Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 20th Feb 2013 09:04 UTC
Apple John Gruber illustrates the dangers of not having a clue about history: "The utter simplicity of the iOS home screen is Apple's innovation. It's the simplest, most obvious 'system' ever designed." Thanks for playing.
Order by: Score:
Oh the dangers of History.
by bowkota on Wed 20th Feb 2013 09:31 UTC
bowkota
Member since:
2011-10-12

This is a picture of the Newton OS (which predates the Palm OS):
http://www.guidebookgallery.org/pics/gui/extra/newton/controlpanel....

I'm pretty sure can find something that predates that and maybe something else that predates that etc.

I believe once again you're missing the point and the point is Apple's philosophy to make iOS simple and usable; the limit of what should be there and what shouldn't.
Piling on endless features that just adding complexity and going to extremes (larger and larger displays) is the easiest thing you can do.

Regardless, you've credited Palm countless time with the "invention"(?) of the mobile platform. Let's assume you're correct. Don't you find it sad then, that Palm who were the first ones to come up with this great idea, never really produced a great product with it?
Palm devices were a joke.
When the iPhone came out Colligan (Palm CEO) said "PC guys are not going to just figure this out. They're not going to just walk in". Well, they did.
And the WebOS, we know what happened there.

Edited 2013-02-20 09:34 UTC

Reply Score: 0

RE: Oh the dangers of History.
by Thom_Holwerda on Wed 20th Feb 2013 09:37 UTC in reply to "Oh the dangers of History."
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

That's a picture of the control panel of the Newton. This is what the Newton's home screen looked like:

http://admintell.napco.com/ee/images/uploads/appletell/_NEWTON_thum...

The Newton used a notebook metaphor, like PenPoint OS. A paradigm that nobody wanted.

Also, I never credited Palm with the invention of the mobile platform - don't put extremist words in my mouth just to make you look smart. I credit Palm with creating the mobile platform upon whose concepts and ideas all other platforms after it were built. Newton and PenPoint were dead ends - a metaphor nobody wanted and nobody bought. Palm's mobile platform was the first successful mobile platform, and showed the industry what people wanted out of a mobile device - everybody else has followed and built upon that platform ever since.

A sneak peak into my upcoming massive Palm article:

So, what is Palm OS' legacy? What mark did it leave? How did it influence the industry?

Palm OS showed the industry what a mobile operating system for the average consumer should look like, how it should work, and what it should - and more importantly, should not be capable of. Consumers didn't want MS-DOS with a stylus input overlay. Consumers didn't want the confusing notebook metaphor GO and Apple used. Consumers didn't want a desktop operating system's interface shoehorned into a small screen. Consumers didn't want to have to deal with managing multitasking and the associated complexity.

They wanted a minimalistic, single-tasking operating system that allowed them to focus on a single task, and do so fast, without having to wait for programs to load or go through endless confusing dialogs and setup screens. Users wanted an operating system with a graphical user interface that was designed specifically with its primary input method in mind. They wanted an operating system that didn't require all the manual fiddling that the desktop operating systems of Palm OS' day required. They wanted an operating system that didn't drain the battery in a few hours. Users wanted an application-centric device.

Add all of these together, and 15 years ago, you got Palm OS.


Edited 2013-02-20 09:40 UTC

Reply Score: 13

RE[2]: Oh the dangers of History.
by bowkota on Wed 20th Feb 2013 09:50 UTC in reply to "RE: Oh the dangers of History."
bowkota Member since:
2011-10-12

That's a picture of the control panel of the Newton. This is what the Newton's home screen looked like:

I think it was kind of obvious that it was the control panel, it was in the url. You were disputing historical facts and credibility about design. You could very easily argue that the Legencary Palm OS Home Screen (TM) was influenced by the Newton.

However, you're still missing the point. Apple's iOS and home screen has had been a phenomenal success and has had great influence on the current mobile market. Both the iPhone and the iPad were laughed on when released.
Look were we are today.
Were Apple designers/engineers influenced by Palm in the process? I'm pretty damn sure they were.

Edited 2013-02-20 09:51 UTC

Reply Score: 2

JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

Both the iPhone and the iPad were laughed on when released.

Where you out travelling the world for 2007? You forget that they were in the absolute minority. People laugh at anything that is new, as there are always these cynical sceptics.
Also iPhone did not take off before AppStore became available. And the current dominant platform follows an approach that is not like iOS(when it comes to homescreen organization).

Edited 2013-02-20 11:43 UTC

Reply Score: 6

HappyGod Member since:
2005-10-19

He's not missing the point. He's answering the point you raised. You provided the picture of the Newton in an attempt to challenge the claim that Palm invented the simplistic icon home screen.

You can't change the subject, just because you were mistaken.

Incidentally, who was laughing at Apple at the launch of the iPhone? The only entity I can think of was Microsoft, and they were bound to do that, because the iPhone was a competitor to their own WinMobile 6 phones.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Oh the dangers of History.
by MOS6510 on Wed 20th Feb 2013 11:11 UTC in reply to "RE: Oh the dangers of History."
MOS6510 Member since:
2011-05-12

It's not a Newton, it's a MessagePad. Newton is the name of the operating system, MessagePad is the name of the device that runs the Newton operating system.

Another device running the Newton OS is the eMate 300. It does have a home screen with a grid of icons. I have one right here.

The MessagePads also had icon grids to launch apps, but it defaulted to a notepad application when you turned it on. I have one right here.

I don't think it really matters what you see when you turn it on, Newton based devices and Palm devices all used icon grids to launch apps.

My Psion 3a uses a row of icons. If an app has user files they are listed under the app icon and can be opened directly from there.

It's not strange Apple went for this grid solution as it's easy to do, easy to use and the Macintosh in a way also had icon grids. Sure, you could move the icons and break the grid, but the basic idea was a screen with little icons that launch apps.

