Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 26th Feb 2013 21:50 UTC
PDAs, Cellphones, Wireless "Huge swathes of the interface are remarkable only by their familiarity: a home screen with a grid of apps; a single navigation button to take you back to this screen or alternatively to a multi-tasking screen by way of a long press; and a top-to-bottom pull-down for notifications and quick access to settings. It's basic, but it represents pretty much what all these new operating systems are supposed to be: ways of getting functionality that is at least close to Android but without all the licensing costs associated with running Google services." A lobotomised iOS/Android mashup. This is completely void of personality. Still, it looks like this is Samsung's future (guess who was wrong).
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And who was right?
by przemo_li on Tue 26th Feb 2013 22:38 UTC
przemo_li
Member since:
2010-06-01
RE: And who was right?
by Nelson on Tue 26th Feb 2013 23:39 UTC in reply to "And who was right?"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Windows Phone 8 can already hit every price point that Bada ever hit, and is rapidly moving even further downward -- all while making sensible trade offs which don't compromise the user experience.

That, and Sailfish does a lot of what this wants to do, and its written by a company with a sense of direction.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: And who was right?
by przemo_li on Sat 2nd Mar 2013 11:07 UTC in reply to "RE: And who was right?"
przemo_li Member since:
2010-06-01

You mean Windows Phone 8 can be shipped on 100$ hardware?

Will believe when see it!

(Talking about UNSUBSIDIZED price...)

Windows Phone 8 is hardware hog (still!) not suitable for lowend.

Windows Phone 7 was utter dream pipe on low end. WinP8 is better, but not enough. (And high end do not make you dominant player -> look at Apple).

Reply Score: 1

Android has the apps
by reduz on Tue 26th Feb 2013 22:44 UTC
reduz
Member since:
2006-02-25

Android has Google apps and the huge marketplace. I don't think Samsung will abandon it as flagship.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Android has the apps
by Nelson on Tue 26th Feb 2013 23:36 UTC in reply to "Android has the apps"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Exactly. This is why Tizen makes zero sense.

Why wouldn't they reuse the already vetted and very good Android userspace stack and just fork that away from Google?

I think this is the route they will ultimately end up going once this Tizen thing fizzles out.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Android has the apps
by shmerl on Wed 27th Feb 2013 00:20 UTC in reply to "RE: Android has the apps"
shmerl Member since:
2010-06-08

Firefox OS API will probably get more traction than Tizen Web API and it can be supported anywhere, including Android.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Android has the apps
by Nelson on Wed 27th Feb 2013 00:29 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Android has the apps"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

But why would anyone pick that over the Android API set?

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Android has the apps
by shmerl on Wed 27th Feb 2013 00:39 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Android has the apps"
shmerl Member since:
2010-06-08

Why would anyone pick some language / API over another? Familiarity, personal preference or what not. Firefox OS API is in JavaScript, Android one is in Java. Surely there are JavaScript developers who aren't Java developers and vice versa.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Android has the apps
by Nelson on Wed 27th Feb 2013 00:50 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Android has the apps"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

I think making the user experience suffer to be marginally more accommodating to, of all things, JS developers, is a poor investment of resources.

Qt and QML offer a better trade off between reach, performance, and productivity than HTML5/JS does.

HTML5 is just a stupid tickmark in a checklist of features, Microsoft went down this road too, and less than 5% of apps in the Windows Store are HTML5. I don't think, given a choice, many developers clamor for HTML5 in the context of mobile app development.

Reply Score: 4

RE[6]: Android has the apps
by shmerl on Wed 27th Feb 2013 02:22 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Android has the apps"
shmerl Member since:
2010-06-08

I personally agree that Qt/QML are better for such development. But some might still prefer to have a JavaScript option.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Android has the apps
by oiaohm on Wed 27th Feb 2013 00:40 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Android has the apps"
oiaohm Member since:
2009-05-30

Firefox OS API will probably get more traction than Tizen Web API and it can be supported anywhere, including Android.


