Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 22nd Jan 2018 17:51 UTC
Windows

Microsoft is making a bigger push to keep students and teachers using Windows this week. At the annual Bett education show in London, Microsoft is revealing new Windows 10 and Windows 10 S devices that are priced from just $189. The software giant is also partnering with the BBC, LEGO, NASA, PBS, and Pearson to bring a variety of Mixed Reality and video curricula to schools.

Lenovo has created a $189 100e laptop. It’s based on Intel’s Celeron Apollo Lake chips, so it’s a low-cost netbook essentially, designed for schools. Lenovo is also introducing its 300e, a 2-in-1 laptop with pen support, priced at $279. The new Lenovo devices are joined by two from JP, with a Windows Hello laptop priced at $199 and a pen and touch device at $299. All four laptops will be targeted towards education, designed to convince schools not to switch to Chromebooks.

I'm not sure if these wil persuade schools away from Chromebooks, but assuming non-education customers can get them as well, they may be great little machines for running secondary operating systems on.

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I'm a bit off but...
by franzrogar on Mon 22nd Jan 2018 18:24 UTC
franzrogar
Member since:
2012-05-17

Why on earth would I pay $189 with a low CPU + chunked OS when, for such price, I can buy a second-hand *real* laptop with the full CPU + OS?

This' also applies to Chromebooks.

Reply Score: 7

RE: I'm a bit off but...
by Kroc on Mon 22nd Jan 2018 18:35 UTC in reply to "I'm a bit off but..."
Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

I paid £200 for a second-hand Lenovo X240, Core i5 4200U 1.6-2.3GHz. This is by and far away more powerful than the trash you could buy new for the same price.

*Never* buy the cheapest Windows laptop. It'll perform badly and within two years won't be fast enough to even function (All those Atom netbooks that couldn't even play YouTube videos fast enough...)

Reply Score: 7

RE[2]: I'm a bit off but...
by smashIt on Mon 22nd Jan 2018 19:12 UTC in reply to "RE: I'm a bit off but..."
smashIt Member since:
2005-07-06

I paid £200 for a second-hand Lenovo X240, Core i5 4200U 1.6-2.3GHz. This is by and far away more powerful than the trash you could buy new for the same price.


I got my parents a used T420 for christmas.
For 130€ there is no new laptop that could even come close to it.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: I'm a bit off but...
by echo.ranger on Mon 22nd Jan 2018 20:57 UTC in reply to "RE: I'm a bit off but..."
echo.ranger Member since:
2007-01-17

The lovely aspects of buying corporate off-lease equipment, I have to agree.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: I'm a bit off but...
by flanque on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 06:44 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: I'm a bit off but..."
flanque Member since:
2005-12-15

If only every corporate let you buy the old laptop. Would have snapped up that Macbook Air quick smart!

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: I'm a bit off but...
by Earl C Pottinger on Wed 24th Jan 2018 02:02 UTC in reply to "RE: I'm a bit off but..."
Earl C Pottinger Member since:
2008-07-12

I have an old Toshiba 405B, with Windows 7 it is very slow but works fine playing videos with the latest Haiku-OS installed on a small SSD.

The thing to remember is even the lowest power laptop is way more powerful than the original hardware that we use to run BeOS on.

Edited 2018-01-24 02:03 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: I'm a bit off but...
by Earl C Pottinger on Wed 24th Jan 2018 06:50 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: I'm a bit off but..."
Earl C Pottinger Member since:
2008-07-12

Sorry, it was a Toshiba NB205.

Reply Score: 2

RE: I'm a bit off but...
by shotsman on Mon 22nd Jan 2018 20:14 UTC in reply to "I'm a bit off but..."
shotsman Member since:
2005-07-22

Lock-in ,lock-in, and lock-in
Get them young and used to $10/month subscriptions and they are hooked for life.
Simple really.

Reply Score: 2

RE: I'm a bit off but...
by cranfordio on Mon 22nd Jan 2018 20:58 UTC in reply to "I'm a bit off but..."
cranfordio Member since:
2005-11-10

While individuals can usually find great deals on used laptops it is a lot harder for a school. Not that we can’t find the deals, just that it is hard to find them in the volume you need without having to buy dozens of different models which can add additional problems. I buy ~140 laptops every year, and we are a medium sized private school. I used to work for a district that bought around 5000 laptops per year. But, I still would never buy this. My experience with any laptop that cost less than $500 brand new has always been horrible, at least as far as having them in the hands of middle school kids they are.

Reply Score: 6

RE[2]: I'm a bit off but...
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Mon 22nd Jan 2018 22:06 UTC in reply to "RE: I'm a bit off but..."
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

Did you ever try buying laptops off lease?

I used to help source pcs for my school friends from various online off lease resellers.

They worked out pretty well. Would recommend to any school that wants Windows for some reason. Now, obviously no warentee or service plan existed. So that's not so great, but otherwise they worked out well as expected for windows pcs.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: I'm a bit off but...
by kwan_e on Mon 22nd Jan 2018 23:15 UTC in reply to "RE: I'm a bit off but..."
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

The first question to ask is does laptops actually help with education?

Research says not really.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: I'm a bit off but...
by Adurbe on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 10:32 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: I'm a bit off but..."
Adurbe Member since:
2005-07-06

The reality of the modern work place means that familiarity with working on computers is probably more important than handwriting (which is taught directly).

From simple note taking to any form of document writing. A computer is the go-to device. Yet, we don't teach kids effective typing techniques. In part, this is why RSI is so prevalent in the workplace.

It depends if you consider the role of education is (at least in part) to also prepare you for the workplace or not. Personally, I do.

I would be interested to see the research you are referring to that says it doesn't help though. Always willing to learn after all!

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: I'm a bit off but...
by kwan_e on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 11:54 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: I'm a bit off but..."
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

The reality of the modern work place means that familiarity with working on computers is probably more important than handwriting (which is taught directly).


Deary me, how did all of us who went to school without computers ever coped with getting/keeping/progressing jobs in the modern workplace?

Hint: some things people can learn on their own.

Computers aren't hard to learn, and ironically, if we did a better job of helping students learn to explore stuff on their own, they could adapt to any job. Computers are a distraction, not only to students but to the teaching. Spend the money on the teachers and everything else pays for itself.

From simple note taking to any form of document writing. A computer is the go-to device. Yet, we don't teach kids effective typing techniques. In part, this is why RSI is so prevalent in the workplace.


