Linked by Kaj-de-Vos on Thu 20th Dec 2012 00:22 UTC
Syllable, AtheOS As the Syllable project predicted many years ago, version 3 of the REBOL programming language has finally been open sourced, under the Apache 2 licence (screenshot on Syllable Desktop). Also, the alpha version of the high-level Red programming language, supporting Syllable Desktop, has been released, by now in version 0.3.1 (screenshot, demo program, video at the Science Park in Amsterdam).
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My head hurts...
by danger_nakamura on Thu 20th Dec 2012 02:15 UTC
danger_nakamura
Member since:
2011-06-21

...

Reply Score: 2

RE: My head hurts...
by Kaj-de-Vos on Thu 20th Dec 2012 02:47 UTC in reply to "My head hurts..."
Kaj-de-Vos Member since:
2010-06-09

Anything particular you want explained?

Reply Score: 2

Comment by cipri
by cipri on Thu 20th Dec 2012 03:50 UTC
cipri
Member since:
2007-02-15

Yes great, it was predicted by kaj about 6 years ago that it would be open sourced. At the beginning i was sceptical. Some years later seeing after a big stagnation of rebol I was sure too, that it's the only thing that they still can do. Rebol 3 is now about since half of a decade in alpha phase.
So Rebol 3.0 ALPHA is now open source. But why dont they make Rebol 2.x opern source? Because Rebol 2 is in a useable state.

This "news" is like telling us that now (the horse) black beauty (now being very old and sick and soon dieing) will be very cheap to buy.

This news about rebol is lika a deja vu, nearly everytime (in the last years) when there is on osnews about syllable, then it has very little with syllable to do, but it's about rebol. What is syllable going to do in future? Anytime when rebol gets a little update to write a news about it? Just because they dont make anything by themself, and for the sake of being in the "os-news", we need to get this news from syllable?

Rebol and syllable have at least one thing in common:
both projects are at the limit of surviving, and they both hope that developers will come and start coding instead of them.....

It was not noticed in the last few years, that this doesnt work like that? Nobody came to rescue you. If you want success... than you must really work yourself, and go a good job, and not just waiting in hopeing that makin fake publicity will bring some stupid and at the same time capable(!) programmers to syllable, who will save them.

I shouldn't have wasted the time on writing this comment, but somehow i'm still curious why you still continue with the fake publicity, even you noticed in the last 3-5 years that it doesnt work.

Reply Score: 6

RE: Comment by cipri
by henrikmk on Thu 20th Dec 2012 07:48 UTC in reply to "Comment by cipri"
henrikmk Member since:
2005-07-10

So Rebol 3.0 ALPHA is now open source. But why dont they make Rebol 2.x opern source? Because Rebol 2 is in a useable state.


REBOL 2 contains third party code and it would take too much time and effort to open source it. It was apparently quite a legal effort to open source REBOL 3.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by cipri
by -pekr- on Thu 20th Dec 2012 08:52 UTC in reply to "Comment by cipri"
-pekr- Member since:
2006-03-28

Cipri - you now clearly confirmed, that you are mostly a troll. You put in strong claims here, with clear evidence, that you have absolute zero Rebol or even technical related knowledge and you are just trolling.

Tech industry plays the alpha, beta, production game. I now even more realise, with such idiotic reaction as yours, why I value Carl Sassenrath's work - his alpha SW might be some other project nearly production state SW.

Do you know, that R3 actually has less tickets that R2? So why the call to open R2? So - if you are not informed, you better stay silent ...

I am really fed-up with your reactions, when you pop up each time with negative reaction, each time some Syllable related news is published. You are like small spoiled child - so please - go grow up or do us a favor and find yourself a better place to play. Thanks ...

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Comment by cipri
by cipri on Thu 20th Dec 2012 12:49 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by cipri"
cipri Member since:
2007-02-15

you have absolute zero Rebol or even technical related knowledge

I wouldnt bet my money related to the technical knowledge. I even have a diploma asserting my techinal knowledge :-)

I spent a lot of time with rebol 2.
And have written all sort of applications like chat server and chat client for irc (and also with direct communication and using additional encryption).
With rebol 3 i could not do that much because the gui was not in a useable state by then. And I'm sure there are still good reasons why it's called ALPHA.

