Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 20th Jan 2014 23:59 UTC, submitted by Drumhellar
FreeBSD

FreeBSD 10 has been released. You can read the release notes, and, of course, go ahead and install it.

Order by: Score:
Comment by Drumhellar
by Drumhellar on Tue 21st Jan 2014 00:35 UTC
Drumhellar
Member since:
2005-07-12

Hmm... I thought there was more to the post, but, I also remember erasing most of my submission at the absolute last second. Maybe I should have re-submitted?



Anyways, some new things in FreeBSD-10 include:

-Virtualization improvements - Bhyve, the FreeBSD Hypervisor, virtio support for running FreeBSD under Linux KVM, and native drivers for running FreeBSD as a Microsoft Hyper-V Guest.

-Ability to use ZFS as the root filesystem as part of the standard install, plus other ZFS improvements, such as L4Z compression, and TRIM support for ZFS.

-The old package tools are gone, and the newer pkgng tools are included by default.

-GCC has been removed from architectures where clang is the default (i386 and AMD64, maybe others?)

-KMS improvements, including the newcons driver for graphical console support.

FreeBSD-10-RELEASE is available for i386, amd64, ia64, powerpc, powerpc64, and sparc64 architectures.

Reply Score: 8

RE: Comment by Drumhellar
by Luminair on Tue 21st Jan 2014 00:54 UTC in reply to "Comment by Drumhellar"
Luminair Member since:
2007-03-30

I love the direction FreeBSD has been taking over the last several versions. It is a line moving very much upward. People need to line up behind this bad boy

Reply Score: 3

RE: Comment by Drumhellar
by renox on Fri 24th Jan 2014 09:17 UTC in reply to "Comment by Drumhellar"
renox Member since:
2005-07-06

And capsicum (a security tool) is activated by default.

Which makes FreeBSD the first 'general purpose' OS to use capabilities for security, of course it is only useful when programs are modified to using it, which only a few do currently, but it's a start and it's progress!

Reply Score: 2

UltraZelda64
Member since:
2006-12-05

I recently bought a laptop and over the last week or two have been planning on converting my old combined desktop/server machine into a pure server, complete with a traditional server-grade distro. I narrowed my choices down to Alpine Linux, Debian, Ubuntu Server (just out of curiousity I decided to test it), CentOS, Slackware, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Dragonfly BSD, FreeNAS, and NAS4Free (all 64-bit versions).

Just yesterday I gave them all a comparison run in virtual machines, and only eliminated Alpine, NetBSD, Dragonfly, FreeNAS and NAS4Free (well, and CentOS--but only because I didn't have an ISO image available at the time and no working Internet connection or time to obtain it). I really wanted to give one of the BSDs a try since I've never actually put them to serious use and I figured that for a server they would be perfect (and a great learning experience), and if FreeBSD 10 would have been out just a little bit earlier it would have been even better. Perfect timing, I gave up waiting just hours before its release.

But I do have a question for anyone familiar; I have a Broadcom 4318/AirForce One (and unfortunately have to use it) and I could not get it to be recognized in FreeBSD. OpenBSD recognized it easily, but complained that firmware was needed and all the instructions I found said "use an Internet connection," so that was the end of my run with OpenBSD as well (the files I took out of /lib/firmware in my previous Linux distro did not work either). According to various web pages, FreeBSD also uses the "BWI" driver that OpenBSD uses. Is there something simple that I missed to get FreeBSD to load the drivers and recognize the card, or does it literally require installing the drivers as well as the firmware?

Edited 2014-01-21 04:15 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Drumhellar Member since:
2005-07-12

Try using the bwn driver - the man page lists the AirForce card as supported by it. It's mostly the same as bwi, but designed for newer cards that have larger firmwares.

And, the firmware isn't included for this card. To get it, you need to install the correct port from the ports tree - ports/net/bwn-firmware-kmod

Which means, net access for the ports tree. If you have the ports tree installed and can easily enough move files from another machine to the FreeBSD setup, you can go into /usr/ports/net/bwn-formware-kmod and run make fetch-recursive-list >> filename to generate a shell script which will automatically pull the necessary files and dependencies for building. Stick them in /usr/ports/distfiles and run make from /usr/ports/net/bwn-firmware-kmod

I'm guessing there is a licensing issue for the firmware - other wireless drivers with binary blobs are available out of the box in FreeBSD, including the very-well-supported Atheros chips.

Reply Score: 4

p13. Member since:
2005-07-10

Are you being serious?

Reply Score: 3

allanregistos Member since:
2011-02-10

Are you being serious?

Yes, I am. But for the thing that 'I never installed FreeBSD' because of the logo, I am not serious. I may install it if its needed in my work and have time.

I am glad again that I am getting down voted because of telling the truth.

You know, the secularization/(I don't know what term to use) of all things, including symbols and even religious symbols have some serious bad effect. One of these things is the use of Logo. I understand that non-religious people don't care so much about logos or symbols as long as they are pleasing to the eye.

But you know many people would care so much about symbols even the Chinese with their feng shui.

I am not comfortable with the logo, not because I am a Christian, but because the logo really looks bad and not pleasing to the eye. You love a demonic figure with horns and with a fork in his hands??? Fine!!! But for a project that caters the needs of the WHOLE PUBLIC, I repeat again = WHOLE PUBLIC, then you need to be certain that you are not going to offend even one person out of your million customers.

Reply Score: 1

Jaxxed Member since:
2010-05-29

Firstly, one can never make 1,000,000 potential users/customers happy.