If anything, simple note taking is horrible on any computer device. Hell, I recently started going back to writing things down on paper because it is much faster to get access to and it aids memory much more than typing.

I suspect RSI is prevalent in the workplace because people are buying stupidly small keyboards with poor feedback. Every electronics store I walk into has mostly those dainty keyboards with poor travel and cramped layouts.

I've worked with mainframe programmers who can "hunt and peck" code on a traditional IBM/Lenovo rubber dome keyboard as fast as anyone touch typing on a dainty Mac keyboard, and they don't develop RSI.

Actually, I think it has to do more with the fact that we don't do as much manual labour as we used to, leading to weakening grip strength across generations.

It depends if you consider the role of education is (at least in part) to also prepare you for the workplace or not. Personally, I do.


How much preparation do you really need to use a computer for "simple note taking" or "document writing"? You only need one hour to teach and learn touch typing at most. Then to use the Word or Excel you can google anything these days. You only really need a day to teach someone how to find the information they need.

I would be interested to see the research you are referring to that says it doesn't help though. Always willing to learn after all!


See my reply to avgalen.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: I'm a bit off but...
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 15:26 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: I'm a bit off but..."
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

There have been many studies that have shown that having computers in the classroom do not help in basic skills learning like math, science, reading comprehension, social studies, etc.

Not disputing that part of it.

However, the rest of your argument is just chock full of personal anecdotes of your learning experience. Some of which is just plainly wrong. As to how to prepare students for the modern workforce that will make heavy use of computers, leave that part up to educators in the field.

Reply Score: 4

RE[6]: I'm a bit off but...
by kwan_e on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 23:09 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: I'm a bit off but..."
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

However, the rest of your argument is just chock full of personal anecdotes of your learning experience.


Which is no different from the state of current practice in education: anecdotes. Just because I use anecdotes doesn't validate other people's anecdotes - they're all anecdotes.

As to how to prepare students for the modern workforce that will make heavy use of computers, leave that part up to educators in the field.


You mean the same educators that are working from anecdotes you hate so much, and implement systems that, I keep quoting: "show no appreciable difference"?

"You're wrong, so we should put our trust in the people who are paid for being wrong instead because that worked out so well".

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: I'm a bit off but...
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Fri 26th Jan 2018 16:00 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: I'm a bit off but..."
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

No, there is actually research in education where they do pilot projects and try to compare the outcomes based on differences in standardized tests.

Even if there wasn't, I'd trust the opinions of practitioners of a craft much more than those that have less experience in the field.

What happens in school systems is not random. Now, in the US at least the quality varies greatly from one state to another and one school district to another and one school to another. But the reasons for that are complex and unfit for osnews style discussion

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: I'm a bit off but...
by avgalen on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 10:54 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: I'm a bit off but..."
avgalen Member since:
2010-09-23

The first question to ask is does laptops actually help with education?

Research says not really.

Citation needed!

It is obvious that computers (laptops/tablets/my-first-sony) can help with education. My son is raised Japanese+Dutch an will go to a Dutch+English kindergarten. At that kindergarten there are also children that use computers to learn Dutch while my son is learning English with most other children from the teacher.
The computer cannot replace the teacher for everything all the time, but it can surely help with education. A computer is also far cheaper (1000 Euro for hardware+software+maintenance per year) than a teacher (60000 Euro per year).

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: I'm a bit off but...
by kwan_e on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 11:20 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: I'm a bit off but..."
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

"The first question to ask is does laptops actually help with education?

Research says not really.

Citation needed!
"

Have you been living under a rock?

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34174796

It is obvious that computers


"Obvious" means nothing, and it says a lot about science education that people still think "obvious" or "makes sense to me" is an adequate substitute for real results.

(laptops/tablets/my-first-sony) can help with education.


Hypothesis does not meet experience.

A computer is also far cheaper (1000 Euro for hardware+software+maintenance per year) than a teacher (60000 Euro per year).


Completely irrelevant. One good teacher can do more than however many laptops you can put in front of a student. A teacher can/should adapt to the student (if only they weren't being forced to teach to the test). Properly training and paying for teachers is much more cost efficient than dumping technology on people.

Edited 2018-01-23 11:20 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: I'm a bit off but...
by avgalen on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 12:47 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: I'm a bit off but..."
avgalen Member since:
2010-09-23

Have you been living under a rock?

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34174796

No, I haven't been living under a rock. I have actually worked in education and have kids that are just starting their education. I also actually read the article and not just the headlines. The main point that article makes is that "Investing heavily in school computers and classroom technology does not improve pupils' performance", however "Students who use computers moderately at school, such as once or twice a week, have 'somewhat better learning outcomes' than students who use computers rarely.
Or as the OECD's education director Andreas Schleicher says:
The findings of the report should not be used as an "excuse" not to use technology, but as a spur to finding a more effective approach.

He gave the example of digital textbooks which can be updated as an example of how online technology could be better than traditional methods.

Mark Chambers, chief executive of Naace, the body supporting the use of computers in schools, said it was unrealistic to think schools should reduce their use of technology.

It is endemic in society now, at home young people will be using technology, there's no way that we should take technology out of schools'


So yes, it is obvious that laptops/tablets/my-first-sony can help with education and that hypothesis does meet experience.

One good teacher can do more than however many laptops you can put in front of a student.
My example was about putting a few students in front of a computer for a bit while the teacher was in front of others. A teacher couldn't do both at the same time so it is obvious that computers can help with education.

This isn't a 1-or-the-other situation. These children get the best education with a well trained teacher that has good tools (books and computers) available.

Properly training and paying for teachers is much more cost efficient than dumping technology on people.

Strawman argument

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: I'm a bit off but...
by kwan_e on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 13:42 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: I'm a bit off but..."
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

I also actually read the article and not just the headlines.


Clearly you didn't.

The main point that article makes is that "Investing heavily in school computers and classroom technology does not improve pupils' performance", however "Students who use computers moderately at school, such as once or twice a week, have 'somewhat better learning outcomes' than students who use computers rarely.


Here's a quote you want to ignore:

"The results show "no appreciable improvements" in reading, mathematics or science in the countries that had invested heavily in information technology"

No appreciable improvements. "Somewhat better" is still leading to no appreciable improvements. Trying to pin your hopes in "somewhat better" is like trying to find the active ingredient in homeopathic remedies.