Firefox OS API is a subset of Tizen Web API. You code identically for both. Due to Tizen security the extra features of Tizen above Firefox OS API default have to be queried. So there is really no difference between writing a Firefox OS application and a Tizen Web Application.

Tizen is where Android and Firefox OS meet. Then there is Tizen own native on top.

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: Android has the apps
by shmerl on Wed 27th Feb 2013 00:43 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Android has the apps"
shmerl Member since:
2010-06-08

Then you can rephrase it - Firefox OS runtime can become commonplace at some point. I doubt that will happen with Tizen, since they aren't openly developed and are for "partners only".

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Android has the apps
by oiaohm on Wed 27th Feb 2013 01:03 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Android has the apps"
oiaohm Member since:
2009-05-30

shmerl

Then you can rephrase it - Firefox OS runtime can become commonplace at some point. I doubt that will happen with Tizen, since they aren't openly developed and are for "partners only".

https://source.tizen.org/

I don't know where you got that from about Tizen. Firefox OS and Tizen OS are equally open.

Both you can download the development tip of the repositories.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Android has the apps
by shmerl on Wed 27th Feb 2013 02:19 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Android has the apps"
shmerl Member since:
2010-06-08

Tizen is significantly less open. Availability of code (in rare drop in fashion - i.e. no open development) doesn't help, but it has more issues than that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flora_License

It only grants patents to Tizen Certified Platforms that pass the Tizen Association's compatibility test.


As a licence, it is unlikely compatible with requirements of the Open Source Initiative


In 2012 Legal Team of Linux Foundation's Software Package Data Exchange (SPDX) devoted to licenses and copyrights associated with a software, expressed doubts regarding openness of the Flora License.


This looks to me like a reason why Tizen won't get wide traction, while Firefox OS runtime would.

Edited 2013-02-27 02:27 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Android has the apps
by oiaohm on Wed 27th Feb 2013 03:47 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Android has the apps"
oiaohm Member since:
2009-05-30

Tizen is significantly less open. Availability of code (in rare drop in fashion - i.e. no open development) doesn't help, but it has more issues than that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flora_License

"It only grants patents to Tizen Certified Platforms that pass the Tizen Association's compatibility test.


As a licence, it is unlikely compatible with requirements of the Open Source Initiative


In 2012 Legal Team of Linux Foundation's Software Package Data Exchange (SPDX) devoted to licenses and copyrights associated with a software, expressed doubts regarding openness of the Flora License.


This looks to me like a reason why Tizen won't get wide traction, while Firefox OS runtime would.
"

Depends Firefox OS you will have to talk to individual patent holders alone to make the device.

Tizen certifying body is the Linux Foundation. So charges for this is not too bad.

Tizen license does not forbid doing your own license pool for patents or own patent agreements. Basically a non certified Tizen from patent point of view is almost in the same place as Firefox OS.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Android has the apps
by oiaohm on Wed 27th Feb 2013 00:36 UTC in reply to "RE: Android has the apps"
oiaohm Member since:
2009-05-30

Exactly. This is why Tizen makes zero sense.

Why wouldn't they reuse the already vetted and very good Android userspace stack and just fork that away from Google?


Little problem Tizen is still a Linux Kernel.

OpenMobile's Application Compatibility Layer (ACL) is an Android userspace stack for a Tizen.

So Tizen runs Android, html5 and Tizen applications and possibly more.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Android has the apps
by Nelson on Wed 27th Feb 2013 00:46 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Android has the apps"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Just what consumers want, a bunch of different looking+feeling app ecosystems with differing performance characteristics and interaction paradigms.

This is a dumb idea.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Android has the apps
by oiaohm on Wed 27th Feb 2013 01:15 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Android has the apps"
oiaohm Member since:
2009-05-30

Nelson

Just what consumers want, a bunch of different looking+feeling app ecosystems with differing performance characteristics and interaction paradigms.

This is a dumb idea.


Remember Android is Linux at core. So its performance characteristics come party from that core.

Samsung has proven you can place window controls around android applications without issues.

Dumb idea then Windows and OS X should have stopped being used by users years ago. Windows and OS X are full of applications using different looking and feeling application ecosystems.

