may not have a traditional BIOS; most ARM devices use bootcode stored on the flash ROM or bootable SD card, and I'm willing to bet the Intel version will use UEFI.

But I'm sure you're correct in that they will lock out any other OSes. That's a shame given how nice the hardware is. Then again, I've felt no desire to install anything else on my WP7 phone, which is odd for me.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Looks fantastic
by dsmogor on Tue 19th Jun 2012 07:53 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Looks fantastic"
dsmogor Member since:
2005-09-01

The moment it hits the market XDA will take breaking it as a pride point. XBOX have been broken, PS3 have been broken, no reason this one wont be.
Of course, it make take large part of its useful lifespan.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Looks fantastic
by tomcat on Tue 19th Jun 2012 08:48 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Looks fantastic"
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

The moment it hits the market XDA will take breaking it as a pride point. XBOX have been broken, PS3 have been broken, no reason this one wont be.
Of course, it make take large part of its useful lifespan.


Besides street cred, not sure how interesting it is to void a warranty to crack UEFI.

Edited 2012-06-19 08:50 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Looks fantastic
by Lennie on Tue 19th Jun 2012 09:31 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Looks fantastic"
Lennie Member since:
2007-09-22

The only ARM-tablets Microsoft will support are all locked down UEFI (I don't know about the ARM-phones).

Reply Score: 2

RE: Looks fantastic
by FunkyELF on Tue 19th Jun 2012 14:06 UTC in reply to "Looks fantastic"
FunkyELF Member since:
2006-07-26

Are you referring to that Android / Ubuntu thing that they demo'd a while ago?

If so I doubt it will come to this. They are sitting on the source, it isn't public. They're waiting for a manufacturer, so it'll undoubtedly be a big fail.

People have powerful phones now. People have powerful tablets now. No reason not to let us install Ubuntu alongside Android now.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Looks fantastic
by jnemesh on Tue 19th Jun 2012 16:59 UTC in reply to "Looks fantastic"
jnemesh Member since:
2008-04-08

Not going to happen, at least for the ARM tablets. Microsoft is locking down the bootloader hard to prevent people from running software they want on the hardware they OWN. I will be shopping elsewhere, no matter how cool or shiny these tablets are otherwise, they are still crippled by the OS.

Reply Score: 2

Quite Exciting.
by Pelly on Tue 19th Jun 2012 03:23 UTC
Pelly
Member since:
2005-07-07

After seeing the short video advertisement and the video at The Verge (same from MS), this looks like quite and interesting and exciting product.

What impressed me was the availability of an actual USB Port and keyboard-cover combination. The device itself looks slick and ultra-sleek. The multiple ports hint at allowing for expandability and flexibility that gadgets such as the iPad don't currently have.

With USB Ports, the potential for being able to directly connect a printer would seem possible, provided the driver support. Even being able to connect flash or hard drives would be a huge advantage.

The Home Screen looks like a bolder version of the Zune-HD and WP7/7.5 UI, both of which are very easy to navigate.

I see a lot of possibilities with such a device and am actually looking forward being able to test-drive one when production starts and they're available.

Good Job, Microsoft. Seriously. This has my attention and I can't wait to try one out.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Quite Exciting.
by vodoomoth on Wed 20th Jun 2012 15:14 UTC in reply to "Quite Exciting."
vodoomoth Member since:
2010-03-30

With USB Ports, the potential for being able to directly connect a printer would seem possible, provided the driver support.

Reading this made me wonder (again!) why we still need, in this day and age, "a driver" to simply print something. MS could have made this seamless.

Edited 2012-06-20 15:15 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Quite Exciting.
by lucas_maximus on Thu 21st Jun 2012 18:54 UTC in reply to "RE: Quite Exciting."
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Ask the printer companies, they are the ones that push out crap tech.

Consumer grade printers are deliberately shit ... I thought this was well known?

Reply Score: 3

...
by Hiev on Tue 19th Jun 2012 03:46 UTC
Hiev
Member since:
2005-09-27

A cover that is a keyboard, interesting.

Reply Score: 2

The most interesting in all of this
by ronaldst on Tue 19th Jun 2012 04:18 UTC
ronaldst
Member since:
2005-06-29

is about how Microsoft keeping secrets now. No one knew this was incoming until a few days ago. I'm still impressed on how they're keeping it hush hush about WP8.

I want the ARM version. Intel CPUs don't belong on mobile devices.

