Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sun 24th Mar 2013 13:03 UTC
Windows "An early build of Windows Blue, the next version of Windows, has leaked online. Build 9364 has been made available on file sharing sites and includes some of the new changes that Microsoft is building into its significant Windows 8 update. Leaked screenshots show that the company is bringing smaller Live Tile arrangements to its Start Screen, along with greater control over the color personalization options. Other improvements include a number of new options in the Windows 8-style settings screen. SkyDrive options are present, which appear to show greater integration and control over device back ups and files. There's also an app settings section that surfaces options to change default apps and information on app sizes." Very welcome improvements - but unless there's significant speed and performance improvements, this is all for naught. Update: Woah, a 50:50 split view! They are listening! Update 2: Steve Troughton-Smith details that the split can be any size, and that you can also split three and four applications.
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MS ARM code stinks
by kragil on Sun 24th Mar 2013 13:25 UTC
kragil
Member since:
2006-01-04

WindowsRT is dog slow, Win8 on Atoms runs circles around it. I doubt Blue will change that.

Reply Score: 2

RE: MS ARM code stinks
by Nelson on Sun 24th Mar 2013 18:17 UTC in reply to "MS ARM code stinks"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Which Windows RT device have you used?

Reply Score: 4

In 2013...
by bowkota on Sun 24th Mar 2013 13:36 UTC
bowkota
Member since:
2011-10-12

It's 2013, in the World of Windows and for the updated *DESKTOP* OS the big exciting changes are 50/50 split view and a Settings pane. ok ...

Edited 2013-03-24 13:37 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE: In 2013...
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 24th Mar 2013 13:45 UTC in reply to "In 2013..."
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

You can say this of any modern mobile platform these days. Look at iOS and "multitasking" and copy/paste, for instance.

Sad, but true.

Reply Score: 8

RE[2]: In 2013...
by bowkota on Sun 24th Mar 2013 14:47 UTC in reply to "RE: In 2013..."
bowkota Member since:
2011-10-12

You can say this of any modern mobile platform these days. Look at iOS and "multitasking" and copy/paste, for instance.

Sad, but true.


I did stress the words Desktop OS; quit an important difference.
You're referring to Mobile Operating systems, which were running on single CPU devices at 500MHz until very recently.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: In 2013...
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 24th Mar 2013 14:49 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: In 2013..."
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

You're talking about Metro, which is an environment for *mobile*. Windows 8 can do snapping of any size in the desktop.

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: In 2013...
by avgalen on Sun 24th Mar 2013 15:16 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: In 2013..."
avgalen Member since:
2010-09-23

It is not called Metro but Modern (silly nitpicking)
It is not for mobile but for touch
And desktop cannot snap applications at all to each other. It can only snap applications to the left and right (50%) of the screen. You CAN manually line up windows any way you want but they are not snapped

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: In 2013...
by Elv13 on Mon 25th Mar 2013 02:51 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: In 2013..."
Elv13 Member since:
2006-06-12

Actually, you could (back when I used windows (until 2002 or so)) by CTRL+left client on the taskbar, than right click and select "tile".

Edited 2013-03-25 02:51 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE[6]: In 2013...
by ssokolow on Mon 25th Mar 2013 03:46 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: In 2013..."
ssokolow Member since:
2010-01-21

Actually, you could (back when I used windows (until 2002 or so)) by CTRL+left client on the taskbar, than right click and select "tile".


That doesn't sound flexible enough for what I want. It sounds more like a limited version of what WinSplit Revolution and QuickTile do. (Select a window, Ctrl+Alt+NumPad to snap them to a corresponding segment of the screen. Press the key again to cycle through various widths.)

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: In 2013...
by bowkota on Sun 24th Mar 2013 15:17 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: In 2013..."
bowkota Member since:
2011-10-12

You're talking about Metro, which is an environment for *mobile*. Windows 8 can do snapping of any size in the desktop.


So you're all excited about these changes because you'll be able to use them on your tablet. Gotcha!

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: In 2013...
by darknexus on Mon 25th Mar 2013 02:32 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: In 2013..."
darknexus Member since:
2008-07-15

You're talking about Metro, which is an environment for *mobile*. Windows 8 can do snapping of any size in the desktop.

Thom, don't pull that crap. You'd only have a point if Metro was limited to mobile devices. Since it's not, it's forced its way into the desktop whether we like it or not and thus we have every right to judge it by desktop standards. And, by desktop standards, it's a colossal fail.

