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How come did the guy demonstrated OIS on 820? Isn't it supposed to get casual 8mp without any stabilization?
As for offline maps they haven't saved Nokia for last 5 years (though they made my N9 replace hw GPS device).

The device shown was a 920. 820 doesnt have OIS or the improved low light performance but it does share improved software side image processing.

Edited 2012-09-06 19:04 UTC

Right, I skipped through it and didn't notice he swapped devices, my bad.

Fairly sure that's just a refined N950, which was the developer phone prior to the release of the N9.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N950

http://www.2dayblog.com/2011/07/02/nokias-n950-demos-meego-harmatta...

the black & grey ones will be matte.

Don't you know? That's how you cater to the masses these days... just make it look pretty, and preferably make sure it comes in lots of different colors too. Devices have to be 'sexy' these days; to hell with how they actually function. (Well, except for the camera... gotta have a good camera for all that food porn you'll be uploading to hipstergram.)

Yeap I totally agree with you there. However it is a very tough sell considering it only runs Windows Phone. To date, I haven't met One person who was satisfied with Windows Phone OS; although to be honest it is a very small sample size since there aren't that many out there.

It does surprise me as they are good phones.

Well, I don't like the cheaper Lumia models. One co-worker has one and compared to my Lumia 800 it looks 'n' feels a bit, ehm, crap. The main reason for this are the hardware buttons on the front which feel really bad.

My Lumia has never crashed, although it turned itself off a few times for no apparent reason and sometimes the GPS goes mental. Apart from that it's fast and responsive, good battery life.

The only real odd think about it is when you turn if off and on it can happen that the time and date is totally random, even if it's set to automatically set time. I unset this, set the date/time, turn it back on and it's fine.

I bought a Lumia 710 a few months ago besides my iPhone to play with Windows Phone. And I have to say, for the price (~205 Euro) it is quite a good and sturdy phone. If you compare it to other phones in the same price range, it is robust and has an acceptable screen. The real buttons and the camera are not so nice.

I absolutely love Windows Phone 7.5. The user interface is fresh and different, and I can't wait to try one of the Windows Phone 8 phones. If Nokia isn't nuked by halfway next year and Microsoft's update policy is acceptable, I'll probably get an 820 or 920 when my contract runs out.

My current iPhone is probably last. I don't like companies that do not compete with innovation.

Edited 2012-09-06 19:09 UTC

That's odd, everyone I know with a WP7 phone is incredibly happy with it. that's no small amount either, i know about ton of people with them.

That's odd. All the people I know who've actually bought and used a WP7 phone are very happy with them.

I have a WP7 phone, although i miss a few features (call whitelist/blacklist mostly) i'm pretty happy with it.

I can see myself upgrading to a wp8 device in a ~year.

Yeap I totally agree with you there. However it is a very tough sell considering it only runs Windows Phone. To date, I haven't met One person who was satisfied with Windows Phone OS; although to be honest it is a very small sample size since there aren't that many out there. "


Not buying that at all. You clearly don't know anybody who uses Windows Phone. Let me guess: Andr01d or iPh0n3 rokz 4ever, right?

Edited 2012-09-07 03:38 UTC

Phones don't lock out people, people do.

If you're a Windows user, which most people are, what's wrong with buying a phone that works with Windows?

Should you switch to Linux the worst that can happen is that you can't hook up your phone to it, but who does that anyway these days? It's all WiFi, Bluetooth and cloud stuff now.

Wow, didn't know you could connect a pc to a lumia phone with wifi. How do you do that?

And again: I'm not suggesting that average people would know or care, I'm just having a hard time understanding how someone rooting for haiku and risc os while mourning the fate of beos still have only praises for this thing that deliberately makes it even more difficult to use anything other than mainstream os'es.

And about average people, just an example: Every classroom in my childrens school has a pc and some kind of "interactive whiteboard" with a projector and bluetooth connected pens, which is very frequently used. When one of the teachers has bought a "new nokia" and for the first time tries to copy off some pictures from the last school trip to show on the whiteboard, it won't work **** ONLY because microsoft decided that it MUST NOT work *****

The computers are running linux, as is every computer in the whole school district. As are the computers in the libraries. This is real, and happening, and microsoft is fighting it every way they can, as always. Still it might go the way of beos, only because people doesn't care.

I don't know, but I didn't say that. What I meant is that connecting your phone to other devices/services is done using wireless technology these days. You don't need to transfer pictures to your computer to upload them to Facebook, you don't need to synchronize your address book via a wire with your computer. You don't even need a wire anymore to charge or connect a headset.

The teacher bought the wrong phone, but then he or she still could have put the pictures on-line. I'm not sure the IT department would like personnel filling up hard drives with pictures and other stuff.

If millions of people start using Linux then Nokia will put in the effort. Right now it makes no business sense to get all the hassle those hundreds of different Linux distributions give you for the VERY small percentage of Linux users that would/could buy a Lumia.

For a Linux user an Android phone would be a more logical choice.

There, you said it yourself:

"The teacher bought the wrong phone"

And this is what the teacher WILL tell every friend, and this is what the IT department WILL tell every teacher.

You are not suggesting that the IT department would rather have the teachers use facebook to be able to show photos in the classroom, are you? Or do you mean that showing photos in the classroom can not possibly be part of the teaching?