The keyboard/track pad inside the cover is awesome. People at Apple are probably saying "why didn't we think of that."

Edited 2012-06-19 04:21 UTC

Reply Score: 2

JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

Intel CPUs don't belong on mobile devices.

You might want to check Intel based Orange SanDiego.

Reply Score: 2

Quite nice
by Soulbender on Tue 19th Jun 2012 05:06 UTC
Soulbender
Member since:
2005-08-18

That's a pretty nice looking device.
Of course, I'm not getting it unless I can run Linux or BSD on it but for people using Windows it's undoubtedly a nice option.

On a related note, what happened to Ballmer? He looks really old and tired.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Quite nice
by grat on Wed 20th Jun 2012 17:15 UTC in reply to "Quite nice"
grat Member since:
2006-02-02

On a related note, what happened to Ballmer? He looks really old and tired.


He's probably been reading the comments on slashdot and here.

Reply Score: 2

"Delivered"
by phti on Tue 19th Jun 2012 05:16 UTC
phti
Member since:
2012-06-02

Delivered is a strong word. I have yet to see prices and release dates.

Reply Score: 3

RE: "Delivered"
by Nelson on Tue 19th Jun 2012 05:30 UTC in reply to ""Delivered""
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Pricing will be competitive with current OEM prices for Windows 8 and Windows RT devices.

Availability is supposed to be rather soon for the Windows RT device (Julyish I thought I heard floated around) and a few weeks after Windows 8 GA for the Windows 8 Pro device.

So it'll be as cheap an ARM Tablet for the WinRT version, and as cheap as an Intel Ultrabook. I'm estimating $399 or $499 for the WinRT device and $799 or $899 for the Windows 8 Pro device.

And I don't think any OEM has released Windows 8/WinRT battery life estimates.

What I care more about is concrete specs:
What kind of GPU are in the chips?
Clockspeeds on the processor
Will they have 3G or 4G or just WiFi?

Reply Score: 2

Very Nice
by Lorin on Tue 19th Jun 2012 05:39 UTC
Lorin
Member since:
2010-04-06

Looks good , but not on my 30 inch monitor

Reply Score: 1

Comment by shmerl
by shmerl on Tue 19th Jun 2012 05:41 UTC
shmerl
Member since:
2010-06-08

How long will it take till Apple will start suing them (for whatever)? Or they already paid in advance?

Edited 2012-06-19 05:41 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by shmerl
by tomcat on Tue 19th Jun 2012 06:07 UTC in reply to "Comment by shmerl"
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

How long will it take till Apple will start suing them (for whatever)? Or they already paid in advance?


Apple can't sue MSFT for shit. They signed broad,cross-licensing agreements when MS bailed them out a decade ago.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Comment by shmerl
by dsmogor on Tue 19th Jun 2012 07:49 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by shmerl"
dsmogor Member since:
2005-09-01

Still Apple can sue all OEMs that will take this as an reference design. So MS basically alone in this game.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by shmerl
by tomcat on Tue 19th Jun 2012 08:52 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by shmerl"
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

Still Apple can sue all OEMs that will take this as an reference design. So MS basically alone in this game.


Not if MS can sublicense the patents.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Comment by shmerl
by dsmogor on Wed 20th Jun 2012 09:27 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by shmerl"
dsmogor Member since:
2005-09-01

MS sublicencing patents only warrants they will not sue themselves, but no protection from other entities.
They could of course sign an agreement with other patent holders to span their xlicencing deal to selected partners, but so far I haven't heard about anything like that.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment by shmerl
by tomcat on Thu 21st Jun 2012 00:13 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by shmerl"
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

MS sublicencing patents only warrants they will not sue themselves, but no protection from other entities.


BS. You don't know the terms of the cross-licensing agreements.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by shmerl
by Nelson on Tue 19th Jun 2012 09:40 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by shmerl"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

This isn't Android, Microsoft protects its OEMs.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Comment by shmerl
by Radio on Tue 19th Jun 2012 09:42 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by shmerl"
Radio Member since:
2009-06-20

It just stabs them in the back from time to time.

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: Comment by shmerl
by Nelson on Tue 19th Jun 2012 09:48 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by shmerl"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

You mean like how Google offers absolutely zero patent protection to its OEMs?

You know, to ward off the INJUNCTIONS that HTC and Samsung routinely have placed on them?

Oh, right.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment by shmerl
by JAlexoid on Tue 19th Jun 2012 13:15 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by shmerl"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

You mean like how Google offers absolutely zero patent protection to its OEMs?

