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That statement relays on conterminous Nokia presence in handset business.

As for now nothing indicate it.

Nokia is on BIG decline.

Ofc. Nokia will see some sale increase. WinP8 is new OS and will replace old and deprecated WinP7, in the market where people wait out to buy next big thing, rather than current but soon to be outdated one. Current sales are smaller, and immediate WinP8 sales will be bigger.

But Nokia can not go on and on forever without profitability. WinP7 was never profitable for Nokia (while every single other OS was, even dead on arival MeeGo). WinP8 shouldnt be either.

No you are wrong, nokias is actually still rising, Selling more phones than ever in asia (based on symbian). But i bet you mean the W7/W8 debacle then yes. Most of those smartphones are either returned or refunded.

I'd go for a Smaller Samsung ATIV S. Removable batteries, Super AMOLED and MicroSD slot are important features.

I don't like the iPodish look of the Lumias and HTCs.

What do you mean? My pictures, videos, documents, calendars, contacts, and notes are accessible from any device with a web browser thanks to the cloud.

My apps are synced across devices, and I can browse and install apps from any OS using just my browser. I don't understand where there is a lack of reach?

And yeah, I'm sure your developed behind closed doors, with closed binary drivers, and non standard Java bytecode is the pinnacle of open.

Please.

You suggest a browser as a good alternative to something I should be able to see from my file manager of choice? God knows I want to be tethered to the net just to get at something usually sitting in my pocket. Right...

Cloud services are not an acceptable solution for me, or for many others. If you can't see why a cloud-only solution is a hindrance, I guess that's where our conversation has to end, at least on that topic. Different strokes for different folks, and all that.

And for the record, I'm not granting Google some magical title of "completely open". I'm just picking the lesser of two evils because they still allow some semblance of user control over their own freaking devices.

Personally, I don't find ANY current smartphone OS acceptable in regards to openness.

My point is that there are varying degrees of openness out there. I don't think Android is anything near a poster child for it. Things are open in different ways.

Besides, I don't think its unreasonable to expect someone to have an internet connection.

Of course I usually have an internet connection, and it's reasonable to assume that most people with a smartphone do as well.

However, availability of a connection is definitely *not* what is keeping me from relying on cloud services.

You're right, Android is not the poster child for openness, and there absolutely are varying degrees of openness. That being said, in what ways exactly is WP open or even kind of in the ballpark of open?

edit: I should probably add that I really don't intend to debate this too much, at least not here. It's not exactly on-topic. Was really just responding to Thom's brief visit to "WP vs. Android"-land. I really don't have much to say about HTC WP8 devices. I'm sure they'll be just fine and dandy for anybody interested in what WP8 offers.

Edited 2012-09-19 19:09 UTC

Of course, I'll recognize our fundamental disagreement. I was just providing a different way to look at it.

Cheers.

Cloud services are not open in any way, except 'open for business'. They're all about lock-in. They take your data, so that you must use their services. This is of course Google's business model as well, and Amazon's, and Apple's. Stop pretending that Microsoft is somehow better for doing exactly like everyone else (but with no alternative).

Funny, I can export data from my cloud service just fine. Only in your invented reality is anything that you say true.

Does your comment come with a tinfoil hat?

Seriously. Up is down and down is up on OSNews.

Right. Only in my invented reality is it true that Microsoft isn't better for doing exactly like everyone else.

You are free to export your data, as I've done. You can't just ignore the fact that features exist because it doesn't fit your narrative.

Nelson,

"What do you mean? My pictures, videos, documents, calendars, contacts, and notes are accessible from any device with a web browser thanks to the cloud. My apps are synced across devices, and I can browse and install apps from any OS using just my browser. I don't understand where there is a lack of reach?"


I did a double take when you said this. Not to cause a ruckus, but out of genuine interest why the sudden change of heart over the legitimacy of having web apps instead of native ones? Is my sarcasm detector broken?

http://www.osnews.com/thread?534990

Nelson: "[Javascript is] barely palatable on the web, do not push it into the app space where there are much higher expectations. People have come to expect the web to be a sub optimal experience."

http://www.osnews.com/thread?535005

Nelson: "...the argument is that JS+HTML is god awful choice for app development."

Nelson: "On the web, I'm cool with JS and HTML. Let the web be the web. But for Christ's sake, let apps be apps."


http://www.osnews.com/thread?535333

Nelson: "Also, my apps feel more native, perform better, and I achive comparable productivity with just slapping together an alien feeling HTML5 website and calling it a day by stuffing it into an app."

You're so ridiculous its almost clinical.

