Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 22nd Mar 2013 16:31 UTC
Windows Paul Thurrot: "Tipped off by a reader, I checked my System log in Event Viewer today and what did I find but a stack of pending updates for all of the core apps in Windows 8. I'm not 100 percent sure this is what I think it is. But if we're right, it looks like 18 of the core apps in Windows 8 are about to get updated. Or, almost all of them." Foley confirms it. By far Windows 8's weakest link, so I'm hoping this is true. Especially the Mail application is dreadful.
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Comment
by pandronic on Fri 22nd Mar 2013 17:09 UTC
pandronic
Member since:
2006-05-18

I sure know I gave Microsoft's vision of how Windows 8 should be used a fair chance for almost a month - until finally one day I couldn't take it anymore.

Now it's business as usual - I've installed a Start Menu replacement that's not as disruptive as the Start Screen and has a decent aggregated search, I boot directly to Desktop and I've disabled the hot corners. I haven't seen the "Modern" crap in weeks.

Modern apps on the desktop don't need to be updated, they need to be killed ... with fire.

Edited 2013-03-22 17:10 UTC

Reply Score: 12

RE: Comment
by techweenie1 on Fri 22nd Mar 2013 22:36 UTC in reply to "Comment"
techweenie1 Member since:
2008-10-15

Couldn't agree more...infact I stopped using Windows 8 altogether, couldn't take it.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Comment
by kaiwai on Sat 23rd Mar 2013 01:55 UTC in reply to "Comment"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

I sure know I gave Microsoft's vision of how Windows 8 should be used a fair chance for almost a month - until finally one day I couldn't take it anymore.


I went and sold my iMac and MacBook Pro, bought a two Lenovo computers which I both upgraded to Windows 8 and ran it since it came out publicly. It has been 50 shades a horrible after moving to the PC world but now I've moved back to Mac and happier for it. I gave Microsoft a chance, I really did but the reality is that once the dust settles and one confronts actually having to do something productive with ones computer then it is difficult to overlook all the flaws in Windows over all - Windows 8 being a symptom of a much larger problem of the Windows ecosystem.

Apple has realised that there is a desktop and there is a tablet - cross pollination will occur but in each case of cross pollination the imported idea has to be re-crafted for the new environment. Microsoft on the other hand, even with all evidence regarding 'gorilla arm' and the lack of scalability in Metro to scale up to complex applications we still have them holding onto a false set of ideas. What makes the issue even more funny is WinRT API was billed as a 'new API' when Arstechnica divided deeper to expose that it is merely a wrapper around win32 and nothing has actually changed - we're not really seeing any movement forward but a re-arranging of rotten deck chairs then being labelled as 'brand new'.

Edited 2013-03-23 01:58 UTC

Reply Score: 9

RE[2]: Comment
by Nelson on Sat 23rd Mar 2013 15:42 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Microsoft on the other hand, even with all evidence regarding 'gorilla arm' and the lack of scalability in Metro to scale up to complex applications we still have them holding onto a false set of ideas.


Do you have any specific examples of where WinRT can't scale up to complex application? There's not really much in the way of developers who want to write feature rich applications.

Sure, some things are limited, but not all things. There is also a distinction to be made between something being completely missing from WinRT, and something being done a different way with WinRT.

What makes the issue even more funny is WinRT API was billed as a 'new API' when Arstechnica divided deeper to expose that it is merely a wrapper around win32 and nothing has actually changed - we're not really seeing any movement forward but a re-arranging of rotten deck chairs then being labelled as 'brand new'.


This isn't completely true. The Windows Runtime is two things:

1. The ABI and language projections which allow cross language communication.

2. The implementation of various projected interfaces.

The first is handled by a souped up version of COM, and the second varies.

Some WinRT APIs are completely new implementations of functionality (Sensors, the entire XAML stack, every aspect of the new Application Model for example) and some are even allowed to be called from Desktop applications, and other APIs are wrappers around existing Win32 APIs like StreamSockets wrapping WinSock.

