Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 3rd Dec 2013 19:04 UTC
Games

Absolutely fantastic article by Tracey Lien.

If the selection at the average retailer is anything to go by, girls don't play video games. If cultural stereotypes are anything to go by, video games are for males. They're the makers, the buyers and the players.

There is often truth to stereotypes. But whatever truth there may be, the stereotype does not show the long and complicated path taken to formulate it, spread it and have it come back to shape societal views.

The attitude towards women in video games is even worse when you take online multiplayer into consideration. One of my team mates in League of Legends is a woman, and I've seen some absolutely terrible things being thrown her way in chat - during and even after the game is over. I've also pretended to be female in League of Legends just to see what would happen, and it was just as bad. However, I could just shrug it off - hearing the things guys say while you're pretending to be a woman as an experiment is a hell of a lot different than hearing these things when you're actually a woman.

I even caught myself thinking 'my female team mate should just pretend to be a guy' - but you know what? That's expletive ridiculous. As Lien details in her article, changing the way video games are being marketed would be a very good first step that could most certainly snowball into the future.

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Comment by Luminair
by Luminair on Tue 3rd Dec 2013 20:55 UTC
Luminair
Member since:
2007-03-30

Problems like these happen when people take kids seriously. Nobody does in real life, but when you get on the internet, things get crazy because most of these people are kids, and always will be.

There's no age flag on the internet, but there should be. So many conversations would be avoided if you just knew you were talking to a 14 year old.

Am I wrong? Does anyone think women care about being cat-called by teenagers? Does anyone care when a child calls them a bad name?

Reply Score: 3

RE: Comment by Luminair
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Tue 3rd Dec 2013 21:22 UTC in reply to "Comment by Luminair"
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

You're delusional if you think that most of them are physically juvenile.

What should happen is players should be able to personally ban players who behave badly. When playing a multiplayer game the network just filters out games played by banned players ( for the current user). It might take some time, but you'd end up with self curated groups of decent people to play with.

Reply Score: 9

RE[2]: Comment by Luminair
by Wootery on Wed 4th Dec 2013 14:28 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by Luminair"
Wootery Member since:
2013-11-22

'Personal blacklisting' won't work. There are simply too many people out there for any one person to blacklist all of them.

Any system where players get to vote on who is misbehaving would be open to abuse.

I don't see an easy solution. If it's pay-for-your-account, like Xbox Live, I guess you might have a chance; the company running it can hire people to investigate cases. It would be against their business interests to use the banhammer, though...

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Comment by Luminair
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Wed 4th Dec 2013 16:21 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by Luminair"
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

Yeah, its possible that a personal ban list might not work the greatest. Maybe if it were combined with a self imposed hostility level? Like category 1- 10. Level 10 anything goes, level 1 no foul language. You don't get banned you just get kicked up a level if you are too foul for the current level. You can reapply for a lower level after a month and can only move down one level at a time.

I'm not sure that would work either, but something automated that works without a complete ban should be feasible. More A/B testing needed.

Reply Score: 2

Can't take the heat
by Ultimatebadass on Tue 3rd Dec 2013 21:12 UTC
Ultimatebadass
Member since:
2006-01-08

get out of the kitchen. Or don't play multiplayer. I don't. Would you rather hear how every teenager in CoD fucked your mother? Don't make this a "gender" problem, because it's not. It's a people problem, and claiming that women are magically more affected by it is... well... sexist.

Reply Score: 7

RE: Can't take the heat
by Novan_Leon on Tue 3rd Dec 2013 22:26 UTC in reply to "Can't take the heat"
Novan_Leon Member since:
2005-12-07

You're correct, this isn't a gender issue, this is a people issue. Scummy people will use anything they know about you against you in the most personal and offensive manner possible. This is a different matter from the mainstream marketing games to males, but as far as multiplayer is concerned, just don't participate in the conversation (i.e. mute everyone) and you'll be fine.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Can't take the heat
by ronaldst on Tue 3rd Dec 2013 23:45 UTC in reply to "Can't take the heat"
ronaldst Member since:
2005-06-29

In less than 10 years, we'll see an updated video on this subject. About every 5 years, someone rants about how little girls are oppressed into a specific model. Big tears are shed and everybody forget it within a week.

Only here we're treated to a bonus videos like this where people teach their 4yo corporation conspiracies (a form of child abuse). While everybody ignores the elephant in the room. Teaching young people self-esteem (stop thinking what people may think about one's self) early on.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Can't take the heat
by Wootery on Wed 4th Dec 2013 14:33 UTC in reply to "Can't take the heat"
Wootery Member since:
2013-11-22

No. You've missed the point entirely.

The point here is not about generally abusive gamers - it's about abusive male gamers singling out gamers who let it be known they are female.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Can't take the heat
by Ultimatebadass on Wed 4th Dec 2013 14:44 UTC in reply to "RE: Can't take the heat"
Ultimatebadass Member since:
2006-01-08

And? That is just focusing on a part of the problem and ignoring the rest. Online trolls are online trolls.

"Earth to be destroyed in 2 weeks. Women affected worst."

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Can't take the heat
by Wootery on Wed 4th Dec 2013 16:02 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Can't take the heat"
Wootery Member since:
2013-11-22

That is just focusing on a part of the problem and ignoring the rest.


We're discussing sexism in a particular context, so of course, yes, it's only a subset of that particular context.

It's not the whole picture of the abusive-morons-in-multiplayer issue, sure, but one could argue the exact same way from the other side, and I suspect with much greater success: feminism addresses a much more important issue than 'just' morons being offensive online.

Your view seems to be that sexism isn't something worth taking seriously. I submit that it is.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Can't take the heat
by Ultimatebadass on Wed 4th Dec 2013 17:39 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Can't take the heat"
Ultimatebadass Member since:
2006-01-08

feminism addresses a much more important issue than 'just' morons being offensive online


Is it "morons being offensive online to women"? Fuck it, you know what? I'd take a bullshit spewing CoD kid in my video games over man hating, censor happy PC police that modern western feminism is.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Can't take the heat
by qbast on Wed 4th Dec 2013 18:37 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Can't take the heat"
qbast Member since:
2010-02-08

Your reasoning seems quite circular: it is sexism, because we are focusing on gender-related insults (out of whole mass of everything-related insults) and we are focusing on gender-related insults because of sexism. I see it as just one minor subcategory of online trolling, not really worth of any more consideration than any other kind of trolling.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Can't take the heat
by bassbeast on Wed 4th Dec 2013 16:48 UTC in reply to "Can't take the heat"
bassbeast Member since:
2007-11-11

THANK YOU, this is something I have been saying for years, that if you don't watch it you end up with games that are "politically correct" and if you made something that was truly 100% inoffensive to everyone? it would be a "watching paint dry" simulator.

Here is a perfect example, watch how quickly this simple exchange will polarize this conversation. recently there was an article on why there were no female avatars in a lot of shooters, with many women saying it wasn't fair, etc so i asked them a simple question....in many games there are achievements for "over the top" kills, you see this in all kinds of games but the most blatant would be Bulletstorm. Now lets say they made "Bulletstorm II" with female characters included as both players and baddies...would you have a problem with an achievement like "boob job" for blowing a woman's breasts off?

Boy you should have heard the screams, with most female players even calling for such a game to be outright banned and THAT is the problem I have with "sensitivity" in games. You either get a double standard, where things that are perfectly acceptable to do to a male character are verbotten to do to the female (IIRC Bulletstorm had several achievements for blowing off the man bits) or you have to remove everything that would be considered offensive if done to a girl...which is of course treating females as shrinking violets that have to have things sanitized to protect their fragile female brains!