Reply Score: 8

RE[3]: In 2013...
by gagol on Sun 24th Mar 2013 23:30 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: In 2013..."
gagol Member since:
2012-05-16

I remember a single CPU computer I had back in the days. It ran 33MHz on "turbo" and yet had graphical interface, copy/paste, multitasking and was capable of displaying more than 4 application at a time.

Everything old is new again... patented with "on a phone". Where is the innovation?

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: In 2013...
by Phucked on Mon 25th Mar 2013 10:01 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: In 2013..."
Phucked Member since:
2008-09-24

I remember a single CPU computer I had back in the days. It ran 33MHz on "turbo" and yet had graphical interface, copy/paste, multitasking and was capable of displaying more than 4 application at a time.

Everything old is new again... patented with "on a phone". Where is the innovation?


Aye.. lets not forget the Amiga OS could do that too on a 7mhz CPU with 512KB of ram.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: In 2013...
by zima on Thu 28th Mar 2013 16:06 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: In 2013..."
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Unstably / with quite a few Guru Meditation errors thrown in...

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: In 2013...
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Mon 25th Mar 2013 15:00 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: In 2013..."
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

The Screen. Small, high resolution active matrix, capacitive touch, gorilla glass.

The Battery. High storage capabilities, multiple recharge, small size.

The CPU. Powerful, battery sipping.

You could call all of that hardware, but there is a ton of invisible code that makes all of that work together in a cohesive fashion.

Once all of that was brought together it ushered in a new frontier. Where everything that was old and good needed to be ported over. You can cry about how none of it is new, but I prefer to marvel at the whole package and the new possibilities opened up.

Reply Score: 2

RE: In 2013...
by panzi on Sun 24th Mar 2013 14:21 UTC in reply to "In 2013..."
panzi Member since:
2006-01-22

Is Microsoft slowly reinventing the tiling window manager? The early 2000s called, they want their GUI concepts back.

Reply Score: 13

RE[2]: In 2013...
by butters on Sun 24th Mar 2013 16:38 UTC in reply to "RE: In 2013..."
butters Member since:
2005-07-08

Stacked window management has never been terribly useful (perhaps excepting the occasional dialog), and nobody has ever perfected the tiling window manager, so I don't see how this is a retrograde step.

A simple but flexible tiling window manager is arguably the best way to utilize large displays, particularly when it comes to content creation and other remaining use-cases for the traditional desktop.

If anyone is willing to make the case for stacked window management on large displays in the 2010s, by all means go ahead.

Reply Score: 7

RE[3]: In 2013...
by WorknMan on Sun 24th Mar 2013 19:54 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: In 2013..."
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

Stacked window management has never been terribly useful (perhaps excepting the occasional dialog), and nobody has ever perfected the tiling window manager, so I don't see how this is a retrograde step.


I am visually impaired, so usually run at lower resolutions, with apps like browsers, email programs, etc at full screen. Needless to say, I am not a huge fan of tiled window managers ;) However, my case is certainly the exception rather than the rule.

That being said, I think a modern OS should let you choose which option you prefer in the same desktop environment, so we don't have to have these kinds of debates. You shouldn't need to add another DE to the mix just because you want to change things like this.

Edited 2013-03-24 19:57 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: In 2013...
by bnolsen on Sun 24th Mar 2013 20:44 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: In 2013..."
bnolsen Member since:
2006-01-06

virtual desktops are the answer to proper management of windows. I personally always found tiling managers to be for me a flawed paradigm. The problem I've seen are that users don't seem to immediately get virtual desktops and after switching will still trash up one desktop with a bunch of stacked windows and taskbar icons.

Edited 2013-03-24 20:44 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: In 2013...
by ssokolow on Sun 24th Mar 2013 22:40 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: In 2013..."
ssokolow Member since:
2010-01-21

virtual desktops are the answer to proper management of windows. I personally always found tiling managers to be for me a flawed paradigm. The problem I've seen are that users don't seem to immediately get virtual desktops and after switching will still trash up one desktop with a bunch of stacked windows and taskbar icons.


I'd say the ideal solution is a mix. I always run my windows maximized, but that's because I have two 1280x1024 LCD panels side-by-side.

If I had anything bigger or if I had only one monitor, I'd either set up a tiling WM or find some way to dynamically set up fake Xinerama boundaries so Openbox's maximize would give the same effect.