It doesn't really matter though because its an implementation detail that's completely transparent to the developer. Whereas with Windows 7 you directly coded against Win32, with the Windows Runtime you are an additional step removed from Win32, which makes it easy to replace it from under developers noses in the future.

The Windows Runtime could just as easily do the things that Win32 does itself, but it'd be a massive duplication of effort, given that Win32 itself still ships with Windows.

So I'm not entirely sure what you find so funny.

Edited 2013-03-23 15:43 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Comment
by moondevil on Sun 24th Mar 2013 06:30 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment"
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

Currently I have no reason to upgrade, but I am hoping that by Windows 9, or whatever it will be called, we could get a WinRT with broader support for desktop applications.

Win32 is huge, as it covers all operating system layers, so I do understand that Microsoft takes time to provide a WinRT that provides comparable set of APIs.

They had to focus on the ones required for mobile development, because that is where they are being hit right now.

Anyway with Cocoa, Android and WinRT we have an ongoing transition where the userland is becoming OO based.

Just the usual suspects will be stuck in C land in the future, maybe.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Comment
by Nelson on Sun 24th Mar 2013 18:07 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Currently I have no reason to upgrade, but I am hoping that by Windows 9, or whatever it will be called, we could get a WinRT with broader support for desktop applications.

Win32 is huge, as it covers all operating system layers, so I do understand that Microsoft takes time to provide a WinRT that provides comparable set of APIs.


You know what, I used to be against this, but I've since come around to accept that this is a reasonable position.

Windows 8 is positioned as a transitional release, and as such, the Windows Runtime should be extended to Desktop apps to aid in this transition.

Win32 is going away for a few client releases of Windows anyway, so there's no use in making people suffer as if it were.


They had to focus on the ones required for mobile development, because that is where they are being hit right now.

Anyway with Cocoa, Android and WinRT we have an ongoing transition where the userland is becoming OO based.

Just the usual suspects will be stuck in C land in the future, maybe.


Yes, even more exciting is that WinRT (read: COM) now supports aggregate based class inheritance which makes things a lot more useful.

That, plus the trend towards asynchronous continuation based APIs in WinRT.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment
by ze_jerkface on Sun 24th Mar 2013 22:48 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment"
ze_jerkface Member since:
2012-06-22

Whereas with Windows 7 you directly coded against Win32, with the Windows Runtime you are an additional step removed from Win32, which makes it easy to replace it from under developers noses in the future.


Hmmmmm building a cleaner API on Win32 sounds like a good idea. They should design this new layer to support multiple languages and platforms, even a mobile subset. They could call it .NET.

The Windows Runtime could just as easily do the things that Win32 does itself, but it'd be a massive duplication of effort, given that Win32 itself still ships with Windows.


Microsoft's API history could be summed as as massive duplication of effort.

So I'm not entirely sure what you find so funny.


What I find funny is that both you and Microsoft execs don't seem to know much about developing software for Microsoft platforms. I develop Windows software for a living so you might want to consult me before providing shoddy defenses.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Comment
by Nelson on Mon 25th Mar 2013 06:32 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29


Hmmmmm building a cleaner API on Win32 sounds like a good idea. They should design this new layer to support multiple languages and platforms, even a mobile subset. They could call it .NET.


And WinRT borrows a lot from .NET, including its metadata language and a lot of the design from the BCL.

If it wasn't for .NET, WinRT wouldn't exist. Furthermore, you bringing up .NET actually proves a great point.

.NET abstracted things like I/O away from Win32. When WinRT implemented those same APIs in native code instead of managed, .NET developers didn't even notice.

The APIs are the same, the concrete implementations differ. This is why its irrelevant what underpins *some* APIs that the Windows Runtime provides. Other APIs as I've said before are completely new to Windows.

I know oversimplifications are your thing, but to this extent, its misleading.


Microsoft's API history could be summed as as massive duplication of effort.


I agree, which is why its nice that the Windows Runtime reduces it by blurring the lines between native and managed code.

