Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 7th May 2013 22:46 UTC
Windows "After acknowledging its Windows Blue codename publicly in March, Microsoft is getting closer to revealing all about the upcoming Windows 8 update. In an interview with The Verge this week, Microsoft's Windows CFO Tami Reller provided some details on where the company is heading with its Blue project."
Order by: Score:
...
by Hiev on Tue 7th May 2013 23:30 UTC
Hiev
Member since:
2005-09-27

Despite all the criticism about Windows 8, I want to point out some virtues it has, I feel it faster and liter than Windows 7, I never had a problem with metro, I just learned to ignore it.

Reply Score: 3

RE: ...
by UltraZelda64 on Tue 7th May 2013 23:32 UTC in reply to "..."
UltraZelda64 Member since:
2006-12-05

It is faster, you're right on that, but it's impossible to ignore that damn "charms" bar. Obnoxious thing. And that massive pop-up clock.

Reply Score: 7

RE[2]: ...
by WorknMan on Wed 8th May 2013 00:38 UTC in reply to "RE: ..."
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

It is faster, you're right on that, but it's impossible to ignore that damn "charms" bar. Obnoxious thing. And that massive pop-up clock.


Actually, it isn't. Sometimes I see it when I close a window, but I don't even consciously see it anymore.

When it comes to Windows 8 and the missing Start button, I honestly do not understand what the problem is, even if you don't use Metro. To me, it's just a bunch of irrational hate. I think most people spent much more time bitching about the missing start menu than they would've just installing a free replacement and getting on with their lives.

At any rate, if you're still using the Start menu in 2013, you really are doing it the hard way. What I have been doing for years is to pin my most frequently launched apps on the quick launch toolbar (most people will use that shitty Win7 taskbar), and for everything else, I just hit Winkey and start typing, and it's selected in a second or two. And this is actually faster to do in Windows 8 than it was in 7. There's absolutely no reason to bring up the Start menu or the Metro start screen and manually start scanning for apps.

Edited 2013-05-08 00:39 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: ...
by WereCatf on Wed 8th May 2013 02:00 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: ..."
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

and for everything else, I just hit Winkey and start typing, and it's selected in a second or two. And this is actually faster to do in Windows 8 than it was in 7. There's absolutely no reason to bring up the Start menu or the Metro start screen and manually start scanning for apps.


That's your preference, but many people find it simply quite jarring for the Start screen to take over the whole desktop every single time you just want to open an app -- the old Start menu only covers a small portion of the screen and is quite a bit less jarring an experience. Also, searching for what you want to launch only works if you already know what it's called; the old Start menu is much more discoverable if you do not know or remember what to specifically search for.

Reply Score: 12

RE[3]: ...
by edwdig on Wed 8th May 2013 02:43 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: ..."
edwdig Member since:
2005-08-22

It sounds like your needs are fairly simple. I've got my most frequently used things pinned to the task bar, with some common but less frequently used stuff pinned to the Start Menu.

The left side of the Start Menu is also great for things I don't use very often, but tend to go to a lot on the days I do need them.

The right side of the Start Menu is great for quick access to frequently access locations.

Start -> Switch User is great for shared computers.

For rarely used thing I don't know the exact name of, the Win 7 Start Menu is much faster to browse than the Metro Start Screen.

Ultimately, Win8 isn't completely broken. It does the job and I could work with it if necessary. The big problem is that it just doesn't do anything better than Win7, but does a lot of things worse.

Also, yes, I've heard people say Win8 is faster. If it is, it's not perceptibly so on a recent computer. If anything, to me, a fresh Win7 install feels faster than a fresh Win8 install. I suspect most of the supposed speed improvements are comparing a fresh install of Win8 to a several year old Win7 install.

Reply Score: 9

RE[4]: ...
by WorknMan on Wed 8th May 2013 03:32 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: ..."
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

Ultimately, Win8 isn't completely broken. It does the job and I could work with it if necessary. The big problem is that it just doesn't do anything better than Win7


Actually, it does:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Features_new_to_Windows_8

As for the start menu, maybe I'm in the minority, but I've never been in there hunting for an app I didn't know the name of. And I've got 40+ apps installed. *shrug* At any rate, in the Windows 8 start screen, you can remove the metro crap, reorder the icons in any way you like, and you can even separate apps into groups if you want.