I think the big issue with tiling WMs on Linux is that nobody has built a hybrid tiling-floating WM with familiar keybindings, intuitive mouse interactions, and theming at least on par with IceWM and Openbox.

(Bluetile claims to do the first two. When I have time to learn Haskell, I'll probably try my hand at patching in the third. As is, I'm just using a minimal WinSplit Revolution clone I wrote for X11 named QuickTile.)

Heck, didn't the nVidia drivers for Windows offer to fake up maximize boundaries back in the WinXP era? (I never liked it because it didn't seem to let you grab a boundary and drag to resize or grab a window and drag to split a region or to make two windows trade places.)

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: In 2013...
by Nelson on Sun 24th Mar 2013 18:21 UTC in reply to "RE: In 2013..."
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Yes they are. Is that so bad, and why?

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: In 2013...
by Neolander on Sun 24th Mar 2013 18:27 UTC in reply to "RE: In 2013..."
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

Is Microsoft slowly reinventing the tiling window manager? The early 2000s called, they want their GUI concepts back.

Early 2000s, you say ? I can think of older examples, and from no other than...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Windows1.0.png

Edited 2013-03-24 18:31 UTC

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: In 2013...
by panzi on Sun 24th Mar 2013 21:52 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: In 2013..."
panzi Member since:
2006-01-22

Ok, didn't do my research there. Apparently there where tiling window managers since 1981/1982 (even before Windows 1). In the early 2000s there was a tiling window manager craze on Linux, though. At least I experienced it like that.

Anyway, it's not "good" or "bad". It just isn't something new. And I wonder if there is a reason that tiling window managers didn't caught on? Also I think overlapping windows are good for some things, tiling is probably good for something else. So a combination would be good.

Reply Score: 2

RE: In 2013...
by Nelson on Sun 24th Mar 2013 18:18 UTC in reply to "In 2013..."
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

It's 2013, in the World of Windows and for the updated *DESKTOP* OS the big exciting changes are 50/50 split view and a Settings pane. ok ...


An incremental release, which will be released free of charge contains incremental improvements and you seem surprised, why?

Reply Score: 4

Comment by Luminair
by Luminair on Sun 24th Mar 2013 14:43 UTC
Luminair
Member since:
2007-03-30

they haven't changed course until the start menu shows up again

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by Luminair
by cmost on Sun 24th Mar 2013 17:12 UTC in reply to "Comment by Luminair"
cmost Member since:
2006-07-16

I couldn't agree more. Without the Start menu; the ability to run Metro apps in windows (side-by-side if desired); or an ability to bypass the Metro nonsense altogether in favor of a "classic" Win 7 experience, forget about it. I realize there are third party apps that accomplish all of these things, but Microsoft needs to start listening to its user base instead of pulling a Gnome and going it alone.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by Luminair
by Nelson on Sun 24th Mar 2013 18:21 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by Luminair"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Maybe Microsoft isn't pulling a Gnome
and maybe Gnome isn't pulling a Gnome.

Its quite possible, in fact, extremely likely, that your own thinking is at odds with what the majority of average users think, expect, or even desire.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by Luminair
by Moredhas on Mon 25th Mar 2013 05:10 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by Luminair"
Moredhas Member since:
2008-04-10

I obviously know what Gnome is, but I had a mental image of what "gnome-pulling" may be... It involves reluctant garden gnomes and rope.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Comment by Luminair
by Luminair on Mon 25th Mar 2013 17:24 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by Luminair"
Luminair Member since:
2007-03-30

and maybe you are out of your god damned mind

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Comment by Luminair
by Nelson on Mon 25th Mar 2013 17:52 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by Luminair"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

I wouldn't exactly rule it out.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by Luminair
by cmost on Tue 26th Mar 2013 01:51 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by Luminair"
cmost Member since:
2006-07-16

Maybe Microsoft isn't pulling a Gnome
and maybe Gnome isn't pulling a Gnome.

Its quite possible, in fact, extremely likely, that your own thinking is at odds with what the majority of average users think, expect, or even desire.


Oh really?!? Then explain why Canonical decided to ditch Gnome in favor of Unity; why Linux Mint decided to fork Gnome shell to create Cinnamon; why MATE came into existence or why Miguel de Icaza, one of the creators of Gnome has ditched Linux altogether for a Mac genius?

