Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 5th Jul 2012 22:27 UTC, submitted by Piet Simons
In the News Interesting charts by Horace Dediu: "As a result the Mac began to whittle down the advantage Windows had. The ratio of Windows to Mac units shipped fell to below 20, a level that was last reached before Windows 95 launched. It's as if the Mac reversed the Windows advantage. This was an amazing turnaround for the Mac. But the story does not end there." Too bad Dediu didn't include Android devices in his charts. The picture would change dramatically, and would downplay the important of either Windows or Mac/iOS. We're in a three-horse race - not the two-horse race Dediu paints.
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Comment by shmerl
by shmerl on Thu 5th Jul 2012 22:54 UTC
shmerl
Member since:
2010-06-08

Erosion of Windows dominance from Mac OSX helps to reduce some lock in into Windows APIs. For example it's beneficial that game production companies start paying more attention to OpenGL now. It gives hope for Linux games renaissance as well. Games are considered one of the major blocking factors for better Linux desktop adoption.

Reply Score: 7

RE: Comment by shmerl
by woegjiub on Thu 5th Jul 2012 23:52 UTC in reply to "Comment by shmerl"
woegjiub Member since:
2008-11-25

Hopefully this trend is only just beginning, and there will be a near-parity of games availability for *nix and windows.

Given the interest shown on sites like reddit and 4chan, the availability of linux-native AAA games would dramatically increase the userbase (obviously not to the point "year of the linux desktop" proponents spout, but certainly a >0.5% marketshare increase [something like 50% increase on current]).

Desktop OSes may just be about to become more diverse, given the effort from companies like valve, canonical, and (as much as I hate to admit it) apple most of all.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by shmerl
by garf on Fri 6th Jul 2012 00:05 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by shmerl"
garf Member since:
2009-01-02

I'm hoping that the Linux efforts by companies like Valve have a big impact on things like proper hardware drivers...

For example, companies like Logitech that have gaming devices (like the G-series keyboards). On my old G-15, yeah the LCD screen works, but I have never been able to get the 18 G-keys to work...

Hopefully it improves drivers across the board.

It has the potential to get these big companies involved in the entire linux stack...

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by shmerl
by ssokolow on Fri 6th Jul 2012 01:21 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by shmerl"
ssokolow Member since:
2010-01-21

For example, companies like Logitech that have gaming devices (like the G-series keyboards). On my old G-15, yeah the LCD screen works, but I have never been able to get the 18 G-keys to work...

Hopefully it improves drivers across the board.

It has the potential to get these big companies involved in the entire linux stack...


Strange. I have one of those and, given that the LCD needs G15Daemon as far as I know, it should work for you. Didn't give me any problems.

Did you make sure your kernel has uinput either built-in or loaded as a module? (That's how G15Daemon remaps the weird hardware keycodes from the three USB HID devices exported by the keyboard to something sane)

Did you set up Xmodmap using the provided config to assign X11 key symbols to the G keys? As I remember, the keycodes G15Daemon emits don't map to any by default.

Edited 2012-07-06 01:23 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Comment by shmerl
by Elv13 on Fri 6th Jul 2012 02:39 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by shmerl"
Elv13 Member since:
2006-06-12

The 18 gkeys are more problematic than the old 6 gkeys. I have both and only the 6 gkeys work fine (the 18 one is the newer g510, but it is the same gardware as the last g15, just rebranded and with a scrollwheel built in)

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Comment by shmerl
by ssokolow on Fri 6th Jul 2012 03:00 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by shmerl"
ssokolow Member since:
2010-01-21

The 18 gkeys are more problematic than the old 6 gkeys. I have both and only the 6 gkeys work fine (the 18 one is the newer g510, but it is the same gardware as the last g15, just rebranded and with a scrollwheel built in)


No, actually. The G15 originally had 18 G keys and a blue backlight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Logitech_Gaming-Keyboard_G15.jpg

Then they pared it down for the second-generation G15, which has 6 G keys.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Logitech_G15v2.png

I didn't know they'd re-created the original G15 with the new non-hinged LCD and restyled multimedia keys under the name G510.

http://www.logitech.com/en-us/keyboards/keyboards/gaming-keyboard-g...

I have the very first kind, for which G15Daemon was originally written.

Edited 2012-07-06 03:00 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Comment by shmerl
by garf on Sat 7th Jul 2012 23:43 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by shmerl"
garf Member since:
2009-01-02

Yeah, as I said, I was able to get the screen working using G15Daemon... that wasn't a problem...

It was ages ago when I tried to get he G-Keys to work... who knows what I tried... Maybe it's worth another go...

