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Keyboards for tablets should be built-in, otherwise, get a netbook. But a pointer device built in is at least a step in the right direction.

It would hardly be a Thinkpad without the former, would it? I get the impression the red nipple is as much for brand recognition as actual functionality now.

The tablet's not on my radar, but I wouldn't even consider a laptop that didn't come with a Trackpoint clitoris.

Heck, I'd actually be willing to pay extra for a Thinkpad or Tecra that was Trackpoint-only, sans those putrid multitouch-touchpad things.

Agreed. I've got the Thinkpad x200 because it only came with the nipple, not a trackpad. I dislike duplication of function. Nothing against trackpads, they're better for general moseying around, graphical work &c, but if you code or write then the nipple is much more suitable.

I fell in love with the trackpoint-style pointer on my very first laptop, a Texas Instruments 4000M that was a high school graduation present from my estranged father way back in 1995. I've never gotten used to the touchpad that has been on nearly every laptop I've had since then. Either it's way too big and interferes with typing despite supposed palm-sensing tech, or it's way too small to be of any use as a pointer.

I've resorted to just leaving the touchpad turned off with this laptop and either using an external mouse or (in Linux) using keyboard commands to get around. Trying to type with it turned on is an exercise in frustration that makes me want to toss it against the wall.

Totally agree with you. Those who never used a trackpoint (at least for more than 1 day), do not understand how good they are.

kwanbis ~from HA? Hm, consistency-wise (scientific method, rigorous testing methodology, and so on), I'd expect something better from you than "Those who never used a trackpoint (at least for more than 1 day), do not understand how good they are"

...because, see, actual research suggest that trackpoints are inferior to touchpads (some examples linked in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_stick#Comparison_with_touchpa... & http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=18522893 external link; and, conversely, note how the views and links supportive of trackpoint seem to be "subjective opinion" in character)

Reminds me also of http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/Mouse_vs._keyboard/index.html

(and personally I do like trackpoints, I'm used to the concept; but...)

Edited 2012-08-16 23:42 UTC

Don't get me wrong. I love trackpoints and I'm no fan of touch (I still have a dumbphone and I have no intention of switching from my trusty keyboard-controlled tiling window manager anytime soon), but I do appreciate me some fine irony. The comment about the trackpoint being for marketing purposes is dead on--what kind of ThinkPad wouldn't have a trackpoint? Or for that matter a stylus--isn't that so typically IBM-esque?

Accordingly, what kind of ThinkPad really fits in with Microsoft's vision of Windows 8? None that I know of. And that's not necessarily a bad thing.

You might want to reconsider your reasons for feeling that way... http://www.osnews.com/permalink?531357

I was using tablets w/ keyboard way before it was popular with the Nokia 770 and then the N800 along with my folding Stowaway Bluetooth keyboard. It seems like a minor detail, but being a humanities graduate student with lots and lots of physical paper (or vellum, ha) all around me at all times, it is very useful to be able to have the keyboard detached and move it around.

Nor do I think that what tablet + keyboard combos offer can only appeal to niches like myself. The main difference between tablets and laptops isn't in the features, it's in how they use the space in front of you.

The immediate area where your hands land on a desk right in front of you is prime real estate for working while sitting, and laptops occupy that space entirely with the keyboard/trackpad/chassis, which is inflexibly attached to the screen. That's fine and all if all your work is on the computer, but what if you're working with mixed media? What if you need to also refer to a book, printed journal articles, or physical photographs? Then the laptop becomes a big pain; even desktops become preferable at that point. Tablets go a long way to solve that problem.

I think this is where the Asus Transformer gets it right: Fully functional tablet for when you don't need to type, with a very nice keyboard dock for when you do. When it's docked, you have nearly 20 hours of battery life and it's so seamless it actually feels like a laptop computer. My best friend has one and I have to say it's the closest I've come to wanting a 10-inch tablet, only because of the amazing dock. If it weren't for the price I'd use one instead of this laptop without a moment's hesitation.

Yep, I almost bought one.

But around the same time Asus had netbooks with Linux here in Germany, using the AMD Fusion E-450 with 4GB RAM/500GB disk costing around 300€ vs 500€ for the Asus Transformer. With a battery time of around 6hours, if you don't abuse the GPU or wireless.

I decided to save 200€ and be able to use a plain Linux distribution without Android's restrictions.

Lenovo is one of the companies who practically explicitly state they they deny refunds for bundled software. Up until recently, their rules used to say:

Then, they were hit with a court ruling which exposed such product tying as illegal. They changed the wording a bit (not the essence though):



I.e. they still pretend you can't get a refund, if you bought the software together with the hardware.

Next you'll want a refund for the OS that runs on your microwave oven.

Its one thing to want the freedom to install another OS, its another thing to demand a refund for an OS which was sold to Lenovo at a volume discounted rate.

This steers into the realm of ridiculousness.

You know very well it's not the same thing at all. Comparing hard-coded firmware to user-uninstallable software is misleading and beneath you.

