Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 6th Dec 2012 18:03 UTC, submitted by kragil
BeOS & Derivatives "Haiku, the open source re-creation of BeOS, threatens to become 'The Duke Nukem of operating systems', joked long-time contributor Ryan Leavengood. Actually, after eleven years of development, Haiku still falls four years short of Duke Nukem Forever's long delay, but few other projects have been so long in development. However, with the recent release of Alpha 4.1, Haiku is at last nearing general release." 2013 is going to be very exciting for Haiku.
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wait...
by satsujinka on Thu 6th Dec 2012 19:42 UTC
satsujinka
Member since:
2010-03-11

wasn't that the general consensus when the first alpha came out? that it was only going to be another year before release...

regardless, I hope it does get a proper release. if the alpha images didn't work so well, i'd be more excited but i've had haiku running for like a couple years now without too much issue...

Reply Score: 2

RE: wait...
by UltraZelda64 on Thu 6th Dec 2012 20:56 UTC in reply to "wait..."
UltraZelda64 Member since:
2006-12-05

Official release only one year after the first alpha for a relatively small community project? I don't know what the "general consensus" was back then, but I do know that I sure as hell never expected that. I had far more reasonable and down-to-earth expectations at the time, no bizarre pipe-dreams. Maybe 2-3 years if we were lucky.. and amusingly, that really doesn't seem to have been too far off. So, no surprise here, and as someone who has waited since probably around 1996 for Duke Nukem Forever, only to be eternally disappointed by the end result to the point of not even considering it a worthy successor to Duke Nukem 3D, I completely fail to see how the comparisons with Haiku make any sense whatsoever.

That said, I was quite amazed at the stability and functionality of the OS even in its early alpha days... but that didn't cloud my expectations. The speed that the guys have been getting stuff done has also been quite impressive over the last few years. They're getting there.

Edited 2012-12-06 20:59 UTC

Reply Score: 2

A few *important* inaccuracies...
by looncraz on Thu 6th Dec 2012 19:47 UTC
looncraz
Member since:
2005-07-24

This article has a couple of inaccuracies in regards to the usage of Haiku:

For example, minimizing or maximizing windows is controlled by the same titlebar button


I'm hoping he means zooming and un-zooming - Haiku doesn't maximize windows. Minimizing is HIDING the window - to the Deskbar's application entry. And, minimizing and zooming are accomplished differently...

The most important of these idiosyncrasies is the deskbar in the upper right corner. Like the launcher in Unity, the deskbar is an unmovable access point for the main menu, taskbar, the file manager Tracker, and system settings. Although unmovable and sometimes requiring users to drill down several layers, on the whole it is an efficient use of desktop space, although more text-based than many modern users are accustomed to seeing.


The Deskbar can be moved quite freely!! It also has more display positions and shapes than any other similar dock on any OS I've ever used...

Albeit, this is a case for discoverability... back in BeOS's day it was expected to look for the little grabber pattern and it stood out when your resolutions were in the 1024x768 range... Today, however, with everybody running 1920x1080 you can't even tell it is a grabber... it literally looks like a slightly different color (from a normal viewing distance).

I think a mouse-over effect will be helpful...

--The loon

(off to implement a mouse-over effect)

Reply Score: 8

zima Member since:
2005-07-06

I think a mouse-over effect will be helpful...
--The loon
(off to implement a mouse-over effect)

I wonder, how about implementing "show on the pointer if it still waits for 2nd click during double-click"? (to get an idea, run RISC OS: http://www.osnews.com/thread?509236 ...that pointer function is pretty much its only redeeming quality ;) - would be a shame if it didn't live on in some more viable OS; and I guess it can help with overall discoverability, it would certainly do so on the few occasions when I was training computer-illiterate people in the use of a GUI OS & mouse)

Though, now that I think about it, I don't remember if BeOS/Haiku even use double-clicking ;) (and no time ATM to check in a VM)

Reply Score: 2

Haiku v. Duke Nukem Forever
by Pro-Competition on Thu 6th Dec 2012 20:29 UTC
Pro-Competition
Member since:
2007-08-20

