Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 7th Apr 2014 22:17 UTC
Microsoft

It looks like the Internet of Things could be the next big computing battleground, and Microsoft seems willing to sacrifice a few battles in order to win that war. Facebook is chasing virtual reality; Google wants home automation, smartwatches, and internet-connected glasses. More than 200 billion devices are likely to be connected to the internet by 2020, a huge example of the way the technology industry will shift and new battles will emerge. Satya Nadella believes the future isn't Windows desktops, Windows tablets, and Windows Phones. It's not Windows everywhere, it's Microsoft everywhere, offering software and services for every device - including an entire world of interconnected devices that have yet to be built.

The speed with which is doing this u-turn makes it quite clear that people within the company wanted to do this for a long, long time (otherwise it could not have been done this quickly), which implies that Ballmer may have simply held these changes back.

The elephant in the room here is that while people talk about Microsoft as if the company is down and out, it's still hugely profitable and has consistently been posting great financial results. It's just that Microsoft's money isn't coming from sexy products like smartphones and tablets, but from enterprise and backend stuff - stuff the technology press either can't write about, doesn't understand, or both. It's very similar to all those articles claiming Apple no longer innovates and disrupts, even though the company sent shockwaves through the microprocessor world.

In any case, it seems like Microsoft finally found the right direction in this new world.

Order by: Score:
Yup
by WorknMan on Mon 7th Apr 2014 22:27 UTC
WorknMan
Member since:
2005-11-13

With the whole universal app thing and the possibility of being able to build and run apps that run on desktops, tablets, phones, and console, I haven't been this excited about windows since Windows 95 ;) As it is, if you're using Windows on the desktop and Android or iOS on phones/tablets (as many of us are), you're pretty much stuck with web apps and browser extensions for cross-device compatibility.

That doesn't mean you have to run the EXACT same UI on desktop and tablet. For example:

if (mouse_detected == ture) {
draw_toolbar()
enable_menus()
etc, etc.
}

Even modern apps look different, depending on whether you're running them on tablet or phone.

Edited 2014-04-07 22:31 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE: Yup
by dpJudas on Tue 8th Apr 2014 03:14 UTC in reply to "Yup"
dpJudas Member since:
2009-12-10

if (mouse_detected == ture) {
draw_toolbar()
enable_menus()
etc, etc.
}

Even modern apps look different, depending on whether you're running them on tablet or phone.

Classical developer abstraction thinking. It all seems so simple until you realize that a keyboard + mouse driven application works best with a completely different UI than fat sausage fingers with on-screen keyboard and 9" of screen area.

Take a look at the Cocoa vs Cocoa Touch API's and ask yourself this one simple question: why did Apple create a complete new set of Views and Controls for mobile when both API's at the higher abstraction level are nearly identical?

Once you find the answer you will understand why universal user interfaces will never work. Metro is probably one of the best examples of the type of problems you run into when you try.

Reply Score: 7

RE[2]: Yup
by WorknMan on Tue 8th Apr 2014 04:04 UTC in reply to "RE: Yup"
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

That's fine, you can have a different UI if you need to, but at least you can keep 80-90% of the underlying code the same across all platforms. No need to rewrite the entire app.

And anybody who says 'web apps' is getting stabbed in the eye ;) Why have we done all this work over the course of a few decades to build nice, stable operating systems, only to end up running all of our apps in a f**king web browser?

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Yup
by kwan_e on Tue 8th Apr 2014 05:01 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Yup"
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

Why have we done all this work over the course of a few decades to build nice, stable operating systems, only to end up running all of our apps in a f**king web browser?


Why have we done all this work to make every computer self contained only to end up going back to "cloud"?

Reply Score: 8

RE[2]: Yup
by The123king on Tue 8th Apr 2014 10:52 UTC in reply to "RE: Yup"
The123king Member since:
2009-05-28

And that's why MS created Metro. It's just internal politics turned something that could have been revolutionary into something everyone hates. Had they released Windows RT without the classic desktop and Windows 8 with Metro as an optional download, Windows 8 wouldn't have been such a flop.

Reply Score: 3

Microsoft's money is from lawsuits
by ozonehole on Tue 8th Apr 2014 00:50 UTC
ozonehole
Member since:
2006-01-07

The elephant in the room here is that while people talk about Microsoft as if the company is down and out, it's still hugely profitable and has consistently been posting great financial results. It's just that Microsoft's money isn't coming from sexy products like smartphones and tablets

Increasingly, Microsoft's money comes lawsuits. The huge amount they rake in by threatening Android vendors is classic. They also fund the highly misnamed Intellectual Ventures which is a blatant patent-troll.

On the technological front, I just recently had firsthand experience trying to install Linux on a Windows-8 laptop with UEFI Secure Boot. It was damn near impossible, as you couldn't boot to BIOS without first loading Windows. This is Microsoft's wet dream - force laptop makers to manufacture machines that can only run Windows.

I've been forced to buy Windows in the past (because it came pre-installed) but I will no longer do so. Windows pre-installed is in my opinion a virus. No more compromises - I'm going to vote with my wallet.

Fortunately, there are still a few ways to escape Microsoft's clutches. I just bought a desktop with no OS preinstalled - I put Debian on it without issues. When I decide that I need a new laptop, it will probably be a Chromebook.