My point was, wouldn't it be good if Logitech became more involved and made it more seamless... such as giving us the same GUI to assign keys etc that MS users get...

This is the kind of thing I am hoping would happen as a result of more mainstream games being ported to Linux. Steam would be a massive help.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by shmerl
by moondevil on Fri 6th Jul 2012 05:46 UTC in reply to "Comment by shmerl"
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

Erosion of Windows dominance from Mac OSX helps to reduce some lock in into Windows APIs. For example it's beneficial that game production companies start paying more attention to OpenGL now. It gives hope for Linux games renaissance as well. Games are considered one of the major blocking factors for better Linux desktop adoption.


Where is this happening?

In Europe I seldom see people with Mac systems.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Comment by shmerl
by OSNevvs on Fri 6th Jul 2012 06:52 UTC in reply to "Comment by shmerl"
OSNevvs Member since:
2009-08-20

Building and dismantling the Windows *Genuine* advantage

Reply Score: 1

RE: Comment by shmerl
by JAlexoid on Fri 6th Jul 2012 10:45 UTC in reply to "Comment by shmerl"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

I don't really care for Linux games, per se*, as much as the fact that more people would go cross platform. Using available proven cross-platform tech only helps in the long run.



* - Well... I do, but it's not essential.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Comment by shmerl
by Deviate_X on Fri 6th Jul 2012 13:29 UTC in reply to "Comment by shmerl"
Deviate_X Member since:
2005-07-11

Gaming is has for many years been considered has been considered a Niche activity. Consoles is where its at. This ironically partly due to the activity of the one Microsoft and its xbox..

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Comment by shmerl
by shmerl on Fri 6th Jul 2012 17:35 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by shmerl"
shmerl Member since:
2010-06-08

While gaming is just one market segment, in practice it's quite in demand (I mean on the desktop). Companies like Valve, CD Projekt Red and others aren't suffering from the lack of users. So may be the market is not as huge as some others, in practice it's what often prevents users from abandoning Windows altogether, since at present Windows holds a disproportional majority of PC games (Wine project matured quite a bit and improves this situation, but still). I often hear stories like "I don't mind using Linux, but I need to keep Windows around for games". Therefore the shift of balance towards OpenGL undermines this lock in situation.

Consoles are a separate world (I don't really care about those). I was talking about PC gaming in particular. Though gaming companies trying to maximize their profits are often targeting consoles and PC market both. As demand for OpenGL gaming will grow, companies will work more on supporting portable engines (both with OpenGL and DirectX).

Edited 2012-07-06 17:41 UTC

Reply Score: 5

RE: Comment by shmerl
by zima on Thu 12th Jul 2012 16:58 UTC in reply to "Comment by shmerl"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

It gives hope for Linux games renaissance as well

For there to be a renaissance, there needs to be some prior notable movement before the dearth... (don't tell me you count the sparse and late Loki ports - it's already much better than in their times for the next few years, with organic growth of indy games)

Games are considered one of the major blocking factors for better Linux desktop adoption.

It's an often visible factor (with gamers being among the most vocal on the web), quite notable in that way, but minor really. Vast majority of desktop users don't care much about games (except for FB or Peggle-likes, which either already work, through a browser, or have many OSS clones or even progenitors for a long time)

Reply Score: 2

"Paints"
by jared_wilkes on Fri 6th Jul 2012 02:12 UTC
jared_wilkes
Member since:
2011-04-25

Dediu isn't "painting" a two-horse race; he's modeling disruption. It is a three-horse race (or maybe more), but any primacy of Google's Android position is solely derived on the back of the iOS-fueled Apple disruption. Dediu is always clear on what he is looking at and what he is not looking at. He may even disagree with me that Android momentum is "on the back" of iOS, but just because this post's data only compares Windows OS v. Apple platforms does not mean that he thinks Android is not in the race. Please.

Reply Score: 5

Android and iPhone
by thesunnyk on Fri 6th Jul 2012 02:39 UTC
thesunnyk
Member since:
2010-05-21

There isn't enough Android on tablets to warrant any data on Android tablets displacing PCs. However, I don't buy the iPhone line either. I mean, until very recently, you needed a PC (or mac) just to get an iPhone to work. I'm not even sure if they do OTA updates yet.

The iPhone is tied inextricably to iTunes, so to say that someone buying an iPhone is now no longer buying a PC is just ridiculous. And that's ignoring the fact that PCs and phones have such enormously different form factors that they effectively occupy different markets.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Android and iPhone
by henderson101 on Fri 6th Jul 2012 09:29 UTC in reply to "Android and iPhone"
henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

OTA for almost a year now.

