Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 11th Dec 2012 23:09 UTC
Windows So, last night, Windows Phone 8 got its first update - specifically for the HTC 8X. In this day and age, where iOS is the gold standard and shows the industry how it ought to be done, and Android is the exact opposite, Windows Phone 7 was a bit of an in-between - every phone got every update, but the staggered rollout was slow and frustrating, often due to carrier meddling. How will Windows Phone 8 fare?
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ClockworkZombie
Member since:
2012-12-12

One of the reasons I switched to the iPhone from Nokia is the frustrating delay or outright refusal of the telcos to provide software updates.

I am in Australia and the carriers are the pits when it comes to firmware updates. When these updates can improve reception or battery life and so on they absolutely should be provided to the customer, with previous Nokias some updates were not released 2 years later. Then you have to trick the phone to install a generic english firmware.

Carriers are more interested in selling a new phone of course but when you are under contract and they do not provide updates during the life of the contract there is something very wrong.

I am not using this post to bash other people by saying the iPhone is superior, it is good for my needs. I was a Nokia fan and I hope one day I can use them again. My handset purchase does not have to be tied into the APP store ecosystem as I can use apps on an iPad.

If anyone is curious the other reasons I swapped was an inability to use calDAV on Symbian I was going to upgrade to a win phone but found it will not do it either. Hopefully it will be added to win phone 8 at some point and an SMS bug that meant your phone had to be factory reset every 2-3 months.

Reply Score: 3

moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

At least in Europe you get to buy unlocked mobiles almost everywhere, so it would had been just required to use PC Suite.

But as a former employee I also remember not all mobiles had firmware updates for very long, just two or three updates usually.

Reply Score: 3

Its too early
by Nelson on Wed 12th Dec 2012 03:02 UTC
Nelson
Member since:
2005-11-29

Its too early to tell if it is indeed that carriers are blocking updates, or that a broader update release is being introduced gradually. Microsoft traditionally trickles out updates for Windows Phone. Its too early to definitely blame carriers.

Also, I believe Microsoft is planning some kind of opt-in bleeding edge program where you're pushed the update regardless. They mentioned it this past summer, I'm curious what's become of that.

Reply Score: 4

v ok
by windowshasyou on Wed 12th Dec 2012 04:00 UTC
Nexus Line
by Bink on Wed 12th Dec 2012 06:53 UTC
Bink
Member since:
2006-02-19

I own an unlocked Nexus device and get my updates straight from Google with more frequent updates than IOS—and I recommend all Android users do the same. That said, I do find it quite humorous that a modern phone, like Windows Phone 8, is only now able to maintain a Wi-Fi connection while the phone is locked.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Nexus Line
by leos on Wed 12th Dec 2012 07:28 UTC in reply to "Nexus Line"
leos Member since:
2005-09-21

I own an unlocked Nexus device and get my updates straight from Google with more frequent updates than IOS—and I recommend all Android users do the same. That said, I do find it quite humorous that a modern phone, like Windows Phone 8, is only now able to maintain a Wi-Fi connection while the phone is locked.


Yep. If I ever buy an Android device it will be from Google. I've got exactly zero interest in any of the other handsets that mess around with the software and screw everyone on updates. Completely inexcusable.
Google needs to offer a high quality phone though. The nexus 4 seems good for the low end, but there is no high end option that supports LTE (and the nexus 4 seems to have some quality issues: http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=39936 )

Reply Score: 3

RE: Nexus Line
by Nelson on Wed 12th Dec 2012 08:02 UTC in reply to "Nexus Line"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

That's not always true. People have waited months, despite owning a Nexus device, to have the latest version of Android pushed down to them. The fairy tale, because that's what it really is, a fairytale, that Nexus devices get updates on day #1 is getting old.

To contrast, when Windows Phone 7.5 came out, it rolled out to every device, across every carrier, in every country. Without a hitch.

Very little apps are impacted by the WiFi fix, because very little apps run under lockscreen, since 7.5 it hasn't been recommended to run under Lock screen. Instead, you just support Fast App Switching and Fast App Resume and call it a day.

About the only apps that I can see having a meaningful impact by this are apps that 1) Transmit data in the background like an Audio Streaming app, or 2) Apps that would like a persistent transport connection to be maintained.

Neither are very common. This is a low impact change, and it's opt-in, so it's not even default behavior. Its more to appease some power users.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Nexus Line
by Thom_Holwerda on Wed 12th Dec 2012 08:43 UTC in reply to "RE: Nexus Line"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

To contrast, when Windows Phone 7.5 came out, it rolled out to every device, across every carrier, in every country. Without a hitch.