My old 2G cell phone is Nokia, but now that Microsoft owns that company, you can rest assured that Nokia is scratched off my list when I get a replacement phone. I won't buy any Android phone if the manufacturer is paying Microsoft for a "license."

Microsoft - the company that ruined computing. I probably won't live long enough to experience the day when I can dance on Microsoft's grave, but it's nice to dream about it.

Edited 2014-04-08 00:54 UTC

Reply Score: 5

drstorm Member since:
2009-04-24

dafuq man?

Reply Score: 2

UltraZelda64 Member since:
2006-12-05

On the technological front, I just recently had firsthand experience trying to install Linux on a Windows-8 laptop with UEFI Secure Boot. It was damn near impossible, as you couldn't boot to BIOS without first loading Windows. This is Microsoft's wet dream - force laptop makers to manufacture machines that can only run Windows.

Eh... I don't know. Yes and no. I bought a Lenovo laptop which came with Windows 8 and "Secure" Bullshit enabled, and before I attempted to install Linux I just went into the BIOS/UEFI and disabled a few things--specifically the atrocity I just mentioned, some Windows 8 presets option and a few other things. I also had the option to use (exclusively or by preference) the BIOS compatibility mode instead of UEFI during boot, but I didn't. Installed openSUSE with no trouble at all, running it now with far fewer problems than Windows 8.1 (always crashes on boot since updating).

So... as long as you're using a standard Intel/x86-based machine, you should be able to install other operating systems. For now, at least... they will probably try to lock out all competition with no way whatsoever to put anything but their own shit on a system eventually, just like they do with ARM-based machines. So... look in the BIOS and see if there's a setting; if you can't find it, look more and/or call the OEM. If you still are unable to do it, and/or they say it is not allowed, send it back and tell them where to stick it.

Reply Score: 6

TechGeek Member since:
2006-01-14

The uEFI thing is still a crap shoot. I have systems that will boot like a normal system, but you can't ever really get out of the uEFI bios and into a regular bios.

Reply Score: 5

UltraZelda64 Member since:
2006-12-05

Does it really even matter which mode you choose? I mean, doesn't every major modern OS support UEFI anyway?

I did some reading a while back and honestly couldn't figure out why, assuming a modern OS, you would absolutely *need* one or the other. As long as it boots, right? Only thing I can think of is some compatibility issues that I'm not aware of, or the desire to use the traditional MBR partition table (though this is probably possible with UEFI too, I just haven't tried because I wanted to give the new partition table a spin).

On the other hand, I still don't really see the point in UEFI, and I can't find absolutely anything it can do that BIOS couldn't. Even the BIOS could boot from GPT if you wanted to, assuming your OS was willing (ie. everything but Windows), so it's not like that's really an advantage either.

Reply Score: 2

Drumhellar Member since:
2005-07-12

Well, with the traditional BIOS, there are fairly tight space limitations for the so-called option ROMS (Which are what allow you to boot from your nice SCSI adapter, or from a network device, among other things) - the traditional BIOS has hard limit of 128k..

UEFI also allows for a basic level of driver support to be included on the card, in a manner that is not dependent on CPU architecture - an add-in card can provide, say, storage or graphics support in a more capable fashion than what the old BIOS allows, by embedding the driver into firmware on the expansion card - and this embedded driver should work regardless of the CPU architecture.

It's vastly better than the old BIOS, but, it is also something that, by nature, isn't exposed to the user unless something is wrong. Think of all the BIOS hacks needed to allow booting from CD-ROM (Emulated in a number of different ways, including floppy emulation), from USB (Emulates an IDE device), to use a USB keyboard or mouse (It has to be emulated as traditional PS2 devices rather than just generic HID).

UEFI provides more generic interfaces for these. Of course, the worst part of UEFI these days is really the BIOS emulation involved, which unless you can turn it off completely, still mucks things up.

Reply Score: 6

puenktchen Member since:
2007-07-27

UEFI is your new BIOS, get used to it. There is no "regular BIOS" left. Everybody outside the Wintel-Universe (Sun SPARC, IBM Power, Apple has used something similar to UEF (Open Firmware, EFI) since the 1990s. And the MBR is dead too - finally more than 4 boot partitions!

PS: didn't see the other far better comments :/

Edited 2014-04-08 07:11 UTC

Reply Score: 2

somebody Member since:
2005-07-07

you probably mean things like Secure Boot and such.

UEFI it self was supported by linux long before it was on windows. IBM X-series (their linux server series) shipped with UEFI long ago and there never was any problem.

Reply Score: 5

Hans Otten Member since:
2009-12-24


Increasingly, Microsoft's money comes lawsuits. When I decide that I need a new laptop, it will probably be a Chromebook.


Where do you base your bold statement "Increasingly, Microsoft's money comes lawsuits." on?
Micorosft makes its large income (a lot) from selling licenses for software (Backoffice products like Windows server and a lot lot more of mission critical products, Microsoft Office, Microsoft Windows).

And yes, they are not the only company getting income from licensing their IP. All IT companies do, just have a look at teh Apple versus Samsung case. Whatever our opinion on IP is, it is done by all IT vendors, also Google, Apple, and a long long list ..

Getting a Chromebook is trading in one devil in for another evil: Google.

So get off your soapbox shouting religious opinions. Be realistic: Microsoft, Apple, Google, Oracle, Sony and all these companies are alike and have the same business practices. As a consumer I just use the most capable and affordable products and have no love or hate for any of them, and just a sane distrust for companies that make huge profits.