Here's another choice quote from the OECD education director:

"He said making sure all children have a good grasp of reading and maths is a more effective way to close the gap than "access to hi-tech devices""

Or as the OECD's education director Andreas Schleicher says:
The findings of the report should not be used as an "excuse" not to use technology, but as a spur to finding a more effective approach.


Funny how you quote him as support for your argument. He wouldn't be saying to find a more effective approach if the current approach was already effective, would he? The fact that he has to say we need to find a more effective approach means it's not effective currently. Ironic how we're talking about reading ability and this just proves the point that technology didn't help in your case.

So yes, it is obvious that laptops/tablets/my-first-sony can help with education and that hypothesis does meet experience.


Still no. All the things you listed are things you can do with technology but you haven't shown that they actually help.

To repeat the quote: "no appreciable improvements".

"One good teacher can do more than however many laptops you can put in front of a student.
My example was about putting a few students in front of a computer for a bit while the teacher was in front of others. A teacher couldn't do both at the same time so it is obvious that computers can help with education.

This isn't a 1-or-the-other situation. These children get the best education with a well trained teacher that has good tools (books and computers) available.
"

Actually it is. Because governments are actively denigrating teachers and keep trying to replace them with cheaper technology. They keep wanting to pay teachers less and laway oness, using money as an excuse, but think nothing of throwing money at computers that for students, I repeat the quote:

"show no appreciable improvement".

"Properly training and paying for teachers is much more cost efficient than dumping technology on people.

Strawman argument
"

No it's not. It's the big picture argument. I'm looking at the bigger picture. Your argument of comparing the "sticker price" of a computer versus a teacher was the strawman argument. What were you even thinking trying to make that ridiculous argument?

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: I'm a bit off but...
by Adurbe on Wed 24th Jan 2018 11:44 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: I'm a bit off but..."
Adurbe Member since:
2005-07-06

I thought I would do a bit of my own reading (benefits of working with academic publishers), and the headlines of the article don't particularly match with the academically peer reviewed research;

Technology as a Change Agent in the Classroom
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-0-387-09667-4_9

"Further, the combination of the student “owned” laptops and the transformed classroom environment resulted in sustained gains in writing and problem-solving relative to comparison students. "

Its a modern habit to reference the article which summarises the research (BBC and Co) rather than the actual research and its findings. Have a read, but it doesn't look like the actual research matches your (quite ardent) assertions.

Reply Score: 4

RE[6]: I'm a bit off but...
by avgalen on Wed 24th Jan 2018 16:13 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: I'm a bit off but..."
avgalen Member since:
2010-09-23

Thanks, but I, like many others, don't have access to the actual research (unless I pay 35-85 Euro) so we rely on summaries and other sources. Research is difficult enough to draw unbiased conclusions from. Almost all research will conclude that "children with access to computers have a better education than children without access to computers" which is logical because of the hidden factor of money.

The above mentioned article came from an interview as direct from a reliable source as I could expect. I drew an interesting conclusion from it: "no computers normal, some computer-time better, lots of computer-time worse".
As you could read from the discussion that followed (that I stepped out of because it was getting too heated and doesn't have much to do with the original topic anymore) this conclusion was already debatable.

So I did what most humans will do, I looked at this from personal experience and confirmed my own bias while adjusting it slightly.
(Old me thought lots of computer-time would still be better than no computer time, but some-computer-time is best in both my personal experience and the article)

Reply Score: 3

RE: I'm a bit off but...
by jpkx1984 on Mon 22nd Jan 2018 23:08 UTC in reply to "I'm a bit off but..."
jpkx1984 Member since:
2015-01-06

Long story short: battery life and well.. fresh look.

Reply Score: 2

RE: I'm a bit off but...
by bassbeast on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 00:34 UTC in reply to "I'm a bit off but..."
bassbeast Member since:
2007-11-11

Because it isn't FOR you, its for schools and businesses?

This is why I HATE the "ZOMG Windows S means we won't get a full OS anymore OMG!" FUD because all Windows S is for is to give schools and business users an easy to control option where they don't have to worry about the users infecting the PCs because all the programs are vetted through the Windows Store. this lets them use normal business software (which is nearly all Windows only) and education titles (ditto) without having to worry about malware.

The big difference between Windows S and ChromeOS is you have the option to make it a full OS without losing your programs, something that simply is not possible for ChromeOS which requires you to wipe the drive (no dual boot allowed last I checked) and install one of a handful of Linux distros (can't just install any OS you want) onto its locked down hardware. That means in a couple of years when these units are sent back after their leases are up they can be sold cheaply on the used market and if you want to make it a full Windows 10 laptop? You can change it to full Windows 10 for $50 which is a lot cheaper than the cost of a retail copy.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: I'm a bit off but...
by Alfman on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 07:50 UTC in reply to "RE: I'm a bit off but..."
Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

bassbeast,

Because it isn't FOR you, its for schools and businesses?

This is why I HATE the "ZOMG Windows S means we won't get a full OS anymore OMG!" FUD because all Windows S is for is to give schools and business users an easy to control option where they don't have to worry about the users infecting the PCs because all the programs are vetted through the Windows Store. this lets them use normal business software (which is nearly all Windows only) and education titles (ditto) without having to worry about malware.


I know you hate it, but it is nevertheless a very legitimate criticism. Remember school laptops are being paid for by public tax dollars and not microsoft, they should not be restricted to microsoft or any other corporate control. It's one thing for school administrators to have control, this is completely justified, but it is NEVER going to be ok that microsoft dictates what schools are allowed to run. Frankly I'm tired of people who try to justify this.


The big difference between Windows S and ChromeOS is you have the option to make it a full OS without losing your programs, something that simply is not possible for ChromeOS which requires you to wipe the drive (no dual boot allowed last I checked) and install one of a handful of Linux distros (can't just install any OS you want) onto its locked down hardware. That means in a couple of years when these units are sent back after their leases are up they can be sold cheaply on the used market and if you want to make it a full Windows 10 laptop? You can change it to full Windows 10 for $50 which is a lot cheaper than the cost of a retail copy.


MS simply shouldn't have a say at all what the school does with 3rd party software. This is wrong. I shouldn't have to pay my car manufacturer a single cent for the right to use a 3rd party mechanic, and in the same vein I shouldn't have to pay microsoft for the right to go use 3rd party software!