I am really fed-up with your reactions


my reactions are negative, because syllable comes up all the time with joke-articles, nothing of weight, nothing of own creation.

Come up finally with wifi support (which was promised by vanders in 2005 or 2006). Port Mesa, and hw graphics drivers, and I will be the first to congratulate you.
In the last years it hardly happened that syllable didnt write related to rebol, and in fact as far as i see rebol did not make any/considerable progress on syllable. You don't have any gui bindings for rebol or red, and i can bet that even in 5 years from now you wont have functional gui bindings for syllable. And this is because syllable awaits a miracle instead of doing real work.

I would understand it, if rebol itself would write the news about opening the sources. But why syllable? Should haiku announce the updates of mesa, just because mesa runs on haiku? Hello??
In one article syllable was even telling us that red runs on ubuntu, how great!

the progress on syllable desktop in the last years, is that incredible small, but instead of working on core syllable desktop, we get such fake articles, just for the sake of being on osnews.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Comment by cipri
by Kaj-de-Vos on Thu 20th Dec 2012 13:52 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by cipri"
Kaj-de-Vos Member since:
2010-06-09

I ported Mesa two years ago or so, it's in Syllable 0.6.7. Vanders never promised wifi, we merely discussed it. The rest of your "info" is also misinformation.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Comment by cipri
by cipri on Thu 20th Dec 2012 23:36 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by cipri"
cipri Member since:
2007-02-15

I ported Mesa two years ago or so, it's in Syllable 0.6.7. Vanders never promised wifi, we merely discussed it. The rest of your "info" is also misinformation.


Well, wifi was not only discussed it was intended in 2007 as a x-mas present for 2008, or something like that.

And related to mesa3d:
my sincer congratulations for porting it.
But too bad that your port of mesa is not complelte in the sense that it doesnt "print on the screen" according to your own documentation. So I have some little doubts about how well mesa is tested on syllable if you dont have a direct visual output. This is some kind of mesa for blinds.
You could have a good occupation for the next decade: Bring mesa to the screen, and then see if indeed mesa is working correctly, and integrate it in the syllable api.
But surprize, there are very bad chances this to happen, because for that you need to know the appserver, and there is hardly someone left in the so called "syllable team", who has good knowledge related to the appsever (Vanders is inactive for years, Arno is gone, Rick is gone, and Dee seems to be occupied with pyro).
So yes, you have a good occupation for the next decade.
One could wish hw acc. graphics drivers too, but indeed that's too much even if you are an optimist.

in short again:
if you have good news related to syllable development i'm happy to read it, but seeing that you come up that often with fake news, that are not really that much related to syllable, is somehow annoying, and seeing all the screenshots that are the same as in previous "syllable news".

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Comment by cipri
by Kaj-de-Vos on Fri 21st Dec 2012 00:07 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by cipri"
Kaj-de-Vos Member since:
2010-06-09

You're delusional. But of course, you want to be.

Reply Score: 0

RE[6]: Comment by cipri
by henderson101 on Fri 21st Dec 2012 12:01 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by cipri"
henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

You're delusional. But of course, you want to be.

*Someone* is delusional for sure. But I won't get in to a pissing contest with you. But, Kai, most of what Cipri is saying seems pretty on the nose to me. Not about promised features, but about fake news and lack of development of the core Desktop OS. And for the record, a port isn't a port if it doesn't actually work as intended. Mesa isn't ported to Syllable if it doesn't actually render graphics.

Reply Score: 5

RE[7]: Comment by cipri
by Kaj-de-Vos on Fri 21st Dec 2012 13:48 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by cipri"
Kaj-de-Vos Member since:
2010-06-09

The source repositories of the work presented here are openly available. Haven't you noticed the name on much of the work on particularly Red, or do you choose to ignore it?

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: Comment by cipri
by Vanders on Fri 21st Dec 2012 11:14 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by cipri"
Vanders Member since:
2005-07-06

Well, wifi was not only discussed it was intended in 2007 as a x-mas present for 2008, or something like that.

Let me state absolutely categorically: it was not, and I never made any such "promise" or even vague hints.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment by cipri
by cipri on Fri 21st Dec 2012 14:12 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by cipri"
cipri Member since:
2007-02-15

it was not, and I never made any such "promise" or even vague hints.


