Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 17th Dec 2012 11:24 UTC
Windows "Does Windows Phone need Google and its services to be successful? No. The fate of Windows Phone and its adoption in the marketplace does not rest in the hands of Google. Microsoft itself holds the key to Windows Phone becoming a successful platform, rapid evolution of its cloud services and integration with the rest of the MS eco system." Good editorial on Google killing AES support for consumers and how it affects Windows Phone, by WPCentral's Robert Brand.
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Google do not have problem with WP :P
by przemo_li on Mon 17th Dec 2012 11:48 UTC
przemo_li
Member since:
2010-06-01

Its WP that have problem.

Its too small to be called "3rd ecosystem". Do not know why so much hype over Google assessing WP properly. One would expect that after 2y of lies disproved by hard data (eg "3rd ecosystem") some will at least admit that WP is not major player in mobile.............

Edited 2012-12-17 11:49 UTC

Reply Score: 6

MOS6510 Member since:
2011-05-12

If WP isn't, then who is?

Symbian is dead and Blackberry is dying, even though they won't admit it.

There are a number of small players, but WP has Microsoft and Nokia going for it. Microsoft has a long breath and Nokia bet the company on it so they have to stick with it.

Reply Score: 2

Tractor Member since:
2006-08-18

Nokia has been "sacrificed" by Microsoft as cannon-fodder to help them sustain the lengthy period to WP8. Now, Nokia is almost dead, and no longer a relevant player (they have fallen to 10th position in SmartPhone makers !). WP8 is too little too late. A bad news for Microsoft, a killing one for Nokia.

But then, it's Nokia shareholders who pay the price for this Microsoft's strategy.

Reply Score: 5

tylerdurden Member since:
2009-03-17

By all accounts the Lumias are selling quite well, it may be a bit premature to count them out yet. However, Nokia had to really really lower the price to the point where their margins must be wafer thin. At least with AT&T they had to undercut the iPhone/GS III by $100, yet either of those phones are having no problem moving their inventories keeping their original margins.

Edited 2012-12-17 19:00 UTC

Reply Score: 3

Ford Prefect Member since:
2006-01-16

Well, they fail. But that said, Apple has a huge margin on their phones. So if you earn $100 less for a comparable phone, you still make a mere mortal's profit I guess.

Reply Score: 2

tomz Member since:
2010-05-06

Nokia is dying. Go read any of the posts on Communities Dominate Brands.

There are only a few wp8s, and they aren't compelling. IPhone already has the sweet spot, and android has the diversity - qwerty slideouts, phablets, pen/stylus versions, etc.

Microsoft has an archipelago, not an ecosystem. Xbox is different hardware from wp8 from w8. There is no Zune (ipod touch - android player). The netbook-tablet-whatever surface is overpriced and there is only the one ARM, but it is w8, not wp8 and will br superseded by an intel processor model.

Reading the article, it sounded like 'who needs anything else, mother microsoft has everything'. Only true if you only use their stuff already - outlook, skydrive, o360, zunemusic, xbox live and don't want apps. If you instead collaborate with google docs, prefer their mapping and have all your favorites there, or use chrome's sync...? Or have a mac at home?

I don't think google would object to microsoft using their own resources to provide access to google. But I can see why Google doesn't want to use their own. I also suspect they mean there won't be the tile versions of apps, but they probably will support the desktop.

Reply Score: 3

Oh, really?!?
by sgtrock on Mon 17th Dec 2012 18:17 UTC in reply to "RE: Google do not have problem with WP :P"
sgtrock Member since:
2011-05-13

It is a fact that Windows Phone sales are up, app submissions are up, and app revenue is up. The ecosystem blew by Blackberry to become the third largest mobile ecosystem out there.

Windows 8 will soon eclipse everyone else in that regard, which should only have a halo effect on Widows Phone as the alignment continues in a series of releases.