What would you do if the federal government were forcing the schools to run only government approved software? Or if they imposed a computer use fee for the government to unlock your computer to 3rd party software? You don't have to answer because I know you all to well, you'd be up in arms over it, and rightfully so! But why oh why do you think it's ok for private corporations (microsoft, google, apple) to do the very same thing? Handing corporations this control sets an extremely dangerous precedent. If you cannot be convinced that corporate control over schools/students/teachers/users is bad in it's own right, then at least admit to yourself that as corporations keep building computer jails, these jails have the potential to be regulated by governments seeking to impose control too. Repressive government regimes and dictators must love where microsoft and others are going with this, but even in the US it won't be long before politicians start pushing bills that take advantage of this centralized control that private companies have over our computers. When that day comes, you'll have no right to complain about it...as much as you will hate it, because the truth will be that you were complicit in supporting the developments that led to us being locked down.


And sure, I already know you are going to respond saying this is all all big exaggeration. But if we don't stand up when rights and control are taken away from us gradually, then those changes set the new norms, which become accepted, and over time this is how all of our rights erode.

Edited 2018-01-23 08:08 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: I'm a bit off but...
by avgalen on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 11:08 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: I'm a bit off but..."
avgalen Member since:
2010-09-23

So you went from "Microsoft is adding a locked down version of Windows as an option" to "Dictators will force you to run only the software that they allow you to run"....yes, everyone would be correct to say that you exagerate!

Just because somebody is now making low-fat peanut-butter doesn't mean that the government is going to prevent anyone from eating chocolate-spread. It just means people that would like to buy low-fat peanut-butter now have to choice to do so. More choice is more freedom, not less!

* You do know that you can sideload?
* You do know that Microsoft also makes software that they would love schools to run, but doesn't run on these locked down devices?
* You do know that Microsoft is also making non locked down versions?
* You do know that Microsoft is not the only one making an OS?
* You do know that Microsoft is essentially a tool provider for developers that wants developers to make software instead of limit the development of software?

^^You are not only exagerating, you are paranoid.

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: I'm a bit off but...
by bassbeast on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 11:36 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: I'm a bit off but..."
bassbeast Member since:
2007-11-11

Isn't it just sad? These same ones who sang the praises of the DRMED TO THE 100TH POWER Chromebook (again no dual boot, only a limited number of "approved OSes" can be run) start just slinging FUD and screaming the sky is falling when MSFT sees that some schools and businesses would like an OOTB easy to lock down solution and gives them what they want.

News Flash...Nobody is forcing you to buy this, you can buy a laptop with plain Jane Windows 10 or Linux or BSD if that strikes your fancy, so why all this FUD? Are you REALLY so scared of MSFT that you wet yourself at the thought of them offering an OPTION that Google has offered for how many years now?

That is how a free market works folks, if enough people want a product then multiple companies will try to create that product. Do you think Google created Chromebooks out of the goodness of their little hearts? They did it to get users using their services young, just as Apple did for years with the Macs in schools program.

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: I'm a bit off but...
by Alfman on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 14:59 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: I'm a bit off but..."
Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

bassbeast,

News Flash...Nobody is forcing you to buy this, you can buy a laptop with plain Jane Windows 10 or Linux or BSD if that strikes your fancy, so why all this FUD? Are you REALLY so scared of MSFT that you wet yourself at the thought of them offering an OPTION that Google has offered for how many years now?


But don't you see, this is exactly my point. I know a lot of guys here like to paint things as "google vs microsoft" or "google vs apple", but this misses the bigger picture. *All* of them are taking another inch and justifying it by saying "we're just following their lead". It normalizes the erosion of our rights in the long term, just as I said before. The actions of the industry have to be taken collectively.

That is how a free market works folks, if enough people want a product then multiple companies will try to create that product. Do you think Google created Chromebooks out of the goodness of their little hearts? They did it to get users using their services young, just as Apple did for years with the Macs in schools program.


Sure, there is a need for products, nobody says that's bad in an of itself. What is bad is that these products are being designed to shift the balance of control away from owners and to corporations, that's the whole point here.

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: I'm a bit off but...
by bassbeast on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 23:33 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: I'm a bit off but..."
bassbeast Member since:
2007-11-11

So in other words you are jumping through crazy logic hops because there are some people that WANT this? Are YOU gonna cut an extra 20% of your pay to schools so they can all afford an IT staff to write GPOs and enforce policies that these do OOTB?

This is the free market, news flash NOT EVERY ONE IS AN ADVANCED USER so they don't have the skills to lock down dozens and even hundreds of systems to insure they aren't infected with malware, you know this right? Hell I spent a decade in IT but if I had kids in school age? I'd be seriously tempted to buy one because I wouldn't have to spend half a day writing GPOs to lock the thing down.

The moral of the story? If you do not like it DO NOT BUY IT, we have more choices now that ever! You can buy new systems with Windows, OSX, Linux, BSD, hell you can even buy eComstation and run OS/2 Warp if that suits your fancy, so stop having a heart attack because some people want to actually have a system that isn't at constant risk for malware!

And sorry for the caps, apparently the latest update to Comodo Dragon has pretty much borked the Italic and Bold buttons so I can only use caps to highlight.

Reply Score: 4

RE[7]: I'm a bit off but...
by Alfman on Wed 24th Jan 2018 00:53 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: I'm a bit off but..."
Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

bassbeast,

So in other words you are jumping through crazy logic hops because there are some people that WANT this? Are YOU gonna cut an extra 20% of your pay to schools so they can all afford an IT staff to write GPOs and enforce policies that these do OOTB?



It is so much simpler than you are making it out to be: If an owner wants to stick with microsoft's app store/browser/etc, than great, they'll have all the benefits you speak of. Otherwise it's still wrong for corporations to actively impede the ower's prerogative to go elsewhere for whatever reason they want. Make it easy to reset to factory conditions if they screw something up.


This is the free market, news flash NOT EVERY ONE IS AN ADVANCED USER so they don't have the skills to lock down dozens and even hundreds of systems to insure they aren't infected with malware, you know this right? Hell I spent a decade in IT but if I had kids in school age? I'd be seriously tempted to buy one because I wouldn't have to spend half a day writing GPOs to lock the thing down.


Again, let microsoft set reasonable defaults, but don't impede owners from exercising control & rights over their own machines.

The moral of the story? If you do not like it DO NOT BUY IT, we have more choices now that ever! You can buy new systems with Windows, OSX, Linux, BSD, hell you can even buy eComstation and run OS/2 Warp if that suits your fancy, so stop having a heart attack because some people want to actually have a system that isn't at constant risk for malware!


I agree, owners should be able to install whatever OS they want without vendors locking them out. ;)


And sorry for the caps, apparently the latest update to Comodo Dragon has pretty much borked the Italic and Bold buttons so I can only use caps to highlight.