Well, i did a quick search. And didnt find a firm promise, but a vague hint i found in the mailing list:

From: Kristian Van Der Vliet <vanders@li...> - 2007-01-01 12:55
"
My crystal ball is hazy as I look into 2007, but hopefully we'll see:
o WiFi support.
"

As far as I remember there was a more promising state for beginning of 2008 but didnt find it, i found just a post from myself from july 2007, where i was saying that "in vanders opinion we will have support for wifi at beginning of 2008".
But the problem is, that the old syllable forum broke the new one has just the forum posts starting with september 2008. So I can not search for the reasons i made that statement in july 2007.

So far, this quick search could not prove my statement, but i guess a "vague hint" i could provide.

In the mailing list i found something else that is cute:
From: Kristian Van Der Vliet <vanders@li...> - 2005-12-31 14:22

At the start of 2005, some of you may recall that I made a New Years Resolution. I said that I would be using Syllable full time, as my primary Operating System, by the end of the year. Sadly, I havn't quite managed it.
......
However, I am confident that I'll be able to make the switch within the next few months.


It seems that all the rumor related to new years resolutions is true :-))

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Comment by cipri
by Vanders on Sat 22nd Dec 2012 13:08 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by cipri"
Vanders Member since:
2005-07-06

*rolls eyes* Yes, fine, obviously you know better than me about what I planned to do five years ago. Go you.

Strangely I couldn't find any emails from yourself saying "Oh wow, I really want WiFi support, so I've started work on developing it!". Strange, that.

Reply Score: 1

Comment by MOS6510
by MOS6510 on Thu 20th Dec 2012 08:59 UTC
MOS6510
Member since:
2011-05-12

I'm just wondering about the "why" of Syllable.

If you read its description it might as well be a Linux distribution. Apparently it will fine on old hardware, but even dual core machines are joining the pile of discard.

But Linux runs fine on old hardware too (just like *BSD) and Linux has a much broader software selection, support, acceptance. DOS, NT4, Win95/98 are also operating systems that work fine on a Pentium based PC.

I like operating systems, but I like them more if they are somewhat unique and with Syllable I'm just seeing a lot of stuff that's common in the Linux world getting ported. So you'll end up with a kind of Linux clone that is missing a lot of stuff that a real Linux install does have.

Once you start porting system stuff I think you need to wonder if you are still creating your own operating system or if you are just copying.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Comment by MOS6510
by Kaj-de-Vos on Thu 20th Dec 2012 11:54 UTC in reply to "Comment by MOS6510"
Kaj-de-Vos Member since:
2010-06-09

You only have to start Syllable once to experience that it's not Linux. Why don't you give it a try?

Syllable's concept has always been to be an excellent base to port existing open source software on. Syllable is a complete stack of its own: kernel, driver framework, application server, multi-media server, user-space toolkit, and a collection of native apps. Around that skeleton, by now more than 99% of the code is ported. How do you suggest we arrive at end-user functionality if we would reinvent the wheel for everything?

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by MOS6510
by MOS6510 on Thu 20th Dec 2012 12:08 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by MOS6510"
MOS6510 Member since:
2011-05-12

I'm planning to give it a try. My attempt this morning failed, but that's apparently because VirtualBox and Syllable isn't a great match.

With regards to reinventing the wheel, there is a wheel and if too much stuff is just ported you end up with another wheel and then I wonder why bother if there already was a fine wheel. In this case the first wheel is called Linux.

Maybe I should try Syllable first, because now I see all these open source projects that are also on Linux, giving me the impression it's all the usual suspects running on a different kernel.

There have been and are a number of "operating systems" that are just the Linux kernel, GNU stuff and then some small twist. If Syllable presents me with a bash shell and vi I will get a Linux feeling.

But okay, maybe I should try it first.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Comment by MOS6510
by Kaj-de-Vos on Thu 20th Dec 2012 12:19 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by MOS6510"
Kaj-de-Vos Member since:
2010-06-09

Again, Syllable Desktop is built on its own kernel, not the Linux kernel.

VirtualBox works, but needs to be configured right. Syllable doesn't support SATA, so you need to set VB to an IDE disk.

Here's an image in standardised OVF format, generated by VMware, if that helps:

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B-dRFgFxR1iJOEtySWJ5NWFBMXc

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Comment by MOS6510
by zima on Thu 27th Dec 2012 18:10 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by MOS6510"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Syllable doesn't support SATA

...after a decade of SATA displacing IDE?