You might want to read up on the definition of stabbing in the back.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Comment by shmerl
by Nelson on Tue 19th Jun 2012 18:57 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by shmerl"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Completely leaving OEMs out to dry (which google has done) is a stab in the back. Well actually, it isn't, its more bald faced than that. Its blatant disregard.

Microsoft would NEVER have let the bullshit that OEMs under Android are being put through stand.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by a2d23
by a2d23 on Tue 19th Jun 2012 06:39 UTC
a2d23
Member since:
2012-05-22

At first I thought it was a bad idea but now it seems to me that Microsoft is pushing to the right direction, not innovative but what would you expect.
I guess they will have some success the question is will it fly? with all the competition around I don't think so. Its not 1980, all over again.

Reply Score: 0

v nice
by NuxRo on Tue 19th Jun 2012 06:56 UTC
RE: nice
by tomcat on Thu 21st Jun 2012 00:14 UTC in reply to "nice"
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

Nice piece, too bad the OS is shit. Will definitely be something to look at if they'll ever manage to install linux on it.


Why would you want to put worse shit on it?

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: nice
by lucas_maximus on Thu 21st Jun 2012 18:56 UTC in reply to "RE: nice"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Because Linux is the perfect OS and never had any problems ever.
</sarcasm>

Reply Score: 2

Wow
by galvanash on Tue 19th Jun 2012 07:08 UTC
galvanash
Member since:
2006-01-25

I was just floored by this - didn't see it coming at all. That is some sexy damn hardware! My Initial thoughts:

1. How the hell did Microsoft keep such a secret so well??? This is new territory for them - really, they must have hired some new people to run their skunkworks or something... Historically something this big would have leaked about 5 minutes after they thought of dong it.

2. They are using nVidia's core for the ARM version, I assume that means it is a Tegra 3. It should be pretty damn snappy. And then there is one with an Ivy Bridge... Even if they clock it down to like 1.2Ghz or something it will easily eat any ARM core for lunch. So they are essentially making an iPad and a Macbook Air competitor with a single product line.

3. This will be the first non-iPad tablet on the market than can be legitimately priced to compete with Apple on fairly equal terms, as opposed to having to undercut them to get traction. I would wager the entry level ARM version will be $499 - in fact I would say they need to price it exactly the same as the entry level iPad - the symbolism is too important to ignore. If they give it any price other than $499 (in either direction) whoever is responsible needs to be publicly flogged for stupidity.

4. The touch cover.... Tip of the hat to whoever thought that one up. A tablet with what is almost a zero-footprint keyboard. Genius.

5. Microsoft has managed to get half the internet talking about this thing like it was a new Apple product... That in itself is definitely a sign of things starting to get interesting to say the least.

Welcome back to the game Microsoft, we missed you the last few years...

Reply Score: 6

Welcome to the future.
by dsmogor on Tue 19th Jun 2012 07:46 UTC
dsmogor
Member since:
2005-09-01

This quite nicely aligns with the Visio story. As the manufacturing is almost completely shifted to ever more independent Chinese entities is there still any place for present style hardware companies? Where's the value they can add, that couldn't be delivered by combination of software, design and manufacturing houses?
The sorry state of Nokia is also testament to that.

Reply Score: 5

Great to see MS doing hardware
by Torbjorn Vik Lunde on Tue 19th Jun 2012 08:19 UTC
Torbjorn Vik Lunde
Member since:
2009-09-04

I think the biggest problem with Windows PCs, especially the last few years have been the hardware, not the software. I've long said that I think Microsoft can create better hardware than a lot of the OEMs.

Looking forwards to see one in action.

Reply Score: 1

Comment by kovacm
by kovacm on Tue 19th Jun 2012 09:08 UTC
kovacm
Member since:
2010-12-16

"...but also because Microsoft just made all its OEMs into potential enemies. This is a big slap in the face of Microsoft's OEMs, basically telling them they're not good enough."


all this happened before.

when Microsoft with OEM partners was unable to compete with Apples iPod, Microsoft make their own media player, Zune.

Reply Score: 1

Can it run Linux?
by evert on Tue 19th Jun 2012 09:46 UTC
evert
Member since:
2005-07-06

Seriously, I'm impressed, but I like the option to install a second operating system, just for in case.

Also, the question "but can it run XYZ" is important because I like to have control / freedom with the hardware I buy.