You know what, today I was fighting with a safari rendering issue on a client's iphone. He was getting frustrated the page was working everywhere except his iphone. Neither firefox nor chrome had the problem (nor safari on ipad oddly enough). But of course, much like our discussion, apple has taken away the owner's choice to install competing browsers on IOS... it sucks where tech is headed. You may not care about corporations taking control, but will you respect that people like me do?

Edited 2018-01-24 00:54 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: I'm a bit off but...
by Alfman on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 14:44 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: I'm a bit off but..."
Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

avgalen,

So you went from "Microsoft is adding a locked down version of Windows as an option" to "Dictators will force you to run only the software that they allow you to run"....yes, everyone would be correct to say that you exagerate!


You say this, and yet this is exactly the process by which we loose our rights. History teaches us that rights have to be fought for, sometimes aggressively. You wouldn't accept a big change all at once, but you DO accept it as hundreds of small incremental changes, it simply goes under your radar but in the meantime the control keeps tightening. It saddens me, but I nevertheless recognize the fact that most people do behave this way.

^^You are not only exagerating, you are paranoid.


No, but I knew some of you would accuse me of that ;) I'm just aware of what technology is capable of in the hands of corporate-governmental institutions that never stop wanting more power. I know it's far more convenient to call me paranoid than to take a good look at how the changes taking shape and our inaction today will affect computer freedoms for our children and grandchildren.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: I'm a bit off but...
by dionicio on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 16:48 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: I'm a bit off but..."
dionicio Member since:
2006-07-12

Some Linux Distros have completely free Ed editions optimized for remote managed.

Kids would have to learn actual computing; Difficult.
Teachers would have to learn a bit of actual remote management ( ;) )!

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: I'm a bit off but...
by dionicio on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 15:16 UTC in reply to "RE: I'm a bit off but..."
dionicio Member since:
2006-07-12

So many subtleties inducting lock-in. But Windows S is about Service. Cheap units are not worth the average geek pulling of hairs, an per-hour tariff.

As long as damage delimited to the stack, worst case amount to reinstall everything (even the BIOS) from the Store and pulling back the users' profiles from the profiles' "cloud". User initiated, Microsoft Managed...

Reply Score: 1

RE: I'm a bit off but...
by calden on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 23:13 UTC in reply to "I'm a bit off but..."
calden Member since:
2012-02-02

Though I agree, buying something like a Thinkpad X240 for around $350, with an i7, 16GB RAM, 240GB SSD and external battery slice would be the better buy for a lot more people.

I still wouldn't give up my new Samsung ChromeBook Pro that I bought opened-box from BestBuy for $480. It's running, ChromeOS, Android and Linux, even Windows 10 when I bring it up though the just awesome Citrix client. The Android apps that I use with it like; Word, VLC, Pinterest, Flipboard, Bamboo, Adobe apps (all of them), SketchBook, etc. Under Linux I'm running the full version of Office using the new version of Wine(awesome), as well as programming, Apache, PHP, Python, Ruby, Perl, MySQL, TomCAT, Java, C+, Android, etc.

I love everything about it, it's size, it's speed, it's display, it's battery life (which is longer than any other tablet I have ever owned), etc. Anyway who say's ChromeOS is useless has zero idea what they are talking about, period. There is absolutely nothing I can't do on this thing that a similar spec'd Windows or OSX machine could do. The input or the way you do something may be different, the desired output or outcome will be one hundred percent identical.

Reply Score: 1

RE: I'm a bit off but...
by Stephen! on Wed 24th Jan 2018 13:27 UTC in reply to "I'm a bit off but..."
Stephen! Member since:
2007-11-24

Why on earth would I pay $189 with a low CPU + chunked OS when, for such price, I can buy a second-hand *real* laptop with the full CPU + OS?


It would probably depend on what your needs are from a computer. Whether it's just something for general use or a need for specific Windows applications and games.

The existence of Chromebooks would seem to work to Microsoft's advantage, considering they've previously been accused of having a monopoly.

Reply Score: 3

Again?
by bnolsen on Mon 22nd Jan 2018 18:48 UTC
bnolsen
Member since:
2006-01-06

Didn't they try this a few years back? Those blue underpowered hp laptops right?

Reply Score: 1

RE: Again?
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Mon 22nd Jan 2018 18:55 UTC in reply to "Again?"
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

HP Stream
http://store.hp.com/us/en/mdp/laptops/stream-notebook-348017--1#!&t...

Those seem to start at $199. So these are slightly cheaper.

Not sure the price difference will change things much. I do have friends administering chromebooks in schools. They absolutely love them. They've replaced both ipads and windows computers in many applications. I don't think they'd be willing to go back to either.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Again?
by bnolsen on Mon 22nd Jan 2018 18:57 UTC in reply to "RE: Again?"
bnolsen Member since:
2006-01-06

My kids all use chromebooks at school. I have 2 chromebooks at home and they get tons of use, my wife and kids use them exclusively.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Again?
by BlueofRainbow on Mon 22nd Jan 2018 22:41 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Again?"
BlueofRainbow Member since:
2009-01-06

There is also a major shift in the applications used for school work.

I have two kids who have been four grades apart going through middle school and high school.

For the oldest, using MS Office was pretty much the expectation for the production of home work.

For the youngest, using Google "Office Equivalent" is pretty much mandatory for the production of home work. Given the amount of typing involved, the notebook form factor is preferable over the tablet form factor.

This is for less than five years difference.....

While end-users may look at the cost per device, schools also have to look at the cost of the supporting infrastructure and its management. Without looking at that aspect, it is difficult to say if Schools which switched to a ChromeOS based infrastructure will consider switching back to a Windows based one.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Again?
by dionicio on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 15:35 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Again?"
dionicio Member since:
2006-07-12

Head start almost lost at USA and Parts of Europa. Microsoft better hurry up with rest of the world. The longer the chain of peoples' WORKS, the higher on inertia.

That's why Spectre & Meltdown are Not the end of x86, in spite of them being so grave.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Again?
by dionicio on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 17:01 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Again?"
dionicio Member since:
2006-07-12

Ah, and about "score" UI. Not here for scores. Enjoying your comments, in whatever path ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Again?
by benoitb on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 08:38 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Again?"
benoitb Member since:
2010-06-29

What are they using the Chromebooks for ?