All APIs in Windows are not first party to .NET and even HTML5 apps on the platform. If that doesn't make you happy, then your criticism was in bad faith in the first place.


What I find funny is that both you and Microsoft execs don't seem to know much about developing software for Microsoft platforms. I develop Windows software for a living so you might want to consult me before providing shoddy defenses.


Look, it's great that you spend your day playing with DataGrids and WinForms, and its amusing that you're stuck in 2005, but overall, I don't really care and its not really relevant.

This is like the third or fourth time I've had to beat back your misinformation and frankly, extraordinary ignorance about .NET and Windows Development in general. How you keep your job with such a fundamental misunderstanding of what it is you do is beyond me.

This myopic obsession you have with legacy Windows is almost clinical, you need help.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Comment
by moondevil on Mon 25th Mar 2013 07:30 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment"
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

I think .NET vs WinRT is a bit a consequence of Vista's failure.

When .NET came out, the idea was to migrate everything to .NET, and C++ got a second class status.

There were two attempts to bring C++ developers to .NET world, first with Managed C++ and with .NET 2.0 C++/CLI.

Additionally, not all wannabe .NET developers, even today, are aware that you can compile to native code on installation time via NGEN.

Vista suffered a bit from the typical over engineering that is part of so many enterprise projects, which lead partly to its failure.

This allowed the Windows division, which isn't a big .NET fan, to make the Tools division go full circle back to native code.

This is why we have the C++ Renaissance, most of the new Windows APIs since Vista are COM based and not Win32, and finally WinRT offers a .NET like experience for native languages.

Even C++/CX is a set of C++ extensions, which although similar to C++/CLI, are used in native code.

While I don't like them, they are no different than C++ Builder's language extensions, or the ones almost every C or C++ compiler offers.

For those that are not aware, .NET applications are actually compiled to native code in Windows Phone 8, and according to some job offers on Microsoft, they might eventually integrate Visual C++ backend with native code backend for .NET.

Personally, I think the best way would be just to have a direct to native code compiler for .NET, or improve NGEN optimizations. But the political wars between Microsoft divisions have most likely lead to WinRT, which was in part the initial design for .NET, before they adopted the bytecode model.

This is nothing new, I have a few scars from political wars between software teams in Fortune 500 companies.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment
by Nelson on Mon 25th Mar 2013 09:44 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Yeah, it's crazy. WP8 cloud compiling seems to be a step above even what NGEN does, by introducing an additional type of IL that is closer to the metal and avoids the issues that install time NGEN has on Windows 8: Its not immediate.

Windows Store apps typically perform better (from a launch POV) after you've used them for a little while, this is because the NGEN service needs to get around to compiling your app and avoiding JIT.

That said, we live in dark days. Mirosoft's JIT suffers from an almost criminal lack of investment. There's been no real advancement in years prior to this.

Things could be so much closer to native code, but here we are, paying the price for a JIT that doesn't even output SIMD instructions yet (Except for hacked on Windows Phone XNA code)

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Comment
by moondevil on Mon 25th Mar 2013 11:00 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment"
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

I think they suffer from lack of competition.

There are some posts in MSDN forums which state Microsoft was only having one guy for Visual C++ bug fixes in the days the company was 100% on .NET (around early Vista days).

The .NET 4.5 is the first version where the JIT rewrites code, something that Java JITs are doing for ages.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment
by ze_jerkface on Tue 26th Mar 2013 02:46 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment"
ze_jerkface Member since:
2012-06-22

This is why we have the C++ Renaissance


There is no C++ renaissance. Sinofsky was another irrational managed code hater that couldn't answer most of our technical questions. Yes he got WinRT through but it will be almost entirely ignored just like WPF.

A team of .NET or Java developers can outproduce a team of C++ developers and that won't change with WinRT. C++ is used heavily for games but the enterprise world has zero interest in bringing it back for internal applications.