Secondly, the FBSD character is a play on the 'daemon' concept, a prevalent name used for background service in UNIX, DOS, Windows, OSX ....
If you find the logo childish, then it's one thing; if you find the logo abhorrent because of the devil reference, then you should walk away from computers now ... as daemons are running your circuits.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_(computer_software)

Reply Score: 2

rhavenn Member since:
2006-05-12

You need to get out more. Wow.

Reply Score: 2

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

But for a project that caters the needs of the WHOLE PUBLIC, I repeat again = WHOLE PUBLIC, then you need to be certain that you are not going to offend even one person out of your million customers.


No you don't. There are people who get offended for all kinds of strange reasons and catering to all of those is insane. Create the product you want and screw people who are easily offended.
Also, the demon with the pitchfork is the mascot, not the logo. The logo is the shiny globe thing with horns.

Edited 2014-01-22 20:11 UTC

Reply Score: 3

allanregistos Member since:
2011-02-10

"But for a project that caters the needs of the WHOLE PUBLIC, I repeat again = WHOLE PUBLIC, then you need to be certain that you are not going to offend even one person out of your million customers.


No you don't. There are people who get offended for all kinds of strange reasons and catering to all of those is insane. Create the product you want and screw people who are easily offended.
Also, the demon with the pitchfork is the mascot, not the logo. The logo is the shiny globe thing with horns.
"
Sorry for confusing the mascot with a logo. I can't imagine a store selling DVD images of OSes, and of these was FreeBSD's and always explaining the mascot to customers.

Reply Score: 1

zima Member since:
2005-07-06

I can't imagine a store selling DVD images of OSes, and of these was FreeBSD's and always explaining the mascot to customers.

Most people wouldn't care / would think it's cute - most people aren't crazy the way you are.

Reply Score: 2

zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Unfortunately, he is serious; from time to time he goes mental on ~religion related "issues"...

Reply Score: 2

Wafflez Member since:
2011-06-26

We got a pokemon hater here!

Reply Score: 5

SunOS Member since:
2011-07-12

Haha reminds me of god fearing Texans - http://rmitz.org/freebsd.daemon.html

Reply Score: 4

saso Member since:
2007-04-18

Haha reminds me of god fearing Texans - http://rmitz.org/freebsd.daemon.html

Wow, that reads like something you'd expect to see happen in like the 18th century...

Reply Score: 3

kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

Most people are just superficial. People still think, for example, that the views of characters expressed in a book/show/movie is that of the author.

Reply Score: 2

14YearsLoyal2FreeBSD Member since:
2014-01-21

Sadly, this is absolutely true.

I have been a loyal user of FreeBSD for over 14 years.

However, I cannot get anyone to consider FreeBSD seriously when I make a proposal and a corporate officer visits the website and sees demon ears sticking out of a circle. I also can't evangelize for it without losing followers on twitter, etc., and all because of the logo. Despite the insanity of it, people still judge things by what they can see. And the first impression still counts to someone new to a product.

Not everyone reads programming websites day in and day out and grasps the true wonder of FreeBSD. However unfair this may be, some people still visit the website the ordinary way and see the logo and dismiss FreeBSD from further consideration.

Reply Score: 1

saso Member since:
2007-04-18

Well, if it's any consolation, people who were prepared to turn FreeBSD down simply because of the logo probably weren't worth your time anyway.

Reply Score: 3

Doc Pain Member since:
2006-10-08

Sadly, this is absolutely true.


And it says a lot about people.

I don't want to hurt anyone's religious feelings, but why can't self-proclaimed "adult people" simply ignore things that are so totally unimportant and don't matter? For the choice of an operating system I don't even consider the project or corporate logos a second. They don't matter. What has the software to offer, will it fit my requirements - those are the important questions.

Seeing a red sphere with two spikes any yelling: "I'm haunted! The devil will eat my soul! I don't want to be a sinner!" is exceptionally immature and has, in my opinion, nothing to do with (educated and true) belief.

What's next? Interpreting the four squares of the new MICROS~1 logo as a swastika and yelling: "This is nazi software! I don't want to hurt jews when I install it!" Is this example exxagerated, policitally incorrect and disgusting? I think so. But I wanted to use an actual extreme construction of something that does not apply to show how futile such discussions are.

VM has a green teddy bear. "But bears aren't green, and I fear them! Also, they are common tools of child molesters, and I don't want to be considered one."

OpenVMS had a shark. "I hate sharks. They kill innocent people all the time. And they taste ugly. Also they are too expensive."

Go has a hamster. "Rodents are annoying. They eat your cables and lose their shit everywhere. I don't want to use a programming language that has shit in it."

Apple has an apple. "That's the fruit of sin! I will be doomed if I install Mac OS X or use an iPhone!"

Android has a robot. "Those robots are not to be trusted. They will soon turn against me and kill my family. I don't want to have a smartphone that kills people."

Python has snakes. "I just hate snakes! They are the animals of the devil, the worshippers of evil! I refuse to use any software product that uses this language because it makes me a sinner!"

Oracle has the word "ORACLE". "That's blasphemy! Only god can see the future! Oracles are impossible!"

Linux has a Penguin. "Penguins live on the north pole. It's cold there, I don't want to catch a flu."

KDE has a dragon. "Dragons do not exist! The lord didn't create them!"

Gnome has a footprint. "Feet are dirty. I don't want to have dirty software on my computer." (user continues to surf porn)

Sun had a logo of four S. "That's definitely a swastika, and it's two times the SS! That's not acceptable. Nobody should use that hardware or software because it carries the nazi spirit!"

Windows has a cross (or 4 squares): "A swastika. Definitely. Don't use it!"

Windows also has icons. "I will not click on any icon. Icons are prohibited for true believers."