Look you can't walk into a biker bar and tell them they can't curse and have to have their pinkies extended when they sip their beer and likewise you should have to "girl proof" a game so that no females ever get offended. If you want to make a G and PG rated section? Fine and dandy, as long as people CHOOSE to play there I see no problem with that but if I'm playing an intense shooter with a bunch of other adults i don't want some politically correct mod telling us what we can and can't say, if someone playing with us doesn't like it they are free to play somewhere else.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Can't take the heat
by Ultimatebadass on Wed 4th Dec 2013 18:14 UTC in reply to "RE: Can't take the heat"
Ultimatebadass Member since:
2006-01-08

Yeah gotta love the double standards there. The most frightening thing is that they are unable to see their own hypocrisy. That Bulletstorm example was spot on. Kill 10000 faceless men in shooters? Achievement unlocked! Harm one woman NPC in any way? Outrage on the streets and professional victims come out of the woodwork (latest example being the famous almost-but-not-really "rape" of Lara Croft in latest Tomb Raider and the associated shitstorm).

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Can't take the heat
by bassbeast on Wed 4th Dec 2013 21:13 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Can't take the heat"
bassbeast Member since:
2007-11-11

Exactly, male rape is the punchline of jokes while even the hint that Lara Croft MIGHT be in danger of being raped? its an outrage!

Personally I'm all for REAL equality, I'd have no problem with a "boob job" anymore than I'd have for a "nutcracker" achievement but it just blows my mind how so many of these are SUPPOSEDLY for female "equality" yet at the same time the women have to be treated like shrinking violets? Give me a break!

Like I said if a game wants to have a PG section? Not a problem but the second YOU start telling ME and MY friends how we should play OUR game? please take your politically correct crap and take a nice long walk over a VERY short pier,thx.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Can't take the heat
by twitterfire on Thu 5th Dec 2013 07:28 UTC in reply to "RE: Can't take the heat"
twitterfire Member since:
2008-09-11

So the morrons want political correctness and double standards both in real life and in games.

The moment most games will become political correct, I will quit playing all games besides Solitaire and Minesweeper.

I am a gamedev and I work on other kind of games right now, but supposing I'd work on a shooter or RPG, what should I do? Let's suppose there are black, jew, female and homesexual NPCs in the game. Should I allow them to be killed and risk the game to be banned or should I only allow the killing of straight white males?

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Can't take the heat
by kwan_e on Thu 5th Dec 2013 10:19 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Can't take the heat"
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

It's like you assholes don't even understand the concept of straw man.

Keep making strawman arguments, asshole.

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: Can't take the heat
by bassbeast on Thu 5th Dec 2013 16:06 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Can't take the heat"
bassbeast Member since:
2007-11-11

Do you HAVE a point? Or are you just babbling for the sake of it? And what straw man would that be?

I named a game, one of several BTW, as Borderlands 2, FEAR 3, quite a few games have achievements (in the case of Borderlands these achievements give you "badass points" that give you in game advantages like faster regen on shields so you are encouraged to go after them) for over the top kills, such as "nutcracker" in Bulletstorm and then asked a VERY simple question...would you have a problem with a "boob job" achievement for blowing a woman's breasts off which frankly IS NO DIFFERENT than the "nutcracker" achievement that Bulletstorm ALREADY HAS.

But what did I get? I got told what a monster I was, how such a game should be banned and when the politically correct found out there was already games that give achievements for blowing off the man bits that they wanted those games banned as well!

And THAT, that right there, is the complete hypocrisy and ultimate lie of political correctness, you are free to do anything as long as it conforms to my values and beliefs and the SECOND that it doesn't? You are a monster and your game should be banned for daring to not conform to political correctness.

And according to political correctness women are NOT EQUAL, they are shrinking violets that should be treated with kid gloves. As I said there were several that had no problem with games that slaughter tens of thousands of white men, but don't you DARE shoot a woman or a protected class, because that makes you a racist sexist monster!

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Can't take the heat
by kwan_e on Sat 7th Dec 2013 06:07 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Can't take the heat"
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

Do you HAVE a point? Or are you just babbling for the sake of it? And what straw man would that be?


The fact that you mention "political correctness" is a strawman. All those points you argue? No one makes them. They're mostly fabricated by the likes of you so that you can pretend to be the injured party.

I put them on the same level as the supposed "War on Christmas" and other such bullshit. This whole "political correctness gone mad" bollocks always turns out to be a fabrication and deliberate misunderstandings. And I'm also tired of cunts like you who basically downgrade EVERY spotlight on a social issue as "political correctness".

Fuck you, and fuck the George Carlin horse you came in on. You lot are nothing but George Carlin wannabes who are never really able to go beyond what he's already said on the subject, but think you are enlightened sages for repeating other people's words.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Can't take the heat
by iarann on Thu 5th Dec 2013 06:18 UTC in reply to "Can't take the heat"
iarann Member since:
2006-05-14

Don't make this a "gender" problem, because it's not. It's a people problem


Are the idots making these comments bad people in general? Yes, of course, but the problem here isn't that they make rude comments and hurt some girls feelings, it's that they turn their hate up to 11 when it's a female gamer. Even outside of forums and in online games, I'm shocked at some of the condecension I've seen directed at women who express an interest in tech or gaming, where it's assumed they are only doing it for the attention and they can't possibly be interested in this stuff for any other reason. Sexism is real, there really are guys out there that are terrible to women just based on their gender.

Reply Score: 6

Inexcusable
by StephenBeDoper on Tue 3rd Dec 2013 21:30 UTC
StephenBeDoper
Member since:
2005-07-06

I find the prevalent sexism amongst gamers to be especially ridiculous given that the most active gamer I know is probably my sister (TF2, the GTA series, etc). Her solution to avoiding that kind of BS is to either stick to text instead of voice chat, or to only use private servers with a group of people she knows.

I've never understood how people can justify that sort of ignorant behaviour to themselves - same for the jackasses around here who seem to have a psychological compulsion to shout offensive idiocy out their car windows every time they pass a female pedestrian. Perhaps it's a side-effect of having been raised in a rural area - when you're a kid and most of the women you know have (and have demonstrated) the ability to kill animals larger than you, then there's not much question of respect.

Reply Score: 7

Xenmen
Member since:
2013-12-03

The retail upper management folks and publishers are the ones whose discrimination is disgusting.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-12-12-naughty-dog-theres...

^Remember this?


It's not a problem with 'the industry' in the sense that videogame designers have a problem being misogynist pigs. I'll warrant that publishers might have that problem, but the totality of devs sure as hell don't.
I'd argue the general public doesn't either. There are a lot of nice people who stick to small online communities, and simply don't play online games where they think they'll be bombarded with idiots. Same with certain forums.


Sometimes it's not just the publishers pushing for BIG SALES, the devs honestly are just trying to milk money from what they see as the biggest market.
http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2012/12/bioshock-infinite-box-art/

^Ever since I saw the first trailer for Bioshock Infinite, this is basically how I saw it, a 'frat boy' game. Whatever bullshit social commentary is in there doesn't matter, it won't penetrate those neanderthal skulls and I won't be able to enjoy the game past the bullshit frat boy pandering.