Reply Score: 7

henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

That's a picture of the control panel of the Newton. This is what the Newton's home screen looked like:


Hold on... as someone who actually owned a Newton Messagepad 120 and used it quite a lot, you are wrong. The NewtonOS had an app drawer where all of your installed apps lived. That is what looks identical to the earliest PalmOS devices. It was a tray with a grid of icons. Yes, the NewtonOS opened in the notepad app (because it was a "notepad", DOH!), but if you wanted to use any other apps installed (and the Newton had a pretty vibrant 3rd party app community at one point), you opened the app drawer and launched them from there. So, yes, the Newton "launcher" looks exactly like the PalmOS home screen. There you go. This doesn't even take in to account that later versions of the NewtonOS didn't even launch the notepad by default and instead showed you the launcher straight away (e.g. eMate 300.)

EDIT: Some could also argue that the way the Newton filtered the apps in to categories was wholesale stolen by Palm for PalmOS 3.0, because PalmOS 2.0 (and prior) sure as hell didn't do that, they instead scrolled (rather awkwardly) the launcher up/down to get to the app you wanted. I also owned (and still do) a Palm Pilot Pro, so I could probably even get pictures, if proof was required. I used to install third party launched on my PP just to be able to manage the mess that the launcher was in.

Edited 2013-02-20 12:59 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

The central point of interaction on the Newton was the notebook. That was its central metaphor. I have a 120 right here, and what you're referring to is the 'extras' folder - which contained a bunch of utilities like a calculator, and settings panels. It's a small aspect of the notebook metaphor - not a central one like it is on iOS or Palm OS. That's because NewtonOS is built around the notebook - not around applications. It's not application-centric.

It's a fundamentally different paradigm.

Yes, the eMate opened the drawer by default. This was after the success of the original Pilot.

Edited 2013-02-20 13:03 UTC

Reply Score: 3

henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

'extras' folder - which contained a bunch of utilities like a calculator and such.


And all other third party apps. The NewtonOS also categorised those apps (you could go in and choose which category they lived under), which PamlOS didn't do till PalmOS 3.0.

Yes, the eMate opened the drawer by default. This was after the success of the original Pilot.


Well, maybe the cynic in me sees the Palm Pilot and thinks "clever Palm, they took the Extra's folder idea from the Newton and ran with it - good on them." Because that is an absolutely valid angle to take. Just because you want to support your premise by dismissing a completely valid prior implementation (and no one here is claiming Apple invented that design, just that they used it before Palm) I think you're being very short sighted. For any user (e.g. me) who owned a Newton and *didn't* want to use the Notepad, the extras folder/app drawer was KEY to using the device, no matter what you claim to the contrary.

Edited 2013-02-20 13:07 UTC

Reply Score: 1

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

For any user (e.g. me) who owned a Newton and *didn't* want to use the Notepad, the extras folder/app drawer was KEY to using the device, no matter what you claim to the contrary.


Palm proved that this was valid for just about EVERY user. Nobody bought a Newton. It was a flop, for a variety of reasons: it was slow as shit, and the UI and its paradigm were complicated and cumbersome. Hawkins and Palm figured out what users really wanted (like you, they wanted an application-centric design), and we've been using that ever since because it was the right way to go.

On a sidenote, it's absolutely fascinating how just about every design and implementation consideration for Palm OS was focussed on speed. Lots fo cool stuff about that in the article.

Edited 2013-02-20 13:12 UTC

Reply Score: 2

henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

Palm proved that this was valid for just about EVERY user. Nobody bought a Newton. It was a flop, for a variety of reasons: it was slow as shit, and the UI and its paradigm were complicated and cumbersome. Hawkins and Palm figured out what users really wanted (like you, they wanted an application-centric design), and we've been using that ever since because it was the right way to go.


I don't disagree with any of that at all. I do think the NewtonOS was poorly executed on the original MessagePads (OMP, 110, 120 and 130.) It got a lot better and faster on the later models (the 1000 and what have you), though the eMate 300 went back to being underpowered *sigh* (though it was using the same CPU as most of the RISCOS machines, so it was more to do with power consumption and slowing down the clock rate of the CPU to not suck the batteries dry in 5 minutes, rather than actual horse power.)

The extras launcher should absolutely have been the primary view, but it wasn't. But then - it did exist, and people did use it all of the time. Unless you really believe no one ever used anything except the Notepad ;-)

Whether the Newton was popular or not, they are still sought after now and go for stupidly high prices. I sold mine after owning it for about 4 years for the exact same price I paid for it (used - something like £15.) I doubt I could sell a PalmOS 2.0 era device for more than £2 these days.

On a sidenote, it's absolutely fascinating how just about every design and implementation consideration for Palm OS was focussed on speed. Lots fo cool stuff about that in the article.


Yeah, I loved my Palm Pilot. It was a pleasure to use. I cut my teeth doing mobile dev using it. But it wasn't all rosy, and the Newton's "hidden" extras/app drawer was still miles ahead of the launcher in Palm OS 2.0.

Edited 2013-02-20 13:33 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Oh the dangers of History.
by steve_s on Wed 20th Feb 2013 18:13 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Oh the dangers of History."
steve_s Member since:
2006-01-16

Speaking as a former Newton developer, I'd disagree with your characterisation that Newton OS as not being application-centric and built around the notebook.

Newton OS was most definitely built around apps. Notepad was just the default app - later versions of the OS would let you swap that default to any other app. If you set Dates (for example) as the default app then Notepad would turn up in the Extras drawer and you could launch it from there.

The three main apps (Notepad, Dates, and Names) were all separate apps. The OS supported a 'windowed' view system, so Names would sit above other apps - and smaller 'utility' apps were not forced to run full-screen.

The OS was a highly dynamic object-oriented environment which would let third parties build extensions for the inbuilt apps. For example you could have extensions that would add new "stationary" types to the Notepad, or new card types to the Names app. All data was stored in "soups" - a dynamic OO database system. There was an OS-wide extensible "routing system" which was how you'd send emails, print, or fax - routing extensions were automatically made available in all apps.

In many ways it was a significantly more advanced OS than anything we have today. I often wonder what it would have developed into had it not been canned.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Oh the dangers of History.
by smashIt on Wed 20th Feb 2013 15:25 UTC in reply to "RE: Oh the dangers of History."
smashIt Member since:
2005-07-06

They wanted a minimalistic, single-tasking operating system that allowed them to focus on a single task, and do so fast, without having to wait for programs to load or go through endless confusing dialogs and setup screens. Users wanted an operating system with a graphical user interface that was designed specifically with its primary input method in mind.


you are ignoring psion
there definitely was a huge market for multitasking devices

Reply Score: 3

RE: Oh the dangers of History.
by MOS6510 on Wed 20th Feb 2013 11:21 UTC in reply to "Oh the dangers of History."
MOS6510 Member since:
2011-05-12

I liked Palm devices. They were great to play Hearts on when traveling by train.