And buying this beauty is definitly something I would consider.

Probebly I would also like the Metro UI on a device like this.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Can it run Linux?
by Nelson on Tue 19th Jun 2012 09:49 UTC in reply to "Can it run Linux?"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

The Intel version might have luck running Linux (The issue would likely be Touchscreen and other sensor drivers) but on ARM? Likely not, unless you're comfortable with a SecureBoot signed Fedora distro.

Reply Score: 2

My long winded analysis
by Nelson on Tue 19th Jun 2012 10:10 UTC
Nelson
Member since:
2005-11-29

The OEM defenses here are sickening. People really don't grasp just how vile and incompetent these companies are.

They are the same ones who:
- Ship shoddy , cheap, sub par hardware
- Try to squeeze every dime out of you with fucking Norton AntiVirus trials and a bunch of random crap ware
- Routinely DENY software updates to their devices
- Ship the hardware with ridiculous, idiotic skins which eat battery and kill performance

But they've always been a middle man to enable easy scaling out of form factor diversity. Plus they have a retail footprint that someone like Microsoft never had.

I view them with the same hatred that I view mobile operators. Means to an end, but inefficient in that they add complexity every step of the way.

Windows Phone for example. A great mobile platform. 100,000 apps. Sky high in customer satisfaction. Great reviews. Terrible sales. Why? OEMs and Operators.

OEMs dictate the hardware and Operators control the sales channel.

Apple is so brilliantly successful because it cuts both of these middle men out. Android is successful because it capitulates to them in an astonishing way.

Android is a prime example of OEMs gone wild. Its a fucking suck fest of bullshit, force closes, and an environment where only 7% of devices run the latest version of Android.

Apple was brilliant in scaling out its brick and mortar stores because it gave it the foot print it needed to replace the Operator at the point of sale.

Windows Phone for example in the US lives or dies based off of the whims of AT&T (and VZW and others but lets keep it simple), whereas Apple really isn't at their mercy. In fact, they have enough leverage to get consistently higher subsidies out of Operators.

Today's move by MSFT is significant because its a step towards the Apple model in which Microsoft takes hardware back into its own hands. If in the coming years they can find a clever way to make up for their lack of a retail presence, then they can control the entire end to end experience from the fabrication line to the store shelf.

That's the end goal here. Control.

Reply Score: 4

Great!
by Coxy on Tue 19th Jun 2012 10:55 UTC
Coxy
Member since:
2006-07-01

This looks great. If I was the kind of person who needed more than one computer. I don't see any mouse - I need one of those.

I wonder how long it will be before MS ruin this by accepting "bribes" from software developers to bundle this with 30-day crapware trials. They can't help themselves... it's there nature.

Reply Score: 2

x86 version for non Windows OSes?
by znby on Tue 19th Jun 2012 11:36 UTC
znby
Member since:
2012-02-03

I wonder how locked down the x86 variant will be (or indeed how easy it would be to circumvent any restrictions on it.) If it's effectively a standard PC in tablet form, I think I'd want one.

Reply Score: 1

Love the hardware...
by bolomkxxviii on Tue 19th Jun 2012 12:19 UTC
bolomkxxviii
Member since:
2006-05-19

Sounds like great hardware. However, I bet it has secure boot and DRM galore. Otherwise it would be great to buy a RT model and install Android ICS on it.

I really hope MS can gain some traction with these tablets just for competition sake. I doubt it though. Microsoft will no doubt lock it down hard so only a few file formats are usable and content only available from their store. Only Apple has really managed to make that work with the help of their reality distortion field. ;-)

Reply Score: 2

* yawn *
by dgun on Tue 19th Jun 2012 12:27 UTC
dgun
Member since:
2009-11-23

It has a 10" display. And I suppose the keyboard is for actually doing work if you needed to.

I don't understand the whole tablet thing. They're rinky dink little toys... how many different contraptions do we need whose main function is to play angry birds/amuse us while we wait in the doctor’s office?

Reply Score: 1

Tony Swash
Member since:
2009-08-22

At 13.40 in the keynote video Sinofsky demos Internet Explorer and says "I can browse smoothly" and at that moment the Surface OS freezes.

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

Reply Score: 4

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

At 13.40 in the keynote video Sinofsky demos Internet Explorer and says "I can browse smoothly" and at that moment the Surface OS freezes.

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose


The French doesn't hide the fact that several Apple presentations - including keynotes - had similar failures as well.