Speaking of fairtytales. You clearly weren't there during the rollout. It took months and months and months, with bugs and bricked devices. It wasn't until TWO WEEKS AGO that the Focus 2 on some carrier got it.

Two weeks ago.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Nexus Line
by Nelson on Wed 12th Dec 2012 09:09 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Nexus Line"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Wrong. Focus 2 came pre-loaded with Tango, a full release after Mango (7.5). It'd help if you knew what you were talking about.

http://www.samsung.com/us/mobile/cell-phones/SGH-I667UWAATT

The Focus 2 was not even out during the Mango roll out. The Focus 2 was released like four or five months after, during the Spring.

What the Focus 2 got late was a bunch of carrier and hardware specific firmware upgrades, and a small 7.5 Refresh update.

If the Focus 2 hadn't launched with Tango it wouldn't have had the 4G LTE stack that was added in the Spring update.

Edited 2012-12-12 09:15 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Nexus Line
by Thom_Holwerda on Wed 12th Dec 2012 09:15 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Nexus Line"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Wrong. Focus 2 came pre-loaded with Mango. It'd help if you knew what you were talking about.


I meant Tango.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Nexus Line
by Nelson on Wed 12th Dec 2012 09:18 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Nexus Line"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

It came pre-loaded with Tango. What it got rather late were firmware updates and a small post-Tango update (8773, some people call it Tango #2)

The problem was that the firmware update is at the discretion of the OEM, but it was requisite for Tango #2. At least, that's what was said.

There's a HUGE difference between missing out on Mango (a major OS update) and missing out on some firmware updates and the ability to attach multiple MMS to a message. That's really all the update was about.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Nexus Line
by darknexus on Wed 12th Dec 2012 08:44 UTC in reply to "RE: Nexus Line"
darknexus Member since:
2008-07-15

To contrast, when Windows Phone 7.5 came out, it rolled out to every device, across every carrier, in every country. Without a hitch.


Yes, and then, when Windows 8 came out (not even a year after Windows Phone 7.5) every single consumer up to that point got screwed out of any future updates to those handsets, ever. Great comparison there. Try a little harder next time, okay?

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Nexus Line
by Nelson on Wed 12th Dec 2012 09:10 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Nexus Line"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Except Windows Phone 7 handsets are getting an update in the form of Windows Phone 7.8.

So, what exactly were you saying again?

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Nexus Line
by Thom_Holwerda on Wed 12th Dec 2012 09:17 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Nexus Line"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Except Windows Phone 7 handsets are getting an update in the form of Windows Phone 7.8.

So, what exactly were you saying again?


Fcuk 7.8. It's a pointless update. It's like saying that silly feature pack for Gingerbread Samsung pushed out is the same as ICS.

Nobody knows when 7.8 is coming out, and on top of that, it adds virtually nothing to 7.5 except for smaller tiles. Big whoop. I know you have a thing for promoting Microsoft, but this is really unpromotable.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Nexus Line
by Nelson on Wed 12th Dec 2012 09:22 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Nexus Line"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29


Fcuk 7.8. It's a pointless update. It's like saying that silly feature pack for Gingerbread Samsung pushed out is the same as ICS.


That's your opinion, but the fact remains that it is incorrect to say that there are no post Tango updates for Windows Phone 7. It is simply not true.


Nobody knows when 7.8 is coming out, and on top of that, it adds virtually nothing to 7.5 except for smaller tiles. Big whoop. I know you have a thing for promoting Microsoft, but this is really unpromotable.


And APIs for Lock Screen access for apps, and APIs for controlling the new Start screen via apps.

Plus, if you own a Lumia, Nokia is adding a bunch of their own value-add to 7.8 . Other OEMs can do the same, if they have not, then that's unfortunate.

Besides, they are still selling Windows Phone 7 devices. The Lumia 510 went on sale, which comes with Windows Phone 7.8.

Leaked Nokia roadmaps show future updates to the WP7 in the pipeline.

The difference between WP8 and WP7, when it comes down to apps is almost nothing. Most apps maintain WP7 and WP8 versions, with near feature parity. The main reason to recompile for WP8 is to remove the letterboxing on 720p devices.

In fact, on WP8, WP7 apps merely run in a "Quirks mode". Its largely the same.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Nexus Line
by Thom_Holwerda on Wed 12th Dec 2012 09:27 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Nexus Line"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

All your excuses can be applied to Android as well. Virtually all applications are available for both Gingerbread and ICS+, with minimal changes.