The rest of your statement has no legs to stand on. Microsoft's own EULA states that you can and should seek a refund if you don't agree with the terms of the EULA. If the hardware manufacturer won't comply, they still have to honor their own warranty and refund for a defective purchase. The only way they can avoid that would be to post the entire Microsoft OS EULA on their website or at the physical point of sale, and require you to agree to it before completing the purchase.

If your take on it was the way the world worked, then every store in existence would just mark down all their products by a penny and say "we sold it to you at a discounted rate, therefore you are not eligible for a refund or exchange". The public wouldn't stand for that, and neither should computer purchasers.

Tablets are absolutely an appliance. The experience is completed by the combination of hardware and software. They are decidedly not general purpose devices, and are not sold or advertised as such.



Maybe you wish for it to not have legs to stand on. True, after some legalese you may end up wringing a refund out of an OEM, but in the process you'll have spend potentially hundreds filing in a small claims court, weeks of your time, and receive something like a $100 dollar check. That's if they don't demand you return the entire device outright.

So just because you legally can do something, doesn't mean it is reasonable or right to demand one. I believe the same argument is made for software patents, they're perfectly legal in the US too, but according to many, the exercise of that legal right is reprehensible.

You're opening a can of worms with that one. The laws exist to serve the people, not the other way around. The moment the laws become oppressive is the moment they should be changed. That is what most of us here hope for with regard to software patents; right now they serve only to oppress the individual and take away their rights.

That's a rather..primitive view of how the law should function. It is also largely besides my point that a measuring stick for morality is not legality.

Just because you can, maybe, after extensive legal procedure, get a $100 check, doesn't mean it makes sense to do so, nor does it make my statement that tablets are appliances any less true.

You're confusing "core" with "primitive". So are you suggesting that the law should oppress the people? I weep for your future generations...

What makes sense, is to be able to buy the computer with OS of your choice or with no OS (so you could install something else there).

The fact that one has to go through complex refund process is caused by monopolistic practices (of MS in this case), precisely as you pointed out for the purpose of making it too hard that it shouldn't make sense to bother doing it. It only proves the point of crookedness of MS and OEMs who do this bundling.

Edited 2012-08-09 20:33 UTC

Tablets are absolutely not an appliance. They are mobile computers.

Like I said before, good luck asking Apple for a refund for the cost of iOS

They are appliances that happen to make use of a computing system to work, exactly the same way a GPS system, a fridge or games console.

You know very well it's not the same thing at all. Comparing hard-coded firmware to user-uninstallable software is misleading and beneath you. " [/q]

Can I play Socrates for a moment?
If I flash my own firmware onto a microwave oven, why should I not then be able to legitimately demand a refund for the firmware that was bundled, according to the logic of the commenter that started this discussion?

Second Socratic query: This Lenovo device is being sold, not as a "general purpose computer that just happens to have a particular OS bundled with it", it's being sold as a "Windows 8 tablet computer". That is, Windows 8 is part of the device being sold, just as the track nipple is part of the device being sold. Is that way of looking at it wrong, and if so, why?

Lets look at the different angle. Microwave firmware has been created as part of creation of specific microwave series and suits no purpose other than operating specific microwave type. It is not a product being sold separately, and hence has no commercial value.
On the other hand, Windows 8 is a commercial product, not related in any way with specific tablet.

In this case, "Windows 8 tablet computer" is just a short name for "General purpose tablet computer with Windows 8 preinstalled".

Tablet computer is not an appliance. It's a mulitpurpose universal computer device. Therefore your example is irrelevant.

While the notion of many vendors to turn computers into appliances is known (that logic helps them to lock them up), users should resist such kind of logic as much as possible, especially when it comes to real multipurpose devices.

A tablet is not a general purpose device. Do you think you'd have luck asking Apple for a refund on an iPad for the cost of iOS?

Only because some vendors want to prevent this. There is no logical reason for it not to be a general purpose device. Small form factor of the computer should not detract from the general purpose of its computing capabilities. Therefore people should be opposed to the restriction notion.

See also "War on general purpose computing" as a good review of this issue (which explains why vendors would want to change the perception of computers to appliances):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUEvRyemKSg

Apple are notorious in their notions of locking things up and thwarting interoperability, so bringing them as an example only strengthens the point above about bad practices of manufacturers.

Edited 2012-08-09 20:29 UTC

If people were opposed, then there would be a reflection in the sales. Obviously the market is in demand of a device that is an end to end experience. The coupling of hardware and software is just a means to that end.

Market is controlled by aware people (if there are a lot of them), i.e. if they boycott something for example for some reason. For most it's hard to be aware of the technicalities, that's why sales don't reflect anything about what's proper or what should be.

Edited 2012-08-09 20:38 UTC

I do feel limited by the 1366x768 resolution on this 15 inch screen; I'd much prefer something like 1680x1050. But, on a 10 inch tablet I think 1366x768 would be acceptable. Once your screen gets that small, the benefit of higher resolution begins to taper off and there comes a point where you have to zoom everything just to make it readable.