Reply Score: 1

bassbeast Member since:
2007-11-11

And the difference between UEFI Secureboot and a Chromebook is...you can actually turn off Secureboot! Not to mention NTLoader has supported multiple OSes at least since Win2K, maybe NT 4 but its been too long for me to remember. I find it quite ironic how many will whine about having to switch a single UEFI setting to disable Secureboot while not saying a peep about Google locking down bog standard laptops worse than cellphones.

As for TFA this is something many of us have been begging for for years, that instead of trying to jam mini desktops onto everything (or in the case of Metro trying to jam a cellphone UI onto everything) that they would instead focus on a "it just works" mantra so that the most important stuff, the data, stays the same no matter the UI and form factor.

I think we can now safely say that guys like me were correct, it WAS Ballmer putting the brakes on the company by acting like it was still the early 90s. Its just a shame they had to waste years and billions of dollars to figure that out.

Reply Score: 3

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Then you wake up and realize that every one of these decisions was made while Ballmer was CEO.

Low cost/free Windows was a decision made under Ballmer as rumors had been circulating for months.

Universal apps and API convergence was started under Ballmer (unless WP8.1 was developed in the month or so Satya's been CEO.

Office for iPad was undoubtedly developed while Ballmer was CEO.

The decision to open source .NET was made THREE YEARS AGO.

The fact that people jump for joy at this because they're ignorant to Ballmer's hand in this is cute, and indicative of the perception problem he faced.

Satay is great and I'm sure he'll be a fine CEO, but none of this was his doing (besides obviously playing a part in the decision making as part of the SLT, but still the buck stopped with Ballmer)

This is just Microsoft arriving at the destination that their very long roadmap depicted, people like me saw this coming. Other people call this a new Microsoft.

If you've been watching them open source project after project, SDK after SDK and integrating with open source tooling none of the .NET stuff surprises you.

If you worked with WinRT, saw WP8.0s start on convergence then none of the universal app stuff surprises you. Its just better tooling on existing concepts (PCLs) with a more shared API surface.

If you read Microsoft's developer documentation you'd see that they've been talking about adapting their UI to the form factor with adaptive layouts. This is just more formal guidance and tooling.

This should surprise no one.

Reply Score: 2

Microsoft moves are not great.
by oiaohm on Tue 8th Apr 2014 01:55 UTC
oiaohm
Member since:
2009-05-30

Thom Holwerda reason why Microsoft is seen more as down and out is the way the world is acting.

Just because Microsoft is still profitable now question is how far into the future.

Like everything under a 9 inch screen and under 250 dollars USD Microsoft has given up making any OS income from. Microsoft is not like Google with Android where Google shares its OS kernel source with the hardware developers so does not have to spend as much. Microsoft requires income to maintain and secure Windows.

How long before a 250 dollar computer will do most everyone needs.

Microsoft everywhere is a statement by Microsoft they have lost one battle and are trying to re-get footing.

Microsoft past objective was Windows everywhere with anything non Windows to have either a zero Microsoft experience or a bad experience like OS X MS office with missing features.

Microsoft has lost the OS dominance war. Microsoft is not the only one to lose this. sybmian OS biting dust as well.

Windows XP migration is completely not going to Microsoft plan.

The foundations are cracking under Microsoft feet the question is bad are they going to fail.

The upcoming x.org release for Linux has the next step in the migration to Wayland. Xwayland merged. Add in systemd logind changes. We are at long last looking at possibility of a secure Linux desktop. In fact scary secure desktop. Each user with private temp and swapspace. logind brings tracking by and limiting by cgroup on top of user id.

End of year are the Xwayland mainlined. Hopefully we will have Nvidia and ATI wayland drivers by then.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Microsoft moves are not great.
by shmerl on Tue 8th Apr 2014 03:39 UTC in reply to "Microsoft moves are not great."
shmerl Member since:
2010-06-08

Add to that the latest push for OpenGL by Valve and their Steam Machines and SteamOS, which threaten to undermine long time domination of Direct3D and disrupt established console market (which includes Xbox). MS is really being attacked on all fronts now.

Edited 2014-04-08 03:42 UTC

Reply Score: 6

moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

MS is really being attacked on all fronts now.


Only when the said AAA games aren't available in XBox ONE or Windows.

Reply Score: 3

shmerl Member since:
2010-06-08

Not really. There is no point in exclusivity, it's a stupid thing. If developers can target cross platform - it's better for everyone. Let the best platform win users on merit, not on using lock-in and exclusivity tactics. That's the whole shift which is happening right now. Windows is falling behind from being THE gaming desktop OS. And it's a lost battle for MS to keep it as such. And it it will benefit desktop Linux overall and will be another milestone in reducing global Windows domination.

Regarding consoles - time will tell. It's too early to say how this will develop, but Steam Machines is a serious contender which has benefits that others like Xbox and PS can't offer (openness of the platform, free development tools, no artificial limits on performance with upgrades only once in N years and etc.). So even if it won't destroy them, it can take a huge chunk of the market from them, and fast.

Edited 2014-04-08 15:39 UTC

Reply Score: 6

moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

I used to think like that 20 years ago, then I got an inside view of the gaming industry.

Reply Score: 3

shmerl Member since:
2010-06-08

Gaming industry is changing, and fast.