Over time they became better and worse. The OS became better, as did the hardware, but the feeling increased it could and perhaps should have been better. This feeling was fed by competing products, like the Windows CE and Symbian powered devices.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Oh the dangers of History.
by JAlexoid on Wed 20th Feb 2013 11:29 UTC in reply to "Oh the dangers of History."
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

And since when is iOS home screen is simple? It's much more complex as a whole, than any other platform.

Icons that change(and some don't - calendar vs weather) and the notification bubbles are not simple.

Reply Score: 2

henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

Errrr... yes they are with more than a days usage, I guarantee you'll understand them.

Reply Score: 1

JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

Kind of defeats the claim of simplicity.

Reply Score: 1

henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

Not really. I guarantee *you*, most others get it right away ;-)

Reply Score: 1

ilovebeer Member since:
2011-08-08

Not really. I guarantee *you*, most others get it right away ;-)

I agree with you completely. I've never heard anyone refer to the iOS homescreen as anything other than simple & easy to understand. I know someone with a 3 year old who navigates the screens to find her Zoodles game, the camera, and the photo library no problem. Additionally I know a few elderly people who are just about the opposite of tech-savvy that seem to manage just fine as well. I would expect otherwise if the UI was anything but simple.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Oh the dangers of History.
by Morgan on Thu 21st Feb 2013 11:30 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Oh the dangers of History."
Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

This is intentional. Apple designs simultaneously for the Luddites and the tech savvy, because those two extremes are their target audience. My boss at the sheriff's office is a technological neophyte (despite, ironically enough, being in charge of a data processing department) yet within a day of owning an iPad mini she had the majority of its functionality down.

When I briefly had an iPad (now owned by my fiancée) I was using it to ssh into my home server, create real music with GarageBand, and write parts of my novel with a $5 app that rivaled the excellent Scrivener for Mac.

My point being, it was just as easy for my clueless boss to pick up and use as it was for me, a ravenous consumer of all things tech. That's the beauty of Apple's design philosophy and also the source of a lot of the ridicule they suffer: Nearly anyone can pick up an Apple product and figure it out within minutes.

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: Oh the dangers of History.
by zima on Sat 23rd Feb 2013 00:50 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Oh the dangers of History."
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

a $5 app that rivaled the excellent Scrivener for Mac

??

Reply Score: 2

RE: Oh the dangers of History.
by BallmerKnowsBest on Wed 20th Feb 2013 17:46 UTC in reply to "Oh the dangers of History."
BallmerKnowsBest Member since:
2008-06-02

This is a picture of the Newton OS (which predates the Palm OS):
http://www.guidebookgallery.org/pics/gui/extra/newton/controlpanel....

I'm pretty sure can find something that predates that and maybe something else that predates that etc.


...then why bother?

Regardless, you've credited Palm countless time with the "invention"(?) of the mobile platform.


They are within the framework of Apple fanboy logic, where "popularise" == "invent". Devices running the Newton OSes don't count because they were spectacular failures as commercial products, and the fact that Newton devices were unpopular automatically means that they were crap. And obviously Palm wouldn't have taken inspiration from a pathetic failure like Newton, so all of PalmOS' features must have been created completely-independently & any similarity with Newton is clearly just a coincidence.

I could spell out the joke there, but I think it will be much more entertaining to watch iFanbois take that statement and argue against it.

Let's assume you're correct. Don't you find it sad then, that Palm who were the first ones to come up with this great idea, never really produced a great product with it?
Palm devices were a joke.


Not nearly as sad as the fact iOS is still playing catch up... to the old PalmOS, half a decade after it was discontinued. Sad in a pathetic kind of way, that is.

When the iPhone came out Colligan (Palm CEO) said "PC guys are not going to just figure this out. They're not going to just walk in". Well, they did.


Seriously? Never heard the expression about stones and glass houses, I take it... which reminds me, have you and the rest of the Apple Defense Brigade figured out how to rationalize-away Apple's flip-flop over 7" tablets? Or are you just using the strategy of "if we never bring it up, then maybe people will just forget"?

And the WebOS, we know what happened there.


Yes, it was superior to iOS in every way (except to the "durrrr, there's an app for that, durrrr" chimps) & only lost out because it was developed by a company that was already circling the drain, then sold to a company managed by special education drop-outs.

But hey, I hear webOS is Open Sores now. Maybe Apple could warm over the remains and then take credit for it, just like they did with the corpse of NeXT. They could call it "iOS Pro"...

Reply Score: 3

henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

They are within the framework of Apple fanboy logic, where "popularise" == "invent".


No, no, no. "invent" == "innovate" in your usage. Please look up the difference if you are unaware. If you listen to any Apple keynote or read Apple Propaganda/copy, they never claim to "invent" anything there is a definite prior art for. I'd go as far as saying they never use the word "invent", but I can't be 100% sure about that, so I won't make up facts.

Devices running the Newton OSes don't count because they were spectacular failures as commercial products


If that was true, a lot of later Palm devices (i.e. most of the late Garnet and almost all of the WebOS) are also in that category. As are most of the early Microsoft Windows CE devices and the later 6.5 ones, and all of the Windows Phone 7 and even all the Meego based phones (and the other Maemo devices.) In fact, there are plenty of devices that exist today in a cult like status, even though they were extremely unpopular at the time of manufacture (Vectrex, NeoGeo MVS both spring to mind, and the PCEngine/TurboGrafx in Europe - as it was never released here.)


and the fact that Newton devices were unpopular automatically means that they were crap. And obviously Palm wouldn't have taken inspiration from a pathetic failure like Newton, so all of PalmOS' features must have been created completely-independently & any similarity with Newton is clearly just a coincidence.


I dunno. The Newton reached cult status, and when I was on the "scene", there was still a lot of development going on (maybe 4 or 5 years ago) and the later Newtons were going for stupid money ($200+ for a 10 year old PDA is pretty ridiculous.)