Reply Score: 4

Tony Swash Member since:
2009-08-22

The surface tablet froze at the precise moment that Sinofsky said "I can browse smoothly". You couldn't make that shit up, it's perfect comedic timing. It was a relief after a dose of Ballmer (who I thought looked oddly unhappy and downbeat).

This period is such an intense and dangerous inflection point for Microsoft, they really have never faced anything like it. They thought they were under threat from Netscape and the web but they didn't have to change their business model as a software company in order to see that one off. This time the whole tech business paradigm is shifting in a fundamental way and developing software and hardware separately seems to make less and less business sense. For me the Surface presentation left more unanswered questions than answers. The lack of a firm price or release date is telling. Remember that in order for this new hardware business venture to succeed Microsoft has to not just make these things in a reliable way, and sell them in large numbers, but must be able to organise their production processes and supply chains in such way so that they can make a reasonable profit whilst at the very least matching Apple on price. That's pretty tricky.

It's easy to get lost in the surface hype (no pun intended) and specs game. But this is about business and which company or companies will thrive and grow in the new tech mobile device markets and Microsoft and Google (who I expect will also launch their own 'awesome' tablet at their forthcoming IO) must compete against giants such as Samsung and Apple who have decades of experience and a huge head start in building supply chains and product delivery systems.

I thought it was indicative of Microsoft's insecurity as they move into the hardware game that they had to talk up their track record as a hardware maker. And what does that track record consist of? Mice and keyboards and a gaming console that suffered horrible production problems and has never generated a return on capital.

The next couple of years is going to be really, really interesting.

Reply Score: 6

MOS6510 Member since:
2011-05-12

What have Apple presentations got to do with this Microsoft one?

If you really want to compare them you'd notice Microsoft doesn't seem very motivated to demo the device, leading to believe it's very beta. And unlike Apple it doesn't tell us a release date or a price, also leading to believe they don't yet know when they'll finish the device or what it will cost.

That said, it does look like a very interesting device. My feeling says it's more suited for business than personal use though.

It seems it's best used in landscape mode. That's how the stand folds out, the location of the home button and the way the keyboard attaches.

At least is appears to be better than any Android or RIM tablet, but that's not so hard to achieve.

Reply Score: 2

tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

If you really want to compare them you'd notice Microsoft doesn't seem very motivated to demo the device, leading to believe it's very beta. And unlike Apple it doesn't tell us a release date or a price, also leading to believe they don't yet know when they'll finish the device or what it will cost.


WTF are you talking about? Go to Gizmodo or TheVerge, and read their reviews. They've got reviews with photographs of their editors holding and playing with the devices.

Reply Score: 2

MOS6510 Member since:
2011-05-12

Why do I have to go there? Why couldn't Microsoft do this at their own presentation event?

I don't want stills, I want to see video. The spare moments some Microsoft person actually used it we had to do with a cameraman peeking over his shoulder.

Reply Score: 2

Looks interesting I guess.
by etrek on Tue 19th Jun 2012 14:13 UTC
etrek
Member since:
2006-03-29

Why aren't vendors competing with Apple in terms of their Retina display tech? Seems to me that THAT would be the killer feature rather than a cool case & kickstand. Otherwise the specs don't seem that far off from other devices already on the market.

I do not think Microsoft has the cachet to force their version of the "walled garden" on the masses just yet.

As far as the Metro interface goes I have not played with it enough to have an informed opinion as to it's appeal vs Android or Apple.

For me though at the end of the day it's a combination of speed/display/hackability that matters.

YMMV

E.

Reply Score: 1

Well...
by Shadowmane on Tue 19th Jun 2012 15:34 UTC
Shadowmane
Member since:
2006-06-16

Last I checked about a year ago, Surface was supposed to be their multi-touch table, not a tablet. I guess they changed their mind.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Well...
by MollyC on Tue 19th Jun 2012 18:15 UTC in reply to "Well..."
MollyC Member since:
2006-07-04

The Surface tabletop was rebranded to "PixelSense" a while ago.
see pixelsence.com (or, see the link at the bottom of the new surface.com).

Reply Score: 2

RE: Well...
by tomcat on Tue 19th Jun 2012 19:12 UTC in reply to "Well..."
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

There's no reason why the Surface brand can't be expanded to include tablets all the way up to wall-sized interactive displays.

Reply Score: 2

RT is an OEM version
by jefro on Tue 19th Jun 2012 17:05 UTC
jefro
Member since:
2007-04-13

MS is not making an enemy of OEM's. RT is only for OEM use.

