Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 26th Jul 2017 20:56 UTC, submitted by Alex
OpenStep, GNUstep

After almost 8 years (we talked about it, of course), a new version of the GNUSTEP live CD has been released - version 2.5, for amd64. The live CD is based on Debian 9, has low hardware requirements, and uses Linux 4.9 with compressed RAM and no systemd. The live CD is a very easy and non-destructive way of testing out and playing with GNUSTEP, a free software implementation of OPENSTEP.

It's been a long, long time since I got to use our glorious *STEP database category. Isn't that one beautiful icon?

Order by: Score:
Come on Thom...
by The123king on Wed 26th Jul 2017 21:01 UTC
The123king
Member since:
2009-05-28

You're just finding articles that fit older and less used database categories now ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE: Come on Thom...
by maxmalkav on Wed 26th Jul 2017 22:33 UTC in reply to "Come on Thom..."
maxmalkav Member since:
2016-01-22

... and there is nothing wrong about it :-D

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Come on Thom...
by General_Edmund_Duke on Thu 27th Jul 2017 00:57 UTC in reply to "RE: Come on Thom..."
General_Edmund_Duke Member since:
2014-05-17

I feel more and more like on old osnews and I love that feeling!

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Come on Thom...
by CATs on Thu 27th Jul 2017 06:14 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Come on Thom..."
CATs Member since:
2017-06-09

Yeah, finally less of that boring smartphone/political/patent crap and more real thing!

Reply Score: 5

RIP Etoile?
by tidux on Thu 27th Jul 2017 02:10 UTC
tidux
Member since:
2011-08-13

Looks like the project died after 2014.

Reply Score: 3

RE: RIP Etoile?
by alexmyczko on Thu 27th Jul 2017 19:16 UTC in reply to "RIP Etoile?"
alexmyczko Member since:
2017-07-27

A lot of Etoile was brought back into GNUstep itself. So GNUstep does have themability, it is supposed to build and run your apps on macOS, and Windows (maybe someone will make a Reactos CD with GNUstep?).

The theming supports Win9x Window styles, and macOS Window styles, see SystemPreferences, look for NSMenuInterfaceStyle.

Reply Score: 2

Sigh
by Darkmage on Thu 27th Jul 2017 04:35 UTC
Darkmage
Member since:
2006-10-20

Still no browser, still no system preferences controls for audio/networking/X11. Still very obscure and minimally useful. I'd really love for this to get picked up by people, but I'm starting to give up on all these cool little projects which are going nowhere. It's a shame, because the developers are lovely people, I'm on the mailing list, but I need to face reality and move on.

Edited 2017-07-27 04:35 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE: Sigh
by moondevil on Thu 27th Jul 2017 07:08 UTC in reply to "Sigh"
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

I also spent some time there on the past, and for a few years I even used AfterStep followed by WindowMaker as my main window managers.

But given that most of their talks at FOSDEM were related to building theme engines, catching up with Panther and they lacked a workable Objective-C 2.x implementation, it was clear it would go nowhere.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Sigh
by alexmyczko on Thu 27th Jul 2017 19:14 UTC in reply to "RE: Sigh"
alexmyczko Member since:
2017-07-27
RE[2]: Sigh
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Fri 28th Jul 2017 14:10 UTC in reply to "RE: Sigh"
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

True. When ever any project starts prioritizing themes and engines of them over real tangible technical progress.... Its a clear sign that death is around the corner ( cough cyanogen cough) .

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Sigh
by heron on Fri 28th Jul 2017 18:59 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Sigh"
heron Member since:
2005-08-07

Who said we did? ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Sigh
by heron on Fri 28th Jul 2017 18:53 UTC in reply to "RE: Sigh"
heron Member since:
2005-08-07

GCC and Clang are responsible for implementing the compiler, not GNUstep. Clang has a workable ObjC2 implementation and works just fine with GNUstep now.

Gregory Casamento

Reply Score: 2

RE: Sigh
by alexmyczko on Thu 27th Jul 2017 19:18 UTC in reply to "Sigh"
alexmyczko Member since:
2017-07-27

Tried cd /Applications and ls there?
SystemPreferences you have. A web browser, no. Is there any *usable* web browser for Linux? I mean besides links (yeah the console one). If you think of Mozilla or Google, please don't ruin my day. The latter is good for PDF viewing. Other than that, both projects are memory leakers. For LibreOffice, OpenOffice I will refer you to: http://www.aiei.ch/gnustep/sun/

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Sigh
by Darkmage on Thu 27th Jul 2017 21:43 UTC in reply to "RE: Sigh"
Darkmage Member since:
2006-10-20

