Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 17:29 UTC
Games

As we've been working on bringing Steam to the living room, we've come to the conclusion that the environment best suited to delivering value to customers is an operating system built around Steam itself. SteamOS combines the rock-solid architecture of Linux with a gaming experience built for the big screen. It will be available soon as a free stand-alone operating system for living room machines.

Valve goes beyond just building a Linux distribution and grafting Steam on top of it. They are actually working very closely with hardware manufacturers and game developers, which has already resulted in graphics performance improvements. They are also working on reducing input latency as well as audio performance. In other words, they are very serious about upending Windows as the default PC gaming operating system.

In SteamOS, we have achieved significant performance increases in graphics processing, and we're now targeting audio performance and reductions in input latency at the operating system level. Game developers are already taking advantage of these gains as they target SteamOS for their new releases.

Valve also unveiled that it's working with the major game developers so that triple-A titles will be natively available on SteamOS. As for your existing Windows games - SteamOS will support game streaming from your existing PC so you can play them on your SteamOS machine in the living room (or anywhere else, of course). 'Hundreds of great games' are already available natively on Linux through Steam, too.

This is just the first in a series of three announcements, and it stands to reason that the second one will be a dedicated SteamOS machine from Valve. The third announcement? Well. It's got a three in it, so Half-Life 3 is pretty much confirmed.

Order by: Score:
Yup
by judgen on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 17:36 UTC
judgen
Member since:
2006-07-12

I hope the release is imminent. I would love to try it out.

Reply Score: 3

Next card, Microsoft?
by zcal on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 17:38 UTC
zcal
Member since:
2012-07-27

My, how the tables are turning.

Reply Score: 12

v RE: Next card, Microsoft?
by lucas_maximus on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 17:46 UTC in reply to "Next card, Microsoft?"
RE[2]: Next card, Microsoft?
by judgen on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 17:48 UTC in reply to "RE: Next card, Microsoft?"
judgen Member since:
2006-07-12

Why would it not? Most MacOS X ports from EA and many others already runs via Cider. Look in the package contents in OSX game titles. Nothing stops Steam from doing the same thing for older titles as a stopgap.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Next card, Microsoft?
by lucas_maximus on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 18:06 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Next card, Microsoft?"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Development houses will be lazy and use the compatibility layer. Trust me I am a developer with very little time, I use a compatibility layer quite often on older because I am not allowed to spend time updating it.

Edited 2013-09-23 18:06 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Next card, Microsoft?
by protomank on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 23:45 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Next card, Microsoft?"
protomank Member since:
2006-08-03

That is why Valve invested in SDl. For me, it is the best "compatibility layer" over there. The speed issues of 1.2 version should be fixed on the 2.0 release that was financed by, no other than.. Valve.

With SDL I ported my little Megaman like game (rockbot.upperland.net) from Linux to Windows, Playstation 2, Dingux/Dingoo, Pandora, Android and PSP. I had a port for Nintendo DS (abandoned only because of RAM limits), and have plans to port to XBox original, Dreamcast, Wii, Gamecube... In most cases, I the only work I have is to add a ifdef on the key mapping and voilá.

If someone with resources port officially SDL to newer consoles (PS3, XBox 360, PS4, XBox One) it could raise the lib to a new patamar, and could end the porting barrier, in theory, to the benefit the most open of all those market-like systems, that is Steam.

Reply Score: 7

RE[2]: Next card, Microsoft?
by WereCatf on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 17:49 UTC in reply to "RE: Next card, Microsoft?"
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

* Most of the games that are going to be released you might as well pick up a console instead of connecting a PC to TV, because you will have a more consistent experience with a console and the last time I picked up a media PC (Asus Revo) with half decent specs (can run Call of Duty 4 level graphics smoothly at decent detail) cost more than a console and I had to buy an additional wireless controller ...


And how is that comparable to SteamOS and/or Steambox? The PC you bought quite likely wasn't optimized for gaming nor was it running an OS that specifically designed for such a task.

Reply Score: 11

RE[3]: Next card, Microsoft?
by lucas_maximus on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 17:51 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Next card, Microsoft?"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

And how is that comparable to SteamOS and/or Steambox? The PC you bought quite likely wasn't optimized for gaming nor was it running an OS that specifically designed for such a task.


Gaming isn't the most intensive task you can do a computer contrary to popular belief.

Crysis 3 running at Ultra-settings is the only game that even stresses my CPU and my CPU is a first or second gen core 2 duo.

Edited 2013-09-23 17:53 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Next card, Microsoft?
by WereCatf on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 17:52 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Next card, Microsoft?"
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

And yet none of that answers the question.

Reply Score: 6

RE[5]: Next card, Microsoft?
by lucas_maximus on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 18:00 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Next card, Microsoft?"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Yes it did.

I am running the latest general purpose OS from Microsoft on old hardware and the most graphically intensive game that you can buy doesn't even stress the hardware.

You know what does stress the hardware ... Supreme Commander because most of the workload is CPU based.

It matters more what the workload is rather than the OS, because both modern Windows and the Linux kernels use x86 quite efficiently.

I suppose if you have an OS that has less services running and only a few programs running you might save on some RAM. But modern kit comes with 4GB - 8GB as a minimum.