Fact remains: Windows 7.x is dead in the water, even though it's still being sold. That's a fcuking disgrace, and the fact you are trying to right that wrong is telling, at best, and disingenuous, at worst.

Edited 2012-12-12 09:31 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Nexus Line
by Nelson on Wed 12th Dec 2012 16:03 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Nexus Line"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

All your excuses can be applied to Android as well. Virtually all applications are available for both Gingerbread and ICS+, with minimal changes.

Fact remains: Windows 7.x is dead in the water, even though it's still being sold. That's a fcuking disgrace, and the fact you are trying to right that wrong is telling, at best, and disingenuous, at worst.


So? That's good that all applications are available, though I dispute that notion to an extent. There are plenty of Android developers who develop for X,Y,Z devices only.

I think we have a fundamental disagreement about Windows Phone 7 being dead. WP8 is not going to hit the price points WP7 did any time soon. WP7 is going to keep being pushed into the low end, and WP8 will remain the mid-high end solution for Microsoft.

At least, that's my read of the situation. However, in your infinite wisdom (like saying that it took the Focus 2 over a year to get Mango), I'm sure you disagree.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Nexus Line
by pos3 on Wed 12th Dec 2012 13:20 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Nexus Line"
pos3 Member since:
2010-06-25

Are you so into MS that you cannot differentiate between 7.8 and 8?

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Nexus Line
by Nelson on Wed 12th Dec 2012 16:05 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Nexus Line"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Can you differentiate between them? Or point out concrete differences in their API subsets that would make maintaining two versions difficult?

Hint: I maintain a shared codebase between WP7, WP8, and Windows 8. All without a hitch, which is my entire point in that the fact that WP7 devices won't get WP8 has mitigating factors.

Of course, it's much easier to brush it off as me being a shill, as if what I did was much more than just correcting a few people on their facts.

I'm sorry that me telling people to actually speak truthfully is me shilling for MS.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Nexus Line
by modmans2ndcoming on Thu 13th Dec 2012 00:27 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Nexus Line"
modmans2ndcoming Member since:
2005-11-09

How is hat different for the Gingerbread users on Android?

Every android handset other than the Nexus pones have (until ICE handsets were released) hardly, if ever, gotten updates and if they did, they got one crappy update that never got a bug fix.....why do you think CyanogenMOD became so freaking popular?

Edited 2012-12-13 00:31 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Nexus Line
by Morgan on Wed 12th Dec 2012 11:41 UTC in reply to "RE: Nexus Line"
Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

The fairy tale, because that's what it really is, a fairytale, that Nexus devices get updates on day #1 is getting old.


Fairy tale, huh? From Wikipedia (and common knowledge to Nexus owners, of course), emphasis mine:

"On June 27, 2012 at the Google I/O conference, it was announced that the Nexus S would be one of the first devices to receive an upgrade to Android 4.1 Jelly Bean, along with the Motorola Xoom and Galaxy Nexus, began on July 26, 2012."

I finally gave up waiting for WP7.8 and went back to my Nexus S 4G. This is a phone that is well over a year old and yet received the Jelly Bean update soon after it was gold. My best friend's HTC One X, on the other hand, is still waiting several months later.

While my Nexus won't be getting 4.2 officially, my contract runs out right around the time the Galaxy Note 2 will likely drop in price. That device is already my chosen upgrade path so I'm set for a couple of years yet. And if I do want to get a taste of 4.2, there's always CyanogenMod. I'm also going to hang on to the phone to play around with Firefox OS builds.

As much as I enjoyed using Windows Phone, between the lack of updates and fixes for my old phone and Sprint's flippant attitude towards the platform, I had no choice but to leave it behind for the foreseeable future.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Nexus Line
by gan17 on Wed 12th Dec 2012 12:27 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Nexus Line"
gan17 Member since:
2008-06-03

"On June 27, 2012 at the Google I/O conference, it was announced that the Nexus S would be one of the first devices to receive an upgrade to Android 4.1 Jelly Bean, along with the Motorola Xoom and Galaxy Nexus, began on July 26, 2012."

Was there any small-print in that announcement for Galaxy Nexus owners? From what I've read, it took a long time for Verizon Galaxy Nexus owners in the US to get 4.1, and it's possible some folk haven't even got it yet. Same could be said for owners of the device in many countries. My unit wouldn't be up-to-date if I didn't manually flash the firmware back to Google's stock factory image. Not sure if this was the fault of Google, Samsung or the carriers of various nations, but it still stunk.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Nexus Line
by Morgan on Wed 12th Dec 2012 16:39 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Nexus Line"
Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

I'm looking at Verizon on that one, I have several coworkers on that carrier and they are treated like horse manure. I'll never have service with Verizon; I'll go without a phone first.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Nexus Line
by Nelson on Wed 12th Dec 2012 16:07 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Nexus Line"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

"The fairy tale, because that's what it really is, a fairytale, that Nexus devices get updates on day #1 is getting old.