Yeah, and in the 10 years I've been following System Preferences.app there's still no way to set the system volume/sound card options, configure X11, or configure networking. Basic features that Gnome/KDE/Windows/Apple have had for years. This is the problem with these projects. There are enough languages to choose from on Linux/BSD/HURD. Objective-C/Swift isn't compelling enough and hasn't got a large enough base of applications to bother with. It could be different if there was a desktop environment that actually worked and had a cohesive Next-like philosophy. But all there is is a half supported API and a bunch of apps which have functional replacements everywhere else. I know this is negative as heck, but after 10-15 years following this project. It's clear it's going nowhere. It's a shame, because GNUstep actually let you setup the apps to work like Windows/Apple/Nextstep with a single environment variable. Combined with Etoile's menu server you could cobble together something that started to look/feel like OSX. But the terminal.app hasn't even got tabbed views, and there is no web browser which considering the importance of the web these days is pretty big for most people... Anyway the point is, 10 years, almost 0 progress, nothing compelling using it. Just small apps that are barely maintained, and only in the sense that they can start. Even if the project's only goal had been to clone just one of Apple's media apps it would have been a better use of time/manpower.

Edited 2017-07-27 21:51 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Sigh
by heron on Fri 28th Jul 2017 18:56 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Sigh"
heron Member since:
2005-08-07

There are 10 people on the project. You're expecting from GNUstep what has come from other projects which have hundreds of contributors or have the backing of huge companies like RedHat, SuSE, IBM, etc. We are a small set of people who love what we do, cut us a little slack. If you want to help, you're welcome to, but complaining about what we don't have and lurking on the list isn't helping.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Sigh
by The123king on Sun 30th Jul 2017 09:27 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Sigh"
The123king Member since:
2009-05-28

Haiku seems to be doing well enough with a similar number of developers

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Sigh
by judgen on Mon 31st Jul 2017 21:01 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Sigh"
judgen Member since:
2006-07-12

But Haiku has a Alex Dörfler.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Sigh
by CATs on Fri 28th Jul 2017 06:28 UTC in reply to "RE: Sigh"
CATs Member since:
2017-06-09

Is there any *usable* web browser for Linux? I mean besides links (yeah the console one). If you think of Mozilla or Google, please don't ruin my day. The latter is good for PDF viewing. Other than that, both projects are memory leakers.

https://linux.palemoon.org/

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Sigh
by alexmyczko on Fri 28th Jul 2017 11:43 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Sigh"
alexmyczko Member since:
2017-07-27

It needs GTK...

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Sigh
by CATs on Fri 28th Jul 2017 12:51 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Sigh"
CATs Member since:
2017-06-09

It needs GTK...

Not sure what's your problem, but seems like you want a fully functional, usable, flexible browser that would work perfectly and would not need anything else apart from bare Linux kernel.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Sigh
by alexmyczko on Fri 28th Jul 2017 17:45 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Sigh"
alexmyczko Member since:
2017-07-27

I just don't want gtk or qt. gtk simply not for the desaster of developers have whenever there's a major new version, and for gconf disaster with configuration files (worse than windows registry, or at least equally bad).
I've tried gtk1, 2, and 3.

https://webkit.org is nice. It just needs some more work to work and an application (prefereably using #include <AppKit/AppKit.h>). Something like, Safari... I'm fine using links (instead of Mozilla Firefox or Google Chrome or Chromium). It's just quite a few pages don't work because they think everyone needs javascript and CSS. Let's not even get started with Adobe Flash.

A great web page works in links. And still can look great with CSS. That is how HTML was meant to be, see the web consoritum. And the first original web browser had edit functions in (WYSIWYG, remember Display PostScript, on NeXT?), it just never was picked up by netscape, nor others.

Anyways, it's up to anyones choice to use the tool he wants to get accomplished whatever they want to do.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Sigh
by heron on Fri 28th Jul 2017 18:59 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Sigh"
heron Member since:
2005-08-07

It has a GTK theme. Learn about GNUstep maybe you might actually find some things you like.

Reply Score: 1

Imaginary Memory Leaks
by zlynx on Fri 28th Jul 2017 18:36 UTC in reply to "RE: Sigh"
zlynx Member since:
2005-07-20

I don't understand this claim of memory leaks. I've heard people claim it but on every single one of my computers I run Firefox. I've had my work laptop (Fedora 26 now) go for over a month without logging out (suspend to RAM) and Firefox never becomes bloated.

So I can't understand what people are doing to their poor Firefox profile. It must be extensions they install, is all I can imagine.