Edited 2013-03-26 01:52 UTC

Reply Score: 1

adinas
Member since:
2005-08-17

OMG! Soon you will be able to view as many apps as you want at once in any window size. Something we've never seen before! oh, wait...

Reply Score: 11

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Would you rather them not make this improvement? I don't really follow the line of thought of these extreme positions.

Its quite obvious that Windows as we knew it will not come back. If you don't like it, you're free to not use Windows.

The better middle ground is incorporating features from the traditional desktop into the new Start Screen. Being able to do 50/50 splits, or even better, arbitrary splits with multiple applications is a definite improvement over what's in Windows 8 now.

Reply Score: 3

adinas Member since:
2005-08-17

"Its quite obvious that Windows as we knew it will not come back" Microsoft have backtracked when they had a product that sucked or failed (MS Bob, Clippy, Windows Mobile) we can only hope they realize it here too. Though you may be right, they may over time add multiple window support, a status bar and the other features from the desktop.

Reply Score: 3

Comment by diegocg
by diegocg on Sun 24th Mar 2013 16:00 UTC
diegocg
Member since:
2005-07-08

*Yawn*

Reply Score: 0

Comment by v_bobok
by v_bobok on Sun 24th Mar 2013 16:28 UTC
v_bobok
Member since:
2008-08-01

A "leak", right.

Reply Score: 2

Server GUI needs work in my opinion
by matthekc on Sun 24th Mar 2013 16:47 UTC
matthekc
Member since:
2006-10-28

I have used Server 2012 and in a remote session the start menu or whatever that thing in the corner is called now is nearly unusable. Without a button in the corner I have had to resort to using the key command alt + home. However the new management console in my opinion rocks.

Reply Score: 2

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

I think hotcorners as a whole need to go. They're stupid on a Mouse+Keyboard.

Reply Score: 3

Bring the desktop back.
by moondevil on Sun 24th Mar 2013 16:55 UTC
moondevil
Member since:
2005-07-08

I am waiting for the SP that might eventually make the Tiles go away, or at the very least offer a control panel option to disable it.

Until then I will keep Windows 7.

Reply Score: 1

Comment by marcp
by marcp on Sun 24th Mar 2013 18:15 UTC
marcp
Member since:
2007-11-23

50:50 split size? wtf is this? is it just window tiling?
If so, then it's nothing new. In *Nix world we have many tiling window managers, like i3wm, awesome, etc.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Comment by marcp
by Nelson on Sun 24th Mar 2013 18:26 UTC in reply to "Comment by marcp"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Its obviously new to Windows, which is the point of this article.

I wasn't aware, but do Windows people invade every Linux post and spam them with irrelevant garbage like this? I don't think anyone is claiming this to be new or revolutionary, just a welcome improvement.

But I get it, you got your snipe in.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by marcp
by Moredhas on Mon 25th Mar 2013 05:12 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by marcp"
Moredhas Member since:
2008-04-10

Yes. Yes they do. Spend a bit of time on Slashdot, and you'll see as soon as someone utters the L word, everyone's favourite old chestnuts of FUD and slander come out.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by marcp
by marcp on Mon 25th Mar 2013 12:14 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by marcp"
marcp Member since:
2007-11-23

I don't know what "Windows", "Linux" people do. I'm not in their gangs. I don't believe in "fanboyism". I use many operating systems - both desktop and server ones, that's why I was shocked tiling is so "shocking" to some people.

And you, sir - you just get off me. I don't know you, yet you behave like you were knowing me.
Talk about the stuff that's in this article, and put personal arguments aside.

Reply Score: 2

But Unless?
by hoak on Sun 24th Mar 2013 20:03 UTC
hoak
Member since:
2007-12-17

Thom Holwerda: "...but unless there's significant speed and performance improvements, this is all for naught."

Really? When NT 6.2 hits higher benchmarks then 6.1 virtually across the board on old and new hardware? And when exactly historically has 'speed and performance improvement' been the arbiter of success of ANY Consumer OS?

Edited 2013-03-24 20:05 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: But Unless?
by Nelson on Sun 24th Mar 2013 20:18 UTC in reply to "But Unless?"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

He's probably means to say he hopes devs get better at writing Windows Store applications.

Not that classic Win32 applications were much better, but touch has a way of amplifying any deficiencies an application has because you expect stick to your finger performance.

Also, there are limited issues related to scrolling on trackpads being choppy on certain types of Windows Store apps. This needs a fix and MSFT has confirmed its an issue.

