Linked by David Adams on Tue 11th Feb 2003 19:42 UTC
Apple We've had quite the Powerbook-fest here on OS News over the past few days. I also ordered a 12" Powerbook, and I would have received it several days before Eugenia if Airborne hadn't sent it to the wrong state and then lost it somewhere between Ohio and my house. But it finally arrived, and mine is the hot commodity, a 12" Powerbook with Superdrive (DVD Burner), 640 MB RAM, Airport Extreme (802.11g), and a 60 gig HD. My impression is a little different than Eugenia's and I'm approaching from a different angle.
Order by: Score:
apple sucks
by sirmikester on Tue 11th Feb 2003 20:21 UTC

IMHO apple charges too much for their products. I can see that the new Powerbooks have alot of features but then again aren't they horrible when it comes to actual performance? It seems as if people are making excuses for apple just because it isn't microsoft. If you ask me they both use similar tactics although apple isn't nearly as successful at it as microsoft. If apple had their way they would be a monopoly too, people seem to forget that...

DVD playback ....
by Ludovic hirlimann on Tue 11th Feb 2003 20:45 UTC

If you notice some problem's with Apple's DVD player, then take a minute or two to download videolan client for OS X it's really a better dvd palyer than apple's bundled one.

--
http://homepage.mac.com/softkid

Come on...
by Mike Skinner on Tue 11th Feb 2003 20:49 UTC

sirmikester: You haven't actually used an powerbook, have you? I have a Intel P3 800Mhz that I think runs fine and belive me, it isn't faster than my 1ghz PB wich I love. Sometimes I just can't see what I would need all the speed for.

And the price bullshit, everytime I actually compare an IBM, Compaq or other branded laptops the Apple one are really better deals.

Sure you can buy a Dell, but they really fell plastic and badly built. I've never been happy with a Dell.

RE: DVD playback..
by Eugenia on Tue 11th Feb 2003 20:52 UTC

There are more people with the same problem I had, when running DVD fullscreen:
http://discussions.info.apple.com/WebX?128@154.xcPLaXy1h63.157303@....

Re: Come On ...
by Ludovic hirlimann on Tue 11th Feb 2003 20:53 UTC

would need all the speed for
dnetc and other distributed computing projects

Sure you can buy a Dell
Agrred plus, how much will the dell worth six month later ?


--
http://homepage.mac.com/softkid

Browser ??
by Ludovic hirlimann on Tue 11th Feb 2003 20:56 UTC

Eugenia whatr is your favorite os X browser ?
David same question .

http://islande.hirlimann.net

sirmikestr...just trying to stir it up eh?
by blech on Tue 11th Feb 2003 20:57 UTC

You obviously haven't used apple powerbooks in the last few years. I won't make extremely challenging claims (those having to do with photoshop, mips, supercomputers or the Mhz myth), but I will say that (especially now with Jaguar) the g4, even at a lower mhz, can still provide more than enough speed (even is some of it is perceived speed rather than some crazy 3dmark number or whatever) to provide quite an enjoyable daily computing experience. For that matter, with your claims, I wonder how much time you've spent outside windows or even the "flavor of the month" linux.

RE: Browser ??
by Eugenia on Tue 11th Feb 2003 21:01 UTC

Ludovic, you asked me the exact same question yesterday. I didn't change my mind in 25 hours from my previous answer:
http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=2781#72553

Decisions decisions...
by Anonymous on Tue 11th Feb 2003 21:03 UTC

@sirmikester, your post is your opinion and not fact. They are not a monopoly so it doesn't matter does it. As long as they support open standards who cares?

@David Adams, i was going to buy this 12" beauty but have decided against it now. Instead i was going to get a 12" iBook instead, but have decided against that also.

The one thing i do know is that my next laptop is going to be an Apple one. You are right about processor speeds not being important, it doesn't concern me, i understand that with the advantage of portability you can in some cases have to lose upgradability and speed.

My current laptop is a 1ghz NEC, weighs 3.5kg and the battery...well lets say its not worth using.

What i was wanting out of any laptop on the market was low weight, long battery life and to come without a copy of MS.
There are a few companies that will sell without windows however their x86 laptops fail on the first 2 of my requirements and that the low weight and long battery life.

Apple however fits the bill perfectly but looking at the line up and thinking about it at the moment i am not totally happy with whats on offer.

To me the current iBooks are lacking but this is to be expected with them being older models but the 12" PBook in my opinion has been crippled beyond all hope and thus if it weren't for my sitaution i would have to wait for the obvious upgrade 6 months later where these features would be included. The 1MB cache being all the more important and i would expect a 1Ghz processor as a minimum since this seems to be the standard on the current lineup of newer models in their entire product range, i'm not going to wait for the 970, include a GB of RAM in that as well.

So here's to me waiting for the 15" PBook or the new iBooks and see what they will offer. It'll probably be the 15" though, the 17" is far to big and nearing the weight of my current laptop thus it won't meet one of my requirements.

Enjoy yours though and thanks for clearing up the monitor issue.

a 12" screen???
by m on Tue 11th Feb 2003 21:04 UTC

my, that is small nowadays even for a notebook, 'better catch the right angle there.

>>
I don't know what caused the crash, but its been rare enough that I think it might be worth mentioning. It may be that the 12" Powerbook has newer hardware on it that really wants 10.2.4, but it shipped with 10.2.3.
>>

yeah, I remember that voodoo feeling, about six years ago when using MS Windows 9x OSes, or back a few years when using various Linux distros (RH, Libranet, Icepack, Debian, Mandrake). G luck and don't forget to double check the graphics video accelerator, number one guilty of most crashes.

Favorite Browser
by David Adams on Tue 11th Feb 2003 21:04 UTC

I use several browsers. I like Safari despite its bugs for routine lightweight browsing. I like its speed and bookmark management. Once i overrode its ugly brushed metal look I also liked its clean look. But I like IE for its auto-fill adn autocomplete options, which I use all the time. I like Mozilla's password management, so I use it for a lot of my my password sites. I also like tabbed browsing. I like Omniweb for some of its cool features like spellcheck and the new feature that lets you zoom text fields open. It's auto-fill is more configurable than IEs, but it has problems rendering sometimes. So I need a lot of browsers to make me happy.

Damn
by Will on Tue 11th Feb 2003 21:26 UTC

Having ordered the ibook800 maxed out, after reading the first pb review. I wonder if will regret it? Surely it cant be that bad? I just want a general workstation, browser,media player, vim mutt and a few other console apps. I dont expect it to be amazinly fast, but I dont expect to have to wait a long time.
Guess i'll find out in a few days.

Will

heat
by JJ on Tue 11th Feb 2003 21:29 UTC

Surely Apple or any of the 3rd parties could provide a small fan. Fans can be incredibly quiet when run at 7v rather than the noisier 12v std in PCs. Even with the low power of ppc, I would certainly add one myself just to improve comfort & life of such a thing.

FWIW my Mac laptop is a PB100, so it hasn't been used in a decade, if the new Mac laptops had video out that would far exceed LCD rez I could get interested.