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by MOS6510
by stew on Thu 20th Dec 2012 12:04 UTC in reply to "Comment by MOS6510"
stew Member since:
2005-07-06

You do know that this is exactly how Linux got started, right? Porting software from Minix, GNU and other Unix operating systems?

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by MOS6510
by MOS6510 on Thu 20th Dec 2012 12:20 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by MOS6510"
MOS6510 Member since:
2011-05-12

Yes, I do, but Linux filled a space: a UNIX like system on home computer hardware. Minix wasn't up for it and real UNIX wasn't either.

A new operating system, like Syllable, needs to (IMHO) offer more than just being fast on an old computer. For a computer to be useful you need applications and if these are just Firefox, OpenOffice and the usual others I wonder why not just install Linux.

What I personally would like to see is an operating system that operates in a new and original way, with it's own original software. Sure stuff can be ported too, but in addition to original software. Microsoft Office for Windows and for Mac are different yet somewhat the same.

Syllable has its own kernel and file system, that's a nice thing for starters. But for a user that's behind the scenes stuff, if all it does is run Firefox it might as well be a Linux distribution.

I wonder also if the goal, to be a fast user friendly desktop OS, is a realistic one if you can't sync your iPhone to it, run the latest version of Flash, use all the features of a desktop printer or do other modern things.

Considering the competition in that area of Windows, OS X and Linux it will never capture much of a user base.

Apparently it once started as an AmigaOS clone. If they'd stuck with that it would have been a more unique goal. Still a small following, but it would not be in the same pond as Windows, OS X and Linux.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Comment by MOS6510
by Kaj-de-Vos on Thu 20th Dec 2012 12:28 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by MOS6510"
Kaj-de-Vos Member since:
2010-06-09

That's exactly what Syllable is. As I said, it has a collection of native applications that you won't find anywhere else, and it has a software development environment that's easier than many others so you can develop more native applications of your own.

In addition, there's ported software, but you seem to contradict yourself on that. Would you rather not have ported software be available, or would you want the operating system to be unable to get software ported?

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Comment by MOS6510
by MOS6510 on Thu 20th Dec 2012 12:54 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by MOS6510"
MOS6510 Member since:
2011-05-12

It's okay to have some stuff ported. The Amiga had WordPerfect, OS X has Microsoft Office, but these were/are not exact ports. Also both systems had a lot of unique software.

It would a shame really if everything on Syllable were exact ports.

I can't get the image to work, although if I play around with the settings I can get it to freeze different ways during boot. I'll try it on a real computer at home.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Comment by MOS6510
by Kaj-de-Vos on Thu 20th Dec 2012 13:56 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by MOS6510"
Kaj-de-Vos Member since:
2010-06-09

Your best quick bet is the live CD on real hardware, or running the install CD on a VirtualBox with an IDE disk, using the VirtualBox install option. It needs special Syllable kernel settings.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Comment by MOS6510
by cipri on Thu 20th Dec 2012 12:59 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by MOS6510"
cipri Member since:
2007-02-15

and it has a software development environment that's easier than many others


Yes, in the sense, that Notepad is easier than Microsoft Office 2013.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by Tanner
by Tanner on Thu 20th Dec 2012 10:49 UTC
Tanner
Member since:
2005-07-06

Oh God,
if they're developing this, they surely got the point.
If you don't get their point this doesn't mean they don't have one.

Reply Score: 1

REBOL
by timalot on Thu 20th Dec 2012 11:03 UTC
timalot
Member since:
2006-07-17

I don't know. A programming language where:

1 + 2 * 3

evaluates to 9 is fail to me.

Reply Score: 2

REBOL
by Kaj-de-Vos on Thu 20th Dec 2012 12:04 UTC in reply to "REBOL"
Kaj-de-Vos Member since:
2010-06-09

My "The C Programming Language, Second Edition" falls open at page 53, where the precedence table of operators is. When I program in C, I often need to refer to it, because it's too complex to remember. Much C code acknowledges that by not even relying on precedence, but littering expressions with parentheses to make them unambiguous.

This problem doesn't exist in REBOL and Red, because they have only two simple precedence rules:

- Operators evaluate from left to right.
- Infix operators take precedence over prefix functions.