You know how you solve this all? Sidestep the retailers, sidestep the publishers, cut out these middlemen and get interactive with the devs. Look at all the old boys coming out on Kickstarter and spending hours every day taking feedback from the public. They don't give a rat's ass what publishers think, because the publishers have been blocking all their good ideas and they're tired of it. Kickstarter's not a long term solution, but that's a whole other issue.

@Bill Shooter of Bul:
^This is a tenable solution. It would create an inordinate amount of network traffic everytime anyone update his or her server list though.

@Luminair
@Ultimatebadass
[Don't make this a "gender" problem, because it's not. It's a people problem, and claiming that women are magically more affected by it is... well... sexist.]
^Sums it.

Relatedly: http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-11/18/peter-sunde-hemlis-p...

Reply Score: 2

Novan_Leon Member since:
2005-12-07

Basically, it's the marketing types who see the world as consisting entirely of various (potentially marketable) demographic groups who end up pushing these types of stereotypes.

Edited 2013-12-03 22:44 UTC

Reply Score: 2

NicePics13
Member since:
2009-06-08

My sister and I shared an NES console when growing up, we only had one game for it (Mario 3) and borrowed the rest from the neighbourhood kids. But we were _kids_ - the only adult I knew that liked to play Nintendo was a senior gay lady that visited our family's B&B one summer and she had her own freaking NES console with her! + 10 classic games she obviously shared with us ;)
I don't know.. back in the day my parents thought she was weird for liking silly shit like videogames but these days..
Posers. Posers everywhere.

Reply Score: 4

Socially awkward...
by leech on Tue 3rd Dec 2013 22:59 UTC
leech
Member since:
2006-01-10

Well, there is probably a reason (especially the MMORPG players) are 'sexist'. You remember the boys who would pick on girls, but it was because they liked them, but didn't really know how to show / tell their feelings?

Really the same thing here. Not to mention the people who generally are the ones that are always playing games are the ones who are doing so because they have no girlfriend/wife to spend time with.

Kind of the chicken/egg thing, where they probably could get a woman if they'd stop playing games and go outside occasionally, but at the same time they push them all away while playing the games and so they continue them.

Of course I can't say much, I'm socially awkward and and spend too much time on the Internet myself ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE: Socially awkward...
by Thom_Holwerda on Tue 3rd Dec 2013 23:02 UTC in reply to "Socially awkward..."
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Well, there is probably a reason (especially the MMORPG players) are 'sexist'. You remember the boys who would pick on girls, but it was because they liked them, but didn't really know how to show / tell their feelings?

Really the same thing here. Not to mention the people who generally are the ones that are always playing games are the ones who are doing so because they have no girlfriend/wife to spend time with.


I'm sorry, but that's an incredibly outdated view. Playing games has become so mainstream that insisting it's all just socially inept nerds is... Quite, quite simplistic.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Socially awkward...
by WorknMan on Tue 3rd Dec 2013 23:13 UTC in reply to "RE: Socially awkward..."
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

I'm sorry, but that's an incredibly outdated view. Playing games has become so mainstream that insisting it's all just socially inept nerds is... Quite, quite simplistic.


Either way, if you're a hot chick, you're going to have lewd comments thrown your way. That's just the way the world works, and doesn't have much in particular to do with video games. For example, go on IRC as a female and see how many PMs you get from dudes.

As for females in video games, I don't know why we specifically need more women playing games, except for maybe guys being annoyed when their girlfriends complain that they're always playing video games. I mean, you don't hear a bunch of people complaining that there aren't enough males into arts & crafts, do you? Should I be offended or left out that Cosmopolitan caters specifically to women? If females want to play video games, then let them play. If not, f**k 'em. And I don't mean that figuratively either ;)

Seriously though, I've had some girlfriends who played video games and some who didn't. It really doesn't matter to me one way or the other. Just like women in tech, I don't think we should discourage them from joining, nor should we have a real push to get more of them involved. Let those who are really into it come of their own accord, and obviously welcome them if they want to join the fun.

Edited 2013-12-03 23:14 UTC

Reply Score: 6

RE[3]: Socially awkward...
by Gullible Jones on Tue 3rd Dec 2013 23:22 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Socially awkward..."
Gullible Jones Member since:
2006-05-23

Either way, if you're a hot chick, you're going to have lewd comments thrown your way. That's just the way the world works, and doesn't have much in particular to do with video games. For example, go on IRC as a female and see how many PMs you get from dudes.

You might also say something like, "If you're a black man, you're going to have racist insults thrown your way. That's just the way the world works." See the problem there?

Reply Score: 7

RE[4]: Socially awkward...
by WorknMan on Wed 4th Dec 2013 00:13 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Socially awkward..."
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

You might also say something like, "If you're a black man, you're going to have racist insults thrown your way. That's just the way the world works." See the problem there?


Mind you, I'm not saying it's okay, just that it's not something that happens only in the realm of video games, so we shouldn't treat it like guys are jerks specifically towards female gamers. A lot of guys are jerks to females in general ;)

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Socially awkward...
by WereCatf on Wed 4th Dec 2013 01:14 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Socially awkward..."
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

Mind you, I'm not saying it's okay, just that it's not something that happens only in the realm of video games, so we shouldn't treat it like guys are jerks specifically towards female gamers. A lot of guys are jerks to females in general ;)


Being a female myself I kind of have first-hand experience on this topic and, well, you actually *do* get a lot of guys who are jerks to you specifically because of your interest in games and/or tech. I mean, they're all pleasant and all at first, but once they find out you like such things the shit hits the fan and they lose all their marbles. And it happens a lot.

Reply Score: 6

RE[6]: Socially awkward...
by WorknMan on Wed 4th Dec 2013 01:39 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Socially awkward..."
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

Really? I figure guys would be all over girls who are techies/gamers. Unless they're intimidated if you're better than them at either one ;)

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: Socially awkward...
by WereCatf on Wed 4th Dec 2013 01:43 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Socially awkward..."
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

Really? I figure guys would be all over girls who are techies/gamers.


That's actually rather rare.

Unless they're intimidated if you're better than them at either one ;)


Happens quite often.

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: Socially awkward...
by panzi on Wed 4th Dec 2013 02:17 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Socially awkward..."
panzi Member since:
2006-01-22

Unless they're intimidated if you're better than them at either one ;)

Even then I don't understand this. Does anyone know if this is a cultural thing? I haven't experienced such behavior (I live in Europe), but my social bubble is very tiny and I don't play online multiplayer games (maybe a bit Warsow once a year or so). So I just might miss this phenomenon.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Socially awkward...
by Ultimatebadass on Tue 3rd Dec 2013 23:26 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Socially awkward..."
Ultimatebadass Member since:
2006-01-08

Either way, if you're a hot chick, you're going to have lewd comments thrown your way. That's just the way the world works, and doesn't have much in particular to do with video games. For example, go on IRC as a female and see how many PMs you get from dudes.


Some do it on purpose to get free shit in MMOs or just enjoy the attention, it's an old trick. Naturally, that can provoke mixed reactions and it's where rather famous "no girls on the internet" meme ( http://i.imgur.com/9AC6E.png ) comes from.

Just like women in tech, I don't think we should discourage them from joining, nor should we have a real push to get more of them involved. Let those who are really into it come of their own accord, and obviously welcome them if they want to join the fun.


100% agree.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Socially awkward...
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Tue 3rd Dec 2013 23:37 UTC in reply to "RE: Socially awkward..."
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

You're quite correct Thom. There are all kinds of socially inept people playing games, not just those that are good at math and science.

If you act towards woman this way, you are by definition socially inept, regardless of your SAT scores.