Safari https
by Anonymous on Tue 11th Feb 2003 21:30 UTC

Yeah, I had that problem too. I need to login to a website with fucked up security certificates. There is a program though "Safari Enhancer" (see versiontracker) that will enable the Debug menu. Go to Debug-Security-Perform lax certificate checks, and you will be able to use those https sites just fine.

RE: Damn
by Anonymous on Tue 11th Feb 2003 21:37 UTC

Having ordered the ibook800 maxed out, after reading the first pb review. I wonder if will regret it? Surely it cant be that bad? I just want a general workstation, browser,media player, vim mutt and a few other console apps. I dont expect it to be amazinly fast, but I dont expect to have to wait a long time.
Guess i'll find out in a few days.


<funky music>
Trust me, you won't be disappointed. I recently bought an iBook myself for the first time. (800MHz, 12", 384MB ram)
But keep reading all those "apple is slow" posts. Then when you first power up your ibook, you will say like "wtf? the speed is just fine, what are all those crazy people complaining about?"..


I love my ibook :-) I'm a cs student, and I'm a switcher :-)
</funky music>

I feel like I lucked out
by Shamyl Zakariya on Tue 11th Feb 2003 21:39 UTC

Well, I'm going to join the chaos and mention I just got a 12" powerbook as well.. and... I LOVE it.

I have no complaints, except that the palmrest gets hot, which is more disturbing than uncomfortable. The lcd is better than ANY I've had, including MORE expensive Dells and Thinkpads (both cost more than 2k). It's more powerful than anythign I've owned. It's better built than anything I've owned. It's smaller than anything I've owned.

And, for first the first time ever, I have a machine I can do unix(y) programming on and still play 3d games and run paid-for professional commercial software. Further, I've installed X11 and KDE and as such I'm able to handle my email through KMail, which is my favorite.

And, for once, I have a laptop where the powermanagment JUST WORKS. My old thinkpad and inspiron, even when they briefly ran windows, couldn't make that claim.

It's not as fast as a comparable PC but I don't care. It's 300% more powerful than I need, since 90% of my work is development; and frankly, the extra horsepower would just shorten battery life. Everything works, well.

And, the experience is top notch. I'm 75% eady to ditch my gentoo thinkpad on ebay and just go 100% mac. All I need is to get a valid qt/kde dev environment working and I'm set.

IBook
by Max on Tue 11th Feb 2003 21:39 UTC

I have a 700mhz IBook which I bought at the end of August, and I am completely happy with it. With OS X, RAM really matters though; using the Ibook wasn't very enjoyable with only 128MB, so I got a 512MB DIMM from Crucial. If you are worried about heat, I would probably go with the IBook because it rarely gets hot, and when it does the fan turns on and it cools off within a matter of a few minutes.

Similar Experience
by Jay on Tue 11th Feb 2003 22:03 UTC

Well, we've had two really thorough reviews now. My experience with my 12" PB is pretty much exactly as David describes his. 8/10 is a fair score for it, I'd say.

I burned a DVD last night with it. It's slow, but it works!

I haven't had the DVD Player problem show up yet, but can see how that could happen.

I was also disappointed the 12" doesn't have the illuminated keyboard - that would be so cool and practical too. I hate having to turn on an overhead light just to see the keyboard.

Also *strongly* agree about Apple skimping on base RAM. I've got 640 MB, but 768 would be better. I'm anxious to see if Eugenia will have performance improvements when she puts her extra RAM in.

I like the default resolution - I have to wear "computer glasses" as it is, but I can see how others might want a little higher resolution.

I bookmarked that site that has those gel palm rest thingies that someone posted. I might get those.

It is an excellent laptop though - the small form factor, better performance than expected, nice LCD (in my case ;-).

And an excellent review!

@Will - You won't regret getting the 800 MHz iBook - it's very durable, a really good user experience.

@Eugenia - OWC has *again* slashed the price of the Cube 800 MHz upgrade - resistance is futile!! :-D

RE: Jay
by Eugenia on Tue 11th Feb 2003 22:07 UTC

I have put the 512 MB DIMM in it, it is ok, I can now have more apps open in my virtual desktops without the lag because of swap.

deal breaker
by stopdabombing on Tue 11th Feb 2003 22:08 UTC

I like the idea of an Apple laptop, I really do. But to me, at this point, there is just one absolute deal breaker - I NEED USB 2.0 - I do a lot of digital photography, and I want to be able to download my CF cards to the laptop in reasonable time when on the road. Without fw 800 and usb 2, this is a deal-breaker. Also, I really would like more RAM and cache, but that's fixable to a degree. Lack of usb 2 is not. Longer battery life would be nice too, but I guess we'll have to wait a long time for this, since there's really only two ways to go - reduce the power-drain, or extend the battery life - of the two, the laptop makers are dragging their feet on power consumption, and it is not realistic to think that'll ever go down. Meanwhile extending battery life is hard - we need some breakthrough in physics not just technology. So I'm pessimistic on battery. Ideally here's a battery I'd love - I can work a laptop for 6 hours straight on an airplane, watching DVD movies as well as some light word-processing, photo filing etc., get off the airplane, sit at the airport for a couple of hours - watch a DVD movie, get on an airplane for another 3 hours of work/movie - total of 11 hours straight without re-charging... yes, I know, they are still at the lab working on such a battery.

Windows Media Player Plugin Support
by Eugenia on Tue 11th Feb 2003 22:12 UTC

Anyone knows if there is a way of running streaming Windows Media on the Mac? I download the Windows Media Player, but NONE of the browsers are able to load the music video clips on http://launch.yahoo.com
They recommend to use Netscape 4.x and the OS9 media player plugins, which is of course unacceptable. I want to do it with either IE or Mozilla or Safari under OSX. ;)

RE:Windows Media Player Plugin Support
by Will on Tue 11th Feb 2003 22:15 UTC

Well, using mozilla with the mplayer plugin works nicely for me but then thats under linux. Should work fine under osx too i guess?

Will

RE:Windows Media Player Plugin Support
by Will on Tue 11th Feb 2003 22:19 UTC

On second thoughts I dont know if that works with streaming media, but i think i read somewhere it did, or i've completely lost it.:)

Will

RE: Windows Media Player Plugin Support
by Eugenia on Tue 11th Feb 2003 22:20 UTC

I don't think that launch.yahoo.com will work well with mPlayer. And I need universal support, OS-wide, not just for Mozilla...

Re: deal breaker
by Jay on Tue 11th Feb 2003 22:24 UTC

stopdabombing, that would be a big drawback in your situation. Everyone now is anxious to see what the new 15" PowerBook will bring. Perhaps it might be the one for you.

Eugenia, that is good to hear.

mouse
by kevin on Tue 11th Feb 2003 22:30 UTC

...2 button mouse... ?

too hot? bah!
by brackeen on Tue 11th Feb 2003 22:50 UTC

people complain about the heat, but this thing is cased with aluminum for god sakes. you know, the metal used to keep soda cool? when i wake up in my 65-degree apartment, the thing is too damn *cold*. resting my palms brings chills. have to rip a couple CDs to get it warmed up.