Reply Score: 1

ilovebeer Member since:
2011-08-08

Just because Microsoft is still profitable now question is how far into the future.

Microsoft has massive government and military contracts that will keep the cash pouring in for a long long time.

Microsoft has lost the OS dominance war.

On mobile perhaps, but mobile is only one piece of a bigger picture and they're doing fine everywhere else.

The foundations are cracking under Microsoft feet the question is bad are they going to fail.

Certain people make this claim year-in year-out but it never comes true - A lot like those who swear this will be `the year of the linux desktop`. All the while Microsoft continues to be profitable posting good financials. So, what alternate reality do you live in where this is true because that certainly isn't the case in this one.

The upcoming x.org release for Linux has the next step in the migration to Wayland. Xwayland merged. Add in systemd logind changes. We are at long last looking at possibility of a secure Linux desktop.

Assuming you aren't one of those kooks that thinks `the desktop is dead`, you don't actually believe this new magical linux using wayland will finally be a threat to windows do you?

End of year are the Xwayland mainlined. Hopefully we will have Nvidia and ATI wayland drivers by then.

What exactly do you think the future looks like for the linux desktop?

Reply Score: 2

shmerl Member since:
2010-06-08

MS lost it on the server as well. Desktop is largely dominated by Windows of course, but even that already starts to change.

Linux desktop just made a serious breakthrough in the recent year - gaming companies started paying attention and making releases for Linux, as well as most major digital distributors are shipping (or going to) Linux games. This will snowball and boost Linux desktop adoption. Wayland is important here because it's a serious improvement which is long overdue. I'm waiting for more Wayland on mobile as well though. Android needs more competition. Those who didn't notice all recent milestone developments just don't pay attention.

Edited 2014-04-08 05:19 UTC

Reply Score: 3

ilovebeer Member since:
2011-08-08

MS lost it on the server as well.

Microsoft has a massive presence in the server world.

Desktop is largely dominated by Windows of course, but even that already starts to change.

Where is this change happening? I don't see anyone jumping ship from Microsoft to go to linux in any mention-worthy numbers. Microsoft absolutely dominates the desktop, as it has for many many years.

Linux desktop just made a serious breakthrough in the recent year - gaming companies started paying attention and making releases for Linux, as well as most major digital distributors are shipping (or going to) Linux games. This will snowball and boost Linux desktop adoption. Wayland is important here because it's a serious improvement which is long overdue. I'm waiting for more Wayland on mobile as well though. Android needs more competition. Those who didn't notice all recent milestone developments just don't pay attention.

I'm not willing to call the recent movements as a "serious breakthrough". Before I can put that label on it, I need more proof that it's actually going to happen and we get something tangible rather than the typical false hopes and press releases never followed by anything substantial.

Even if linux gaming does get better, and even if the linux desktop becomes more than a punchline - and those are major ifs - linux would still have a slow, long, painful, and expensive mountain to climb to ever become any real competition for Windows on the desktop. I think you're grossly overestimating the growth linux could experience even in the best case scenario.

I couldn't care less about announcements. People say one thing Monday and something else by Tuesday. Fluff might work on some people but I need more proof than that. You should want more than words as proof too, especially considering how horrible the linux desktop & gaming trackrecord is.

Reply Score: 3

moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

You should want more than words as proof too, especially considering how horrible the linux desktop & gaming trackrecord is.


I was there between 1994 and 2002.

Then I realized OS are just a tool and I value productivity above tool religion. Not to mention all corporations are alike anyway.

Having spend some time connected to the games industry also helped to open my eyes to what really matters.

Reply Score: 3

shmerl Member since:
2010-06-08

"Gaming industry" is too undescriptive of a term without context. It depends whom your worked with. Experience can vary greatly. Especially with crowdfunded projects and self published studios which don't rely on legacy publishers things are changing and improving a lot these days and a lot of stupidity like DRM is fading away.

Now even bigger studios are starting to catch up on Linux releases. I think it was going there slowly, but Valve really boosted the issue. Their main achievement (together with Humble Bundle) is changing the mentality of "who cares about gaming on Linux, there is no money in it" to "it looks interesting and we can make money there".

Edited 2014-04-08 16:17 UTC

Reply Score: 1

zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Having spend some time connected to the games industry also helped to open my eyes to what really matters.

Not games?... ;(

Reply Score: 2

shmerl Member since:
2010-06-08

Microsoft has a massive presence in the server world.

Still a minority which can't compete with other OSes globally. So they lost it there, and never managed to come even close to their desktop domination.

I couldn't care less about announcements.


Those aren't announcements. Companies which before didn't care or weren't interested are developing games for Linux now. It is a milestone, whether you like it or not. And it will deal a serious blow to Windows market share going forward. MS fears that, which shows that they are well aware of these dynamics. That's why they rush to open their gaming toolkits and etc. But that won't help them to reverse the tide.

Edited 2014-04-08 15:50 UTC

Reply Score: 4

ilovebeer Member since:
2011-08-08

"Microsoft has a massive presence in the server world.

Still a minority which can't compete with other OSes globally. So they lost it there, and never managed to come even close to their desktop domination.
" [/q]53% of the total server hardware sold in 2013 is running Windows. The next runner up is Linux at 28%. Maybe you can explain how exactly you sell the most servers and nearly twice as much as the runner up, but are somehow the minority and unable to compete. Or, maybe you didn't know the facts to begin with. As far as Microsofts server presence not coming close to their desktop presence... Who cares? That's apples & oranges.