Fairy tale, huh? From Wikipedia (and common knowledge to Nexus owners, of course), emphasis mine:
"

You can emphasize anything you want, it doesn't inherently make you right. Because you're not.

Some Nexus device owners on some carriers faced an extraordinarily long wait to get their update. Saying that Nexus devices in and of themselves are guaranteed #1 day tickets to the latest Android is disingenuous.

Even more annoying, is the notion that you seemed compelled to respond to my comment with one of your own, despite not having yourself done the proper research. Please, don't do that.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Nexus Line
by Morgan on Wed 12th Dec 2012 16:13 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Nexus Line"
Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

The problem with your position is that you lay the blame on Google, or on the Android platform itself, for the delay. Any delay on receiving updates is purely the fault of the carriers, and that will happen, and has happened, irrespective of the platform. It was even worse for BlackBerry owners several years ago; AT&T BB users were left in the cold most of the time when it came to BB OS updates, while Verizon and Sprint users got timely support.

It seems as if you are the one being disingenuous for not acknowledging that.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Nexus Line
by Thom_Holwerda on Wed 12th Dec 2012 16:22 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Nexus Line"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

It's called the fundamental attribution error. When WP7.8/8 updates are messy, it's due to situational circumstances - when Android updates are messy, it's due to Google.

In the meantime, those of us without any vested interest in any one platform know where the faults lie. For Android, carriers and OEMs. For WP, carriers. Google and Microsoft are not even part of the blame.

Edited 2012-12-12 16:22 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Nexus Line
by Nelson on Wed 12th Dec 2012 16:40 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Nexus Line"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

I just don't buy into the fact that the relatively pain free Windows Phone updates are anything in the same ballgame as the shitfuck that is the Android update situation.

Your cited example (the Focus 2) was TERRIBLE. Yet, because you said it, it magically equates Android and Windows Phone, despite it being 100% incorrect. That's bullshit I refuse to buy into.

Now, if you want to talk Windows Phone update issues, I'll talk about then, because there are plenty. But they are for different reasons, and of different degrees of pain for end users.

1) Pre-Mango the NoDo update roll out was terrible. It was however their first update, and since then the process has matured quite a bit.

2) The post-Tango firmware update messaging was a mess, Microsoft refused to comment on the existence of an update for weeks after the OEMs pushed it. By and large though, from the Spring to the Summer, a majority of people got the update.

The only phones that really had an issue, were those who were in development when Tango 2 launched, and launched with Tango 1 instead. ATT and OEMs dragged their foot on it, but I don't think MS particularly pushed hard on the issue either.

3) The messaging behind WP7/WP7.8 is a mess. By and large, this is one of their biggest screw ups. They really messed up by not giving enough information in a timely enough manner.

It remains to be seen how the WP 7.8 roll out will go. However, let's make a bet. Let's wait until January 2013, if the WP7.8 roll out is terrible, and not excellent like the Mango roll out, then I'll concede that the situation on both platforms (Android and WP) are the same.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Nexus Line
by Nelson on Wed 12th Dec 2012 16:33 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Nexus Line"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Because there is a refusal to acknowledge that the situations are not the same.

By and large, every Windows Phone 7 owner has been updated to the latest Windows Phone 7 release.

A majority of Windows Phone users run the latest version of their platform. That is a fact. A majority of WP7 users are on 8773. The same is NOT true for Android.

Obviously, there is something much more out of control going on here, and I find it tragic that you, post after post, refuse to notice, or even acknowledge a difference.

Sure, of course, there is carrier and OEM pigheadedness in the way, but the fault lies squarely with Google in that they have not effectively dealt with the situation.

I refuse to equate the two experiences, because while most Windows Phone users are on 8773, by comparison, almost no one is on Jellybean. A fact.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Nexus Line
by Morgan on Wed 12th Dec 2012 16:38 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Nexus Line"
Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

I'll give your position some merit when I see 7.8 on my HTC Arrive. Sorry, but it's Windows Phone users who are 100% left in the cold here, by Microsoft.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Nexus Line
by modmans2ndcoming on Thu 13th Dec 2012 00:36 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Nexus Line"
modmans2ndcoming Member since:
2005-11-09

7.8 is not released....Jelly Bean 4.1 and 4.2 have been released and have near zero penetration.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Nexus Line
by tylerdurden on Wed 12th Dec 2012 21:17 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Nexus Line"
tylerdurden Member since:
2009-03-17

You're conveniently limiting Windows Phone to the same release; 8. Yes, technically most Windows Phone users may be on that release, but that is because almost no one bought or is using the previous version. Not because Microsoft has a brilliant method to keep all his users up to date transparently.