Reply Score: 4

I'll get downvoted, but whatever
by p13. on Tue 3rd Dec 2013 23:08 UTC
p13.
Member since:
2005-07-10

First world problems.

Reply Score: 5

Gullible Jones Member since:
2006-05-23

Translation: "Other people have worse problems than you, so I can just ignore whatever problems you have."

Yeah. Real clever.

Reply Score: 3

p13. Member since:
2005-07-10

Not really. More like "I don't have any real problems, so i'll just make shit up to moan about."

Reply Score: 1

Wootery Member since:
2013-11-22

Sexism is indeed a first world problem - but one that's worth addressing.

You won't be downvoted though, evidently. The very idea that sexism might actually exist and be worth discussing is clearly unpopular on OSnews.

Reply Score: 6

p13. Member since:
2005-07-10

Yes, this is very much a first world problem. You won't hear some Afghan woman cry about being bothered on WoW.

Let's start with the fact that only men can be considered sexist, much in the same way that only white people are considered racist.
There is a lot of sexism in our culture, but it is not unilateral.
Let's start with taking care of:
- Child custody
- Alimony
- Unfair sentencing
- I can hit you, but you can't hit me
- Extreme feminism, which is an open display of sexism
- Gold digging marriages, why is this still a thing?
- The notion that equal rights implies "women first"
- ...

I could go on, but i think you get the point. If men decided to cry about this en masse, they could just as easily fill the river.

Before you go on and light the stake ...

I was raised by a single mother, along with three brothers and sisters. I know how hard life can be for a woman. I know the many TRUE unjustices that can be inflicted on a human being.

THIS is not one of them, it's fucking background noise.

Reply Score: 3

"Not a sexism problem"
by Gullible Jones on Tue 3rd Dec 2013 23:25 UTC
Gullible Jones
Member since:
2006-05-23

I'm surprised at the number of people saying this. It's about men in particular being assholes to women in particular. How the hell is that not a sexism problem?

Reply Score: 5

RE: "Not a sexism problem"
by Ultimatebadass on Tue 3rd Dec 2013 23:44 UTC in reply to ""Not a sexism problem""
Ultimatebadass Member since:
2006-01-08

Because those same people are just as likely to throw "i f--ked your mother" at you as "go back to the kitchen, c*nt" at a random women in the game.

I'll agree the loud assholes are mostly men but I think that's because:
a) they vastly outnumber women in most "hardcore gaming" situations (eg. random FPS multiplayer matches)
b) most women if they're being assholes they a more covert/social approach (which is mostly not possible in a random FPS match, MMOs are another matter)

Edited 2013-12-03 23:45 UTC

Reply Score: 5

Appalling.
by WereCatf on Wed 4th Dec 2013 01:28 UTC
WereCatf
Member since:
2006-02-15

Many of the comments here are very much appalling. You're saying we should just stay out of multiplayer or these things are just "first world problems" or whatever. Sure, that's your opinion, but I don't agree with such views.

For one, if you're a female gamer or tech enthusiast you're quite likely to see a lot of terribly condescending behaviour towards you, like assumptions that you're really just fishing for attention by doing "boy things" or that you just can't know jack shit about the things and then you get relegated to telephone support, or playing a secretary, or in games you have to work extra hard to prove that you do actually know the game and what to do. The prevalence of this condescending attitude is really depressing.

Secondly, ignoring things only works to an extent. As I said, this vitriol and hatred for females in "boys' circles" comes in many forms and via many venues and just staying out of multiplayer isn't going to fix it. Even the attitude some of you here have, the "it's not such an issue, everyone gets shit," just compounds on the issue. I mean, it's not just about flinging the occasional insult; if you have no experience of what it is like you don't really have any right to start belittling the issue at hand, the sheer magnitude of all the pressure, hatred, condescending speech and belittling can't just be ignored, you'd have to shut out the whole fucking world for that.

Meh. I'm really disappointed in you, folks, but then I didn't even expect anything better.

Reply Score: 8

RE: Appalling.
by Novan_Leon on Wed 4th Dec 2013 02:16 UTC in reply to "Appalling."
Novan_Leon Member since:
2005-12-07

Secondly, ignoring things only works to an extent. As I said, this vitriol and hatred for females in "boys' circles" comes in many forms and via many venues and just staying out of multiplayer isn't going to fix it. Even the attitude some of you here have, the "it's not such an issue, everyone gets shit," just compounds on the issue. I mean, it's not just about flinging the occasional insult; if you have no experience of what it is like you don't really have any right to start belittling the issue at hand, the sheer magnitude of all the pressure, hatred, condescending speech and belittling can't just be ignored, you'd have to shut out the whole fucking world for that.


I'm not going to presume to know what it's like to be a woman, nor should a woman presume to know what it's like to be a man, but I think either side can at least do their best to empathize with the other side through observation and communication with members of the opposite sex.

That said, you must travel in some pretty terrible social circles if the amount of pressure, hatred, condescending speech and belittling can't be ignored relatively easily. I find ignoring such things a simple matter of walking away, muting or refusing to engage in social activity with said offender, and I've yet to encounter a woman in my personal life who seemed helpless to avoid such vitriol herself.

Human beings are nasty things at their worst, and the occasional encounter with the darker side of humanity is unavoidable, but claiming to be helpless in the face of non-physical abuse from total strangers seems rather like taking a victim's attitude in life.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Appalling.
by kwan_e on Wed 4th Dec 2013 02:33 UTC in reply to "RE: Appalling."
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

I've yet to encounter a woman in my personal life who seemed helpless to avoid such vitriol herself.


The problem is why should they need to avoid it in the first place?

We don't walk through the city during the day on the look out for knifers all the time. We expect a general level of safety and non-threatening social interaction.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Appalling.
by Novan_Leon on Wed 4th Dec 2013 02:45 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Appalling."
Novan_Leon Member since:
2005-12-07

"I've yet to encounter a woman in my personal life who seemed helpless to avoid such vitriol herself.


The problem is why should they need to avoid it in the first place?

We don't walk through the city during the day on the look out for knifers all the time. We expect a general level of safety and non-threatening social interaction.
"

Because this is reality, and the real world isn't always a pretty place.

You may not walk through the city looking to be mugged, but you wouldn't walk through the Bronx at night simply because you feel you shouldn't have to avoid being mugged.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Appalling.
by kwan_e on Wed 4th Dec 2013 02:52 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Appalling."
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

"[q]I've yet to encounter a woman in my personal life who seemed helpless to avoid such vitriol herself.


The problem is why should they need to avoid it in the first place?

We don't walk through the city during the day on the look out for knifers all the time. We expect a general level of safety and non-threatening social interaction.
"

Because this is reality, and the real world isn't always a pretty place.

You may not walk through the city looking to be mugged, but you wouldn't walk through the Bronx at night simply because you feel you shouldn't have to avoid being mugged. [/q]

And the real world can be changed. Why do I always need to repeat this.

"It's the real world. It can't be changed. Blah blah blah"

Going online to a very public place of recreation should NOT be the equivalent of walking the Bronx at night, and here you are arguing that it SHOULD be like that because "it's the real world".

Pathetic and cowardly.

Reply Score: 5

RE[5]: Appalling.
by Novan_Leon on Wed 4th Dec 2013 03:19 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Appalling."
Novan_Leon Member since:
2005-12-07

And the real world can be changed. Why do I always need to repeat this.