IDK, even if it's a little more inconvenient than the old start menu, seems like a whole lot of bitching about nothing. With the amount of nerd rage being spewed over the issue, you'd think they removed the fucking task bar completely ;)

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: ...
by Nelson on Wed 8th May 2013 04:00 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: ..."
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

You're right. People just need a wedge issue to beat Microsoft over the head with. This start menu fiasco has never been about genuine user difficulty. Its been about finding an effective way to turn Windows 8 into a whipping boy.

If you find yourself reading these long, passionate, drawn out posts by the usual suspects -- you'd almost scratch your head at the silliness of what they're complaining about. You'd think that they run Windows 8 daily or something.

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: ...
by jared_wilkes on Wed 8th May 2013 17:36 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: ..."
jared_wilkes Member since:
2011-04-25

Try to tell that to a user that has no idea how to simply shut their computer off anymore.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: ...
by WorknMan on Wed 8th May 2013 21:01 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: ..."
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

Try to tell that to a user that has no idea how to simply shut their computer off anymore.


CTRL+ALT+DEL - look on the bottom/right. Same thing was possible on Windows 7.

Edited 2013-05-08 21:01 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: ...
by Nelson on Wed 8th May 2013 22:48 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: ..."
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

You're right, the placement of the shut down button is stupid and confusing. The same goes for a lot of other things, and I think a reasonable discussion can be had there.

To me though there's a difference between a discussion in which both sides are actively listening, and me hearing regurgitated Metro hate from someone who hasn't used it before.

I'm glad to talk about legitimate issues, and the shut down thing is getting better with Blue, but it is unacceptable that it was this hard in the first place.

Other things like the discoverability of the Charms bar are concrete issues. I've also heard great feed back around being able to quickly collapse and filter through groups of apps in the "All Apps" menu.

I think that even if people hate Metro, they can appreciate Microsoft moving to a yearly release cadence for Windows. Previously, we would've had to sit tight for three years until the next major version of Windows to get concrete changes based off of feedback.

I really think that an improved Metro shell + Boot to Desktop and a Start Button anchor (Along with obvious usability fixes mentioned above, and the Search Charm not going full screen anymore) should help solve a lot of the learning curve that users experienced.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: ...
by tonny on Thu 9th May 2013 00:59 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: ..."
tonny Member since:
2011-12-22

IDK, even if it's a little more inconvenient than the old start menu, seems like a whole lot of bitching about nothing. With the amount of nerd rage being spewed over the issue, you'd think they removed the f--king task bar completely ;)

I want to write a program, and they how-to's in a pdf. I've metro pdf reader and non metro notepad++. My monitor is 1920x1080. I want to open the pdf side-by-side with my notepad++. Can you teach me how?

Edited 2013-05-09 00:59 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: ...
by UltraZelda64 on Wed 8th May 2013 06:59 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: ..."
UltraZelda64 Member since:
2006-12-05

Oh, trust me, I used to use the Quick Launch bar myself. But true to its name, it's good as a quick program launcher... and I don't need such immediate and frequent access to, for example, CCleaner or a disk defragmenter. I tended to keep my QL toolbar pretty minimal, typically housing only my five or six top-used programs, maybe eight at times. The rest were easily and still quite quickly started from the Start menu.

I have experimented here and there with cleaning out the menu (removing links to web pages, documentation, etc. and getting rid of extra directories in the menu tree) after seeing Linux's comparatively clean application menus. The Start menu worked just fine--I would hardly call it the "hard way." It works, and IMO it works well. Sure, it would be nice if it was cleaner by default (all that crap I mentioned removing, there is no need for every single software installer to create its own cascading menu entry for example), but still.

Similarly, I actually *liked* Windows 7's implementation of the taskbar, but I never considered it a real alternative or replacement of the Start menu. I would never have the entire thing lined from left to right full of program icons, that's just clutter. It's bad enough so many people seem to do that on their desktops with icons all over the place, the taskbar is not a good place to just shove everything either.