When I was studying engineering I would be running compilers, Matlab, SolidEdge which I think are not yet available on ChromeOS ?

Before that I didn't really need a laptop for studies in high school.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Again?
by jpkx1984 on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 08:52 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Again?"
jpkx1984 Member since:
2015-01-06

I use my chromebook for software development when out of office. Typically, I log into my desktop machine but if you really want to, it is possible to run "traditional" software directly - ChromeOS is a Linux with Chrome as its UI. When you turn on the developer mode, you gain access to a full terminal (ctrl+alt+t). With a script you may install Debian or Ubuntu userland, including the X server and run compilers, engineering tools etc.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Again?
by grat on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 13:40 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Again?"
grat Member since:
2006-02-02

My kids all use chromebooks at school. I have 2 chromebooks at home and they get tons of use, my wife and kids use them exclusively.


So what happens when Google Alphabet decides ChromeOS is a failure, and changes their cloud to only support Fuscia?

What you're really saying is "My kids use Google Data Centers at school, via a cheap terminal"-- and implied, but not stated, is that Google uses your kids for market research and advertising opportunities.

That functionality will only exist as long as it makes Google money.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Again?
by avgalen on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 11:16 UTC in reply to "RE: Again?"
avgalen Member since:
2010-09-23

It isn't just the hardware. Microsoft has also improved the management and support with things like inTune, AutoPilot, OS-Refresh/OS-Reset, better online software, OS-licenses, etc.

Basically Microsoft is doing everything that they can not to loose the education market. In the US it might be too late because ChromeBooks have gained too much mindshare and marketshare. In the rest of the world ChromeBooks are a rarity that is slowly picking up steam.
ChromeBooks just make a lot of sense for the education market with the best balance of "dumb-terminal" and "local smarts and processing power".

Reply Score: 4

Windows 10 Cardboard Shack edition
by cjcox on Mon 22nd Jan 2018 20:05 UTC
cjcox
Member since:
2006-12-21

Due to the cost of the OS alone, Microsoft has released a new tier for Windows 10 called the "Cardboard Shack" which costs less than that of "Home".

It's rumored to be similar to Home, but without a browser and the notepad app. However calc is still included as a reminder of your "Cardboard Shack" status.

"With our ongoing support of eliminating classes, we are ensuring lower tier people stay put. If we can't force higher tier people to distribute their wealth, we'll just bring them all down."

Reply Score: 4

cjcox Member since:
2006-12-21

A friend of mine pointed out that in Windows 10S, the "S" might stand for Shanty. Food for thought.

Reply Score: 2

judgen Member since:
2006-07-12

Or "shitty"

Reply Score: 1

zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Ehhh, or "school"...

Reply Score: 2

avgalen Member since:
2010-09-23

A friend of mine pointed out that in Windows 10S, the "S" might stand for Shanty. Food for thought.


If that is the kind of foood that you feed your brain your brain is not receiving the nutrition that it needs

Reply Score: 4

dionicio Member since:
2006-07-12

"a song sung by sailors in rhythm with their work."

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shanty

Then why can't stop the interminable publicity? If I'm working? Why they constantly INTERRUPT my rhythm?

Reply Score: 1

Won't fly due to cost...
by TemporalBeing on Mon 22nd Jan 2018 20:42 UTC
TemporalBeing
Member since:
2007-08-22

Sure it's $189 with Win10S; but Win10S is extremely limited so you're basically forced to either move to Linux (yeah!) or shell out more money for an upgrade to Windows which will likely require more resources than the device can support.

Reviewers will tell the real story here...whether or not they recommend upgrading the OS (highly likely unless paid off by Microsoft to say otherwise). SO in this vein, a good review by Thom or someone else here would be awesome to get.

But these aspects will make or break the devices.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Won't fly due to cost...
by avgalen on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 11:27 UTC in reply to "Won't fly due to cost..."
avgalen Member since:
2010-09-23

Sure it's $189 with Win10S; but Win10S is extremely limited so you're basically forced to either move to Linux (yeah!) or shell out more money for an upgrade to Windows which will likely require more resources than the device can support.

Win10S is limited to what Schools need them to run. Schools don't have to shell out more money for an upgrade to Windows. "Regular Windows" doesn't require more resources than "Windows S".
Photoshop probably requires more resources than these devices have, that is why you are supposed to run Photoshop Express on Windows S.

But these aspects will make or break the devices.
No, there effectiveness for schools will make or break these devices (and Windows S).
Saying that "the success of a Windows S device is depending on how well it can be changed into a non-Windows S device" is silly

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Won't fly due to cost...
by TemporalBeing on Wed 24th Jan 2018 05:32 UTC in reply to "RE: Won't fly due to cost..."
TemporalBeing Member since:
2007-08-22

"Sure it's $189 with Win10S; but Win10S is extremely limited so you're basically forced to either move to Linux (yeah!) or shell out more money for an upgrade to Windows which will likely require more resources than the device can support.

Win10S is limited to what Schools need them to run. Schools don't have to shell out more money for an upgrade to Windows. "Regular Windows" doesn't require more resources than "Windows S".
Photoshop probably requires more resources than these devices have, that is why you are supposed to run Photoshop Express on Windows S
"

if you think only running one or two applications at a time is worth it, not having AD control in an enterprise environment, etc...then yeah I guess Win10 S is okay for schools...

But any school that uses Windows is going to have an AD setup to manage users, patches, etc - so no, Win10 S isn't sufficient. But then, they won't be relying on what comes on it - they'll be installing from their Educational Volume License that is costing them a ton of money each year.

But these aspects will make or break the devices.
No, there effectiveness for schools will make or break these devices (and Windows S).
Saying that "the success of a Windows S device is depending on how well it can be changed into a non-Windows S device" is silly [/q]

These devices are not effective for schools; their target audience won't be educational markets - it'll be home users ultimately, and may be small businesses.

Sure, they'll talk it up to education, but educators won't take 'em.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Won't fly due to cost...
by avgalen on Wed 24th Jan 2018 14:06 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Won't fly due to cost..."
avgalen Member since:
2010-09-23

But any school that uses Windows is going to have an AD setup to manage users, patches, etc - so no, Win10 S isn't sufficient

Windows 10 S is a variation of Windows 10 Prof and can be AD-joined or AzureAD-joined.

These devices are not effective for schools; their target audience won't be educational markets - it'll be home users ultimately, and may be small businesses.

Sure, they'll talk it up to education, but educators won't take 'em.