Care to document your sources for this? At least one analyst vehemently disagrees with you (language and bolding in the original):

The carriers hate Microsoft Windows Phone, not because it has Skype pre-installed and fully integrated with Microsoft's 1.25 Billion PC world - they don't like that either - but because Skype was a tiny irritant of big damage before Microsoft bought it. Today Skype cannot be killed because Microsoft owns and bankrolls the existential threat to mobile operator/carrier business. Not my words, Nokia's CEO Stephen Elop told Nokia shareholders that carriers don't like Skype 'of course' and many are refusing any sales of Windows Phone handsets because Microsoft owns Skype. Not my words, that is Windows partner Nokia talking to Nokia shareholders via its ex-Microsoft CEO. So for any carrier to support Windows Phone is like deliberately and knowingly drinking poison.

There is no confusion in this matter. Carriers will never, ever, allow Microsoft's Windows Phone to become a significant player in mobile. Never. Ever, ever. Microsoft and Nokia can bribe their ways into a tiny share. They may get 2%, 3% if lucky, even 4% market share. That would be one THIRD better performance than Microsoft the world's largest software maker and Nokia the world's largest handset maker at the time, managed to achieve at the peak of Lumia success, added to by the best that Samsung, HTC and others could do with Windows Phone this year. The peak performance. And I am allowing 33% better performance. And if you have 4% of the global market for smartphones, you are a tiny meaningless shit. Sorry, didn't mean to say that. A tiny meaningless 'niche', you are not 'the third ecosystem' by any stretch of that definition. Sorry, Ballmer, Gates was the brilliant guy who saw this coming. You are the putz who threw the future all away. Gates at least understood that to migrate customers from one platform to another, you build a migration path, as Microsoft did from DOS to Windows nearly 3 decades ago.


Source: http://communities-dominate.blogs.com/brands/2012/12/android-won-wi...

Reply Score: 4

tylerdurden Member since:
2009-03-17


It is a fact that Windows Phone sales are up, app submissions are up, and app revenue is up. The ecosystem blew by Blackberry to become the third largest mobile ecosystem out there.


Well as of Q3 2012 Blackberry was at 6% marketshare, whereas Windows Phone started at 3%. Q4 is not over yet, so where are you getting those facts?

Reply Score: 4

Well, he's right about one thing
by darknexus on Mon 17th Dec 2012 12:41 UTC
darknexus
Member since:
2008-07-15

No one but Microsoft can turn Windows Phone around. I hope they do, but I don't think management is able to change the way they see both the market and their company. They continue to act like they're the big boys, and are absolutely failing to realize that they can't depend on being the dominant player in the mobile space. Their majority market share on desktops and laptops isn't going to magically put them at the top. They need to work for it, something they haven't had to do in at least fifteen years and this time, unlike with traditional X86-based PCs, they actually have real competitors that produce viable mobile platforms of their own, and produced them first. They're the underdog here, and they'd better realize that fairly quickly or risk utter failure.

Reply Score: 10

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

By far the most sensible comment on this article, and I think you're spot on the money. While using Windows as a vehicle to bootstrap their ecosystem gives them a fighting chance, a lot of it will have to come from them.

Execution could be a little bit better, and it will get better, but that, along with the tides of the market will give way to a stronger position to Microsoft. It runs contrary to logic for some people to suggest it won't eventually be the third ecosystem, simply because no one else has pockets as deep and a resolve as unshakable. Microsoft recognizes how vital this is to their long term sustainability, and will do what they always do, claw their way into a market.

People told Microsoft to dump Xbox after the first gen console too. These things take time.

Reply Score: 3

kragil
Member since:
2006-01-04

Why would they invest into a phone platform where the search button is hardwired to useless Bing?

At least on Android you can change just about anything, that is why nearly everybody invests in it.

Open platforms always win the majority of the market, the rest is for locked-in people or fanboys.

Reply Score: 3

MOS6510 Member since:
2011-05-12

IIRC the upcoming WP7.8 update allows you to select Google as the default search engine instead of Bing.