Whats wrong with Windows?
by Brandon Philips on Tue 11th Feb 2003 22:53 UTC

I haven't had a modern release of Windows crash on me for several years if I use high quality hardware (good up to spec ram, P4 or Athelons). I think that WinXP is catching up fast to the stability of the MacOS, and with the lower prices of x86, and more quality software available, why switch?

I have been using an iBook for writing C++ and Python code, and the development enviroments for these languages hardly compare to what is available for Windows, so why in the world would a CS major use an iBook? As for performance I have to comply that these machines (iBooks) seem dog slow when you get a many programs open (running at 640mb).

And the only real advantage Mac has is the "Unix" operating system. But, is no where close to being able to compile your favorite Unix utility on Mac X. Heck, TKinter took my friend hours to get running right after he upgraded to 10.2.

From what I have seen the new "Jaguar" line of hardware/software from Apple, looks pretty, but simply is not compatible enough to get real work done.

dell vs apple
by stew on Tue 11th Feb 2003 23:23 UTC

Sure you can buy a Dell, but they really fell plastic and badly built. I've never been happy with a Dell.

What puzzles me is that my iBook can hold more RAM than my Inspiron 8100, where the Inspiron cost more than twice as much and is a month younger.

MS, Linux, OS X
by linux on Tue 11th Feb 2003 23:23 UTC

I am using Toshiba Satellite 5105 S701(P4M 1.8G, 440Go, 1G RAM) which is a quite powerful PC laptop 6 months ago. Even though it is idel in XP, its fan will turn on every few minute and it is very LOUD. With a strong fan, I can still feel the heat underneth the 2cm thick wood table. It is heavy (7.2 lb) also. I bought this since I waht to have a powerful machine to replace my desktop. Imaging that XP is doing something similar to Quartz, how fast will it be. (Think about what Quartz does, before you answer this question.)
Comparing TWM with KDE can have many different results depends on your focus (point of views).
I know that OS X is not fully optimized and its UI may seems slow sometimes.
I have a dual PIII 933 running linux. I used to help people solving problems related to X-window, driver, and instaling software (rpm hell). If I want to find an UNIX like alternative, it may be OS X.
What I want to say is that buy whatever you like and take full advantage of that machine. There will be many reasons for people to choose different machine/OS, and there may be no single right or wrong answer.
Writing program in Cocoa is easy and fun. I also Borland C++ builder and JBuilder in school.
If you are running "dnetc" (www.distributed.net), you will NOT think that G4 is slow. If you are using word, any recent Mac is able to handle it. If you are talking about something is available only to PC/SUN/... or perform much better in PC/SUN/..., go ahead and use them.
There is no reason to fight based on different point of view. Anyway, I will get PB G4 12" since I want to bring it to school every day. 7.2lb notebook + textbook will be TOO heavy...
:-)

More about Mac OS X.
http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/macosx/Essentials/SystemOvervie...

...
by CrackedButter on Tue 11th Feb 2003 23:24 UTC

@Stopdabombing, USB2 can be put into the 15" or 17" model, you just need a 3rd party expansion card.

@Brandon Philips, its personal taste, XP treats people like a kid and it isn't as polished os OSX. Besides, the laptop batteries on the x86 platform don't last long enough.

iBook
by Jay on Tue 11th Feb 2003 23:28 UTC

Brandon, there's nothing wrong with XP. I don't understand what you're saying though. I don't understand why you're doing that kind of work on a consumer laptop...with all kinds of programs open? iBooks are just supposed to be for iApps and AppleWorks. What do you mean the Jaguar hardware/software are not "compatible enough"? Compatible with what??? Me no understand :-)

Re: Come on...
by imaginereno on Tue 11th Feb 2003 23:36 UTC

"Sure you can buy a Dell, but they really fell plastic and badly built. I've never been happy with a Dell."

Ditto that!!!

I have a PC notebook and it is built like crap when compared to any of the Apple notebooks. Period.

me
by sirmikester on Tue 11th Feb 2003 23:39 UTC

I love to stir it up!!

anyway I've been using linux for about a year now, and I have to say that I love it. I've tried a couple different distros and I have to say that having a choice is the best thing about the os.

As for apple price/performance vs x86 I have to say that i still don't see it. I've used G4's in the past and OSX runs like crap on them and I think that the aqua interface is very much to blame. I would rather buy a used IBM thinkpad p3 (~800 Mhz) from ebay and throw a flavor of linux/bsd on it and have a system that would rival the Powerbook but at 1/3 of the cost. The performance should be about the same on it as well. Does anyone see the problem here?

"Does anyone see the problem here?"
by Anonymous on Tue 11th Feb 2003 23:43 UTC

Yeah, we don't give a sh1t, but you keep telling us over and over again.

If you aren't going to switch to a Mac, don't know sh!t about them, and are happy in your own little world, we're happy to. We don't care. You are a pathetic little troll. That's the only problem here.

Replacement of the 15" PBs
by Happy Hippo on Tue 11th Feb 2003 23:53 UTC

Hi,

does anyone know, when the 15" TiBooks are replaced by the AluPBs? Some rumors?

Cheers

Happy

Re: stopdabombing, kevin
by Bascule on Tue 11th Feb 2003 23:55 UTC

stopdabombing: I like the idea of an Apple laptop, I really do. But to me, at this point, there is just one absolute deal breaker - I NEED USB 2.0 - I do a lot of digital photography, and I want to be able to download my CF cards to the laptop in reasonable time when on the road. Without fw 800 and usb 2, this is a deal- breaker.

Here are two FireWire CF readers that work with OS X:
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/dynadirect/st-fwcf.html
http://www.expansys.us/product.asp?code=MDCF-FW

You don't need FireWire 800 or USB 2. In either case, the bottleneck will be Compact Flash, which has a sustained transfer rate of about 40Mbps, 1/10th of (400Mbps) FireWire's maximum bandwidth.

kevin: ...2 button mouse... ?

This has been my biggest complaint about Apple laptops from the outset. The only thing Apple has done to help this problem is integrate Bluetooth, which makes it possible to use a Bluetooth mouse, but that's a less than ideal solution.

Screenshot of the Powerbook setup
by Eugenia on Tue 11th Feb 2003 23:55 UTC

Here is a screenshot of my 12" Powerbook, this is the setup on the screen i see most of the time:
http://img.osnews.com/img/2547/powerbook.png
Safari on the left (thanks for the login tip).
Fire on the left which allows me to connect to all 4 main IM services.
Underneath it is CodeTek's VirtualDesktop application which allows me to have 4 virtual screens and compensate for the low resolution of the laptop. On the other 3 screens I mostly open other apps to work with, but the first virtual desktop is my main one.
Underneath all that, there is MacAmp LiteX playing my favorite internet radio station. ;)
The Dock is on auto-hide mode.

Reply
by Brandon Philips on Wed 12th Feb 2003 00:01 UTC

Sorry about my last post, I was up until 1:00 am last night (first class at 7:00am) and still havent recovered!