Reply Score: 3

RE: But Unless?
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 24th Mar 2013 21:14 UTC in reply to "But Unless?"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

I mean Metro applications.

Reply Score: 2

RE: But Unless?
by Moredhas on Mon 25th Mar 2013 05:14 UTC in reply to "But Unless?"
Moredhas Member since:
2008-04-10

Benchmark scores aren't exactly the sole way of divining the speed and responsiveness of an OS. They don't accurately simulate the issue of digging through a slurry of libraries to find exactly what you want, and then stumbling over version mismatches.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: But Unless?
by Nelson on Mon 25th Mar 2013 06:37 UTC in reply to "RE: But Unless?"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

+1. Exactly this. Besides, perceived performance and responsiveness are arguably equally as important as raw performance, and that doesn't show up in a benchmark half the time.

For example, animations can buy you a lot of computation time to do extra initialization. We're not talking seconds, but milliseconds here, yet still it makes a difference.

Conversely, stuttery input handling can make even the fastest apps seem slow.

Reply Score: 3

Post-apocalyptic era?
by ebasconp on Sun 24th Mar 2013 22:36 UTC
ebasconp
Member since:
2006-05-09

Do you remember all of these post-apocalyptic movies, where everything should be built again because of everything was destroyed?

That is exactly what is happening with Windows. They (and I actually do not know why) destroyed their best operating system ever (Windows 7) and tried to created something new from their ashes with a very retro ("retro" would be nice, "prehistorical" sounds more accurate) UI.

I do not know all of you, but in my case, I liked the times I was able to decide how to organize my screen, select the colors of my desktop and have mature user interfaces full of options and a whole of information instead of these colorful hippie times interfaces with giant icons and fonts using my whole screen.

Edited 2013-03-24 22:37 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE: Post-apocalyptic era?
by Luminair on Mon 25th Mar 2013 17:25 UTC in reply to "Post-apocalyptic era?"
Luminair Member since:
2007-03-30

I concur doctor

Reply Score: 2

Three words
by darkhog on Sun 24th Mar 2013 22:46 UTC
darkhog
Member since:
2013-03-08

Ditch. The. Metro.

Reply Score: 2

Blue (Screen of Death) ?
by PieterGen on Mon 25th Mar 2013 11:01 UTC
PieterGen
Member since:
2012-01-13

I hear "Windows Blue Screen of Death" when they say Windows Blue. Or is that just me?

Reply Score: 3

JohnJJ
Member since:
2011-01-28

If they add support for Metro on multiple monitors, virtual metro screens and the ability to stack vertically then I might consider using it for my normal dev setup, provided that I could mix normal desktop apps & Metro apps in my tiling.

Reply Score: 3

windows 1.0
by mnezh on Mon 25th Mar 2013 13:25 UTC
mnezh
Member since:
2011-09-02
Comment by sgtarky
by sgtarky on Mon 25th Mar 2013 13:31 UTC
sgtarky
Member since:
2006-01-02

I have been using windows since 3.1, last fall I bought a macbook pro and I love it, sure there were some issues getting use to UI but for the most part you can figure it out. window8 not so much. unfortunately my wife had to get a new laptop this week with win8 got it dirt cheap tho.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Comment by sgtarky
by ebasconp on Tue 26th Mar 2013 02:25 UTC in reply to "Comment by sgtarky"
ebasconp Member since:
2006-05-09

Why was this comment voted down?

Reply Score: 2

All Screenshots
by theuserbl on Mon 25th Mar 2013 17:09 UTC
theuserbl
Member since:
2006-01-10

Here are all screenshots on one side:
http://winforum.eu/Temat-Dyskusja-o-Windows-Blue?page=11

Reply Score: 1

Video
by theuserbl on Mon 25th Mar 2013 17:13 UTC
theuserbl
Member since:
2006-01-10
VisualStudio
by ebasconp on Mon 25th Mar 2013 18:42 UTC
ebasconp
Member since:
2006-05-09

The Windows 8 UX team should talk with the Visual Studio guys in order to learn about how to tile, cascade, tab, dock, float, split or organize windows in a screen; maybe the former could learn something.

No kidding here; I do not know why the Visual Studio windows management was not adopted totally by Windows. It has one of the best windows management subsystem found out there.

Edited 2013-03-25 18:44 UTC

Reply Score: 3