Edited 2013-09-23 18:02 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: Next card, Microsoft?
by allanregistos on Tue 24th Sep 2013 00:49 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Next card, Microsoft?"
allanregistos Member since:
2011-02-10

Yes it did.

I am running the latest general purpose OS from Microsoft on old hardware and the most graphically intensive game that you can buy doesn't even stress the hardware.

You know what does stress the hardware ... Supreme Commander because most of the workload is CPU based.

It matters more what the workload is rather than the OS, because both modern Windows and the Linux kernels use x86 quite efficiently.

I suppose if you have an OS that has less services running and only a few programs running you might save on some RAM. But modern kit comes with 4GB - 8GB as a minimum.


Not an expert here, but running games is not all about how much RAM and CPU speed you have, but you need a high-end GPU to achieve maximum performance in combination with RAM/CPU. So try to set the maximum graphic resolution you have in your game and it will stress your GPU and not your CPU.

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: Next card, Microsoft?
by lucas_maximus on Tue 24th Sep 2013 07:20 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Next card, Microsoft?"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

The game doesn't max out my old 8800GT, everything is set on ultra, the games slows down when there are a lot of units on screen, I used to have the same in 2002 with Rome Total War, lots of units on screen slows down.

Strategy games are all CPU bound for the most part, FPS is GPU bound for the most part and what OS or whether it is optimized isn't going to suddenly change that.

Edited 2013-09-24 07:36 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Next card, Microsoft?
by No it isnt on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 20:10 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Next card, Microsoft?"
No it isnt Member since:
2005-11-14

And still plenty of games will stress my Geforce 770. Games are GPU dependent.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Next card, Microsoft?
by lucas_maximus on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 20:15 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Next card, Microsoft?"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

The point is as you were too thick to see it, is that the OS being "optimized" has little impact when both OSes are on the same arch, similar hardware and both kernels have had a lot of work done on working well on that platform.

I don't believe for a second the valve team have been able to do something so special with Linux and a regular x86 platform that it is suddenly going to be super fast compared to similar "regular" kit.

http://www.osnews.com/thread?572857

I mentioned supreme commander because if the number of units becomes very high the game lags like hell, and I over clocked the CPU by over a 1ghz to make it last until I can afford an i7/Xeon board. It totally dependent on the algorithms running in the game.

Rome Total War 2 for example, I can't run on this CPU but the graphics are mid ps3 quality.

Edited 2013-09-23 20:21 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Next card, Microsoft?
by allanregistos on Tue 24th Sep 2013 00:52 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Next card, Microsoft?"
allanregistos Member since:
2011-02-10

The point is as you were too thick to see it, is that the OS being "optimized" has little impact when both OSes are on the same arch, similar hardware and both kernels have had a lot of work done on working well on that platform.

I don't believe for a second the valve team have been able to do something so special with Linux and a regular x86 platform that it is suddenly going to be super fast compared to similar "regular" kit.


And you have no idea what this means: They are actually working very closely with hardware manufacturers and game developers,

Working closely meaning it includes improving Linux under the hood, graphics stack etc. It's special because they have the code. I don't know if you can do similar thing with Windows.

Reply Score: 10

RE[7]: Next card, Microsoft?
by lucas_maximus on Tue 24th Sep 2013 07:31 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Next card, Microsoft?"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

I am not making it a statement of fact that they can't optimise stuff.

I am asking how much difference will it realistically make, when my monitor can only show 60 frames per second?

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Next card, Microsoft?
by dpJudas on Tue 24th Sep 2013 02:07 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Next card, Microsoft?"
dpJudas Member since:
2009-12-10

Gaming isn't the most intensive task you can do a computer contrary to popular belief.

Crysis 3 running at Ultra-settings is the only game that even stresses my CPU and my CPU is a first or second gen core 2 duo.

And the reason for this is that all current gen games need to run on the Xbox 360 and the PS3. For similar reasons you can play all current gen games with 4 GB of memory with no problems as well. You'd be surprised at how awful specs those old dinosaur consoles actually have by todays standard.

Just wait until you see a game made for PS4 or the XB1. Your Core 2 duo will not be remotely able to run that at the graphical settings of those consoles.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Next card, Microsoft?
by aliquis on Thu 26th Sep 2013 22:54 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Next card, Microsoft?"
aliquis Member since:
2005-07-23

So what do you run?

Even Starcraft II would be very happy with a faster CPU. And that's three years old.

BF 4 recommended specs is a quad core Intel processor or six core AMD one. And it will use all 8 cores if you have them.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Next card, Microsoft?
by aliquis on Thu 26th Sep 2013 22:58 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Next card, Microsoft?"
aliquis Member since:
2005-07-23

He buys an Atom system with Nvidia ION and talks gaming and using the CPU.

Yeah, great creditability there.

Oh well, at least it was comparable to his consoles or whatever.

(Can it really run Crysis 3 on ultra? In what resolution and frame rate?)

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Next card, Microsoft?
by zcal on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 18:00 UTC in reply to "RE: Next card, Microsoft?"
zcal Member since:
2012-07-27

Yes, really. The focus of such a mammoth platform as Steam shifting away from Windows, no matter how long it takes, is a major threat to Microsoft's business.