"It's the real world. It can't be changed. Blah blah blah"

Going online to a very public place of recreation should NOT be the equivalent of walking the Bronx at night, and here you are arguing that it SHOULD be like that because "it's the real world".

Pathetic and cowardly.


You were the one that brought up walking through the city as a valid comparison, not me. The fact that you failed to understand the analogy is your own fault, not mine.

It's true, some things can't be changed, at least not without drastic action that brings along with it very harsh consequences. We could easily censor all verbal and written communication by way of an authoritarian government and the threat of force. This certainly would put a quick end to verbal abuse against women. Unfortunately this would also result in an end to personal freedom.

Since you so vehemently disagree, I'm curious to hear how you propose to go about changing reality in the name of this particular cause.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Appalling.
by kwan_e on Wed 4th Dec 2013 03:44 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Appalling."
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

You were the one that brought up walking through the city as a valid comparison, not me. The fact that you failed to understand the analogy is your own fault, not mine.


I explicitly said "during the day". Can't you read? Then you tried to counter with "during the night".

I understand my analogy just right.

Since you so vehemently disagree, I'm curious to hear how you propose to go about changing reality in the name of this particular cause.


I don't have a solution.

Just like the anti-slavery movement didn't really have a solution that everyone agreed to.

People like you have always been around when women and black suffrage movements were happening and will always be forgotten, or vilified for your cowardice and lack of perspective/action. An embarassing footnote on history.

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: Appalling.
by Novan_Leon on Wed 4th Dec 2013 03:58 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Appalling."
Novan_Leon Member since:
2005-12-07

I don't have a solution.

Just like the anti-slavery movement didn't really have a solution that everyone agreed to.

People like you have always been around when women and black suffrage movements were happening and will always be forgotten, or vilified for your cowardice and lack of perspective/action. An embarassing footnote on history.


Oh, cry me a river. Putting yourself on the side of the brave civil rights movement while painting me as one of the pathetic onlookers just sounds like a desperate move by someone with no argument.

You haven't advocated a single tangible, actionable change, so please dismount and give your high horse to someone who can actually contribute to the cause you claim to champion. Bravely crying, "change is possible!" while waving your finger and riding off into the sunset doesn't do anyone any good.

Edited 2013-12-04 04:01 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE: Appalling.
by kwan_e on Wed 4th Dec 2013 02:28 UTC in reply to "Appalling."
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

Meh. I'm really disappointed in you, folks, but then I didn't even expect anything better.


Every time Thom or someone posts something about social issues relating to tech, the majority of comments here that I see that get massively upvoted are those that try to be cynical:

1) Neil Armstrong - a person who shouldn't be lauded because it magically takes away from the efforts of others.

2) Alan Turing - a person who shouldn't get lauded or pardoned because it magically takes away from the efforts of others AND magically closes the door on LGBT rights. Somehow. Some inexplicable bullshit that gets repeated. The same stupid all-or-nothing crap that tends towards the latter, but makes people feel good for being oh so world weary and cynicaler-than-thou.

3) Gender issues in gaming - doesn't exist, or no-big-deal, or need to toughen up blah blah bullshit blah.

If I remember correctly, you specifically were arguing for point 2 when it came up a few times. If I'm wrong, my gravest apologies. But if I'm not, well, I don't think you can point the finger. If you argue for any of those points, you are feeding the culture of righteous cynicism that pretends to be deep and meaningful but is really just defeatism and ego-boosting.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Appalling.
by leos on Wed 4th Dec 2013 04:19 UTC in reply to "Appalling."
leos Member since:
2005-09-21

Even the attitude some of you here have, the "it's not such an issue, everyone gets shit," just compounds on the issue


The few times I played online FPS games it was a constant stream of insults and personal attacks and swearing and threats and comments about people's mothers. There were no women playing as far as I know but that was the environment regardless. Constant stream of abuse at anyone and everyone.
I learned pretty quickly that there are tons of idiots playing online and you're better off playing with friends or muting the chat. Maybe women get more of it, but certainly the norm in many games is pure shit.

Reply Score: 7

RE: Appalling.
by saso on Wed 4th Dec 2013 12:50 UTC in reply to "Appalling."
saso Member since:
2007-04-18

For one, if you're a female gamer or tech enthusiast you're quite likely to see a lot of terribly condescending behaviour towards you, like assumptions that you're really just fishing for attention by doing "boy things" or that you just can't know jack shit about the things and then you get relegated to telephone support, or playing a secretary, or in games you have to work extra hard to prove that you do actually know the game and what to do. The prevalence of this condescending attitude is really depressing.

Talking specifically about tech professionals: Are you sure that the condescension and judging doesn't simply come by way of the majority-minority prejudices? (i.e. any differences are perceived as reasons for distrust.)
As for phone support and secretary work, I've yet to see a capable tech hire not being put to good use, regardless of their looks. I had one female classmate in college and she was quite skilled and persistent. Haven't been following her life very closely, but she didn't seem to have any trouble getting a decent job (unlike some of my male fellows), both while we were still studying and after we had graduated. I will readily admit that there are precious few women in the hard-core coding arena, but I'm not sure if that's due to prejudices, or simply lack of interest (have yet to see any female job applicants where I was involved in hiring).

Reply Score: 3

RE: Appalling.
by p13. on Thu 5th Dec 2013 08:11 UTC in reply to "Appalling."
p13. Member since:
2005-07-10

This case is a first world problem. Period.
You join some kind of FPS game filled with 99% guys, and then you complain about the fact that some of them are assholes. In other news, water is wet.

Maybe i should walk in to some hair salon and endure the endless tales and ranting about "MEN!". Women can be assholes, too. Thinking otherwise would be sexist.

As for your IT comments. I find it to be quite the opposite. The vast majority are still men, but the women i work with are just as qualified. None of them complain about being bothered by men.

Let's focus on the things that do need addressing, such as rape, genital mutilation, harems, violence towards women, etc.

You're just being offended because you feel that all of the sexist situations in the world somehow directly apply to you. Allow me to explain.

Guy sees woman beating a man on youtube. Everybody laughs. Not a single guy is offended.
People witness the guy hitting back. OUTRAGE

Please observe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbPmdePpfG0

Edited 2013-12-05 08:25 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Dear fellow males
by tylerdurden on Wed 4th Dec 2013 02:03 UTC
tylerdurden
Member since:
2009-03-17

The lack of self awareness of many posters is tragically proving the point.

Perhaps us guys should let women speak and hear their point of view, before rushing to say what they should or should not feel/experience/behave/do?

Reply Score: 7

RE: Dear fellow males
by Novan_Leon on Wed 4th Dec 2013 02:34 UTC in reply to "Dear fellow males"
Novan_Leon Member since:
2005-12-07

The lack of self awareness of many posters is tragically proving the point.

Perhaps us guys should let women speak and hear their point of view, before rushing to say what they should or should not feel/experience/behave/do?


Who says we haven't? This has been a common topic on the internet (and elsewhere) for ages. Personally, I find it more constructive for people to concentrate on things THEY can do to remedy the situation for THEMSELVES than go online and demand bad people stop being bad. Bad people will always exist, and anonymity will bring out the worst behavior in many. Nothing short of total censorship will change this, and even then you're only hiding the symptoms, not curing the illness.