Reply Score: 3

You can't have your cake and eat it too
by Nelson on Fri 6th Jul 2012 02:48 UTC
Nelson
Member since:
2005-11-29

Windows 8 is continuously slammed by some on here because its "a tablet OS" and isn't productive, however this article shows clear trends of where the industry is going.

It has without a doubt moved to mobile form factors and left desktops in the dust in favor of notebook form factors. (Battery consciousness and sub 20inch screens being key here)

This is followed up by an even more dramatic move to tablets. By 2016 tablets are expected to outpace the entire PC market. This is why the Apple strategy is bound to win eventually, if Microsoft does nothing.

This is exactly what the big bet in Windows 8 is about.
Hell, this is probably behind Google's recent power play into the Tablet market.

All the big players recognize where the next war is. Exciting times.

Reply Score: 2

shmerl Member since:
2010-06-08

Tablets won't replace high end desktops for a long time still. They are a significant market, but they aren't not replacing desktops by any means.

Edited 2012-07-06 03:21 UTC

Reply Score: 4

MollyC Member since:
2006-07-04

Tablets won't replace desktops, but tablets will outsell desktops 10 to 1 in a few years (if not sooner). Which is why the demands that Microsoft cater to desktop rather than tablet form factor make no sense.

Reply Score: 2

shmerl Member since:
2010-06-08

It doesn't make sense to neglect either one, or to make something with "one size fits all" method. Both use cases need distinct design approaches, and those who don't address them separately are degrading the user experience.

Reply Score: 3

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

I just really don't think so. As Desktops become more and more niche devices, they command less and less attention. I think many people have a desktop to have one, not because they actually get tons of work done on it. Switching to other form factors I think will be natural and an eventuality for a lot of consumers.

Reply Score: 2

shmerl Member since:
2010-06-08

I can imagine how someone will try using a complex IDE, graphical or publishing / video / audio editors, or some 3D modeling software on a tablet. It's simply doesn't let such kind of usage productively. So desktops aren't going anywhere. Tablets might become more widespread, but desktops are here to stay. And it's good to remember, that making and debugging programs for those very tablets developers will prefer using comfortable widescreen monitors and ergonomic keyboards. Therefore any universal OS needs to address regular desktop use case.

Edited 2012-07-06 07:02 UTC

Reply Score: 3

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

I do development on a Samsung tablet w HDMI output and bluetooth keyboard. I don't notice a difference. I agree however, there will always be a niche.

Edited 2012-07-06 07:23 UTC

Reply Score: 2

shmerl Member since:
2010-06-08

HDMI output where? To some monitor I guess. The size of the computer doesn't matter (it can be the size of a grain or whatever). But the size of usable interfaces is human factor, therefore wide screens and keyboards are non replaceable so far. And for these, UI needs to be fitting. Mobile UI designed for small screens with touch input is not productive in such case. Running regular desktop UI on mobile computer with external devices like monitor and keyboard makes more sense.

Reply Score: 4

zima Member since:
2005-07-06

I can imagine how someone will try using a complex IDE, graphical or publishing / video / audio editors, or some 3D modeling software on a tablet. It's simply doesn't let such kind of usage productively. So desktops aren't going anywhere. Tablets might become more widespread, but desktops are here to stay.

I refuse to believe you have such weak imagination... it looks more as if you're purposefully trying to not see how absolutely awesome "a complex [...] graphical or publishing / video / audio editors, or some 3D modeling software" can be on a touchscreen.
Preferably a largish touchscreen, for most of them, sure - but that's still closer to a tablet than to a traditional desktop.
And/or, possibly similarly great, synthesis of the two - where ~tablet acts as the primary input device, most of the interactive elements on it (while large monitor - all wirelessly connected perhaps - offers mostly a full-screen preview of edited video or newspaper layout, for example; still very different from present desktops, with very different UI model)

That leaves IDE...

And it's good to remember, that making and debugging programs for those very tablets developers will prefer using comfortable widescreen monitors and ergonomic keyboards. Therefore any universal OS needs to address regular desktop use case.

...which is done by minuscule number of people. So don't be surprised if "any universal OS" won't be pandering to them too much. Maybe that means a sort of return of one category of old-style workstations / terminals. Maybe they'll be happy with hooking up a keyboard to the "more touch" OS. Maybe touchscreen for ~input + large display for ~output will often suffice (with keyboard displayed on the touchscreen - you might shrug it off, but good development is not about typing a lot quickly). We'll see, the sky won't fall either way (or, possibly, if we'll do all of those three, and maybe some other variants)

Reply Score: 2

zima Member since:
2005-07-06

It doesn't make sense to neglect either one, or to make something with "one size fits all" method. Both use cases need distinct design approaches, and those who don't address them separately are degrading the user experience.