If you want * to take precedence over +, you can simply write

1 + (2 * 3)

However, as a REBOL programmer you quickly get used to writing it as

2 * 3 + 1

Reply Score: 3

REBOL
by andrewclunn on Thu 20th Dec 2012 13:20 UTC in reply to "REBOL"
andrewclunn Member since:
2012-11-05

That's either genius or the dumbest thing I've ever seen.

Edited 2012-12-20 13:20 UTC

Reply Score: 3

REBOL
by henrikmk on Thu 20th Dec 2012 13:32 UTC in reply to "REBOL"
henrikmk Member since:
2005-07-10

You just gotta get used to it, that's all. It's simpler for the interpreter to handle.

Reply Score: 2

REBOL
by Kaj-de-Vos on Thu 20th Dec 2012 13:58 UTC in reply to "REBOL"
Kaj-de-Vos Member since:
2010-06-09

It's a pattern that people can't see the difference. :-) Otherwise, it wouldn't be outstanding.

Reply Score: 1

REBOL
by satsujinka on Fri 21st Dec 2012 00:37 UTC in reply to "REBOL"
satsujinka Member since:
2010-03-11

I understand why you'd do that, but... I'd have the reverse problem. I'd have to constantly be rearranging any REBOL code I wrote because I would have written it expecting precedence (which comes naturally to me because I have a strong background in math.)

Reply Score: 2

REBOL
by Kaj-de-Vos on Fri 21st Dec 2012 00:57 UTC in reply to "REBOL"
Kaj-de-Vos Member since:
2010-06-09

No, you can just add parentheses, as I showed.

Reply Score: 1

REBOL
by satsujinka on Fri 21st Dec 2012 02:44 UTC in reply to "REBOL"
satsujinka Member since:
2010-03-11

Which in a nitpicky sense is rearranging. However, I meant more that if "3*2+1" is the preferred pattern and I'm writing "1+2*3" then I'll be rearranging all the time.

Reply Score: 2

REBOL
by Kaj-de-Vos on Fri 21st Dec 2012 13:36 UTC in reply to "REBOL"
Kaj-de-Vos Member since:
2010-06-09

In your head, yes. But that's exactly what programming is: rearranging thoughts all the time.

Many of the people who use REBOL have strong math backgrounds. They're not hindered by REBOL's precedence rules. In fact, REBOL has a math-like elegance to it.

One way to look at it is that a math background should make you a more flexible thinker. When you start a math assignment, you first have to define the rules of the system in which you will calculate. Different math systems have quite different rules. It shouldn't be a big stretch to define different rules for operator precedence.

Reply Score: 3

REBOL
by cipri on Fri 21st Dec 2012 15:02 UTC in reply to "REBOL"
cipri Member since:
2007-02-15

In your head, yes. But that's exactly what programming is: rearranging thoughts all the time.
Many of the people who use REBOL have strong math backgrounds. They're not hindered by REBOL's precedence rules. In fact, REBOL has a math-like elegance to it.



It's great how you try to sell a bug or missing features, as something great.

Reply Score: 2

REBOL
by Kaj-de-Vos on Fri 21st Dec 2012 17:02 UTC in reply to "REBOL"
Kaj-de-Vos Member since:
2010-06-09

It's great to see how afraid you are that we will be successful. :-)

Reply Score: 1

REBOL
by satsujinka on Fri 21st Dec 2012 19:58 UTC in reply to "REBOL"
satsujinka Member since:
2010-03-11

Ideally, yes I can adapt to any system you could propose. The question is: Why should I?*

C works well, it's not my favorite language; but it gets the job done and I've never found it necessary to look at precedence rules in C while writing (but then again C was my first language.)

Now that said, having strict left to right precedence would be a better system then math's. Just try to convince the mathematicians of that.

*NOTE: I probably will try out REBOL when I find time to, but your argument "just get used to it" is very weak and deserves addressing on principle.

Reply Score: 2

REBOL
by henrikmk on Fri 21st Dec 2012 20:26 UTC in reply to "REBOL"
henrikmk Member since:
2005-07-10

I find it interesting that there is now a discussion on math precedence, which is usually not an issue for those who try REBOL.

There is not some grand scheme at work here. REBOLs design is based on pragmatically solving general problems, not to build on or tweak the conventions of other languages.