PC keyboards have an "Alt" key. "I don't want to use this keyboard because I hate the association to the alcohol in Altbeer. Also I won't press Escape because it helps criminals to flee from jail. I also won't use FreeBSD jails because jails oppress innocent people."

PCs have a mouse. "I'm not going to touch that dirty rodent! They carry diseases and will infect me! I will die if I use it! Make it go away!"

I could go on with this for hours. :-)

FreeBSD doesn't fit your technical requirements? Don't use it. Feel uncomfortable with the logo? Ignore it. Billions of "adults" around the world are able to ignore things, even their own important matters, so why shouldn't that be possible with such a minor thing that doesn't matter?

However, I cannot get anyone to consider FreeBSD seriously when I make a proposal and a corporate officer visits the website and sees demon ears sticking out of a circle.


As I said, this tells a lot about corporate officers. Simply don't include the logo in your proposal. Instead, include the "clues" your target audience is expecting. Most "decision makers" react positively to green traffic lights, cost figures ($0), certificates, friendly big fonts, pie charts and arrows pointing upwards (representing growth). Use those instead. :-)

I also can't evangelize for it without losing followers on twitter, etc., and all because of the logo.


This tells a lot about your followers. Do you really need those? Aren't you maybe attributing value to them that doesn't really exist? (I don't know what business you are in and how much you actually depend on Twitter followers, so don't take this an offense.)

I can't imagine that such an unimportant thing like a stupid little logo should have such an impact.

Despite the insanity of it, people still judge things by what they can see.


Make sure they don't see the logo. Problem solved. (I have lots of FreeBSD installations and typically none of them shows the logo anywhere, not while booting, not in X, not in the documentation.)

And the first impression still counts to someone new to a product.


Does this stupidity still apply in higher levels of IT management or at the "technical front"? Where's the professionalism, knowledge and experience that customers and employees (rightfully) expect from those people? Maybe their wages should be used to re-educate them, it seems to be neccessary when what you describe is true and can be found in too many places.

Not everyone reads programming websites day in and day out and grasps the true wonder of FreeBSD.


What is a "programming website"? ;-)

However unfair this may be, some people still visit the website the ordinary way and see the logo and dismiss FreeBSD from further consideration.


I'm not sure if I should say it that way, but let me try it: Those people, lost to FreeBSD, are people well lost. See examples above. :-)

Reply Score: 9

allanregistos Member since:
2011-02-10

"Sadly, this is absolutely true.


And it says a lot about people.

I don't want to hurt anyone's religious feelings, but why can't self-proclaimed "adult people" simply ignore things that are so totally unimportant and don't matter?
"
You don't want to hurt religious people, yet your rants tried to impose your secular concepts about symbols and things to religious people?:


For the choice of an operating system I don't even consider the project or corporate logos a second. They don't matter. What has the software to offer, will it fit my requirements - those are the important questions.

Seeing a red sphere with two spikes any yelling: "I'm haunted! The devil will eat my soul! I don't want to be a sinner!" is exceptionally immature and has, in my opinion, nothing to do with (educated and true) belief.

Not true. I have known people(And these are employers) that in their business will remove or moved objects just to conform to their Feng Shui, it may not creep into technology, but when they saw a logo like that of FreeBSD's, I don't know.

What's next? Interpreting the four squares of the new MICROS~1 logo as a swastika and yelling: "This is nazi software! I don't want to hurt jews when I install it!" Is this example exxagerated, policitally incorrect and disgusting? I think so. But I wanted to use an actual extreme construction of something that does not apply to show how futile such discussions are.

Consider RELEASING a software to the public with a Satanic logo(Google provides you with a log of these symbols) and let us see.

Oracle has the word "ORACLE". "That's blasphemy! Only god can see the future! Oracles are impossible!"

Common, please use Oracle in the context of Oracle's business. Your comparisons fall short. FreeBSD uses an explicit image that can be interpreted as offensive to some religious folks. Do not go overboard and being an OA. When someone criticizes a logo, that means we have different opinions over things and thats normal, because the world does not revolve around your head and will not spin because your head says so.

Does this stupidity still apply in higher levels of IT management or at the "technical front"? Where's the professionalism, knowledge and experience that customers and employees (rightfully) expect from those people? Maybe their wages should be used to re-educate them, it seems to be neccessary when what you describe is true and can be found in too many places.

Some professionalism can be expressed in the used of Logo, AND I CAN'T see it with a demonic figure with fork in his hands. That reminds me of the battle between Gabriel and the Devil. Little google search reminds us the importance of logo, http://www.decodedscience.com/why-corporate-logos-matter-to-compani...
and the wikipedia tells us more. The fact is the world is not the U.S. and the U.S. is not the world. Some people think this way and can't get away to see that there are people that will going to disagree with them on certain subjects, and that because they live in a FIRST WORLD COUNTRY, they can dictate anyone on any subjects, be it religious, marriage, and moral values.

I'm not sure if I should say it that way, but let me try it: Those people, lost to FreeBSD, are people well lost. See examples above. :-)

There are better alternatives, if you can't market your product properly, even if how good you think it is, sorry. I have CentOS, enough already. Thanks.

Reply Score: 1

Doc Pain Member since:
2006-10-08

You don't want to hurt religious people, yet your rants tried to impose your secular concepts about symbols and things to religious people?:


Wrong. I don't impose anything, I'm just stating my very individual opinion and make suggestions. In how far those can be followed is a decision everyone has to make for himself. And as I also said, I do not understand why one would misunderstand a sphere with spike as something demonic and de-value the operating system project it's just a logo (of minor importance) for.