Btw, with any old nokia you don't even have to copy over the picture to the harddrive. You just plug in the cable or connect with bluetooth and open the picture directly from the phone. Neat isn't it with working standards?

Not sure you'd want to show pictures taken with an old Nokia phone, they'd be very bad and this badness will be magnified even more on a projection screen.

If a teacher working with Linux computers wants to take pictures with a mobile phone and show them on a Linux computer he'd better make sure the mobile phone he wants to buy can do this.

Or:
http://www.todoleo.com/2012/05/nokia-lumia-710-and-ubuntu-they-spea...

I see nothing wrong with putting pictures on Facebook and showing them in a classroom.

I have a lot of Apple stuff at home and prefer Linux to Windows, but my son has a Windows computer (and an iMac!), because all kinds of educational stuff only runs on Windows. If your school works with Linux they'll have a lot more/worse problems than showing kids pictures taken on some trip.

Bad pictures? Are you trying to be funny? Old nokia in this context includes phones like N8, N9 and the mighty 808 pureview. And at least 50 other models producing pictures way better than a projector will be able to show anyway.

Phones where these kind of things, you know, just work. Which old nokia customers are likely to assume will continue to work on any new nokia, and they will be disappointed.

But ok, since microsoft is desperately trying to invent ways to lock in their existing customers before they loose them we might as well just let them. They will surely win anyway, resistance is futile. Who am I to dream of a technology world where there is diversity and choise, made possible by working interoperability standards.

....


I spoke with the headmaster, the only problem with using linux he remembered was when pupuils sometimes work on a text at home and brings it back to school, the formatting might be off if they were using an incompatible word processor at home. I suggested that he could suggest to parents that they install the same wordprocessor at home that the school uses, since it is free and available for all operating systems. Good idea, he said.

Not too unreasonable request in my opinion, anyway much more reasonable than requiring people to buy a program that might not even be available for the os you are using.

Of course there could be problems in countries where people have already given in to vendor lock-in. What you are saying seems to be that it is too late to change anything where you live. Sad.

Edited 2012-09-06 07:13 UTC

When you mention "old Nokia phones" I assumed you meant old Nokia phone. The 808 was released earlier this year. Maybe "previous models" describes better what you mean.

But apparently more current Nokia models can be made to work with Linux, if the Linux distribution is also current.

If you're very fond of standards and openness then go for it. If more and more people do this then companies will go with it too if those kinds of products sell more.

Not having standard connectivity between a Nokia Lumia and a Linux PC is currently for must people not a problem or a factor when buying.

I'll agree with you that the world would be nice and happier if everything was based on open standards and would be compatible with each other, but the world isn't like that and until it is you have to pay attention what you buy based on what you want to do with it.

My previous reply was made before your edit.

The software my kid uses on his Windows PC is nothing to do with his school, it's just some educational stuff my wife wants him to do to get some extra education.

I know they only use Windows at school, so I wouldn't be surprised that parents/kids that don't use Windows will run in to some problems at some point in time.

For me this isn't a big deal as I'm technical savvy and have loads of idle hardware. It is nasty for people that don't have these mental and physical recourses. In that case I agree with you that, certainly on the educational level, open and free standards should be the way.

But I don't think a Nokia Lumia is part of our kids education. Any normal camera with a memory card should have no problems getting them on a Linux PC.

As I mentioned before apparently you can hook up a Lumia to a Linux PC and access its media.

That's a huge privacy and rights violation. Who in their right mind would do that?

Edited 2012-09-06 18:23 UTC

With Zune Software you can wifi connect any Windows Phone device. But you can only sync Music, Pictures and Videos. And it only works with Windows-devices.

You might have missed the crucial modifier to his statement - "as an os-geek"

The os-geek pas part of an statement regarding Thom's public endorsement of the new Lumia.

I don't think his personal characteristics (should) have any influence of the population targeted by Nokia. They target the average customer, like most companies do because this is the largest group of people. The average customer uses Windows.

Issues of open standards/protocols aren't high if at all on the average consumer's list (even if they should be). If it works it works, if it doesn't it's crap.

Relative few people use Linux, most have put some thought in to why they want to Linux. I assume they'll also put in this same amount of planning when selecting a phone and most will probably go for a Linux based Android phone and not a WP7/8 Nokia one.

What phones Don't work with Windows BTW?

And just because these phone run Windows doesn't make them flexible like PCs that run windows. On any PC you buy today you have the freedom to put an alternative OS on it. We should demand the same of our phones, it's our hardware after all.

The current trend seems to be restricting what you can run on hardware that used to be open, not giving you more freedom on devices that are currently locked down.

At some point you'll probably have to "jailbreak" your PC to install an alternative OS.

That you need a PC to connect it to, is a dealbreaker for me. I never need to connect my (ancient) N900 to a PC. Not even for (the vast majority of) OS updates. I can't think of a good reason why you would be required to have certain software running on a PC to be ably to make full use of your smartphone...

You don't. Go to the carrier. They'll upgrade it for you while you wait.

Well, there is Windows Phone 7 Connector for the Mac as well. Consequently, ~99% of the population can connect their WP7 to their computer.