The main difference between Haiku and Duke Nukem Forever is that the former has given us code to run (and even contribute to!) all along, while the latter was nothing but screenshots and promises. It's not even close.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Haiku v. Duke Nukem Forever
by umccullough on Thu 6th Dec 2012 20:32 UTC in reply to "Haiku v. Duke Nukem Forever"
umccullough Member since:
2006-01-26

The main difference between Haiku and Duke Nukem Forever is that the former has given us code to run (and even contribute to!) all along, while the latter was nothing but screenshots and promises. It's not even close.


And how much of 3DRealms money was dumped on the latter before they finally had to sell the ship?

Reply Score: 3

The123king Member since:
2009-05-28

I know for a fact that if that money went to Haiku, we'd have more to show now than some over-hyped mediocre game.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Haiku v. Duke Nukem Forever
by Phucked on Fri 7th Dec 2012 05:30 UTC in reply to "Haiku v. Duke Nukem Forever"
Phucked Member since:
2008-09-24

The main difference between Haiku and Duke Nukem Forever is that the former has given us code to run (and even contribute to!) all along, while the latter was nothing but screenshots and promises. It's not even close.


Duke Nukem Forever was released last year bub.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Haiku v. Duke Nukem Forever
by Morgan on Fri 7th Dec 2012 15:38 UTC in reply to "RE: Haiku v. Duke Nukem Forever"
Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

I think you missed the point; it's not about the release date but about the openness of the release process.

I feel that comparing the two projects is a bit illogical anyway; one is a well documented, wide open hobby OS based on a niche OS that was way ahead of its time. The other was a great game in its original incarnation, but the half-assed attempt to make a proper sequel was a mysterious 15 year torture session for the fans.

Reply Score: 2

Haiku Kickstarter campaigns?
by FreeGamer on Thu 6th Dec 2012 22:59 UTC
FreeGamer
Member since:
2007-04-13

I'd love to see some crowd funding projects centred around Haiku.

I could imagine some kind of BeBox-like device for $100-$200 (so cheap hardware, Raspberry Pi with a HD and a case) or perhaps an official box set with manual for the R1 release.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Haiku Kickstarter campaigns?
by Bobthearch on Fri 7th Dec 2012 02:15 UTC in reply to "Haiku Kickstarter campaigns?"
Bobthearch Member since:
2006-01-27

I'd consider buying a modern computer custom-tailored to Haiku, especially if it had some interesting or unique feature like a row of blinking lights. ;)

Reply Score: 5

RE: Haiku Kickstarter campaigns?
by tidux on Fri 7th Dec 2012 06:17 UTC in reply to "Haiku Kickstarter campaigns?"
tidux Member since:
2011-08-13

Haiku already boots at least partway on the RasPi, so that's not out of the question.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Haiku Kickstarter campaigns?
by v_bobok on Fri 7th Dec 2012 07:46 UTC in reply to "Haiku Kickstarter campaigns?"
v_bobok Member since:
2008-08-01

I'm thinking more like Mac mini-type HaikuBox. Something like Zotac Zbox with compatible hardware and full-on multimedia capabilities.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Haiku Kickstarter campaigns?
by Kancept on Fri 7th Dec 2012 12:20 UTC in reply to "Haiku Kickstarter campaigns?"
Kancept Member since:
2006-01-09

We'd need Blinken lights, so up the cost $2 for all the green LEDs, and Orange HD activity light. Can't NOT have them. It's a requirement.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Haiku Kickstarter campaigns?
by helf on Fri 7th Dec 2012 16:55 UTC in reply to "RE: Haiku Kickstarter campaigns?"
helf Member since:
2005-07-06

Needs something Geekport-esque as well.

Reply Score: 2

henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

RasPi has that connector for the digital pins that looks like an IDE/Floppy connector though - so that could be "GeekPorted(tm)" out, surely?

Reply Score: 2

Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

Indeed, we could call it GeekPort I/O, or GPIO for short.