Or they confuse temporary memory growth with a leak. Sites with heavy Javascript usage do use a lot of RAM and they can in fact continue to use more and more RAM if they keep appending new information to an array, for example. But close the tab and wait for a GC cycle and all that RAM gets cleared.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Sigh
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Mon 31st Jul 2017 13:31 UTC in reply to "RE: Sigh"
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

Well, by that criteria, there aren't any usable web browsers for any platform.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Sigh
by alexmyczko on Fri 28th Jul 2017 11:42 UTC in reply to "Sigh"
alexmyczko Member since:
2017-07-27

True, well for volume control, I wrote VolumeControl, should be integrated into SystemPreferences. But sound on Linux is a whole other thing (OSS, ALSA, PulseAudio), see:

http://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desk
top.current.html#Summary

And for the OOM: https://lwn.net/Articles/104179/

Really GNUstep is about to lift of, after the GSOC 2017 (Web Browser developments API side). And then having it ready with Reactos, and maybe GNU/kFreeBSD, Minix3, Plan9?, GNU/Hurd... It really is a pity the kickstarting didn't work.

Reply Score: 1

A bad start...
by The Lone OSer on Thu 27th Jul 2017 07:02 UTC
The Lone OSer
Member since:
2005-07-11

Well just went to give it a go under virtual pc on my AMD quad core processor and the boot told me it had found I was a 32bit 686 processor and it could not continue... oops... ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE: A bad start...
by henderson101 on Thu 27th Jul 2017 09:01 UTC in reply to "A bad start..."
henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

Virtual PC only supports emulation of a 32 bit processor. Try Virtual Box. This trips up a lot of people.

Our up stream produces up VM's in VirtualPC format for integration testing of services, and so we still need VPC hanging about. It's a crappy VM to be honest. The version that integrates in to Windows 7 is very basic, I always try to use the 2007 distro as this at least runs as a program rather than a half arsed partly integrated Explorer extension. The integrated version only needed to really run XP, so it definitely does not support anything other than 32-bit.

Edited 2017-07-27 09:05 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: A bad start...
by The Lone OSer on Thu 27th Jul 2017 12:40 UTC in reply to "RE: A bad start..."
The Lone OSer Member since:
2005-07-11

LOL, my mistake I did mean virtualbox, havn't used virtual PC for years ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: A bad start...
by Alfman on Fri 28th Jul 2017 13:32 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: A bad start..."
Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

The Lone OSer,

LOL, my mistake I did mean virtualbox, havn't used virtual PC for years.


It worked strait away for me, so there's probably something wrong with your virtualbox and not the live cd. Make sure it's configured for a 64bit guest. The GUI is ancient and there's barely anything installed to show it off so IMHO your not missing too much.

Reply Score: 2

Um, no.
by bryanv on Thu 27th Jul 2017 14:51 UTC
bryanv
Member since:
2005-08-26

Downloaded it, played with it for a frustrating period of about 10 minutes.

Yeah, sorry fellas. It's not for me.

I find there is very little in the way of desktop computing that gets my juices going these days.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Um, no.
by alexmyczko on Thu 27th Jul 2017 19:13 UTC in reply to "Um, no."
alexmyczko Member since:
2017-07-27

As you might have noticed, there's almost no software. Indeed it's meant for developers, as there's git, clang/gcc, emacs, manpages, and GNUstep with Gorm.

Read some docs from /var/www on the CD, and write software, or refer to www.gnustep.org for documentation. Sorry guys, unless you're a Terminal/console user, it's not for you. Unless you want something small, with low hardware requirements, and want to play nethack.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Um, no.
by athird on Fri 28th Jul 2017 09:14 UTC in reply to "RE: Um, no."
athird Member since:
2017-07-28

I seem to spend an awful lot of time making sure we don't break the GNUstep build of Emacs, but the Emacs developers think that nobody uses it. It's nice to see that it's at least making it onto the live CD.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Um, no.
by alexmyczko on Fri 28th Jul 2017 11:45 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Um, no."
alexmyczko Member since:
2017-07-27

Thank you!!!! Adrian did a great job with 8.x/9.x ;)
Well the thing is nobody wants to build it. But I'm sure there would be users if it were there. At least me, would be one user ;)

Reply Score: 1

Amiga?
by jburnett on Thu 27th Jul 2017 16:47 UTC
jburnett
Member since:
2012-03-29

Anybody else notice that the favicon for the GNUSTEP site is the Amiga logo?

Reply Score: 1

Boing Ball
by cybergorf on Thu 27th Jul 2017 17:56 UTC in reply to "Amiga?"
cybergorf Member since:
2008-06-30

Yes it is the Amiga Boing Ball

But its not the GNUSTEP site but the site were the live CD image is hosted - by a Mr. Alex Myczko. Maybe he is a Amiga fan as well?