Edited 2013-05-08 06:59 UTC

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: ...
by andrewclunn on Wed 8th May 2013 16:09 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: ..."
andrewclunn Member since:
2012-11-05

Heaven forbid some people desire to operate their machine with a mouse and not use the keyboard for anything other than typing.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: ...
by silviucc on Wed 8th May 2013 18:12 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: ..."
silviucc Member since:
2009-12-05

You don't get what's so hard? Fine here are a few tidbits:

1) want to use the default OS supplied email client? Fullscreen app in your face
2) Want to view a PDF file? Another fullscreen app in your face
3) The same for calendar and web search.

These are just a few that popped in my face just in the first 10 minutes of using the "wonder OS". It is annoying. No, scratch that. It is pissing me off. Makes me scream. I do not want that on my friggin desktop. Nor do I want to install other applications to do the above when there are already programs with the same functionality on my system. There is no good reason why the PDF viewer and an email program and an IDE can't stand side by side on the same screen (provided the screen is big enough and it usually is for desktops)

All this so that MS can push their idiotic agenda. The "pie in the sky OS" to magically solve all their problems (like Ballmer being a moron).

They (MS) have not learned anything. In a NYT interview Mrs whatshername even insults desktop users by saying "we need to learn faster". WTF? It's not me that made Windows 8 a retarded OS, it's them. Don't shift your problems on to us.

Please MS, less marketing talk and more work fixing the mess you've made.

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: ...
by WorknMan on Wed 8th May 2013 21:00 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: ..."
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

1) want to use the default OS supplied email client? Fullscreen app in your face
2) Want to view a PDF file? Another fullscreen app in your face
3) The same for calendar and web search.


Sure, you have to re-associate a few programs, but I had to do that in Windows 7 anyway, esp since Win7 didn't have defaults for a lot of these apps, and the ones it did have defaults for sucked ass. So in this regard, nothing really has changed.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: ...
by silviucc on Wed 8th May 2013 21:03 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: ..."
silviucc Member since:
2009-12-05

They had the chance to do things right so... they went for the "even more retarded" option because "Metro iz da shizzle".

Meh.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: ...
by galvanash on Wed 8th May 2013 23:52 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: ..."
galvanash Member since:
2006-01-25

When it comes to Windows 8 and the missing Start button, I honestly do not understand what the problem is, even if you don't use Metro. To me, it's just a bunch of irrational hate.


Personally, I think it has less to do with the start button being missing and more to do with WHY the start button is missing...

It wasn't done for technical reasons, it wasn't done to solve a problem, and it wasn't done to make users happy... It was done as a way to force users to adopt a new feature.

The problem is if you are going to force your users into doing something a different way, you better be damn sure most of them are going to like it...

They could have, from day one, made the start button, the charms bar, and everything that goes with it optional - that is patently obvious to anyone with two braincells to rub together. They didn't because they wanted to force user adoption...

Consumers know that most companies treat them like sheep. But they don't like it being made so blatantly obvious when they are being herded...

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: ...
by Alfman on Thu 9th May 2013 01:53 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: ..."
Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

galvanash,

"Personally, I think it has less to do with the start button being missing and more to do with WHY the start button is missing..."

I'd +1 your whole post if I could.

"They could have, from day one, made the start button, the charms bar, and everything that goes with it optional - that is patently obvious to anyone with two braincells to rub together. They didn't because they wanted to force user adoption..."


Yea, just listen to the lawyer-speak here:

Reller admits that the company has heard the cries for a Start button. "We have heard that, we definitely have heard that and taken that into account," she explains. "We've really also tried to understand what people are really asking for when they're asking for that."



Wow, how dumb do they want us to think they are that they cannot understand what people want when they ask for the start button back? Regardless of whether one likes metro or not, anyone with a brain who's used windows in the past decade should at least understand what they're asking for even if they disagree with it.

It'd almost be better if they were honest and said "look guys, we KNOW what you want, but it goes against our new business model that we want you to buy into, so shut your traps because you are not getting your previous start button back".

Edited 2013-05-09 02:04 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: ...
by galvanash on Thu 9th May 2013 02:38 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: ..."
galvanash Member since:
2006-01-25

Wow, how dumb do they want us to think they are that they cannot understand what people want when they ask for the start button back? Regardless of whether one likes metro or not, anyone with a brain who's used windows in the past decade should at least understand what they're asking for even if they disagree with it.