If 7.8 can do it I'm sure WP8 can/will too.

Personally I have no problems with Bing search, or Google.

Reply Score: 3

WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

Personally I have no problems with Bing search, or Google.


Out of the two I find Google giving me better matches for my searches, sometimes Bing doesn't return anything relevant whatsoever. That said, ever since Google started second-guessing what I actually want I've noticed the relevance to my searches going down there, too.

Oh, how I sometimes wish I could just have a database-like search engine that does not try to second-guess my searches.

Reply Score: 8

MOS6510 Member since:
2011-05-12

Remember the good old days where you had tools that could search multiple search engines at once. Yahoo, Altavista, Lycos, etc...

Reply Score: 2

rikkirakk Member since:
2012-07-30

Doesn't Duck Duck Go work that way?

Reply Score: 1

MOS6510 Member since:
2011-05-12

According to Wikipedia it kind of does:

"DuckDuckGo's results are a compilation of many sources, including Yahoo! Search BOSS, Wikipedia, Wolfram Alpha and its own Web crawler, the DuckDuckBot."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DuckDuckGo

Reply Score: 2

JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

Once again proving that Bing is useless outside of US.

Reply Score: 6

zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Oh, how I sometimes wish I could just have a database-like search engine that does not try to second-guess my searches.

We kinda had that, with directories (like dmoz.org); it wasn't that good.

PS. Maybe now Wikipedia can be partly seen as providing such database-like search, with its hierarchically organised, into categories, articles.

Reply Score: 2

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Nope. Google will be able to be set as the default search engine in IE on Windows Phone, the Search Button is still hard-wired to the Bing app.

It may sound bad, but the way it was before where the Search button was contextual was worse because little developers used it, it was used inconsistently, and there was no visual cue.

It used to be that the Search button let you actually search inside apps that implemented the functionality, but it didn't really work out so well.

Reply Score: 2

MOS6510 Member since:
2011-05-12

To be honest I use the 'back' button 99% of the time.

It would have been a nice feature to use the search button to search within apps instead of just being a shortcut to Bing.

Reply Score: 2

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Its a shame they didn't re-add it in WP8 and made it more like the Search Contract. That takes care of both contextual and universal OS searching.

Huge miss IMO.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by PieterGen
by PieterGen on Mon 17th Dec 2012 13:10 UTC
PieterGen
Member since:
2012-01-13

Why would the market want a 3rd mobile platform? As much as it hurt me (I'm a Linux guy), the desktop world has long been dominated by 2 (not 3!) platforms: Windows and OSX.

Now we have the mobile space with 2 dominant platforms, Android and iOS. Why would there be space for a 3rd?

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by PieterGen
by shmerl on Mon 17th Dec 2012 16:15 UTC in reply to "Comment by PieterGen"
shmerl Member since:
2010-06-08

Why not. However the market is already fed up with Microsoft garbage on the desktop, so their push for mobile is ignored. Markets needs something new and innovative, instead of another walled iOS clone with draconian control.

Edited 2012-12-17 16:18 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by PieterGen
by dsmogor on Mon 17th Dec 2012 21:46 UTC in reply to "Comment by PieterGen"
dsmogor Member since:
2005-09-01

Android lockin on the market is far smaller than one MS enjoys in desktop PC world. They doesn't have proprietary formats, protocols and incompatible HW that reinforces dominance through network effects. Their services are based on open standards so anyone can join in. Their dominance is only based on advantages they pose to oems and thus is volatile and can be overcome as fast as it has emerged. So while 3rd ecosystem may not make sense replacing the 2nd or event 1st is (and will still be) possible.
MS story with WP on the other hand is repeating Win32/Office lockin in even stronger manner. Proprietary HW, closed exclusive market, closed source, patents. It takes no genius to observe that once it becomes dominant there's be no way back until another massive disruption.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Comment by PieterGen
by Fergy on Wed 19th Dec 2012 22:12 UTC in reply to "Comment by PieterGen"
Fergy Member since:
2006-04-10

Why would the market want a 3rd mobile platform? As much as it hurt me (I'm a Linux guy), the desktop world has long been dominated by 2 (not 3!) platforms: Windows and OSX.