Wait...

Reply Score: 3

helf Member since:
2005-07-06

lol,I forgot about that.

/me isn't a huge hardware guy.

Reply Score: 2

bornagainenguin
Member since:
2005-08-07

Definitely not Haiku, if anything the ones to bear that dubious honor would have to be ReactOS IMHO... I mean geeze guys pick a release to standardize and build from there to completion before trying to play catchup to the latest versions of whatever.

I know the Haiku guys have gotten a lot of flack over their choice to hold fast to reimplementing BeOS R5 before commencing to update and modernize where needed, but after watching the result of the continually moving guideposts with ReactOS... Well I'm glad that Haiku had a concrete goal and roadmap to follow. Seems to have been helpful to them in the long run.

--bornagainpenguin

Reply Score: 8

v_bobok Member since:
2008-08-01

Personally I'd dropped GCC2 and legacy software compatibility layer, and focused on polishing Qt and Java ports integration. Older native software with available sources can be recompiled.

Reply Score: 3

moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

The problem is that most software was commercial...

Reply Score: 3

izomiac Member since:
2006-07-26

There's not a whole lot of point if you're just running Qt & Java applications. Linux already does that pretty well. Speed, simplicity, and integration are some of Haiku's main features, all of which are lost when using non-native software. (It's a necessary evil for now.)

IOW, Haiku will never be better at running Linux software than Linux, and becoming something akin to just another distribution isn't the goal.

Reply Score: 1

cb88 Member since:
2009-04-23

Well really the reason for QT and Java apps is to fill the few gaping holes... and to run Minecraft at some point in time once kallisti5 gets mesa hardware acceleration working ;)

The nice other features are bonuses in many ways I already like some applications for haiku better than any other. Caya for instance is just great... it still needs work but its just plain awesome combined with Stack & Tile windoing

Reply Score: 2

renox Member since:
2005-07-06

I know the Haiku guys have gotten a lot of flack over their choice to hold fast to reimplementing BeOS R5 before commencing to update and modernize where needed,

Uh really? It seems very wize to me!
I would criticize them over using an unknown kernel instead of using the FreeBSD kernel or Linux but not over this!
What is amusing is that the main reason for not using Linux (X) is being replaced by Wayland, the replacement will take a few years, but it's still much less time than having Haiku working "by default" on a PC (i.e not having to carefully select the part of a PC to make it run Haiku natively).

Reply Score: 2

looncraz Member since:
2005-07-24

Most FreeBSD drivers can be re-compiled for Haiku with minimal change.

Haiku has pretty awesome hardware support for a niche OS - and it is getting better continually.

The NewOS kernel was chosen because it required the least amount of work to gain BeOS binary compatibility because it was created by a Be engineer...

Reply Score: 2

jigzat Member since:
2008-10-30

Yeah plus they said it before, "we don't want to be another Linux distro", not using Linux although not practical is good for keeping BeOS-Haiku identity.

From my perspective I think having another free kernel around is a breathe of fresh air...man I'm tired of hearing about Linux, I wish GNU finally get HURD out of is alpha stage too.

Reply Score: 2

renox Member since:
2005-07-06

Yeah plus they said it before, "we don't want to be another Linux distro", not using Linux although not practical is good for keeping BeOS-Haiku identity.
And it is still a poor reason: Android is the living proof that you can use the Linux kernel without being considered as just another Linux distro.
Also there are Linux distributions which brings something really different: NixOS(functional package manager), GoboLinux(simpler FHS), Ubuntu(Unity) for example.

From my perspective I think having another free kernel around is a breathe of fresh air
If the kernel would bring a new concepts such as Genode "sandboxing" by default or HURD, then I would agree, but I don't think that this is the case for NewOS..

...man I'm tired of hearing about Linux,
That is a really poor reason against Linux, you hear about Linux because it is successful (except for the desktop).

Reply Score: 2

looncraz Member since:
2005-07-24

The Linux kernel is a monolithic kernel and doesn't fit well into the BeOS micro-kernel mold.