Reply Score: 7

RE[3]: Next card, Microsoft?
by lucas_maximus on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 18:04 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Next card, Microsoft?"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Yes, really. The focus of such a mammoth platform as Steam shifting away from Windows, no matter how long it takes, is a major threat to Microsoft's business.


Lets see what actually happens because I haven't seen any numbers from valve on the number of new game purchases that have come from Linux users.

Edited 2013-09-23 18:07 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Next card, Microsoft?
by flypig on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 18:45 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Next card, Microsoft?"
flypig Member since:
2005-07-13

I've not seen numbers from Valve either, and it would be interesting to know. In the meantime, the following page gives the Humble Bundle statistics across the platforms.

http://support.humblebundle.com/customer/portal/articles/281031-pri...

This is jut for interest. Whether these are indicative of the numbers across Steam I wouldn't like to guess.

Reply Score: 5

RE[5]: Next card, Microsoft?
by lucas_maximus on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 18:56 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Next card, Microsoft?"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

The problem about using Humble Bundle purchases as a reference is that (to use a very English term) is a bit of a pissing match.

Reply Score: 0

RE[6]: Next card, Microsoft?
by flypig on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 20:01 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Next card, Microsoft?"
flypig Member since:
2005-07-13

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that. Do you mean that it's just a tiny amount compared to overall game purchases, or that the numbers are biased because people are trying to make a point?

One of the interesting things I notice about Humble Bundle is that many of the games are ported specifically to OSX and Linux purely for the scheme. It's not the major development studios of course, but this does suggest some motivation for them to do it. Or possibly that they're all incredibly philanthropic and just want to support charity!

Reply Score: 7

RE[7]: Next card, Microsoft?
by lucas_maximus on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 20:06 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Next card, Microsoft?"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

A pissing match is an English term for trying harder deliberately because you are trying to prove something against another group of people for the sake of it.

Linux evangelists typically tend to do this.

Reply Score: 0

RE[7]: Next card, Microsoft?
by oiaohm on Tue 24th Sep 2013 01:18 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Next card, Microsoft?"
oiaohm Member since:
2009-05-30

One of the interesting things I notice about Humble Bundle is that many of the games are ported specifically to OSX and Linux purely for the scheme. It's not the major development studios of course, but this does suggest some motivation for them to do it. Or possibly that they're all incredibly philanthropic and just want to support charity!


Its a warped one. Humble Bundle bundle without Linux has been done. Less Windows copies sold also windows users paid less per unit compared to bundles with Linux.

Seams like a percentage of Linux users buy twice. Once for Windows and Once for Linux or do have better word of mouth. Basically it something. Also the Linux users pay more per unit on average so everything lines up that removing Linux results in lower number of copies of windows and a lower windows unit price. Yes this is also reflected in Humble Bundle with Linux has a higher per unit price for the Windows copies.

So no its not philanthropic from the game makers. It suggests the Linux people are more philanthropic when there platform is supported.

The interest thing of Humble Bundle is the fact Linux users appear willing to pay twice once for a Windows copy and once for a Linux copy if they are running both OS's.

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: Next card, Microsoft?
by krinchan on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 18:57 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Next card, Microsoft?"
krinchan Member since:
2012-06-08

I agree with you both here and in the other thread. Gaming is not the behemoth hardware wise it once was. Also, Steam faces the same thing as any other platform: developers, developers, developers, developers. :-P

More in depth, we've hit a really fascinating inflection point in the gaming industry. Mobile phones are eating Nintendo's lunch. PC Gaming is making a resurgence due to budget builds actually, you know, running games that just came out.

Meanwhile in console gaming, there's a bit of a crisis building. While next-gen consoles are improving, they've sort of outpaced the living room theatres they're built for. HD is standard and QHD or 4K haven't really made a showing yet. As such, current gen hardware is almost sufficient, with the next gen really digging into the trenches around the current HD and Dolby Digital standards.

Most of the improvements will be situated around increasing mult-tasking so the OS can better handle networking, notifications, and other items in the background while not detracting resources from games. At the perspective of a game developer, you have more polygon room, but the end result is still on a 1080p screen, so it's a bit of a wash. Yes, some people could tell the difference between 720p and 1080p on their monster, multi-thousand dollar screens. So you've now solved that problem and anyone putting out a game running at 720p will probably be laughed at.

However, the real improvement is coming out of having more compute time to make decisions and do more back-end loading to remove load screens.

A lot of these improvements are already there on off-the-shelf computing hardware. So if you take an x86 kernel and start optimizing it for a gaming workload and trimming the user space back, you start to see a convergence. This really makes a Linux based SteamBox seem doable.

Furthermore, Steam has a rabid consumer base. One only has to look at the Steam Summer Sale. It's a fracking meme of it's own.

That sort of selling power and a built-for-SteamOS box may make a massive run on the console market that we haven't seen since the original PS stepped up to take on Nintendo.

Personally, I doubt it though. XBox has Live. Sony has PSN. People on Live can't play with people on PSN can't play with people on SteamOS. XBox won't let you run multiplayer over anything but Live, so Live players will always be siloed. Trying to run console players and PC gamers introduces unusual limits that chafe PC gamers. Also, there's the developers problem.