By the way, isn't Windows Phone 8 going to support over-the-air updates?

If you want to complain that it has no Linux support then you should rightly go write a nasty letter to the Linux devs, start with Torvalds and work your way down. or do you blame the farmer who raised the beef when Mickey D's gives you a lousy burger?

The simple fact is as long as Torvalds, giant ego that he is, refuses to allow a stable ABI or API then the vast majority of companies simply won't support you, its just THAT simple. You can write a piece of software in Windows and have it run on anything from Win2K-Win 8 X64 and moreover it will KEEP running without having a team of devs constantly rewrite the thing. Don't give us that 'Just give us the code" BS either, we saw how well that worked with AMD, most companies aren't gonna bet their business on some stranger writing their programs for them, give it up chuck.

So either give the companies a platform that can be "written once, used for years" or don't complain when nobody supports you, most places have better things to spend money on than a team of devs to support an OS with 0.97% market share.

As for TFA, they look pretty which to the masses seems to be important, but I don't see any Micro-SD slot and considering those that were dumb enough to buy winPhone 7 won't be getting WinPhone 8 I have to wonder how many are gonna risk taking another shot. like it or not with Android phones you can usually get one or even two updates, if by no other means Cyanogenmod, but with WinPhone you really have to look at the history of the company and MSFT has a nasty habit of pulling the rug out from under users, playsforsure,Zune,Kin,Sidekick anyone?

I bought a WP7 Phone and I'm not dumb. I'm also going to buy WP8. It suits my lifestyle just fine. [This is coming from a long time iPhone owner and owner of a N7].

I bought a WP7 Phone and I'm not dumb. I'm also going to buy WP8. It suits my lifestyle just fine. [This is coming from a long time iPhone owner and owner of a N7]. "

Me, too. Can't wait to buy the 920. Red, as Thom said.

If you are talking about drivers then no, you can't write a driver for Win2k that works on Win8 x64.

And it's also drivers what break with the unstable internal kernel ABI in Linux, because the external API is actually quite stable. Any other software besides kernel drivers will run on any kernel version you throw it at.

I'm not really sure about a stable internal ABI being the holy grail people claim it would be, anyway. Sure, it might have made it easier for some devs to release binary drivers, but it would also mean maintaining old cruft in a kernel that's intended to be developed fast (how many kernel releases have we had already?).

And then, WP phones not being supported on Linux have nothing to do with inestable ABIs anyway, you don't really need a kernel driver to copy stuff to an external device.

Edited 2012-09-07 16:31 UTC

Nope you can just write FOUR, count 'em four drivers, and have every. single. version. of Windows currently supported covered for the LIFE of the OS. watch...2K/XP 32, XP X64, WinVista/7/8 32, WinVista/7/8 X64. That's it, stick a fork you are done. That gives you every single version of Windows from 2000-2020 with just FOUR drivers.

But this is why corps simply aren't gonna support you, they can write for OSX and get 5 years minimum, write for Windows and get 10+, or write for Linux and have the thing break in less than a year when some dev gets an itch...which do YOU think is more cost effective? Pulling an Nvidia and having to hire a team to do nothing but fix broken drivers, or write once and use for years?

And again don't give us the "Just give us the code!" because that is as much BS as saying "Give us your A&P textbook and we'll do our own open heart surgery!" because again, look at AMD. The devs have had the specs for 3 years now, drivers aren't even as good as Windows drivers from 3 years ago. Writing low level system drivers is HARD, extremely hard, and frankly 90%+ of the coders out there simply aren't qualified to do it and those that are qualified have their dance cards full at work so ain't volunteering.

I agree about the increased difficulty of writting (or rather maintaining) kernel drivers with a unestable internal kernel ABI, that point is pretty much obvious, but that still has nothing to do with WP not working on Linux.

Why is it that everyone who's complaining about the ABI has no fucking clue what it's for? You don't need kernel support for a protocol to talk to a USB device. Make it a library. Write once, etc.

So much vitriol just for stating your own incompetence.

Or just normal wool (or smth) gloves with a small hole at the tip of one finger, or two...

(if it's so cold that something like this would be a problem, you'd better be wearing Arctic mittens on top, anyway)

http://www.osnews.com/submit

It's a bit anti-Apple, otherwise I would have done it for you. :-p

But it's really simple. Fill in the title, copy/paste the url, enter 'laru', preview, submit.

I have one in my hand right now And I absolutely adore it. Complies with all the standards too, nearly everyone has a cable that fits it, connect it to any OS and it shows up as a mass storage device. All the updates are wireless, supports all the standard Bluetooth protocols, and doesn't need any fancy software on the PC side. Just as well, because Nokia didn't really release any... But being able to pair it with my Linux laptop and instantly have 3G broadband available with no messing about is a joy!

I don't know what I'll replace it with in a couple of years. Windows 8 looks nice and WP7 is good, but it doesn't make me happy the way Meego does.

Investors do, too, judging from Nokia's stock dive yesterday.

Microsoft's stock drops after every Windows release. However, I'm sure you re much more informed that the rest of us, Mr. Stock Analyst.