Reply Score: 1

RE: Boing Ball
by alexmyczko on Thu 27th Jul 2017 19:00 UTC in reply to "Boing Ball"
alexmyczko Member since:
2017-07-27

Obviously I am. And, try ctrl-alt-f1, root, mcedit /usr/bin/amigashelld (edit the shebang line to be /bin/bash instead of /usr/bin/bash) then run amigashell start

I should do the ca: (in /etc/telinit) to catch ctrl-alt-del and cat /usr/share/amigashell.guru

Reply Score: 1

Disappointment
by ThomasFuhringer on Fri 28th Jul 2017 06:35 UTC
ThomasFuhringer
Member since:
2007-01-25

When I saw the article I thought we would see some progress on GNUStep. But the truth it that little or - to my perception - no visible further development has happened.
It is a real pity because from a software architecture point of view, this is a so much better platform than all the other desktop environments we are seeing today. If I was a devoloper I would much rather want to work on this than all the other stuff the industry is heading for today, especially everything that is integrating 'web technologies' into the basic application framework.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Disappointment
by alexmyczko on Fri 28th Jul 2017 11:47 UTC in reply to "Disappointment"
alexmyczko Member since:
2017-07-27

The point is, you don't see the development. wayland suppord is there (just not released yet). And why not step up and learn programming, there's some great tutorials. Even if you dislike Objective-C, learn Swift, and hope for GNUstep swift bindings, REALLY SOON, COMRADE ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE: Disappointment
by yahya on Fri 28th Jul 2017 12:39 UTC in reply to "Disappointment"
yahya Member since:
2007-03-29

When I saw the article I thought we would see some progress on GNUStep. But the truth it that little or - to my perception - no visible further development has happened.


Indeed, the look is unchanged from 10-15 years ago, when we all still expected something awesome to come out of it. As if the whole etoile project came and went without leaving any trace.

I am not at all qualified to judge the technical merits of GNUstep, but usability wise it feels like being catapulted back in time to the first half of the 1990s.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Disappointment
by lproven on Fri 28th Jul 2017 14:39 UTC in reply to "RE: Disappointment"
lproven Member since:
2006-08-23

Why would the look & feel change? NEXTstep was already the best-looking GUI in the world by the end of the 1980s. Nothing has surpassed it yet. So why change it?

Fashions change but classic design doesn't stop being classic.

How many other GUIs have made it into music videos?

http://www.osnews.com/story/10618/Music_Video_Clip_from_the_90s_Fea...

Reply Score: 1

Window Maker
by cybergorf on Fri 28th Jul 2017 17:51 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Disappointment"
cybergorf Member since:
2008-06-30

The problem here is that Window Maker is based on WINGS (Wings Is Not Gnu Step). So the central element of the GUI uses a different widget system, that looks more or less the same, but has its own libraries.

Etoile was addressing this, but the new window manager was never finished

... or was it? "Azalea" is deprecated again and replaced with something new

Edited 2017-07-28 18:01 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Disappointment
by yahya on Sun 30th Jul 2017 07:29 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Disappointment"
yahya Member since:
2007-03-29

Why would the look & feel change? NEXTstep was already the best-looking GUI in the world by the end of the 1980s. Nothing has surpassed it yet. So why change it?


Because it lacks responsiveness and usability.

For me, if it had awesome usability, its look wouldn't be a strong consideration. But really, it doesn't. E.g with most current UIs you have some text input field and if there is a smart algorithm at work under the hood, entering a search term gives you whatever you were looking for in an instant, be it a programme, a document, a contact, an event or a location. Also, connecting a USB stick to my computer causes it to be mounted or at least gives me some visual or audible feedback telling me that the system has detected it. Or I get startup notifications for programmes I have launched, or I have a notification area for all those programmes which use it etc. I don't see any of that it the GNUstep live CD. It really feels very much like when I started using Linux around 18 years ago, with Fvwm and the like. If that's what I want, that's fine, but I don't see how GNUstep gives me any additional benefit there either.

Edited 2017-07-30 07:30 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Disappointment
by walkerdude on Mon 31st Jul 2017 02:47 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Disappointment"
walkerdude Member since:
2017-07-31

I do miss the NeXT interface — used it through college. OS X (er macOS) is OK, but misses much of what was there.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Disappointment
by lproven on Fri 28th Jul 2017 14:30 UTC in reply to "Disappointment"
lproven Member since:
2006-08-23

The bulk of the development is in the libraries. GNUstep is mainly a FOSS re-implementation of the NEXTstep framework -- the Objective-C class libraries used to build NEXTstep (and OS X) apps.

http://www.gnustep.org/

The fact that this means that they have also implemented most of an entire desktop, complete with accessories, seems to be more or less a a happy accident, an unplanned but happy side-effect of the development and testing of the class library framework.

Reply Score: 1