Not nearly as sad as the fact iOS is still playing catch up... to the old PalmOS, half a decade after it was discontinued. Sad in a pathetic kind of way, that is.


I'm not sure they are.

.... figured out how to rationalize-away Apple's flip-flop over 7" tablets? Or are you just using the strategy of "if we never bring it up, then maybe people will just forget"?


Humans are fallible. I guess "Android first", "GoogleTV everwhere" and "Windows Phone dominating", or really anything else out of Balmer's mouth in interviews, proves all of that.

Yes, it was superior to iOS in every way (except to the "durrrr, there's an app for that, durrrr" chimps) & only lost out because it was developed by a company that was already circling the drain, then sold to a company managed by special education drop-outs.


Sorry, no it wasn't. The API was cute, but it was hard to write any real apps for until they released a native SDK, because with all the will in the world, native without native you can't leverage all of the third party libraries available and make performance king.

But hey, I hear webOS is Open Sores now. Maybe Apple could warm over the remains and then take credit for it, just like they did with the corpse of NeXT. They could call it "iOS Pro"...


*sigh* Flame bait aside, WebOS is a slow OS that requires quite fast hardware and a lot of optimisation to run well. The fact that the Palm guys proved this by porting the WebOS tablet stack to iOS and making it run "better" was pretty telling. Basically, you completely missed the *real* reason Palm failed with WebOS, and the reason they would have failed again - even if another company had bought them. Their initial hardware was slow and underpowered. There you go.

The sad thing is that you don't even seem to understand what happened with Nextstep and Openstep. It's still alive and well. It runs on ARM and PC, as well as PowerPC. It's now called Mac OS X and iOS. It's the same underlying OS, same underlying API's and well, had Apple not bought Next Inc, it would be a largely forgotten now.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Oh the dangers of History.
by zima on Sat 23rd Feb 2013 00:48 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Oh the dangers of History."
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Nextstep and Openstep. It's still alive and well. It runs on ARM and PC, as well as PowerPC. It's now called Mac OS X and iOS. It's the same underlying OS, same underlying API's and well, had Apple not bought Next Inc, it would be a largely forgotten now.

I think Nextstep is largely forgotten - only us ~geeks know it morphed into OSX.

Had Apple not bought Next Inc, ~geeks would still remember it (by the virtue of www being bootstrapped on a Nextcube)

Reply Score: 2

What?
by darknexus on Wed 20th Feb 2013 09:35 UTC
darknexus
Member since:
2008-07-15

The springboard is one of the things that annoys me the most about iOS. It takes simplicity too far, having each app be its own icon and all apps forced to appear there. I've got a lot of apps installed and the most irritating thing about the home screen is having to remember: ok, now what page is that app on? This is one area that I think Android (even with stock launcher) did much better. The home screen is where your most commonly used apps go (old style Windows desktop, anyone?) and you can pull down an apps list to get the rest. Much simpler.
And yes, I know about spotlight search, but having to type in part of the name of an app I'm looking for isn't exactly the most productive way to go on a device with a 4-inch screen.

Reply Score: 7

v RE: What?
by terra on Wed 20th Feb 2013 10:27 UTC in reply to "What?"
RE[2]: What?
by darknexus on Wed 20th Feb 2013 11:34 UTC in reply to "RE: What?"
darknexus Member since:
2008-07-15

Wow, learn to write and actually debate without personal insults before posting, please. Now, let me explain something. It's not the most frequently used apps that are a pain to find, it's those that I use less frequently but still do use. I do not remember what page I put every app (or folder) on, thank you. Now, I use an iPhone as my only phone as well as an iPad, and I'd bet I know just a little bit more about iOS than most. Here's where Android shines though: I know the name of the app that's not on my home screen, so I open the apps list and find it in an alphabetical list. That is simplicity. With iOS, what do I do? I can either browse through each page of apps and folders to find it (tedious), open spotlight search (kind of bothersome on a small device) or I can reset the home screen to force all entries into alphabetical order. There's just one problem with that approach though, I lose my most frequent apps on page one, because all the default apps get put back there when you use this option. So explain to me again, how the iOS approach is superior? This time, you may use complete sentences.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: What?
by Morgan on Thu 21st Feb 2013 11:34 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: What?"
Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

I think this is one of my biggest gripes with the iOS interface too. At my part time job I was trying to configure a coworker's iPhone to access our server remotely, and I couldn't find the Settings app icon to save my life. I handed it back to her to see if she could find it for me, and it even took her about thirty seconds. And she uses the device all day every day!

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: What?
by henderson101 on Thu 21st Feb 2013 16:00 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: What?"
henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

Swipe left, type "settings" in to the search field. Unless the user has gone in and specifically turned off indexing (it's on by default) a few milliseconds later - you will have the settings app listed. Top tip, probably verging on power user, but well worth remembering.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: What?
by Morgan on Thu 21st Feb 2013 20:41 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: What?"
Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

That might have been her next step if we hadn't found it (buried in a folder labeled "Useless Stuff", by the way!), but I have never had more than a handful of apps on an iDevice so it never even occurred to me.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: What?
by henderson101 on Sat 23rd Feb 2013 01:59 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: What?"
henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

I use it more on my iPad, as that has 64GB of storage, and it's much easier to install an app and misplace it. On my Phone, I tend to delete stuff I don't use and only reinstall when needed. I also don't put settings in a folder marked "useless stuff".. ;-)

Reply Score: 2

RE: What?
by lustyd on Wed 20th Feb 2013 10:40 UTC in reply to "What?"
lustyd Member since:
2008-06-19

Why not use folders like the rest of us in iOS do? Put your folders on page 2 and your most used apps on page 1.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: What?
by JAlexoid on Wed 20th Feb 2013 11:41 UTC in reply to "RE: What?"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

Wasn't iOS supposed to be "effortless"?

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: What?
by henderson101 on Thu 21st Feb 2013 10:34 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: What?"
henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

Do you ever tire of replying with the same clueless attitude?

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: What?
by dnebdal on Thu 21st Feb 2013 17:29 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: What?"
dnebdal Member since:
2008-08-27

Eh, he has a point. Managing app placements and folders on iOS is arguably more work than the android solution, especially if you have a lot of installed apps..