Look, I'm really sorry to be the bearer of news you hate to hear, but I'm simply commenting on the news. You needn't believe me. Read the reports for yourself. Here's the top 3 in my Google News search for Nokia, to get you started.

http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2012/09/05/nokia-stock-dive...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/nokia-shares-cont...

Nokia Cut To Sell From Hold By S&P Equity Research, http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20120906-706758.html

Stocks fluctuate for many reasons, which is the point behind my stock analyst remark. You're just as wrong jumping to conclusions when a stock drops, as those who jump to conclusions when it rises (and it did rise about 60% prior)

Also, I wouldn't buy into what ratings agencies say much. After all, they rated subprime mortgages and CDOs as AAA during the run up to the Financial Collapse. A bunch of crooks.

Nokia stocks are the best way to get rich quickly nowadays

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but NOK was up 3.36% today. What does that tell you? Hint: Markets fluctuate, don't put a lot of weight behind short-term movements.

Yeah, that poor, boring, AWARD WINNING design(I'm talking both the OS and the Hardware).

And please, half the fucking widgets in Android are either hideous, don't scale, and useless. The other half randomly stop updating.

The Live Tile paradigm is much richer. Especially with the improvements in Windows Phone 8.

Last time I check, it was N9 that got the design award for SW/HW combination. And it bate L800 in the same competition. But maybe we're talking about different competitions (I talk about the one in London).

I was speaking about Microsoft winning a design award for the OS and Nokia winning a design award for the Lumia 900. So we likely are talking about different awards.

The N9 is gorgeous though, so it makes sense.

Everyone seems to have some kind of award on his shelves these days, Google also won a design award recently for Android's UI.

Edit: dupe

Edited 2012-09-07 06:28 UTC

Yeah, just what we need: fewer choices in the market, higher prices, lower quality. Rah, rah, rah. Feel better? Idiotic comment.

I would be right if MS didn't have killing any competitors (with any means, legal or not) in its DNA.
I want to emphasize once again: killing not competing (I admit that Apple isn't any better recently).
They are not about choice for the consumer but removing that through network effects that are totally outside of consumer control. Ok, XBOX is another story, a sign or "new" MS, but answer me is XBOX a sustainable business for them? Aren't they still making most revenue from their monopolies?

I'm all for competition but be it RIM, WebOs, Japanese super duper mistery OS, but pleeeaase not MS.

WANT.

Paging, dsmogor. The 1990s are calling you. Seriously, dude, it's a new world. Microsoft isn't squaring off against a few poorly coordinated, inept players anymore. Google, Apple, Etc are all very well-financed and dominant in their markets. Any fears that you have are utterly muted by current reality. Microsoft will be *lucky* to gain even relevant market share in search, mobile, tablets. And given that, anything which makes the dominant players continue to compete, produce better products, and lower prices is good for everyone. Rooting for monopolies is what you're doing. Bad, bad idea. Apple and Google are the new Microsofts -- and in some ways, they are a lot worse.

I think you're calling from the (unspecified) future.
Last time I checked I still had to use Windows on my home PC for one reason or another even though my core activities (development for that matter) aren't even remotely Windows related.
While it looks that in consumer computing they may face being sidelined (and that's good for the consumer), there are sizeable chunks they still hold an iron grip on. And make no mistake, the ecosystem talk is a pretext to lock their desktop and mobile plaforms to each other like never before.

I have a Lumia 900. You're saying I can't customize ANYTHING at ANYTIME? It's "Always the same"?

Wrong.

You never had a WP.

Like that awesome TouchWiz customization, man, I sure do miss that in WP.

SINCERELY,
Nobody.

Believe it or not, some people like a well-built phone. Not everyone's usage is the same - some people are hard on phones and end up killing a cheap phone after less than a year. I still have my Nokia E52 which served me very well for nearly 3 years, and it's still working perfectly, still getting a week out of the battery. That's a good thing for many people!

It is pretty heavy as phones go, but given the bigger battery than most current phones and the increased screen size over the N9 it's probably not a bad trade-off.

Plastic phones last longer than glass ones. I prefer scratches to a broken screen.
And plastic just feel worse, galaxy s phones seem like the battery cover is going to be ruined after a few days, but it's the mega tough gorilla glass on the front that can't stand hitting the concrete floor.

Well, depends on the handset. I've recently replaced the screen in a HTC Desire, which has a plastic touch screen. The plastic was undamaged, but the LCD was smashed. So, plastic or glass, if it's gonna break it's gonna break...

....aaaand this is why we have so much electronic waste polluting the environment.

This is a real pureview phone. It just doesn't have the 41MP camera sensor. Choosing the 8MP sensor instead keeps the phone slimmer.

Have you seen the 8MP picture examples from the 808 PureView. Amazing!

I expect the 920 to be no different.

You can't fool the physics. Wider and longer aperture are nice but that will not make up for larger sensor.
I expect lumia photos to have an edge in low light portraits noise wise (compared to stock 8mp) but in the details department there's no comparison to 808 (and I guess even N8).
In mobile videos OIS is a very nice addition though. Nokia is still ahead of competition but it's far cry from the breakthrough 808 was.

The 808 is still in a league of its own, but at the Nokia event they snapped some pictures right in front of us and the results were absolutely stunning.