Now we have the mobile space with 2 dominant platforms, Android and iOS. Why would there be space for a 3rd?

Look at what pace smartphones are developing and compare that to pcs. That is what a 2 player market does to development.
Please let's have a healthy market with a lot of players. When webapps come they will be the tarballs of smartphones.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Comment by PieterGen
by zima on Mon 24th Dec 2012 22:55 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by PieterGen"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

PCs also improved that fast, for a few years a decade ago ...they are simply good enough now.

Wintel PCs, thanks to their economies of scale, brought us inexpensive & powerful machines (suitable for a nice *nix workstation, for example), thankfully killed the mess with sub-par 80s micros & their stagnation (think about it, C64 was produced for a decade; Amiga also didn't really manage to move beyond 500-generation). And as to why Wintel... we didn't really have better options back then ( http://www.osnews.com/thread?522221 ); at least now it's a bit different, MS should still be the 3rd.

Reply Score: 2

Not in this case
by bowkota on Mon 17th Dec 2012 13:21 UTC
bowkota
Member since:
2011-10-12

Interesting article and I would agree with it however not in this scenario. It's true that Microsoft has services that could replace Google sufficiently for most of its users.

However, in this case they were the ones that joined the market late and they need to catch up to their competitors. This means they need to lure customers away from Apple or Android and I'm not sure if that is feasible without Google services which are available on both their competitors' platforms.

Edited 2012-12-17 13:22 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE: Not in this case
by zima on Mon 24th Dec 2012 23:07 UTC in reply to "Not in this case"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Looking at the history of Microsoft, they have a good track record - MS was a latecomer in the market of OS, GUI, office suites, consoles; and they dominate the first three, while having perhaps the biggest momentum in fourth.

Reply Score: 2

Author lives in a bubble
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Mon 17th Dec 2012 15:04 UTC
Bill Shooter of Bul
Member since:
2006-07-14

People who buy smart phones do not start from scratch with no relationship to "web services". They already have an email account, online doc storage, online office suite, calendaring, etc. So the lack of windows phone to offer compatible apps with google services acts as a deterrent to people switching or even choosing windows phone as their first smart phone. Its highly doubtful that Microsoft will get its webservices to the point where it will cause a mass migration from google. I really just wouldn't trust MS to keep its free webservices free. They really do want people to subscribe to office 365. If they didn't have competition from google, libre/open office, I think we'd still be paying north of $265 for a license of Microsoft word "student and teacher" edition.

Reply Score: 9

RE: Author lives in a bubble
by dsmogor on Mon 17th Dec 2012 21:48 UTC in reply to "Author lives in a bubble"
dsmogor Member since:
2005-09-01

What stops MS from delivering first class GMail support in WP?

Reply Score: 3

RE: Author lives in a bubble
by dukes on Tue 18th Dec 2012 06:17 UTC in reply to "Author lives in a bubble"
dukes Member since:
2005-07-06

People who buy smart phones do not start from scratch with no relationship to "web services". They already have an email account, online doc storage, online office suite, calendaring, etc. So the lack of windows phone to offer compatible apps with google services acts as a deterrent to people switching or even choosing windows phone as their first smart phone. Its highly doubtful that Microsoft will get its webservices to the point where it will cause a mass migration from google. I really just wouldn't trust MS to keep its free webservices free. They really do want people to subscribe to office 365. If they didn't have competition from google, libre/open office, I think we'd still be paying north of $265 for a license of Microsoft word "student and teacher" edition.


FUD.

I am a prime example against what you are stating. I don't know where you get your information that there aren't compatible apps with google services because I've been using them since I switched from iOS to WP in April 2012.