I have known people(And these are employers) that in their business will remove or moved objects just to conform to their Feng Shui,


I know about Feng Shui, there's nothing wrong with it.

it may not creep into technology, but when they saw a logo like that of FreeBSD's, I don't know.


I admit this is possible, but again: Judging a computer operating system by its logo simply doesn't sound right to me.

Consider RELEASING a software to the public with a Satanic logo(Google provides you with a log of these symbols) and let us see.


Well, "to the public" is a very broad target audience. All products typically have a specific target market. And for FreeBSD, those who use it are either fine with its logo or just ignore it.

It's mainly about interpretation. As long as nobody "feels offended" by a logo, the product properties or the corporation behind it don't really matter, even if it's a clerical-fascistoid megacorp that spies on people or does other bad things.

Common, please use Oracle in the context of Oracle's business. Your comparisons fall short.


No. I'm applying the same "logic" here, it's all about interpretation, assumption and attribution. And my examples are all wrong. Your statement also works in reverse: Use the FreeBSD logo in the context of the FreeBSD OS.

FreeBSD uses an explicit image that can be interpreted as offensive to some religious folks.


Yes, I don't deny that it can do this. But so can others, too.

Do not go overboard and being an OA.


What's an "OA"?

When someone criticizes a logo, that means we have different opinions over things and thats normal,


It's interesting that nobody had the phantasy that I've demonstrated in my "critic considerations" and carry it to the big corporations with their logos. It seems to be easier to discuss this topic on free and open software instead of "established business software", and FreeBSD has been a typical target over the years. OpenBSD (logo: a fish with spikes) and NetBSD (logo: a flag) hasn't been addressed in that way.

because the world does not revolve around your head and will not spin because your head says so.


It's interesting that the sun did revolve around the earth 500 years ago, and it was an accepted truth. :-)

Some professionalism can be expressed in the used of Logo, AND I CAN'T see it with a demonic figure with fork in his hands.


Isn't it possible to see the intended analogy of a daemon (a system serivce) with a friendly little guy in sneakers and with a pitchfork? Why is there anything demonic (usually in a christian interpretation) in it? Is it in a bull too? It has horns.

That reminds me of the battle between Gabriel and the Devil. Little google search reminds us the importance of logo, http://www.decodedscience.com/why-corporate-logos-matter-to-compani...
and the wikipedia tells us more.


Please read up on the "mark of the beast", its importance in performing trade, and see the analogy in smartphones and upcoming implants. It's possible and valid to draw that implication.

The fact is the world is not the U.S. and the U.S. is not the world. Some people think this way and can't get away to see that there are people that will going to disagree with them on certain subjects, and that because they live in a FIRST WORLD COUNTRY, they can dictate anyone on any subjects, be it religious, marriage, and moral values.


I fully agree.

There are better alternatives, if you can't market your product properly, even if how good you think it is, sorry. I have CentOS, enough already. Thanks.


Marketing has nothing to do with product quality. Instead, aggressive marketing can compensate poor product quality. If you have a bad product and throw money at marketing, people will still buy it even though they could have better alternatives for less money. This is what reality keeps teaching us for many years now.

On the other hand, if you have a good product, people will use it despite it has a strange logo or doesn't perform big marketing acts. FreeBSD for example has many users who value it, even though it's "for free".

And please consider something else:

The BSDL (FreeBSD license) allows using its source code without contribution or notification, changing it, turning it into closed source, and selling it, even develop own products. Just think how many routers,
managed switches, firewalls and NAS are out there, running FreeBSD, without anyone knowing it? And how comfortable are you with the fact that you probably have no way of finding it out?

Reply Score: 3

allanregistos Member since:
2011-02-10

"You don't want to hurt religious people, yet your rants tried to impose your secular concepts about symbols and things to religious people?:


Wrong. I don't impose anything, I'm just stating my very individual opinion and make suggestions. In how far those can be followed is a decision everyone has to make for himself. And as I also said, I do not understand why one would misunderstand a sphere with spike as something demonic and de-value the operating system project it's just a logo (of minor importance) for.
"Okay.

"I have known people(And these are employers) that in their business will remove or moved objects just to conform to their Feng Shui,

I know about Feng Shui, there's nothing wrong with it.
"For the curious, from a perspective of a Christian, I do not agree with Feng Shui, it is inconsistent with Christianity.

"it may not creep into technology, but when they saw a logo like that of FreeBSD's, I don't know.


I admit this is possible, but again: Judging a computer operating system by its logo simply doesn't sound right to me.
"
Sorry, I attribute the importance of logos in virtually all product made by man. I agree with you that FreeBSD will not be judged according to the logo. I only made a statement that I've felt their is something wrong with their logo, in this case, only the logo, not the FreeBSD people. I believe these people are highly talented, we can see it in the product. But I can't see it in the logo.

If it is true(I think it is) that they(FreeBSD) don't care much about the logo, then a change of the logo is fine for them. But I doubt this is the case, maybe it involves a lot of work. Maybe, there are also a lot of fanboys who will going to disagree of the change, not for technical reasons but for religious reasons as well, even though they do not belong to any religious sect.

"Consider RELEASING a software to the public with a Satanic logo(Google provides you with a log of these symbols) and let us see.


Well, "to the public" is a very broad target audience. All products typically have a specific target market. And for FreeBSD, those who use it are either fine with its logo or just ignore it.
"
Okay. But I consider FreeBSD a product made for the public to use. My point being is, you cannot just put a logo around your product without thinking of what your logo represents or tells about your product. And I've found the FreeBSD mascot disturbing. Well, its okay with you since you do not belong to a group that cares about symbols.