If anything there is a Java renaissance thanks to Android. The future of internal applications is the web and that has only been strengthened with Microsoft's incredibly stupid move of creating yet another API. The corporate world is getting sick of Microsoft trying to sell a new API every few years, especially when they have a hard time explaining productivity benefits and hope we all just fall for new 'n shiny.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Comment
by moondevil on Tue 26th Mar 2013 07:01 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment"
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

If all you do is write database boring CRUD applications, then yeah, there are better options then C++.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment
by ze_jerkface on Tue 26th Mar 2013 02:27 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment"
ze_jerkface Member since:
2012-06-22

When WinRT implemented those same APIs in native code instead of managed, .NET developers didn't even notice.


.NET developers won't notice any changes in WinRT because they don't care about it. The economic case isn't there. Most .NET developers are not fanboys and will use what they are ordered to or what makes them the most money.

The APIs are the same, the concrete implementations differ.


That's bs, C# is supported but .NET is not directly accessible.

I agree, which is why its nice that the Windows Runtime reduces it by blurring the lines between native and managed code.


No one has asked for such lines to be blurred. Game developers have wanted a C++ layer but has more to do with compatibility than anything else. Microsoft could have provided that without killing Silverlight and creating yet another needless API for application development.


Look, it's great that you spend your day playing with DataGrids and WinForms, and its amusing that you're stuck in 2005, but overall, I don't really care and its not really relevant.


Again you reveal how distant you are from actual Windows development. Fortune 500 hundred companies 'play' with Winforms more than anything else. Microsoft has already FAILED to push WPF and partly due to ignoring criticisms. WinRT will fail even harder because it is another stupid plan from Sinofsky that isn't based in sound thinking. New corporate applications will be built on servers and not with another pointless API that Microsoft wants everyone to use. The corporate world was sick of this bullshit with WPF and we saw what happened to Silverlight, or perhaps you don't remember Microsoft pushing it as the next big thing?


This is like the third or fourth time I've had to beat back your misinformation and frankly, extraordinary ignorance about .NET and Windows Development in general.


I've been right about Windows 8 while you haven't and I'll be right about WinRT as well. I was also right about Sinofsky from day one while you defended his inane plans. I was also right about the stock dropping after the Windows 8 release. I was also right about holiday sales failing to boost Windows 8 sales. I was also right about Surface being a dud.

So go ahead and question my competence when I'm the one with the superior track record of predicting what happens to Microsoft's technologies. I beat all the top Wall St analysts who last year were bullish on MSFT since like you they bought into this stupid, stupid plan. Anyone who took my advice to short the stock at the peak is now sitting pretty.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment
by moondevil on Tue 26th Mar 2013 07:03 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment"
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

Funny, because my employer is getting a share amount of WPF consulting projects from Fortune 500 companies, who would guess?!

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment
by UltraZelda64 on Sat 23rd Mar 2013 22:24 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment"
UltraZelda64 Member since:
2006-12-05

What makes the issue even more funny is WinRT API was billed as a 'new API' when Arstechnica divided deeper to expose that it is merely a wrapper around win32 and nothing has actually changed - we're not really seeing any movement forward but a re-arranging of rotten deck chairs then being labelled as 'brand new'.

Wow, are you serious? LMFAO... now that's bad. Everyone, including Microsoft, claimed that Metro was all 100% new stuff... now, it turns out it's just a wrapper on top of win32, and at the same time Microsoft wants us to ditch that crusty old win32-based desktop for being so rusty and outdated? I smell some serious irony and hypocrisy wafting in from the west coast right now...

Edited 2013-03-23 22:28 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment
by Nelson on Sun 24th Mar 2013 18:07 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29


Wow, are you serious? LMFAO... now that's bad. Everyone, including Microsoft, claimed that Metro was all 100% new stuff... now, it turns out it's just a wrapper on top of win32, and at the same time Microsoft wants us to ditch that crusty old win32-based desktop for being so rusty and outdated? I smell some serious irony and hypocrisy wafting in from the west coast right now...