I'd say a leapfrog over anything but the 808 (never used an N8 so can't comment)

If so I cannot understand why in the world they made themselves into the fake sample movie and photos blunder.
Even Google managed to make mediocre GN camera look awesome using *real* material.
What were they thinking? That bloggers are idiots? I'm afraid not the bloggers.

Do you mean the word itself? I thought it sounds enough like 'Luminous' to invoke a positive image.

Or, do you mean as a product name? In that case, you're right...

I mean as a product name. If Nokia is copying the success of smartphones from Apple and android manufacturer (slab, no keyboard, few buttons) then create a name that is universal ( I(nternet) Phone) or awesome (galaxy, nexus, droid).

The sub name (version) is less important in those phones since a consumer knows how to express they want the latest "droid", or latest "iphone".

I have heard that the "i" in "iPhone" stands for internet before, but I really doubt that was the original intention. To me, iPhone is the obvious name for a phone version of the iPod, and the "i" in iPod certainly doesn't stand for internet...

The guy with the other phone clearly didn't know how to use it to make photos . First he didn't turned on AF guidance using the led, second, he didn't use low light profile.

The challenge wasn't even properly arranged. Having a small window to dark room allows one to rest his/hers hands on the lower edge, thus nullifying the whole OIS advantage. It was just asking for somebody with a clue to embarrass them.

Edited 2012-09-07 07:00 UTC

The phone has 32gb of internal storage, plus 7gb of Sky drive (25gb in my case because I was grandfathered in)

Plus you can also stream mixes of music for free from Nokia Music, or get all you can eat subscription music from Zune Pass and stream selectively there.

Contacts, Calendars, Emails, Photos, Music, Videos, Text, Apps, and probably more already lives in the cloud, so for me an SD card is useless.

I'm glad they have an appreciation for the seamless poly carbonate design and refused to compromise on it.

Oh marketing; "seamless poly carbonate design" sounds so much better than "plastic cover."

The 920 is unibody polycarbonate. Solid plastic with the same color all the way through, meaning if it scratches you can hardly tell. Its a much higher grade material.

It feels extremely good in hand, and decidedly unplasticky.

This isn't your Galaxy S III plastic that Samsung loves so much, this is premium stuff with a premium feel.

There are videos of the Lumia devices being used as hammers, or withstanding huge falls.

A piece of plastic of one color you say??? What kind of science fiction year 3000 bullsh*t is that?

Given how it is a product that has not been released yet... I imagine that plastic must feel really good; light as air and strong as reinforced concrete.

In any case, I'm glad to see Nokia/Microsoft finally learning a thing or two from Apple's astroturfing manual. Hopefully these are the devices that finally put Nokia back in a good position, they really need it.

Are you inebriated? The polycarbonate is also present on the released Lumia 800, 900, and on the Nokia N9. ANY owner or these devices will tell you its Cyan, or Black, or Red all the way through.

And I, unlike you, actually CAN comment on the Lumia 920s feel because I actually held one at last nights Nokia NYC event I attended. Feels identical to my Lumia.

I don't know if you're just being stupid or, well, no, that's it, there's no alternative, you're just being stupid.

Edited 2012-09-06 20:56 UTC

LOL, I assume either your humor/sarcasm is broken or perhaps the whole thing about astroturfing hit too close for comfort, didn't it?


Anyhow, arguments to authority on the internet are silly. I too was at the New York event, err I mean I read internet tech blogs and I saw the pics... (relax, don't get your panties all in a twist!) The phone looks beautiful and it is clearly different from android/apple offerings, monochromatic plastic and all.

Edited 2012-09-06 22:50 UTC

Its not an argument to authority, its common sense. If you've never held one, or one comparable (Lumia 800/900 or N9), how can you even begin to comment on how it feels in hand?

I actually know a lot of people who are more than happy with their Lumias. Granted, these people are not geeks; they're Average Janes and are not looking for the same things in phones as we are.

101 (stupid, pointless, or otherwise useless) reasons that (a fairly limited amount of very specific) people hate Windows Phone. Gotcha

Wrong. There are more than 121 reasons (Apparently you didn't read the list or the post at all).

Are you completely sure that people don't need features like...



It doesn't matter if you're a geek or not. I think that these things are damn essential for a phone. Every current Symbian device has these things. Meego/Harmattan does these things too. Damn, even the cheapest 10€ Chinese dumb phones have these features. So why Windows Phone devices cannot have them?

By the way, my favourite "feature" in Windows Phone is that if you're talking to a phone and you receive a SMS then the WP device will make you deaf.

Not only are a shit load of the items on that list addressed by Windows Phone 8, but some are even addressed by Nokia themselves as OEM apps.

The list is stupid though. Anyone could come up with a million reasons to hate a platform. Doesn't make them good reasons.

It's a valid list of things missing from Windows Phone. Look, Nokia did far better job themselves with N9 hardware and software than what they've done with Lumias built around Microsoft's Windows Phone.

To me it sounds like you're saying that everything is fine, and that OEM & 3rd party applications will complete the missing core functionality, and that Windows Phone 8, Windows Phone 9, Windows Phone 10, etc. is sure to address any core flaw the platform has? (facepalm)

If the situation was like you say, then why Samsung sold like more than 20 million GS3s just in 3 months. Nokia has only managed to ship 7 million Lumia devices combined in since they started selling them.

http://www.theverge.com/2012/7/19/3169153/nokia-lumia-sales-4-milli...