I work for several educators that are taking them, both on their current devices and on new devices. It is too early to tell if they are going to be effective for schools but at least the (some?) educators seem to agree that Windows 10 S is a better fit for education than Windows 10 Pro

Reply Score: 4

TemporalBeing Member since:
2007-08-22

"But any school that uses Windows is going to have an AD setup to manage users, patches, etc - so no, Win10 S isn't sufficient

Windows 10 S is a variation of Windows 10 Prof and can be AD-joined or AzureAD-joined.
" [/q]

Win10 Home is a variation of Win10 Professional; yet it cannot join an AD. Win 10 S is a more feature limited than Win 10 Home last I heard.

"These devices are not effective for schools; their target audience won't be educational markets - it'll be home users ultimately, and may be small businesses.

Sure, they'll talk it up to education, but educators won't take 'em.

I work for several educators that are taking them, both on their current devices and on new devices. It is too early to tell if they are going to be effective for schools but at least the (some?) educators seem to agree that Windows 10 S is a better fit for education than Windows 10 Pro
"

Most likely a bunch of managers look at the price and what it says on paper about Win10 S and go "oh, that looks good". But wait until they actually get the systems and they feel slow and unresponsive to their users and the features that are actually needed to make it work as desired and integrate into the district's networks just aren't there b/c that'll most likely be the reality.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Won't fly due to cost...
by dionicio on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 16:12 UTC in reply to "Won't fly due to cost..."
dionicio Member since:
2006-07-12

Stores will not fire up at rest of the world until micro-payments conundrum resolved. (That won't come from financing world).

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Won't fly due to cost...
by dionicio on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 17:15 UTC in reply to "RE: Won't fly due to cost..."
dionicio Member since:
2006-07-12

Bought at the corner's drugstore XBox Cards, Maybe? As working DEBIT?

From That point of view, Microsoft is already a Giant on CREATING plastic money.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Won't fly due to cost...
by zima on Thu 25th Jan 2018 20:58 UTC in reply to "Won't fly due to cost..."
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

shell out more money for an upgrade to Windows which will likely require more resources than the device can support.

Why do you even think "full" Windows would require more resources? Under the hood it's exactly the same OS...

Reply Score: 3

Windows 10s crippled
by Alfman on Mon 22nd Jan 2018 22:26 UTC
Alfman
Member since:
2011-01-28

Thom Holwerda,

I'm not sure if these wil persuade schools away from Chromebooks, but assuming non-education customers can get them as well, they may be great little machines for running secondary operating systems on.


Why didn't you cite your previous article warning about how crippled win10s is?

http://www.osnews.com/story/29796/Windows_10_S_default_browser_sear...


People who buy this under the impression that it will run their normal windows apps will be disappointed. Given the loads of restrictions microsoft put on this thing, I wouldn't make the assumption that you can run a secondary operating system on it either without confirmation first. Owners are probably blocked from doing that.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/2/15506378/microsoft-windows-10-s-os...
Microsoft is introducing a new version of Windows 10 today: Windows 10 S. It's essentially Microsoft's answer to Chrome OS, to simplify Windows for low-end hardware and in particular, the education market. “Everything that runs on Windows 10 S is downloaded from the Windows Store,” says Microsoft’s Windows chief Terry Myerson. That doesn't mean that desktop apps won't run on this version of Windows 10, but they'll need to be specially packaged and listed in the Windows Store.


Edited 2018-01-22 22:32 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: Windows 10s crippled
by dionicio on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 16:39 UTC in reply to "Windows 10s crippled"
dionicio Member since:
2006-07-12

"but they'll need to be specially packaged and listed in the Windows Store. "

Specially, buy not hardly: My favorite quick image manger at Windows Land:

http://irfanview.info/

Having to go through the freebies section of the Store is about CHEAP oversight on security (not even evolving compliance as in Apple and to some point in Android). Has to be this way because Microsoft is about Works' Paths (and habits).

Reply Score: 2

RE: Windows 10s crippled
by dionicio on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 17:37 UTC in reply to "Windows 10s crippled"
dionicio Member since:
2006-07-12

" I wouldn't make the assumption that you can run a secondary operating system on it either without confirmation first."

If well understanding the philosophy here, truth is the opposite: On Windows S you're always running applications from a sand-boxed secondary OS.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Windows 10s crippled
by dionicio on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 18:14 UTC in reply to "Windows 10s crippled"
dionicio Member since:
2006-07-12

Alf, got your idea, your concept: Ownership.
I own my documents, even if I doubt about any of them digital being private.

Even Stallman is having problems with privacy, for sure. He and his Chinese CPU.

We have a path. But not for everyone. Not for my oldies specially. Neither my impatient Daughter.

Lots of problems at Microsoft land. But as long as providing trustful and useful OPEN product documents, open output, will keep considering them, as SOLUTION providers.

Reply Score: 1

market cannibalization
by bnolsen on Mon 22nd Jan 2018 22:29 UTC
bnolsen
Member since:
2006-01-06

I've always heard the saying "cannibalize your own market before someone else does it for you". Seems like MS insists on protecting it's primary cash cow OS by releasing artificial crippleware. I'm not seeing how this is going to be some smashing success, especially if there is no alternative to the ease of management that chromebooks bring.

Edited 2018-01-22 22:29 UTC

Reply Score: 1

Comment by judgen
by judgen on Mon 22nd Jan 2018 22:59 UTC
judgen
Member since:
2006-07-12

Windows 10 is an utter failiure. Vulkan titles are cropping up and DX is losing their hold. Noone wants windows 10, it is a forced upgrade.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Comment by judgen
by moondevil on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 09:42 UTC in reply to "Comment by judgen"
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

Which games I wonder, if you care about Vulkan, better switch to GNU/Linux for them.

Vulkan is never going to be supported on Apple platforms, other than via a translation layer.

On Windows, Vulkan is only available via the legacy OpenGL ICD drivers for desktop apps. Sandboxed apps from the store can only use DirectX.

On Android it is an optional 3D API for devices having Android 7.0 or newer. So given the way updates work, very few studios care about it.

XBox and PS4, it won't happen given DirectX 12 and LibGCNM.

Leaves Switch, but Nintendo isn't also fully sure, hence why the main 3D API is actually NVN and not Vulkan.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Comment by judgen
by avgalen on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 11:36 UTC in reply to "Comment by judgen"
avgalen Member since:
2010-09-23

Windows 10 is an utter failiure. Vulkan titles are cropping up and DX is losing their hold. Noone wants windows 10, it is a forced upgrade.