OTOH, I'm sure SteamOS players could play well with other PC Gamers. So, there's certainly that going for them. The SteamOS Online service may just be the developer's PC multiplayer infrastructure, so there's minimal additional work and the living room players won't be isolated to their own console.

It's a big bet, and and the chances of success and failure aren't favored one way or another. Steam is shooting high for this one, and I really hope they succeed.

Finally, if SteamOS can do something like Ubuntu and reside on the same partition as Windows, you may see some uptake on regular windows machines. Getting the OS installed in as many places as possible may give you the leverage you need to eventually sell a steam box to that customer. It's like if Microsoft let you install an XBox on your desktop. I'd like to see where that goes too.

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: Next card, Microsoft?
by Novan_Leon on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 20:01 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Next card, Microsoft?"
Novan_Leon Member since:
2005-12-07

I don't think console gaming is in as much of a "crisis" as you seem to think. This year is expected to have two of the biggest console launches on record, based solely on the pre-order numbers, both in a less-than-ideal economy.

Also, mobile gaming is hardly a threat to Nintendo, at least for now. The 3DS is one of the best selling pieces of hardware Nintendo has released, with over 30 million units sold worldwide already.

That said, I agree that SteamOS has enormous potential. Only time will tell though.

Edited 2013-09-23 20:04 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Next card, Microsoft?
by Lennie on Tue 24th Sep 2013 08:55 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Next card, Microsoft?"
Lennie Member since:
2007-09-22

Steam was afraid the MacOSX and Windows desktop market will be closed like iOS. That is a large part of their business. Consoles are just stripped down/optimized PCs, Xbox and PS4 are both X86.

If you see a big trend around 'user created content', especially in games and that these closed systems don't easily allow for that.

So what do you do ? They are going to make an open alternative. I think they are going to produce a Linux distribution for OEM PC vendors to create consoles.

Here is their presentation at LinuxCon from a couple of days ago, you be the judge:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCGMiT0CQAI

Did I read that correctly from the slides Steam has 50 million users ? So slightly more than XBox Live ?

I'm currently watching this, an other talk by Gabe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8QEOBgLBQU

Edited 2013-09-24 09:05 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: Next card, Microsoft?
by Lennie on Tue 24th Sep 2013 10:19 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Next card, Microsoft?"
Lennie Member since:
2007-09-22

The video from the next presentation by Gabe was also interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhgOqyZHBIU

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Next card, Microsoft?
by Dasher42 on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 23:24 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Next card, Microsoft?"
Dasher42 Member since:
2007-04-05

My loyalty to open source platforms feels exceedingly vindicated when I check the news these days with all the liasons Microsoft and Google have had with the NSA, and it has felt vindicated ever since I migrated from the Commodore Amiga to a platform where the technical merits were driving community involvement without idiotic corporate management killing it.

That's the kind of environment I'll develop for, and even modify closed source games on because I like having a real development toolchain at hand instead of a bunch of random tools someone wrote in Visual Basic. I may have relied on Cygwin to get some of the same result back when I did the Sacrifice of Angels mod for Homeworld or the Foundation plugin SDK for Bridge Commander, but these days, my desktop is pure Linux.

I for one have bought recently Skyrim, Civilization 5, Planescape Torment, and X-Plane 10 expressly to play on a Linux-only Core i5 desktop. I've been dual-booting Linux since 1994, and I haven't kept Windows on any desktop since 2009. I vastly prefer the arrangement since I have an OS underneath that's open source, highly performant, and has a full development toolchain handy. Further, if the motherboard were to be toasted or I had another machine to migrate to, I could transfer the SDD and HDD out of it and straight into any other x86-64 + Nvidia rig and run without a hitch, without having to buy a license for the new CPU.

Back in 2004 I was buying hardware expressly to do my development projects on, and then ran Gentoo with USE flags compiled to keep performance-killing software sound mixing off of my system completely. The result was a sweet run of games like Neverwinter Nights.

I love this platform, and those games which offer Linux binaries I particularly appreciate. To each their own, but I try to run as much of an open source platform as possible while still having cool gaming experiences.

If Valve plays its cards right, folks like me are going to have more great options, and standards in gaming are going to be even more cross-platform so Windows, Mac, and Linux are all well supported. The fringe benefit? Once you've got a working Linux binary of a game, it's even easier to run it on other new platforms - FreeBSD for example. Less lock-in and more freedom is good for everyone.

Reply Score: 10

RE[4]: Next card, Microsoft?
by allanregistos on Tue 24th Sep 2013 08:57 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Next card, Microsoft?"
allanregistos Member since:
2011-02-10

"Yes, really. The focus of such a mammoth platform as Steam shifting away from Windows, no matter how long it takes, is a major threat to Microsoft's business.