Why Nokia isn't selling Lumia devices like hot cakes? Why Nokia's N9 sold better than any Lumia device despite Nokia restricted seriously its sales? The truth is that Windows Phone doesn't cut it out and Nokia will go down with the Windows Phone with boots on. I'm going to be very happy to see that happen.

You don't know exactly what issues Windows Phone 8 will fix and what it won't since it's not out yet. Claiming that "it will shit load of things Windows Phone 8 will address" is BS until proven otherwise. So far there are only few things we know for certain that are fixed in Windows Phone 8. Some of which I already mentioned in my other post.

The way you put out that "anyone can come up with a million reasons to hate a platform" sounds like in your opinion there are no good reasons to avoid Windows Phone. I'm like offering my opinions here and opinions of others and I'm at least trying to base off these things on facts, and you're like not even trying to pick these things up for a conversation. Personally, I'm going to interpret that as a fanboyism.

And to balance things out a little bit. I like the Windows Phone UI. It's pretty. (But it's complex to dive into [doesn't mean it's difficult to use], and has serious usability flaws.)

Its a list. Just not necessarily a good one. I could come up with genuine consumer facing limitations that they'd actually be annoyed with. Not niche kitchen sink features that serve little purpose other than to be ticked off of some imaginary sheet.

That's not what I said at all, which is interesting, because you accused me of not being able to read.



The lack of Windows Phone sales as a whole is a channel problem, not a core OS issue. There is a lot of friction between Microsoft, OEMs, and Carriers. Also RSPs are not educated or incentivized enough.

Consumers do not buy things. Consumers are sold things. The retail channel matters in a big way for mobile phones. Especially in the US.



False. This actually turned out to be a huge lie. A lie convenient for you, but I hope you stop repeating it.



Actually, a leaked SDK is out with a full emulator, so yeah, actually, I do have a pretty good idea of what will be in WP8. Maybe if you spent less time regurgitating the N9 outsold Lumia FUD you'd be aware of the fact.



This entire diatribe was stupid. Next comment leave crap like this out please. I spend the time reading your posts, don't insult my intelligence by filling them with fluff.

Edited 2012-09-07 06:19 UTC

Is there a source that shows that the Lumia has sold better than the N9? I hadn't heard that.

So your line of reasoning (and let me see if I follow) is that "N9 has outsold Lumia because you can't prove it hasn't" ?

Unreal.

*Ahem* I wrote "To me it sounds like". I didn't wrote "So you're saying"...



It's not a sales chain / sales channel problem. You're retelling me now what Stephen Elop told people. And that's just another one of his lies in my opinion.

Nokia has the largest sales chain in the world. Or at least they used to have. But they still have remarkably strong retail sales chain as a World's current #2 and previous #1 phone seller.

I've made a point before in this thread that there are problems within core Windows Phone why people don't want to have it. There's an easy way to consider about the issue.

Since Nokia's sales chain really is the strongest or at least one of the strongest in the whole world. If a product doesn't sell like hot cakes through it, it effectively means that nobody wants to have it.

You're seriously underestimating intelligence of consumers. While what you say, can be seen participially true, however, it's not the complete picture. What supports your argument is that Lumias as a whole were indeed sold seven million units. But when we compare it to the numbers of earlier Nokia devices, which sold millions of units alone... (sigh)

No matter how bad Symbian usability was it performed well in all areas it was made for, and it did everything people wanted from it. For example N8 sold four million units when in a same time frame Lumia 800 sold less than a million.

My point is that people buy things based on what they need. And they do not need Windows Phone devices since those devices don't fill the needs of the people. It's an core OS issue. Even now when Nokia collected wide range of good words about their Lumia 820 and 920 hardware design. Not so much about as a single good word from their decision to use Microsoft's software. In fact mostly it was just about wordings like "Big question mark seems to be the Windows Phone 8", at least in Finnish media.

Nokia's prediction of 37 million sold Lumia devices by 2012 was pure insanity. That is something what they could have expected to have if next generation of Symbian devices were to be launched instead. None of the existing Symbian owners were able to move to Windows Phone devices of Nokia since Windows Phone lacks seriously in functionality and doesn't perform even some of the basic stuff iOS, Android and Symbian do.

Besides the funny small fact here is that Symbian shipments apparently where in a notable rise before Nokia announced their move to Windows Phone in February 2011. After said Q1 2011, Symbian shipments took a dive.

http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/news/item/14122_Nokia_Q4_2011-in_the...

My opinion is that if Elop had not announced Nokia's move to Windows Phone, they would still have #1 smartphone platform in the world. This "Elop effect" is a good way to explain what happens when CEO of the world's largest phone manufacturer first causes "Ratner effect" by saying that their "platform is burning" (which it wasn't), and then causes "Osborne Effect" by announcing a year ahead move to Windows Phone when they don't have a product to sell to people.

And then Microsoft causes "Osborne Effect" again by announcing Windows Phone 8 to be released later at the same year when Nokia finally got their flagships out of the house. And that those flagship models cannot be by decision of a Microsoft to be upgraded to the Windows Phone 8.