Hi, I am noone. I far prefer Windows 10 to Windows 7/8/8.1 and for most purposes I also prefer it to Linux or OSX. So does almost everyone I know

2% of my company prefers Windows 7, the rest prefers OSX, Linux or Windows 10. Nobody prefers 10S over 10 at my company, but a lot of people love the option of "Install regular Windows 10, add drivers and a few programs, turn-on the 'only install apps from the store'"

Reply Score: 3

RE: Comment by judgen
by grat on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 13:43 UTC in reply to "Comment by judgen"
grat Member since:
2006-02-02

Yeah-- 600 million installed devices. Microsoft should be so ashamed of their failure.

Reply Score: 4

Linux?
by filmamigo on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 00:33 UTC
filmamigo
Member since:
2010-01-12

I hope folks have better luck putting Linux on a Lenovo 100e than I have had on a Lenovo 100s.

All I wanted was a super light writing machine - the little Lenovo totally fit the need, and for $170 Canadian was priced right. I wanted something with more utility than an Alphasmart, and more portable than an off-lease laptop.

I’m making due with the included Windows 10 but would rather be running Ubuntu...

Edited 2018-01-23 00:34 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE: Linux?
by unclefester on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 03:20 UTC in reply to "Linux?"
unclefester Member since:
2007-01-13

The 100S was the spawn of Satan. I bought one to run Linux. Then I discovered to locked bootloader. So no possibility to run Linux.

Just after the warranty expired it shat itself during an upgrade and got stuck in an an infinite loop during boot up.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Linux?
by dionicio on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 18:43 UTC in reply to "RE: Linux?"
dionicio Member since:
2006-07-12

Refresh UEFI. From here Rescue disk: check memory, check disk health. If problem on the stack, all should go smooth from here (on Windows, of course).

These things are intended to be Windows locked! Quite a bet, yours.

Reply Score: 1

2 hours
by CaptainN- on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 03:44 UTC
CaptainN-
Member since:
2005-07-07

I spent two hours at the Doc's office, while 4 nurses tried to get a machine to work, when Windows wouldn't recognize it while plugged in (two different machines, two different devices). It reminded me of when I move my printer cable from one USB port on my Windows machine, to another. IT REINSTALL THE DRIVERS! Slowly. Linux and OSX on the same machine never have a problem like that (not saying it would be better with this medical device - but anecdotally, it's easy to believe it would).

$200 is too much for a Windows device.

Reply Score: 1

RE: 2 hours
by ahferroin7 on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 13:18 UTC in reply to "2 hours"
ahferroin7 Member since:
2015-10-30

Considering the hardware in question, you're not really paying for Windows, just for the hardware, and it is essentially 200 USD of hardware. The machines would likely retail for closer to 300 USD in normal circumstances when accounting for the markup from the OEM and the cost of Windows.

Reply Score: 3

RE: 2 hours
by grat on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 14:05 UTC in reply to "2 hours"
grat Member since:
2006-02-02

Technically, it's not reinstalling the device, it's mapping that device driver to that USB port. Yes, it's a bit silly, but that's how Microsoft implemented their idea of Plug-n-Play.

Medical devices in general are some of the worst written device drivers and poorest software I have ever encountered.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: 2 hours
by CaptainN- on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 18:22 UTC in reply to "RE: 2 hours"
CaptainN- Member since:
2005-07-07

The user experience is the same. It takes ages - and the feed back you get from Windows is identical to installing drivers, just from moving the damned wire from one port to another (and often I end up with multiple copies of the printer in my preferences - what even is that?!!)

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: 2 hours
by CaptainN- on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 18:58 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: 2 hours"
CaptainN- Member since:
2005-07-07

The real sad part of all this - is that it has actually gotten WORSE in more recent versions of Windows. Don't get me started on Windows networking...

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: 2 hours
by grat on Wed 24th Jan 2018 04:27 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: 2 hours"
grat Member since:
2006-02-02

I disagree. I've been doing Windows desktop management since Windows 3.10, and I assure you-- it's never been this good.

The days of requiring a pretty savvy admin to repair the damage done by plugging an unknown USB device into a computer *before* the drivers were installed are largely gone.

Similarly, networking is mostly plug in play-- NDIS stacks, real mode drivers, and the pesky 3Com 3C905 driver that would only work the *second* time you installed it-- Those are in the distant past.

I honestly don't remember the last time I had a networking problem with windows that wasn't due to a hardware failure.

Outside of UI design, Windows has gone from strength to strength since Windows 7.

The caveat, here though, is the medical and scientific device community that still thinks it's writing code for Windows XP. Their drivers tend to be insecure piles of crap that require ludicrous rights, and obey none of the Windows standards.

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: 2 hours
by avgalen on Wed 24th Jan 2018 14:20 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: 2 hours"
avgalen Member since:
2010-09-23

I just plugged a new printer into a usb-port. I didn't do anything and it was installed and had printed a testpage in under 30 seconds.
I moved the printer to another usb-port, it did indeed do the silly "setting up device" but it didn't do any driver installation and it printed a testpage within 15 seconds.

Now compare that to installing the driver + 10 unneeded programs from the manufacturer CD-Rom that took more than 30 minutes in the past and installed an old broken Windows 98 driver on XP.

Networking and network-printers have also greatly improved with every Windows version and since Windows 10 I can now add-and-remove 3rd party VPN software without being afraid it will break my networking.

Reply Score: 4

RE: 2 hours
by dionicio on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 18:53 UTC in reply to "2 hours"
dionicio Member since:
2006-07-12

This is an ages stupidity on Windows. Ask the nurses their nail paint, and mark both male&female connectors at the back of the damn printer/scanner/device.

Next time won't be 2 hours.

-"Who's kid you said had the admin pswd?

Edited 2018-01-23 18:56 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: 2 hours
by CaptainN- on Tue 23rd Jan 2018 18:56 UTC in reply to "RE: 2 hours"
CaptainN- Member since:
2005-07-07

They didn't do anything wrong. The system just doesn't work well. One of the problems was that Windows had been updated the night before. They had restarted the machine, but they are unaware that with Windows, you have restart multiple times to silently finish the updates, and that it takes forever to run those updates. No user should be expected to understand the silent workings of Windows.

IT certainly deserves some blame - they tried two machines, and they were running two different versions of Windows. One was running Windows 7. None of this is the fault of the nurses, and it's entirely inappropriate to blame any of it on them.

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