*Butter: The whole thing about Apple laptops having longer battery life is not true in any way. Sure PC computers get horrible battery performance if you are running a P4 @ 2.4 ghz with all the cache on. Get a system that is more suited to the power of a Macintosh, possibly a PIIIM 1ghz? Then the battery performance will be a wash. Try turning off all the power saving options on your Apple and see how the life is. And secondly at least PC manufacturers think to put a fan on a blazing hot processor (common sense here Apple? put a fan on your processor, it might not be "sleek thing to do" but it makes sense!)

Jay: By standards I mean Unix standards. Don't put Unix on the label unless you mean it Apple! A bash console and a deprecated top program does not mean Unix.

RE: Reply to Brandon Philips
by Eugenia on Wed 12th Feb 2003 00:06 UTC

MacOSX Server is a real unix. The consumer OSX is also a Unix. Sure, it has been modified and added more layers, and it doesn't use X11 by default, but the underlying architecture and POSIX compliancy would qualify OSX as the "next gen" Unix of some sort. What is Unix anyway? How do you qualify an OS as a Unix and not another one? By paying royalties to SCO? I doubt it. It is all about the architecture baby!

Thanks, nice review.
by Anonymous on Wed 12th Feb 2003 00:12 UTC

Unlike E., you know what you are talking about.

RE:  Thanks, nice review.
by Eugenia on Wed 12th Feb 2003 00:19 UTC

Oh, give us a break, will ya? David wrote a good review and he likes the product, I have other gripes and I fully explained them. David is coming over to CA in a few weeks and we expect to compare our two 12" Powerbooks side by side regarding the LCD. And in fact, David agrees that the LCD used on the 12" is not as good as the one on his 15", mostly the viewing angle.

weird...
by TrueDis on Wed 12th Feb 2003 00:19 UTC

I could swear he just trashed it (although in different ways than eugenia) and then gave it an 8/10 ... can you say mindless mac drone

2 Button mouse
by David Adams on Wed 12th Feb 2003 00:21 UTC

This has been my biggest complaint about Apple laptops from the outset. The only thing Apple has done to help this problem is integrate Bluetooth, which makes it possible to use a Bluetooth mouse, but that's a less than ideal solution.

I'm not sure that I understand what you're saying, but I think that the standardization on USB and Mac OS X's complete support for multi-button mice (from 3rd parties) did way more than bluetooth will do.

This is a Steve Jobs thing. He is stuck on the one button mouse. Now it's true that it's easier for novice computer users to do the mouse thing with one button, but I think Steve is a little extreme on this issue. Most Mac users that I know are power users, and we all use 3rd party mice, like the Microsoft Intellimouse, with lots of programmable buttons. Franky, I don't want two buttons on my trackpad. You just can't do a right click on a trackpad anyway, so the click+ctrl actually works better. But with the mouse, I'd like multi-buttons.

I mentioned the two button mouse in my Fantasyland Powerbook mostly as a joke, because I think it's unlikely that Steve will let a multi-button mouse slip by. To be honest, with the good third party ones available, who cares if they ever do.

to TrueDis
by David Adams on Wed 12th Feb 2003 00:24 UTC

I take offense at that. I happen to be a very thoughtful and intelligent Mac drone.

I didn't trash it, and neither did Eugenia, we just looked at its faults with more rigor than the average reviewer. Believe, me, there is hardly a single tech device that I wouldn't find at least that many faults with. It's true, an 8 out of 10 is a good score, but it's not a 10, and there are good reasons why it's not. I came very close to giving it a 7, but overall it's a good machine, and almost as close to being a great laptop as any laptop I've had, PC or Mac.

Mouse?
by KevinW on Wed 12th Feb 2003 00:27 UTC

@Bascule

>> kevin: ...2 button mouse... ?

> This has been my biggest complaint about Apple laptops from
> the outset. The only thing Apple has done to help this
> problem is integrate Bluetooth, which makes it possible to
> use a Bluetooth mouse, but that's a less than ideal
> solution.

This answer confuses me. Can't you just plug in any USB mouse with as many buttons as you want?

12"
by RJW on Wed 12th Feb 2003 00:37 UTC

Can someone explain why everyone is making a big deal out of this machine with a 12" screen? I can't imagine staring at a screen that size for an extended period of time.
And 1152x864 resolution? Going above 1024x768 is too small for comfort on my 17" monitor. How can anyone stand it? I could never spend 2K on something like that.

the mouse
by Brad on Wed 12th Feb 2003 00:42 UTC

yes we have all heard about the 2 button mouse. Like others I think apple needs it on the laptops. Yes on a desktop you can just change the factory mouse no big deal, except for the silly ness of throwing out a perfectly good mouse. For a laptop it's much differant. Soon as you have to start plugging things in it does work. A laptop is a portable computer. If your hooking things into it, that means it's missing something. It boggels the mind that many people buy a laptop put it on their desk and start hooking a mouse in, bigger monitor, real keyboard, external drives.... And it stays there, it never gets used as a laptop. Don't belive me? Walk around a dorm at a University or ask someone that Is at school and they will tell you. The only thing that should be plugged in is Power and Printer, and ethernet. The day they have built in printer or wireless power will be interesting. If I buy a laptop I want it to be fully functional. That means a real mouse. If apple doesn't want to have them all come with two buttons fine. But make it an option. Let people decide this one. It would not be hard to make this an option. Let two buttons be a feature on the Al's and leave the iBooks with 1 button if you like. In a little over year i intend to get a powerbook, the 17" or whatever the biggest thing they have is then, I hope they have done something with the mouse by then. Other wise I will find myself developing a replacement mouse for it.


And yes I like the 17", people seam to wonder why people would want it. Well many like myself can't understand getting a 12" laptop. Thats insanely small. The world is used to 17" monitors. I and many I know have always complained about laptop screens being to small. 12" vs 17" is no more portable. It's the fundementals of the design that make it portable, not the size of the sceen. Both fit in a backpack the same. I would not be surprised if the 17" is a great seller and a much bigger draw for switcher then any of the other models. It finds itself having something no other laptop does.

RE: 12"
by Eugenia on Wed 12th Feb 2003 00:48 UTC

I use 1152zx864 on 17" screens, and 1280x1024 on 19". Of course, to use these resolutions on these screens, they will have to be able to do at least 80 Hz. If they can't do these res for these sizes, I don't buy them or shop better model.

As for laptops, the story is different and 1152x864 is easily acceptable when the LCD quality is good on 12.1" or 12.6". SONY does 1280x768 on 10.4".

LCD again
by Eugenia on Wed 12th Feb 2003 01:01 UTC

>and the resolution is not enough to make the anti-aliasing in Entourage not look blurry

David, smaller resolutions doesn't make the fonts look blurry. LCD quality makes it as such. You are complaining about the same things (blurry fonts, bad viewing angle) but at the end you say you are happy with it, even after you experience and mention the problems exactly as I have.

Another test is to take a Finder window (Applications folder) and move it around on your empty screen and you will see how motion blurred it becomes! Do the same on your 15" Powerbook or another non-Apple LCD screen that is of good quality (and not a cheap-a$$ laptop/screen) and you will see that the lag of the refresh won't be as bad.

