Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 6th Sep 2012 22:41 UTC, submitted by Hiev
X11, Window Managers "This is an introductory overview post for the Linux Graphics Stack, and how it currently all fits together. I initially wrote it for myself after having conversations with people like Owen Taylor, Ray Strode and Adam Jackson about this stack. I had to go back to them every month or so and learn the stuff from the ground up all over again, as I had forgotten every single piece. I asked them for a good high-level overview document so I could stop bothering them. They didn't know of any. I started this one. It has been reviewed by Adam Jackson and David Airlie, both of whom work on this exact stack." Introductory or no, still pretty detailed.
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by Hiev on Thu 6th Sep 2012 22:57 UTC
Hiev
Member since:
2005-09-27

After reading this, it made want Wayland even more.

Reply Score: 10

RE: ...
by renox on Fri 7th Sep 2012 11:20 UTC in reply to "..."
renox Member since:
2005-07-06

Of course, as this was written by a Wayland fan..
Wayland has some downsides too:
do you know what happens when you try to move a Window of a busy application in Wayland?

Reply Score: 3

v RE[2]: ...
by bassbeast on Fri 7th Sep 2012 14:30 UTC in reply to "RE: ..."
v RE[3]: ...
by renox on Fri 7th Sep 2012 15:02 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: ..."
RE[4]: ...
by feydun on Sat 8th Sep 2012 04:56 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: ..."
feydun Member since:
2012-02-27

I don't think it's trolling, just very negative, and the links are even more one-sided. The thing is, it's true that it's inconvenient not having a stable ABI, and anyway I like it that the FOSS community is full of criticism; there's no marketing hype-driven one true faith. It's more... scientific :-)

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: ...
by bassbeast on Sat 8th Sep 2012 11:42 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: ..."
bassbeast Member since:
2007-11-11

Did you even BOTHER to read? or does anything that disagrees with your "religion" automatically have you stick your fingers in your ears? Does a RH dev with 10 years exp on the job not count to you? if not then who does, only St iGNUcious?

Whether you like it or not reality is reality, and things aren't getting better. they are getting prettier, but not better. Don't take my word for it, take the Pepsi challenge. We'll take any normal release of Linux from the same month that Vista was RTMed, which I'll choose Vista because its supposed to be the worst MSFT OS since WinME, we'll install it and the Linux that was released the same month, again your choice, make sure all the drivers are working then upgrade both to current.

I'll be happy to tell you what will happen, because I've done this challenge several times. The Vista install will work perfectly, all the drivers and software functional even after 2 service packs and thousands of patches, while the Linux WILL BE BROKEN. Your DE will be flaky, if the GPU drivers work at all, your sound will be toast just as De Icaza said, and WiFi? Bwa ha ha ha, that won't have a snowball's chance in hell.

Now if you think such Mickey Mouse amateur hour "performance" is acceptable, well good for you, but the rest of us left that kind of crud behind with Win9X. I'm selling systems every single day and I need an OS that WORKS, not a hobbyist toy, and the sad part is thanks to the devs constant fiddling with the guts that is EXACTLY what you have, a toy. You are more likely to win the powerball than win my challenge friend, and that is just sad.

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: ...
by Gullible Jones on Sat 8th Sep 2012 16:37 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: ..."
Gullible Jones Member since:
2006-05-23

Hardware support is still a huge problem under Linux. OTOH I know of only one driver (nouveau) that breaks regularly, and it's experimental and contraindicated for general use. Based on my own experience, I don't think the Linux kernel is as unstable as you say.

OTOH, user space stuff breaks all the damn time, so I get where you're coming from. I frankly find Linux OSes more convenient than other OSes, but I can't deny that the desktop stack is a huge hackjob.

Reply Score: 0

RE[6]: ...
by Gullible Jones on Sat 8th Sep 2012 21:23 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: ..."
Gullible Jones Member since:
2006-05-23

Umm wow, is anyone even reading the above comment before modding it down?