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: What?
by henderson101 on Sat 23rd Feb 2013 02:10 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: What?"
henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

Eh, he has a point. Managing app placements and folders on iOS is arguably more work than the android solution, especially if you have a lot of installed apps..


Stock Android (as in, what is on a Nexus device, such as a Nexus 7), is just as much work. Except, you potentially have 2 icons to deal with - the one in the app tray (which can't be physically moved, but you must delete to uninstall the app from the launcher) and the one that gets thrown on to the home screen when you install an app from the Play store (that you can manage a lot like iOS.) However, the icon on the home screen is just a short cut (though nothing visually tells you that) and you can delete it without affecting the app int the app tray. I'm sorry, that's just disjointed. Either let me put the app on the home screen, or the app tray - both is overkill. And the fact that the stock 4.2 app tray is in alphabetical order and doesn't appear to allow any other type of sorting is more than a little annoying. It turns in to a soup, especially when there are a lot of apps installed. Scanning through the pages to find a specific app is laborious, so I fond myself resorting to the iOS approach of putting the shortcuts on the my home screen. But then I do that with Windows too - I have about 30+ icons to various apps on my desktop. I really don't see that Android is any improvement over iOS - both have a fundamental flaw in the way they manage a pile of icons. For me, iOS wins because it's most like PalmOS, and PalmOS was where I started with PDA's (though I have also owned a MessagePad 120 as noted above, that was much later.)

Reply Score: 2

To be fair
by deathshadow on Wed 20th Feb 2013 09:49 UTC
deathshadow
Member since:
2005-07-12

Rewriting history and their importance in it has been a Apple hallmark since the mid '80's...

Reply Score: 22

RE: To be fair
by MOS6510 on Wed 20th Feb 2013 11:31 UTC in reply to "To be fair"
MOS6510 Member since:
2011-05-12

Apple didn't rewrite this event, John Gruber made a remark that was interpreted by Thom as being such a thing.

Gruber doesn't state that Apple invented this type of home screen, he calls in an innovation and not an Apple invention.

When comparing the iOS home screen to the home screen from Thom's link you'll notice the iOS one is simpler.

Don't forget we've moved on from a rather "simple" time to a far more advanced one, yet Apple managed to not only keep their home screen simple, they apparently made it even simpler than Palm's as proven by Thom.

With regards to Apple rewriting history: they present us with stuff they call amazing, magical, blah blah. Then you have people that compare it with previous stuff of other companies and when they find a match, sometimes a very good one, sometimes a rather fat fetched one, they claim Apple rewrites history.

They don't claim to have invented the desktop GUI, mobile phones or tablets. They brought it main stream or put a different more successful twist on it.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: To be fair
by Thom_Holwerda on Wed 20th Feb 2013 11:42 UTC in reply to "RE: To be fair"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

When comparing the iOS home screen to the home screen from Thom's link you'll notice the iOS one is simpler.


It really isn't. You clearly never had to explain to people how to move icons around, how to create and un-create folders, and so on. The iOS home screen has lots of unintuitive and hard-to-find things that ought to be simpler to perform.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: To be fair
by MOS6510 on Wed 20th Feb 2013 11:48 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: To be fair"
MOS6510 Member since:
2011-05-12

What is your suggestion to make it easier to move icons around and create folders?

Besides, these are optional things. You don't have to perform them to use iOS, ever. Yes, if you know how to do it it will probably make operating your iOS more convenient, but it's not mandatory.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: To be fair
by Thom_Holwerda on Wed 20th Feb 2013 11:52 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: To be fair"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Besides, these are optional things. You don't have to perform them to use iOS, ever. Yes, if you know how to do it it will probably make operating your iOS more convenient, but it's not mandatory.


That's the problem of it. It happens accidentally all the time. I've had to help COUNTLESS people whose applications had suddenly moved around, whose homescreen wouldn't stop jiggling, whose applications were suddenly small and in a square, who didn't know how to remove shit, and so on.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: To be fair
by JAlexoid on Wed 20th Feb 2013 11:55 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: To be fair"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

Ooohhh.... "I'm out of space on my iPhone!" Is the one that I like the best.

Reply Score: 5

v RE[5]: To be fair
by MOS6510 on Wed 20th Feb 2013 12:01 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: To be fair"
RE[6]: To be fair
by henderson101 on Wed 20th Feb 2013 13:12 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: To be fair"
henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

My 7 year old can do it also. And as the same method works on Android, the skill is now transferable.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: To be fair
by JAlexoid on Wed 20th Feb 2013 13:20 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: To be fair"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

7 y/o are the worst examples. They are not afraid to experiment and will understand modern technology faster than you can blink.

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: To be fair
by MOS6510 on Wed 20th Feb 2013 13:27 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: To be fair"
MOS6510 Member since:
2011-05-12

Which skill? The moving of icons and creating of folders or stealing your dad's games and ruining your game progress? :-p

If Apple doesn't come up with a way to share an iPad with multiple users, which I'm sure happens a lot within families, I'll have to buy my son one.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: To be fair
by JAlexoid on Wed 20th Feb 2013 11:48 UTC in reply to "RE: To be fair"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

When comparing the iOS home screen to the home screen from Thom's link you'll notice the iOS one is simpler.

Are you sure about that? Bubbles, folders and changing icons don't exist in iOS?

It's not Apple to rewrite history, it was one person in particular. You know, the one that "invented multitouch".

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: To be fair
by MOS6510 on Wed 20th Feb 2013 11:55 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: To be fair"
MOS6510 Member since:
2011-05-12

Bubbles, unless it's a game that features Michael Jackon's monkey, are not in iOS as far as I know. You can't change icons. Apps can change them though, but it's not like they change them in to something completely different causing confusion for the user.

Folders are in iOS, but they are optional. You don't have to acquire this skill to operate an iOS device.

I have a lot of experience using Palm and iOS devices. On the easy-to-hard scale of usability I would rate them very close to each other, but to me the iOS screen looks more simple.