These are the 3 problems I have with this LCD screen and while you have experience them, you mention that you don't mind them. People should understand (instead of trolling at me) that I DO mind it. These 3 problems are just the spec of what this LCD can do. And these are the specs of what a cheap LCD can do. And while it works (I use this powerbook exclusively now), I find it unacceptable to be used in a $2000 laptop.
There is always that HP laptop that is faster than this Powerbook and has pretty much the same specs and better LCD, for $999. If I knew about the LCD status I would have buy either that cheap HP or the Compaq 1525US which costs even less than this laptop and has res at 1440 and P4 at 2.4 GHz.

Ram size.
by Donaldson on Wed 12th Feb 2003 01:09 UTC

You know considering the price of ram and the fact Apple Computers Inc. builds its on mother boards. They should just go ahead and stick 2 GB of ram on all the laptops. and on the higend models put 4 GB. They could also tweak the OS so it
dosen't refresh the ram when not being used. (cut power consumption)

Hey just a thought.

Now if I could just get bigger ram modules for my 164LX. Would love to have 16GB of ram on that bad boy.

Leslie D. aka anon

LCD Again
by cedar on Wed 12th Feb 2003 01:40 UTC

<quote>David, smaller resolutions doesn't make the fonts look blurry. LCD quality makes it as such.</quote?

Eugenia, have you played with your font and text smoothing prefs under "General" in the sytem prefs? I have had good luck with getting my ibook text more to my liking using those controls. It maybe some of the quality issues you are experiencing are due to too much text smoothing. The shake a window motion blurr problem is an lcd quality issue. But out of curiosity, was it cool in the room? I have found temp does impact lcd performance.

I have an ibook with a 12.1 inch screen that I think is lovely. Sharp and bright. And though I like more pixels, I think more than 1024x768 in such a small screen would make text too small. I briefly played with a 12.1 inch powerbook in a store and in that short period the powerbook screen struck me as just as nice. I'm curious to see how your side-by-side with David goes.

best,

Cedar

Re fonts
by Donaldson on Wed 12th Feb 2003 01:57 UTC

You know by this point in the thread (and thread number 2 I might add)

Eugenia HAS PLAYED WITH THE FONTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

good gawd people. She has played the fonts more
than is legal in 30 States and 2 teritories.

On the issue of battery life. I think Apple Computer Inc. has a good thing going there. I have been shopping around the laptop world (Checking out ia32 based ones) and they are pretty sad. I would like a P3 1ghz with the latest ATI portable chipset one spindle and three batteries. This defines exactlly what you can't get in a laptop. Maybe it's time to take dremel to my laptop and remove the dvd drive. and install a 3rd battery pack. hmmmm

Time to go look up the circuit for recharging batteries.

L. Donaldson

RE: LCD again
by Eugenia on Wed 12th Feb 2003 01:57 UTC

Yes, I played with the font prefs, no fixing. And the fact that David says the same about his, it only means that the LCD sharpness is not as good. Resolution doesn't have to do anything with fonts, quality does. The same thickness of pixels will get shown on a 1024 screen or on a 1440... Just fewer.

what do you want?
by Evan on Wed 12th Feb 2003 01:57 UTC

to read a review that doesnt talk about things which may annoy you?

There are a ton of things I dislike about my ibook, but I still love it.

Icon placement bug (moves the icons in all directs for no reason)

How I cant shut the lid when the laptop is plugged in and leave the thing in a non-sleeping state (so I can receive instant messages, stay connected to servers, and transfer files etc).

How scratched up the outer shell gets all the time (I have a 5-6 year old thinkpad that is spotless, and this damned thing didnt last a week).

I would also like to put in an extra battery instead of cdrom on this laptop too, since I very rarely use the cdrom anyway.

I wish installing ram wasnt a pita (screw was partially covered by casing, had to do some creative angling to take it out).

How the power cord's connector to the ibook got damaged with light use and is now being held together by loads of duct tape and no longer lights up green.

The damned beachball.

But I still love my ibook to death. I have had sooooo much crap happen to my pcs which take hours or days to fix, that even these annoyances in comparison are nothing. Yes the LCD is not a awesome one from sharp, but its a hell of alot better then any CRT Ive used (possibly due to using crappy fonts on win2k or older OSes when I used em). And it was an extremely cheap laptop for it's features and size, so I think I could put up with the crappy lcd. But I would not buy something that gets annoyingly hot after long periods of use.

@Eugenia
by Ernesto on Wed 12th Feb 2003 02:00 UTC

What is the name of the trillian like software on your pb screenshoot?

RE: Ernesto
by Eugenia on Wed 12th Feb 2003 02:03 UTC

fire.sf.net

Re screen size.
by Donaldson on Wed 12th Feb 2003 02:08 UTC

Has anyone bother to really compare the resolution of the screens? And what I mean is this:
> Cut from my XF86config file
Section "Monitor"
Identifier "ViewSonic P225f"
DisplaySize 400 300
EndSection

My laptop is smaller but the Size of the display refrenced
to the "native" resolution of the LCD gives your DPI.

for example my P225f at 1600x1200 is at

screen #0:
dimensions: 1600x1200 pixels (402x302 millimeters)
resolution: 101x101 dots per inch


so I was wondering about the 12" laptop.
so I was wondering about the 17" laptop.

etc

Note I'm using X terminology because that is the machine I'm currently sitting in front of....

L. Donaldson


Illuminated Keyboard Disappointment?
by PC on Wed 12th Feb 2003 02:26 UTC

Hello,

Just wondering Dave, you mentioned that you were disappointed there is no illuminated keyboard on the 12" - how relevant would you find this is in the day and age of people who can touch type? (And in general, barely look at the keyboard anyhow?)

Curious,

PC

RE:  Illuminated Keyboard Disappointment?
by Eugenia on Wed 12th Feb 2003 02:33 UTC

Not all can do that. Plus, it is impossible to position your fingers to the right position to start writting without seeing which key is behind your figers in the beginning.

RE: Illuminated Keyboard Disappointment?
by Donaldson on Wed 12th Feb 2003 02:42 UTC

for touch typing ther is a bumb on the f and j key
to position your hands( My nails are too long so I can't use
these bumbs.

L. Donaldson

RE: Illuminated Keyboard Disappointment?
by Eugenia on Wed 12th Feb 2003 02:47 UTC

I write very fast, but I don't use the standard of F and J keys, I got my own style.. I don't know if in US people are learning typing at school, but on other countries they don't, so the people who type fast, they just get there by having their own style.
Many people are like that, so it is one of the reasons to have some light in order to position your hands before start typing.

RE: scrren info follup
by Donaldson on Wed 12th Feb 2003 02:55 UTC

okay more screen data for the dye hards

12.1 inch 1024x768
15.2 inch 1280x854
17 inch 1440x900

now just to get the mm per side. (Apple dosen't seem to have that info handy.)