"I couldn't care less about announcements.


Those aren't announcements. Companies which before didn't care or weren't interested are developing games for Linux now. It is a milestone, whether you like it or not. And it will deal a serious blow to Windows market share going forward. MS fears that, which shows that they are well aware of these dynamics. That's why they rush to open their gaming toolkits and etc. But that won't help them to reverse the tide.
" [/q]
It's a milestone that more companies are showing interest in Linux gaming, but only as it pertains to its previous nearly non-existent state. To claim it's going to "deal a serious blow to Windows market share" is laughable to say the least. Linux gaming is no more a threat to Windows gaming than the Linux desktop is to the Windows desktop. It's hard to take people seriously who have fooled themselves into thinking otherwise.

Who is the sucker here? The guy who has convinced himself that Linux gaming is on the verge of success of biblical proportions. Or, the guy who wants to see real tangible proof before considering such outlandish claims?

Reply Score: 2

moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

MS lost it on the server as well.


Really? Better check the server room of many of our customers.

The majority of our enterprise projects are always a mix of UNIX/Windows.

Reply Score: 3

delta0.delta0 Member since:
2010-06-01

The Internet is controlled by Linux, every major website you and I visit runs on Linux:

Amazon,Google,Yahoo,ebay,facebook,wikipedia,linkedin,twitter,blogspot, wordpress,engadget,theverge, osnews ... Which of them runs windows ? I bet Skype runs on Linux still.

Then financial:

FTSE,NYSE... all of it runs on Linux..

Air Traffic Control:

Germany,UK,US (FAA) all run on Linux (probably the majority of air traffic control is managed by Linux servers now)

NASA:
Most of it is on Linux, ISS has moved all of its laptops to Linux.

DNS:
All DNS Root Domains either Run on Linux or Unix.

Travel companies:
Expedia,hotels.com,Kuoni,lastminute.com all Linux

Practically everything mission critical has shifted across to Linux - where is windows ?

I don't need to provide anecdotal evidence, or provide un-named enterprises, I can point to real world multi-billion dollar companies whose whole infrastructure runs on Linux. This is why spreading misinformation is a fools game, especially when the most important mission critical systems in operation all run on Linux.

About the only thing I have seen windows being used for is AD and Exchange, even this is declining as more businesses shift to mac book pros and to the "cloud" - who cares about AD ?

Reply Score: 2

moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

Don't mistake UNIX and GNU/Linux. Many of the said systems are running on proper UNIX systems still.

Many of your examples aren't pure UNIX, they always have a mix of Windows servers.

When one does Fortune 500 consulting, there are lots of things one gets to know over such companies.

Reply Score: 3

delta0.delta0 Member since:
2010-06-01

Don't mistake UNIX and GNU/Linux. Many of the said systems are running on proper UNIX systems still.


Why Mention this? both are still not windows ...

http://www.redhat.com/10yearsofrhel/events/0406b.html --> FAA redhat Linux

http://www.novell.com/success/dfs.html -> DFS Novell / Suse linux

http://www.pcworld.com/article/238068/how_linux_mastered_wall_stree... ->NYSE Linux

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/the-london-stock-exchange-mov... --> LSE Linux.

Many of your examples aren't pure UNIX, they always have a mix of Windows servers.


You are right they are not pure Unix, they are all Linux...

Pure Unix is a dying breed. HP-UX, AIX, Sun Solaris and BSDs ... RIP Sun, HP UX dying and merged into Linux, AIX most of it merged into Linux (IBM massive supporter of Linux) ...

Linux = Unix (Unix has been assigned to Linux), frankly they are interchangeable nowadays.

Why would any of these sites have Windows servers sitting in the background what possible use is Windows servers to Facebook or to Amazon or to Google or to any of the other sites I mentioned ? What magic can windows servers do that Linux cant ?

Only reason to have windows servers is for back office stuff like AD and Exchange and even then that is changing due to the "cloud" and stuff like tablets, phones, Apple mac book pros and Linux..

I haven't seen a single Internet based start up here build their infrastructure around Windows Servers, why would they ? Everything I see here Server wise is Linux.

Then there is all of the web technologies :

redis, mongodb, node.js, grails, Java, ror, Python, puppet, rabbitmq, zeromq, Jenkins/Hudson, nginx, and the list goes on, the different deployment and container technologies all of this stuff runs better or only on Linux properly.. Amazons AWS and Elastic computing all of that was developed on Linux first..

Face it Windows has lost the server war it lost it a long time ago and you can tell that quite clearly by all of the technology that primarily resides and is built for Linux infrastructure, windows may get support but its an afterthought..

Edited 2014-04-08 12:55 UTC

Reply Score: 2

moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

Oh, if I wasn't bound by NDAs.

Reply Score: 2

delta0.delta0 Member since:
2010-06-01

Oh, if I wasn't bound by NDAs.


You would be able to speak of this magical world where windows was secretly used by all of the major websites, because without the magic sauce that is windows all of these sites would crash and burn !

Secretly Google runs its whole search engine infrastructure on windows and Amazon doesn't use Linux, but actually runs windows and hyper-v and and facebook, yeah all windows..