With the latest moves between the two companies, I have started migrating off of Google services onto Microsoft's. They have *everything* that I used Google for. Especially Office. The one thing that made me grind my teeth about Google Docs' Word alternative is how it mangled resumes. Now I can just use the real thing--MS Word.

Reply Score: 3

Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

I don't think you understood. The author seems to think that because Microsoft offers webmail, calendaring, cloud storage, etc, that people won't mind changing providers for all of those over to Microsoft.

As it is now, I can switch between IOS and Android devices without having to change any of that. I can't use windows phone now, without changing those over to Microsoft services.

Reply Score: 2

Bad article
by chithanh on Mon 17th Dec 2012 17:45 UTC
chithanh
Member since:
2006-06-18

The author of that article seems to be seriously deluded:

It is clear they are willing to alienate a huge tract of their user base to drawn the line in the sand with their eco system, if you want to use their stuff you’ll need to go directly to them. Will they use the same strong-arm tactics with Apple when the time comes?
Windows Phone is not a "huge tract" in any measurable way. The entire installed base is what? 20 Million? That's what Android sells in two weeks. Recently, ZDNet Germany found[1] that 0.25% of their page impressions come from Windows Phone (compared to 28.42% from Android and 8.10% from iOS)

iOS did not get spared from the drop because of Google's goodwill, but because they support open standards.

Secondly, one commenter gets it right:
But as soon as userbase increases to near 20%, Google will be there in a sec. Google is a snoop by nature and they won't sit still until they "know" exactly what W8 & WP8 users are doing when there are enough of them.
So the way to get Google sufficiently interested to overcome the proprietary barriers of Microsoft is to bring more users to Windows Phone.

[1] http://www.zdnet.de/88136184/marktanteil-2012-windows-verliert-andr...

Reply Score: 3

I agree that it doesn't rest with Google
by ronaldst on Mon 17th Dec 2012 19:01 UTC
ronaldst
Member since:
2005-06-29

It rests with handsets that can be used at the retail space.

The retail channel problem is still an issue. All I see are one or 2 closed handsets (with UI stickers) dumped on tables of Android phones. All the ones customers can play with are Galaxies and the iPhone. There hasn't been much progress on this front.

Reply Score: 2

unclefester Member since:
2007-01-13


The retail channel problem is still an issue. All I see are one or 2 closed handsets (with UI stickers) dumped on tables of Android phones.


Come to Australia. WP8 phones are now the most heavily promoted models. They are on the front cover of the latest Vodaphone catalogue and in the most prominent postions in the stores.

iPhones are missing from most phone stores and are barely mentioned in the catalogues.

Reply Score: 3

Google Voice
by WorknMan on Mon 17th Dec 2012 20:19 UTC
WorknMan
Member since:
2005-11-13

They need a Google Voice alternative that integrates nicely into the phone. Not having such a thing is a deal breaker for me.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Google Voice
by dukes on Tue 18th Dec 2012 06:11 UTC in reply to "Google Voice"
dukes Member since:
2005-07-06

They need a Google Voice alternative that integrates nicely into the phone. Not having such a thing is a deal breaker for me.


You must not have done *any* research because I have two very good Google Voice apps that I am having trouble deciding on which one to use.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Google Voice
by WorknMan on Tue 18th Dec 2012 08:02 UTC in reply to "RE: Google Voice"
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

I saw this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgEa1_Q6M70

Doesn't look nearly as nice as the Android app.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Google Voice
by Nelson on Tue 18th Dec 2012 07:16 UTC in reply to "Google Voice"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

If Google had a sane Google Voice API, I would of written one ages ago.

But they don't. Oh well, there are alternative for some of GV's feature set in other apps on WP.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Google Voice
by zima on Mon 24th Dec 2012 18:50 UTC in reply to "Google Voice"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Skype will likely get there fairly soon...

...though it's curious - some people claim that carriers dislike of Skype is a major barrier for WP adoption; but not so with Google Voice?

Reply Score: 2