L. Donaldson

re: touch typing...
by Evan on Wed 12th Feb 2003 03:03 UTC

even for self taught... its a pain to find the keys in the dark when they are all the same level, and the fkeys are right next to the number keys, and there is no gab like on my desktop keyboard between a and capslock. Its very easy to get uncentered on a laptop in the dark.

Re: What's wrong with Windows?
by Lars on Wed 12th Feb 2003 03:12 UTC

I have been using an iBook for writing C++ and Python code, and the development enviroments for these languages hardly compare to what is available for Windows, so why in the world would a CS major use an iBook?

The important elements of a development environment are a decent text editor, a flexible build tool, the compiler/interpreter itself, a smart programmer, and lots of thinking. Everything else is fluff: sometimes nice to have, but not essential.

But, is no where close to being able to compile your favorite Unix utility on Mac X.

By this standard, IBM's AIX is nowhere close to Unix either :-)

Re: What's wrong with Windows?
by Donaldson on Wed 12th Feb 2003 03:17 UTC

Well lets see, it took them till version 2.5 of their
compiler to get strcpy to work...

Windows developer has an column dedicated to the latest greatest compiler bug. My personal favorite was the integer to float comparsion always takes the first branch.

Also it's nice to have a well developed command line and makefile system. (printf was made to go to the command line.)

ipcs makes debugging shared memory assignments a lot easier.

MS has some nice high level packages and libraries but for learning C++ I always recomend unix so students get the real feel for the laguage. libc libm and a compiler baby.

iBook is awesome
by CharlesVan on Wed 12th Feb 2003 03:53 UTC

You won't regret getting the iBook... just make sure you max out the RAM to 640 and then decide if it's slow or fast.

I love using mine... and i have an FP iMac 800MHz at home.

The 12" Powerbook would be a nice upgrade, but not a must-have.

Touch Typing
by Jay on Wed 12th Feb 2003 04:01 UTC

Many people here in the U.S. sort of do it half and half (which is what I do). Do they teach touch in high school? I'm so old that, when I was in high school, not only where there no computers, but our typing class used *manual* typewriters! Once you learn that, you never totally forget :-)

Illuminated Keyboard
by David Adams on Wed 12th Feb 2003 04:13 UTC

I touch type, but when I have to start doing key combinations, type numbers and symbols, and other wierd stuff, that's when I need to see the keyboard. And I do like to use my computer in the dark. Truth be told, I think that most typists would have to muddle a bit to type in complete darkness. I do have a usb-powered led light, and that's also good for illuminating the general area, but it's not as convenient. :-)

Re: iBook is awesome
by jodie on Wed 12th Feb 2003 04:42 UTC

I got a 800 mhz ibook with 640 ram to replace a k6 vaio laptop running Mandrake (it was SO slow and crappy). For a G3 800 mhz, (I never have enough money to buy the fastest processor anyways) it is fast in OSx. But the real deal for me is the small size, light weight, battery life, low low heat and the low level of noise when it's on. Is the PB so much hotter than the ibook>?

More Mice Questions
by Reformist on Wed 12th Feb 2003 04:55 UTC

This is not powerbook related, but Mac related. What does Jobs expect Mac users to do when using native Mac mice (which I assume is what he would like) when using mouse-button intensive applications such as 3Dsmax, or games such as Unreal Tournament or WC3? I understand there is a ctrl-click equivalent for right click, but that kind of combination doesn't cut it when things like 3dsmax require a lot of hotkeys along side multiple mouse buttons (middle, thumb, and scrolling wheel, in addition to right clicking) to be able to design quickly. Also, games where keyboard control moves the character leaves no room for also hovering over the control key.

Maybe I'm missing something, I admit I'm definately uneducated about the issue... I understand you can just buy a MS or logitech fully featured mouse, but the desktops come with Mac Mice, and for Mac enthusiasts, it must suck having to trash the "nice looking" mouse and install an MS or 3rd party USB mouse.

Also, on the laptops, some people may not use right click, but many do (I for one), along with other nice features that I'm not sure Apple designers will ever permit in their laptops. For example, I have an HP laptop with 2 buttons, touchpad, and a touch-mouse wheel. Move your finger (like the touchpad) and it simulates moving a wheel - very cool, but very sensitve. I see no immediate way of gaining the functionality described above on a portable machine where plugging in an external mouse is undesireable, or not possible. It also seems strange that the expansion options that users seek, in terms of mice, never come from Apple (but from PC mouse makers).

Great review!
by aphex on Wed 12th Feb 2003 05:04 UTC

Title says it all!

Apple Mice
by Jay on Wed 12th Feb 2003 05:11 UTC

It is weird. When Jobs left Apple, '85, Apple continued with the one button mouse. Yet, at NeXT, they used two button mice.

On OS 9, there is a freeware utility called FinderPop. With it installed, you press the mouse button and hold it and contextual menus pop up. I don't know of anything similar for OS X. I have a Kensington Studio Mouse, which is wonderful, programable, etc. It's always been that way with Apple - it's always been a third party area.

Re: Jay
by Bascule on Wed 12th Feb 2003 05:14 UTC

On OS 9, there is a freeware utility called FinderPop. With it installed, you press the mouse button and hold it and contextual menus pop up. I don't know of anything similar for OS X.

This is built into OS X per default

Mouse, thinkpad
by anon on Wed 12th Feb 2003 05:22 UTC

This is not powerbook related, but Mac related. What does Jobs expect Mac users to do when using native Mac mice (which I assume is what he would like) when using mouse-button intensive applications such as 3Dsmax, or games such as Unreal Tournament or WC3?

I think it's very sensible to stay with the 1-button mouse. Many people overestimate the majority of computer users. Whenever you deal with actual users, it's very eye-opening, how unsophisticated they are.

This is a good review, but I wished it compared the Powerbook to the Thinkpad -- probably the most sensible review since the Thinkpad is generally considered the highest-end PC notebook in terms of design and reliability.

re:jay
by Brad on Wed 12th Feb 2003 05:50 UTC

>>Many people here in the U.S. sort of do it half and half (which is what I do). Do they teach touch in high school? I'm so old that, when I was in high school, not only where there no computers, but our typing class used *manual* typewriters!<<

Well you don't have to be to old for this. I graduated HS in 1999. When i took typing it was on typewriters. My school didn't have any real computers till my senior year. Before that they just had the random computer they got for free. When i left teachers where still using macs from the 80's those all in one keyboard deals with a tiny green monitor. They still were using the macs that i learned logo on in 1st grade and played oregon trail on there after. I guess the funny part is they didn't buy anymore macs after 1986. If we didn't have back water hick schools we would loose touch with the 1950's, we must preserve them.

Stop the Reviews of the 12"!
by Tom Boucher on Wed 12th Feb 2003 07:09 UTC

Not for the reason you think. The reason I don't want to read any more of these is I'm using my 15" TiBook 550Mhz and keep thinking I need the 12" to replace it with.

I'm trying to hold out in the hope there will be a 15" AlBook soon. I love my wide screen, but the 17" is just too big for me.