I have always been amazed at people. A compare of two cars had one beating the other in every metric used. The one that had a better looking dashboard was declared the winner. People buy what they see. This is why MS and now Apple are so rich. Linux may have good ideas but it will never be the better looking one.

Reply Score: 1

RE: RT is an OEM version
by Lennie on Tue 19th Jun 2012 19:47 UTC in reply to "RT is an OEM version"
Lennie Member since:
2007-09-22

Linux has won in every catagory except desktop/laptop and tablet.

A lot also have a GUI, just take the smartphone or even TV market as an example.

Not that the smartphone market is as big as the PC market yet.

Even so I wouldn't call it a complete failure.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: RT is an OEM version
by Nelson on Tue 19th Jun 2012 19:50 UTC in reply to "RE: RT is an OEM version"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Linux has won in every catagory except desktop/laptop and tablet.


Linux LOST in the mobile phone category. Android is not Linux, it's an abomination of the ideals of FOSS.

The phone isn't fully open, is incompatible with the mainland kernel, and drivers aren't benefiting Linux as a whole.

Unless you count a black box of proprietary hardware and binary blobs as a "Win"

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: RT is an OEM version
by Lennie on Tue 19th Jun 2012 20:26 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: RT is an OEM version"
Lennie Member since:
2007-09-22

Not that I don't agree with you.

But only one piece is missing from the mainline kernel, everything else has been or will soon be merged.

The missing piece is called WaveLock:

http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/app-builder/linux-kernel-33-reunit...

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: RT is an OEM version
by Nelson on Tue 19th Jun 2012 20:30 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: RT is an OEM version"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Wakelocks have always been at the center of the controversy. They're not a minor feature, it's an entire power management scheme.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: RT is an OEM version
by Lennie on Tue 19th Jun 2012 21:52 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: RT is an OEM version"
Lennie Member since:
2007-09-22

I think I read about a month ago that there was movement again to a solution.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: RT is an OEM version
by Treza on Tue 19th Jun 2012 20:34 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: RT is an OEM version"
Treza Member since:
2006-01-11

There can be all sorts of ideals in FOSS.

For example, the BSD folks accept that their code is reused in commercial software. Linux is in GPLv2 instead of GPLv3 as Linus never rejected "Tivoisation"...

There is some work to merge parts of the android patches back into the main kernel tree but, at the end, even forks respect the open source ideals.

Stallman himself had to accept that during the Emacs vs XEmacs war.

Reply Score: 2

Alternate reality
by Treza on Tue 19th Jun 2012 20:22 UTC
Treza
Member since:
2006-01-11

I\'m quite surprised by the reactions shown here. I don\'t see anything special in that thing.

- I only see a glass tablet just like the gazillion Android tablets (from Samsung, LG, acer...).
- There are already plenty of bluetooth keyboard/covers for iPads (for example http://www.logitech.com/fr-fr/tablet-accessories/ipad/keyboard-case...). Some support both portrait and landscape modes.
- The screen resolution is not outstanding.
- The stand seems to have a fixed angle which will be certainly ankward as a laptop, especially as it cannot fully lay on the keyboard...which is a consequence of the screen aspect ratio which is nothing to brag about.

etc.etc...

The OS is Windows8, which is not exactly surprising. The only way Microsoft could alienate the OEM would be to develop special software or OS version for that crap.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Alternate reality
by BlueofRainbow on Tue 19th Jun 2012 20:42 UTC in reply to "Alternate reality"
BlueofRainbow Member since:
2009-01-06

I am also surprised by the comments made here.

However, I don't think this is as simplistic as you are making it to be.

It is a tablet but not Android nor iOS (unless it can freed from its secure boot). Oups - was forgetting RIM's Playbook as a third (distant) alternative .....

There is no legacy X86 apps and code on the Windows 8 for the ARM architecture.

If this product takes off, then it would not be surprising if Windows 8 is the last X86 capable one and essentially the end of the desktop as a user interface metaphor (for Microsoft).

Would I buy one? Likely not - I'll await for a clone especially if it can be jailbroken. I desire the device but not the default OS which will come with it. After 20 years on corporate enforced Windows - I want to be free.

By-the-way, aren't there rumors going around about Apple ditching the X86 architecture and moving to ARM for everything?