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: ...
by bassbeast on Mon 10th Sep 2012 23:36 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: ..."
bassbeast Member since:
2007-11-11

Welcome to groupthink land friend! All must worship St iGNUcious and ANY descent, no matter how trivial or even in support of FOSS, is instantly attacked!

This is why I gave up on Linux, and why it isn't getting any better. prettier, not better. Its because I can post page after page, literally thousand of documents showing real problems being suffered by REAL users, and you will get nothing for your trouble but "La la la, ur a dirty M$ shill! La la la" and people wonder why the devs can get away with this Mickey Mouse amateur hour joke.

If you treat it as a religion, instead of an OS? Well you get the half baked mess you have now, because Torvalds and Co get treated like Gods and never EVER questioned. Watch, I'll prove it, here is a link with over 200! major problems with the guts, we are talking serious show stoppers..

http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.c...

This person has been listing show stopper for over THREE YEARS, and many on that list? Even older. Again do NOT take my word, do your own thinking. Pick a distro ANY distro and look at the bug tracker. Do we have 2 year old bugs? How about 3? do I hear 4? Ubuntu alone has over a dozen 6 year old bugs that are STILL present.

If you want to compete you have to actually...ya know COMPETE. You can't hand over a half baked buggy pile of mess and go "Tada! Don't like it fix it yourself!" not when I can walk across the street, pay a lousy $40 for Win 8 pro and actually have a system that is functional, or buy a MacBook and have full Unix goodness AND a system that works for years.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: ...
by Neolander on Sat 8th Sep 2012 08:42 UTC in reply to "RE: ..."
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

Of course, as this was written by a Wayland fan..
Wayland has some downsides too:
do you know what happens when you try to move a Window of a busy application in Wayland?

Since Wayland is designed with compositing window managers in mind, I would hazard a guess that a static, screenshot-like bitmap of the busy window is moved around, without needing to constantly refresh that bitmap as with older WM technology.

Edited 2012-09-08 08:44 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: ...
by renox on Sat 8th Sep 2012 13:53 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: ..."
renox Member since:
2005-07-06

"Of course, as this was written by a Wayland fan..
Wayland has some downsides too:
do you know what happens when you try to move a Window of a busy application in Wayland?

Since Wayland is designed with compositing window managers in mind, I would hazard a guess that a static, screenshot-like bitmap of the busy window is moved around, without needing to constantly refresh that bitmap as with older WM technology.
"

Wrong, remember that the decoration is handled by the application in the "normal" Wayland configuration.
So the application is handling the mouse events (then tell to Weston move my Window), so if the application is busy, moving a window may be laggy/"not smooth".

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: ...
by Gullible Jones on Sat 8th Sep 2012 21:29 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: ..."
Gullible Jones Member since:
2006-05-23

Just like in any version of Windows you mean? ;)

I think we can live with applications lagging when they hang. It's applications lagging when they're behaving normally that is of concern IMO.

As for Wayland, I still find the idea of mainstreaming a display system that only works on Linux... irksome. There are other UNIXes out there, some with advanced features that Linux doesn't have, and a much better record in terms of security and stability. Dropping support for them entirely is not what I consider a wise move.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: ...
by feydun on Sun 9th Sep 2012 03:32 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: ..."
feydun Member since:
2012-02-27

I think you mean that XP & earlier use a stacking window manager so not redrawing when the application hangs. Wayland of course is for compositing WMs. But anyway, like you say, who cares if a window is a bit jittery while you drag it around the screen. If it's the kind of thing you do a lot (like me) then you probably have other problems...

I totally agree about the Wayland framework leaving the BSDs out in the cold being a bug, not a feature.
However, I don't really understand why all the Wayland comment threads here because the original article is not wayland advocacy, it's just one of the relevant things covered within an overview of the graphics stack.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: ...
by Neolander on Sun 9th Sep 2012 07:44 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: ..."
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

+1 Informative

Reply Score: 1

Old blog post is old
by kragil on Fri 7th Sep 2012 00:08 UTC
kragil
Member since:
2006-01-04

The Linux Graphics Stack
Posted on June 16, 2012

But it is a great post. Wayland will rock.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Old blog post is old
by Lennie on Fri 7th Sep 2012 11:26 UTC in reply to "Old blog post is old"
Lennie Member since:
2007-09-22

I thought I've even seen it posted on OSNews before.