Normally it comes down to will it run the apps I want. Not if they are consistent.

Reply Score: 5

RE[5]: Android has the apps
by Nelson on Wed 27th Feb 2013 22:47 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Android has the apps"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29


Remember Android is Linux at core. So its performance characteristics come party from that core.


Fair enough. This is way minimal than I let on.


Dumb idea then Windows and OS X should have stopped being used by users years ago. Windows and OS X are full of applications using different looking and feeling application ecosystems.


Windows, with exception to Windows 8 / Phone, hasn't traditionally been a mobile phone OS. Besides, Windows has had self sustaining market dominance for way too long for the differences in experience to even factor in at sales time.

I don't really think it makes sense to look at Windows as proof that this kind of thing can work, when Windows has been locked in for a very, very long time.


Normally it comes down to will it run the apps I want. Not if they are consistent.


I think its a trade off between user experience and app availability.

What if someone didn't know how to use Android? Now they have to learn the UI paradigms of Android just to use apps on your OS (which likely differs in how you interact with it too).

Reply Score: 3

Comment by shmerl
by shmerl on Tue 26th Feb 2013 22:48 UTC
shmerl
Member since:
2010-06-08

Btw, I tried to make a submission about released Sailfish SDK. Did it go through at all?

Reply Score: 1

RE: Comment by shmerl
by Thom_Holwerda on Tue 26th Feb 2013 22:50 UTC in reply to "Comment by shmerl"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

It's already published, but delayed as to not suddenly have 5 new items. Will go live in... I dunno, 45 minutes or so.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by shmerl
by oiaohm on Wed 27th Feb 2013 01:18 UTC in reply to "Comment by shmerl"
oiaohm Member since:
2009-05-30

Btw, I tried to make a submission about released Sailfish SDK. Did it go through at all?


Exactly why did you do that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mer_%28operating_system%29

Upstream project of the Sailfish OS. Also can be an downstream from tizen.

Yes write once built many run on Sailfish OS and Tizen and others as native code.

Yes its going to get more confusing as all these Linux relations start appearing.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by shmerl
by shmerl on Wed 27th Feb 2013 02:24 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by shmerl"
shmerl Member since:
2010-06-08

Tizen can become a Mer derivative if they are wise.

Edited 2013-02-27 02:25 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Comment by shmerl
by swift11 on Wed 27th Feb 2013 06:50 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by shmerl"
swift11 Member since:
2012-08-23

Tizen can become a Mer derivative if they are wise.
You'll have to convince a lot of companies btw ;)
http://automotive.linuxfoundation.org/

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Comment by shmerl
by shmerl on Wed 27th Feb 2013 08:12 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by shmerl"
shmerl Member since:
2010-06-08

Initially there were plans for more collaboration. But Tizen remained closed for too long.

Reply Score: 2

Things for Tizen
by przemo_li on Sat 2nd Mar 2013 11:17 UTC
przemo_li
Member since:
2010-06-01

Better differentiation for OEM. (With andi you can do only so much).

Better support for low end hardware. (Again with andi you can do only so much)

Independence from Google. (Good for OEMs, must have for carriers)

OEM support (quite a few Top10 OEMs are interested).

Carrier support (quite a few big carriers are INVOLVED in Tizen development, that is better than carrier support for Android, and unbeatable by MS/Apple stance toward carriers)

Smartphone market should triple (TRIPLE like in x3) before it reach "stable" 2bln annual sales level (low end IS the biggest factor there).

Carriers want real 3rd alternative. There is non currently (MS as always project theyir pipedream here, but...) WinP8 is too closly tied to Skype (or can be), BB aim at corporate/mid-higer end and do not give much voice to carriers. So Tizen/Sailfish (if it will go for mid/low markets), Firefox OS. STILL have spot to take.



Also do note that Smartphone DUOPOLE in low end change into MONOPOLE of Android. Pushing OS that is suitable there is of utter most importance for carriers. So they will push a little harder for OS that can deliver there.

Reply Score: 1