London Stock Exchange didn't switch away from Windows after tradelect crashed and burned - it bought Millenium exchange to cover up the fact that actually they are using the new windows secret sauce server edition, its super secret and its sauce contains unicorn horn and fairy dust, in fact its just super saucy ! ... Its so magical that the data centre actually flies and all of the transactions are done by fairies riding on unicorns at the speed of light squared. Microsoft designed a new protocol for the data transfer its so fast its FART - Flatulence Squared is going to be the new buzz word after "big data" and "cloud computing"

...

Reply Score: 5

shmerl Member since:
2010-06-08

Don't mistake UNIX and GNU/Linux. Many of the said systems are running on proper UNIX systems still.


The point is, Windows is nowhere a dominant player on server market. Absolutely not comparable with their desktop near monopoly which they enjoyed for many years.

Edited 2014-04-08 16:07 UTC

Reply Score: 0

delta0.delta0 Member since:
2010-06-01

Microsoft has massive government and military contracts that will keep the cash pouring in for a long long time.


I think you will find most Governments are pulling away from Microsoft, especially after recent NSA spying scandals and they are migrating most of their systems to Linux. Its been ongoing for some time, French Police run Linux, Germany whole regions have switched to Linux, Brazil all Linux, China all Linux..

The list goes on, you may not see it or believe it, but it is happening. I don't really care tbh its inevitable, Microsoft can scream / shout jump up and done, throw chairs at walls, hire thousands of shills / advertising companies to spread misinformation, none of this will change a damn thing.

Reply Score: 2

Slambert666 Member since:
2008-10-30

I think you will find most Governments are pulling away from Microsoft, especially after recent NSA spying scandals and they are migrating most of their systems to Linux.


Citation needed...

I have not heard of a single (not a single) government that is moving to Linux as a result of NSA spying.
I think you are just making s..t up and lying through your teeth.

Reply Score: 3

oiaohm Member since:
2009-05-30

"Just because Microsoft is still profitable now question is how far into the future.

Microsoft has massive government and military contracts that will keep the cash pouring in for a long long time.
"
Those are where the ice is cracking badly.
http://www.computing.co.uk/ctg/news/2337233/london-borough-to-roll-...

You claim Microsoft is doing fine is wrong. Its those massive contracts that are disappearing.

I am not claiming the year of the Linux Desktop at the moment this is more the year of the VDI in large enterprise. Result is less copies of Windows and MS Office required. VDI provided work force only need number of active copies.

Then you have other governments paying for extension to XP for another 12 months.

What exactly do you think the future looks like for the linux desktop?

What you will see in sometime end of this year start of next a battle of dominance. Wayland is convergence. Convergence in the most scary ways possible. There will be reduced application difference between a Linux desktop and Linux Phone. Sailfish OS phones are already using wayland. The work on wayland is bringing render nodes into existence on Linux.

Render nodes brings the means to share a gpu between many users. So now a multi-seat set-up with like 5 users to 1 PC can now have full 3d acceleration. Yes the 1 to 1 model of MS clients will not exist in the Linux world as the dominate option. Multi-seat could also include VDI.

Gets worse that copy of Windows you have running inside a virtual machine can be passed render node access. This brings a new form of scary. Windows XP not getting new drivers will this matter. The answer is no if all the alterations that are happening to Linux. Windows XP or Windows 7 inside a Linux hyper-visor separating them from the real hardware will be able to achieve 90 percent+ of native performance. Historically windows depends on the fact you cannot run it on newer hardware due to no more drivers so you are forced to OS update.

The changes in to the Linux desktop are massive.

Linux desktop after wayland deployment cannot really be compared to the time of the Linux desktop using X11. X11 never supported officially sending 3d rendering to many users sharing the 1 video card. Never support proper secuirty either.

Linux kernel lack of blue screen of death equal is also solved. No more ice-station wondering of the kernel has stopped or not.

X11 will at some point be nothing more than Legacy support on Linux.

I cannot tell you exactly what the Linux Desktop will look like in 12 months time. But I can tell you now that what I will allow will change the world of VDI.

Please remember chromebooks most can be converted to full Linux installs but cannot be converted to Windows. The candy for Linux Desktop growth has been spread.

Reply Score: 2

WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

Render nodes brings the means to share a gpu between many users. So now a multi-seat set-up with like 5 users to 1 PC can now have full 3d acceleration.


I'm just skipping the rest of your rant and focus on this: how many people would actually have use for that? It's a fun gimmick, sure, but you're touting that as some sort of a major feature that will really shape up the landscape, but alas, home users won't have any use for that, very few -- if any -- companies will have use for that, and the people who actually need a powerful GPU for heavy lifting won't be sharing it with others.

Reply Score: 3

oiaohm Member since:
2009-05-30

WereCatf companies are already having uses for it. Render node sharing allows far more control.

Really if you look at a case of blender movie production examples and other real worlds you find out something bad. When you need a really big GPU the reality is you will want to be able to take up any slack usage.

Multi seat allows light users to share their unused GPU time with heavy users.

There is more than 1 way to slice up the GPU using Render nodes.

Render Nodes have the name Nodes for a reason. A user on a node might in fact be using many Nodes at once. Each node being a individual system.

The means to share the GPU to more than 1 user opens up a stack of new options.

Basically Render Nodes work both ways. Means to break up gpu power between many users inside a single node/system as well as combined the power of many GPU's on many different nodes/systems into one super processing solution.