It's mainly about interpretation. As long as nobody "feels offended" by a logo, the product properties or the corporation behind it don't really matter, even if it's a clerical-fascistoid megacorp that spies on people or does other bad things.

"Common, please use Oracle in the context of Oracle's business. Your comparisons fall short.


No. I'm applying the same "logic" here, it's all about interpretation, assumption and attribution. And my examples are all wrong. Your statement also works in reverse: Use the FreeBSD logo in the context of the FreeBSD OS.
FreeBSD uses an explicit image that can be interpreted as offensive to some religious folks.


Yes, I don't deny that it can do this. But so can others, too.
"
Word Oracle. They can predict of what the future holds in terms of technology and create a product around it, and there's nothing wrong with it, in contrast to the Demon holding a fork.

"Do not go overboard and being an OA.


What's an "OA"?
" Sorry for the confusion. Its Over Acting.

"When someone criticizes a logo, that means we have different opinions over things and thats normal,


It's interesting that nobody had the phantasy that I've demonstrated in my "critic considerations" and carry it to the big corporations with their logos. It seems to be easier to discuss this topic on free and open software instead of "established business software", and FreeBSD has been a typical target over the years. OpenBSD (logo: a fish with spikes) and NetBSD (logo: a flag) hasn't been addressed in that way.
"Now you see that problem.

"because the world does not revolve around your head and will not spin because your head says so.


It's interesting that the sun did revolve around the earth 500 years ago, and it was an accepted truth. :-)
"
Actually what I am saying is sometimes what we consider true is not always true as you've stated about the sun. What you consider in your _culture_ to be the absolute truth is not an absolute truth elsewhere. In the FreeBSD circle, I agree that there is no such a thing as giving an importance to the logo, but this is not _always_ true outside of that circle. You have to accept that. Try to suggest a Logo change in one of their mailing list, and let us see the feedback.

"Some professionalism can be expressed in the used of Logo, AND I CAN'T see it with a demonic figure with fork in his hands.


Isn't it possible to see the intended analogy of a daemon (a system serivce) with a friendly little guy in sneakers and with a pitchfork? Why is there anything demonic (usually in a christian interpretation) in it? Is it in a bull too? It has horns.
"
What is a demon by the way?

"That reminds me of the battle between Gabriel and the Devil. Little google search reminds us the importance of logo, http://www.decodedscience.com/why-corporate-logos-matter-to-compani...
and the wikipedia tells us more.


Please read up on the "mark of the beast", its importance in performing trade, and see the analogy in smartphones and upcoming implants. It's possible and valid to draw that implication.
"
I have no time yet.

"The fact is the world is not the U.S. and the U.S. is not the world. Some people think this way and can't get away to see that there are people that will going to disagree with them on certain subjects, and that because they live in a FIRST WORLD COUNTRY, they can dictate anyone on any subjects, be it religious, marriage, and moral values.


I fully agree.

There are better alternatives, if you can't market your product properly, even if how good you think it is, sorry. I have CentOS, enough already. Thanks.


Marketing has nothing to do with product quality.
" I agree.
Instead, aggressive marketing can compensate poor product quality. If you have a bad product and throw money at marketing, people will still buy it even though they could have better alternatives for less money. This is what reality keeps teaching us for many years now.

It would be better to market a product with quality inside and out.

On the other hand, if you have a good product, people will use it despite it has a strange logo or doesn't perform big marketing acts. FreeBSD for example has many users who value it, even though it's "for free".

And please consider something else:

The BSDL (FreeBSD license) allows using its source code without contribution or notification, changing it, turning it into closed source, and selling it, even develop own products. Just think how many routers,
managed switches, firewalls and NAS are out there, running FreeBSD, without anyone knowing it? And how comfortable are you with the fact that you probably have no way of finding it out?

Then use GPL. I fail to see the connection.

Reply Score: 1

Doc Pain Member since:
2006-10-08

For the curious, from a perspective of a Christian, I do not agree with Feng Shui, it is inconsistent with Christianity.


But it doesn't have to be. The chrisitian religion is one among many.

I attribute the importance of logos in virtually all product made by man. I agree with you that FreeBSD will not be judged according to the logo. I only made a statement that I've felt their is something wrong with their logo, in this case, only the logo, not the FreeBSD people. I believe these people are highly talented, we can see it in the product. But I can't see it in the logo.


I assume that the logo is of such a low importance to others that they never really thought about changing it. M. K. McKusick came up with the idea many years ago and it has been kept that way. Some years ago, it has been changed to the more neutral "sphere with spikes" which itself isn't "anything". Some people attribute to it that it symbolizes a head with horns, others say it's some strange sex toy, and even others say that it's an orb with two cones on top, nothing more, nothing less. The logo itself is neutral, it's attribution and interpretation that apply a personal feeling and make it "non-neutral".

If it is true(I think it is) that they(FreeBSD) don't care much about the logo, then a change of the logo is fine for them.


Technically it should be possible, but as FreeBSD is community-driven, there needs to be a consensus on what to do. This isn't a "boss decision" in some corporate hierarchy.

But I doubt this is the case, maybe it involves a lot of work. Maybe, there are also a lot of fanboys who will going to disagree of the change, not for technical reasons but for religious reasons as well, even though they do not belong to any religious sect.