Lets see what actually happens because I haven't seen any numbers from valve on the number of new game purchases that have come from Linux users.
"

Again, initially, their Linux focused is not base on how much current market share they will gain for their Linux Steam Client. Their strategy is for the future, wherein, people will buy a steambox from any manufacturer(since it is open), or download SteamOS and install it yourself, so that in addition to your Windows Steam client, you can now stream your windows Games to your T.V. via SteamOS. That SteamOS thing is needed so that you'll get the full Steam features.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Next card, Microsoft?
by stabbyjones on Tue 24th Sep 2013 02:18 UTC in reply to "RE: Next card, Microsoft?"
stabbyjones Member since:
2008-04-15

the entire back catalog doesn't need to use linux. that's what streaming is for.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Next card, Microsoft?
by Soulbender on Tue 24th Sep 2013 05:39 UTC in reply to "RE: Next card, Microsoft?"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Dude...why so negative...
:P

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Next card, Microsoft?
by bassbeast on Tue 24th Sep 2013 06:36 UTC in reply to "RE: Next card, Microsoft?"
bassbeast Member since:
2007-11-11

Why did he get modded down for speaking the truth? The cost of porting DirectX to OpenGL is FAR from trivial, so a good 95% of the games ever made will NOT be available, even with the win 8 disaster MSFT owns more than 90% of the X86 market so good luck on getting most big gaming houses to offer more than a token of their catalog, and then there is the rotting elephant nobody wants to talk about...DRM.

Like it or not there is no way in hell the big publishers are gonna support a living room box without DRM yet its practically impossible to use DRM in Linux because of the viral nature of the GPL which RMS himself has repeatedly said is by design.

So what you are gonna have is Valve games and some indies....which everyone can get on Windows WITHOUT having to install and learn a new OS. Believe me I WANT this to work, we system builders have been treated like dirt by MSFT but unless Valve is willing to pony up a good 100 million plus to make Wine into a perfectly seamless translation layer that requires no thought from John Q Public AND be willing to spend a good half a decade in court as no doubt MSFT would sue if it comes a mile of DirectX IP? Yeah...good luck Valve, you are gonna need it.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Next card, Microsoft?
by allanregistos on Tue 24th Sep 2013 09:00 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Next card, Microsoft?"
allanregistos Member since:
2011-02-10


Like it or not there is no way in hell the big publishers are gonna support a living room box without DRM yet its practically impossible to use DRM in Linux because of the viral nature of the GPL which RMS himself has repeatedly said is by design.


Common, games were not made to work as Linux Kernel Modules, it's in user space, so GPL is not an issue.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Next card, Microsoft?
by JAlexoid on Tue 24th Sep 2013 14:00 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Next card, Microsoft?"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

The cost of porting DirectX to OpenGL is FAR from trivial

The cost of porting D3D to PSGL/OpenGL is also far from trivial... and yet it's being done all the time.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Next card, Microsoft?
by JAlexoid on Tue 24th Sep 2013 13:46 UTC in reply to "RE: Next card, Microsoft?"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

Also I like running one OS on my work from home / gaming PC that works perfectly with my kit without any hacks and that OS is Windows.

And Gabe will personally come into your home and poke you with a stick so that you don't run Windows?

Geezzzz.... Just because it becomes available on other platforms does not reduce your level of experience. You reminded me of those people that went crazy over Instagram coming to Android.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Next card, Microsoft?
by ilovebeer on Wed 25th Sep 2013 17:45 UTC in reply to "Next card, Microsoft?"
ilovebeer Member since:
2011-08-08

My, how the tables are turning.

That's quite the pre-mature ejaculation. A custom linux distro with improved closed-source drivers AKA SteamOS has a LONG way to go before it can be considered any kind of competition for Windows gaming.

Just curious, every time somebody on the internet posts a message about how the linux desktop is about to put Windows out of business, you likely buy into it every time right?

Reply Score: 3

Comment by Drumhellar
by Drumhellar on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 17:45 UTC
Drumhellar
Member since:
2005-07-12

Well. It's got a three in it, so Half-Life 3 is pretty much confirmed.


Hah!

Edited 2013-09-23 17:45 UTC

Reply Score: 2

...
by Hiev on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 17:49 UTC
Hiev
Member since:
2005-09-27

I really hope is not Android based.

Reply Score: 0

RE: ...
by WereCatf on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 17:50 UTC in reply to "..."
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

It's Linux. Not Android.

Reply Score: 6

RE[2]: ...
by chithanh on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 18:36 UTC in reply to "RE: ..."
chithanh Member since:
2006-06-18

Android is a Linux distribution. It is not GNU/Linux though, and quite different from desktop distributions.

About SteamOS, Phoronix speculates that it will be based on Ubuntu Core.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: ...
by Hiev on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 18:48 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: ..."
Hiev Member since:
2005-09-27

Android is a Linux distribution.

So?

Distributions based in other distribution are quite common in the Linux world.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: ...
by Drumhellar on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 19:51 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: ..."
Drumhellar Member since:
2005-07-12

Android is Linux kernel + Dalvik + Android APIs. The least important component of that stack is the Linux kernel - it could easily be replaced by any other POSIX kernel and still be Android.

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: ...
by Hiev on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 20:03 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: ..."
Hiev Member since:
2005-09-27

O.K. mister smart ass, let me be more specific, just for you.

I hope is not based on the Android versión of Linux.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: ...
by Drumhellar on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 20:13 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: ..."
Drumhellar Member since:
2005-07-12

That's not more specific at all.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: ...
by Hiev on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 20:38 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: ..."
Hiev Member since:
2005-09-27

It is, you just can't get it.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: ...
by oiaohm on Tue 24th Sep 2013 00:18 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: ..."
oiaohm Member since:
2009-05-30

Android is Linux kernel + Dalvik + Android APIs. The least important component of that stack is the Linux kernel - it could easily be replaced by any other POSIX kernel and still be Android.