No he's not serious. In fact, he's wrong. And uncharacteristically, so are you.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Comment
by UltraZelda64 on Sun 24th Mar 2013 18:37 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment"
UltraZelda64 Member since:
2006-12-05

Well, I found the article I think he's talking about:
http://arstechnica.com/features/2012/10/windows-8-and-winrt-everyth...

Care to pick it apart and point out its flaws? Enlighten us...

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Comment
by Nelson on Sun 24th Mar 2013 19:37 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

I did. Above.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment
by AndyB on Sat 23rd Mar 2013 15:10 UTC in reply to "Comment"
AndyB Member since:
2013-03-22

Now it's business as usual - I've installed a Start Menu replacement that's not as disruptive as the Start Screen and has a decent aggregated search, I boot directly to Desktop and I've disabled the hot corners. I haven't seen the "Modern" crap in weeks.

So basically you've turned your Windows 8 into Windows 7!

Don't get me wrong, after first seeing Windows 8 I refuse to install it on anything I will be using alot, I find it counter productive and much prefer the way Windows 7 handles things.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Comment
by pandronic on Sun 24th Mar 2013 00:11 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment"
pandronic Member since:
2006-05-18

Yup, it's a faster Windows 7 with a few tweaks here and there.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by MOS6510
by MOS6510 on Fri 22nd Mar 2013 19:07 UTC
MOS6510
Member since:
2011-05-12

Ehm, I kind of like the email client.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Comment by MOS6510
by pandronic on Sat 23rd Mar 2013 09:33 UTC in reply to "Comment by MOS6510"
pandronic Member since:
2006-05-18

It's not so bad, but compared to something like Thunderbird it's kind of a toy. It's fine on my WP8 phone though.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by Nelson
by Nelson on Fri 22nd Mar 2013 19:13 UTC
Nelson
Member since:
2005-11-29

This is the advantages of the new Windows Store application model -- apps can be updated independently of the OS out of band.

Not just small apps, but essentially every app except the Store app itself can be updated independent of Windows Update, completely via the Store.

In addition, Windows 8 apps like Mail support protocol activation and URI schemes which means another third party app can just be dropped in to replace it.

On the topic of quality, I agree. Some of the stock apps are not very flattering. Some need more work than others. I hope that these updates are significant and fix a lot of the issues. It'll send a clear message that Microsoft is listening to users.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Comment by Nelson
by toast88 on Sat 23rd Mar 2013 21:22 UTC in reply to "Comment by Nelson"
toast88 Member since:
2009-09-23

This is the advantages of the new Windows Store application model -- apps can be updated independently of the OS out of band.


Cool, so Microsoft is now somewhat up to par with 20-year-old Linux distributions ;) .

Adrian

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Comment by Nelson
by moondevil on Sun 24th Mar 2013 06:43 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by Nelson"
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

20 years ago there were not repositories like now.

You just had a set of floppies or CDs with the Linux distribution.

Most people, when they had a network connection, if at all, it was a modem based one.

If you could afford it it would be up to 56000 baud, or the double if your ISP offered the double modem links.

You would pay per minute or network traffic.

The only distributions that did automatic updates were the Debian based ones. RPM and tgz based distributions did not had any way to automatically download dependencies.

So on those days most people tracked down packages, which were installed manually. Mostly by bringing them from work or university "high speed" connections and installing them at home.

As for package format, even Windows has them since the Windows 2000 days.

And lets not forget that commercial UNIX systems still don't have automatic package downloads like apt get, except for Solaris if I am not mistaken.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by Nelson
by viton on Sun 24th Mar 2013 11:40 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by Nelson"
viton Member since:
2005-08-09
RE: Comment by Nelson
by dragossh on Sun 24th Mar 2013 12:17 UTC in reply to "Comment by Nelson"
dragossh Member since:
2008-12-16

This is the advantages of the new Windows Store application model -- apps can be updated independently of the OS out of band.