In the distant past, Christianity has been considered a sect too. In my opinion, religious belief is something so personal and individual that it shouldn't dictate business decisions. Of course people don't just judge with their brain (even though sometimes they should), but also with their heart or stomach. This is fully natural, as the heart "in between" the mind and the hands, so you shouldn't buy a product which you don't feel comfortable with. Whatever makes you uncomfortable, be it a logo, a business strategy, the appearance of the company's CEO in public, or the connections a corporation has with governments and secret services - that should be considered. Of course big companies won't give up their important contracts with spying agencies and oppressive regimes just to please a few potential customers (or should I say "users" because their users often are the products, not the customers)...

But I consider FreeBSD a product made for the public to use. My point being is, you cannot just put a logo around your product without thinking of what your logo represents or tells about your product.


Tells whom, that is significant. For example, the swastika is a highly-negatively perceived symbol since WW2, but there are cultures where this symbol is noting negative, or to be more precise, is a positive symbol.

Context matters a lot.

People who are not "picky-christian" will possibly not feel offended. :-)

And I've found the FreeBSD mascot disturbing. Well, its okay with you since you do not belong to a group that cares about symbols.


Oh, I care about symbols a lot, when they are significant and influence people. Symbols aren't just graphical images, it's also words, gestures, even whole cultures that represent things, concepts, or companies. But I know when it's not worth caring about a symbol and trying to see something in it that actually isn't even there.

Word Oracle. They can predict of what the future holds in terms of technology and create a product around it, and there's nothing wrong with it, in contrast to the Demon holding a fork.


Oh, really? I think now you're leaving the path of logic, education, truth and common sense.

Oracle cannot predict the future any more or less a normal person can. They can even be criticized of collecting data they don't have the right to obtain and use it in their calculations to make up figures about the future. They control future demands by vendor lock-in, they control people's expectations by advertising.

See the word "oracle" in its initial meaning: a divination. Even in christian mythology, oracles refer to blessings toward people who deceive a divine revelation of god. Do you really assume Oracle managers and shareholders are addressed by god in that way?

Actually what I am saying is sometimes what we consider true is not always true as you've stated about the sun. What you consider in your _culture_ to be the absolute truth is not an absolute truth elsewhere.


There is no absolute truth, except maybe logic which is independent from individual opinions, preferences or imaginations.

In the FreeBSD circle, I agree that there is no such a thing as giving an importance to the logo, but this is not _always_ true outside of that circle.


I'm not sure that that the logo is void of importance. It's simply that many people receive the "message of the logo" as a friendly little helper (I won't even say daemon or ghost or whatnot) that serves you by keeping your systems running. It's attributed positive aspects.

You have to accept that. Try to suggest a Logo change in one of their mailing list, and let us see the feedback.


This discussion has been held on the mailing lists many times, as the archives show.

What is a demon by the way?


Ha, now we're getting to the interesting questions!

First of all, spelling matters. It's not a demon, it's a daemon. A daemon is usually understood as a lower deity that serves you. They are usually associated with nature or its forces, being benevolent, understanding and helpful, a guide or a messenger.

The daemon has been chosen as a mascot because daemons are important system processes of any UNIX system. They are even called daemons. Such processes exist in other systems too, but they're named differently, for example services or jobs.

The negative attribution of possession is something Christianity's superiors created. There is even "logic" in doing so: Things can't simply be abolished, they need to be replaced and reinterpreted, and to make people avoid them, it has to be something negative. This is what we see here, I assume.

You can find out more technical details here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_(computing)

Regarding the BSD daemon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_Daemon

http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/daemon.html

It would be better to market a product with quality inside and out.


That would be the optimal solution that would make itself superfluous: A really good product doesn't need marketing, it will speak for itself. :-)

Regarding "hidden FreeBSD in products":

Then use GPL. I fail to see the connection.


That doesn't solve the problem that you could be using FreeBSD in your router or WLAN AP without knowing. That's a general problem of closed source products: You have no real way of finding out what's inside. Companies also steal open source code and put this in their products without following the rules of the GPL. The BSDL explicitely allows them to do this, that's why it's sometimes called a "rape me license".

Fact is that many parts of the BSDs (especially OpenBSD, but also FreeBSD) has made its way into other products, such as Mac OS X, storage products, firewalls and closed source server tools. The logo isn't shown anywhere, but people keep using it. In most cases, they don't even know.

Reply Score: 3

allanregistos Member since:
2011-02-10

In the distant past, Christianity has been considered a sect too. "That's correct.
In my opinion, religious belief is something so personal and individual that it shouldn't dictate business decisions. " You are absolutely wrong. Respecting competitors to your business and allowing them to thrive as well _may_ come from a religious person's personal beliefs, in the same way that loving your neighbor(a competitor in this case) is fundamental to his belief.
Of course people don't just judge with their brain(even though sometimes they should), but also with their heart or stomach. This is fully natural, as the heart "in between" the mind and the hands, so you shouldn't buy a product which you don't feel comfortable with. Whatever makes you uncomfortable, be it a logo, a business strategy, the appearance of the company's CEO in public, or the connections a corporation has with governments and secret services - that should be considered. Of course big companies won't give up their important contracts with spying agencies and oppressive regimes just to please a few potential customers (or should I say "users" because their users often are the products, not the customers)...
You touched on many subjects including religion which speaks and demands understanding in as much or more than a OS kernel. In this case, I made a specific statement that I am not comfortable with the logo. Period. FreeBSD is a good product especially it now supports ZFS, and FreeNAS being derived from it I will use in the future. It is not something about snooping or any of those subjects that requires time for me to respond to. Please make your argument stay on topic.

"But I consider FreeBSD a product made for the public to use. My point being is, you cannot just put a logo around your product without thinking of what your logo represents or tells about your product.