REBOLs form of math precedence happens to reduce the number of rules to remember to a single left to right rule.

Reply Score: 2

REBOL
by renox on Fri 21st Dec 2012 10:30 UTC in reply to "REBOL"
renox Member since:
2005-07-06

So your justification that Rebol has a strange behaviour because C has also a strange (different) behaviour??

Both are wrong IMHO: the best behaviour is: associativity as in math for + - * / and for all the other operators Rebol behaviour.

Reply Score: 3

REBOL
by Kaj-de-Vos on Fri 21st Dec 2012 13:41 UTC in reply to "REBOL"
Kaj-de-Vos Member since:
2010-06-09

That's an interesting idea, which would indeed fit best with common people's experience. The nice thing about REBOL is that it's a meta language: you have control over how the language is evaluated. REBOL makes it easy to write an expression evaluator that would use the rules you stated. I would indeed implement such an evaluator if I would allow users to enter their own expressions, for example in a calculator application.

Reply Score: 1

REBOL
by RobG on Fri 21st Dec 2012 14:27 UTC in reply to "REBOL"
RobG Member since:
2012-10-17

I absolutely disagree. There are 2 choices to my mind:

1. Use standard precedences for arithmetic, comparison and logic operators as defined in common mathematical usage.

2. Have everything use standard precedences.

C's implementation is actually flawed - Ritchie himself acknowledges so (http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/chist.html), so blindly copying that seems the wrong approach.

Reply Score: 2

REBOL
by henrikmk on Fri 21st Dec 2012 15:00 UTC in reply to "REBOL"
henrikmk Member since:
2005-07-10

From the horses' mouth, so to speak, on math precedence in REBOL:

http://www.rebol.com/r3/docs/concepts/math-precedence.html

Reply Score: 2

REBOL
by satsujinka on Fri 21st Dec 2012 20:02 UTC in reply to "REBOL"
satsujinka Member since:
2010-03-11

Your link's dead, but you can get to it here:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:cm.bell-labs.c...

The only issue I can find in the document is that boolean and bitwise operators have a somewhat weird relationship (boolean comes before bitwise.) The example being:
if((a&mask)==b)

the second set of parenthesis are required.

Reply Score: 2

REBOL
by jockm on Tue 25th Dec 2012 15:47 UTC in reply to "REBOL"
jockm Member since:
2012-12-22

When I program in C, I often need to refer to it, because it's too complex to remember


So you never learned any of the mnemonics for operator precedence? Or indeed had to learn in in school, or where it is still very much needed in real life?

If you start with the assumption that unary operators come first, and comparison and logical operators come at the end, then the old saw of My Dear Aunt Sally (multiplication, division, addition, subtraction) holds.

Much C code acknowledges that by not even relying on precedence, but littering expressions with parentheses to make them unambiguous


Or like how people do with real math, or have to do in REBOL to make sure the intent is clear?

I am not impresses with this argument. I have met many die hard proponents of Smalltalk, APL, Lisp, and Forth — and with the exception of Forth — none of them have actually claimed that the precedence in their language was somehow better. Instead they would say something like "well the operator precedence is a bit funky, but that is a consequence of how the language works, you will get used to it"

I will end as a general thought: It's ok to admit the flaws of something you love. It isn't somehow admitting defeat. Nothing that is useable in the real world is perfect. Nor in promoting your thing, do you need to talk down something else.

Reply Score: 1

REBOL
by Kaj-de-Vos on Tue 25th Dec 2012 16:02 UTC in reply to "REBOL"
Kaj-de-Vos Member since:
2010-06-09

There are many flaws in REBOL, but this is not one of them. We're fixing many of the other flaws in Red, but we're pleased with the default expression precedence as it is.

As I noted before, REBOL makes it easy to implement your own expression evaluator with different precedence when you want.

Reply Score: 1

REBOL
by jockm on Sat 22nd Dec 2012 17:33 UTC in reply to "REBOL"
jockm Member since:
2012-12-22

I don't know. A programming language where:

1 + 2 * 3

evaluates to 9 is fail to me.