That is a bit false dichotomy, sort of - what if there is an UI approach which nicely brings them together, perhaps ending up largely better than the present disjointed state?
For us to know, this needs to be tried first... or the alternative (quoting somebody http://www.osnews.com/permalink?526476 ) "With this logic nothing new can ever be produced. It's the mood of total stagnation. [...] Those who don't want can stay behind." (surely such views are not dependent on whether it's about MS or some OSS darling...)

Edited 2012-07-13 00:06 UTC

Reply Score: 2

grahamtriggs Member since:
2009-05-27

"It has without a doubt moved to mobile form factors and left desktops in the dust in favor of notebook form factors."

Sure, phones and tablets will become an increasing part of how we consume media, and do 'simple' tasks like email.

But they aren't going to replace desktops / laptops. They - and their multi-tasking, multi-window OSes - are far too useful and productive for heavy duty workloads.

And this is the fundamental problem of Windows 8. They are miles behind Android and iOS in the mobile form factor race, and are likely to remain there (although Metro is a good interface for tablets, Windows 8 as a whole doesn't bring anything to tablets that they really need, apart from unnecessary bloat). But it shafts desktops and laptops for what they are, and will remain, really useful for.

Wth iOS the dominant mobile OS (at least as far as tablets / selling software is concerned), and MacOS being the primary development platform for it (as well as being a suitable Android dev platform) - whilst being focussed on what desktops / laptops do well - there is a risk that Windows 8 could completely decimate Microsoft's OS business.

Reply Score: 4

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29


Sure, phones and tablets will become an increasing part of how we consume media, and do 'simple' tasks like email.

But they aren't going to replace desktops / laptops. They - and their multi-tasking, multi-window OSes - are far too useful and productive for heavy duty workloads.


I have to disagree with this mischaracterization. Especially in light of Surface coming with a keyboard.


And this is the fundamental problem of Windows 8. They are miles behind Android and iOS in the mobile form factor race, and are likely to remain there (although Metro is a good interface for tablets, Windows 8 as a whole doesn't bring anything to tablets that they really need, apart from unnecessary bloat). But it shafts desktops and laptops for what they are, and will remain, really useful for.


I am curious about the bloat you speak of? I guess I'll also have to strongly disagree that it cripples laptops. Its still Windows, there's still a Desktop.

Are some things slightly more difficult? Arguably. But a lot of what's been said is hyperbole. I do development every day and windows 8 suits me fine.

Wth iOS the dominant mobile OS (at least as far as tablets / selling software is concerned), and MacOS being the primary development platform for it (as well as being a suitable Android dev platform) - whilst being focussed on what desktops / laptops do well - there is a risk that Windows 8 could completely decimate Microsoft's OS business.


I question the wisdom of statements like these. Especially since people have been saying Microsoft is doomed for over a decade.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by PieterGen
by PieterGen on Fri 6th Jul 2012 16:01 UTC
PieterGen
Member since:
2012-01-13

The most ardent Windows-fans are nowadays older IT managers in large organizations. They grew up with Microsoft and they believe that users are not willing to use a different OS. Even though a lot of these users (minus the mentioned older IT managers) use iPads and Android devices at home ;)

Reply Score: 4

RE: Comment by PieterGen
by lucas_maximus on Sun 8th Jul 2012 09:15 UTC in reply to "Comment by PieterGen"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Actually there are a huge amount of people that think Windows 7 kicks arse that aren't older IT managers.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by ilovebeer
by ilovebeer on Fri 6th Jul 2012 16:33 UTC
ilovebeer
Member since:
2011-08-08

I wish people would get it through their head that tablets are not replacements for desktops. While they may share similarities, they are not the same type of device used for all the same tasks. My work would simply be impossible to do on a tablet, yet for some insane reason you see people on here actually suggesting desktops are becoming a 'niche' thing.

You also hear the argument that tablets are "projected" to outsell desktops in X amount of years. However, those people completely ignore the fact that desktops are still selling in the hundreds of millions per year, hardly slowing at all as this `tablet takeover` is supposed to be happening.

In all honesty, it's hard not to laugh at some of this stuff. As integrated as computers are in our lives and society, how can people be so blind?