Not only that, I remember at the time specifically not reading an article because I thought it was this one.

I can't find it right now, though.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Old blog post is old
by feydun on Sat 8th Sep 2012 05:39 UTC in reply to "RE: Old blog post is old"
feydun Member since:
2012-02-27

Maybe it was linked accidentally instead of its more recent follow-up:

http://blog.mecheye.net/2012/08/lets-make-a-low-level-part-1-gettin...

It's an excellent series, I wish it existed last year when I was looking for an introductory overview.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by shmerl
by shmerl on Fri 7th Sep 2012 03:43 UTC
shmerl
Member since:
2010-06-08

Would be great to see some Wayland adoption in the mobile sphere. Looks like even Nvidia starts to be interested.

Reply Score: 3

UNIX?
by antik on Fri 7th Sep 2012 05:37 UTC
antik
Member since:
2006-05-19

You mean UNIX graphics stack? Or everything since today would be Linux only? One Nation, One State, One Leader?

Reply Score: 5

RE: UNIX?
by evert on Fri 7th Sep 2012 09:49 UTC in reply to "UNIX?"
evert Member since:
2005-07-06

I would love that. We need one champion to take on Windows and MacOS, not 10^6 different *nix-like operating systems and Linux flavours.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: UNIX?
by kwan_e on Fri 7th Sep 2012 11:19 UTC in reply to "RE: UNIX?"
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

I would love that. We need one champion to take on Windows and MacOS, not 10^6 different *nix-like operating systems and Linux flavours.


And that is why we end up with so many Linux distributions.

"Unlike all previous distributions, MY distribution will be the end-all."

Reply Score: 7

RE[2]: UNIX?
by tylerdurden on Sat 8th Sep 2012 00:51 UTC in reply to "RE: UNIX?"
tylerdurden Member since:
2009-03-17

Sometimes you need diversity, for those times Linux is a perfect fit. Sometimes you don't, for those occasions OSX or Windows may that better tool.

As usual: use the correct tool for the problem at hand, not the other way around. If you want Linux to be like OS or Windows, then get Windows or OSX.

Linux great strength is its open nature and customization/options, that is also its biggest weakness. There are products/projects that are enabled by Linux, which would be impossible using proprietary closed systems, and of course viceversa also applies.

Reply Score: 6

RE: UNIX?
by einr on Fri 7th Sep 2012 09:56 UTC in reply to "UNIX?"
einr Member since:
2012-02-15

No, they do not "mean" that, and if you had paid the article even a cursory glance, you would already know that. libdrm, Wayland and other things the article deals with are Linux specific.

Reply Score: 2

RE: UNIX?
by moondevil on Fri 7th Sep 2012 10:50 UTC in reply to "UNIX?"
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

Well, I imagine a kernel needs a few things more to have the graphics stack running.

Reply Score: 2

I am curiuos about Android's Stack
by tuaris on Fri 7th Sep 2012 19:38 UTC
tuaris
Member since:
2007-08-05

I am curious about how the Android graphics stack is designed. That is the way it needs to be done on the desktop.

Edited 2012-09-07 19:38 UTC

Reply Score: 2

1c3d0g Member since:
2005-07-06

Without Dalvik (or anything Java related), of course. ;-)

Reply Score: 2

moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

Except the only way to access it is via Dalvik VM ;)

Reply Score: 2

Gullible Jones Member since:
2006-05-23

Curiously, it appears to be implemented on top of an OpenGL library, not unlike Wayland (AFAICT):

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4579573/android-graphics-interna...

Maybe there's something to Wayland after all. I still wish it wasn't Linux-only though.

Reply Score: 2

oper Member since:
2012-08-30

That is the way it needs to be done on the desktop.

Some use cases are similar but others are very different, so nowadays the Android graphics stack would need a redesign.

Reply Score: 1