NewOS was a near-perfect fit.

Audio, networking, even screen-drawing are user-mode activities. The kernel just gets a basic environment setup and handles the earliest stages of identification.

The Linux kernel would have had to be heavily butchered and altered to the point of no longer being Linux for this to work.

That takes time and man-power, the NewOS kernel was almost already compatible as it was and there was no need for the kernel ABI to be wholly compatible with BeOS since Haiku was re-writing all of the servers and drivers as well.

I think Haiku made the right choice with NewOS!

--The loon

Reply Score: 2

Jack Burton Member since:
2005-07-06

The Linux kernel is a monolithic kernel and doesn't fit well into the BeOS micro-kernel mold.

NewOS was a near-perfect fit.

Audio, networking, even screen-drawing are user-mode activities. The kernel just gets a basic environment setup and handles the earliest stages of identification.


Actually networking lives in the kernel.

Reply Score: 1

duke nukem forever of OSes
by spikeb on Fri 7th Dec 2012 07:42 UTC
spikeb
Member since:
2006-01-18

HURD anyone?

Reply Score: 5

RE: duke nukem forever of OSes
by moondevil on Fri 7th Dec 2012 07:52 UTC in reply to "duke nukem forever of OSes"
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

Actually they have had a few advances.

I don't agree with bashing of Hurd, their main problem was and is, that Linux gets all the funding.

Even Minix is now getting EU funding.

Personally I look forward for the day there are more mainstream micro-kernel based OS besides QNX available.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: duke nukem forever of OSes
by cb88 on Sat 8th Dec 2012 18:26 UTC in reply to "RE: duke nukem forever of OSes"
cb88 Member since:
2009-04-23

QNX is actually performant though... HURD is not for really obvious reasons. People should read the maintainer blogs and comments of the people that acutally have to work on GNU software. I read about all of Rob Landley's posts (except when he waxes political >:D ) and from there jump of to many others on LWN etc... GNU software is barely maintainable and in most cases outright broken buy design and the politics dragged in by the FSF. More power to them but they should at least design good stuff.

Rob is working essentially on BSD/Linux which could be re-licensed as GPL if anyone cared and at the same time foster real commercial development input.

Reply Score: 2

RE: duke nukem forever of OSes
by Johann Chua on Fri 7th Dec 2012 08:08 UTC in reply to "duke nukem forever of OSes"
Johann Chua Member since:
2005-07-22

HURD is a kernel, not an OS.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: duke nukem forever of OSes
by Elv13 on Sat 8th Dec 2012 02:09 UTC in reply to "RE: duke nukem forever of OSes"
Elv13 Member since:
2006-06-12

Not really, it is a low level OS, running on top of a microkernel.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by frood
by frood on Fri 7th Dec 2012 09:29 UTC
frood
Member since:
2005-07-06

Hasn't the time gone quickly though? Feels like yesterday I was reading about OpenBeOS (http://www.osnews.com/story/663/OpenBeOS_Milestone_First_Test_Relea...). Replacing the core BeOS r5 components one by one before eventually abandoning it all in 2001 and adopting Debian after reading http://www.osnews.com/story/174/Debian_GNU_Linux_for_BeOS_Refugees.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Comment by frood
by zima on Fri 7th Dec 2012 10:17 UTC in reply to "Comment by frood"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Hasn't the time gone quickly though?

Also, consider how many fans didn't make it along the way, won't see the release of Haiku... I asked this a ~demographer once, WRT Duke Nukem Forever - and it turns out that close to 1% of young (teens and 20s when DNF came out) people die over the course of a decade.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by frood
by Morgan on Fri 7th Dec 2012 15:50 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by frood"
Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

What gets me about the DNF thing is that 3D Realms expected their core demographic, teens and early 20s, to have even heard of the original game. It's not like the Super Mario series from Nintendo, where every console release had multiple Mario-themed games, so each generation had their start with that series. Today's teens are introduced to gaming via Call of Duty and Fallout, not a DOS based game from 1996, so where is their frame of reference?