Exactly. Im actually a fan of metro, at least in certain usage scenarios. Its a good attempt at UI simplification, and for inexperienced users or users who are primarily interested in performing simple tasks, playing a game now and then, or media viewing I think it hits a bullseye. I actually do hope it catches on. I never saw it as a replacement for a conventional desktop UI for keyboard/mouse users though - augmenting it for certain use cases yes, replacing it... no (at least not in its current state).

That said, Microsoft never really tried to sell it on their userbase - they just shoved it down everyones throat... That pissed me off too, because I thought it was actually pretty good and I was hoping they would have taken more time trying to convince their users it was good (by giving them some time to get to know it). How can anyone like something when they know from day one they have no choice in the matter? Sure, after a while you might learn to like it - but initially you will automatically hate it because it is being forced on you.

They completely ignored 20 years of learned behavior in their userbase, threw away the most intrinsic UI element in their OS - really its most identifiable feature, and they did it brutally with no reverence for their own product... All that just to (imo) prop up a new revenue model and to help sell some new gadgets (surface).

I'm not mad at the people who hate metro - I'm mad at Microsoft for f*cking up its launch...

Edited 2013-05-09 02:44 UTC

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: ...
by sgtarky on Sun 12th May 2013 00:17 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: ..."
sgtarky Member since:
2006-01-02

lol I gave up the start menu in 2012. i use a dock and finder

Reply Score: 1

RE: ...
by some1 on Wed 8th May 2013 03:13 UTC in reply to "..."
some1 Member since:
2010-10-05

and liter

You mean "litter."

Reply Score: 6

RE: ...
by Lennie on Wed 8th May 2013 15:06 UTC in reply to "..."
Lennie Member since:
2007-09-22

It feels faster, but needs more memory to run than Windows 7.

Reply Score: 2

HELLO, Microsoft!
by UltraZelda64 on Tue 7th May 2013 23:31 UTC
UltraZelda64
Member since:
2006-12-05

Although Microsoft isn't listing the exact feedback, Reller admits that the company has heard the cries for a Start button. "We have heard that, we definitely have heard that and taken that into account," she explains. "We've really also tried to understand what people are really asking for when they're asking for that."

This is not rocket science; there is no deeper meaning to it. When people say they want their "Start button" back it's really quite simple. They want their fucking Start menu back, accessible in the same way it has been for over 15 years, by clicking a button in the corner. There is no deeper meaning to it than that, so quit trying to search for one, because you'll just come up with yet another *new* concept that will just piss even more people off and cause even more confusion.

Just admit you were wrong and bring the god damn thing back already.

Reply Score: 19

RE: HELLO, Microsoft!
by lucas_maximus on Tue 7th May 2013 23:34 UTC in reply to "HELLO, Microsoft!"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18
RE[2]: HELLO, Microsoft!
by Alfman on Wed 8th May 2013 00:24 UTC in reply to "RE: HELLO, Microsoft!"
Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

+1, that's hilarious!

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: HELLO, Microsoft!
by lucas_maximus on Wed 8th May 2013 01:23 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: HELLO, Microsoft!"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

And true.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: HELLO, Microsoft!
by UltraZelda64 on Wed 8th May 2013 07:07 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: HELLO, Microsoft!"
UltraZelda64 Member since:
2006-12-05

Yeah, that was a pretty good one actually. What's bad is that Microsoft themselves pretty much "invented" the Start button (not literally, but no one else labeled theirs "Start" ;) )... and now, they're talking as if they're so ignorant that they don't even know what the thing is when people ask for it back. I mean, seriously--that quote just reeks of WTF. It sounds like she's completely out of touch with reality. All she has to do is a quick Google (okay, Bing) search on Windows 8 and see all the complaints regarding the Start button/menu/screen.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: HELLO, Microsoft!
by lucas_maximus on Wed 8th May 2013 07:10 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: HELLO, Microsoft!"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

I think you really didn't get the point the cartoon was talking about.

Customers are rarely right when it comes to actually specifying requirements and this is why Business Analysts Exist. There is a mis-match between what people optimally need and what they specify.