This is in no way dependent on having a central repository. See Windows Live Essentials, which in theory at least could be updated at any time, out of band with the OS, or IE9, or .NET (not an app, but still part of the OS). The only advantage of the Store is that you don't litter your system with dozens of updaters, but even that could be avoided without the need of a Store by using an updater to which apps can register. They could name it Windows Update.

In addition, Windows 8 apps like Mail support protocol activation and URI schemes which means another third party app can just be dropped in to replace it.


This is in no way dependent on the Store or unique to Windows 8 either. Windows supported custom URI schemes for like forever.

Edited 2013-03-24 12:18 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by Nelson
by Nelson on Sun 24th Mar 2013 18:15 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by Nelson"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29


This is in no way dependent on having a central repository. See Windows Live Essentials, which in theory at least could be updated at any time, out of band with the OS, or IE9, or .NET (not an app, but still part of the OS). The only advantage of the Store is that you don't litter your system with dozens of updaters, but even that could be avoided without the need of a Store by using an updater to which apps can register. They could name it Windows Update.


They could be, and WLE definitely was progress but it wasn't on the scale of what's been ushered in by the Windows Store being the place for applications on Windows.

You now have a central, trusted place to get app updates you know have been vetted to work within the capabilities and constraints they declare to require.

This requires not just out of band distribution, but deep architectural OS sandboxing and brokering which wasn't present pre-Windows 8.

The Windows Store is an updater that you can subscribe to, it just so happens to be a Store front too.

But what we're seeing now is a trend for more agile releases from the various teams within Microsoft as a result of all of this. The Bing applications have been updated various times, same with Microsoft's other stock apps including Mail a few times. This wouldn't be Mail's first update.

I was also wrong before, IE and any other browser which opts into the Metro environment by running a mixed mode app also isn't updated via the Windows Store.


This is in no way dependent on the Store or unique to Windows 8 either. Windows supported custom URI schemes for like forever.


Yes, but we also had named pipes, shared memory, and other IPC which made the use of these URI schemes rather limited.

With WinRT, the only method for app to app communication is custom URIs and protocol associations which pushes these features into the mainstream.

It's not only used for Mail, or for IE, but used for Xbox Music, and Skype, and the People app and a lot others.

You use it intrinsically because it's part of how apps navigate on the Windows Store, if you support secondary tiles, developers could in theory leverage your work and have their app deep dive to any point you expose within yours.

On top of this, if a URI scheme isn't registered on the OS (or a protocol association), then the Windows Store is automatically invoked and all apps containing the relevant support are shown in the results.

This is a much richer and deeper level of integration that has existed before in versions of Windows.

P.S. I've read the comments by others about how other distros have had centralized repositories before, and that's fine, I agree that this has been a long time coming.

Reply Score: 2

Got Win8 and WinPhone8
by reduz on Fri 22nd Mar 2013 20:11 UTC
reduz
Member since:
2006-02-25

And have to use them extensively for work.
Both are really poor user experiences compared to Android or even Ubuntu (let alone OSX).

Windows 8 works, but it just feels like unnecessary hassle compared to previous versions, and I never ever use the "modern" stuff, since everything I need is on the desktop anyway.

Windows Phone 8 is full of bugs and annoyances, my calendars vanish and reappear the next day, Nokia Maps work terrible, apps take a long time to start or even resume, the notification system sucks because each service has it's own tile, and the dicoverability of everything is also vastly inferior to iOS and Android.

Oh, and plug them together: Nothing happens.

So I don't know, Microsoft is competing with inferior products as always, but their current approach just doesn't seem to work.

Edited 2013-03-22 20:12 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE: Got Win8 and WinPhone8
by Nelson on Fri 22nd Mar 2013 20:25 UTC in reply to "Got Win8 and WinPhone8"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Which phone do you use? Nearly *all* my apps open extremely fast. Where on Windows Phone 7 apps took a second or two, on Windows Phone 8 I often don't even see the splash screen.