Not so. Android is dependant on items that are not Posix from the kernel level.Suspend blockers or the final form of wakelocks is require for power effectiveness.

Blackberry has tried todo exactly what you described Drumhellar with qnx Yes qnx is a Posix OS. Yes there are Android/Linux particular things at the kernel level under android that you require so stuff works.

Least important component is not exactly true. Kernel working right is key to how long battery lasts. User not seeing it does not remove its importance.

Yes Google has been willing to work with upstream to get the best power management solution they can.

Could the Linux kernel be replaced in Android yes. Will that replacement be easy todo the answer is no its not. If it was easy we would have qnx based android from blackberry that works well. Some android applications talk to the /dev directory and other interface directories straight to the Linux kernel.

Remove Linux kernel you have to emulate it to have all Android applications work. Blackberry android support some applications just don't run and will never run due to not good enough Linux kernel interface emulation.

Reply Score: 4

Real and Significant
by OpenGLCoder on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 17:51 UTC
OpenGLCoder
Member since:
2006-10-17

SteamOS will be able to do what other Linux distros were unable to - eliminate the overhead of having to support datacenter, IT, and embedded requirements while optimizing scheduling/input/graphics/audio (no more pulse-audio?) for games. This is real and significant. That being said, making the business case to 14-year-olds who have the time to play games may be a challenge...

Edited 2013-09-23 17:54 UTC

Reply Score: 4

Good Bye Windows
by sheokand on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 17:54 UTC
sheokand
Member since:
2013-04-23

i use linux for everything, except gaming.
now with steam os there will be more games for linux(steam OS\box) in general.
So Good Bye Windows(M$).

Reply Score: 6

Now let's find out what the stack is
by Dasher42 on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 17:56 UTC
Dasher42
Member since:
2007-04-05

Are they going to use Wayland, Mir, Xorg, or some other graphics solution? Will an open source box still be a reasonable platform for the Steam client?

That's the really interesting question. I'd like to see something closer to a fully free and capable environment than Android.

Reply Score: 3

WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

Will an open source box still be a reasonable platform for the Steam client?

That's the really interesting question. I'd like to see something closer to a fully free and capable environment than Android.


Well, the announcement talks specifically about how end-users can modify both the OS and the H/W to their liking, so I would suppose it's at least more free and capable than Android. The other specifics we'll likely learn soon.

Reply Score: 3

moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

It might happen that whatever games target SteamOS are not able to run in other distributions, by relying on SteamOS specific pathnames, libraries, whatever.

Lets see how it really looks like.

Reply Score: 3

ddc_ Member since:
2006-12-05

Unless StreamOS is limited to some weird hardware platform the worst case scenario is StreamOS chroot (just like i386 support in amd64 distributions). But I really doubt it would take that much of trouble.

Reply Score: 2

moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

It is more than just hardware.

Linux is just a kernel, so the main question is what SteamOS puts on top of it and how different it is from other distributions.

Reply Score: 3

ddc_ Member since:
2006-12-05

All the Linux-based systems are not that incompatible. You can have a system that combines the software of distinct flavors like, say, Android and GNU in Ubuntu Mobile. Unless Valve does something specifically to hinder compatibility, desktop distributions could assimilate it.

Reply Score: 2

moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

Have you ever had fun trying to run binaries targeted to one distribution into another one?

There are lots of things that can go wrong:

- .so versions
- contents of /proc
- file locations
- scripting language versions
- ...

Reply Score: 3

ddc_ Member since:
2006-12-05

Yes, I have. I almost always used the not so popular distributions, and so I know these problems. Yet, they are trivial to fix - build a bunch of libraries, or - in a worst case - setup a chroot. BTW you may even run most i386 Linux binaries on i386 BSDs. Really, this is a minor annoyance.

Reply Score: 2

andrewclunn
Member since:
2012-11-05

Heavy modification of the core of the OS? I'm a bit worried. I love that steam is on Linux, and I've now eliminated all traces of Windows from my desktop. I'd be very worried though if these triple AAA titles built for Steam OS REQUIRED it to run reliably and had shoddy support under other Linux distros.

Reply Score: 4

Lennie Member since:
2007-09-22

You have to remember many of the improvements Steam does or helps with end up in the upstream Linux/open source projects.

So with a bit of luck the differences with regural Linux should be minimal.

Reply Score: 4

v What "rock-solid architecture of Linux"?
by Kebabbert on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 18:06 UTC
leech Member since:
2006-01-10

s/Linux/Ubuntu/

Reply Score: 1

aligatro Member since:
2010-01-28

I dont get it. What are they talking about? Has Linux ever been rock solid? Upgrade your kernel, and things breaks apart. Hardly rock solid.


Never really had this problem on any of my linux machines. However, I don't compile my own kernels from the kernel.org. That might be why you have/had problems.

Reply Score: 5

lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

On fedora for example there is akmod nvidia drivers and kmod nvidia drivers and running one of those used to give you problems with kernel updates if I remember correctly.