Interesting right. Light users can be stacked on reduced video cards as well so leaving more GPU processing space for heavy users.

Reply Score: 2

WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

Yes, I know what it is and what it does. You still didn't address anything I said.

Reply Score: 3

somebody Member since:
2005-07-07

i could see way more benefits in "here is your screen, draw in it" wayland paradigm than render nodes. sure, multi seat is neat, but not really mass attraction

with simplifying that base approach, they actually made shitload of possibilities. just bad example, wine always suffered from conversion to X11 where they were really bound to play by set rules which were different from the ones they were remaking. instead, wine could take way more native approach. and same as wine, there is shitload of other possibilities where something can take much more native approach when it is not bound to x11 rules

(warning, another bad example here, i suck at it) or canvas rotation in painting software. do you need it with wayland? or better, do you even want it? it is nothing but extra code and slower execution. just separate tools from painting and act as nothing ever happened. btw, your software has canvas rotation

wayland has some nifty features, but "here is your rectangle, draw in it" is by far best, especially when you consider previous state called x11

Reply Score: 3

TechGeek Member since:
2006-01-14

"Render nodes brings the means to share a gpu between many users. So now a multi-seat set-up with like 5 users to 1 PC can now have full 3d acceleration.


I'm just skipping the rest of your rant and focus on this: how many people would actually have use for that? It's a fun gimmick, sure, but you're touting that as some sort of a major feature that will really shape up the landscape, but alas, home users won't have any use for that, very few -- if any -- companies will have use for that, and the people who actually need a powerful GPU for heavy lifting won't be sharing it with others.
"


I will tell you who has need of it. Game companies who want to provide remote access to games. Companies like Amazon are working on technologies that will do the video processing on the server side allowing a low powered device on the front side to access it.

Reply Score: 3

WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

[I will tell you who has need of it. Game companies who want to provide remote access to games. Companies like Amazon are working on technologies that will do the video processing on the server side allowing a low powered device on the front side to access it.


That's a very special use-case, however, and besides, it hasn't been a requirement even before. There are already companies doing this without Wayland.

Reply Score: 3

oiaohm Member since:
2009-05-30

That's a very special use-case, however, and besides, it hasn't been a requirement even before. There are already companies doing this without Wayland.


How is the difference. Before render nodes tech you don't have kernel level splitting.

Doing it without the changes wayland has brought to kernel level in Linux has major issues of security. This also results in stability issues.

Your point is partly correct the possibilities that render nodes open up simply have not been possible todo with quality before. Yes you could do it before but when one program screwed up on the gpu all programs on the gpu could lose context this is even true under Windows.


Multi seat at home has a place. You have your low power tablet and a person is on the PC. If they are not doing anything heavy and the PC has a Linux VDI on it hello you can be using that PC as well.

This is not like XP remote desktop where you take over the PC desktop. Multi-user has a place in the home.

We are looking at a different model. How will the new model Linux will be using fit into the world time will tell.

Reply Score: 1

WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

Multi seat at home has a place. You have your low power tablet and a person is on the PC. If they are not doing anything heavy and the PC has a Linux VDI on it hello you can be using that PC as well.


This has been possible for over a decade now. You've never heard of e.g. headless VNC? You do not need VDI or Wayland to do that.

Reply Score: 3

somebody Member since:
2005-07-07

Microsoft everywhere is a statement by Microsoft they have lost one battle and are trying to re-get footing.


lost the war??? as much as i would like to see them burn in hell, nope that never happened. if anything it was move that was expected long ago, although Balmer simply was not good enough chess player to know when to sacrifice pawn. instead, he was holding and defending every single one. well, to speak further before i get answered... yes, this was in works while Balmer was in charge, but would it see the light of day? and... why is this shift so obviously fast now that he is gone?

losing the ground? well, when you own most market what else can you do? you surely can't grow. and when you need to spend money just for status-quo, how is this sound business plan?

same as open sourcing .Net and WinJS, can't have cloud services if they don't run everywhere and can't have cloud if there are no tools to make them. with open sourcing those 2 they are doing nothing but attracting more development into new paradigm. you could say those 2 are pawns sacrificed for their goal.

Reply Score: 5

cdude Member since:
2008-09-21
somebody Member since:
2005-07-07

ok, that chart includes everything. where everything includes markets where MS was failing or almost not being present at all (not to mention android which is growing is big part of MS revenue)

but, as far as their major line goes (PC), it is more or less expensive status quo which can become cheaper if they provide services.

Reply Score: 3

BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

Oh Goodie, the year of the Linux Desktop! It's about time...

It's never going to happen, give it up. I like Linux, I use Linux, but it's not going to get any great market share, ever. It took too long, and now Android is putting Linux in everyone's hands. Desktop Linux was, and is a no show.

Reply Score: 3

somebody Member since:
2005-07-07

Oh Goodie, the year of the Linux Desktop! It's about time...

It's never going to happen, give it up. I like Linux, I use Linux, but it's not going to get any great market share, ever. It took too long, and now Android is putting Linux in everyone's hands. Desktop Linux was, and is a no show.


only trolls (or clueless) advertise this as total conquering. for normal people it means linux desktop advances to being used more and more. and guess what, it does that every year

android? you are joking, aren't you? even most companies that were biggest pushers of android, now work on tizen. go figure why is that

Reply Score: 1

BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

Ok, I never said conquer, I said "it is never going to get any great market share, ever"

There are more android phones in existence today then there has ever, ever in the whole history of time, Linux Desktops. To try to argue otherwise is just crazy.