Edited 2013-05-08 07:12 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE[6]: HELLO, Microsoft!
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Wed 8th May 2013 12:55 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: HELLO, Microsoft!"
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

Well, I think the biggest problem is that there isn't a definition for optimal. Pretend for a second that it could be mathematically proved that Vim was the most efficient way to edit text possible. However, most people when first using it get stuck trying to figure out how to actually edit text... There is a certain amount of learning that has to take place ( in our scenario) to learn how to use it in the most efficient manner. So part of the argument of efficiency has to be the learning curve. There could be many more factors as well, such as document compatibility, maintenance, and so forth.

So the truth in that cartoon, is really reflecting that. The customer doesn't always even know what requirements for retraining they have for a new system. I think Microsofts error here ( assuming that they are 100% correct, and have designed a perfect UI), is that many vocal people don't want to accept any retraining. Of course, this argument is also used by developers of new systems in cases where even after retraining the new system is much worse than the previous.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: HELLO, Microsoft!
by lucas_maximus on Wed 8th May 2013 19:06 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: HELLO, Microsoft!"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

I think that is down to designers not developers how users interact with the system.

Vim and developer tools are a special exception because they are used by those that usually have an advanced understand of how the system works.

Anyway I would leave this here:

http://ontwik.com/ui/design-processes-not-interfaces-tiffany-conroy...

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: HELLO, Microsoft!
by Alfman on Wed 8th May 2013 14:09 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: HELLO, Microsoft!"
Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

It's equally true to say microsoft wants to deliver something other than what customers want... think about how much easier things would be for everyone if microsoft just listened without trying to spin everything into customers demanding metro. MS is being completely disingenuous.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: HELLO, Microsoft!
by lucas_maximus on Wed 8th May 2013 18:57 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: HELLO, Microsoft!"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Except most customers don't know what they want. As another said we would still have blackberry's with keyboards if that was true.

Sorry a lot of products have come out recently that wouldn't have succeeded if we actually took customers literally.

Also this is the first version of Windows with a new paradigm ... how many complaints were there about the iPhone and Android at version 1?

Edited 2013-05-08 19:02 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: HELLO, Microsoft!
by Fergy on Wed 8th May 2013 21:27 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: HELLO, Microsoft!"
Fergy Member since:
2006-04-10

I think you really didn't get the point the cartoon was talking about.

Customers are rarely right when it comes to actually specifying requirements and this is why Business Analysts Exist. There is a mis-match between what people optimally need and what they specify.

I disagree. If a customer has used X in the past and it was in product Y he knows what he wants. Now a new product Y is released but X is nowhere to be found. The customer complains that this was the reason why he bought product Y. If he couldn't get X why wouldn't he just go to a competitor Z? Maybe competitor Z will listen to the customer.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: HELLO, Microsoft!
by Soulbender on Thu 9th May 2013 04:45 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: HELLO, Microsoft!"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

and this is why Business Analysts Exist.


To create irrational hype that it's impossible to live up to?

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: HELLO, Microsoft!
by Nelson on Wed 8th May 2013 07:16 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: HELLO, Microsoft!"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Often, people don't know what they want or don't want what they think they want.

Customer feedback is definitely an important part of the loop, but far from the only consideration.

I wish companies took hard stances more often, we need principled vision and direction.

If we listened to customers 100%, the iPhone would have a physical keyboard.

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: HELLO, Microsoft!
by tidux on Wed 8th May 2013 13:29 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: HELLO, Microsoft!"
tidux Member since:
2011-08-13

I don't see a downside to that. My Android phone has a physical keyboard as well as a full touchscreen and it's great.

Reply Score: 6

RE[6]: HELLO, Microsoft!
by Alfman on Wed 8th May 2013 14:24 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: HELLO, Microsoft!"
Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

Nelson,

"If we listened to customers 100%, the iPhone would have a physical keyboard."

Why is it always made out to be all or nothing? Some customers want keyboards, others don't. It's best for all users to make the choice for themselves. When we're talking about hardware, that can be genuinely difficult to accommodate. But here MS has no excuses, we're talking about something that's not only so simple and trivial to do, but was actually present in the registry of the first public beta of windows 8 before they removed it.