If you have learned to use one I'm pretty sure you have no problem using the other. iOS does have more things you can do, most not mandatory to use the device, but they are easily learned.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: To be fair
by JAlexoid on Wed 20th Feb 2013 12:01 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: To be fair"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

Bubbles, unless it's a game that features Michael Jackon's monkey, are not in iOS as far as I know.

You don't know what are notification bubbles? Are you sure you own an iOS device?

You can't change icons. Apps can change them though, but it's not like they change them in to something completely different causing confusion for the user.

Waaaayyy to contradict yourself, dude.

iOS screen looks more simple

Looks vs operates, are two different things.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: To be fair
by MOS6510 on Wed 20th Feb 2013 12:12 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: To be fair"
MOS6510 Member since:
2011-05-12


You don't know what are notification bubbles? Are you sure you own an iOS device?


Ah, notifications. I guess you're a Windows user and call those balloons bubbles.

Yes, I do own iOS devices and they do show me notifications, but I've never had the urge to call them "bubbles", because they don't look like bubbles.

"You can't change icons. Apps can change them though, but it's not like they change them in to something completely different causing confusion for the user.

Waaaayyy to contradict yourself, dude.
"

I see no contradiction. Reading your other comments attached to this story it seems you get confused by the calendar app showing the current date while the weather app launches the weather app.


"iOS screen looks more simple

Looks vs operates, are two different things.
" [/q]

I have a number of iOS and Palm devices. You turn them on, they show icons, you press an icon, the app starts. iOS can do more, but you don't need to have this knowledge to use the device. Never mind all those extra's, the real functionality is with the applications. Take those away and the device becomes pretty useless. The iOS extras are easy to learn and there aren't that many.

IMHO the iOS screen looks more simple than the Palm one. Not that the Palm one is difficult to understand, it's quite simple too and that's a good thing.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: To be fair
by JAlexoid on Wed 20th Feb 2013 13:12 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: To be fair"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

because they don't look like bubbles


Really!?!?!?!

Bubble:
http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs46/f/2009/232/9/8/Blue_Bubble_by_hallv...

Balloon:
http://www.csballoon.com/img/purplemet_balloon.jpg

iOS icons with "those" - do they look like ballons or bubbles?
http://i.stack.imgur.com/EQsS5.jpg


I see no contradiction.

Well... Maybe can and can't mean the same in your head.

Reading your other comments attached to this story it seems you get confused by the calendar app showing the current date while the weather app launches the weather app.

The operation of both contradict your claim of simplicity. Both show a number. Both numbers mean the content of the app, not part of the logo. One number does not change the other does. You get used to it(like I did), but people get used to SAP Legacy Workbench as well.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: To be fair
by henderson101 on Wed 20th Feb 2013 13:19 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: To be fair"
henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

No, they aren't "bubbles", nor are they called "bubbles" by Apple in English. They are called "badges" by Apple and any Apple developer worth half their salt.

The concept isn't even hard to understand - "you have X amount of items that you have yet to look at". So for Mail, that is emails. For Calendar that is new appointments. For Messages that is sms/imessage. For other apps, it depends on what the developer is trying to convey - but generally it's going to be "items I have synced for you in some way shape or form."

Edited 2013-02-20 13:21 UTC

Reply Score: 0

RE[7]: To be fair
by MOS6510 on Wed 20th Feb 2013 13:20 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: To be fair"
MOS6510 Member since:
2011-05-12

I think the problem is that you have no iOS experience. Those "bubbled" numbers are called (notification) badges, the informational messages that appear at the top of the screen are called notifications and can also be found in the notification center. IIRC it's the same with Android. Well, Android borrowed the badges, iOS borrowed the notifications.

Personally I don't think these feature should cause any confusing, certainly not on the long term and users prefer to have them.

Neither the badges or the notifications change the icon grid in such a way that people are not able to launch their favorite apps.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: To be fair
by pandronic on Thu 21st Feb 2013 12:41 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: To be fair"
pandronic Member since:
2006-05-18

You don't have to acquire this skill to operate an iOS device.


I'm confused. You think that's a good thing or a bad thing?

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: To be fair
by MOS6510 on Thu 21st Feb 2013 12:44 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: To be fair"
MOS6510 Member since:
2011-05-12

I think it's a good thing.

It's good if you are almost instantly able to operate a device and as time progresses learn the more advanced features.

I guess it's even a must these days as manuals are rare and if you find a very brief one most people don't even bother reading it. People expect that they are able to use something at once.

Reply Score: 2

RE: To be fair
by darknexus on Wed 20th Feb 2013 11:36 UTC in reply to "To be fair"
darknexus Member since:
2008-07-15

Actually we can take that a lot further: Rewriting history has been the practice of every corporation or governmental body since written history was invented. The reason we say that history is written by the victorious is because it's true.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by ccadete
by ccadete on Wed 20th Feb 2013 11:31 UTC
ccadete
Member since:
2013-02-20

Until Apple comes up with something else, then that will be the bestest most innovative mobile OS ever.

Why people still give any thought (and traffic) to what fanboys like these say is beyond me.

Edited 2013-02-20 11:32 UTC

Reply Score: 5

RE: Comment by ccadete
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Wed 20th Feb 2013 17:44 UTC in reply to "Comment by ccadete"
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

Yeah. Exactly this. The original iphone screen size was the optimal screen size, until it wasn't. PowerPC chips were always faster than intel, until they switched. Third party apps were a terrible idea, until the appstore.

Reply Score: 6

Innovation is a buzzword
by internetionals on Wed 20th Feb 2013 12:03 UTC
internetionals
Member since:
2008-08-02

It's not "innovation" when all you do is stay minimalistic, it's called "restraint".

Minimalistic doesn't infer simplicity neither does simplicity infer minimalistic. It's just that it's harder for a minimalistic thing to not by simple, but too often it's not.

Reply Score: 2

Can simplicity be patented?
by twitterfire on Wed 20th Feb 2013 13:53 UTC
twitterfire
Member since:
2008-09-11

Can it?

Reply Score: 2

Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

The abstract concept of simplicity?
No, probably not.

A specific invention that works in a simple manner compared to previous inventions in the same field?

Yes, as long as it meets all of the other requirements ( no business process, no prior art, etc).

As everyone else has raised in the other comments, apple was not the first to create this kind of an interface, so it should not be patent-able.