Tells whom, that is significant. For example, the swastika is a highly-negatively perceived symbol since WW2, but there are cultures where this symbol is noting negative, or to be more precise, is a positive symbol.
" Why use a swastika logo when everybody knows(even those same people who interpret it positively) as the symbol used by the Nazi? You are inviting trouble, making wasted arguments on defending, WHEN you are free to choose zillions of logos available. It doesn't make sense.

Context matters a lot.
People who are not "picky-christian" will possibly not feel offended. :-)
Yes, especially when we are talking about many subjects, including Christianity. Well, many non-Christians speak evil against Christians in an _OUT_ of context especially against the Bible. I've been in debates. There is no monopoly of knowledge as I said above about US/World/thing.

"And I've found the FreeBSD mascot disturbing. Well, its okay with you since you do not belong to a group that cares about symbols.


Oh, I care about symbols a lot,
"Fine for you.
when they are significant and influence people. Symbols aren't just graphical images, it's also words, gestures, even whole cultures that represent things, concepts, or companies. But I know when it's not worth caring about a symbol and trying to see something in it that actually isn't even there.
And you choose FreeBSD, and I choose all.

"Word Oracle. They can predict of what the future holds in terms of technology and create a product around it, and there's nothing wrong with it, in contrast to the Demon holding a fork.


Oh, really? I think now you're leaving the path of logic, education, truth and common sense.
"You know that there are research companies that predicts of what the future holds according to the recent trend of events, there is no divination or magic involve.

"Actually what I am saying is sometimes what we consider true is not always true as you've stated about the sun. What you consider in your _culture_ to be the absolute truth is not an absolute truth elsewhere.


There is no absolute truth,
" Self defeating nonsense. That statement alone claims an absolute truth that there is no absolute truth.

"In the FreeBSD circle, I agree that there is no such a thing as giving an importance to the logo, but this is not _always_ true outside of that circle.


I'm not sure that that the logo is void of importance. It's simply that many people receive the "message of the logo" as a friendly little helper (I won't even say daemon or ghost or whatnot) that serves you by keeping your systems running. It's attributed positive aspects.

You have to accept that. Try to suggest a Logo change in one of their mailing list, and let us see the feedback.


This discussion has been held on the mailing lists many times, as the archives show.
"
It speaks for itself the importance of the logo.

"What is a demon by the way?


Ha, now we're getting to the interesting questions!

First of all, spelling matters. It's not a demon, it's a daemon. A daemon is usually understood as a lower deity that serves you. They are usually associated with nature or its forces, being benevolent, understanding and helpful, a guide or a messenger.

The daemon has been chosen as a mascot because daemons are important system processes of any UNIX system. They are even called daemons. Such processes exist in other systems too, but they're named differently, for example services or jobs.

The negative attribution of possession is something Christianity's superiors created. There is even "logic" in doing so: Things can't simply be abolished, they need to be replaced and reinterpreted, and to make people avoid them, it has to be something negative. This is what we see here, I assume.

You can find out more technical details here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_(computing)

Regarding the BSD daemon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_Daemon

http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/daemon.html
"
Thank you for the resources.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon(classical_mythology)
We should learn more about Christianity's definition of wordly spirits.

"It would be better to market a product with quality inside and out.


That would be the optimal solution that would make itself superfluous: A really good product doesn't need marketing, it will speak for itself. :-)
" So we don't need to market anything and the use of logo or images must be important to anything else and not to operating systems especially FreeBSD. Really cool idea from you.

Reply Score: 1

zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Fact is that many parts of the BSDs (especially OpenBSD, but also FreeBSD) has made its way into other products, such as Mac OS X, storage products, firewalls and closed source server tools. The logo isn't shown anywhere, but people keep using it. In most cases, they don't even know.

Also NetBSD, notably in Apple access points and backup appliances (and some other examples... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetBSD#Examples_of_use )

Reply Score: 2

saso Member since:
2007-04-18

You express a sentiment that is best met with hard mockery: http://youtu.be/6WPvSo8AYdM?t=16s

Reply Score: 3

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Some professionalism can be expressed in the used of Logo, AND I CAN'T see it with a demonic figure with fork in his hands.


Professionalism would be to not judge the OS by it's logo/mascot but by it's technical merits and how suitable it is for your use case.

they can dictate anyone on any subjects, be it religious, marriage, and moral values.


Oh, you mean just like how you're trying to dictate to freebsd what logo they can use?

I have CentOS, enough already.


My condolences.

Edited 2014-01-22 20:25 UTC

Reply Score: 3

allanregistos Member since:
2011-02-10

"Some professionalism can be expressed in the used of Logo, AND I CAN'T see it with a demonic figure with fork in his hands.


Professionalism would be to not judge the OS by it's logo/mascot but by it's technical merits and how suitable it is for your use case.

they can dictate anyone on any subjects, be it religious, marriage, and moral values.


Oh, you mean just like how you're trying to dictate to freebsd what logo they can use?

I have CentOS, enough already.


My condolences.
"
A lot of enterprises uses Red Hat. Their condolences also.
Can you share me Soulbender, your FreeBSD setup? I am interested of what Linux can't do a FreeBSD install can do, so aside from ZFS, can you share something about your FreeBSD setup? Thanks.

Reply Score: 2

itanic Member since:
2008-08-03

I for one have no problem offending religious people. Faith is by definition a form of intellectual dishonesty, and to encourage it in any way is to embrace ignorance. Anyone with such fundamentally flawed logic is unlikely to contribute anything great to computing anyway, so it's no loss if something as trivial as a logo drives them away from a project.