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Alternate reality
by Nelson on Tue 19th Jun 2012 20:53 UTC in reply to "RE: Alternate reality"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

There are actually two Surface models.

The higher end one has:

- A full HD 1080p screen (with bonded glass and great viewing angles)
- 64 GB and 128GB of storage
- DisplayPort for outputting greater than 1080p
- A 22nm Core i5 processor which bests anything in any ultrabook announced
- Micro SDCX port
- Support for legacy Windows applications
- Pen digitizer support for writing

It is the uber tablet for productivity

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Alternate reality
by Treza on Tue 19th Jun 2012 22:49 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Alternate reality"
Treza Member since:
2006-01-11

You've forgotten :

- An insane price

I'm not sure that the "ultimate" device which can do everything and replace eBooks, LCD tablets, laptops and desktops (connected to a large screen) actually exists. With its small screen, the current Surface will hardly be as "productive" as a 500$ laptop with a 15" screen.

In some respects, with the "cloud" and portable removable media, such thing does not need to exist : Different devices to access your data.

Depending on the success (or lack thereof) of this product, Microsoft may decide to go the Apple way and restrict some of its software to Microsoft branded hardware. They do that for Xbox, they may do that for phones once they put their hands on Nokia, they may be tempted to do that for tablets : Hubris...

Reply Score: 2

My Comment...
by jello on Tue 19th Jun 2012 21:00 UTC
jello
Member since:
2006-08-08

It's nice to see that Microsoft is creating hardware to sustain their imposed Win8 Metro interface.
Without devices like this Metro will be dead on arrival.
Even if I don't like it, maybe others will.

Anyway...

After looking at the presentation video I was not impressed.
Expected more substance... they all talked about the same stuff, for over 30 minutes.

Besides: this device is either a tablet or a desktop.
It can never be a laptop; you can't write on it while this device is sitting on your lap (using the keyboard).
You need a surface in order to keep the screen standing.

Reply Score: 1

Surface.jpg
by MORB on Tue 19th Jun 2012 21:25 UTC
MORB
Member since:
2005-07-06

The surface tablet summarized in a picture:

http://i.imgur.com/lcnO9.jpg

a bad tablet (windows8) that can turn into a terrible joke of a "laptop" that you can't actually use on your lap

gg

lol @ people enthused by that thing

Reply Score: 5

RE: Surface.jpg
by tomcat on Tue 19th Jun 2012 21:45 UTC in reply to "Surface.jpg"
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

The surface tablet summarized in a picture:

http://i.imgur.com/lcnO9.jpg

a bad tablet (windows8) that can turn into a terrible joke of a "laptop" that you can't actually use on your lap


Errrrr ... you're not capable of folding the cover behind the device, and using the software keyboard? It's competing directly with an iPad. The fact that the cover doubles as a keyboard is a bonus, not a detraction.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Surface.jpg
by MORB on Tue 19th Jun 2012 21:53 UTC in reply to "RE: Surface.jpg"
MORB Member since:
2005-07-06

Errrrr ... you're not capable of folding the cover behind the device, and using the software keyboard? It's competing directly with an iPad.


With windows8? Hahahahaha
This is Zune, tablet edition

Edited 2012-06-19 21:54 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Surface.jpg
by tomcat on Tue 19th Jun 2012 22:13 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Surface.jpg"
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

With windows8? Hahahahaha
This is Zune, tablet edition


Said anonymous Internet guy. Yawn.

It's amusing to see dorks like you rooting for Microsoft to fail here. Don't you tools understand that competition is a good thing?

Edited 2012-06-19 22:16 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Surface.jpg
by dsmogor on Wed 20th Jun 2012 09:51 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Surface.jpg"
dsmogor Member since:
2005-09-01

If only companies like MS believed in that too...

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Surface.jpg
by nej_simon on Wed 20th Jun 2012 10:36 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Surface.jpg"
nej_simon Member since:
2011-02-11

It's amusing to see dorks like you rooting for Microsoft to fail here. Don't you tools understand that competition is a good thing?


Yes, yhat's why I don't want Microsoft to have any share of the mobile device market. Just take a look at what they did to the PC market (consumer lock-in, abuse of patents, abuse of standards, microsoft tax, FUD etc). The move to mobile devices is our chance to finally break free from Microsoft.

With that background it doesn't suprise me that they are using a protection racket to hurt android.

So yes, more competition is good but it should be from other companies than Microsoft.