As for your other bugs, I don't know. I do find Windows Phone 8 to be buggier than Windows Phone 7, but that's just relatively speaking -- it hasn't been terrible for me. A reboot last week out of nowhere or something.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Got Win8 and WinPhone8
by reduz on Fri 22nd Mar 2013 20:46 UTC in reply to "RE: Got Win8 and WinPhone8"
reduz Member since:
2006-02-25

It probably will improve enormously when they release 8.1 or something like that.
However, the poor integration with Google services and the vastly inferior mapping application means i'll soon switch back to Android..
About apps loading slow, don't you see a "Loading.." sign when you open apps? most of the apps show that. Depending on the app it might take 5 to 15 seconds.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Got Win8 and WinPhone8
by Thom_Holwerda on Fri 22nd Mar 2013 21:15 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Got Win8 and WinPhone8"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

You mean "Resuming...", and yes, it's silly. No idea why it sometimes takes longer, and no idea why it shows that anyway - it serves no purposes, and users don't understand it.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Got Win8 and WinPhone8
by reduz on Sat 23rd Mar 2013 14:50 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Got Win8 and WinPhone8"
reduz Member since:
2006-02-25

right, It's resuming..
Maybe it suspends applications or something like that.
The battery life on my winphone lasts much longer than other Android phones i owned (though it doesn't come close to the Z10).

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Got Win8 and WinPhone8
by Nelson on Sat 23rd Mar 2013 15:35 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Got Win8 and WinPhone8"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Apps tombstone on Windows Phone 8 only during low memory situations or crashes. If you consistently see "Resuming.." it means the app is loading state from disk instead of from memory. That overlay shows when the app takes more than X amount of time to resume.

So its likely that there's either an issue in how the developer handles tombstoning or the developer is leaking some memory somewhere causing the process manager to kill it.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Got Win8 and WinPhone8
by reduz on Sat 23rd Mar 2013 16:16 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Got Win8 and WinPhone8"
reduz Member since:
2006-02-25

Today morning i woke up and it won't sync with Google anymore, claiming certificate issues.
This phone OS is so buggy that by the time they get it right, I'm afraid no one will even remember it existed.

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: Got Win8 and WinPhone8
by Nelson on Sat 23rd Mar 2013 16:53 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Got Win8 and WinPhone8"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

That could be a number of things from a server misconfiguration on Google's part to a network issue to an OS bug.

I don't use Google's services so I wouldn't know. With EAS+Outlook my email just syncs.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Got Win8 and WinPhone8
by reduz on Sun 24th Mar 2013 07:20 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Got Win8 and WinPhone8"
reduz Member since:
2006-02-25

nope, windows phone 8 always reloads the apps from scratch for me, it doesn't allow them to stay on the background like android or modern ios.
Pretty annoying with apps such as gchat on 3G, has to load the contact list all the time. Happens with all applications, so at this point I think it's just the OS that doesn't support proper multitasking

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Got Win8 and WinPhone8
by MOS6510 on Sun 24th Mar 2013 17:17 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Got Win8 and WinPhone8"
MOS6510 Member since:
2011-05-12

Skype runs in the background, but only for a short while making it rather useless.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Got Win8 and WinPhone8
by Nelson on Sun 24th Mar 2013 18:03 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Got Win8 and WinPhone8"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

nope, windows phone 8 always reloads the apps from scratch for me, it doesn't allow them to stay on the background like android or modern ios.


This isn't true. At all. It is provably false if you read any of the developer documentation that Microsoft provides.

App state is completely persisted in memory while the OS isn't under pressure, or while the app has not crashed. This is called Fast App Switching, or FAS.

In addition to this, there's tombstoning that goes on under low memory conditions or during crashes, as I've explained before.

In an additional addition to this, Windows Phone 7 apps and Windows Phone 8 apps behave differently when launched from their tile.

Windows Phone 8 apps have the ability to opt in to an experience called Fast App Resume (FAR) which means that the app resumes from the same place it previously was, even when launched from a tile.