There is post from ask.fedoraproject.org

https://ask.fedoraproject.org/question/9106/what-is-the-
difference-between-an-akmod-and-kmod/

This was not an uncommon situation. Catalyst drivers were a nightmare when I had to use them.

I am sure valve have a strategy for handling updates, but it has to be pretty solid.

Edited 2013-09-23 18:34 UTC

Reply Score: 3

aligatro Member since:
2010-01-28

On fedora for example there is akmod nvidia drivers and kmod nvidia drivers and running one of those used to give you problems with kernel updates if I remember correctly.

There is post from ask.fedoraproject.org

https://ask.fedoraproject.org/question/9106/what-is-the-
difference-between-an-akmod-and-kmod/

This was not an uncommon situation. Catalyst drivers were a nightmare when I had to use them.

I am sure valve have a strategy for handling updates, but it has to be pretty solid.



Proprietary drivers, yea those can break on kernel upgrades. Most of my Linux experience comes from headless server boxes. And its being silky smooth ride all those years.(aside from some problems with software packages which is not related to kernel itself)

However, I did use Ubuntu back when it was 8. something and the most problems I had was having to recompile headers for Nvidia driver(or something like that) as I was using the official Nvidia installer.

Reply Score: 2

lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

We all know they can but while the newer intel GPUs are loads better than the old ones, there is no high end GPU that has open source drivers (that perform similarly to Windows) for Linux.

I have perfect Linux updates on my Linux workstation that has everything that is intel, but outside of that I get a mixed experience.

It has got a lot better since Redhat 8, Suse 8.x days ... but it can still be problematic.

Reply Score: 3

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Maybe you shouldn't attribute your own failures to the OS.

Reply Score: 6

Desktop Linux compatibility?
by liamdawe on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 18:23 UTC
liamdawe
Member since:
2006-07-04

As the owner of www.GamingOnLinux.com this pleases me to see them using Linux on the SteamOS ;) , I just hope it doesn't become incompatible with desktop Linux distributions.

Reply Score: 6

RE: Desktop Linux compatibility?
by lucas_maximus on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 18:39 UTC in reply to "Desktop Linux compatibility?"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

I actually read your GoG article the other week, about them not having the time to support Linux. Was a decently written article.

Reply Score: 3

Comment by Nelsoj
by Nelson on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 19:24 UTC
Nelson
Member since:
2005-11-29

Looks like the right idea, will come down to execution and how compelling the SteamBox is.

The big take away from this is that worst case scenario Linux has still taken major steps forward in gaming.

Good luck to Valve, this is going to be very expensive for them, and bloody. Ask Microsoft how long the Xbox took.

Reply Score: 7

It seems like an obvious name but SteamOS?
by Priest on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 19:29 UTC
Priest
Member since:
2006-05-12

I know Valve is a company that makes the steam platform but SteamOS sounds too much like a steaming pile of.. code.

I am a huge Valve fanboy though and I wish them luck. Hopefully they see more success than the under powered Ouya did.

Reply Score: 1

Whoa
by saidge@yahoo.com on Mon 23rd Sep 2013 21:20 UTC
saidge@yahoo.com
Member since:
2007-11-06

Well I guess I called that one. Still surprised as anyone though.

Reply Score: 1

Well I never...
by BluenoseJake on Tue 24th Sep 2013 00:56 UTC
BluenoseJake
Member since:
2005-08-11

A Linux distro designed to unseat MS Windows. What will they think of next?

Maybe they'll succeed, maybe they won't, but it's not like it's a new concept or anything. If most devs port their games using Cider, it's not even a win, they still need the Windows API, it's more like a draw.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Well I never...
by SeeM on Tue 24th Sep 2013 05:55 UTC in reply to "Well I never..."
SeeM Member since:
2011-09-10

If most devs port their games using Cider, it's not even a win, they still need the Windows API, it's more like a draw.


They don't will have to port anything. Box can stream games from Windows host. But they will, because Valve is doing excellent job with SDL. It was everythere and I hope that version 2.0 will be a big comeback.

With improvements on input and sound latency on the Box part (not the strongest point of Linux gaming now) and customized kernel without hundreds of unused drivers we'll have good gaming distro. And it's bad for other distros.

I'm a Fedora fan and I'm understand that Linux games are tested pretty much only for Ubuntu and sometimes for Suse (at least I have RPMs). Now even Ubuntu users will be left with "self-support", because the only reason for porting games for Linux will be the Box. It's based on Ubuntu LTS, but I'm pretty sure that, in time, there will be some incompatibility.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Well I never...
by allanregistos on Tue 24th Sep 2013 09:04 UTC in reply to "RE: Well I never..."
allanregistos Member since:
2011-02-10

"If most devs port their games using Cider, it's not even a win, they still need the Windows API, it's more like a draw.


They don't will have to port anything. Box can stream games from Windows host. But they will, because Valve is doing excellent job with SDL. It was everythere and I hope that version 2.0 will be a big comeback.

With improvements on input and sound latency on the Box part (not the strongest point of Linux gaming now) and customized kernel without hundreds of unused drivers we'll have good gaming distro. And it's bad for other distros.