Why should a woman who is called the C-word receive more attention and sympathy from a man who is called the same or worse? Evolutionary psychology would suggest that women are more sensitive to aggression (i.e. have thinner skin) than men. At the same time, men are far more protective of women who experience said aggression than of other men. There's a strong case to be made, based on the evidence, that PERCEIVED aggression against women may be significantly higher than ACTUAL aggression. Take that for what you will.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Dear fellow males
by kwan_e on Wed 4th Dec 2013 02:41 UTC in reply to "RE: Dear fellow males"
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

Why should a woman who is called the C-word receive more attention and sympathy from a man who is called the same or worse? Evolutionary psychology would suggest that women are more sensitive to aggression (i.e. have thinner skin) than men. At the same time, men are far more protective of women who experience said aggression than of other men. There's a strong case to be made, based on the evidence, that PERCEIVED aggression against women may be significantly higher than ACTUAL aggression. Take that for what you will.


If the word "cunt" is REALLY the highest level of abuse you can imagine for female gamers online, then you really have no clue.

Threats of rape, and rapey-vibed comments happen quite frequently. Males rarely gets rape threats and those that do tends to get threats to female members of their family.

You can capitalized PERCEIVED all you want, but you are making the same stupid mistake by not actually facing up to the ACTUAL abuse that can happen.

The word "cunt" is just the beginning.

Reply Score: 6

RE[3]: Dear fellow males
by Novan_Leon on Wed 4th Dec 2013 02:56 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Dear fellow males"
Novan_Leon Member since:
2005-12-07

If the word "cunt" is REALLY the highest level of abuse you can imagine for female gamers online, then you really have no clue.

Threats of rape, and rapey-vibed comments happen quite frequently. Males rarely gets rape threats and those that do tends to get threats to female members of their family.

You can capitalized PERCEIVED all you want, but you are making the same stupid mistake by not actually facing up to the ACTUAL abuse that can happen.

The word "cunt" is just the beginning.


Are you kidding me? I've received rape threats hundreds of times online. I just used the C-word as an example.

ACTUAL abuse happening somewhere doesn't validate all threats of abuse everywhere.

I can see I've hit an emotional note with you, but don't lose your ability to reason as a result. Nobody is claiming actual abuse doesn't happen or even that all verbal abuse is avoidable or meaningless. I'm merely reciting the evidence as it stands, and the scope of the evidence is in generalities, not specifics.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Dear fellow males
by kwan_e on Wed 4th Dec 2013 03:06 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Dear fellow males"
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

I can see I've hit an emotional note with you, but don't lose your ability to reason as a result.


You lose as soon as you accuse someone's reason for disagreeing with you is because you've supposedly hit an emotional note.

Are you kidding me? I've received rape threats hundreds of times online.


Give us examples then.

I'm a guy, and even I find some of the rapey comments disturbing. Comments that cannot be taken as banter no matter how hard you try.

I'm going to stick my neck out and say the rape "threats" you get are very non-specific and that you get a lot more directed to your female family members.

Edited 2013-12-04 03:10 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: Dear fellow males
by Novan_Leon on Wed 4th Dec 2013 03:28 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Dear fellow males"
Novan_Leon Member since:
2005-12-07

You lose as soon as you accuse someone's reason for disagreeing with you is because you've supposedly hit an emotional note.


Oh really? I didn't know that rule. I thought it was when you started slinging insults like pathetic and cowardly. I'll need to consult my "Arguing on the Internet Handbook" next time. ;)

Give us examples then.


I'm going to assume you're joking. You think I save these things, or even remember who they came from? There's your problem right there.

I'm a guy, and even I find some of the rapey comments disturbing. Comments that cannot be taken as banter no matter how hard you try.

I'm going to stick my neck out and say the rape "threats" you get are very non-specific and that you get a lot more directed to your female family members.


And where are you receiving these comments? Because I've yet to encounter a situation where clicking "delete", pressing the "spam" button or muting the microphone didn't work wonders.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Dear fellow males
by kwan_e on Wed 4th Dec 2013 03:40 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Dear fellow males"
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

And where are you receiving these comments? Because I've yet to encounter a situation where clicking "delete", pressing the "spam" button or muting the microphone didn't work wonders.


I'm not receiving comments. I'm just reporting what female gamers have reported receiving. Spam, delete and mute buttons does not prevent reading/hearing the threats in the first instance, unless you automatically block everyone from communicating with you from the outset, which defeats the whole purpose of the social gaming aspect.

I don't know about you, but when I walk into a coffee shop, I don't expect to hear racial vilification, for example.

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: Dear fellow males
by Novan_Leon on Wed 4th Dec 2013 03:53 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Dear fellow males"
Novan_Leon Member since:
2005-12-07

I'm not receiving comments. I'm just reporting what female gamers have reported receiving. Spam, delete and mute buttons does not prevent reading/hearing the threats in the first instance, unless you automatically block everyone from communicating with you from the outset, which defeats the whole purpose of the social gaming aspect.

I don't know about you, but when I walk into a coffee shop, I don't expect to hear racial vilification, for example.


So how are these vitriolic comments being received by female gamers indicative of a sexism issue when I, and I'm willing to wager MOST male gamers, have received similar threats?

The difference between receiving threats or offensive remarks in a coffee shop and an online videogame is massive. One implies personal contact with the threat of physical violence or intimidation, as well as accountability for the perpetrator. The other is an anonymous online arena where you are in control. Having similar expectations for both situations seems incredibly naive to me.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Dear fellow males
by tylerdurden on Wed 4th Dec 2013 06:13 UTC in reply to "RE: Dear fellow males"
tylerdurden Member since:
2009-03-17

I take basic reading and comprehension ain't your things. Different strokes, I guess.


It really is very simple: Those who are affected by the issue should be the ones expressing their point of view about it, while those who aren't should be the ones doing the listening. Some people seem to have a fantastically hard time grasping such a basic concept somehow...

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Dear fellow males
by leos on Wed 4th Dec 2013 20:33 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Dear fellow males"
leos Member since:
2005-09-21

I take basic reading and comprehension ain't your things. Different strokes, I guess.


It really is very simple: Those who are affected by the issue should be the ones expressing their point of view about it, while those who aren't should be the ones doing the listening. Some people seem to have a fantastically hard time grasping such a basic concept somehow...


You seem to think that hasn't happened. The issue is clear. There are lots of jerks and abusive idiots playing games, and a potentially disproportionate amount of abuse is faced by people with minority attributes in that group (female, race, sexual orientation, lack of skill, overweight, etc).

There is nothing to be gained by explaining for the 100th time that this is the case. What I have yet to see is an effective proposal to improve the situation. A generic appeal for everyone to be nice mmmkay is not going to to do it. So let's hear something realistic. The regular non-abusive gamer can do nothing to help this situation. This is not like real life where bystanders can step in to prevent abuse. It's really in the hands of game companies (strict family friendly servers) or enforcing real name policies so that abusers are easily traceable.

Edited 2013-12-04 20:35 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: Dear fellow males
by lucas_maximus on Thu 5th Dec 2013 18:12 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Dear fellow males"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

The thing is that the same behaviour exists in any male dominated environment.

* Coach Park Cafe (Spain). Pretty much every person there is guy that fixes coaches for a living ... think big fat greasy men in boiler suits ... one of the HR girls at work offered to drive down and pick us breakfast up (Bacon and egg rolls). She was cat called for a good 10 minutes while she was waiting for the order to finish.

She didn't offer to do a breakfast run again.

* Country pub (UK, Dorset). Barmaid got hit on about 30 times a night. To the point where my Father and I was embarrassed to drink there.

* Pool Club London ... pretty much the same as the above.

* I worked at the retail chain at Tesco's for a good few years while at University. Most of the I worked with were about 16-25 ... new Girl starts there in the same age range ... every guy pesters her until they get the message.