Reply Score: 2

allanregistos Member since:
2011-02-10

I for one have no problem offending religious people. Faith is by definition a form of intellectual dishonesty, and to encourage it in any way is to embrace ignorance. Anyone with such fundamentally flawed logic is unlikely to contribute anything great to computing anyway, so it's no loss if something as trivial as a logo drives them away from a project.

Know the meaning of this.
Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase.(Martin Luther King Jr.)

Your faith definition fall short accordingly.

Reply Score: 2

itanic Member since:
2008-08-03

It's more like taking the first step when there's no reason to think there might be any staircase, and with much greater likelihood the edge of a cliff. Except instead of just falling to your death, you drag the rest of humanity down a bit.

Analogies are pointless. The dictionary definition of faith is clear, and it's mutually exclusive with logic.

Reply Score: 1

allanregistos Member since:
2011-02-10

It's more like taking the first step when there's no reason to think there might be any staircase, and with much greater likelihood the edge of a cliff. Except instead of just falling to your death, you drag the rest of humanity down a bit.

Analogies are pointless. The dictionary definition of faith is clear, and it's mutually exclusive with logic.


It is pointless to dictate one Dictionary's definition of the word when it doesn't fit into the context where you want to put it.

The analogy doesn't work because you attempt to force down in my throat your definition of faith, which is more pointless that you say it is. That is your right, right? And I have also the right to reject your notion of faith that is based from flawed definition of the dictionary. And I don't mean the definition of the dictionary is wrong, is that the thing cannot be described with just one sentence. You need to eat a lot to know more. As I said in my previous posts, there is no monopoly of knowledge, if you think so, you have the problem.

Reply Score: 2

kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

"I for one have no problem offending religious people. Faith is by definition a form of intellectual dishonesty, and to encourage it in any way is to embrace ignorance. Anyone with such fundamentally flawed logic is unlikely to contribute anything great to computing anyway, so it's no loss if something as trivial as a logo drives them away from a project.

Know the meaning of this.
Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase.(Martin Luther King Jr.)

Your faith definition fall short accordingly.
"

No, that quote proves that definition (I'd say it was more of a description).

Reply Score: 2

allanregistos Member since:
2011-02-10

I for one have no problem offending religious people. Faith is by definition a form of intellectual dishonesty, and to encourage it in any way is to embrace ignorance. Anyone with such fundamentally flawed logic is unlikely to contribute anything great to computing anyway, so it's no loss if something as trivial as a logo drives them away from a project.

Please post your anti-religious sentiments somewhere on proper forum give me the link and we will talk there. Let us learn to live with one another, religious or non-religious, and when you get offended because someone is not comfortable with a mascot or a logo of an OS that you loved?

Reply Score: 2

zima Member since:
2005-07-06

You are the one who brought religious BS into this thread, into this forum.

BTW, I am offended by your avatar.

Reply Score: 2

tidux Member since:
2011-08-13

> What's next? Interpreting the four squares of the new MICROS~1 logo as a swastika and yelling: "This is nazi software! I don't want to hurt jews when I install it!"

Well, they did adopt that logo when their fortunes were tied to IBM, and IBM sold primitive computers to Hitler, so that's not entirely wrong...

Reply Score: 2

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Thumbs up. Best post in this thread.

Reply Score: 2

Drumhellar Member since:
2005-07-12

Linux has a Penguin. "Penguins live on the north pole. It's cold there, I don't want to catch a flu."


Pepsi hurts my nostrils.

Also, you owe me a new keyboard.

Edited 2014-01-22 20:59 UTC

Reply Score: 4

zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Linux has a Penguin. "Penguins live on the north pole. It's cold there, I don't want to catch a flu."

Actually, there are no penguins on the northern hemisphere... ;) (well, except in zoos of course)

Reply Score: 2

UltraZelda64 Member since:
2006-12-05

... :|

WTF?

Reply Score: 2

xfce_fanboy Member since:
2013-04-09

You can always go with PC-BSD instead. At least their logo is packed with hot, flamey goodness. And it's still FreeBSD at its core.

Reply Score: 1

allanregistos Member since:
2011-02-10

You can always go with PC-BSD instead. At least their logo is packed with hot, flamey goodness. And it's still FreeBSD at its core.


Good suggestion.

Reply Score: 1

quackalist Member since:
2007-08-27

WTF, the flames of Hell, we're all dammed.

Reply Score: 3

Gone fishing Member since:
2006-02-22

The logo is a Joke (quite funny in a geeky way) UNIX has Daemon's (background processes). BSDs, FreeBSD has daemons hence the demon logo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_Daemon

FreeBSD is very cool, if the daemon logo is putting you off you are missing out.

Reply Score: 3

allanregistos Member since:
2011-02-10

The logo is a Joke (quite funny in a geeky way) UNIX has Daemon's (background processes). BSDs, FreeBSD has daemons hence the demon logo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_Daemon

FreeBSD is very cool, if the daemon logo is putting you off you are missing out.

Haven't you read? I am just not comfortable with the logo, period. The part that I am not installing it is not serious, as I have stated in the second post.

Reply Score: 0

We're really discussing this?
by abraxas on Thu 23rd Jan 2014 03:34 UTC
abraxas
Member since:
2005-07-07

Jesus I'm glad I'm an atheist!

Reply Score: 3

tylerdurden Member since:
2009-03-17

Dude, enough. You got quite the great mileage out of that shitty trolling and managed to completely derail this thread original purpose; to discuss FreeBSD 10.0 release.

Now, will you kindly go your merry way and pollute elsewhere? Thanks.

Reply Score: 4

allanregistos Member since:
2011-02-10

Dude, enough.
Okay.

You got quite the great mileage out of that shitty trolling


Edited 2014-01-24 00:27 UTC

Reply Score: 2