Giving users the option to configure their desktop is a good thing and doesn't make windows 8 worse for metro users. MS revoked that because their long term vision is to make the desktop legacy (which they openly admit) and push users into metro where MS becomes the gatekeeper through which all software must be purchased. Making users use metro for launching applications is the first step in that plan.

Reply Score: 7

RE[7]: HELLO, Microsoft!
by Nelson on Wed 8th May 2013 23:00 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: HELLO, Microsoft!"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29


Why is it always made out to be all or nothing? Some customers want keyboards, others don't. It's best for all users to make the choice for themselves. When we're talking about hardware, that can be genuinely difficult to accommodate.


I agree with you here, and I'll admit I've evolved a little on this issue. Microsoft was surprisingly absolute about their direction with Windows 8. In retrospect and put into historical context, its out of character for them.

That said, there is an opposing point of view in that new features introduce new complexities and feature creep is a very real danger. I think Microsoft wouldn't be hurt by adding opt-out support to some of the features of Windows 8.

Boot to Desktop is something I'd be in favor of so long as it was mandated that it be a user choice, not a flag that OEMs could toggle and ship as-is. That way the power users retain the ability to turn it off, and enterprises can turn it off using a group policy until they roll out Windows Store enterprise stuff.


But here MS has no excuses, we're talking about something that's not only so simple and trivial to do, but was actually present in the registry of the first public beta of windows 8 before they removed it.


The Start Menu I'm less enthusiastic about bringing back. The Desktop is an obvious paradigm shift that won't match 1:1 with Metro, so it makes sense to offer a toggle there.

However the Start Menu serves a purpose that could be provided by the Start Screen. If it doesn't work as well as users want, make it incorporate what users like about the Start Menu.

Do people want the Start Menu for the Instant Search that's not full screen? Because Search results in Blue are now inline instead of full screen. Do they miss collapsable menus?

Why can't Metro apps be pinned to the Taskbar? That's another huge miss. Windows 8 is a transitional release with few transitional features, and that's the biggest issue with it at the moment. If Microsoft can smooth over the rough spots in Blue they can go along way towards fixing what's wrong.


Giving users the option to configure their desktop is a good thing and doesn't make windows 8 worse for metro users. MS revoked that because their long term vision is to make the desktop legacy (which they openly admit) and push users into metro where MS becomes the gatekeeper through which all software must be purchased.


Well I'm biased because I'm a Windows Store developer, so this is a huge issue for me and why I was against Boot to Desktop in the first place.

They'll kill the Windows Store before it gets a chance to grow if they take enough eyeballs off of it.

This could be fixed by having a "Windows Store" shortcut pinned to the Taskbar, no?

And for crying out loud, we need a more extensive "First Run" tutorial. Something way more than a 15 second video shown exactly once.

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: HELLO, Microsoft!
by dragossh on Wed 8th May 2013 15:21 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: HELLO, Microsoft!"
dragossh Member since:
2008-12-16

Customer feedback is definitely an important part of the loop, but far from the only consideration.

I wish companies took hard stances more often, we need principled vision and direction.


Companies exist to make money, and part of making money is listening to your consumers and not treating them like they're stupid. Principled vision and direction is good when it aligns with consumers' interests (like the iPhone), but not so when consumers don't want or need your products like with Windows Phone and Windows 8. Trying to stick with your vision when it's clearly clashing with what your customers want (e.g. "not an innefficient Metro UI on the desktop") is foolish.

If we listened to customers 100%, the iPhone would have a physical keyboard.


The iPhone won not due to Apple pursuing its vision without any regard to customers' demands. It won because it offered simply a stellar touch experience with a full web browser and connectivity and an integrated iPod, unlike any other phone on the market in 2007. Along the way Apple kept improving the design and tweaking the OS to incorporate consumer feedback in a sensible and reasonable way.

Microsoft on the other hand comes out with an OS that doesn't improve the state of desktop OSes by much, tries to force a tablet UI on it without any regard to usability and efficiency on big screens and powerful CPUs, and is surprised that users reject it. They should listen to their users like they did with Windows 7 and then everybody would be happy.

Now you and Microsoft might see things differently, since both of you want Metro to succeed and the Store to be profitable, but keep in mind that most users don't have this vested interest and don't care for Metro. They want their efficient tools back, not help Microsoft in its attempts to overtake Apple.