Most of it is pretty harmless, just guys making fools of themselves, but I think it illustrates the point really.

Edited 2013-12-05 18:18 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: Dear fellow males
by zima on Sun 8th Dec 2013 06:56 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Dear fellow males"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

There are lots of jerks and abusive idiots playing games, and a potentially disproportionate amount of abuse is faced by people with minority attributes in that group (female, race, sexual orientation, lack of skill, overweight, etc).

Overweight, a minority? ;p

Reply Score: 2

really
by MarkTime11 on Wed 4th Dec 2013 03:42 UTC
MarkTime11
Member since:
2010-07-16

there are real problems with sexism in this world, men don't get custody so often, as they should as full and equal parents.

In my country they don't get family leave for the same amount of time, at many corporations, as they should, as full and equal humans.

They don't get the same sentencing in court, but harsher ones.

But today the subject is video games and why not. No need to discuss higher education where boys are under represented... The gender gap favoring women for many years now....gender equality in education anyone?

The game is obvious enough, find any vestige of anything where boys seem to dominate and then lay on the criticism.

boys are immature, as are girls. Maturity comes with age.

I am not going to defend immaturity, I hope you solve this age old problem. I teach my children, both girl and boy, they are equal. I don't look to exalt one and condemn the other.

Reply Score: 4

Not just gamers.
by Darkmage on Wed 4th Dec 2013 07:16 UTC
Darkmage
Member since:
2006-10-20

This flows into general ICT as well. I've seen women goto IT shops to have hard drives replaced, and have techs tell them that the entire machine needs to be replaced. FFS a hard drive is $100. Telling someone to replace their entire laptop of 6 months is stupid and exploitative. Everyone deserves access to the digital frontier. Technicians that operate that way are garbage.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Not just gamers.
by saso on Wed 4th Dec 2013 12:23 UTC in reply to "Not just gamers."
saso Member since:
2007-04-18

How can you be sure it just wasn't crummy techs who are trying to get away with bamboozling a poor sucker? It's not like that hasn't happened to plenty of men before.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Not just gamers.
by lucas_maximus on Thu 5th Dec 2013 18:07 UTC in reply to "Not just gamers."
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

I think this is more a symptom of IT shops trying to scam people. When they know what you are talking about, the soon change their tune.

Reply Score: 4

Sexism
by twitterfire on Wed 4th Dec 2013 09:28 UTC
twitterfire
Member since:
2008-09-11

To say women should be treated different and they should have more rights just because they are women is sexism.

I think we have a non issue. I played lots of mmorpgs, encountered lots of girls playing and I didn't see any of them being treated worse than a guy.

A hardcore mmorpg gamer will treat you bad if you ruin his fun by making stupid mistakes like repetedly wiping parties of raids, but that is regardless of gender. And I've heared both male and female players saying "fuck you, you suck" to other players in voice chat.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Sexism
by kwan_e on Wed 4th Dec 2013 10:40 UTC in reply to "Sexism"
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

To say women should be treated different and they should have more rights just because they are women is sexism.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Reply Score: 5

Well, we know who the devils are
by NicePics13 on Wed 4th Dec 2013 10:11 UTC
NicePics13
Member since:
2009-06-08

"Given enough money, I could make guys buy tampons" - Rodger Roeser, president of marketing firm the Eisen Agency

It's all about the money, no wonder I'm so blasé when it comes to the latest AAA titles. Playing through Twilight Princess actually made me depressed, Bioshock _is_ System Shock 2 only dumberer, Fallout 3 was a f--king joke (FNV is OKish).
At least we have the indies and GOG where hardcore gamers still get their money's worth.

Edited 2013-12-04 10:11 UTC

Reply Score: 3

The sexism is probably there.
by osvil on Wed 4th Dec 2013 10:34 UTC
osvil
Member since:
2012-10-25

I have played online games quite a lot. Mostly MMORPGs. From Everquest to World of Warcraft. I am a guy, but quite often I've played female characters just because I liked their models more than the male ones.

I remember in Everquest some random guy making me presents and talking quite a lot, then I realized it was because he was trying to 'hit' me. At that point I made clear there was a guy behind that female avatar. This happens, and happens a lot.

Playing I've heard plenty of related stories, not all that simple. What I've found is that this happens a lot. Some may even abuse/try to intimidate. What I fear is that this isn't probably something that happens in online play, but that also happens "in real life". However, in the games I was able to peek at this reality because I happened to play a female avatar (a random choice, as I didn't think it would make a difference). What makes me think that this is not only about online games is a set of stories that I've been told by female friends.

It is creepy. Really creepy.

Reply Score: 4

Comment by nagerst
by nagerst on Wed 4th Dec 2013 10:40 UTC
nagerst
Member since:
2013-11-07

I would suggest you play something for more mature audiences and not some one board kids game like LoL.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by lucas_maximus
by lucas_maximus on Wed 4th Dec 2013 12:55 UTC
lucas_maximus
Member since:
2009-08-18

If the selection at the average retailer is anything to go by, girls don't play video games. If cultural stereotypes are anything to go by, video games are for males. They're the makers, the buyers and the players.


Nobody says the same thing about Action movies, which are made by men for men and marketed to men.

If people want the situation to change Women have to be making video games for Women. There is already several examples of successful women that were heading the development or design of triple A games, so I expect the situation will eventually sort itself out.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Comment by lucas_maximus
by twitterfire on Wed 4th Dec 2013 13:10 UTC in reply to "Comment by lucas_maximus"
twitterfire Member since:
2008-09-11

Like there are the bad guys who by all means necessary are trying to stop you to reach your favourite clothes store and you make lots of points by shopping?

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by lucas_maximus
by iarann on Thu 5th Dec 2013 06:07 UTC in reply to "Comment by lucas_maximus"
iarann Member since:
2006-05-14


Nobody says the same thing about Action movies, which are made by men for men and marketed to men.


Actually, people do discuss this all the time. You can find plenty of discussion about it related to Wonder Woman and why a movie isn't in production yet.


If people want the situation to change Women have to be making video games for Women. There is already several examples of successful women that were heading the development or design of triple A games, so I expect the situation will eventually sort itself out.


So your solution is women should be segregated into playing their own games rather than the mass market games taking a more mature approach to anatomy and gender issues? Honestly, I feel video games are ahead of the curve on some of these issues, especially with the Lara Croft titles or Resident Evil series as examples, or even as far back as Metroid, but it's stupid to pretend some of the blatent chauvanism we see in video games is ok just because those games are made for guys and women should avoid them.

Reply Score: 5

lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Actually, people do discuss this all the time. You can find plenty of discussion about it related to Wonder Woman and why a movie isn't in production yet.


Action Movies not super hero movies.

So your solution is women should be segregated into playing their own games rather than the mass market games taking a more mature approach to anatomy and gender issues?


I didn't quite mean that. But a lot of games that have either had women as game designers, head of development haven't or some other important role hasn't had crap female characters where the cut scene or some plot development was soo bad I was embarrassed to own a penis.

Honestly, I feel video games are ahead of the curve on some of these issues, especially with the Lara Croft titles or Resident Evil series as examples, or even as far back as Metroid, but it's stupid to pretend some of the blatent chauvanism we see in video games is ok just because those games are made for guys and women should avoid them.


I don't.