Reply Score: 2

What a coincidence!?
by Shkaba on Wed 20th Feb 2013 17:34 UTC
Shkaba
Member since:
2006-06-22

I had just gotten a Nexus 4 and had to give it up (boss wanted it) so while I am awaiting for another one to make its way I have to use a spare iphone 4s. There is only one word to describe ios: CLUTTER. Utter and complete mess of the home screen. And you have to spend a good deal of time to make it usable (as per my specs). It definitively is not a device for me. I want to have a clean and empty home screen with very few shortcuts (phone, email, messaging and maybe time). Everything else should be tucked away in an organized location. Remember everyone complaining about bloatware in windows? ios reminded me of that. Disgusting!

Reply Score: 2

RE: What a coincidence!?
by henderson101 on Thu 21st Feb 2013 16:10 UTC in reply to "What a coincidence!?"
henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

By default (as in Factory fresh) there are only about 17 icons on the home screen. All of which are easily movable. Lets compare to Android 4.2: Every app installed ends up with 2 icons (one on the desktop, on in the app tray) and deleting the icon from the desktop doesn't delete the app from the device (or even ask if that is what you meant.) That's fine if you understand that's the way it works, but not if you are a novice (or plain stupid as some other commenters have implied they are when it comes to iOS.)

Let's then look at the app tray... how is that is any kind of order by default? New apps seem to randomly appear in the list (is it sorted in some specific order? I don't know, I've never really taken time to look). Can you sort the icons? (Never tried.) It's extremely unwieldy and confusing. Even the UI on the Skinned Android Samsung devices my kids have does a better job of arranging the installed apps that stock Android.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: What a coincidence!?
by Shkaba on Thu 21st Feb 2013 16:52 UTC in reply to "RE: What a coincidence!?"
Shkaba Member since:
2006-06-22

By default (as in Factory fresh) there are only about 17 icons on the home screen. All of which are easily movable.

17 is way too much! Like I stated I prefer to have only shortcuts for core functions (phone, email, messaging). As for easily movable ... easy movable where? on another home screen? Is that your idea of clean and organized ... it is not to me. Creating folders just to get rid of that mess worked to some extend but not for all of them (f... newstand! not only you can't get rid of it, it has an ugly icon, too)

Lets compare to Android 4.2: Every app installed ends up with 2 icons (one on the desktop, on in the app tray) and deleting the icon from the desktop doesn't delete the app from the device (or even ask if that is what you meant.) That's fine if you understand that's the way it works, but not if you are a novice (or plain stupid as some other commenters have implied they are when it comes to iOS.)


Strange, but to me that is exactly how it should be. Very similar to notions that have been established in PC-s. Desktop shortcuts are, well ....shortcuts to the app and not the app itself. Everything else is confusing.

Let's then look at the app tray... how is that is any kind of order by default? New apps seem to randomly appear in the list (is it sorted in some specific order? I don't know, I've never really taken time to look). Can you sort the icons? (Never tried.) It's extremely unwieldy and confusing. Even the UI on the Skinned Android Samsung devices my kids have does a better job of arranging the installed apps that stock Android.


I guess I will this one to you to figure out, just like I had to waste couple of hours to get to somewhat clean home screen on my temp iphone.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: What a coincidence!?
by phoenix on Thu 21st Feb 2013 18:26 UTC in reply to "RE: What a coincidence!?"
phoenix Member since:
2005-07-11

By default (as in Factory fresh) there are only about 17 icons on the home screen. All of which are easily movable.


Stock Android 4.2 has less than 10 icons on the home screen, and 5 of those are in the dock so appear on every screen.

Lets compare to Android 4.2: Every app installed ends up with 2 icons


Nope. Every app has 1 icon, in the app drawer. You have the option of copying icons from there to whichever home screen you want. Or, you can just leave them all in the app drawer and have blank home screens.

icon from the desktop doesn't delete the app from the device (or even ask if that is what you meant.)


Depends on the launcher. For example, a long-press of a home screen icon in Go Launcher Ex gives you the option to:
- change the icon
- delete the icon from the home screen
- uninstall the app

Let's then look at the app tray... how is that is any kind of order by default?


Alphabetical by default. Again, depending on the Launcher used, you can change the sort order, choosing between options like:
- alphabetical
- order installed (newest first)
- order installed (oldest first)
- most often used first

New apps seem to randomly appear in the list (is it sorted in some specific order?


New apps either appear in the list according to the sort order you selected, or at the very end of the list. Either way, they get a "new" badge attached so you can find them right away.

It's extremely unwieldy and confusing.


Seriously? You find an alphabetical list of icons (Android) to be confusing, but a random listing of icons (iOS) to be sublime?

Even the UI on the Skinned Android Samsung devices my kids have does a better job of arranging the installed apps that stock Android.


Me thinks you haven't actually used Stock Android 4.2.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: What a coincidence!?
by henderson101 on Fri 22nd Feb 2013 16:03 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: What a coincidence!?"
henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

"By default (as in Factory fresh) there are only about 17 icons on the home screen. All of which are easily movable.


Stock Android 4.2 has less than 10 icons on the home screen, and 5 of those are in the dock so appear on every screen.
"

As well as a load of giant widgets.

" Lets compare to Android 4.2: Every app installed ends up with 2 icons


Nope. Every app has 1 icon, in the app drawer. You have the option of copying icons from there to whichever home screen you want. Or, you can just leave them all in the app drawer and have blank home screens.
"

No, sorry - that is incorrect. If one installs an app using the Play store, one gets one icon on the Desktop and one icon in the app list/tray. This is on a Nexus 7, up to date, running 4.2.Whatever the current release is. It updated about a week or so ago.

"icon from the desktop doesn't delete the app from the device (or even ask if that is what you meant.)


Depends on the launcher.
"

The stock Android launcher. You understand we are talking about *stock* Android, right? ;-)


For example, a {..delete pointless babble about non-Stock launchers..}


Please read and understand the complaint before replying.

"Let's then look at the app tray... how is that is any kind of order by default?