The "upgrade" path for the Windows platform is rather torturous; Windows Mobile 6.5, to Windows Phone 7, and then to Windows Phone 8. 3 different incompatible revisions in less than 3 years. While going from a 15% market share, down to 3% in the same period of time. Given that correlation, it seems that Microsoft's update track record is a significant weakness, not strength.

Edited 2012-12-12 21:27 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: Nexus Line
by Nelson on Wed 12th Dec 2012 22:25 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Nexus Line"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

You're conveniently limiting Windows Phone to the same release; 8. Yes, technically most Windows Phone users may be on that release, but that is because almost no one bought or is using the previous version. Not because Microsoft has a brilliant method to keep all his users up to date transparently.


Windows Phone total install base was in the millions, I believe over ten million last I checked. However, I don't see how their update mechanisms have been proven not to scale, to the extent that you use it as an excuse to shrug off the fact that most Windows Phone users are on the latest version of the platform.


The "upgrade" path for the Windows platform is rather torturous; Windows Mobile 6.5, to Windows Phone 7, and then to Windows Phone 8. 3 different incompatible revisions in less than 3 years.


Windows Mobile is not Windows Phone. That's akin to saying that Samsung didn't provide an update path from their Omnia Windows Mobile lineup to their Galaxy S III. They are clearly different platforms.

Expecting Windows Mobile devices, complete with resistive screens and ancient ARM processors to run Windows Phone is ludicrous. Almost no Windows Mobile device, save for maybe the HD2, met the Windows Phone minimum specifications.

Windows Phone 7 users haven't been given a raw deal. They received NoDo, Mango, Tango 1, Tango 2, and 7.8

That's four updates in two years. One of them a major revision. This is not to mention the various value-add companies like Nokia have brought, and continue to bring to the platform.

In fact, that's likely comparable to any Nexus device out there right now.


While going from a 15% market share, down to 3% in the same period of time. Given that correlation, it seems that Microsoft's update track record is a significant weakness, not strength.


That is again, if you lump in Windows Mobile marketshare with Windows Phone marketshare. Windows Phone has gone from 0% to roughly 3% since 2010, and if reports are anything to go by, is selling quite well this quarter.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Nexus Line
by modmans2ndcoming on Thu 13th Dec 2012 00:38 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Nexus Line"
modmans2ndcoming Member since:
2005-11-09

Umm... 7 and 8 are developed in tandem right now.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Nexus Line
by pos3 on Wed 12th Dec 2012 13:24 UTC in reply to "RE: Nexus Line"
pos3 Member since:
2010-06-25

Got nexus 7 recently. Few reboots later running latest version within hours.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Nexus Line
by Nelson on Wed 12th Dec 2012 16:08 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Nexus Line"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

I know Android takes ages to start up, but a few reboots equals "hours"? Lol

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Nexus Line
by aliquis on Wed 12th Dec 2012 18:12 UTC in reply to "RE: Nexus Line"
aliquis Member since:
2005-07-23

Not sure if a joke or serious.

Reply Score: 2

reboots...
by gan17 on Wed 12th Dec 2012 12:29 UTC
gan17
Member since:
2008-06-03

Thom;

After the final reboot

Final? How many reboots did you have to do?

Reply Score: 4

Regular Joe Sixpack
by wigry on Wed 12th Dec 2012 16:49 UTC
wigry
Member since:
2008-10-09

While we IT-gurus are very interested to have the latest and the greatest OS in our phones, the average Joe Sixpack could not probably tell what kind of an OS the device is running (or it has an OS at all). Those are the people who would find the update very very scary or uncomfortable or extremely distracting and would complain for a carrier immediately. That is the thing that carriers are afraid of and thats why they might choose not to update the phones at all and for a general population of cellphone users that is very acceptable solution.

There should be still those enthusiast phones that get all the updates and other bells and whistles.

Reply Score: 3

troll
by aliquis on Wed 12th Dec 2012 18:08 UTC
aliquis
Member since:
2005-07-23

"where iOS is the gold standard and shows the industry how it ought to be done, and Android is the exact opposite"

Android got 70+% market share? ..

Don't you have a blog or something?

Reply Score: 1