Here are several different webpages claiming high market share for Android:

http://www.gsmarena.com/android_worldwide_marketshare_crosses_80_fo...

http://9to5mac.com/2014/02/12/smartphones-are-now-a-95-android-ios-...

http://techcrunch.com/2014/01/29/android-79-ios-16-wp-4/

Only Samsung has any Tizen devices, and the only shipping one is a smart watch.

Reply Score: 3

somebody Member since:
2005-07-07

Ok, I never said conquer, I said "it is never going to get any great market share, ever"

There are more android phones in existence today then there has ever, ever in the whole history of time, Linux Desktops. To try to argue otherwise is just crazy.

Here are several different webpages claiming high market share for Android:

http://www.gsmarena.com/android_worldwide_marketshare_crosses_80_fo...

http://9to5mac.com/2014/02/12/smartphones-are-now-a-95-android-ios-...

http://techcrunch.com/2014/01/29/android-79-ios-16-wp-4/

Only Samsung has any Tizen devices, and the only shipping one is a smart watch.


and only trolls or clueless expect great market share with that meme.

not talking about devices now. talking about investing into development. it would make 0 sense to ship xorg based phone unless that phones middle name is "full_of_bloatware". tizen 3 defaults to wayland and couple that with the rest of more standard environment not hogged by one company...

Reply Score: 1

oiaohm Member since:
2009-05-30

Historically Linux Phones have used framebuffer a lot. Some have used X11 so the zero sense claim is invalid it comes down to what the soc chip provided drivers for. The wayland changes in time will see framebuffer disappear out of the Linux kernel leaving behind only 1 rendering solution.

Now some of the historic phone frameworks have been going direct rendering interface by passing wayland completely. https://www.enlightenment.org/‎ Yes there were quite a few feature phones using enlightenment with Linux many years back on framebuffer.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/04/06/tesla_in_ethernet_port_carr...

Where you find X11 can be very surprising.

Reply Score: 2

BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

ok, First of all, It doesn't matter what Tizen uses, Xorg, Wayland, finger painting, it doesn't matter, Android is already there, on 79% of mobile devices (as per my links in my previous post, which you seem to have ignored) There is one Tizen device, and it's a frigging smart watch. Tizen has no apps, it has no market share, and until it does, it doesn't matter. Windows 8.1 has a better chance than Tizen. All the wishful thinking in the world doesn't change that.

Secondly, people who disagree with you are not "Trolls or clueless" They disagree with you, and considering 79% of the phone market disagrees with you, at least at this time, STFU. Even Samsung (The only OEM shipping a Tizen device) disagrees with you, or they would have shipped a frigging phone with it.

Reply Score: 3

oiaohm Member since:
2009-05-30

BluenoseJake there are two official Tizen devices a camera and a watch. Basically go look up samsungs nx300m.

http://www.kandroid.org/online-pdk/guide/display_drivers.html
Android uses Framebuffer that is marked for termination. Wayland compatibility with existing android drivers is about migration.

Tizen is one of the testing ground for new techs. Wayland protocol being one of those that may end up integrated into Android or at least some form of relation.

The death of framebuffer in Linux kernel will see the SurfaceFlinger in android altered.

There is upheavals coming. 1 unified graphical driver solution for all of Linux is going to be a major change. Framebuffer, DRI and UMS all in one system has been a complete disaster. Why has the Linux desktop not taken off. Problem 1 is that it crashes in strange ways due to having too many ways to drive video card.

BluenoseJake yes its very simple to say what Tizen is doing does not matter until you wake up and see that its a proto platform very much like Sailfish OS at the moment.

X.org will be pushed to background everywhere in the Linux world.

Wayland will be most of the Linux world at this stage. If not wayland something using the techs developed for Wayland.

End result hardware will cease to be designed for Android alone. Instead be designed for Linux.

79% market share of android is providing the resources required to rebuild the Linux Graphical stack.

Multi user effect of the new stack also has multi distribution support. Yes means to run Android inside will get simpler on Linux with the new graphical systems. Swapping out Android audioflinger for pulseaudio has been possible for quite some time.

Reply Score: 1

BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

Oh 2 devices. I stand corrected. It's gonna take the world by storm.

If you think you can distill Linux's failure to achieve even modest market share on the desktop to just one thing, one problem, then I have some swampland in Florida you might be interested it.

THe fact remains that the best technology doesn't always (or ususally) win, it's a combination of technology, marketing, support, a whole bevy of things.

It's telling that Tizen runs on just a smart watch and a camera, 2 devices that aren't that customizable, and don't need a lot of apps, and the apps aren't there, and that's what is keeping Win Phone in the single digits. It's what made Android and iOS kings of the mobile world. APPS.

Reply Score: 3

microsoft's biggest hurdle
by TechGeek on Tue 8th Apr 2014 02:28 UTC
TechGeek
Member since:
2006-01-14

I think Microsoft's biggest hurdle will be bloat. I can have a full server setup in Linux for under 1 gig. Microsoft requires boat loads of more space. They will also have to learn to play with others as they won't be the only ones in the market.

Reply Score: 4