Reply Score: 5

RE[6]: HELLO, Microsoft!
by phoenix on Wed 8th May 2013 16:11 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: HELLO, Microsoft!"
phoenix Member since:
2005-07-11

I would actually line up to purchase an iPhone with a physical keyboard.

Or any kind of Android "flagship" phone with a physical keyboard.

Heck, I'd even consider a Windows Phone if there was one with a physical keyboard.

:)

Reply Score: 5

RE[6]: HELLO, Microsoft!
by StephenBeDoper on Thu 9th May 2013 01:17 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: HELLO, Microsoft!"
StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

Customer feedback is definitely an important part of the loop, but far from the only consideration.

I wish companies took hard stances more often, we need principled vision and direction.


That's great, except it doesn't really apply to Windows 8 & the start screen. It's a an attempt to artificially create a halo effect - with the goal of making Windows Phone/RT successful on the coattails of desktop Windows' dominance. And as far as motivations for UI design decisions go, that's one of the worst I can think of. That's not principled, it's just heavy-handed.

And that's the most generous explanation I can think of. I have a hard time believing that anyone working at Microsoft is genuinely stupid enough to think that a touch-centric phone/tablet UI is the best/most appropriate interface to use as the primary task launcher for a desktop OS. From a basic UI consistency standpoint, it makes as much sense as the Start button launching a fullscreen DOS prompt with an arrow key-driven text menu to launch applications - that wouldn't make it seem any less unpolished.

The hell of it is, I wouldn't mind metro on desktop versions of Windows if only Microsoft weren't so obviously trying to cram it down users' throats. The lack of any built-in option to revert to the Win7 start menu is largely unprecedented for Window releases - every version since 95 has had the option to make the start menu work like the previous versions, ditto for most other major UI changes over the years.

If they'd just made Metro optional, I would have been perfectly fine with that (and I think many others are in the same camp). Make it smart enough to detect when the screen has been removed from the dock on Transformer-like devices, and automatically switch into Metro/tablet mode? Great, fine by me. Use Metro on the destkop as an optional widget layer, a la Dashboard on OS X? Also great, hell I'd probably use it for that purpose - a nice fullscreen, distraction free environment for writing and such.

But as the primary task-launching interface - why? Really, what was wrong with the Windows 7 start menu that warranted replacing it outright? Or at the very least, what warranted completely excising it, to the point of having no first-party option to revert to the old start menu? The thing that makes it particularly galling for me is that, IMO, Windows 7 was the first time MS actually got the start menu right... and then they immediately proceeded to throw out most of it with the next release.

If we listened to customers 100%, the iPhone would have a physical keyboard.


And if we didn't listen to customers, then DivX would have supplanted DVD.

I'm going to also address another comment that you made in this thread:

You're right. People just need a wedge issue to beat Microsoft over the head with. This start menu fiasco has never been about genuine user difficulty. Its been about finding an effective way to turn Windows 8 into a whipping boy.


I think that's part of it, yes, but far from being the entire story. For example, before Windows 7 came out, the taskbar changes were similarly controversial. But that largely died down after people actually used the new taskbar and found it to be an improvement - or at least not a significant step backwards.

Painting all critics of the start screen with the same broad brush is no different from claiming that everyone hates the start screen. Both are over-broad, absolutist generalisations that don't stand up to even the most basic tests of intellectual rigour. Statistical analysis has value, certainly - but it's the height of arrogant presumption to leap from that to acting as if Microsoft, or you, know how everyone ought to use their computer better than they do.