But that 12" is so perfectly small. I loved my Duo 280c years ago. Best sub-notebook of it's era. period

And don't know what laptops you all have been pricing, but intel laptops are comparable in price and most performance until banias comes out. I know, I did some comparison.

Re: KevinW
by Bascule on Wed 12th Feb 2003 07:31 UTC

This answer confuses me. Can't you just plug in any USB mouse with as many buttons as you want?

Yes, but this is a laptop and an external mouse (especially one you have to plug in) is a cumbersome solution.

Which is why a Bluetooth mouse is nice... just set the laptop down next to the mouse and you're ready to go.

@Brandon Philips
by CrackedButter on Wed 12th Feb 2003 07:53 UTC

I DO have a 1Ghz processor in my laptop, its an Intel P3. Battery life sucks, its lasts 45 minutes.

Another case in point, the G4 is one processor, Apple uses it for the laptops and desktops, they don't have to make 2 seperate versions like Intel does.

Apple did use to put fans on their laptops, people complained about the noise and wanted rid of them, look at the result now, hot palmrests.

Mouse
by Anonymous on Wed 12th Feb 2003 07:55 UTC

Picture who you're selling your product to: NeXT vs Macintosh. This is the distinguishing factor between the 2-button and 1-button mouse (respectively).

I use a 1600x1200 resolution screen (15"), and I can read 8-PT fonts with comfort and ease. That's even with my font-DPI set to 75, while in reality it's about 132. Then again, most people don't have my vision, and vision correction can't get to 15 yet. I'm not accustomed to virtual desktops, so I like to have all my windows comfortably on the screen.

I could still go for a higher resolution without any eye-strain...

@Brad
by Iggy Drougge on Wed 12th Feb 2003 08:26 UTC

The computers you describe were Apple II's, not Macs.

Mice and their button(s)
by Iggy Drougge on Wed 12th Feb 2003 08:31 UTC

The mouse button argument is only a semi-argument. Windows didn't make any use of the right button until 95. Before that, it just sat there, unless you happened to be using some special application.
The point is that the MacOS is designed around a one-button mouse, and thus the need for any more buttons isn't all that great. Windows 9x and its siblings are designed around two-button mice, but an unknowing X-Windows user would criticise the common PC for not having a three-button mouse. In effect, a third button will just lay dormant, again unless the user is running some particular application which makes good use of it.
I've been involved in one of the Mac strongholds - publishing. There, the lack of mouse buttons has never been perceived as a problem. I once used a two-button equipped Mac for Photoshop, but barely ever touched the second button. The OS didn't make any particular use of it anyway, it was just used as a "caps lock" for the first button. Just a waste of microswitches.

RE: Mice and their button(s)
by Dave on Wed 12th Feb 2003 10:39 UTC

Well, that's not true!

I am an OS X user as well, and I use it all the time! The idea behind a right-click is that whatever you right-click on, every option you can perform on that object is displayed for selection. This is true of all interfaces. Without it, many options lie undiscovered.

12 inch heatlamp
by Roberto J Dohnert on Wed 12th Feb 2003 11:51 UTC

First Im going to say this, dont bother flaming me because it is my opinion and opinions are like ---holes everyones got one. I find this review to be a grudge review Eugenia didnt all that much care for some of the powerbooks shortcommings and it appears that some Macheads didnt like her review so they posted their own and gave it high marks. I have never known Eugenia to give a unfair review, most of her reviews I either agree with what she is saying sometimes I find something cool that she finds annoying. But her 12 inch PowerBook review was very fair and right on the money, because even tho I dont own one, I work in the computer industry and I have heard the exact same thing she said about its shortcommings from other people, One of the ladies where I work bought one and I looked at it the other day and yes the thing is way to hot. Yes the LCD is crap. But instead of jumping on Eugenia and wasting energy and time, Why not go ahead write to Apple gripe and complain and hope they change it. There is nothing Eugenia can do about the Powerbook seeing as tho she doesnt work for Apple computer.





_________________________________

www.geocities.com/kane121975/

640meg of RAM?
by Anonymous on Wed 12th Feb 2003 13:23 UTC

640mb is an unusual configuration: 512+128 i suppose,

i remember in the 80s bringing home the Tandy 1000sx, and upgrading its memory to a whopping 640k of Ram.

640k was the most my tandy pc would accept.

Roberto
by Jay on Wed 12th Feb 2003 14:03 UTC

Roberto, I don't think it was a grudge review. I think it was just a confluence of things that happened - both Eugenia and David both got the PowerBooks. Doing a hardware review was a change of pace in the first place. And then came the storm of controversy about the LCD. So, when they meet in California, they're going to put them side by side. It has been a welcome change of pace. And, being OS News, even a change of pace stirs the pot :-)

http://www.codewarrior.com/MW/Develop/Desktop/Macintosh/Professiona...


What do you mean tools are not available for the Mac OSX.

I am a linux head and I know that CodeWarrior makes a rocking Mac IDE.

It is for C/C++ and Objective C.

For Python look at:

http://www.cwi.nl/~jack/macpython.html

There are others but that is literally my first hit.





The new PB is in a class of its own
by Dimitris on Wed 12th Feb 2003 16:43 UTC

Sure it has its issues but for the money and the size there is NOTHING equivalent. Do some research.

Of course, thinking with one's head instead with one's heart, a factory refurb Thinkpad T23 or HP Omnibook 6100 are bigger but much better made and cheaper (around $1K for a decent box). They won't do decent 3D, or write DVDs or have firewire of course.

The smaller PC notebooks don't come anywhere near the number of features of the new PB, though the screens in IBMs, Toshibas and HPs are way nicer than the PB.

The better Thinkpads have absolutely fantastic keyboards and excellent build quality.

If you need a small, fairly powerful mac though, the new 12" PB is pretty much the only thing you can get.

Replace the drive with an IBM 40GNX and see the thing fly.

D

Mac drone...
by TrueDis on Wed 12th Feb 2003 17:47 UTC

It seems to me that the review went like this:

1) There are many design flaws in this overpriced machine
2) But, it's a Mac, so therefore it must be good

Everyone acts like this is the greatest thing since sliced bread. PC makes have been building small, ultraportable laptops for years. Then Apple comes out with the iBook-renamed-Powerbook and that stupid add campaign and everyone's rushing to buy one ...

David, I think you were fair in your criticisms, but I don't see how it got an 8. Maybe to make yourself feel better about getting ripped off...

Maya
by DB on Wed 12th Feb 2003 18:15 UTC

Has anyone ever tried running MAYA on one of these laptops? Im thinking of purchasing one of these Powerbooks IF they will run MAYA decent. If not i will have to stick with a tower.

OS X crashes
by Bascule on Wed 12th Feb 2003 18:44 UTC

There's a rumour that 10.2.4 will contain fixes for OS X's prebinding tools which I believe are responsible for the OS X crashes everyone has been experiencing.

Someone pointed me to a workaround to disable enforced prebinding entirely. After enabling this workaround, I haven't had my system crash since.