Reply Score: 4

RE: Comment by ilovebeer
by moondevil on Fri 6th Jul 2012 16:43 UTC in reply to "Comment by ilovebeer"
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

In all honesty, it's hard not to laugh at some of this stuff. As integrated as computers are in our lives and society, how can people be so blind?


They are fashion victims.

Tablets are the new TVs, are mostly good to consume only information while costing more than a decent netbook.

People really like to waste money.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by ilovebeer
by bnolsen on Fri 6th Jul 2012 17:06 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by ilovebeer"
bnolsen Member since:
2006-01-06

There is the potential to dual purpose tablets to become productivity machines when configured as such. It's just that the hardware isn't quite there yet. Probably the most successful one so far is the asus transformer family, but by no means is it all the way there yet.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by ilovebeer
by mkone on Mon 9th Jul 2012 22:31 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by ilovebeer"
mkone Member since:
2006-03-14

Fashion victims hey? This superiority rubbish can really grate. I suppose you are the superior human being who is unswayed by these fashion. It's one thing to not like something. It's quite another to dismiss a whole section of society buying something as essentially stupid.

Tablets are useful for people. I was on the plane today. I got my iPad out, went on to ft.com. It proceeded to download todays FT edition onto the tablet, and I was able to read the FT on the plane without requiring an internet connection. Try that with a normal laptop. Ever tried using a normal laptop on a plane even? I have, it's absolutely awful. Too heavy, the base just gets in the way.

Tablets are the future, deal with it.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Comment by ilovebeer
by ilovebeer on Tue 10th Jul 2012 03:53 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by ilovebeer"
ilovebeer Member since:
2011-08-08

Tablets are the future of what? They do indeed have their own little place in the world of computing, but a tablet is not replacing anything.

Btw, I have a netbook with a significantly bigger 12.1" screen vs. your ipad 7.9". It's slightly thicker than an ipad, slightly heavier, and slightly longer footprint but far more powerful & capable. It works fine with cellular too. It has likely 15-30 times the storage as your ipad. And it cost me probably half of what you paid.

Tablets are convenient media consumption devices, but little more than that. They have their place but calling them the future is ... silly.

Reply Score: 2

Gaming, gaming, gaming
by bnolsen on Fri 6th Jul 2012 17:15 UTC
bnolsen
Member since:
2006-01-06

One tool that MS used to lock developers into windows (direct3d) is now hamstringing them.

With both android and ios both using opengles and owning almost the entire mobile/tablet market, direct3d now is a huge liability. It forces developers to use (and perhaps learn) a proprietary and exclusive API.

And we're seeing developers targeting opengles and just skipping anything direct3d altogether.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Gaming, gaming, gaming
by lucas_maximus on Fri 6th Jul 2012 22:20 UTC in reply to "Gaming, gaming, gaming"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Not really most game engines have both a OpenGL and DirectX renderer.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Gaming, gaming, gaming
by shmerl on Fri 6th Jul 2012 22:33 UTC in reply to "Gaming, gaming, gaming"
shmerl Member since:
2010-06-08

Unfortunately DirectX is far from dead. It's used for most Windows games, and it's the main base for Xbox which is a big segment of the gaming market. Right now OpenGL starts getting back on track, but DirectX won't be dropped by game developing companies at least in the foreseeable future.

Edited 2012-07-06 22:33 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE: Gaming, gaming, gaming
by moondevil on Sun 8th Jul 2012 07:10 UTC in reply to "Gaming, gaming, gaming"
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

One tool that MS used to lock developers into windows (direct3d) is now hamstringing them.


Microsoft is not the only one to blame.

Have you ever bother to see the offering in OpenGL tooling and support compared with DirectX?

It's almost non-existant.

Most of the companies that live from 3D graphics decided to go along with Microsoft due to the slowness of OpenGL standardization.


Regardless of what one thinks of Apple, if it wasn't for the iPhone usage of OpenGL, the standard would have died.

And before Apple decided to invest in open source and become the company for UNIX fans, it was full of proprietary technology as well. Remember Quickdraw 3D?

Reply Score: 2

Comment by ilovebeer
by ilovebeer on Fri 6th Jul 2012 22:16 UTC
ilovebeer
Member since:
2011-08-08

You're kidding yourself if you think any significant number of Windows users remain using Windows simply because of the games. The vast majority of Windows users are not gamers. And let's face it, it's not as if there are some great alternatives available. OSX has earned a little popularity but still easily shadowed by Windows. Of course Linux is at the bottom of the list, while it always has been and will remain for the forseeable future.

Reply Score: 2

v 1
by Anonymous on Thu 12th Jul 2012 13:51 UTC