Prior to Windows 8, that's probably the best thing I could say about Microsoft: whatever other problems existed with their software, they were always good about providing users with options and multiple ways to accomplish most tasks. Which I always found to be in stark contrast to the more paternalistic attitude behind Apple software (we have decreed that this is the best way to perform this particular task, so we're not going to give you any other way to do it). Lately, though, Microsoft seems hellbent on copying every bad idea that Apple ever had.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: HELLO, Microsoft!
by cb88 on Wed 8th May 2013 04:07 UTC in reply to "RE: HELLO, Microsoft!"
cb88 Member since:
2009-04-23

My coworker has that on her cubicle wall ;) ... we work at a government contractor of couse ;)

Reply Score: 3

RE: HELLO, Microsoft!
by darknexus on Wed 8th May 2013 06:42 UTC in reply to "HELLO, Microsoft!"
darknexus Member since:
2008-07-15

This is not rocket science; there is no deeper meaning to it. When people say they want their "Start button" back it's really quite simple. They want their fucking Start menu back, accessible in the same way it has been for over 15 years, by clicking a button in the corner. There is no deeper meaning to it than that, so quit trying to search for one, because you'll just come up with yet another *new* concept that will just piss even more people off and cause even more confusion.

Gotta love pr speak, eh? Translation: yeah we hear it, but we don't give a shit what you want, so we're going to do what we want anyway and act like we give a damn. Hmm, come to think of it, these PR people would make good politicians and probably get paid more.

Just admit you were wrong and bring the god damn thing back already.

We are the Microsoft. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. We know what's best for you. We are never wrong.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: HELLO, Microsoft!
by UltraZelda64 on Wed 8th May 2013 20:14 UTC in reply to "RE: HELLO, Microsoft!"
UltraZelda64 Member since:
2006-12-05

Very true... the old "act dumb yet sincerely concerned" trick.

Reply Score: 1

Ha
by p13. on Wed 8th May 2013 06:59 UTC
p13.
Member since:
2005-07-10

People don't like <dramatic> change.
Cue the whole ubuntu/unity mess.

2 cents ahead ...
I'm not a fan of windows 8. I think they should just strip the whole metro/modern/whatever monstrosity and call the release "We're really sorry, but this is what windows 7 should have been - ultimate".
Windows 8 has some nice performance improvements. It's memory footprint is better.

I like metro on windows phone. I think it looks nice, and it's easy to use.
Pure metro on a tablet would also be nice (what windows RT should have been).

BUT ...

They're sort of trying to converge the two ... and it's not working.

People don't want tablet stuff on their desktop, nor do they want desktop stuff on their tablet.
Give it up already, microsoft.
You've built your entire market share on backwards compatibility and familiarity. Stop trying to be relevant in ways you cannot.

Stop trying to "innovate" where people just expect things to work. Look at what Apple gets right most of the time. They -mostly- try to stay out of their users' ways. (Horrible, evil DRM-Appstore walled garden and stuff let aside)

-Kevin

Edited 2013-05-08 07:04 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE: Ha
by Lennie on Wed 8th May 2013 15:14 UTC in reply to "Ha"
Lennie Member since:
2007-09-22

"It's memory footprint is better"

Maybe with running applications, but not with just a base install. At least that's what I've seen.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Ha
by modmans2ndcoming on Thu 9th May 2013 11:21 UTC in reply to "RE: Ha"
modmans2ndcoming Member since:
2005-11-09

there is a difference between storage (the install) and memory.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Ha
by Lennie on Thu 9th May 2013 11:27 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Ha"
Lennie Member since:
2007-09-22

Sorry, I was unclear.

With base install, I meant the memory usage of a running Windows installation, after having been installed with the default applications.

In that case Windows 8 needs more memory to run than Windows 7.

Some people may claim Windows 8 runs better on the same amount of memory.

This might be true, I don't know, maybe Windows 8 does something smarter with the memory of running applications. I wouldn't know.

All I know is, Windows 7 needs less memory to run without applications.

Reply Score: 2

I've heard this before
by Chrispynutt on Wed 8th May 2013 08:26 UTC
Chrispynutt
Member since:
2012-03-14

Starting to draw parallels between this and the Mass Effect 3 ending. Bioware said all the right things; "we are listening", "we understand your concerns", etc.

What did we get, expanded versions of the same stupid ending and the ability to lose the game.

I will be very surprised in MS does 'fix' Windows 8. The real start menu won't return, just a shortcut to it and the ability to load directly into the desktop.

This is not the same as having the Metro stuff ignorable like Windows Media Centre.

Reply Score: 2

CFO
by Soulbender on Thu 9th May 2013 04:43 UTC
Soulbender
Member since:
2005-08-18

I can't help but wonder why the CFO is the one talking about the technical direction of Blue.

Reply Score: 3