I specifically, continuously, and very explicitly limited the scope of those remarks to app development.

Accessing and exporting your website from the cloud does not fall under such criteria.

I understand, you're bitter I called you a bad developer, but its no excuse to jump off the proverbial deep end.

Edit: Again, your knee jerk nature and lack of temperament shows.

Web app is very ambiguous term, and again, is not at all what I spoke of in the other thread. I specifically called out taking HTML/JS, packing them up in a native code container, and selling it on an App Store as a native app. Prime enabling frameworks of this are Phone Gap.

Web apps on the web are fine. People expect them to walk and talk like the web.

Your comment above is intellectually dishonest and beneath you.

Edited 2012-09-19 20:14 UTC

Nelson,

WTF??

Why are you so pissed off at me?? I honestly don't know what I said to make you so upset, even in the last thread. I don't even know if your upset at me specifically, or just my opinion. My question was totally innocent. But I've done exactly what I didn't want to do, which is to cause a ruckus, so I'll just shut up. But in the future what do you expect me to do? Should I keep my thoughts to myself because this is how you'll react every time?

I'm fine with a discussion, but blatantly mischaracterizing my position for the Nth time, going so far as to source various quotes, starts to wear on me.

In fact, this would've been an opportune time to discuss the upsides of the web.

Nelson,

I don't think I've characterised your position, I was asking you to clarify it since there does *seem* to be a discrepancy. Like why you bashed all web developers for choosing to use JS/HTML to write web apps to reach the most people. Then in this thread you dismiss the ability to install one's own apps on a device on account of the wide availability of web apps. It wouldn't seem like the same person would make those seemingly opposing claims.

Anyways, unless an apology is forthcoming, I don't see any reason for me to stick around and continue to pollute osnews with this bickering of ours.

Again, for what possibly is the forth time, you misstate my position and who I bashed. I bashed a specific subset of people using a specific technology in a specific way. The fact is, you're intentionally misleading by broadening the scope of my remarks.

Maybe you're right, it is best you stop responding.

Define the cloud.
Noone has said what it means, but microsoft and apple is pursuing the cloud 2.0 now. Oracle had it right in my mind. Web2.0, cloud and more is just services and providers. Pointless naming shit.

The problem (well, *one* problem) is that smartphones are being positioned to kill the general purpose PC.

The big guys know this and are trying to vest as much control as they can this time around and get rid of pesky concepts like 'device ownership' and 'user control'. Think locked-down app stores and development models.

If we, as consumers, are willing to replace our computers with smartphones and tablets, we really need to start examining what we're giving up. When everybody's buying smartphones and tablets, the general purpose computer market will begin to dry up.

Personally, I'd like to make sure that the good parts of existing computer culture survive into the next evolution of computing.

So much of today's tech innovation was born in the humble home computer room. The barrier to market entry is already becoming more difficult for small players now that walled gardens becoming the de facto method of software distribution. Even on the desktop, Apple and MS are trying to push their app stores over traditional retail channels.

This is all really important stuff to think about, and it seems like most people just aren't interested in the long-term implications of today's trends. We're not just gaining convenience by subscribing to this new computing model. We're also giving up independent software development and retail. We're also signing up for more regular forced hardware upgrades. It's no secret that smartphone and tablet manufacturers aren't exactly chomping at the bit to provide indefinite software updates.

If smartphones and tablets are to supplant the good ol' general purpose computer, we need to stop thinking of them as simple consumer electronics and demand at least some of the accessibility and control we've relied on for the past 30-ish years.

Sorry for the mouthful.

I understand the sentiment but your outlook is myopic.

So far the iPhone has been more profitable for indy developers despite being less open. With side-loading comes piracy and sadly pirates have flocked to Android just as they do with pc gaming.

But more importantly the masses will decide the smartphone winners and losers and they don't care about side-loading.

I use my smartphone heavily and I'm not going to waste my time with an interface I feel is sub-par. The interface in WP7 is just hands down better. When Google decides to come up with more than an iPhone knock-off I'll give it another try.

It's not myopic at all.

It's just that to me, freedom trumps profit motive always.

Right and FSF fanboys have been saying that for years and Linux still hovers at 1%.

Nerd willpower is usually trumped by the masses. Sad but true.

I don't understand why people fixate so much on market share. As long as the community is large enough to sustain itself, that is surely enough. Perhaps not for mass market appeal, but then again, it's the strides towards mass market appeal that generally compromise my ideal user experience anyway. So, if staying at 1% ensures that development stays geared toward people that actually *care* about freedom and general geekiness, then it's a raving success in my book.