There are a few languages that don't follow traditional mathematical precedence: Smalltalk, APL, REBOL, Forth, Lisp, and others.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by Tanner
by Tanner on Fri 21st Dec 2012 15:24 UTC
Tanner
Member since:
2005-07-06

From an end user perspective, Rebol's graphical widgets are a bit oudated and sucks, I think they should update the visual appeal surfing today's polishness Windows 8 and other minimal graphic interfaces show.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by Tanner
by henrikmk on Fri 21st Dec 2012 15:39 UTC in reply to "Comment by Tanner"
henrikmk Member since:
2005-07-10

We are working on this actually right now, so we hope it will be a bit nicer looking over the next 3-6 months.

Reply Score: 3

Why the emphasis on Syllable?
by jockm on Sat 22nd Dec 2012 17:48 UTC
jockm
Member since:
2012-12-22

I have no skin in this game, the last time I touched REBOL was years ago and I saw what was unique and interesting about it, but didn't end up caring much about it. I suppose I could say the same thing about Syllable for that matter, but that isn't my point.

Yes, I get that there is a high concordance between REBOL folk and Syllable folk, so it is good news for that community, but it isn't their news.

Surely the point of this story is that REBOL is being open sourced, and that is where the credit should go — to Carl Sassenrath and anyone else who was involved in open sourcing the language.

Who really cares if the Syllable folk predicted that it would be open sourced? And if if you look at the time between the prediction and it happening it wasn't an especially on the nose prediction either. Nor is that the relevant bit of the story, and yet it is presented as the lead.

Let us give credit where credit is due.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Why the emphasis on Syllable?
by Kaj-de-Vos on Sat 22nd Dec 2012 18:42 UTC in reply to "Why the emphasis on Syllable?"
Kaj-de-Vos Member since:
2010-06-09

In no way do we claim credit for open sourcing REBOL. It doesn't say that in the article, either. The article isn't purely about the open sourcing news, it's about the fact that we integrated it in our Syllable processes. The REBOL project could have sent in their own announcement, but they didn't in the week since the release, and we wouldn't have expected them to, because they're not paying much attention to publicity.

The relevancy of the REBOL announcement to Syllable, besides the integration work, is that it is of strategic importance. We selected it for Syllable's cross-platform groupware strategy in 2005, based on its technical merits, and the fact that Syllable's app platform is Syllable-only, so it can't be used for cross-platform technology. This was a controversial thing to do, because Syllable is open source and REBOL wasn't. Besides technical merit, we did it because we expected REBOL to be open sourced eventually, and we expected to be able to work towards it using open source REBOL clones in the meantime. This is exactly what we did, although it was a somewhat chaotic path: we used the R#, ORCA and Boron REBOL-like languages successively. The open sourcing of REBOL itself marks the end of this journey, together with the fact that Red is the first REBOL-like design that is superior to REBOL itself.

Since there has been much controversy about our strategy including here on OSNews, we didn't want these two milestones to go by unnoticed.

We do claim credit for most of the contributions to Red besides the language itself:

http://www.red-lang.org/p/contributions_20.html

And others mentioned in the article. Thus they are contributed to Red by the Syllable project. We also did the port of Red to Syllable, and we developed the port of Red/System to Syllable together with others in the Red project. This way, Red will become an integral part of Syllable and therefore, most work on Red is also work on Syllable.

Reply Score: 2

jockm Member since:
2012-12-22

In no way do we claim credit for open sourcing REBOL. It doesn't say that in the article, either.


Nor did I say, or imply that you did. Merely that your lead:

As the Syllable project predicted many years ago


wasn't your (meaning Syllable's) news, you buried the lead.

A better headline might have been have been:

REBOL 3 open sourced, ported to Syllable, also new Red language.


Though personally I think that is way too many stories to put in one piece. Again personally, I think that it would have been better to have one story announcing the open sourcing of REBOL 3 — aside from the article back in Sep saying that REBOL 3 would be open sourced there has been a story here about the actual release of the source — and then a separate Syllable related one.

Nor (once again) personally do I think the prediction bit was relevant to the story.

It is fine if you disagree (you wrote the story you wanted to write), I am just pointing out that I think it would have been better expressed by giving REBOL the credit for the open sourcing before you emphasize the the Syllable part.

Reply Score: 1

Kaj-de-Vos Member since:
2010-06-09

Actually, that's pretty much what I did on our own site:

http://web.syllable.org/news/2012-12-19-01-42-Open-sourced-REBOL-3-...

http://web.syllable.org/news/2012-11-18-20-47-Red-high-level-progra...