* GTA V most of the women characters in it were jokes (girl with a tramp stamp, overly uptight career woman, bored middle aged house wife).
* Last of us while you had 1 chapter where you could play Ellie, she still has to be saved by Joel (if you played the game you know what chapter I am talking about).

* Call of Duty Modern Warfare series hasn't even had a woman in that didn't get murdered in one way or another.

* Lara Croft has been just about tits and guns, until very recently

* Resident Evil ... did you not play 4 or 5? Shiva was bloody useless and I was hoping Sadler would kill Ashley because she was quite honestly the most irritating RE character since Sherry.

Reply Score: 4

My eyes!!!
by olafg on Wed 4th Dec 2013 19:14 UTC
olafg
Member since:
2010-05-27

That page hurt my eyes! Oh the colours…

Seriously, please be a bit more factual when starting a discussion about sexism. Inviting to a discussion based on moral indignation without facts is kind of pointless.

What's next on OS news? Complaints about dog-owners? I have plenty! They are all selfish assholes.

Reply Score: 3

RE: My eyes!!!
by twitterfire on Thu 5th Dec 2013 07:20 UTC in reply to "My eyes!!!"
twitterfire Member since:
2008-09-11


What's next on OS news? Complaints about dog-owners? I have plenty! They are all selfish assholes.

Well, people will complain on OSnews about dog owners only if the said owners arent female, homosexuals, jews or blacks. Otherwise it would be politically incorrect.

Reply Score: 4

Pathetic
by kwan_e on Wed 4th Dec 2013 23:32 UTC
kwan_e
Member since:
2007-02-18

Gotta love the comments trying to paint the male gamers as the oppressed/harrassed group. Gotta love those same commenters not understanding the strawman arguments they are making.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Pathetic
by NicePics13 on Thu 5th Dec 2013 10:18 UTC in reply to "Pathetic"
NicePics13 Member since:
2009-06-08
RE[2]: Pathetic
by kwan_e on Thu 5th Dec 2013 10:36 UTC in reply to "RE: Pathetic"
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18



Oh, how brave of you, internet cynic. Keep making strawmen arguments because that's all you're good for.

-------------------------

My record is clear:

- Neil Armstrong
- Alan Turing
- This

Unlike c*nts like you, I can argue for things that don't benefit me directly.

What do I get arguing for Alan Turing or Neil Armstrong against the hoardes of fake-cynics that infest this website?

Edited 2013-12-05 10:38 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Pathetic
by NicePics13 on Thu 5th Dec 2013 11:34 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Pathetic"
NicePics13 Member since:
2009-06-08

Keep making strawmen arguments

I don't think you know what a strawman is. Perhaps Wikipedia can help?

Neil Armstrong, Alan Turing

They were camwhores that needed rescuing as well?

Unlike c*nts like you, I can argue for things that don't benefit me directly

Can you now? A simple cunt like myself just cannot take women like this seriously.. women the goddamn President of the USA said were twice as good as men at everything, and in high heels to boot! .. running to Daddy Gov when the boys game they joined - of their own free will, mind you - got rough.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Pathetic
by kwan_e on Thu 5th Dec 2013 12:02 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Pathetic"
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

when the boys game they joined - of their own free will, mind you - got rough.


Oh you macho man you.

Did you get beat up as a kid for being a nerd? Because I can see why you deserved it. Using your own logic to boot.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Pathetic
by NicePics13 on Thu 5th Dec 2013 12:07 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Pathetic"
NicePics13 Member since:
2009-06-08

You would hit this nerdy faggot with glasses, wouldn't you? I'm gonna get my Mom!

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Pathetic
by Ultimatebadass on Thu 5th Dec 2013 16:11 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Pathetic"
Ultimatebadass Member since:
2006-01-08

Don't waste your keyboard, it's just tumblr angry social "justice" "warriors" club at it again.

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: Pathetic
by kwan_e on Sat 7th Dec 2013 05:59 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Pathetic"
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

"Yeah, I got my computer games in which I can be a macho tosser and tell girls (because I won't dare to do that in real life), so screw the rest of you with your social justice crap. Me me me me me."

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Pathetic
by Ultimatebadass on Sat 7th Dec 2013 09:40 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Pathetic"
Ultimatebadass Member since:
2006-01-08

Haha, yeah, get that righteous anger going good, it makes you look really serious and important!

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Pathetic
by kwan_e on Sat 7th Dec 2013 10:30 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Pathetic"
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

Yeah, get your cynicism going good. Makes you look real wise and insightful.

Reply Score: 2

nobody sexually harasses ugly chicks
by jangoboy on Fri 6th Dec 2013 23:18 UTC
jangoboy
Member since:
2012-10-09

I personaly have no desire to say crude and sexual thing to ugly chicks, partly from fear they would take me up on it. Now if she was hot I may in my own head thinks things about her natural aptitude for curtain activities.
If I were to ever admit this things that makes me a terrible person. Because dressing up slutty, putting on makeup in an attempt to illicit these feels in all the random guys she meets aint f--ked up. Calling her a f--king slut who would make a great cock sucker is. I personally don't want to be the collateral hormones for some chicks quest to breed along with the 5000 other guys shes "accidentaly" sex appeals along the way. I wonder how the porn companies get so many customers. Its probably cuz hot chicks wear baggy clothing and don't show their asses off to everybody right? Excuse me for being offended by females acting like sluts. I am not gay or female so I rage about the slutty guys the same way I can about females who I am never gonna breed with, never gonna date, never gonna seriously consider as prospects for reproducing with but who are literally out there trying to sex appeal me and all the other stray guys she meets, sarcasm. When this chick gets up in the morning and picks her clothes out, does her hair, etc, wtf do you think shes going for. If I see a female out dresses like a hooker cuz shes trying to emulate the celebrities and her tits making me to want a tit f--k, then I yell out the window give me a tit f--k, whose f--ked up here? the person trying to elicit that desire in me or the the victim of this situation. Not even going into why the f--k would I want to f--k some chick as if thats gonna make a baby and if I am not the f--ked up one that chick has got some f--king modified tits to make me want to do that.

Edited 2013-12-06 23:24 UTC

Reply Score: 1

Gullible Jones Member since:
2006-05-23

f--k you, too.

Reply Score: 2

Gullible Jones Member since:
2006-05-23

No seriously, don't you think people have some right not to be bullied and shat upon for wearing clothing that you find provocative? Or for being attractive to you? I mean gods forbid, some woman has the nerve to present as sexually attractive to your highness but isn't actually interested in sex, oh noes! The terrible insult!

I do not have words adequate to describe my disgust. Get lost. Get your stupid ass out of here and don't come back.

Edited 2013-12-07 00:27 UTC

Reply Score: 2

jangoboy Member since:
2012-10-09

do you know what the definition of rape is? forcing you sexual attention on others. Did you just tell me to f--k myself for not liking it? Because I am starting think your mouth looks sexy now and that if rape aint wrong how about I put my dick in your mouth, you want to talk about degree how about I just rub it on your face and call it a compliment? Me rubbing my dick in your face is pretty sexual right, god forbid you have a say in being the target of this, I mean f--k me right. I mean I Could understand if your gay that the stray sex appeal would be something you wouldn't notice or be bothered by, but some people do have care. Or maybe your a swinger and being a failed marriage statistic is how your roll, well good for you but that is not how I want to live. Theres a saying the ends dont justify the means and people get thrown out of court for doing things the wrong way regardless if they were the right thing or not. I don't agree with everybody who does something that may or may not be directly related to someone being female.

Edited 2013-12-08 07:16 UTC

Reply Score: 1