Elop has failed as a CEO, mission critical task he was given, in a worst way possible in my opinion. And choosing incapable smartphone platform is an epic mistake based on what we currently know.

I think that Nokia should have sticked to Symbian and continued its development towards more competitive platform, and should have lowered their price points for their products. All of their market share leaked to Android and Android is now #1 platform.



It's not a lie. Although that's what Stephen Elop would like you to believe about it. Bill here was helpful enough to talk about this issue.

http://communities-dominate.blogs.com/brands/2012/01/how-many-lumia...

And while it's true that N9 sales data has not been released. And we cannot know exactly how much was sold. It is very interesting that Nokia has refused to comment sales of N9 and declined to disclose the N9 sales data. If N9 sold poorly, it would have given them another reason to support their reasoning to move to Windows Phone. However if MeeGo/Harmattan sold exceedingly well, it would eat that reasoning behind the move to Windows Phone...

However, before the Windows Phone announcement, Nokia N9 was most sold phone in those areas it was released at. For example in Finland...

http://www.neowin.net/news/nokia-n9-outsells-all-other-phones-in-fi...




I knew about it since it was reported widely. However I think it's an incomplete SDK with a non-feature complete OS in an emulator. It's made for selected developers so that they can see some of the core features aimed for the developers. If it was complete and done, then logically they'd have already released the complete thing to everybody to enable rapid early development for the Windows Phone 8.

Microsoft certainly isn't going to reveal their full feature set for Windows Phone 8 until it's officially launched. And when it is, I'll be sure to pick it up from:

https://dev.windowsphone.com/en-us/featured/windows-phone-8-sdk

However since you seem more knowledgeable about this. Can you tell more about how Windows Phone 8 is going to issue the list of Windows Phone issues I've linked and talked about here? And other possible handy additions to the functionality of the Windows Phone 8 itself?

Edited 2012-09-09 17:24 UTC

I agree with a couple of those (no constant signal/battery indicator), but most of those are issues that actually effect very few people, are non-issues, or apply to other smartphones as well.

Having been using 7.5 for a while, I am very satisfied.

I do disagree with some of the items in that list. For example I don't believe that a communications device doesn't need to have an equaliser built-in with the default media player (as long as 3rd party application creators can make it happen later on).



Reason 80 is a bit too demanding (although for example iOS comes with built-in equalizer settings.) It's not a standard thing to come with every smarthphone OS. Although it can be widely found. And I understand that some things were software bugs within Lumia line itself like reason 105.

.
(It has been fixed to my knowledge by now.)

And things that Microsoft is going to address in Windows Phone 8. For example:



Microsoft also now promises to give at least 24 months of major upgrades before next major revision which to current models cannot upgrade. This starts with the WP8.

However the fact is that WP7 devices cannot be upgraded to 8, and it's just a huge betrayal. It's just not comprehensible since Nokia's Lumia 900 buyers like were betrayed the worst possible way. Early adopters/buyers are the people who advertise the product to others. No-WP8-upgrade had huge negative impact to Nokia's reputation and now they essentially have to rebuild that trust. And it's not just Nokia's issue.

I do think that there are serious issues with Windows Phone devices. For example reason:



Which have to be issued in Windows Phone 8, or it'll be an epic fail. For example this problem has been around since Zune media players. Why Microsoft hasn't fixed it already?

What about usability issues?



And just some weird stuff like:



The sync options are just obscure and difficult to comprehend, or just plain privacy violations. If I buy a phone, why should I be forced to make a pact with the software maker to give all my personal information to their servers outside my country's jurisdiction?

Makes no sense at all.

It's easy to buy iPhone or any Android device since they have all the stuff people actually need and want. Making the conscious decision to leave the Windows Phone out of the picture is even easier.

Not allowing WP7 phones to upgrade to WP8 is a "huge betrayal"? Get a grip. How many carriers upgrade your phone--ever? Most phones are obsolete the moment you buy them, and they're quickly orphaned by the carrier. Besides, most of the older devices do not meet the minimum specs for WP8 certification; hence, it doesn't even make sense to offer an upgrade that would actually downgrade your experience.

First of all, carriers never do upgrades for the phones, manufacturers do. And if you live in EU you can always install the upgrades manufacturers release for the devices. It's not restricted in anyway. Same with the most of the Asia to my knowledge. Only USA's carriers seem to be so dumb that they actually limit the upgrade possibilities.

And just to answer your question. Every single Symbian update released for my Symbian devices, I've gotten them all. I've also gotten all the updates for my N9. And I got tons of upgrades for my HTC Android devices including the 2.3.3 update for HTC Desire.

I recognize your point about that some earlier devices might not be able to run Windows Phone 8. However I made a point about how a phone that was released like few months ago, that was touted to be the biggest, the latest and the best, was abandoned before it ever managed to even hit the marketplace.

Besides to my understanding Lumia 800 and Lumia 900 are perfectly capable of running Windows Phone 8. And that they could run the latest software for Windows Phone 8.

Especially in my opinion people who bought Lumia 900 were tricked and that's not a way to treat a customers. You can just imagine what kind of image that gives out of the company doing that.

In German the larges carrier around (T-Mobile) stopped selling Lumia 900 as a result of this move. And in many places Lumia 900 found it self to be in a discount and to be sold with just 1€ euro.