I wrote an extended version of the first Red article for OSNews that happened to fall in the first day or so of Thom's vacation. When he returned, the article was dropped for reasons unknown to me. Then the next Red release happened almost together with the REBOL release, so I was forced to combine the two news items.

Reply Score: 2

syllable
by cipri on Sun 23rd Dec 2012 04:32 UTC
cipri
Member since:
2007-02-15

Well, seems that's what the "syllable team" did in the past few years.... predictions and plans.
To be honest, core syllable lacks a lot of stuff.
Syllable has a "malnourished" core, which made as good as no progress in the last 3-5 years, the api is missing a lot of features and is quite buggy or even unfinished (e.g. the layoutmanager,...)
Instead of improving core syllable (e.g. the media kit is unfinished and buggy) and being up-to-date with the neccessary developer tools (at least a recent gcc).
Instead you have... rebol plans and predictions.

Good, but i must admit i don't know the internals of rebol, but imagine a nice situation:

what if in future the rebol interpreter will need a more recent compiler (e.g. they could use a useful c++11 feature).

Even if rebol will get out of this alpha phase some day, it's very unlikely that syllable will have a complete port, since the media-kit, opengl/mesa..etc are in a unfinished state.

Instead of building and improving the syllable "infrastructure", syllable was making rebol plans and predictions.

Reply Score: 2

RE: syllable
by Kaj-de-Vos on Sun 23rd Dec 2012 14:31 UTC in reply to "syllable"
Kaj-de-Vos Member since:
2010-06-09

REBOL is written in very standard C, because it needs to run on systems and compilers much older than Syllable. For example, Amiga OS is supported.

Furthermore, Red is its own compiler toolchain, so it is completely independent from any external compiler such as GCC.

And yes, Syllable is a development project. Nobody ever claimed it to be finished, and the most interesting thing about it is that anybody can help move it along.

Reply Score: 2

Syllable has been dead for years
by jmag on Mon 24th Dec 2012 14:43 UTC
jmag
Member since:
2012-12-24

Sorry to be blunt, but Syllable OS has been dead for years. Everyone knows this, except Kaj.
Enough of this necromantic propaganda, which is only a waste of time.

Reply Score: 1

Kaj-de-Vos Member since:
2010-06-09

I must be living in a ghost house, then. :-) My whole house is running on Syllable.

Reply Score: 1

Rebol 3
by cipri on Mon 24th Dec 2012 23:52 UTC
cipri
Member since:
2007-02-15

Ironically, today a friend asked me what language/sdk/api to use to write a little program. My first idea for windows was... qt, then i was thinking... wait... rebol could be enough. So download again r3 alpha after a long time, to see if they did some progress and if it's enough for my friend.
So i looked up again the syntax for creating a gui, to be sure to write it correctly. Somehow it didnt work. Then at the end of the documentation i see written:

[q]
More to come...
This is just a start. I'll be adding more very soon.
-Carl March 2010
[\q]

Great, 3 years later, it's still not working. R3 is really still not able to create a gui?

Reply Score: 1

RE: Rebol 3
by Kaj-de-Vos on Tue 25th Dec 2012 01:35 UTC in reply to "Rebol 3"
Kaj-de-Vos Member since:
2010-06-09

Here's the version of REBOL 3 with GUI:

http://www.saphirion.com/development/downloads-2/

It's linked from the Syllable development site:

http://development.syllable.org/main.html

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Rebol 3
by henrikmk on Tue 25th Dec 2012 08:42 UTC in reply to "RE: Rebol 3"
henrikmk Member since:
2005-07-10

Note that GUI docs may be outdated. They will be updated in the coming months.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by dukzcry
by dukzcry on Tue 25th Dec 2012 08:03 UTC
dukzcry
Member since:
2008-07-01

Ah, very nice. Now it's really a time for me to cool down to Scheme and Forth, and learn Rebol ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE: Comment by dukzcry
by dukzcry on Tue 25th Dec 2012 12:50 UTC in reply to "Comment by dukzcry"
dukzcry Member since:
2008-07-01

P.S.: These are also great news for Syllable project, since REBOL may now become one of the main languages for Syllable OS.

Reply Score: 1