Alphabetical by default. {..deleted rambling mutterings about non-stock launchers...}
"

I might actually look tonight. I know that as a casual user who didn't really pay much attention, it wasn't the order I was expecting (installation order), nor did it make much sense. I'll admit I really didn't bother looking in to it any further and just accepted that I'd need to scan through the icons to find the app I was looking for. Because, really, I work that way - I look for the icon, I don't read the text on every app. I think that might just be the way my brain works (visual images are more important than words.)

Either way, they get a "new" badge attached so you can find them right away.


On the stock 4.2 that is installed on the Nexus 7? Now I know you have never used a Nexus 7. This does *not* happen, you don't gat any kind of indication that the app is "new" (unless that happened in the very last update, as I'm pretty sure I've not installed anything since then.) It does, however, happen in iOS 6.0 though.

Seriously? You find an alphabetical list of icons (Android) to be confusing, but a random listing of icons (iOS) to be sublime?


Yes. Because iOS shows the apps in order of installation (if you let the screens naturally fill up) or at the next gap in your "home screens". Again, I look for the icon, not the name of the app (being visually orientated, not textually orientated), so why would alphabetical be of any use to me? Also, in all versions of iOS up to 6.0, the app store closed at point of installation, and zoomed to the page with the new app. This would have a progress bar as part of the install process. It made it bloody obvious what was going on. Now in 6.x, the app downloads inside the app store app as well as on the home screens, and the app store doesn't close. But then each new app has a "new" badge on the home screen till first launch and the app store has an "open" button when the install has completed, so again, it's not exactly rocket science.

"Even the UI on the Skinned Android Samsung devices my kids have does a better job of arranging the installed apps that stock Android.


Me thinks you haven't actually used Stock Android 4.2.
"

Yes I have. It's well documented that I own a Nexus 7 on these forums, go ahead and search if you want proof. It's got a lot better with the last release or two, but it can still be really unstable (mine has rebooted twice randomly since the last update, usually when my kids had left a lot of apps running in their accounts) and so I still only really use it for Youtube and brief web browsing. My kids use it more than me (and now they all have their own accounts on it, so I don't need to worry as much about them messing with my account.) So, nope, wrong. If your phone/tables running is running a stock Android (as supplied directly from Google, with no enhancements or changes) has the extra features you claim with the stock install and launcher - lucky you, but it only goes to prove that a constant user experience is not given across all Android devices, even running stock images supplied by Google directly.

Reply Score: 2

BallmerKnowsBest
Member since:
2008-06-02

I'm seriously starting to think that Poe's Law should be renamed Gruber's Law.

Initial reaction before reading TFA: bullshit, that's not an Apple innovation even in the loosest sense of the term. Take the text-based menu from DOS-based Novell networks (or welcome menu from any old BBS), replace the text labels with icons & use touch instead of the arrow key to activate options, and you have the iOS home screen. Hell, I've got an old PC kicking around somewhere with GEOS/GeoWorks installed on it, which boots to a screen showing... a simple grid of icons that represent "apps" - and that thing's so old that it has a 286 CPU & the CMOS uses a AA battery pack.

Reaction after reading TFA: yep, about what I expected. Also, the Grube' makes the common mistake of treating "less is more" as an absolute - the mere lack of features is not a compelling feature in and of itself (if it were, people would still be using AOL).

Quoth the Grube':

"It’s the simplest, most obvious 'system' ever designed."

I might take that seriously, if it weren't for the dozens of times that friends/relatives/etc have brought me their iProduct in a panic, because they somehow made all of their icons start jumping around like caffeinated Chihuahuas and can't figure out how to make it stop.

Reply Score: 4

Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

Do you remember AOL? Its problem wasn't a lack of features.

Even though I'm not a fan of Windows phone, It seems like its a great deal simpler and more obvious how to get and use information than the static icons of ios.

Reply Score: 2

BallmerKnowsBest Member since:
2008-06-02

Do you remember AOL?


Despite my best efforts, yes. And now that I think about it, the iOS home screen is very reminiscent of the welcome screen from old versions of AOL, E.g.

http://codinghorror.typepad.com/.a/6a0120a85dcdae970b012877705ba497...

Its problem wasn't a lack of features.


Do you remember AOL? To pick one random example, it's mail client couldn't even display the "From" name for incoming messages, and just showed the address instead - and it wasn't capable of setting a "From" name for outgoing messages either. Even Pegasus Mail for DOS had that functionality.

Lack of features may not have been the problem that ultimately killed AOL as an ISP, but it certainly was a problem. Hell, even AOL themselves released released standalone applications that had more features than the equivalent functionality in the AOL client (E.g. AIM).

Reply Score: 4

henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

"Do you remember AOL?


Despite my best efforts, yes. And now that I think about it, the iOS home screen is very reminiscent of the welcome screen from old versions of AOL, E.g.

http://codinghorror.typepad.com/.a/6a0120a85dcdae970b012877705ba497...
"

No it's not. That looks more like Windows Phone 7/8 and Windows 8.

Reply Score: 2

What Innovation?
by Lorin on Thu 21st Feb 2013 05:18 UTC
Lorin
Member since:
2010-04-06

The one that has existed since before the Palm days?

Reply Score: 2

RE: What Innovation?
by henderson101 on Thu 21st Feb 2013 10:41 UTC in reply to "What Innovation?"
henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

The one that has existed since before the Palm days?


One could argue that the Psion 3a had a fairly icon/text in a grid style layout (if one was going to be very pedantic.) But the icons in a Window was what Mac OS was doing in 1984, so who copied whom? I'm guessing Xerox possibly had something similar? It depends where you decide innovation and design originate in this specific area.

Reply Score: 3

Breaking News Apple Rips off IBM
by phoehne on Thu 21st Feb 2013 20:17 UTC
phoehne
Member since:
2006-08-26

In 2001, IBM Research had a "smart watch" based on Linux. So Apple MUST be ripping off IBM. They OBVIOUSLY had the idea 12 years before Apple! Or maybe they're ripping of Dick Tracy? In any case, Apple did something that most companies fail to do and that is to move toward simplicity. The tendency most people have is to overthink use cases and stick all sorts of crap on the screen. So I look at it as very much a zig to the conventional zag that other companies are copying to a degree.

Reply Score: 1

henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

And Nokia/Motorola ripped off Star Trek with their flip phones.... :-)

Reply Score: 1