FAS which I mentioned above only resumes state when you navigate backwards in the OS navigation stack, either by pressing the back button or long pressing back and using the app switcher UI.

The summarize:
FAS+FAR on Windows Phone 8 is what gives apps parity with iOS when it comes to being able to pick up where you left off of, even from a tile launch.

FAS by itself only does this when you navigate backwards into it, by returning to an already running instance. Otherwise, WP7 apps and WP8 apps without the opt-in behave identically and only support FAS.

My hunch is that you're just trying to re-launch the app from the tile and expecting it to pick up from where it left off of, which makes sense if the app supports FAS and opts into FAR, but it isn't always the case.

On top of this there is background agents which can run at regular intervals, or constantly in the case of Audio, Location, and VOIP.

P.S This is different from the situation on Windows 8, where apps support FAS+FAR out of the box and there is no way to opt-out. All Windows 8 apps relaunch from their previous position, even if they're relaunched from their tile.

Windows Phone 8 just brings WP to feature parity with Windows 8 in this respect.

Reply Score: 3

Windows 8 fanboy meetup club next month
by ze_jerkface on Sun 24th Mar 2013 22:58 UTC
ze_jerkface
Member since:
2012-06-22

Nelson is going to give a special presentation entitled: How to convince people that don't like Windows 8 on why they actually like it.

We'll also discuss new ideas on how Microsoft can force Metro on users in more areas.

Hail the empire!

Reply Score: 1

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

At least you mention me, and not Sinofsky for a change. This is progress.

Reply Score: 3

ze_jerkface Member since:
2012-06-22

Maybe you should apply for his job, I bet you could also spend a few billion dollars on crap that no one wants and then censor any feedback that shows your ideas are retarded.

Reply Score: 2

Windows 8 and Windows RT
by darkcoder on Mon 25th Mar 2013 18:28 UTC
darkcoder
Member since:
2006-07-14

Microsoft is facing some trouble with their new products, but IMO is not a design problem (bad product), but bad marketing and preparation, in the same way Vista was affected.

1. They went too fast in unifying an interface for all devices (tablets, phones, computers), maybe by fear of Android who's dominating the phone market, and will dominate the tablet soon, and which also has one "unsupported" beta version working on AMD laptops around. The problem (and probably the one Google saw) is that desktops and laptops lacked the touch device which may make the user experience less pleasant. MS went first by fear and got burned.

2. Apps and developent kits... Microsoft should learn from Blizzard on this one. Blizz introduce class changes in WoW prior to an expansion became online, allowing users to adapt first. In MS case, they should give the development tools for new technologies way ahead (close to a year) before OS is released, so devs have time to adjust and release good software. They made the same mistake with Net Framework when was released and took like 1 year or more for Microsoft to get its own Messenger ported to it.

3. WinRT. It should not have existed at all.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Windows 8 and Windows RT
by ze_jerkface on Tue 26th Mar 2013 02:54 UTC in reply to "Windows 8 and Windows RT "
ze_jerkface Member since:
2012-06-22

Microsoft is facing some trouble with their new products, but IMO is not a design problem (bad product)
.


So you believe Metro is of sound design and the problem is that most people haven't used it? How do you explain all the bad reviews?

Most people don't like Metro. This was shown in early polls but Microsoft didn't want to listen.

Metro sucks. That's all there is to it. It just plain sucks.

Reply Score: 2

Also forgot...
by darkcoder on Mon 25th Mar 2013 18:32 UTC
darkcoder
Member since:
2006-07-14

4. Market. You cannot be selective on an App Market that you are starting. People want to find apps, not dust inside a market. When number of apps grew, then you can start filtering stuff.

Edited 2013-03-25 18:33 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE: Also forgot...
by ze_jerkface on Tue 26th Mar 2013 02:57 UTC in reply to "Also forgot..."
ze_jerkface Member since:
2012-06-22

Don't worry, I'm sure that will change now that they are giving teenagers $100 to write garbage games.

In a few months they'll claim their app store went up 400% and not a single person will give a shit.

Reply Score: 2