T-Mobile did the right call. They didn't want to hear from their customers that they were tricked. They protected their own reputation. And who can blame them? Nokia and Microsoft tricked everyone who bought Lumia 900.

There isn't a sales chain problem within Windows Phone ecosystem. Nokia has/had the world's largest sales chain. If it doesn't sell, it effectively means that nobody wants to have it. The Problem is that nobody wants to buy Windows Phones due shit like this.

Edited 2012-09-09 14:28 UTC

Your response was complete bullshit. Here in the US, carriers control when update rollouts occur.

I know that. I wrote a line about it in my previous message to you. It's wrong that carriers [in USA] have that kind of control over what you buy. It shouldn't be like that. You're buying a service from them and that's all. Any device should work in any network without any artificial restrictions.

The way three largest communication companies in USA operate reminds me of a cartel. They're holding back their customers and restricting their legal rights with a various agreements (especially AT&T). It's bad for customers, it's bad for competing businesses, and it's definitely morally wrong.

Edited 2012-09-09 18:43 UTC

Actually our mobile dev team, think the WP7 phones are really good, they don't like the web browser soo much

You could have just ended with "I'm from Finland". It would have explained your hatred. Also the hatred of everyone else in here from the region.

Nokia's ties with the country is very well documented. Thanks very much for regurgitating your broken heart relationship.

It over guys... move on with your lives.

I do not hate Finland you idiot!

downvoting doesn't change anything! so you who is fallowing me around and downvoting get a life!

Edited 2012-09-07 18:11 UTC

Funny enough 49% of your votes are of the negative kind, but then again so are most of your comments.

Troll!!

Edited 2012-09-09 17:28 UTC

Just stating a fact, but I'm not sure you understand anything people write.

You are a troll and that's a fact! (i do not discuss with trolls)

Well, let's see what's in the article...

-Nokia
-Cellphone cameras
-Abusing a successful brand (PureView)
-Microsoft
-Cellphone OSs
-The need for competitors to iOS and Android
-Windows
-Windows Phone
-Windows Phone 8
-Industrial design
-Apple products
-Apple's declining design inspiration

That was quite a lot of troll bait if you ask me

Notice how PureView is already seem as "a successful brand", even while being launched only on one (1) Symbian (!) phone, in 2012.

N9 is pretty carrier influence free. That's the last real Linux handset that came out. Hopefully Jolla will release one next year.

Nexus models were never meant to last forever. Obsolescence was built into their DNA. After they were done attacking ships off the shoulder of Orion, they die. The candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long... :-p

That's an excellent point. People like to customize. I don't. To me, a phone -- even the best of them -- is a boring appliance. But never underestimate the number of idiots out there who want the latest crap shoveled at them by Apple, Google, etc. And further, who want to add some ridiculous bling cover with Hello Kittys or Ninjas or D&G or anime crap. Honestly, I realize that a lot of people are trapped on this consumer treadmill, but it is incredibly boring.

Uh, seriously, do you see people walking around with lanyards on their phones? I don't.

You obviously offended the Apple and Google fanboys who see rounded corners and grids of icons as the ultimate in industrial design. Meh. Talk about boring. WP runs circles around these clowns.

Personally I dispise the wp interface and Nokia's phones look like the phones attached to my little kids play kitchen... Butt ugly plastic toys.

Of course you despise it. You have bad taste. But don't feel too bad. Youve got plenty of company with other Andr01d and iPhone fanb0yz.

We'll see in 6 months when Nokia punts MS or tries another "revolutionary" phone release. Nokia tied itself to one big freak'n anchor that will pull it into the muddy abyss where it will have to sell it's patents to pay off the creditors (or MS).

It's only hope is for the MS board to see Balmer for the failure he is, and replace him with someone that actually has a clue. But I'm not optimistic.

Clueless. Whether or not you want to admit it, Windows Phone OS is the most innovative and design-rich platform on the market today. I don't care for Ballmer that much but his presence has little to nothing to do with the quality of WP. Blame him for not advancing distribution, if you will, but that's about it.

In the Windows world it indeed it, S4 is the best SOC on the market. The promise (yet unrealized) is WP8 allows ones from other producers (like A15) if better.


Most people excited are either tired with Android quirks (not perfectly smooth scrolling comes first) or wanting another run of locked to the bottom ecosystem.
The commercial is in fact addressed to already convinced.
A lot of them are WP developers wanting their cosy MS relationship to start bearing fruits in the mobile world. Or unsuccessful Android devs wanting to make name for themselves on rapidly growing new platform.

I believe this comes directly from MS brought conviction about the superiority of the Metro design.

This is the IPhone approach. If you're contend with it, just stick to it.
For me the glimpse mechanism (be it tiles, widgets, lock screen glimpses, summary screens) is just more inline with the way people use their phones, to stay up to date and quickly filter out irrelevant information.

Good idea, but I don't expect to have it implemented.


I believe it is what WP7 indeed is. The difference is only in the marketing. Nokia supposedly plans to continue with WP7 branch so that's not inconceivable you might be right. Besides their newest S40 offerings really blur feature / smartphone barrier.

Edited 2012-09-10 11:31 UTC