Apple and Reality
by Anonymous on Wed 12th Feb 2003 18:48 UTC

The reason Apple hardware is still close to the purchase price even years later is that Apple hasn't actually progressed much in that time. In a years time, that Dell laptop is totally obsolete, while the PowerBook is no longer rated "fastest", just "faster". It's NOT a good thing that Apples hold their value so long. It means the new ones are barely superior to last years offerings.

Some of you say "I have an IBM P3 800Mhz and it's not any faster than my new PowerBook". Well, duh. Compare the Mighty 1 Ghz PowerBook with the 2 or 3 Ghz Laptops on the PC side. No contest, RISC or not. Not to mention the PC's better cache, bus and memory speed, faster HDs, etc. And Eugenia is right - Apple DOES use cheaper parts in their products. Think about this - if Apples really are as competitive with PC's as you all claim, yet Apple's own financial statements say they make a far greater markup on their products, THE ONLY POSSIBLE EXPLANATION IS THAT THEY USE CHEAPER PARTS!!!

If you guys could look at the information objectively, you'd see that your defence of Apple's business practices only permits them to continue ripping us off, since you are okay with it. They don't ever have to improve or get competitive because you don't CARE about their product quality. You only care that it was made by Apple, and that's enough to get the sale.

And Jesus Christ in a Jumpsuit, Soda makers didn't choose aluminum because it has some magical ability to keep things cool, they chose it because it's very very inexpensive.

And for God sakes, this reviewer is insanely excited about Bluetooth, but doesn't have any bluetooth devices! WTF? Is Apple brainwashing you guys? Tell me, I'll sell my iMac before I turn into a gibbering fanatic too. I understand the guys excited, but unless it's actually USEFUL in a way that regular stuff can't compete with, aren't you wasting your money paying for this stuff?

"aren't you wasting your money paying for this stuff? "
by yoyo on Wed 12th Feb 2003 19:21 UTC

Glad to see your concern for others people finances.
Thats nice and commendable.

But you also write "gibbering fanantic", so I'm confused about your intentions.

re: Screenshot of the Powerbook setup
by gfx on Wed 12th Feb 2003 19:34 UTC

Here is a screenshot of my 12" Powerbook, this is the setup on the screen i see most of the time:
http://img.osnews. com/img/2547/powerbook.png
Safari on the left (thanks for the login tip).


mmm, compared this shot with the same page rendered by IE on my 14inch aldi laptop (running winxp and cleartype enabled) and that one looks a lot nicer, did the .png compression added any blur or is the text rendering in OS-X
that bad...

RE: Screenshot of the Powerbook setup
by Eugenia on Wed 12th Feb 2003 20:19 UTC

It is that bad compared to ClearType, because of all this smoothing going on, and if you have an LCD like the 12" Powerbook's, it gets worse.

screenshots
by yoyo on Wed 12th Feb 2003 20:36 UTC

Hmmm.
Those TV commercials where they show the latest and greatest TVs in action dont look any better than the TV I have.even the HD TV commercials look the same to me.

Re: Apple and Reality
by Jay on Wed 12th Feb 2003 20:44 UTC

Who are you directing your remarks to? You are the one who's all bent out of shape. There's nobody in this thread that has been praising Apple to the skies and saying they can do no wrong. Your comments sound like they should be in some Apple flame war thread. They're just doing something for a change of pace and having some fun.

sorry ....
by yoyo on Wed 12th Feb 2003 21:04 UTC

lame attempt at humor---

I was trying to convey the futility of TV advertisments by television manufactors showing off their great picture quality.

And I was trying to connect that to screenshots on the web.

never mind...sorry.

@CrackedButter
by Brandon Philips on Wed 12th Feb 2003 22:23 UTC

Get a new battery. They dont last forever you know ;) . My laptop gets ~3hrs (IBM T23)

Safari
by Jay on Wed 12th Feb 2003 23:56 UTC

This is OT, but a new beta of Safari is out. Tremendous bug fixes and it is fast, fast, fast!!

Apple and Reality?!
by XnetZERO on Thu 13th Feb 2003 08:01 UTC

Anonymous Coward, you know burning crack like that fries brain cells like you wouldn't believe... But as it appears you have none, keep smoking... I've yet to see a Dell laptop _last_ longer than a year before it falls apart. Hell, I've dropped my iBook more than any laptop should be dropped and it keeps on ticking. It's even been slammed around a few times. Still running. The chincy azz Dells my work gets break if you look at them the wrong way.

You know why PC users upgrade their shiz so much? 'cuase they have to. It isn't made to last and doesn't.

re: only permits them to continue ripping us off,
by Anonymous on Thu 13th Feb 2003 11:45 UTC

apple must have higher margins b/c it is solely responsibile for OS and application r&d, and a smaller market share, which pushes up costs.

yes, apple hardware maybe cheaper, but apple provides a superior UI and application experience.

it is the software, not the hardware that matters, which is why xbox though hardware better than ps2, ps2 far outsells xbox b/c you buy these consoles to play games, not to have a piece of hd.

Accounting
by Anonymous on Thu 13th Feb 2003 14:34 UTC

I'm not complaining about Apple's profit margins; I KNOW they're solely responsible for OS and app R&D, as well as hardware R&D, so they SHOULD make a higher margin on their hardware to recoup their R&D costs. All these facts just prove my point, which is that the price on Apple hardware SHOULD BE very much higher than Dell or IBM or whoever, assuming they use the same quality components. I'm talking DOUBLE. The fact that their prices are similar proves that they are using VASTLY INFERIOR components in their hardware, since they can STILL make a much greater profit margin on their balance sheet, despite having all the extra R&D costs.

The margin is higher
The R&D costs are higher
The sale price is the same
Therefore the component costs must be *much* lower

I like Apples, but I think they may believe in "Style over Substance", which is not the most ethical way to run a hardware company.

Re: accounting
by DJ Jedi Jeff on Thu 13th Feb 2003 18:19 UTC

I disagree. Apple's laptops are a *little* more expensive than comparable Wintel machines. But remember that Windows licenses are fairly expensive for PC manufacturers. The fact that Microsoft sells so many is the reason behind the 80% margin. They haven't really lowered their prices. The extra costs incurred by Apple in OS development probably add up to an extra $40-50 per machine because of the lack of economies of scale. To argue that Apple laptops should cost "double" (and therefore that OS development must cost over $1500 per machine sold) is just ludicrous.

17" powerbook reviews????
by xtantmaxima on Thu 20th Feb 2003 07:42 UTC

I purchased a 17" powerbook a little while ago and I can't find any reviews for it anywhere. I "switched" from the pc world and have several questions as I patiently await my April delivery. First, which version of the superdrive is the computer going to have and what speed will it burn at (i'm hoping 105)? Next, any word on the screen as some of these articles have been stating? Anyone have one and use the ambient light sensor yet, how cool is it?

Biggest complaint so far is the way they ship everything seperate. I now have my warranty and mouse but I'm waiting on the extra a/c adapter, case and computer ;) .

Best part about me switching is that I work for my school as a PC phone consultant and am in the Business school that only supports pc's. The weight, screen size, dvd burner and value got me ($2699 student developer discount). Thanks for the input, this is my first post in Mac world.