I'm a Fedora fan and I'm understand that Linux games are tested pretty much only for Ubuntu and sometimes for Suse (at least I have RPMs). Now even Ubuntu users will be left with "self-support", because the only reason for porting games for Linux will be the Box. It's based on Ubuntu LTS, but I'm pretty sure that, in time, there will be some incompatibility.
"

As I understand what's going on now. The development tools will be shared across distributions. As long as the license of their tools allowed for sharing, this would not be a problem.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by v_bobok
by v_bobok on Tue 24th Sep 2013 01:37 UTC
v_bobok
Member since:
2008-08-01

BRAVO GABEN, BRAV-O.

Reply Score: 4

Could be promising
by Xaero_Vincent on Tue 24th Sep 2013 02:05 UTC
Xaero_Vincent
Member since:
2006-08-18

I'm a big steam user on Windows myself and used to use Arch as my primary OS. SteamOS won't really challenge Windows, except on the gaming front, which is probably declining somewhat in favor of mobile gaming; If SteamOS is based on the foundation of an existing distribution (probably Ubuntu) then it has real potential to help Linux become a top-tier platform for computer game development and as a result, we may see many more hot game titles supporting Linux natively.

Hopefully SteamOS will also support or bundle Wine software, which supports the Windows version of Steam and hundreds of Windows games that run from within it.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Could be promising
by Ultimatebadass on Tue 24th Sep 2013 08:17 UTC in reply to "Could be promising"
Ultimatebadass Member since:
2006-01-08

Hopefully SteamOS will also support or bundle Wine software


I respectfully disagree. IF linux gaming is going to be a thing there should be as little half-assed solutions as possible.

Reply Score: 4

Comment by Luminair
by Luminair on Tue 24th Sep 2013 10:59 UTC
Luminair
Member since:
2007-03-30

"An Education"

There are two equally important hardcore game platforms right now: Windows x86 (Xbox One) and Linux x86 (Playstation 4).

Whether SteamOS exists or not, and whether or not you get Linux gaming in the home, Linux has become a more prominent game platform than ever before. Game developers are making games for PS4's Linux RIGHT NOW. It compiles and runs.

The new consoles being identical to PC hardware and software conveniently speeds their demise. Openness is unstoppable. This decade or the next, SteamOS or something like it is coming to evaporate billions in licensing-stranglehold revenue.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Comment by Luminair
by karunko on Tue 24th Sep 2013 13:05 UTC in reply to "Comment by Luminair"
karunko Member since:
2008-10-28

There are two equally important hardcore game platforms right now: Windows x86 (Xbox One) and Linux x86 (Playstation 4).

Not really. PlayStation 4's operating system is called "Orbis OS" and is (supposedly) based on FreeBSD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_4#Software_and_services) which, considering the well known licensing issues, makes sense for a company that rather not share but still play by the rules.

As for SteamOS itself, at the moment there aren't enough details to express an informed opinion, therefore I'll just keep an eye on it -- but no, no matter how much I would like it to be true, I won't hold my breath waiting for "all the AAA titles coming natively to SteamOS in 2014."


RT.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by Luminair
by Luminair on Tue 24th Sep 2013 14:18 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by Luminair"
Luminair Member since:
2007-03-30

Ill have to widen my statement to posix opengl ;)

Reply Score: 1

Comment by ilovebeer
by ilovebeer on Wed 25th Sep 2013 17:53 UTC
ilovebeer
Member since:
2011-08-08

A couple of things stood out to me....

"SteamOS combines the rock-solid architecture of Linux with a gaming experience built for the big screen."

Rock-solid? Really? That's an amazing claim.. One that countless linux devs and Linus himself don't agree with.

"Valve goes beyond just building a Linux distribution and grafting Steam on top of it."

No, that's pretty much all it is after you remove the PR fluff.

I plan on giving SteamOS a spin. BUT, it has a LOT to prove before I'm willing to take it serious and that view isn't exclusive to me. Valve has yet to say anything that hasn't already been said before and there's nothing tangible that makes me believe SteamOS or the Steam Box can live up to their PR hype.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Comment by ilovebeer
by Kebabbert on Wed 25th Sep 2013 21:31 UTC in reply to "Comment by ilovebeer"
Kebabbert Member since:
2007-07-27

"SteamOS combines the rock-solid architecture of Linux with a gaming experience built for the big screen."

Rock-solid? Really? That's an amazing claim.. One that countless linux devs and Linus himself don't agree with.

Be careful, people will mark you as a Troll for quoting Linus and other Linux kernel developers.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Comment by ilovebeer
by ilovebeer on Wed 25th Sep 2013 21:45 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by ilovebeer"
ilovebeer Member since:
2011-08-08

""SteamOS combines the rock-solid architecture of Linux with a gaming experience built for the big screen."

Rock-solid? Really? That's an amazing claim.. One that countless linux devs and Linus himself don't agree with.

Be careful, people will mark you as a Troll for quoting Linus and other Linux kernel developers.
"

They would be idiots for doing so since the linux dev mailing lists are public and it's well-known Linus isn't scared to speak his mind. These people and a lot of what they say are very accessible between the mailing lists and freenode irc channels (which are typically logged). There's nothing amazing or magical about being in contact with them.

Reply Score: 2