Edited 2012-06-20 10:45 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Surface.jpg
by lucas_maximus on Wed 20th Jun 2012 14:58 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Surface.jpg"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

YAWN ... this isn't 1999.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Surface.jpg
by dsmogor on Thu 21st Jun 2012 13:49 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Surface.jpg"
dsmogor Member since:
2005-09-01

Yes, it's 21st century, MS has really changed, they are now in patent trolling and partner raping business ;)

Edited 2012-06-21 13:56 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Surface.jpg
by lucas_maximus on Thu 21st Jun 2012 15:36 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Surface.jpg"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Hello they open sourced their whole MVC and Web API frameworks.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Surface.jpg
by MORB on Thu 21st Jun 2012 15:20 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Surface.jpg"
MORB Member since:
2005-07-06

I'm not rooting for them to fail, I'm just making the observation that they are failing.

Only them can do anything about it. I can only laugh.

Also, it gives me something to do while I'm sitting here waiting for that terrible piece of shit visual studio to take 10 minutes to build a medium sized project on a goddamn 4 core cpu. In the consumer electronics space at least they can't get away with selling awful products, which is refreshing.

Edited 2012-06-21 15:25 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Comment by marcp
by marcp on Wed 20th Jun 2012 12:58 UTC
marcp
Member since:
2007-11-23

Looks quite nice, but still it's a closed-source, closed-spec, closed-ecosystem and vendor locking project. I would probobly like it without the Windows logo on it and with the ability to install Linux, BSD, etc on it.

Reply Score: 2

The verge: failure
by vodoomoth on Wed 20th Jun 2012 15:08 UTC
vodoomoth
Member since:
2010-03-30

First, the title "Microsoft Surface Touch Cover has a full multitouch keyboard and touchpad". Since when is a keypad-less keyboard a "full" keyboard? And even if full were referring to "multitouch", how can a keyboard be multitouch?

Second, the Verge's cdn can't even serve the page content.

ON-TOPIC: the best things with this tablet are 1- support for the existing software and 2- the cover that has a keyboard AND a touchpad. Killer idea. This is a tablet that I can think of wanting.

Reply Score: 2

Alternate Reality is right...
by ezraz on Wed 20th Jun 2012 18:46 UTC
ezraz
Member since:
2012-06-20

This is a hail mary and/or demo gear from MS. No way this thing cuts into iPad marketshare anytime soon. They might sell some to people who would never buy an iPad or to corporations as replacements for work laptops, but this thing is a just bad tablet and a bad laptop running the least popular mobile OS.

This sums it up nicely:
http://i.imgur.com/lcnO9.jpg">

Then there's these, been out for years now:
http://tinyurl.com/6w3j927">

Stuck at 22 degrees? That's worse than a laptop. Screen quality worse than iPad too.

I bet these things will look great on the commercial, do amazing things, and appear to smoke an iPad. But I bet in-hand this thing will be iPad1 when Apple will be on iPad4.

More ranting on why this device is only impressive on the surface ;-):
http://wfnk.com/blog/2012/06/on-the-surface/">

Edited 2012-06-20 18:49 UTC

Reply Score: 1

Latest from the windows 8 laugh factory
by MORB on Thu 21st Jun 2012 09:23 UTC
MORB
Member since:
2005-07-06

So that minimalist, "authentic" digital metro experience?

Yeah well, they want to fill every empty square inch with ads

http://community.microsoftadvertising.com/en/marketers-agencies/adv...

rofl

Reply Score: 2

quackalist Member since:
2007-08-27

"...the potential of Windows 8 to deliver rich, brand-safe ad experiences that will add value to consumers and increase engagement opportunities for marketers..."

F'k yeah, still too many lost opportunities and wasted space not adding value.

Reply Score: 1

Comment by ilovebeer
by ilovebeer on Fri 22nd Jun 2012 16:03 UTC
ilovebeer
Member since:
2011-08-08

I haven't read any of the replies to this posting but I'm sure I can sum it up in only a few sentences.

- The MS haters & Linux huggers usual garbage about how MS is a dying/dead company, this new tablet is crap or a rip-off of something else, crying about how it's "locked down", bla bla bla.

- The MS supporters saying how the MS Surface is about to beat the pants off of the competition.

- And the likely minority who actually have a reasonable view... That this new tablet offering looks good so far and has real potential.

We'll see how things unfold for the MS Surface. But I'm sure that won't stop people from getting their panties all in a twist during the process.

Edited 2012-06-22 16:04 UTC

Reply Score: 2