The Duke Nukem fanbase is in their 30s now, and most of us have moved on. Some of us still play games; my brother in law is an Xbox fanatic, and I still enjoy some casual gaming (mostly Minecraft). But really, we've all grown up and have family and work commitments, and obsessing over a game release just seems silly.

Some would say "but it's the same thing with BeOS/Haiku", but really it's not. Haiku is an operating system that will potentially help me get work done in a much more efficient and practical manner, and it might even be the catalyst to get me back into programming (not that I was ever very good at it). There is the nostalgic aspect too of course, but there is practicality behind it.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Comment by frood
by Soulbender on Sat 8th Dec 2012 03:38 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by frood"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Oh boy, DNF... ;)

What gets me about the DNF thing is that 3D Realms expected their core demographic, teens and early 20s, to have even heard of the original game


I think most of the target demographic had heard of DN, if for no other reason than DNF itself. Now, giving a shit about DN and DNF is something entirely different. I gave up giving a shit about DNF sometime in the early 2000's and I'm sure I'm not the only one so how could you expect today's gamers to care?

But really, we've all grown up and have family and work commitments, and obsessing over a game release just seems silly.


As it turns out, we did the right thing since DNF, for all appearances, is a downright awful and horrible game. Stupidly offensive is not the same as edgy, dear Gearbox.
Contrast this with DN: Manhattan Project. A pseudo-3d platformer released without much fanfare which is easy one of the best DN games ever.

None of this maps to Haiku at all. Haiku has a transparent process and has had working code for a long time.

Reply Score: 2

Beta
by znby on Fri 7th Dec 2012 11:17 UTC
znby
Member since:
2012-02-03

According to this article, the Beta should be out some time around... now.

http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/the-dawn-of-haiku-os

Reply Score: 1

The new Amiga.
by ParadoxUncreated on Sat 8th Dec 2012 11:11 UTC
ParadoxUncreated
Member since:
2009-12-05

One of the slogans from Be in it`s time, was, the new amiga. Indeed they were on a good path for a while, with multiple cpu`s. However today, the Intel E5 is "the new Amiga". And that I say as a very easily critiquing user.
What OS you run, seems to matter less these days.

Peace Be With You.

Reply Score: 1

RE: The new Amiga.
by henderson101 on Tue 11th Dec 2012 11:06 UTC in reply to "The new Amiga."
henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

Was that a slogan? I don't really remember where the notion came from. I think it was more a throw away comment at some point that snowballed. Did Be Inc really ever promote BeOS or the BeBox as the "new Amiga"?

Reply Score: 2

i would suggest
by FadeFx on Sun 9th Dec 2012 07:03 UTC
FadeFx
Member since:
2011-08-01

Reactos to be the Duke Nukem of operating systems...

Reply Score: 1

Imagine
by mattymoo on Mon 10th Dec 2012 00:01 UTC
mattymoo
Member since:
2011-12-29

Imagine if Haiku had the budget that Duke Nukem Forever had. With full-time employees working on it, it would have been out a long time ago. It is not really a fair comparison at all.

Reply Score: 1

It will take time
by tuaris on Mon 10th Dec 2012 23:10 UTC
tuaris
Member since:
2007-08-05

They are essentially designing and implementing a modern operating system from scratch. To build an OS that meets all the expectations of today from the ground up is not easy and will take several years. Especially for a group of unpaid developers doing it only during free time and out of good will.

I have patiently waited since I first heard it announced several years ago. I've tried the test images from time to time.

The OS in it's current form already blows away things like Linux in terms of usability, integration, performance, and ease of use. From boot up to shut down you get the impression that everything was developed to work seamlessly together.

I know this comment probably offends many Linux lovers, but truth is that Linux and the countless projects making up the "distro" can never become as elegant as BeOS/Haiku without a major re-thinking on religion, organization, ideas, design, and "the Unix way".

I hope to one day use this as my primary OS of choice for desktops, laptops, and (yes) as servers along side FreeBSD.

Reply Score: 2